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Norm Hamlet: Ridin' the Frets with Merle Haggard & The Strangers · San Joaquin Sound

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This is the San Joaquin Sound Podcast. I'm your
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host, AJ Rodriguez. I'm here with Norm Hamlet.
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You played with the Farmer Boys, with Rose Maddox
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and the Maddox Brothers. You're a pedal steel
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guitarist for 49 and a half years with Merle
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Haggard's The Strangers. You've played on nine
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gold and platinum albums. Let's go back to the
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start. Before all that happened, you were born
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in Woodville, but you grew up in Farmersville.
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So what type of music were you listening to growing
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up? Well, I was listening to the Grand Ole Opry,
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because at that time, actually, the Grand Ole
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Opry was coming out to California. We could actually
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hear the Grand Ole Opry on Saturday night. On
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a radio show, right? On a radio show. And so,
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boy, all of us was around that radio. listening
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to the Grand Ole Opry, and boy, I was listening
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to those guys playing and singing and all that,
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you know, and I told my dad, I heard Brother
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Oswald, he was playing with Acuff, poor Acuff,
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and I heard that, you know, the six -string slide
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guitar, like a lot of people, you know. But anyway,
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I heard that sound on... you know, the Grand
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Ole Opry. And, man, boy, it just tore my ears
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off. I told my dad, I said, boy, I'd sure like
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to play one of them things, you know. Yeah. And,
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of course, you know, here we was gathered all
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around that radio and listening to the Grand
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Ole Opry. And, boy, I was just in hog heaven,
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you know. Yeah. But anyway, Dad said, well, he
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said, I got to go in and get some. parts for
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the cars out there you know because he had one
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of those lifts you know that raised cars up and
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he'd get underneath and work on them and whatever
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whatever it took you know anyway he said i got
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to go in and get some parts for such and such
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car you know he said but he said he said i'm
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going into visalia and he said they've got you
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know he said they've got a i know they've got
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a music store there and he said i'll see if i
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can find you one of those things Well, sure enough,
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when he came back, here he was, had this little
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Hawaiian guitar. Of course, I didn't know anything
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about it at that time. I never even picked up
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one then. I didn't know exactly how I had to
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work it. But anyway, he said, well, we'll find
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somebody that knows about it. Sure enough, later
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on, there were some people coming through that
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was teaching what they called... Hawaii guitar,
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and so Dad had me go to them, you know, and take
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lessons. So how did you get your first pedal
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of steel? We was playing, even though we was
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going to high school in Las Elia, we got to play
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in this band that they had over there, you know,
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because they came by and asked my dad, you know,
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about it. They said, hey, I heard your son is
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playing. you know, Hawaiian guitar. And he said,
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we're over in Visalia. But he says, we need one
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of them Hawaiian guitar players. Wow. And he
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says, if you could go over to Visalia, he says,
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we can start, you know, playing with the Hawaiian
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guitar in the band. You know, they had all different
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instruments. They even had saxophone players
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and different things. But we was all playing
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strictly country music. So like a high school
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band, but instead of playing jazz or classical
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music, you're playing country. It was country
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music. So anyway, that's what we wound up doing.
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Of course, we was in this place that actually
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an orchestra was set up. But we was playing country
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music, so we was playing all the things country.
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I mean, we would let a saxophone player or someone
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like that in the group as long as they wanted
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to play country. In other words, we'd do all
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the other things, but we'd come in and we'd get
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to do country music for an hour every day. And
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how did you join the Farmer Boys? Well, that
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was later on, of course. Later on? Yeah. You
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know, I was still going to school, you know.
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But the thing was, at that time, they were going
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to school. Well, Farmersville. I was going to
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Farmersville school first before we graduated.
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And they were actually in Farmersville before
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they got to go to high school, too. They were
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like me, except they was going to Exeter High
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School, where I wound up going to, if I tell
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you, because I wanted to play country music.
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Well, they wasn't playing country music at the
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time. You know, they were going to high school.
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But there was a little restaurant there in town
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in Farmersville. And there was a big jukebox
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in there. And a lot of the different ones would
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go over and put money in the jukebox and hear
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that country music, you know. And one of the
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days... One of the guys, he wanted to play one
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of the country things, so he put some money in
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and it started up and everything. And this guy,
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he started singing with a record. Wow. And so
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he was doing real good and everything, and all
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of a sudden somebody in a different location
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started singing too. And they wound up singing,
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and one of them started singing in harmony with
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the other one. And so that's the way they wound
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up being the Farmer Boys. Wow, that's cool. Because
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they didn't know each other at the time. And
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once they started doing that, they got acquainted
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and said, hey, won't we get together and maybe
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form a little group or something? And that's
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the way they got to be the Farmer Boys. Yeah.
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Because they were from Farmersville, so they
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said, let's call ourselves the Farmer Boys. Yeah,
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that's pretty good. So that's your first... first
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band that you were really going out and touring
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with and stuff the first band i think i probably
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went out and played with uh i no i i actually
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went with another group uh you know and and played
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some with other some other bands yeah before
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i got to go with them okay see they they wanted
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me to uh they they later on they was when they
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wound up being being on capital records We ended
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up playing a lot with the Farmer Boys, though,
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and we got to go down to Lancaster. That's where
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I met Barbara's folks and everything, down in
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Lancaster. Because we had a band at that time.
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Barbara Mandrell? Yeah, Barbara Mandrell. And
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like I said, I got acquainted, of course, with
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naturally her dad, and later I got to meet Barbara,
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because she was like 10 years old, but she liked
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the sound of the steel guitar, see? And at the
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time, there wasn't any steel players down in
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Lancaster. So her dad, he was working at Edwards
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Air Force Base at that time. Like I said, he
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was a policeman back in Texas. But once he got
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to California, he wound up working out at Edwards
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Air Force Base as a, I think, kind of like a
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policeman, you might say. But anyway, he passed
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that club every night going to work. So anyway,
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one day he stopped in, because we had a big horn
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speaker out front, and you could hear. what the
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music was inside, you know, when you passed it.
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And he heard me playing the steel guitar. Yeah.
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And he stopped in one day and he said, hey, he
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said, I got a little girl. And he said, she just
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loves the sound of those steel guitars. He said,
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she wants to be able to play one, you know. He
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said, she played a saxophone in school and she's
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good at it. But he said, she still wants to play
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one of them steel guitars. But he said, ain't
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nobody down here that plays one. And he said,
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well, if I could get you to teach her how to
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get started and learn how to play that thing.
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And he said, I'll tell you what. He found out
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we were staying over. We were staying in a motel
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for four nights. And then, of course, we went
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back to Farmersville. on the nights we were off,
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see, because that's where we were still living,
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really, you know, but we'd come down and stay
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at a motel for four nights, and then we'd go
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back home, but anyway, he told me, he said, hey,
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he said, I'll give you a key to our house, and
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he said, when you get through playing in the
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club, maybe you could come and just let yourself
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in, and he said, the next morning, he said, we'll
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have some breakfast, and he said, you could maybe
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show her. how to get started on that steel, you
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know. And so that's the way it started anyway.
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And I'd done that. I'd go, when I'd get through,
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you know, at the club, I'd just, I'd get in my
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car and go to Lancaster. He'd give me a key to
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the house, and I'd just let myself in, go to
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bed, and then get up the next morning and have
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some breakfast. And then I'd start showing Joe
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and Barbara, you know, showing Barbara, you know,
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what. what we could do on that thing you know
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yeah and she went on to be very successful country
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artist herself and playing the steel guitar that's
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so cool that you could be someone's mentor oh
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yeah yeah I mean you know she'd done real good
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I mean I could show her something and man she
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would just grab it real fast and play that same
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lick I showed her or something you know wow and
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So anyway, later on, of course, you know, her
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and her dad, they even formed a band, you know,
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and her and her sisters actually went out and,
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you know, done some playing, you know, of course.
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But later on, she called me up one day and said,
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hey, you know, me and my sisters, we've got a
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TV show that's starting to work down in Hollywood.
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And she said, I'd just like to show everybody
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your talent. She said, you're the ones that taught
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me how to play that pedal steel guitar and everything.
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Of course, she had learned some other instruments
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too, like I said, before all that. But anyway,
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she just told me about it and everything and
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said, I would like for you to come down and play
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on that show with me, me and the sisters. And
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I said, well, I'd sure like to do that, too.
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And she said, well, she said, bring your steel
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guitar. And she said, we'll set up side by side.
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And said, I'm going to play that song. It was
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basically an instrumental I taught her that I'd
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written. Oh, that's so cool. And she said, I
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want to play that song that you taught me. Was
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that Riding the Frets? Riding the Frets. Okay.
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Yeah, that's cool. I heard that song. It's good.
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And anyway, she wanted to do that one. I said,
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well, I'd love to. I said, because I wrote that
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quite some time ago, you know. And she said,
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I sure love that song. Let's just set up side
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by side and play it. And so we done it. And I
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was playing a green steel guitar at that time.
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Double Neck Greens. Yeah. She told me, she said,
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I just wanted to do that song. I said, I don't
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know it. She said, I've just been playing it
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and getting used to doing it. She said, I played
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it for a long time, and I just want to show everybody
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the song that you taught me. That's so beautiful.
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And I thought, well, that's really nice. So we've
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done it on a TV show, just side to side. I don't
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know if you know, but it's actually on YouTube.
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If you put Barbara Mandrell and Norm Hamlet on
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the thing. Oh, I'll have to look that up. Yeah,
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it'll come on there, the thing that we've done
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on there. That's awesome. And I really appreciated
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that for the simple reason that later on, I got
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a thing in the mail, you know, a publishing company.
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They had to pay a certain amount of money. Oh,
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yeah. Because I was working, you know, it was
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a publishing company. It was down in Alabama.
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Because you're the songwriter, you get royalties.
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Yeah, the publishing company was down in Hollywood,
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you know. So anyway, I got a letter. Had me a
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pretty good amount of money. Yeah, that is awesome.
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Yeah, it was really something. Last we were talking,
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you were still in the Farmer Boys, but how did
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you get to Bakersfield? Did you go to Bakersfield
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before you met Merle? Yeah. I went down there,
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and Bill Woods actually at one time called me
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to come down to the Blackboard Cafe. Okay, cool.
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And, you know, to play some steel guitar. I don't
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know if the steel player that had usually done
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that, if he was sick or what, but anyway, he
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called me and asked me if I could come down and
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play steel at the Blackboard Cafe. Yeah, and
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the Blackboard was located at 3801 Chester, so
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a little north of downtown. Yeah, and so I got
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to do that with him, you know, and his band.
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And so anyway... Actually, different ones actually,
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I guess, heard about me or something, you know,
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and they would call me to come and work here
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or there. And I wound up coming down to Bakersfield
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and playing at the, at that time, it was on the...
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Garces Circle? Yeah. It was on the... Are you
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talking about Texas Barrel House? Texas Barrel
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House. Yeah, Texas Barrel House. See, I'm getting
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where I can't remember a lot of the stuff. But
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yeah, it was Texas Barrel House. So I come down
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there and I started working some with Louis Talley.
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Oh, he had Talley Records, right? Talley Records,
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yeah. Him and his cousin, Fuzzy Owen. Him and
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Fuzzy Owen had started a record label. And that's
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what it was called. They called it Tally Records,
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you know. Yeah. And Fuzzy, of course, he had
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already had a thing going, you know. He was going
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down actually to Hollywood, too, and playing
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himself, you know. Like I said, I went in there
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and started playing some with Lewis Tally because
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he had a band in there. and we had a piano and
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drums and bass and lead player. And we had, at
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that time, some of the guys actually were fine
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musicians, actually, because we had George French
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on piano, who was a great piano player, and he
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played a lot on Capitol. Guys that were going
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down and playing on Capitol Records. I mean,
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Bakersfield looked different back then, right?
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It was way different. Oh, yeah. I can't even
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remember all the places that had country music,
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but there was a mess of them. Oh, yeah. There
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was a lot of clubs back in those days. I mean,
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you could just about go to any block you wanted
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to, and there's a country music band in there
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playing, you know. Yeah, there's a ton of them.
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I mean, there was the Honky Tonks that were more
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like bars, and you had the Lucky Spot at 2203
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Edison Highway. Sure did, yeah. And Billy Mize.
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Played there for a long time. Yeah. You got the
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Blackboard that we already mentioned at 3801
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Chester that Bill Woods played there. Yeah. For
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a while. Oh, yeah. We've got the Clover Club,
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which was also on Edison Highway. Yeah. And then
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Texas Barrel House, which is right north of the
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Garces Circle. uh rainbow gardens which was on
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south union some dance halls like the pumpkin
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center barn dance that were kind of like more
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all ages yeah yeah see i got acquainted too with
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uh with merle actually uh when i was still working
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with the farmer boys because fuzzy owen he called
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me and he says hey he said i want to go back
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and visit my folks in arkansas do you think you
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could uh fill in like on a sunday and monday
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I thought about it, you know, because I was still
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working with the farm boys on, you know, down
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on the desert. But I said, well, come to think
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of it, I said, you know, I said, we're working
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Wednesday through Saturday. And I said, I'm down
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in Lancaster, but I said, I can come right through
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Bakersfield going back to Farmersville. And I
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said, I can, I can actually. I'll just get me
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a motel room on Sunday and set my stuff up at
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the club, you know, and play the steel there
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on Sunday. And also, you know, I'll play at that
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club on a Monday. And after I get through Monday,
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of course, I drive back to Bakersfield, you know.
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But anyway, I went in there on Sunday, you know.
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Got ready to set my steel up and everything.
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Got all ready to go. Started looking at some
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of the players that was in the band. Some of
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them I knew. There was one that was playing the
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bass. I'd never met him before. So anyway, I
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got all set up, ready to play. I was playing
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a few things here. Playing a few licks and kind
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of just getting ready to go. So the bass player
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come over and he said, hey, I've never met you
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before. But he said, I'm filling in for the bass
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player. I said, oh, you know, he said, my name
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is Merle Haggard. Of course, I didn't mean anything
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then. You know, this was way before. And so I
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said, well, you know, shook his hand, glad to
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see you. I'm glad to be playing with you. He
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said, yeah. He says, I'm going to be playing
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the bass tonight, and I'll be singing. I said,
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oh, really? That's great. He said, yeah. He said
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they needed somebody to play singer and bass
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player, and so he said, I got them both. He said,
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I'm playing bass and singing. And so he said,
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yeah, I'll be glad to hear you play some. And
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so anyway. Sure enough, you know, he started
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singing that night. And he was, at that time,
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he could actually still sing these different
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songs and sing them just like the one that sang
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them on the records. Wow. You know, he was imitating
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all these other people, see. That's cool. That
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was making a hit, you know. And so anyway, when
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we got through that night, well, I told him,
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I said, man, I said, I love your voice, you know,
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and your singing and everything. And he says,
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well, he says, hey, he says, Fuzzy Owen and Lewis
20:11
Talley, he said, they're going to start recording
20:14
me. You know, and I said, well, boy, that'd be
20:16
great. You know, I said, man, that's what you
20:19
need to do is get out there. He said, I'll be
20:22
doing a recording. They had a studio, you know,
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they call it, you know, naturally the Telly Records
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Studio. It was actually in a garage over at Lewis
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Telly's house. Cool. But anyway, that's the way
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I got acquainted with Merle, see. I'd never met
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him at that time. Yeah. What club was that, did
20:45
you say? That was a lucky spot. Wow. So what
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was it like walking into the Lucky Spot? When
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you walked in, take me there, what did you notice?
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Well, of course, the first thing I noticed was
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the bandstand, because I wanted to get my steel
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and put it on the bandstand, set it up and everything,
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because I was going to be playing that night.
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And like I said, I looked over and... Basically,
21:11
there was Merle, but of course, at that time,
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I didn't know who he was. But then he told me,
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he says, hey, Fuzzy, Louie, you're getting ready
21:22
to record me. And he says, if I get something
21:26
going, he says, you want to go on the road? And
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boy, at that time, I said, you bet. Little did
21:34
you know, that'd be a long road, huh? Yeah. A
21:36
lot of years. Yeah. What was it like performing
21:39
in all these honky -tonks at the heyday? Well,
21:42
back in those days, it was a lot of fun. Like
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I said, the musicians at that time were really
21:48
good. It didn't make any difference which club
21:51
you played at. If someone hired you to come in
21:55
and play in their band, you could just think,
21:58
well, hey, I'm going to have fun because all
22:01
those guys are good musicians. And they were.
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I mean, all the different clubs in town had guys
22:07
that played country music, and I guarantee you
22:10
they played. They were just good, you know. Yeah.
22:16
And this was back in the late 50s, you know.
22:20
Yeah. What was your favorite club to play? Well,
22:24
at the time, you know, I liked playing actually
22:27
the blackboard. Oh, yeah. Which, you know, I
22:30
played later on, of course. I played in Texas
22:34
Barrel House. And that was a lot of fun, too,
22:36
because, boy, the band just drew those people.
22:40
I mean, the place was just packed every night.
22:44
The people loved to come in and dance back then.
22:47
Yeah. In other words, they didn't just come in
22:49
just to get drunk or stuff like that. They came
22:53
in, of course, to have a drink, but they wanted
22:55
to dance, you know, and that's what they'd done.
22:58
A lot of guys, they'd bring their wives, you
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know, and we'd play them some good country music.
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What's the craziest thing you saw happen at the
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blackboard? I heard sometimes it could get rowdy
23:10
in there. Well, when I was working, I didn't
23:13
see anything happening, you know, the blackboard.
23:16
Yeah. But now the... The place. Texas Burial
23:20
House? Texas Burial House. They even had a guy
23:24
that took care of the drunks because, you know,
23:28
they'd start fights in there. Oh, yeah. You know,
23:30
and so he, anyway, like I said, every once in
23:34
a while they'd start a fight up. Of course, when
23:36
they did, this guy, he was a bouncer, I guess
23:40
you would call him, you know. Yeah. And he'd,
23:42
of course, he'd get them. Maybe by the snap of
23:46
the neck like this. Grabbing his shirt. Yeah,
23:50
take him outside, you know, and say, hey, you
23:52
can't stay in here if you're going to do that,
23:55
you know. That was, I think, some of the loudest
23:58
stuff that was going on at that time because,
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like I said, some of those people would, I guess,
24:04
get a snoot full of booze, you know, and start
24:09
a fight or something. I don't know how they'd
24:13
start the fight. They'd get mad at some other
24:17
group or whatever was in there. And anyway, that
24:21
guy, he'd have to grab them and take them outside
24:25
and tell them how the cow ate the cabbage, I
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guess. So by that time, you're playing the pedal
24:33
steel now? Yeah, I was playing pedal steel by
24:37
that time. And that was brand new technology.
24:39
Everyone's still learning it, right? Pretty much
24:42
so, yeah. So you were in Bakersfield and playing
24:45
a lot of different clubs and filling in. How
24:48
did you join the Strangers with Merle Haggard?
24:51
Well, what happened is I was still, of course,
24:56
playing in Bakersfield. But Merle, I'd played
25:00
with him, so he knew how I played. And he had
25:04
another steel player that had been playing some
25:07
things. with him down in capitol records ralph
25:10
mooney ralph mooney and so anyway ralph mooney
25:14
was going back home you know he he just you know
25:17
he said i don't think his wife liked him to go
25:19
out on the road you know and and it's a time
25:22
that was the only time he'd ever been on the
25:24
road actually but uh he kind of liked to have
25:27
a few drinks too on i heard he tried to steal
25:31
the tour bus once yeah yeah that's what happened
25:35
he he started he tried to steal the tour bus
25:39
and go home because he'd been drinking so he
25:41
thought he'd just go home and yeah see mrs moon
25:44
and he'd come back and you know bring the bus
25:48
back and and you know and the only thing is he
25:50
didn't understand that you know you couldn't
25:53
drive they were held back in some i can't remember
25:56
what state it was now but yeah it wasn't a short
26:00
trip But it wasn't a short trip. You can't just
26:02
drive back and see your wife and then drive back
26:06
in time to play the next show. You couldn't do
26:09
that. They actually had snow on the ground. I
26:12
can't remember what town they were in. It could
26:15
have been Minneapolis or, you know, whatever.
26:17
Yeah, somewhere more east. Way back there. And
26:20
he was playing a steel, of course, for Merle.
26:22
He got in the bus. And it had the air brake.
26:26
And so he got behind the wheel. He started it
26:29
up. They always left the key in the ignition.
26:33
So anyway, he got out there, though, and he was
26:36
going to go home and see Mrs. Moon. So he got
26:38
out there and got on the bus and started it up
26:41
and was going to go home and see Mrs. Moon. So
26:44
he put it in gear. And so he started up the front.
26:48
The motel was kind of in a horseshoe, kind of,
26:51
you know, and it was in that horseshoe, but he
26:55
was going to get on the road. So anyway, he got
26:58
up close to the front there and hit the brakes,
27:01
and there wasn't any brakes because you had to
27:04
build up your air. See, he didn't know that.
27:08
He didn't know enough about it. Driving a bus?
27:12
Driving buses, actually. So anyway, he got up
27:14
the front there, and he put the brakes on. And,
27:17
of course, he didn't have no air in the brakes
27:20
because it was air brakes. And you had to have
27:23
air in order to have some brakes. So he got up
27:28
close to the front of the motel. Like I said,
27:31
it's kind of like a horseshoe. And he got up
27:34
close to the front of the thing and started to
27:37
give the brakes. Put the brakes on, you know,
27:41
and there wasn't no brakes. The only thing that
27:45
saved him, it snowed so much there. He hit a
27:49
bank. What he done is he hit the, they had some
27:53
tractors, you know, that was moving all the snow.
27:59
They were putting it in piles. Yeah. And so what
28:02
happened, he seen the pile of snow, so he just
28:05
ran it into the snow. Wow. And so the next morning,
28:10
you know, they were all out there, you know,
28:14
getting something to eat at the restaurant there.
28:16
And so anyway. Merle said Ralph Mooney's got
28:21
to go home. Well, what happened is, you know,
28:25
after he had run into that snow pile, he had
28:28
somebody go get Mooney and bring him up to his
28:31
motel room and tell him, you know, you can't
28:33
be doing that stuff, you know. He said, you and
28:36
I stay out here and play the steel if you're
28:40
going to do this. He got through talking to Merle,
28:42
you know, and Merle just sat and listened to
28:46
him for a little while, you know. And at the
28:49
time, Merle was trying to get him to understand
28:53
that you can't drive all the way out to California,
28:56
you know, and you can't be this way. And he really
28:59
is, I guess, really cussing. Oh, yeah, really
29:04
giving it to him? Yeah, he was really cussing
29:06
Merle out, you know, because the thing of it
29:11
is, you know, Merle was telling him he couldn't
29:13
do that stuff, see? And then the next thing you
29:15
know, he was telling Merle, he said, well, screw
29:18
you. Whoa. And so Merle grabbed him by the collar
29:23
and the belt down here. And run him out the door,
29:32
you know. It's a good thing that he was on the
29:35
ground floor or he'd have probably went over
29:38
there. Oh, no. But anyway, he threw him out the
29:41
door, you know. And so the next morning, anyway,
29:45
is all, you know, getting something to eat in
29:47
the restaurant there. And Mooney come in finally,
29:51
you know, he came in because, you know, he realized
29:53
then naturally that he wasn't going to get to
29:55
go home. But anyway, he came in and he went over
29:59
to where Merle was sitting, you know, and then
30:00
he told Merle, he says, He says, He said, I wish
30:08
you'd open one of them doors. He said, there
30:11
was two doors, and you threw me through one of
30:13
them. And Merle said, well, he said, you deserved
30:17
it. Really, you know. And so anyway, that was
30:21
the last of his day. In other words, that was
30:23
when Merle sent him home and wound up getting
30:27
me to come out on the road with him. So how did
30:30
you feel joining Merle Haggard and the Strangers?
30:33
Oh, I loved it, you know, because, I mean, that's
30:35
what I was hoping I could get to do, you know,
30:37
there. And so, like I said, I wound up, you know,
30:42
getting out of Bakersfield and going on the road
30:45
with Merle, you know. Boy, I was in hog heaven.
30:49
Wow. So you got to tour all over the United States.
30:53
Oh, yeah. We just got to go every place, you
30:55
know. I mean, I got to go overseas with him.
30:57
I got, you know, just every place, you know.
31:01
So. In the first few years that you were with
31:03
Merle, what was your favorite part of that? Well,
31:08
I don't know. You know, I was so glad to be with
31:10
Merle, you know, because I got to be with other
31:13
musicians that were really great. You know, they
31:15
were good musicians. And I just got to be, man,
31:20
I was just in hog heaven, really, because I got
31:25
to be with that group. Because Merle had some
31:27
good musicians at that time. Of course, he had
31:29
Roy Nichols. Roy Nichols is an amazing guitarist.
31:34
Yeah. And I can't even think of their name now.
31:39
Well, the piano player, I think, was with us
31:44
at that time, George French. They were all good
31:47
musicians, like I said, because I was just taking
31:50
his place. Yeah, and after a few months, you
31:54
became the band leader, right? Yeah, I got to,
31:58
like I said, we were traveling around, playing,
32:02
having a good time, and Merle decided he needed
32:05
a band leader, somebody to take care of the band,
32:08
you know. And that's when he called me and Roy
32:12
Nichols up to the, he was in a motel at that
32:16
time, and he called me and Roy up to his room,
32:18
and he... He said, it's between you and Roy.
32:22
And Roy just looked up and said, no, it ain't.
32:25
Because he didn't want it, you know. He didn't
32:27
want to be the band leader. He just wanted to
32:28
play guitar. And that's what he told Merle. He
32:30
said, no, he said, I just want to play guitar.
32:34
He said, I'll tell you what. He says, you know,
32:37
at that time we had an old flex bus. You know,
32:40
it had the round, you ever see that round front
32:44
and round back? Are they the kind of ones that
32:46
look metallic a little bit? Yeah. he told merlin
32:50
he said hey uh he said oh you know at that time
32:53
everybody carried their own equipment out to
32:56
set it up and everything you know this was before
32:59
we got a roadies well we had it later on of course
33:04
we had a sound crew yeah that done all that stuff
33:07
you know but but this at this time you know he
33:10
uh he told merle he said no he said i'll carry
33:13
my amplifier out there and my guitar and i'll
33:16
set it up he said we'll play the show and he
33:19
said i'll get it and i'll take it back and put
33:21
it on the bus and he says then show me my bunk
33:24
because we had bunks on you know on the on the
33:28
bus you know yeah each had you know that time
33:31
we had separate later on of course we had a we
33:34
had to have a Bus that had a lot more bunks than
33:37
we had on that first bus we had. Yeah. You know.
33:41
So what were your responsibilities as the band
33:44
leader? Well, I'm not sure that I had a lot of
33:48
responsibilities, but, you know, I mean, I just
33:50
made sure that everybody had done what they should
33:53
do, you know. I mean, there was this... If someone
33:57
was wanting to drink or something like that,
33:59
and, you know, if we hired some guy or something,
34:02
that's one of the first things I had to tell
34:04
him. I said, look, you know, when we do a show,
34:07
you're going to be sobered, you know. Yeah. Because
34:11
I said, Merle wants everybody to be sober on
34:15
that stage. I said, now, once you get off the
34:19
stage and you get on the bus, I said, you might
34:23
have a drink or two, you know. But I says, when
34:27
we do a show, everybody better be off the booze
34:33
to do the show. I said, he wants everybody to
34:36
be top notch. And I said, he don't want somebody.
34:40
He said, you know, those people, those people
34:43
pay a lot of money to see us do a show. And he
34:48
said, I don't want somebody to be up there and
34:50
be drunk. You know, he said, I want everybody
34:54
100 percent. And he said, you get up there on
34:58
stage. He said, but before we start the show,
35:02
he said, you better not do anything to even,
35:05
you know. He said, I'm not going to have somebody
35:09
up there on the stage that's drunk. You know,
35:11
we're not doing a show. He always figured if
35:14
they get too drunk naturally, they're not going
35:16
to be able to do the show like we should be able
35:19
to do it, you know. Yeah. So anyway, that's the
35:24
way it got started with us. In other words, I
35:27
knew that I had to tell everybody that we hired.
35:31
I told them. I'd tell them. I'd say, look, if
35:35
you go to work with us, Merle wants everybody
35:39
on that stage to be 100 % because he says them
35:45
people are going to want the best we can do.
35:52
And he wants it that way too. So he says, if
35:55
you drink or do any stuff or drugs or stuff like
35:58
that and you do them before the show and you're
36:01
not holding your end up, you ain't going to last
36:06
long. And I'd tell him that too when I hired
36:08
him. So like I said, we had a lot of players.
36:14
A lot of them might be. boozing that a little
36:19
bit but they didn't do it before the show yeah
36:21
and i i kind of had a little thing that i used
36:24
to do too i what i'd do is when i'd hire when
36:27
i'd get rid of somebody i'd usually wind up say
36:31
hey uh so and so you know maybe even want to
36:35
play the bass or whatever you know whatever his
36:37
instrument was i said hey uh won't you meet me
36:39
down at denny's you know And most of them at
36:45
that time, they hadn't went through the deal,
36:47
you know. I'd hire them, not hire them, but I
36:51
would ask them to go to Denny's. I said, why
36:54
don't you meet me down at Denny's? Let's have
36:56
a cup of coffee, you know. So I'd go down, we'd
37:00
meet at Denny's, you know, and have some coffee
37:02
and maybe something to eat even, you know. And
37:05
I'd tell them, I'd say, hey, I've got to let
37:10
you go. They'd say, well. Why? I said, because
37:15
you're drinking. I said, well, he don't allow
37:18
that. And so it got to be a thing. Sometimes
37:23
the guy, if we was hiring a new guy for the band
37:26
or something, some of them would tell him, say,
37:28
hey, if Norm asks you to go to Denny's and have
37:32
a cup of coffee, don't go. Because that's what
37:37
I'd do. I'd just get him to go to Denny's, and
37:41
I'd give him the business. Tell them, say, hey,
37:44
I'm going to have to fire you because I said,
37:47
you've been doing a bunch of drinking or doing
37:49
this and that. And I said, well, this ain't going
37:52
to allow it. If one of them wasn't in that good
37:59
a condition or something or couldn't take it,
38:02
some guys, I guess, they just couldn't give up
38:06
the booze. Yeah. And I just said, I was the one
38:10
that, of course, had to tell them, say, well,
38:11
that ain't going to work out here. You know,
38:14
Merle just don't, he wants everybody on their
38:16
toes. He said he wants them to give the best
38:20
show that they know how. And it's kind of funny
38:23
in a way because later on, you know, we wound
38:26
up getting a sponsor for a liquor company. They
38:31
was our sponsor. Wow. And it's kind of funny,
38:34
too, because what they'd do, they'd bring a whole
38:37
case of their... Yeah, free liquor for everyone.
38:40
Free liquor for everyone. See, I guess they must
38:43
have thought all of us was drinking liquor, you
38:47
know. And so anyway, we'd have a whole box of
38:51
it underneath the bus, you know. And actually
38:55
what Merle would do, he'd wind up giving it to
38:57
some of his friends or people that even come
39:01
to the show. So we had a sponsor there for a
39:05
while, yeah. Let's talk about the Bakersfield
39:09
sound. Now, you're one of the pioneers of the
39:12
Bakersfield sound, and a lot of people argue
39:16
what the definition of the Bakersfield sound
39:18
is. So I was wondering, what does Bakersfield
39:21
sound mean to you? Well, it... To me, actually,
39:25
the Bakersfield sound, we just figured, hey,
39:28
we had great players, you know, and we just went
39:31
down the line, you know, guitar, of course, and
39:35
bass, drums, you know, all of those. You know,
39:38
that was the Bakersfield sound because that's,
39:41
you know, we had a lot of players around Bakersfield
39:44
that played, you know, good country music. And
39:47
so we started saying, hey, we're playing that
39:49
Bakersfield sound. Yeah. That's the way we got
39:53
our, you know. Yeah, one thing I think that's
39:56
cool about the Bakersfield sound that was different
39:58
than Nashville at the time is that the Bakersfield
40:01
sound, Merle Haggard and Buck Owens both had
40:04
their own band, like the Buckaroos or you and
40:08
the Strangers. Yeah. Whereas in Nashville, they
40:11
had like a studio band and they would just change
40:14
the singer. Well, yeah. See, when we went out
40:17
on the road, of course, you know, let's face
40:19
it, Buck and Merle was doing so good. I mean,
40:22
hit records and all this. They kept, you know,
40:25
they kept trying to get Merle and Buck to come
40:29
back to Nashville. They kept saying, hey, you
40:31
guys need to be back in Nashville. They thought,
40:35
I guess, that we just couldn't make a go of it
40:38
in Bakersfield, you know. And the only thing
40:41
is, hell, they was making hit records. He said,
40:44
well, hell, I should be back in Nashville. We
40:47
got such and such going for us, you know. Yeah.
40:51
Basically, what they was doing in a nice way
40:55
was just kind of telling them, stick it in your
40:58
ass, because we ain't coming to Nashville. We're
41:00
doing okay here in Bakersfield. Yeah. But in
41:03
other words, we're making our hits. Why should
41:06
we have to go all the way back to Nashville?
41:08
So he kind of just told Nashville what they could
41:11
do, you know, and the thing of it is, later on,
41:14
a lot of people in Nashville were really irritated
41:16
because what happens is a lot of their side guys,
41:19
see, Merle, he always paid our guys great money.
41:23
In fact, once I got to be the band leader, he
41:26
told me, he called me in fact in one of the rooms,
41:29
you know, on the road, and he said, hey, won't
41:32
you... Why don't you call Nashville and find
41:37
out how much their band members are getting paid.
41:42
And whatever it is, pay our guys double. Wow.
41:46
If you don't think that started some shit, boy,
41:49
I'll tell you. I bet it did. A lot of guys found
41:52
out back in Nashville. we were getting paid double
41:56
what they were getting to go out on the road
41:58
with those guys back there. Yeah. And a lot of
42:01
the Nashville guys were really getting irritated,
42:04
you know. But like I said, that's the way Merle
42:07
was. So he was really nice to his band and, you
42:12
know, people that worked with him or for him
42:14
or, you know, whatever. He was just great to
42:17
be around, actually. That's all there is to it.
42:20
I mean, he was just a great guy, you know. That's
42:23
awesome. So let's talk about some of the music.
42:26
What are some of the favorite songs that you
42:28
have that you recorded? Oh, I'll tell you, boy,
42:31
there's so many of them. Oh, yeah, there's a
42:33
lot. He had written so many good songs, you know,
42:37
and made hits with them. And at the time, I'm
42:42
just, you know, I'm thinking, boy, I mean, you
42:44
know, he's writing them songs and they're making
42:47
hits. And I just, sometimes I just couldn't hardly
42:52
believe it. you know, because he was doing so
42:55
well. And like I said, he was treating everybody
42:57
good and treating, you know, I mean, he was just,
43:03
like I said, he was just great to work with.
43:05
Yeah, I just wondered, like, you know, that one
43:08
of his big hits was Mama Tried, but that one
43:12
doesn't have much pedal steel in it, only at
43:14
the beginning. But is there any songs that have
43:17
a lot of pedal steel that are your favorite because
43:19
you got to play a lot on? Oh, well, I got to
43:22
play on a bunch of them, you know. When Merle
43:25
was writing the songs and he said, I want a steel
43:28
part for this, did you write the steel part or
43:30
did he tell you what to play? How did that work?
43:33
No, usually we'd just go into the studio and
43:36
I'd just play what I played. Oh, yeah, so you're
43:38
improvising. Yeah, we just improvised. He would
43:42
let me play. whatever I had in my head, I guess,
43:46
you know. That's cool. There's one song that
43:49
we've done, though, at Capitol Records, and I'm
43:51
sitting there with my steel, and so we're doing
43:54
this... I'm trying to think of the name of this
43:58
song, but anyway, it's got a thing in it. I wish
44:03
I could think of the song. But anyway, we're
44:06
doing this song, you know, and... The piano player
44:11
is playing his thing, and the guitarists are
44:14
doing their stuff and everything. So when it
44:17
comes time, there's a thing there that we called
44:20
it Batman. Because doing the song and everything,
44:24
and it comes on, Batman. And here I am still.
44:30
I get to play. I tell everybody, hey, I wasn't
44:33
even on that song. I said, I was playing Batman
44:36
with the rest of the guys. So I said, we played,
44:40
you know, we called it Batman because we was
44:43
doing the... Mama Tried sounds like that. Boy,
44:47
I wish I could think of the song. I don't know.
44:52
Boy, it's just... That is it. That's it. Right
45:01
there, yeah. That man right there. Okay, yeah.
45:05
See, I wasn't even, you know, Steele wasn't playing.
45:08
I knew his guitar players, you know. Yeah, I
45:10
don't know every single Merle Haggard song, but
45:12
I knew that one in you. I was like, I can hear
45:15
it in my head. Yeah, see, I couldn't even think
45:17
of it. You know, I'm just getting where I can't
45:19
remember a lot of stuff. That's okay. Plus, I'm
45:22
asking you a lot of questions. Okay, so. Oh,
45:27
I had a question about another song, Okie from
45:30
Muskogee. I've heard people argue if it's a little
45:34
bit a joke or like satire at all or tongue -in
45:38
-cheek. What do you feel about that one? Well,
45:42
I mean, I love the song because, you know, let's
45:45
face it, his folks are from Oklahoma, you know.
45:48
Oh, yeah. And so anyway, he wrote that song,
45:51
you know, because... that's where his folks lived
45:56
you know but anyway what happened is at the time
45:59
we were out there you know even muskogee uh there's
46:02
a lot of those guys that uh uh that were even
46:06
from california and they was they was pissed
46:09
off at merle because he was trying to think how
46:12
how it went anyway anyway they they came to the
46:16
show and then they kind of they came out to the
46:19
buses and they were going to whoop our ass oh
46:22
no Because of the things, the song, the way the
46:25
songs went out in California, I guess. Oh, yeah.
46:31
The ones, what do you call them? Hippies? Yeah,
46:35
hippies. Anyway, what's that song that has some
46:39
of that stuff? We don't... Okie from Muskogee?
46:43
Okie Muskogee. Actually, that's one that I think
46:47
they were really pissed off about because they
46:49
were from California, you know, being in... up
46:53
around san francisco and and they heard that
46:55
song that anyway it it tells in there it kind
46:58
of runs the uh guys that were that are thanks
47:02
to their hippies you know yeah and they would
47:06
they wanted to whip our ass after the show and
47:09
everything you know and we were out there at
47:11
the bus you know and and so anyway uh here they
47:14
come you know the ones that thought they were
47:16
hippies and they was they was going to whip our
47:19
ass you know and finally merle just said hey
47:21
he said it's just a song and he says he said
47:24
i just writing a song and he said i i just he
47:28
said i just love hippies he said i don't i don't
47:31
have no uh bad feelings you know about yeah those
47:36
guys out there you know because they were doing
47:38
what they wanted to do you know anyway he just
47:41
he kind of just calmed them down you know next
47:44
thing you know they're our buddies wow before
47:47
we got out of the before we got out of the parking
47:50
lot you know Going to our next date, a bunch
47:53
of them come up to us and started shaking their
47:55
hands and all that kind of stuff. And some of
47:59
them were from San Francisco. That's cool. I
48:02
thought that was really good. Here we are thinking
48:07
they're going to start a fight with us. Okie
48:11
from Muskogee has been covered a lot of times
48:14
in parody too. Even bands that are like hippie.
48:19
you know, bands like Grateful Dead covered that
48:21
song. Well, hell, the guy that was a leader in
48:26
Grateful Dead was a steel player and a guitar
48:29
player. Oh, was it Jerry Garcia? Yeah, Jerry
48:32
Garcia. I didn't know he played the steel. That's
48:33
cool. He sure did. And the thing of it is, like
48:36
I said, he was a big fan. Yeah. And another one,
48:40
too, Rolling Stones. Whoa, you played with the
48:43
Rolling Stones? We opened the show in Little
48:46
Rock, Arkansas. That's cool. And they actually
48:50
called up. We were on a tour ourself, and they
48:53
called and wanted us to open a show. I think
48:57
it was somewhere in Oklahoma, I believe, or some
49:00
big town, and they wanted us, Merle, to open
49:03
a show. And they called him and said, Hey, can
49:08
you open the show for us? I can't remember if
49:11
it was Tulsa or one of those towns. And Merle
49:17
said, well, I got to check my schedule, see,
49:19
you know. And, of course, he checked his schedule,
49:21
and he couldn't do it because we was working
49:23
someplace else. You know, we was working at that
49:26
time. And so he had to call and, you know, tell
49:29
them and say, no, I can't do it. He said, we're
49:32
working such and such, you know. They understood.
49:36
They said, well, we'll see if we can call you
49:38
some other time. At that time, Earl, of course,
49:41
he thought, well, that's the last time we'll
49:44
hear from them. He thought, you know, we turned
49:48
them down, you know, so they'll just quit. Yeah.
49:51
They won't ask us. But they asked again. Yeah,
49:53
and they wound up. called in again when they
49:56
were doing that show in Little Rock, Arkansas.
49:59
They called Merle and got him on the phone, you
50:01
know, and said, hey, we're doing Little Rock,
50:03
Arkansas. Can you come and open that show? And
50:09
so Merle, he looked at our schedule and everything,
50:12
and oh, yeah, he said, we can do that one. So
50:15
we opened it for the Rolling Stones in Little
50:18
Rock, Arkansas. And come to find out, they were
50:21
big fans of Merle's. And when we got through
50:25
doing the opening and the show and everything,
50:28
we were at a big place, and it was one of those
50:36
outdoor -type things. Yeah, like an amphitheater.
50:39
Amphitheater -type place. But anyway, when we
50:44
got through doing our part of the show, we walked
50:46
backstage, you know. And the thing, it had a
50:49
backdrop on that one. you know if you were out
50:53
in the front of the stage and you look back i
50:58
tried to look back you couldn't you couldn't
51:00
see what was backstage but if you was backstage
51:03
looking out you could see you could see the you
51:07
see the uh all the people and everything all
51:11
the audience yeah all the audience and everything
51:12
wow but you couldn't do that if you was out front
51:16
Looking in, see? Wow. So anyway, here we are.
51:20
We're getting all of our shit out of the way
51:22
so they can start their show and everything.
51:25
So we go backstage, and here's all of them Rolling
51:28
Stones. And we get thinking, well, I wonder what
51:32
the deal is. They pissed off at us or something.
51:37
Anyway, once we all got off stage and everything,
51:43
they were back there. They started shaking everybody's
51:47
hand. Oh, wow. You know, just loving what we'd
51:51
done. They just said, Boy, Merle, you've done
51:54
a great show and all this shit. Merle said, Really?
51:58
You know, and they were just big fans. And then,
52:02
of course, the guitar player, too. He was also
52:04
a steel player. with the Rolling Stones. Of course,
52:09
he came over and wanted to introduce himself
52:10
to me because I was a steel player. We got to
52:14
do some pictures with them. In other words, before
52:18
they started their show, they wanted to take
52:21
pictures with us. So we got to be backstage with
52:26
all the Rolling Stones shaking their hands and
52:29
talking to them and all that kind of shit. That's
52:32
awesome. Yeah. And so anyway, they, of course,
52:35
when it was time for them to get on the stage,
52:37
well, they had to all run and get out there and
52:39
start the show. So anyway, their stage manager
52:43
kind of told us, he said, hey guys, he said,
52:47
boy, that's a first. And we, first of what? He
52:53
says, he said, the Rolling Stones never did.
52:59
I wanted to meet the bands that were opening
53:02
the shows for us. He says, he says, you're the
53:07
only damn band I ever seen that they wanted to,
53:10
you know, get out there and shake hands with
53:13
you and take pictures and all that. He said,
53:15
they don't do that shit. Wow. He says, they've
53:18
done it with you guys. I wish I'd have kept a...
53:21
We all should have kept a... a thing a diary
53:27
yeah you know thing and but you know we just
53:32
didn't do it yeah it's hard to think of it at
53:34
the time you know that's it we at the time we
53:36
didn't we didn't even think about it you know
53:39
later on we all wished that we'd have done this
53:42
or that because you know we could have wrote
53:44
a damn book you know yeah and uh in fact uh different
53:49
ones keep wanting me to write a book too you
53:52
know i'm you know i don't know I've been thinking
53:58
about it for quite some time. But anyway, I don't
54:01
know. I might try to get started on one, see
54:07
if I can remember all this stuff. I mean, you're
54:11
part of the Bakersfield Sound, and because of
54:14
that, you end up representing Bakersfield throughout
54:17
the world. How do you feel being an ambassador
54:20
for Bakersfield? Well, I felt damn good about
54:23
it, you know, because like I said, we did get
54:26
to be, you know, a lot of people looked at us
54:29
as a great group, you know, and a lot of them
54:34
said, boy, we wish we could do it like you do,
54:37
you know. And we just tell them, say, well, you
54:40
know, we just wanted to do the best we could
54:43
out there with the band, you know. Yeah. In the
54:47
future. What are your plans for the future with
54:50
country music? Well, I'll tell you, I'm just,
54:54
I don't know. It's hard to say which way country
54:57
music is going to go. I guess I mean performing.
55:00
You're still performing, right? Oh, yeah, yeah.
55:04
Yeah, like you were playing at the Rustic Rail
55:06
Saloon just recently. Yeah, recently. And like
55:09
I said, I've been going out with Mario Carboni.
55:13
And we've been doing a lot of cruise ships. Cool.
55:16
And we went out on the Columbia River, you know,
55:20
out of Oregon. We got on the Columbia and got
55:28
on that cruise ship there and went for, I remember
55:31
one time we went for 49 days on that cruise ship
55:36
on Columbia. That's so awesome that you're still
55:39
playing country music. And you played with Ernie
55:41
Lewis, too. Yeah. He's very good. Yeah, yeah.
55:44
We played with him. Like I said, we've done a
55:47
lot of stuff with Ernie, you know. And he plays
55:51
the fiddle, the guitar, and the mandolin, actually.
55:55
Yeah, he plays the mandolin, too, you know. And,
55:58
of course, he was, you know, he's done a lot,
56:00
I've done a lot of shows with him here in town,
56:02
and I even recorded some things. Yeah. You know,
56:05
he's got a little studio up in his house, you
56:07
know, on the second floor. That's cool. And I've,
56:10
me and Mario actually both have got to do some
56:12
things in his little studio, you know. That's
56:15
awesome. But like I said, I've done a lot of
56:17
stuff with Mario. Of course, I go up into Oregon
56:20
and Washington and just all kinds of places with
56:25
Mario. I've been back to Texas. He's used me
56:30
on a lot of stuff. So we really had a good time.
56:34
And you have a solo album, right? Yeah. We always
56:38
end the show talking about local music, and I
56:42
was wondering what local musicians do you want?
56:45
the people that are listening to listen to. But
56:47
like I said, once in a while I'll go to different
56:49
places they have here in town. Somebody will
56:53
call me up and want me to play. And if I'm home,
56:56
if I'm not out touring somewhere, I'll just go
57:01
down and play with them. And Norman Hamlet. Norman
57:08
Hamlet. was my steel guitar teacher. When I was
57:12
almost 11 years old, he began teaching me. Do
57:15
you remember writing the frets that you wrote?
57:17
Yeah, I believe so. Uh -huh. I hope you do, because
57:20
we're going to do it for everybody, all right?
57:23
One, two, three.