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Street sweeper sacked over Acknowledgment of Country · The Front

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  Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.
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  Speaker 1: You can read the latest world news right now at
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  Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot AU. A storm has blown
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  Speaker 1: up over a Melbourne suburban council sacking a street sweeper
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  Speaker 1: who objected to an acknowledgment of country at a toolbox meeting.
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  Speaker 1: The council a Q used Shawn Turner of serious misconduct,
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  Speaker 1: but the Fair Work Commission says he was unfairly dismissed.
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  Speaker 1: Today what are you allowed to say or think at
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  Speaker 1: work these days? From early morning in the quiet northern
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  Speaker 1: suburbs of Melbourne, council staff who keep our streets clean
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  Speaker 1: gather for regular meetings to discuss the day's order of
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  Speaker 1: business rubbish, potholes, gutters, drains. But when a recent meeting
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  Speaker 1: commenced with an acknowledgment of country the local traditional owners
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  Speaker 1: of the Warunjurie Wolverine people, one of the blokes who
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  Speaker 1: drives a street sweeping truck, Shawn Turner, spoke up.
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  Speaker 2: He said, are you joking why we're doing this?
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  Speaker 3: And he said if we need to be thanking anyone,
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  Speaker 3: it's the people who have worn the uniform and for
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  Speaker 3: our country to keep us free.
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  Speaker 1: That's you and Hannon. He's the workplace editor at The
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  Speaker 1: Australian and he's broken this worry about Turner, who was
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  Speaker 1: sacked for what he said at that meeting.
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  Speaker 3: The issue was taken up the chain to the council
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  Speaker 3: and there was a complaint made about mister Turner's behavior.
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  Speaker 3: There was an investigation against mister Turner in relation to
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  Speaker 3: alleged breaches of the Council's Code of Conduct and its
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  Speaker 3: equal opportunity policy, and during that investigation he told the
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  Speaker 3: two female managers who were investigating the claim that this
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  Speaker 3: is getting out of hand. In relation to the acknowledgement
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  Speaker 3: of country.
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  Speaker 2: People are losing it.
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  Speaker 3: It's now being done at the opening of a postage stamp.
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  Speaker 3: I don't object to the acknowledgment of the country being done,
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  Speaker 3: but i'd pre further have the option to be able
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  Speaker 3: to walk out when it's being done.
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  Speaker 1: Turner's employer, the labor in Green's heavy Daraban City Council,
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  Speaker 1: accused him of serious misconduct. He was summoned to a
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  Speaker 1: meeting with managers where who has offered the opportunity to
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  Speaker 1: bring a support person. Turner, who says he has Aboriginal
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  Speaker 1: friends and relatives, brought an indigenous supporter.
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  Speaker 3: It actually trained some Aboriginal workers on the job. So
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  Speaker 3: he said, this has nothing to do with any alleged racism.
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  Speaker 2: This is just about his freedom of speech.
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  Speaker 3: And during the meeting he was quite robust in the
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  Speaker 3: way he was answering questions. There was a funny exchange
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  Speaker 3: in the commission proceedings where he was talking about his
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  Speaker 3: character and he said, oh, people say I'm frank, and
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  Speaker 3: one of the reasons I'm quite forthwright is that I'm
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  Speaker 3: half deaf, and so people interpret that's a certain way.
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  Speaker 3: But he said the two investigators believed that he was
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  Speaker 3: being quite offensive in his comments, and after the meeting
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  Speaker 3: they independently rang the Indigenous support person to apologize on
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  Speaker 3: mister Turner's behalf, even though the Indigenous support person had
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  Speaker 3: taken no offense whatsoever. So that would sort of been
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  Speaker 3: an illustration of the political sensitivities here that are being
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  Speaker 3: undertaken by the cancel.
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  Speaker 1: So there were differing accounts of exactly how mister Turner
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  Speaker 1: expressed himself at that first Toolbox meeting. The Council said
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  Speaker 1: that he had said that Aboriginal and Torrestrad Island too
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  Speaker 1: people do not deserve an acknowledgment at the start of meetings.
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  Speaker 1: He denied, saying that didn't he that's right.
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  Speaker 3: So in the charges that were put against him for
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  Speaker 3: the breaches of the Code of Conduct, there was an
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  Speaker 3: alleged that he said the acknowledgment was not necessary and
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  Speaker 3: that Aboriginal Toastrada and the people did not deserve any
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  Speaker 3: acknowledgement at the start of meetings point blank.
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  Speaker 2: It also cited some derogatory.
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  Speaker 3: Comments he made about another colleague, but the commission found
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  Speaker 3: and mister Turner insisted that he didn't make those comments
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  Speaker 3: at all, they weren't to sweeping comments, they weren't disrespectful, sarcastical,
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  Speaker 3: or aggressive. And essentially what he said was if anyone
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  Speaker 3: was to be acknowledged or thanked at a meeting, it
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  Speaker 3: should be the servicemen and women who had fought for
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  Speaker 3: this country. They talked about the fact that he said that,
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  Speaker 3: I don't think it should be how at every meeting.
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  Speaker 3: I want the courtesy of being able to walk out
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  Speaker 3: of those meetings, so I don't object to you doing
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  Speaker 3: and I just don't want to be there.
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  Speaker 1: The Fair Work Commission found Turner had been wrongfully dismissed
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  Speaker 1: and rejected the council's claim that he'd been disrespectful or aggressive.
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  Speaker 1: Mister Turner wants his job back. How did that go?
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  Speaker 3: Mister Turner believes he should be able to go back
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  Speaker 3: to his job. If that can't be worked through in
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  Speaker 3: subsequent commission proceedings, then he'll be awarded a certain amount
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  Speaker 3: of compensation, which sort of looks at how much money
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  Speaker 3: he's lost since he's lost his job, and also in
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  Speaker 3: terms of the conduct.
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  Speaker 2: Of the employer.
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  Speaker 1: He was represented at the hearing by his union, which
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  Speaker 1: union is that Ewan.
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  Speaker 2: That's the Australian Services Union.
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  Speaker 3: So I think generally the union movement it would be
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  Speaker 3: supportive of acknowledgment of the country, Welcome the Country ceremonies.
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  Speaker 3: I think where the issue is here is where they
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  Speaker 3: also believe and I think the right of members to
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  Speaker 3: disagree with that. So where it gets into a situation
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  Speaker 3: where an employer takes adverse action against the worker sacks them,
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  Speaker 3: they're going to be coming in there first to represent
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  Speaker 3: their members rather than sort of prioritizing any sort of
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  Speaker 3: political belief I think.
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  Speaker 1: So we've seen another high profile case in recent days
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  Speaker 1: where a union, the Media, Entertainment and Arts Alliance, was
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  Speaker 1: supporting a worker who said that she'd been sacked for
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  Speaker 1: having an opinion. That's Antoinette Latouffe, who is a casual
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  Speaker 1: presenter at the ABC. She lost some shifts after posting
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  Speaker 1: about the war in Gaza, and the Federal Court has
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  Speaker 1: found that she was unlawfully terminated for holding a political opinion.
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  Speaker 1: In this matter, the matter of Sean Turner, the Fair
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  Speaker 1: Work Commission said that expressing his opinion about acknowledgment of
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  Speaker 1: country did not constitute a valid reason for dismissal. So
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  Speaker 1: you and how do we marry those two things up,
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  Speaker 1: and what do you think think is the situation in
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  Speaker 1: a workplace? Now? How free are Australian workers to express
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  Speaker 1: a political opinion or to hold one?
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  Speaker 2: Well?
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  Speaker 3: I think in the case of Sean Turner, this was
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  Speaker 3: a case of a botched, unfair dismissal where I spoke
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  Speaker 3: to some prominent legal lawyers this morning who said this
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  Speaker 3: is a case studying and how not to handle a dismissal.
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  Speaker 3: They say they don't think it sets a precedent in
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  Speaker 3: relation to acknowledgment a country and the right to express
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  Speaker 3: political opinion or free speech. It's more about the circumstances
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  Speaker 3: of the particular case, and in this case, every step
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  Speaker 3: along the way the employer really hasn't handled it properly.
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  Speaker 3: So that's why the Farewek Commission was able to sort
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  Speaker 3: of lay out all the reasons why he had been
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  Speaker 3: treated unfairly.
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  Speaker 1: That's similar to the Federal court finding about Antoinette le toof,
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  Speaker 1: isn't it where the ABC was found not to have
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  Speaker 1: lived up to its own procedures of giving her a
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  Speaker 1: fair chance to defend herself.
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  Speaker 2: That's right.
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  Speaker 3: So I think both these cases go to the issue
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  Speaker 3: of people expressing opinions and how it intertwines with companies
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  Speaker 3: brand reputation or in the ABC's case, brand reputation or
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  Speaker 3: and how that intertwines with companies in social media policies,
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  Speaker 3: and what can be done in the age of social
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  Speaker 3: media when you express an opinion and companies trying to
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  Speaker 3: enforce sort of tough social media guidelines and people and
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  Speaker 3: where that encroaches them people's public opinions and right to
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  Speaker 3: freedom of expression, and where the line is drawn between
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  Speaker 3: the employer's rights and the employees' rights to express an opinion.
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  Speaker 1: Coming up, So what do Australians really think about acknowledgments
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  Speaker 1: of country? You and you talk to everybody in the
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  Speaker 1: industrial sector, from unions to bosses, to the government to
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  Speaker 1: the opposition. There was a bit of an attempt at
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  Speaker 1: the last federal election by Peter Dutton to bring welcome
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  Speaker 1: to country or people perceived its being a bit over
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  Speaker 1: welcomes to country. He tried to make that an issue
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  Speaker 1: at the election. That didn't work. What's your sense from
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  Speaker 1: talking to people across workplaces of how hot this is
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  Speaker 1: is an issue?
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  Speaker 3: Ollo it's certainly a big talking point across media and
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  Speaker 3: you listen to talkback radio.
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  Speaker 2: You certainly heard it talked about a lot.
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  Speaker 3: You can see from the reaction to our readers to
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  Speaker 3: the story today that it's a big discussion point. I
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  Speaker 3: think there needs to be a balance strike about when
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  Speaker 3: you do acknowledgment of country. I think in this case,
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  Speaker 3: this work it doesn't object to acknowledgement of the country
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  Speaker 3: per se, but it's about the question of whether it
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  Speaker 3: goes too far, whether it's necessary all the time. So
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  Speaker 3: in the case that you know, with this council, for example,
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  Speaker 3: their policy is to have it with every meeting.
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  Speaker 2: And I've had people contact me today saying.
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  Speaker 3: We have seven eight meetings a day where we have
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  Speaker 3: to do acknowledgment in the country, and they think that
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  Speaker 3: probably goes too far. So you've got to I think
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  Speaker 3: you've got to strike the balance right, be respectful to
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  Speaker 3: Aboriginal trial State Orleans, but on the same time, don't
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  Speaker 3: overdo it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And do you think we are kind of landing
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  Speaker 1: at some sensible place. There are there organizations that are
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  Speaker 1: reducing it to be just at big meetings where it's
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  Speaker 1: a whole workforce, or do you see it kind of everywhere.
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  Speaker 2: I think it's a pretty contested space.
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  Speaker 3: I think there are some organizations who probably do overdo it,
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  Speaker 3: and then there are some who go the other way.
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  Speaker 3: So I think there should be an ability for employees
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  Speaker 3: and employees probably to have a discussion about it to
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  Speaker 3: work out a sensible policy. I mean mister Turner's argument
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  Speaker 3: was that it should be done in a sizeable significant events.
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  Speaker 2: Including when there are international visitors.
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  Speaker 3: You see, there has been like in Melbourne, for example,
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  Speaker 3: there was a lot of discussion about the AFL and
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  Speaker 3: the AFL being too politically woken, politically correct and having
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  Speaker 3: acknowledgment of countries and welcome the country, and there was
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  Speaker 3: a bit of a backlash there's by some sections of
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  Speaker 3: the community. But I've been at football games when there's
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  Speaker 3: been acknowledgement and country and the whole crowd we're talking
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  Speaker 3: about eighty thousand people will.
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  Speaker 2: Stand up and applaud in support of those people.
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  Speaker 3: So I think there's a contested position amongst the community there.
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  Speaker 1: Would it be fair to say that acknowledgments don't belong
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  Speaker 1: at toolbox meetings of street sweepers at suburban city councils.
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  Speaker 3: I think what they did in this case is that
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  Speaker 3: they didn't give anyone a full warning or discussion about it.
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  Speaker 3: So the fact that they didn't follow their process, and
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  Speaker 3: they seem to be very big on everyone following a process,
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  Speaker 3: whether it be equal opportunity or these policies, they have
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  Speaker 3: the fact that they didn't do that and just pries
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  Speaker 3: the workers, and then it led to the snowballing effect,
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  Speaker 3: which suggests that they probably could have another review of
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  Speaker 3: their own policies.
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  Speaker 1: You and Hannon is The Australian's workplace editor. He breaks
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: all the big yarns and he talks to absolutely everyone.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: You can follow his reporting by joining ours subscribers at
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  Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot au