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ANOTHER player in Natalee Holloway's disappearance DEAD · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:07
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel
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Speaker 1: one thirty two. It just never ends. It's amazing how crimes,
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Speaker 1: violent crimes have ripple effects that go on and on
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Speaker 1: and on for years. And this case is no different
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Speaker 1: from the abduction and murder still unresolved of a beautiful
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Speaker 1: American girl on spring Break, Natalie Holloway. Then comes Tausiana,
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Speaker 1: Florida's another murder and now a third bloody death stemming
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Speaker 1: out of the Natalie Holloway debacle. I Nancy Grace, this
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Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. It
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Speaker 1: all starts right here. Listen, John Ludwig, friend of your Vanderslute, John,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us, joining us to not
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Speaker 1: exclusively out of d C. Your a friend of yourn Vanderslouts.
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Speaker 1: Are you surprised that he's actually played guilty to murder? Well,
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Speaker 1: he really didn't have a choice in this situation. Uh
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Speaker 1: so I'm just hoping for the best. Well, what do
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Speaker 1: you mean he didn't have a choice. I mean, even
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Speaker 1: I can't dispute the evidence he obviously murdered her. Uh
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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it wasn't provoked, and he I
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Speaker 1: believe he did a postmatic stress syndrome. But what do
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Speaker 1: you mean provoked? You think Stephanie Tassiana provoked your Vanderslut
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Speaker 1: into murdering her? What do you mean by that? I
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Speaker 1: do believe so if she got the email and figured
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Speaker 1: out he was involved in Natalie stuff, she should have
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Speaker 1: just immediately left the room and not confronted him. But
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Speaker 1: how did that provoke him? That she said, WHOA? Are
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Speaker 1: you the one that people believe kill Natalie? How did
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Speaker 1: that provoke him into murder? It enraged him obviously, so
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Speaker 1: she she shouldn't have done that. I don't think she
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Speaker 1: shouldn't have done that, Okay, Johnick No, But do do
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Speaker 1: you do you realize is how crazy you sund right
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Speaker 1: now that she basically deserved the murder because she said, whoa,
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Speaker 1: you're the guy they suspect that murdered Natalie Holloway, that
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Speaker 1: she shouldn't have said anything, that it's her fault she
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Speaker 1: didn't leave the hotel room. Do you realize how crazy
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Speaker 1: you sound? I'm not saying she deserved it, but she
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Speaker 1: she definitely could have prevented it by just leaving immediately.
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Speaker 1: And he was suffering from postmatic stress and I didn't
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Speaker 1: ask you about the postal max stress syndrome. I'm asking
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Speaker 1: you about Stephanie Flores. You just said she provoked him
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Speaker 1: into murder. Have you seen the crime scene. Her blood
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Speaker 1: was smeared from the bottom of the the wall to
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Speaker 1: the top of the ceiling. She's covered in bruises, half naked.
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Speaker 1: He stole thousands of dollars from her and said his
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Speaker 1: only problem was the money was covered in blood. And
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Speaker 1: you're telling me that she provoked him. I believe so, Nancy.
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Speaker 1: Why well, if you're in a room with someone, what
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Speaker 1: if you're in a room with someone you believe might
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Speaker 1: have been involved in a murder, you don't stay there
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Speaker 1: and talk to them about it. You immediately leave the area. Well,
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Speaker 1: don't you think that it's more his fault since he
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Speaker 1: beat her to smithereens, strangled her and left her and
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Speaker 1: pull up her own blood as he shouldn't have reacted
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Speaker 1: that way. But react you think I murder? It's a reaction. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: we're just helping for the best, hopefully gets out in
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Speaker 1: ten years or less. Why is that the best? Why
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Speaker 1: shouldn't you get the death penalty? Oh? Absolutely not, absolutely not.
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Speaker 1: These are two there's two dead bodies. Two women are dead,
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Speaker 1: because I am Even if Natalie is dead, you can't
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Speaker 1: prove that he killed her. I didn't say whether it
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Speaker 1: to be proved or not. I said it's true. There's
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Speaker 1: no proof, there's no way to say that. It's so
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Speaker 1: here in the face. Have you seen the photos shown
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Speaker 1: the photos, Liz of the crime scene drenched in blood.
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Speaker 1: You're saying that you hope for the best that he
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Speaker 1: gets out and a third of his sentences that what
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Speaker 1: you just said. Yeah, I believe he made the crime
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Speaker 1: scene look worse than it initially was, like you said,
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Speaker 1: to make it look like someone try to rape or
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Speaker 1: something like that. So I believe afterwards the money was
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Speaker 1: just an afterthought. He didn't. Let me tell you something.
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Speaker 1: Her having her pants pulled off is the least of
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Speaker 1: Stephanie's problems. I doubt that's what she would be worried about.
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Speaker 1: She was brutally murdyred. As a matter of fact that
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Speaker 1: Dr Bill Lloyd Board certified physician and pathologists. You have
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Speaker 1: reviewed Stephanie Tassiana's medical examiner's report. The murder was heinous. Nancy,
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Speaker 1: she was a victim of severe violent trauma in addition
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Speaker 1: to the bruis is in the scratches and the cuts,
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Speaker 1: she also sustained a fracture to one of her cervical
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Speaker 1: vertebrate and a young, healthy woman, it's one of the
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Speaker 1: densest bones in the body. Simple strangulation won't break a
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Speaker 1: cervical vertebrae. So to you, John Ludwick, friend of yourn Vanderslute,
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Speaker 1: he used powerful, almost superhuman force to murder a defenseless woman.
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Speaker 1: And you're saying you hope for the best. It was
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Speaker 1: a crime of passionate heat at the moment type struggle
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Speaker 1: and stuff happens, So what do you mean, stuff happens?
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Speaker 1: He robbed her and took her money, and they killed
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Speaker 1: her so she wouldn't be able to testify to it.
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Speaker 1: That is what he told his lawyer. What's heat at
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Speaker 1: the moment? I believe it just all happened when she
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Speaker 1: confront of him about being involved. It just inspired out
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Speaker 1: of control with me right now, is a friend of
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Speaker 1: yourn Vanderslut. You keep saying over and over that Stephanie
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Speaker 1: Tassiana quote creative a killer? How can a woman, a
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Speaker 1: defenseless woman, create a killer out of a whole King
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Speaker 1: Dutchman like you're in vander slut. Why does she create
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Speaker 1: the killer? That's what I want to hear from you, Ludwick. Well,
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Speaker 1: she she put herself in the situation, and as soon
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Speaker 1: as she found out who he was, she she should
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Speaker 1: have left. She shouldn't have started an argument and fighting
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Speaker 1: with him and being an isolated area where you know,
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Speaker 1: how did she start an argument? All she did was say,
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Speaker 1: even by his own words, hey, you're the guy suspected
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Speaker 1: with Natalie Holloway. How's that starting a fight? Ludwick. If
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Speaker 1: I was a woman and I was in her situation,
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Speaker 1: I surely wouldn't have stood around to ask him that question.
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Speaker 1: I would have got out of there. Okay, So John Ludwick, uh,
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Speaker 1: And I'm speaking now not as a lawyer, but as
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Speaker 1: a victim of violent crime myself. You're saying that the
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Speaker 1: murder victim who endured a brutal beating, a superhuman strangulation
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Speaker 1: where her neck bone was actually crushed, the room covered
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Speaker 1: in blood, her clothes off of her post mortem, and
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Speaker 1: left that way to be found answer her fault. Sir,
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Speaker 1: You know what cut is, Mike, John Ludwick, I reserve
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Speaker 1: this for very, very food few people, but you, sir,
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Speaker 1: are a fool and what you have said sets victims
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Speaker 1: rights back maybe a couple of hundred years. Take him
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Speaker 1: off the screen. I don't want to look at him anymore.
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Speaker 1: You were listening to me on CNN hl In interviewing
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Speaker 1: a young man very close associate with your Vander Salute
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Speaker 1: who is now dead. But listen to the nine one
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Speaker 1: one call. What does it reveal? I thought I was
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Speaker 1: going to listen. He had a life to my Ni.
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Speaker 1: I got a nice from them. At least he's crazy.
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Speaker 1: He's been talking. That was the nine one one call
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Speaker 1: on Ludwig Your Vander sluts good buddy with me. Cheryl
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Speaker 1: McCall m Karen Stark, Astley Willcott, John Limley, and Art Harris.
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Speaker 1: Art Harris, What happened? Nancy? This was a shocking moment
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Speaker 1: in this whole saga when the best friend close friend
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Speaker 1: of Juren Vander Salute, who has been allegedly stalking his
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Speaker 1: ex girlfriend, confronts her in the driveway of her house
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Speaker 1: and they get into a struggle. He pulls out a knife,
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Speaker 1: trying to kidnap her. She later tells police, and she
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Speaker 1: wrestles for her life, grabs the knife and stabs him.
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Speaker 1: He is then later found leading to death, taken to
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Speaker 1: a hospital and dies. It's almost as if Natalie is
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Speaker 1: coming back from the grave to to send a message.
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Speaker 1: This is Juran's best friend, and now he has tried
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Speaker 1: to harm another woman and he is dead in a
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Speaker 1: Cheryl mccolluman, director of the Coal Case Research Institute. You
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Speaker 1: know what, I really didn't fully introduce all my guests.
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Speaker 1: Art Harris is with us. I believe it's a five
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Speaker 1: time Emmy Award winning investigative journalist and reporter. Cheryl McCullum
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Speaker 1: with as director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl,
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Speaker 1: you know we've said it a million times. Birds of
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Speaker 1: a feather, flock together, laid down with the dog, wake
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Speaker 1: up with the flea. There you go with your in
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Speaker 1: Vanderslute and Ludwick, best buddies. I mean, are you surprised,
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Speaker 1: Not at all, Not at all, You know, Nancy, Early
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Speaker 1: in my career, John Karls gave me some great advice
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Speaker 1: and he said, your victim today will be your suspect tomorrow.
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Speaker 1: Your suspect today will be your victim tomorrow. Here you go.
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Speaker 1: You cannot run in that lifestyle without thinking it's going
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Speaker 1: to come back to you. Listen. Tell me how do
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Speaker 1: you know you're in vanderslut Um? I met him in
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Speaker 1: a Ruba a few months back when he came back
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Speaker 1: for his father's memorial towards the end of February. Yes, yes,
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Speaker 1: how much time did you did? You spend a fair
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Speaker 1: bit of time with him? Yeah, just about every day
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Speaker 1: for about three and a half months I was with him.
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Speaker 1: So did you know that he was the suspect and
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Speaker 1: the death of America girl Natalie Halloway. Yes, that's how
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Speaker 1: I recognized him when we first met and we started
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Speaker 1: hanging out. May I ask what attracted you to a
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Speaker 1: potential murderer? Uh? Well, he was never proven guilty, so
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Speaker 1: I wouldn't call him that. Maybe a suspect, but I mean, okay,
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Speaker 1: how is your phrasing now? I asked you what attracted
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Speaker 1: you to a murder suspect? I mean he seemed like
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Speaker 1: he'd be a cool guy, and he ended up being
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Speaker 1: what the media makes him out to be as far
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Speaker 1: from the truth. He's a he's a good friend. Please
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Speaker 1: please put Mr Ludwick cups. Okay, what were you saying, dear?
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Speaker 1: I said what the media portrays him as is far
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Speaker 1: from the truth. He's a good, good person and a
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Speaker 1: good friend, and he's not the serial killer, sociopath, psychopath.
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Speaker 1: You guys, the media makes him to be okay. But
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Speaker 1: you know, Karen start with me, renowned New York psychologist
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Speaker 1: joining us, Karen Start, I've just got to say, when
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Speaker 1: I worked the streets to and I don't mean that
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Speaker 1: in a hooker way, When I beat the street to
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Speaker 1: find yeah good good to know that trying to find witnesses.
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Speaker 1: I mean I would be out and I still you've
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Speaker 1: heard the story million times out there. I could not
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Speaker 1: afford a winter coat. I had the worst coat. I
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Speaker 1: don't know where that thing came from. But I would
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Speaker 1: be out there and uh, trying to find witnesses, trying
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Speaker 1: to deliver subpoenas, tromping around all through the worst areas
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Speaker 1: of town. And I would meet people that would end
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Speaker 1: up being witnesses. But you know what else, Karen, I
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Speaker 1: considered them friends. I remember that I drove around town
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Speaker 1: I don't know how long, for weeks and weeks and
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Speaker 1: weeks with a convicted rapist in my car because he
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Speaker 1: was a witness helping me find somebody. During that time,
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Speaker 1: I found out more about his rape conviction that he
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Speaker 1: got when he was seventeen and his victim was his
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Speaker 1: fourteen year old girlfriend. They were dating and he got
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Speaker 1: charged and convicted of rape. Now he's like in his
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Speaker 1: thirties and it never had another conviction or problem since then.
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Speaker 1: And I looked it up, and that is what happened, Karen.
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Speaker 1: And you know, you just don't know when you when
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Speaker 1: Cheryl says you're suspect your victim, you don't know who
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Speaker 1: these people are. So I don't lump suspects in a
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Speaker 1: big pot like everybody thinks I do, because people that
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Speaker 1: have been convicted very often turned out to be some
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Speaker 1: of the finest people. I knew, the best witnesses. I
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Speaker 1: knew that that's that's the truth. But it also has
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Speaker 1: a grain of truth in it. What Cheryl McCollum just said,
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Speaker 1: we thought this guy was going to lead us to
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Speaker 1: the truth about Natalie. You know, I fell for and
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Speaker 1: I thought it could be true. It was all lies,
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Speaker 1: and now he tried to stab somebody, Karen. And if
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Speaker 1: you take a look at what Chryls said where that
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Speaker 1: people hang out together, this makes perfect sense. Sooner or
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Speaker 1: later something was going to happen. They were he was
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Speaker 1: best friends with your own he lied. She didn't make
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Speaker 1: a lot of sense. The girlfriend was not mentally stable
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Speaker 1: as far as I could tell. Well, I mean, why
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Speaker 1: would you day that? But well, but wait a minute,
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Speaker 1: I want to follow up on what Karen start just said.
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Speaker 1: Ashley Willcott with me, juvenile judge and founder of a
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Speaker 1: brand new website. Tell me about your website, Ashley sure,
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Speaker 1: child crime watch dot com, Child crime watch dot com.
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Speaker 1: Ashley did. Karen was just talking about hanging out with
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Speaker 1: and the girl must have had mental instability. A lot
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Speaker 1: of women date guys or mary eyes that are bad news,
14:02
Speaker 1: as my mom would say, and they're the only ones
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Speaker 1: that can't see it. Yeah. Absolutely, I gotta say often
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Speaker 1: women make bad choices and dumb choices when it comes
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Speaker 1: to affairs of the heart, over and over. Well. As
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Speaker 1: a matter of fact, Alan Duke, uh, you have found
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Speaker 1: a very interesting interview of the victim in this case.
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Speaker 1: And for those of you just joining us, this guy,
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Speaker 1: John Christopher Ludwig made headlines when he said he helped
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Speaker 1: Yourn vander Slute dispose of Natalie Holloway's body. This guy,
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Speaker 1: thirty two years old, of Port Charlotte, Florida was stabbed
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Speaker 1: dead in the last days. Is he tried to kidnap
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Speaker 1: a woman from her vehicle, say police. Now he had
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Speaker 1: been roommates with her at one point they had a
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Speaker 1: romantic relationship. She didn't want that anymore, but he would
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Speaker 1: have nothing to do with it and basically ambushed her
15:00
Speaker 1: as she was getting out of her car going into
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Speaker 1: her home. And that's a nightmare, you know. I try
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Speaker 1: to tell the children in parking garages and parking lots
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Speaker 1: be careful. So tell me about what she had to
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Speaker 1: say Alan Die when she was asked, why are you
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Speaker 1: dating a guy that's tied up with yourne Vander salute?
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Speaker 1: Basically she said she just didn't have anybody else to
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Speaker 1: hang out with and she was going to stay with
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Speaker 1: him even though he is a dangerous man of bizarre exchange.
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Speaker 1: This video was made last May by Gabriel Madrigal, who
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Speaker 1: we've had on this show a couple of times. He
15:34
Speaker 1: was the gentleman who, yeah, what a guy. He was
15:37
Speaker 1: the gentleman who helped t. J. Wore the detective and
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Speaker 1: Dave Holloway go and yeah, yeah, yea hold on just
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Speaker 1: a moment, I had that response because I was thinking
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Speaker 1: of another player in the Natalie Holloway scenario. Yes, I
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Speaker 1: remember Gabriel, I remember very well. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah
15:54
Speaker 1: yeah yeah yeah. Doesn't he have a daughter that was
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Speaker 1: really ill at the time? Yeah, God bless him and
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Speaker 1: the daughter. Yes, yes, I remember him. Okay, Alan, take
16:04
Speaker 1: a listen to what Alan Diekes telling us about buckle
16:08
Speaker 1: your seatbelt people. I'm here with Emily hastein. Emily, Now,
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Speaker 1: why you are you around John? Because that's why I
16:23
Speaker 1: don't know, because we hang out and together and I
16:28
Speaker 1: don't have any other friends. Um, but do you do
16:31
Speaker 1: you know what he's been involved in? Kind of you
16:36
Speaker 1: know that he helped well until he gets in trouble.
16:39
Speaker 1: It's not feels so you don't even believe it. Dude.
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Speaker 1: He tells me a different story every time to believe.
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Speaker 1: I feel like if it really happened to be in trouble.
16:49
Speaker 1: But it did happen. But how do you know? Because
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Speaker 1: I found the body, he took me right where it was.
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Speaker 1: Do you know for sure? When he gets charged and
17:00
Speaker 1: I be like, my dog kills somebody, you think it's funny,
17:04
Speaker 1: Well I don't think so what about it? He kills you.
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Speaker 1: Thank you Jesus. That's what I'm waiting for. It like,
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Speaker 1: you know how dumb? You know how dummy sound? I'm
17:13
Speaker 1: stressed now, you know how really had dumb? I mean,
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Speaker 1: I just I cannot comprehend a girl like you will
17:21
Speaker 1: even try to hang around with John. How do you
17:23
Speaker 1: out Because it's my job, it's my job. I've never
17:30
Speaker 1: met John. I see, but I warned you not to
17:36
Speaker 1: not to mess with John. Why I couldn't? So it
17:43
Speaker 1: is you can walk away? What about it? What about
17:46
Speaker 1: if he kills you? Good? You know how stupid you sound?
17:52
Speaker 1: You know how John? You know how stupid you sound.
17:58
Speaker 1: I think John is a good person. He just got
18:00
Speaker 1: some steve. You're shot. What about if you die in
18:07
Speaker 1: two weeks, I'm probably going to Oh I won't, And
18:13
Speaker 1: if I die, it's not going to be because of John.
18:15
Speaker 1: I can kills someone. Well, he tried to hang himself.
18:19
Speaker 1: He's too stupid to hang him to worry about, so
18:25
Speaker 1: I'm nothing to worry about. So Lauren is out of
18:27
Speaker 1: the picture. Your boyfriend's out of the picture. So now
18:30
Speaker 1: you and John are out of the picture. He just
18:32
Speaker 1: went to jail for a minent Oh, so I don't
18:37
Speaker 1: even I don't even get it in the John, I
18:39
Speaker 1: didn't almost you know you're you're a path of pilot wire.
18:43
Speaker 1: I lie all the time. I know there's but I'm
18:45
Speaker 1: not mine. Right now, you can ask him. He's mad
18:47
Speaker 1: about it. I don't want to get it in. So
18:50
Speaker 1: here's my interview. What would you like to tell the
18:52
Speaker 1: people that John? What's John? What's his petro about? John? Idiot?
18:56
Speaker 1: That's why he did what he did. He has no brain. Lad.
18:59
Speaker 1: He shout out drug about John to bed a little
19:02
Speaker 1: extra cash on the side. So why do you hang
19:10
Speaker 1: with him? Then? I don't know. I don't have anyone
19:12
Speaker 1: not to hang out with right now. You're so shot, huh.
19:19
Speaker 1: You can do a lot better than John. Come on, like,
19:21
Speaker 1: give me a break. I'm looking let me look figure
19:25
Speaker 1: it out East dot Com. I need to put my
19:27
Speaker 1: name out there. You're so shot anyways, you cannot help.
19:32
Speaker 1: You can out help a person like this girl right here.
19:34
Speaker 1: You just can't help. Okay, that is crazy with me,
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Speaker 1: John Linley, Crime Stories contributing reporter. So she knew full
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Speaker 1: well who she was dating, right John, Oh, full well
19:50
Speaker 1: without a doubt. Um, we've made mention of this documentary
19:55
Speaker 1: that John Ludwick was featured in the Disappearance of Natalie Holloway,
20:01
Speaker 1: a mini series which followed Natalie's father, Dave Holloway, and
20:06
Speaker 1: his private investigator as they followed up new clues about
20:10
Speaker 1: what might have happened to the teenager. And in this series,
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Speaker 1: Ludwig was shown explain explaining that he had crushed up
20:19
Speaker 1: Natalie's unearthed bones so that they weren't recognizable as human,
20:24
Speaker 1: burning the skull to get rid of hair fibers. He
20:28
Speaker 1: was also filmed saying that after dog remains were added
20:32
Speaker 1: to the mix, he went to the crematorium and claimed
20:36
Speaker 1: that his pet had died. Ludwig was shown on the
20:38
Speaker 1: documentary saying that he and Vander Salute had borrowed a
20:42
Speaker 1: fisherman's boat and scattered the ashes at sea. You know, uh,
20:48
Speaker 1: aren't Harris. I know that the bone scenario turned out
20:52
Speaker 1: to be a big lie, but Art and I'm gonna
20:56
Speaker 1: go to Sheryl after this. In every lie I've been told,
21:00
Speaker 1: there is a grain, tiny grain of truth. I still
21:05
Speaker 1: wonder if he did not have something to do with
21:08
Speaker 1: helping on Vanderslot get rid of Nollie's body, but lied
21:12
Speaker 1: about exactly how they did it. I mean, his details
21:17
Speaker 1: were so I find it hard to believe he made
21:21
Speaker 1: the whole thing up well, Nancy, and he was he
21:24
Speaker 1: did not sound as if he were that creative. And
21:27
Speaker 1: yet he was talking about your in paying him dollars
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Speaker 1: to find the remains and rebury them after after crushing
21:37
Speaker 1: the skull and trying to make them unrecognizable. So uh.
21:41
Speaker 1: Like a lot of sociopaths, psychopaths, they do change the
21:45
Speaker 1: story and they think they're smarter than everybody else by
21:49
Speaker 1: changing a few pieces. They don't realize what they said
21:53
Speaker 1: before or didn't say, could come back to haunt them,
21:56
Speaker 1: and in this case, um, I think it did. And
21:59
Speaker 1: the guy wound up involved perpetrating violence against the next girlfriend,
22:07
Speaker 1: amazingly similar to a gene that maybe that you're in has.
22:12
Speaker 1: So uh. He has seen also in your interview a
22:16
Speaker 1: few years ago defending you're in and and making excuses
22:21
Speaker 1: for vander Salute attacking the last woman he killed, saying
22:25
Speaker 1: that well, she provoked him by even bringing up the
22:29
Speaker 1: fact that he had likely killed Natalie Holloway. So aren't
22:33
Speaker 1: you that guy and that is what prompted him to
22:36
Speaker 1: kill her? Uh? And you interviewed this lad with guy
22:39
Speaker 1: who's defending your in as reacting to that and says, well,
22:44
Speaker 1: she shouldn't have brought it up. It was really her fault.
22:46
Speaker 1: Do you remember that? Oh? Yeah, that was the clote
22:49
Speaker 1: we just played earlier. I remember very well, aren't Harris,
22:53
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. I want to talk to you about. I'm
22:56
Speaker 1: not disagreeing with you about your suspect will, but you're
22:59
Speaker 1: to me suspect that whole thing. Cheryl McCullum, I'm not
23:03
Speaker 1: discounting your theory at all. As a matter of fact.
23:07
Speaker 1: You know, I remember and you remember this case too,
23:10
Speaker 1: the case of Julie Love, the kindergarten teacher that was
23:14
Speaker 1: out jogging and um Emmanuel Hammonds and his crew saw
23:20
Speaker 1: her and followed her. She tried, poor old thing, tried
23:24
Speaker 1: to pretend she was going into somebody else's house. It
23:26
Speaker 1: was in mid morning, and they they had the sense
23:30
Speaker 1: that wasn't really her house, and they waited for her
23:32
Speaker 1: to come back out. Then they got her. They assaulted her,
23:34
Speaker 1: horribly beat her and killed her. And she had what
23:37
Speaker 1: she couldn't tell by looking at her, but she had
23:40
Speaker 1: a glass eye. And that glass eye was found a
23:46
Speaker 1: long time later, and that's what led to the prosecution. Okay,
23:50
Speaker 1: that's part of my story. The rest of my story
23:52
Speaker 1: is I later prosecutor triple homicide. Turned out the gunman
23:58
Speaker 1: was that guy's first isn't. What I'm saying is, You're right,
24:04
Speaker 1: criminals often running packs, and I don't understand that behavior,
24:10
Speaker 1: the wilding, the peer pressure. But I'm just giving you
24:15
Speaker 1: one anecdote of many many that I recall over the
24:18
Speaker 1: years of prosecuting. Where this one's here. Here's another one, Cheryl,
24:23
Speaker 1: get this. I'll never forget it. Cheryl are Harris. You
24:28
Speaker 1: probably remember this, you Atlanta people. Um. I prosecuted a
24:32
Speaker 1: guy for a huge drug trafficking. He was rich Rich
24:37
Speaker 1: rich Street named Charlie Tuna, Okay, And I was convinced
24:42
Speaker 1: that the judge was going to rule with the defense
24:45
Speaker 1: and my evidence would be thrown out. It was Judge Langham,
24:47
Speaker 1: who I loved well. As a matter of fact. He
24:50
Speaker 1: ruled with me, and that the evidence came in. The
24:53
Speaker 1: guy was convicted, all right, my first big drug trafficking conviction.
24:58
Speaker 1: Fast forward about ten twelve, maybe longer. It was longer.
25:02
Speaker 1: Many years later. O. J. Simpson beats the rap. Then
25:06
Speaker 1: he gets busted in Vegas for armed robbery and who
25:10
Speaker 1: was with him? Charles erlick e h R l I
25:15
Speaker 1: c h And it just hit me right then that's
25:17
Speaker 1: Charlie Tuna. Who else would have that name? Sure enough,
25:21
Speaker 1: he get does ten on trafficking, gets out of jail,
25:24
Speaker 1: and hooks up somehow with Simpson and as part of
25:28
Speaker 1: that robbing crew. I mean, it's like they are drawn
25:31
Speaker 1: to each other, like the magnet at the North Pole.
25:36
Speaker 1: They can't stay away from evil doing. Cheryl. Well, here's
25:40
Speaker 1: the thing about John Logan. Let's just talk about how
25:42
Speaker 1: full of crap he is. Nancy, you know, as well
25:46
Speaker 1: as minor. That's a technical legal term. Go ahead, but
25:51
Speaker 1: mir or a two b people, if you send them
25:54
Speaker 1: to the store for milk, they're coming home with milk.
25:57
Speaker 1: You asked a lady to stop gett milked at the store,
26:01
Speaker 1: she's gonna say, well, while I'm here, I'm gonna go
26:03
Speaker 1: ahead and get stuff for breakfast, and we need paper towels,
26:06
Speaker 1: a et cetera. Men a ta be. So when you
26:09
Speaker 1: look at John and he tells you, oh yeah, um,
26:12
Speaker 1: I dug up the remains and then I crushed the
26:15
Speaker 1: bones and then I took her into a cave where
26:18
Speaker 1: I burned her with some gasoline. So I had the
26:20
Speaker 1: slipper to the cave and then bring the gasoline with us. Oh,
26:24
Speaker 1: and then I took her to a crematorium. Oh, and
26:27
Speaker 1: then we went and scattered her in the ocean. You
26:31
Speaker 1: are such a freaking lyre it is not even funny.
26:35
Speaker 1: So now you want me to believe you did all
26:37
Speaker 1: those things? And then you're such a criminal mastermind. You
26:40
Speaker 1: went and got some doll bones and put that where
26:43
Speaker 1: her remains were to throw us off the track in
26:46
Speaker 1: case we find that. You know, Clamdestine Grave, You're a jackass.
26:52
Speaker 1: None of that happened. It is fantasy, it is then
26:56
Speaker 1: why did he Why did he do it? Ashley Willcott?
27:00
Speaker 1: I mean, you're the juvenile judge. You've tried a ton
27:04
Speaker 1: of cases. You've been in the trenches just like the
27:07
Speaker 1: rest of us. Why would he deliver this fantastical tale
27:12
Speaker 1: and then meet his own bloody end? Ashley? I mean,
27:15
Speaker 1: do they never learn for Pete's sake? And criminals aren't smart?
27:20
Speaker 1: So two things. Number one, I think he wanted to
27:23
Speaker 1: be famous or infamous, right, so he's gonna come out
27:26
Speaker 1: and tell this elaborate story number two. It is his fantasy.
27:30
Speaker 1: So here's my thing. What if he had not been
27:32
Speaker 1: stabbed in self defense, which she says it was, would
27:35
Speaker 1: he have kidnapped her, killed her and done all of
27:38
Speaker 1: these things he's come up with in his mind and
27:41
Speaker 1: crushed the bones and burned her skull. Maybe it's his fantasy.
27:45
Speaker 1: You know, what do you make of this, Ashley? Our
27:47
Speaker 1: theory that criminals just are naturally it's like inherent, they
27:51
Speaker 1: can't help it. They're genetically drawn to each other. Well,
27:54
Speaker 1: I think it's peer groups, right. Think about the people
27:56
Speaker 1: you hang out with. Guess what, they're not criminals because
27:59
Speaker 1: you're drawn to people that are like you, that you
28:01
Speaker 1: have common interests. So as deranged as it is, as
28:05
Speaker 1: stupid as it is, people who have criminal minds and
28:08
Speaker 1: want to do bad things to people, guess what, they're
28:11
Speaker 1: gonna hang out with like minded people who also want
28:16
Speaker 1: to do those things. I will never forget our Harris.
28:19
Speaker 1: I want you away on this. I remember going to
28:22
Speaker 1: get together so when I was a prosecutor and one
28:26
Speaker 1: of my very dear friends, female friends a dinner casual.
28:33
Speaker 1: I think, uh, they were making um new Orleans food,
28:38
Speaker 1: a Cajun food. Well, I saw one person pull out
28:42
Speaker 1: a joint. Honey, I got myself together and I left.
28:46
Speaker 1: Can you even imagine? So, of course, not that it
28:51
Speaker 1: would happen, but a bust. And there I'm sitting in
28:55
Speaker 1: there with with a big pot of what, let's see,
29:00
Speaker 1: a big pot, a little a too fee, a little
29:03
Speaker 1: red beans and rise, and a big joint right behind me.
29:06
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, in oh, and you all may laugh about it,
29:12
Speaker 1: but that's the last thing my children are going to
29:14
Speaker 1: read about on the internet as mommy's all being in trouble.
29:19
Speaker 1: I mean, when I get a ticket, I pay the
29:21
Speaker 1: darn thing, I say thank you and drive off at
29:25
Speaker 1: fifteen miles an hour. Bam uh in oh, And what
29:28
Speaker 1: she's saying is right, you flop too, what what you're
29:33
Speaker 1: comfortable with? And that's why when people get out of
29:36
Speaker 1: jail they run straight back to their old crew. It's
29:39
Speaker 1: just like it's you can predict it. There's a picture
29:42
Speaker 1: of this guy Ludwick and You're in Vandisflute on his
29:45
Speaker 1: Facebook page, Nancy. This was his his idol here he
29:49
Speaker 1: looked up to him. I mean, it's it's really sickening
29:52
Speaker 1: to think about uh, you know these two, these two
29:56
Speaker 1: birds of a feather as you put it, Uh, and
29:58
Speaker 1: now one's in prison the other is dead. Ironically by
30:02
Speaker 1: you know, provoking the woman, he may have been acting
30:06
Speaker 1: out your end fantasy on I mean, this is if
30:09
Speaker 1: if if he looks up to someone who has killed
30:12
Speaker 1: two women and he has a girlfriend and has this opportunity,
30:17
Speaker 1: the judges is probably just right. This could have been
30:20
Speaker 1: her death and not his had the knife gone the
30:23
Speaker 1: other way. Guys, I want you to hear this other
30:25
Speaker 1: sound at Alan managed to get for us. It's me
30:30
Speaker 1: interviewing John Ludwig, the dead guy, defending your Vanderslut, calling
30:35
Speaker 1: him a good guy. Listen to me on CNN, h
30:39
Speaker 1: L and the US as a special guest John Ludwig.
30:42
Speaker 1: He is a friend of yourn vander Salute. He's joining
30:45
Speaker 1: us from Washington, d C. Tonight. Mr Ludwig, Are are
30:48
Speaker 1: you from the States? Yes, I'm from Alexander, Virginia. And
30:54
Speaker 1: do your parents know of your friendship with yourn vander Slut.
30:57
Speaker 1: Yes they do, and what do they think of it? Um?
31:01
Speaker 1: I mean they have mixed opinions, but I mean he's
31:04
Speaker 1: my friend and it's my choice. Right. When you say
31:07
Speaker 1: mixed opinions, what do you mean by that? Because of
31:10
Speaker 1: the past alleged incident, I mean, please put Mr Ludwig up.
31:15
Speaker 1: Mr Ludwig, he's confessed to breaking somebody's neck, a girl's neck,
31:20
Speaker 1: and then taking her clothes off after she's dead. And
31:24
Speaker 1: then it says I used the comforter and the she's
31:26
Speaker 1: to clean up all the blood from the floor. I
31:29
Speaker 1: only clean the floor. He left the rest of the
31:31
Speaker 1: room just bloody up. You know, another can of worms.
31:37
Speaker 1: Here is an email exchange between you and Joran Vanderslute
31:41
Speaker 1: where he says, happy birthday. I hope you had a
31:44
Speaker 1: good day. This is May, and remember how important family
31:48
Speaker 1: and friends are. By the way, can you send me
31:51
Speaker 1: some money through Western Union tomorrow? Remember that? Yes I do.
31:57
Speaker 1: Did you send him money? No? I did. Uh. He
32:01
Speaker 1: had told me that was the evening of May nine,
32:04
Speaker 1: and I guess the alleged event happened later a few
32:07
Speaker 1: hours later, into the thirtie. But he told me he
32:10
Speaker 1: needed money to get back to a rubus. So I
32:12
Speaker 1: mean before I had a chance to help him out,
32:15
Speaker 1: I couldn't get a hold of him. And then the
32:16
Speaker 1: news said what it said, sir, it's not just the
32:21
Speaker 1: news said what it said. The news is not like
32:25
Speaker 1: being walking around this studio that just spouts things off
32:29
Speaker 1: the news. Is what he did and said, Okay, it's
32:32
Speaker 1: it's just that didn't fall from the sky hit you
32:35
Speaker 1: on the head. This is what you're on. Vander Slut said.
32:38
Speaker 1: But sir, obviously you're going to choose to believe what
32:42
Speaker 1: you want to believe. What, if anything, did he tell
32:45
Speaker 1: you about Natalie Holloway. Um, we only had one main
32:50
Speaker 1: discussion on it, and it was an evening that we
32:52
Speaker 1: watched the Natalie Holloway movie on TV. And he just
32:56
Speaker 1: told me parts of the movie that were true in
32:59
Speaker 1: parts that weren't true. And that's about at length as
33:04
Speaker 1: I want to get into it. Did you ask him
33:07
Speaker 1: more things? No, I didn't bring it up. He talked
33:11
Speaker 1: to me about it, but I'm not I don't want
33:13
Speaker 1: to get into any more of that. You mean you
33:18
Speaker 1: don't want to tell me more about it, right, or
33:20
Speaker 1: you didn't want to get into more of it with him? No,
33:23
Speaker 1: I don't want to bring that up at this time. Well,
33:26
Speaker 1: I would advise you to get ready for a subpoena
33:30
Speaker 1: to find out in a court of law. What he
33:32
Speaker 1: had to say about Natalie Holloway's death with me is
33:36
Speaker 1: John Ludwick, friend of your in vandi slut, Mr Ludwick.
33:39
Speaker 1: What kind of things would you do together? Mainly we
33:45
Speaker 1: went to the casino and he liked to play poker.
33:48
Speaker 1: I just watched her play slots, but he really I'd
33:53
Speaker 1: say at a gambling addiction, but he'd play poker almost
33:55
Speaker 1: every night. Did he ever mention where he got the money?
34:00
Speaker 1: Did he ever mention he was in the middle of
34:02
Speaker 1: a shakedown on the dead girl's mother for a quarter
34:06
Speaker 1: million dollars to name where the dead girl's body is. Um?
34:11
Speaker 1: I know he had money because he ran a coffee
34:14
Speaker 1: shop in Thailand, so he had some money saved for that.
34:16
Speaker 1: But after a while he's money started running low. And
34:20
Speaker 1: that's when I guess the contact happened with that what contact?
34:26
Speaker 1: That's when I guess he tried to contact um, John
34:30
Speaker 1: Kelly or Beth Halloway. And that stuff happened when he
34:32
Speaker 1: run out started running out of money. Why do you
34:35
Speaker 1: say he tried to contact And what he tried to
34:37
Speaker 1: do was extort a quarter million dollars in exchange for
34:41
Speaker 1: the location of Natalie's body. And it would seem to
34:44
Speaker 1: me that you would be concerned that he knew where
34:47
Speaker 1: a dead body was. I mean, if you knew where
34:50
Speaker 1: a dead body was, Mr, wouldn't you tell police? Um?
34:54
Speaker 1: I mean not if it compromised me? Maybe not? Well, okay,
34:58
Speaker 1: obviously you know I I learned I think in kindergarten
35:01
Speaker 1: two plus two equals four. But if Vandersleut won't tell
35:06
Speaker 1: where the body is because it compromises him, that means
35:09
Speaker 1: he's involved in the murder. Did that not bother you
35:12
Speaker 1: during all the months you were out at casinos with him?
35:15
Speaker 1: I mean I was never in fear for my safety.
35:19
Speaker 1: To John Linley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, I just want
35:22
Speaker 1: to touch on how this guy Ludwick died. What he goes?
35:27
Speaker 1: What is this his ex girlfriend and he wants to
35:29
Speaker 1: get back together. What do we know about how he
35:31
Speaker 1: actually died the facts of this from what she told police,
35:36
Speaker 1: this woman was done with what relationship they had. She
35:41
Speaker 1: wanted out. Um, John Ludwig showed up at her house,
35:46
Speaker 1: tried to get her car keys. Uh, and so he
35:52
Speaker 1: had a knife and somehow she was able to gain
35:56
Speaker 1: control of the knife before he could attack her, and
36:00
Speaker 1: she very quickly stabbed him and brought to a close
36:05
Speaker 1: this bizarre episode in the in the driveway of her house.
36:10
Speaker 1: You know what I mean when I think about it,
36:12
Speaker 1: Sheryl McCollum, What did could we not predict this would
36:17
Speaker 1: be his bitter end? Oh? Like we had a crystal ball, Harney.
36:21
Speaker 1: I mean, you cannot run with criminals, especially killers, and
36:27
Speaker 1: not think you're going to receive the same type of car.
36:30
Speaker 1: But so, bottom line, was there just one stab? Aren't Harris?
36:34
Speaker 1: Or the police report talks about her stabbing him multiple
36:40
Speaker 1: times quote in the Torso area. Uh. They find the
36:43
Speaker 1: sheaf of the knife in his backpack that he ran
36:46
Speaker 1: away with, and police believe she'd nick an artery. A
36:50
Speaker 1: lucky lucky stab for her but amazing, this woman fighting
36:54
Speaker 1: for her life, Uh, stabs this guy multiple times with
36:58
Speaker 1: his own knife. Police say self defense and they do
37:02
Speaker 1: not anticipate any charges being pressed against Church. So in
37:06
Speaker 1: the end of this, right, Harris, what has become of
37:09
Speaker 1: all the players in the Natalie Holloway scenario. Well, certainly
37:12
Speaker 1: you have the star uh, evil Gene in prison and
37:17
Speaker 1: Peru uh and uh, you know, last seen taking a
37:21
Speaker 1: candy bar from Beth Holloway, promising Hill writer and tell
37:24
Speaker 1: her possibly where Natalie's body has never done. Um, you
37:28
Speaker 1: have the mother and you have the father who has
37:32
Speaker 1: been on Oxygen UH network trying to uh you know,
37:37
Speaker 1: follow the trail of clues that this dead man claims
37:41
Speaker 1: that he had access to with all these bones. Um.
37:45
Speaker 1: So you know it is a sad a sad landscape
37:49
Speaker 1: of tragedy Nancy, as as crimes often are. But this
37:53
Speaker 1: one has gone on and on and the ghost seems
37:57
Speaker 1: to be coming back. UM in this a certainly in
38:01
Speaker 1: this killing. You know when I think about it, Cheryl McCullum,
38:05
Speaker 1: you've got the mom devastated. I'm talking about Beth Twitty,
38:14
Speaker 1: devastated because her she lost her daughter. She got her
38:17
Speaker 1: hopes up when the Oxygen series started thinking maybe you
38:22
Speaker 1: know this might be Nallie's rermazine, she was, you know, devastated. Again.
38:27
Speaker 1: You've got the dad who went through all this drama,
38:31
Speaker 1: has gone all over the world trying to find clues
38:35
Speaker 1: about Natalie. Could she still be alive? You've got your
38:40
Speaker 1: on vanderslut who, as I predicted, and I normally don't
38:43
Speaker 1: pat myself on the back for predicting another murder, did
38:46
Speaker 1: go on to kill again. He's in jail. He's managed
38:50
Speaker 1: to have a baby and get married and drink and
38:53
Speaker 1: do drugs and live the high life behind bars. But yes,
38:56
Speaker 1: he's married with a baby behind bars in another country.
39:01
Speaker 1: This guy is dead, and I think that Cheryl is
39:06
Speaker 1: at awful unfalls. Over the next years, we'll see more
39:11
Speaker 1: of the end of the story, much like we did
39:13
Speaker 1: with the players in the O. J. Simpson case. You
39:16
Speaker 1: see how their lives unfold. I think Beth is probably
39:20
Speaker 1: the person that my heart breaks for often in this case,
39:25
Speaker 1: because she's been lied to, she's been boon swoggled, she's
39:30
Speaker 1: been set up over and over again. So basically have
39:34
Speaker 1: her heart ripped from her chance over and over um
39:39
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean, I've talked the best personally
39:41
Speaker 1: multiple times. My original thought of what happens to Natalie
39:46
Speaker 1: have never changed, no matter who has come forward. Your hand.
39:50
Speaker 1: Vander Sleut in Peru with Stephanie floors panic and rant.
39:55
Speaker 1: He didn't had that body, he didn't take that body,
39:57
Speaker 1: he didn't dispose of that body. He panic. In Rain
40:01
Speaker 1: with Natalie, you did the same thing. He was feet
40:04
Speaker 1: from the Atlantic Ocean, that's where he put her sad pitiful.
40:10
Speaker 1: I mean, Karen Stark, you know how I am with
40:13
Speaker 1: the twins, and it hurts me to even let him
40:15
Speaker 1: out of my sight. I don't want to be some
40:17
Speaker 1: freaky mom. Ashley and I joked about it, as she
40:21
Speaker 1: willcott that there's a helicopter mom. I call myself the
40:23
Speaker 1: straight jacket mom. But I try not to let them
40:27
Speaker 1: know how freaked out I am. I try to watch
40:31
Speaker 1: and worry at a distance, but stories like this, I mean,
40:36
Speaker 1: I was just trying to explain to Lucy this past
40:38
Speaker 1: weekend why I was going back to college when she
40:40
Speaker 1: went to college, and that I would live very very
40:44
Speaker 1: um quietly and unobtrusively right across the street from campus
40:49
Speaker 1: with a pair of binoculars. I mean, help me, Karen, Well, Nancy,
40:56
Speaker 1: we can't protect our children from harm. Although that's every
41:00
Speaker 1: mother's you know, wish. In this case, her daughter was
41:05
Speaker 1: on a vacation and it was just supposed to be
41:09
Speaker 1: a fun trip with friends from school, and this tragedy happened.
41:17
Speaker 1: I think that the man who was just killed identified
41:22
Speaker 1: with his friend. I remember those interviews and when he
41:26
Speaker 1: kept defending him and saying, well, if that, you know,
41:30
Speaker 1: she never should have asked him about Natalie. Why would
41:34
Speaker 1: she bring that up? And I could tell even then
41:37
Speaker 1: that he was talking about himself, that if somebody did
41:41
Speaker 1: that with him, he would think it would be fine
41:44
Speaker 1: to murder them. And so here we are and he
41:48
Speaker 1: turns out to be a killer and he gets killed himself.
41:53
Speaker 1: So it's a tragic story. And it's not over yet. No,
41:58
Speaker 1: mother doesn't get resolution. She's right, Ashley Wilcott, it's not
42:02
Speaker 1: over yet, that there's going to be more. And I
42:05
Speaker 1: swear I believe, and I know this sounds crazy, that
42:08
Speaker 1: one day we will know the truth about Natalie, But
42:12
Speaker 1: I do agree with Cheryl. I've I've always thought that's
42:14
Speaker 1: what happened to Natal. Yeah, I agree with you, Nancy,
42:16
Speaker 1: and I too, I believe what goes around comes around,
42:20
Speaker 1: and that someday in the future we will know exactly
42:24
Speaker 1: what happened to her. It takes time, but often years
42:27
Speaker 1: and years later, like you said, Glass Eyeball, you find
42:31
Speaker 1: out what. Oh, and you know that's a good John, Nancy.
42:35
Speaker 1: It's interesting to note we've talked about how we don't
42:39
Speaker 1: quite believe John Ludwig's story. Well, the credibility of what
42:43
Speaker 1: he said in that Oxygen documentary was cast into doubt
42:47
Speaker 1: by a lawsuit filed by Natalie's mother Beth. In her lawsuit,
42:52
Speaker 1: Ms Holloway accused Oxygen and the production company Great and
42:56
Speaker 1: Great and Media pretending to report on the progress of
43:00
Speaker 1: an investigation as it was happening, when in fact everything
43:03
Speaker 1: had been prescripted, making the series really a pre planned
43:08
Speaker 1: farce in their words, whose broadcast was outrageous. In her lawsuit,
43:13
Speaker 1: Blessed Beth claimed that at a point when the series
43:16
Speaker 1: portrayed Ludwig as being covertly recorded, he had already signed
43:21
Speaker 1: a non disclosure agreement and was a paid participant in
43:25
Speaker 1: the series and aware at all times that he was
43:28
Speaker 1: being taped for publication. Meanwhile, the claims of the lawsuit
43:32
Speaker 1: have been denied and Oxygen is standing behind that documentary.
43:37
Speaker 1: Botom line to you are, Harris, how's it all going
43:40
Speaker 1: to play out in the end? Do you think we'll
43:42
Speaker 1: ever get a resolution? And are you surprised about this
43:45
Speaker 1: guy's his his death? This this guy like Yourn, kept
43:51
Speaker 1: changing his story about the evidence for money, and he
43:54
Speaker 1: would be paid. He would get you know something, and
43:57
Speaker 1: he told people what they wanted to hear. As your
44:00
Speaker 1: En has said on tape, that's what he did. Now,
44:03
Speaker 1: how will it end, um? I mean, I just have
44:06
Speaker 1: to believe that at some point someone either offer magnuron
44:11
Speaker 1: offer he can't refuse. But the problem here is there
44:15
Speaker 1: are too many people Nancy in Aruba who don't want
44:18
Speaker 1: the truth to come out, and so, uh, this is
44:22
Speaker 1: something that you want probably fears they fear, and you
44:25
Speaker 1: know the police don't seem that interested and have dismissed
44:30
Speaker 1: him as a liar, and that gives them an excuse
44:33
Speaker 1: not to pursue it because there's no credibility here uh
44:37
Speaker 1: to the information. So uh it is. It is really
44:40
Speaker 1: sad tragic, but you know, at some point, if there
44:45
Speaker 1: is anything physical, um, maybe it can be proved. However,
44:49
Speaker 1: I believe, like Cheryl does, that the ashes were scattered.
44:53
Speaker 1: John Ludwig actually has said that he went out in
44:55
Speaker 1: a boat with with your En. Uh. Whether that's true
44:59
Speaker 1: or not, that's the saying story Vanderslute has told before.
45:02
Speaker 1: So maybe the two together are saying something that that
45:07
Speaker 1: we should listen to. That the evidence um is sleeping
45:11
Speaker 1: with fish. Sadly, as it turns out, Ludwick the guy
45:14
Speaker 1: involved in the Natalie Holloway disappearance and death is now
45:19
Speaker 1: a footnote to the Natalie Holloway story. His life ends
45:25
Speaker 1: and a sticky, bloody death of his own when he
45:29
Speaker 1: tries to kidnap a next girlfriend that wants nothing else
45:33
Speaker 1: to do with him. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off
45:38
Speaker 1: good Bye friend,