Latest / The Business of Alignment - Powered by The E1B2 Collective / People First Talent & Retention w/Alexandra Bowden

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People First Talent & Retention w/Alexandra Bowden · The Business of Alignment - Powered by The E1B2 Collective

0:02
All right Alex I appreciate you joining.
0:04
This podcast again or not again for the first time but I
0:08
appreciate you joining overall in this talking and connecting
0:10
again, I'll start this way. All the listeners know, there's
0:15
a heavy dose of solo content over the course of the seven
0:19
hundred episodes, also a nice healthy amount of of interviews,
0:24
but as of late, I've made it a focus and a point to bring more
0:29
guests on again and get some perspective.
0:32
Of a narrative and an Insight, we just wrapped up like a six.
0:36
Part 7 part series of kind of doing like a 2023 wrap up and
0:42
getting like some predictions. Some some, some thoughts and
0:46
unpacking of 2022. So maybe we can actually do some
0:48
of that with you today as well and I'm appreciative.
0:52
So, thank you and let's start this way.
0:55
Give us all a bit of like a 90-second of your background who
1:00
you are. What your work going.
1:02
The company that you're running and we'll dive in.
1:06
Okay. Wow.
1:09
Where do I get 90 seconds? Here we go. 90 seconds 90
1:13
seconds. So my name is Alex Bowden.
1:16
I'm the CEO of people first language mention Consulting.
1:21
I actually strangely enough started my career as a
1:25
professional dancer. So I was classically trained in
1:27
dance. Went to school for dance
1:29
realized it you know could not Not at all, sustain me in any
1:34
viable way. So I went through my own when I
1:36
call quarter life, career crisis and around 25 and made a shift
1:42
into HR on that. I had a passion for talent and
1:47
the process of hiring and retaining talent and how we
1:50
engage them internally with the birth of my son started, feeling
1:55
that pool, that I think a lot of parents experience of wanting to
1:59
really enjoy those young Years and spend more time, so, I
2:02
started my own business around those core Focus areas.
2:07
So, we do a lot of recruitment retention strategy.
2:13
Really people strategy and culture all of it through the
2:15
lens of culture. And that's where I linked up
2:19
with my current business partners, who also have a
2:23
passion for culture, and probably why I'm talking to you
2:25
today. So yeah, I just, I love what I
2:29
do. I love my family and I also have
2:33
a salsa business on the side, my husband and I run a salsa dance
2:36
company. So that's a little random fun
2:39
fact, and kind of round me out. I guess in terms of who I am,
2:45
well, that's pretty interesting. Do you or your husband have any?
2:50
What's the political term to use?
2:51
I'm trying to. I'm trying to be good the right
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way to point out. The ethnicity.
2:56
Is there any Spanish? Neither one of your backgrounds?
2:58
Yes, my husband is from Ecuador. So he came here, when he was 19.
3:03
And he's the one that taught me how to salsa dance.
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So it's been a fun Journey for us to embark on together.
3:09
We really enjoy it. Are you better than him now?
3:13
No, he's insane. He's so good.
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I still learn a lot from him so that's good.
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He has good footwork, huh? Oh my God.
3:22
Yeah, he's incredible. That's good.
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That's good. My my wife.
3:27
She's all mixed up. She's Dominican Russia.
3:32
Ian. But I don't She's mixed up with
3:36
a bunch of things and using. Yeah, she has that background as
3:40
well. So you know, the footwork.
3:41
There is pretty insane. I bet, I bet.
3:45
It's awesome. Yeah, 100% well no, I appreciate
3:49
again, I appreciate you coming on.
3:50
That's a very interesting background and how you got here.
3:53
Let me, let me, let me start this way.
3:57
From your perspective, how long axis do the math?
4:00
How long have you been in h.r.? Like a long has it been since
4:03
you made that transition? Oh, what is the age 8 or 9
4:08
years? Oh, yeah.
4:09
That's right. So when we did the, it's the
4:11
same timeline. That's right.
4:13
That when we first met I, when I, when I asked you off, are I
4:17
remember that context and then the COS it's been about the same
4:19
time line for me. So so here's a question then
4:22
that you may resonate with do you ever feel like, I'm trying
4:28
to remember what the terminology for this is, but essentially, do
4:32
you ever feel like you don't deserve to be here?
4:36
There's people that may like, you ever like ask yourself like,
4:40
like, why are they using? Why are they using my services?
4:43
My products. My initiative is probably
4:46
listening to what's the word for that.
4:47
It's like a second term. Imposter syndrome, Sasha
4:50
syndrome. Do you ever feel better?
4:52
Oh, 100%. Absolutely.
4:56
I mean, I had no, A place starting my own consulting
5:00
company. And if you look at it
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objectively, right? Like, I'm coming from five years
5:04
of HR and it's like, now I'm going to consult but I just I
5:09
felt this draw to do it and I was passionate about it and I
5:12
felt like I had a lot of knowledge and and curiosity and
5:19
obviously the drive to to make it happen.
5:22
But I couldn't constantly felt like, you know, why would people
5:26
listen to me? I'm 34 years old at the time, I
5:32
think I was, you know, 29 like, why listen to me?
5:36
I'm very Junior. Comparatively to people in my
5:39
field and it was a constant Battle of, you know, feeling
5:46
like I belonged in addition to also trying to build a business,
5:49
while being a mom and raising my son and taking client calls in
5:55
the bathroom to avoid, you know, the sound of a crying baby and
5:59
them thinking like, oh, she's also a mom.
6:01
And she can't do her job and can't be devoted to what she
6:05
needs to be. So, there is, there's a lot of
6:07
imposter syndrome happening on all fronts.
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I think it's reduced a little bit since I brought on one of my
6:13
partners Melanie bigger because she brings 20 years of
6:17
experience in the business and that kind of calm that a little
6:21
bit because It allowed me to present us as a more tenured
6:27
united front, but it definitely still persists.
6:31
It's getting a little bit quieter as we go.
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And I kind of see, you know, my skill and action.
6:36
I see like, oh I really can't do this.
6:37
I really am making an impact. I really do know what I'm
6:40
talking about. But yeah, I think it's also
6:44
played with a bit of healthy humility to recognizing.
6:48
There's much that I have to learn and that prize my hungry
6:51
to continue learning. It's not all bad.
6:54
Look, I definitely resonate, you know, I'm, I'm 33 myself.
6:59
So, you know, one year behind you and and you know, you and I
7:02
are both relevant know relatively very young comparison
7:06
to I think a lot of the other business owners or c-suite
7:10
Executives in the HR space and things of that nature.
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But here's something I'll say to you and I've always said to
7:17
myself and there's two different things around this.
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The first is Anyone that wants to start a successful business
7:26
in the services and or product. I think.
7:29
And I believe what I've learned about your business model is
7:32
you, it's not just yourself. You also have consultant, you
7:35
also have a team. And I think what a lot of people
7:39
forget tend to forget, is that you don't have to be the the
7:45
best subject matter expert in the world and then transition
7:48
into being a business owner of that.
7:51
Subject, right? You can be someone that like you
7:54
said, for 56 years in the space, you have enough of an
7:57
understanding of the white space in the areas and the ways in
8:02
which you think you could do things a little bit differently
8:03
and better and then go from being that practitioner to being
8:08
the leader and finding like you were saying, folks that do have
8:11
15, 20, 30 years of experience, or very, very direct subject
8:17
matter. Expertise, and place them in
8:19
place, a place them in the right position.
8:21
Since to have success and you can kind of jump on the backs of
8:26
their expertise and skills and staying in your lane which is
8:29
being a leader, being thoughtful being strategic and and running
8:34
the business. So I don't always believe I
8:36
always hate. When people say, you have to be
8:39
in the industry for 20 years before you can run a business.
8:42
I just don't think that's accurate.
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You know what I mean? No, 1000% angry.
8:47
And I definitely a lien on my team and value my team.
8:51
Mentally, I'm a huge proponent of find people that are smarter
8:56
than you and better than you and many areas around you out and
9:01
you can't possibly be great at everything.
9:03
So, I've definitely seen that kind of natural rise of me.
9:07
Kind of taking a step back out of the day-to-day and really
9:10
focusing on building our own culture internally.
9:13
And helping my team problem solve complex challenges with
9:17
our clients and be more strategic and growing our
9:19
business. And I love that space.
9:21
Case, I'm excited about that space.
9:23
I love the work we do too. But yeah, I mean you can't can't
9:27
be an expert in everything. So definitely agree.
9:29
We have to, you know, share that and bring people on that we can
9:33
learn from and kind of partnering with on things and
9:38
I'll raise my hand to say what's what has been very tough.
9:43
But what's been incredibly exciting is that A lot of the
9:47
people in this space that had been those tried-and-true, HR
9:52
Executives, or leadership Executives that have now turned
9:56
into consultancies our firms or even the folks that are still
9:59
internal would have noticed this.
10:02
There's a lot of the same best practices the same themes, the
10:05
same as same perspectives being swirled around, right?
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And I think, I think for you, and I being I don't want to use
10:13
a jet on the ages and but being Flynn the younger side not being
10:19
in the space for too long were able to look at things from a
10:23
very fresh lens and perspective. And on top of it, we both came
10:27
from different backgrounds. You know, you came from a
10:29
completely different space in an industry and a professional
10:31
Focus, you know, I I started out as a as a founder of a company
10:39
with Under Armour and doing football things, and then
10:42
inevitably made a mistake and it was Anna people sector and
10:45
taught myself. So we both come from from, from
10:48
a completely different world and it could, that's a fresh pair of
10:52
eyes on the same issues, which allows us to build out
10:56
innovative solutions and products and services and attack
10:59
it in a different way, right? Absolutely.
11:01
I mean, groupthink is a thing and I think it's it is, I don't
11:05
want to type cast, but it's definitely harder to break free
11:09
of and look at things through a fresh perspective when you've
11:12
been In and along side of it for many, many years, doing it a
11:16
certain way. So, while that tenure is
11:20
incredibly helpful and having that knowledge source to pull on
11:25
is helpful in many aspects. I think there's also a value of
11:30
diversifying your team and bringing on Fresh perspectives,
11:33
and it's the same as bringing someone in to look at something
11:36
from a completely different angle because they're not,
11:39
they're not bound by the confines of.
11:40
Like, this is how we do things, so they're more likely to
11:43
questions. Kitchen.
11:44
Why? Why do we do it that way?
11:46
I can we try it this way and sometimes it's a good reason, as
11:48
to not and sometimes it's like, oh, I didn't even think about
11:51
that. So there's definitely benefits
11:53
to both and I think that just brings forth and then we both
11:56
have a passion for diversity as well, and in that space.
12:00
And that's our of diversity, right?
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Everybody, bringing something different, they will. 100% a
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question that I had that I just came up with on the spot here.
12:10
My a.d.d. is kicking in You. Have you placed cuz I know you
12:17
do some recruiting and some placement have you placed ahead
12:20
of being head of the eni anywhere.
12:23
I have not I have not and sadly I outside of really large
12:28
companies I don't see that very often.
12:31
That was my mom. Yeah.
12:33
You keep going though? What are your thoughts?
12:34
No, I mean pretty much that I don't I think it's it's
12:39
unfortunate but it's just not where it's almost larger
12:45
companies one they have the budget right and to they're also
12:49
held accountable at a much more Public level.
12:55
So I see those roles within larger companies but smaller
12:58
companies. It's really not at the Forefront
13:02
of their mind or where they want to put their money.
13:05
Not that it doesn't matter to them, but obviously not enough
13:09
to to put someone focused on that.
13:12
So it's a huge old, I would say as an idea, just, if we were to,
13:18
like, bring some something for 12 seconds, I would say that.
13:22
I agree with that narrative and that perspective, you know, a
13:25
lot of the small businesses, let's call it again, 500
13:29
employees or under. Don't have those folks in place
13:33
and frankly. And, you know, this, a lot of
13:36
those companies in that size, don't even always have a super
13:40
strategic HR person in place, which is also an issue.
13:45
So idea that I've been noodling on that, I would love to get
13:48
your thoughts on is, I believe for that structure that
13:52
demographic. If it goes, that range of size
13:54
of companies, I think there could be a, I think that could
13:59
be a fractional, dni firmware. It's a bunch of d&i leaders that
14:04
are Consultants, that have a very strategic capability and
14:07
background. And I think companies that are
14:10
in that small region, should have someone come in on a
14:14
fractional basis, you know, 20 hours a month, 15 hours a month,
14:18
30 hours a month, you know, do a little sick.
14:22
Eight weeks prints every other quarter of things of that nature
14:26
and have some and have some subcontracted, third-party
14:32
fractional head of d&i inside of your business.
14:35
So, we're, it's not a full salary expense, but at least you
14:39
are standing up some programs. Having one, having someone in
14:44
place measuring the measuring that work, maybe even have like
14:48
a little Learning and Development spin on it.
14:49
We are it's like a train the trainer model you bring them in
14:52
for six. Months.
14:53
You helped the HR teams in place, build out a few programs,
14:58
and teach them how to manage and run and measure those programs.
15:01
And then maybe me and maybe kind of exit after that, six months
15:04
and then check in every now, and again, to make sure things are
15:08
running well, because I think a lot of the small businesses
15:13
deserve /, need some of the really strategic D and I work,
15:18
but to your point, maybe they don't have the budget to desire.
15:21
The Bringing someone full time. Would it when you thought that
15:25
like micro idea? Well, what you're describing is
15:28
exactly how we function as a business.
15:31
So it's the same pain point. We're solving of smaller
15:35
companies, not having maybe the budget for a full-time HR
15:39
person, or maybe they have a small team that's overloaded,
15:41
and they'll bring us on to help build out all of those processes
15:46
and their strategies sometimes to train the internal person and
15:50
kind of build them up and help get an issue.
15:52
Moves across the goal line. We've done that for DUI in the
15:56
past but that's kind of phase two of my plan because the
16:01
appetite hasn't been there for it.
16:03
So we do have a deai expert on the team that we contract in
16:08
when, when we need to. But I really I personally want
16:13
to develop that more on our team and I think that's The same pain
16:19
Point you're describing and the solve for is how we function as
16:23
a business. We just haven't been able to do
16:24
it strongly enough for the deai entrance point.
16:29
And so I think it's needed but getting small business owners to
16:35
focus on that has been a huge Challenge.
16:38
And I'm in many of them that, you know, they can't even figure
16:42
out how to solve their most basic people problems because
16:45
they're they're just focused on Trying to do the work and do the
16:49
administrative and do the strategy, and we all the
16:52
finances and they're spread so thin or their heads in so many
16:56
different places. It's almost like it's the last
17:00
thing on their mind and that's not you know good bad or
17:04
otherwise there's a lot of challenges with that but we've
17:08
had a hard time getting people to see the value and the big
17:13
picture importance of putting that at the Forefront.
17:16
So we do it. It in little ways that we can
17:18
and work it in. You know, we do a lot of I call
17:21
a D&E and I light where I do unconscious bias training to
17:25
just even introduced the concept and many of them are not even
17:28
familiar with the concept of how our brains work and how this,
17:33
you know, becomes integrated in every decision that we make,
17:37
without us realizing it. So I don't have an answer
17:42
outside of my, I totally agree with you.
17:44
I see all of that and it's a goal of Art.
17:48
I don't know how we get small businesses to recognize the
17:52
value of putting their money, and their time there, that's a
17:56
code. I haven't cracked yet.
17:58
Maybe there's a Maybe there's a Content play that would work
18:04
whom like a subscription monthly basis and I'm not I'm trying to
18:08
talk it out now and 12 seconds but maybe there's a maybe
18:12
there's an education play, we're on a monthly basis.
18:15
There's there's content available whether that's in a
18:18
podcast space. Pre-recorded videos access to
18:23
online events, / like kind of like a template of tools and
18:30
processes. Processes that are really easy
18:32
and somewhat Elementary, and not too hard to put in place where
18:37
someone can access all that stuff for a reasonably low low
18:41
price, on a monthly basis to kind of to kind of get their
18:43
feet wet, right? To kind of get their, their mind
18:46
starts to shift. Maybe maybe there's a play
18:48
there. I've also thought about this
18:51
too, and then we'll move on to something else.
18:53
I've also thought about are you familiar with like, Are you
18:59
familiar with like the the media company complex?
19:03
No, I'm not or you see when you may recognize or like, well,
19:09
okay, I guess I can explain complex complex is a media
19:12
company that that publishes a lot of content, kind of like, in
19:17
the urban sector. But really, for all things, the
19:19
pop sector. The urban sector they cover
19:21
fashion, they could read music. They cover mental health.
19:25
They cover really like topics that but in a way, that's really
19:31
fresh and new age, and Creative and they, the, the people that
19:37
the interview tend to be athletes or, or Business
19:42
Leaders, or actors, or pundits to kind of like grab the
19:46
attention of your comment of your common, you know, your
19:49
common person to kind of get them like oh look at that
19:52
person. You're interviewing with like
19:53
two things are discussing our really impactful.
19:57
I don't think there's an HR Media conglomerate that is done
20:02
a really great job of making And the topics that we all love and
20:07
care about. Super interesting.
20:09
I have a lot of respect for Sherm.
20:12
I have a lot of respect for a lot of the other certification
20:15
and content generating companies out here, but I'll be very Frank
20:19
and and maybe you don't agree or do agree.
20:23
I don't think there's a company from a media and content
20:26
perspective that's doing it in a way.
20:27
That's cool. That's interesting that like I
20:31
could see a world where there's an event or again, some sort of
20:34
a pike. A store video media company that
20:37
just talks about these people topics in a very cool, creative
20:41
engaging, kind of fresh dope way, and not so much of they
20:45
rigid. I don't know.
20:47
Are you seeing what I'm trying to say?
20:48
Like I think there's a different way to do it.
20:51
No, no, I think you're right. I think the in terms of content
20:57
and content producers in h.r. that goes very fractured, you
21:02
know, there's like Gallup is Good about putting out really
21:08
relevant data. And information on people data
21:12
stream is really good about putting out content.
21:15
That is, you know, technically sound and legally sound
21:19
compliant, and it's a great resource.
21:21
But to your pointer is, there's not much that I've seen, that
21:25
comes out insistently from a Content producer, that's Fresh
21:30
perspective. And you know, a really engaging
21:33
way of talking about people and topics that are that we really
21:39
want to know about. So I don't know, I was come up
21:42
with these ideas. May be something that could
21:44
blend in some music, maybe again, you could bring in, you
21:47
know, bringing you know, coaches of known teams athletes actors.
21:54
Wonder how you know, what's happening in different sectors
21:56
from a leadership and employee experience or team experienced?
21:59
Active, maybe blend in like a little comedic approach to it.
22:03
I don't know. They're just something I think I
22:05
could be done, that could be a little bit more engaging to the
22:11
word of business. That could maybe attract the
22:13
eyes, and ears of the smaller business owners that maybe don't
22:17
have the biggest budgets. And I guess what I'm trying to
22:20
say is every marketing and branding person knows that in
22:23
order to sell something or to push a narrative or to change
22:27
your perspective, you have to Communicate it in a way.
22:30
That's engaging in that's attractive to the end consumer.
22:33
Not the way that you think it should be packaged, right?
22:36
Exactly what are so what's one belief that you feel like what's
22:42
One Core like believe that's like submitted in your
22:46
perspectives that you believe more HR people?
22:51
More leaders should have that. They don't have like which one -
22:55
which one perspective that maybe you're still not seeing enough
23:00
that you really care a lot about that.
23:02
You would even potentially argue over like a Thanksgiving meal
23:06
about. Um, So many Anthony so many.
23:15
I don't know that I would I were arguing over Thanksgiving meal
23:19
about this. I'd probably have to be with
23:20
other HR people. Yeah, that's my penis.
23:22
You know, side. I swear I would say, you know,
23:28
tying to our comments about prioritizing d&i, I think the
23:33
same comes for culture. I think it's still something
23:36
that is like Arts programs in schools.
23:39
Like, we have so much Much scientific data behind it to
23:43
showcase the importance and the impact it has on productivity
23:48
and engagement and tenure and skill development, right?
23:52
Like all of those things. And yet, it's the first thing to
23:57
go and it's the last thing to be invested in.
24:00
So, you know, for example, when we, when we were coming up with
24:06
the game that we referenced in our discussion earlier we We
24:11
asked surveyed, you know, a bunch of CEOs and we asked them
24:16
on a scale of one to five how important our people and culture
24:19
to your bottom line. What do you think their response
24:23
was to that? Bumpers I'm sorry say that again
24:28
you cut out doing a little bit of a cut out.
24:30
What was the question? I said you know when we scaled
24:33
when we asked CEOs on a scale of one to five how important they
24:36
thought people and culture work to their bottom line.
24:38
Yeah. What do you think the response
24:39
was On a scale, 1 to 5. To.
24:48
So it actually was pretty high. It was pretty high in terms of
24:52
like intellectually speaking. Okay, we got a 4.8, okay, so
24:56
most people were whether you know, again from groupthink or
25:02
external pressures or like us just hounding them over the head
25:05
of this is important. They came up with a response of
25:09
4.8 so most people agreed. It was really important to the
25:12
bottom line but then we ask them You know what percent of them?
25:18
Had a financial plan, you know obviously 100% amount of
25:22
financial plan. We asked them, how many of them
25:24
had a strategic plan? 95% have a strategic plan.
25:28
We asked them how many of them had a marketing plan?
25:30
97% had the marketing plan, how many do you think had an actual
25:34
people and culture plan? I'd like a percentage. 20% 30%,
25:44
not many. Yeah, it was 10% less than 10%.
25:47
Hmm. So even though like
25:49
theoretically, a lot of CEOs, are able to understand the value
25:53
and the importance of people and culture, and not just the value
25:58
importance. But literally, impact, the
26:00
bottom line of their business, you know, producing more
26:03
dollars, more Revenue, right? All of those things
26:05
productivity, they none of them have a plan around.
26:10
It will not none of them, but less than 10% of them.
26:12
So, basically, none of them have a plan around there, right?
26:14
So, so why is it? That is the last thing to be
26:17
invested in and the first thing they get it's one of those
26:20
disparities that I can't it just it you know obviously guess me
26:26
on my soapbox and that's kind of what I think you were going for.
26:29
But I really don't understand how we're not solving this
26:34
problem by. Now, this is not new information
26:39
and it's a huge gap in In our leadership, in terms of where
26:45
we're investing our time, and our money, and we've seen, you
26:50
know, Improvement in dividends when it's done properly.
26:53
But it's still such a hard sell and I do think there's a lot of
26:59
people that do culture poorly in terms of, you know, we think of
27:04
culture as this great Rebrand of like, here's what we stand for.
27:08
And we put it on the wall and we change our colors around.
27:12
And a little bit and we do not want a mouse pad and like, great
27:16
that didn't change any of our problems.
27:18
It didn't solve anything. And the reality that I think you
27:23
and I understand is it's much more than that.
27:25
You have to take it at least 10 steps further of, how do we
27:28
translate this into driving behavior and changing behavior?
27:33
And that's where I think we haven't quite cracked.
27:36
The code of enough people doing culture well, and being able to
27:40
drive and change Behavior. That then impacts productivity
27:44
and then impacts the bottom line.
27:45
It stops nine steps short. And therefore, it's this common.
27:50
Recurring belief that, you know. Yeah, people are importing my
27:54
bottom line, but this culture thing is Fluffy and I can't get
27:57
it to stick. Here's one perspective.
28:02
I'll have one that I think. And this is something that I've
28:07
noticed from like a I don't want to use to work common sense but
28:10
like up from like a human behavior perspective and like an
28:14
age perspective and I hate to bring agent to it but hopefully
28:18
you'll follow along with this perspective.
28:23
The companies, the largest companies in the world, even the
28:27
small businesses right now. The majority of the time that I
28:30
would say, the CEOs and sit at the top, the cease to eat that.
28:33
I would sit next to the top are in the age bracket.
28:38
We're a lot of the work that we're doing in dni in culture
28:43
and the innovative ways to do. So, they don't come from that
28:47
world. And so what I think is going to
28:50
happen unfortunately is we're going to still keep seeing this.
28:56
This this friction from a change management perspective from a
29:00
change of thinking perspective, from a from folks still finding
29:06
it very difficult to wrap their head around this work.
29:08
But as and I don't mean this to turn this, into this dark gloomy
29:13
podcast, but but as some of those leaders obviously go up in
29:17
age and go through the normal life process and move on.
29:20
And we have leaders that are now, let's call it in their 20s
29:24
and their 30s that are going to now be in their 50s and 60s.
29:28
So let's look out, maybe 15, 20 years.
29:30
I think the word of work is finally going to catch up to how
29:33
you. And I are thinking about it.
29:35
I think, I think a lot of a lot of Of what's happening.
29:39
Is the decisions that are being made the people that have the
29:42
power and the money to make the decisions are again in that in
29:48
that thinking in that age, where that's not how we were taught.
29:53
And we got to this point doing it our way and it didn't evolve
29:57
it didn't evolve in. It didn't involve all these
30:00
things that you're alluding to you know Anthony didn't involve
30:03
all these things. You're alluding to Alex.
30:04
Yes. These things are important.
30:06
Now to some of the folks that were high And that's why we're
30:09
even considering this conversation or even hearing you
30:11
out, but we're not going to start spending an awful.
30:15
You know, we're not going to try spending a new amount of money
30:20
time energy and resources into this work because what we've
30:25
been doing is our tried-and-true.
30:28
So I don't know if you agree or with that, but I just think in
30:30
20 years we'll probably see something that looks a little
30:33
bit more. Like, what we are, hoping we
30:35
would see. Now I definitely think that's
30:37
true. I think.
30:38
It's it's Natural Evolution, really?
30:41
I'm a different generational priorities and you know what
30:45
shapes us priorities for sure and Outlook, but I'd like you're
30:50
peeing on different angle because you know, that's one
30:54
component. The other component that we see
30:56
is people that are ready to invest in culture but they're
31:00
not actually ready to do the hard work to change and that is
31:05
come up quite often where we're brought To a company.
31:09
And the leadership is saying, you know, we've got XYZ problems
31:14
and we need you to fix these problems and so dysfunctional.
31:17
And you know, we're investing in you, make it happen, right?
31:21
And the problem comes back to you know, something trickling
31:24
down from leadership and it becomes 8.
31:27
Okay, well, this is now not just a employee problem conversation.
31:30
This is a you problem conversation.
31:33
How do we solve that? No, no, yeah, we're not going
31:36
there, right? And that's a that's a same.
31:40
That's a human problem, right? So so, so you're totally right?
31:45
And that generationally it will resolve itself on one aspect in
31:50
the other aspect. I don't know how it will resolve
31:52
itself because that is a human problem of not being ready or
31:57
willing to look internally and realize I'm part of the problem.
32:02
And what do I need to do to change?
32:04
And I've been watching this show, I don't know if if you've
32:09
ever heard of is called crazy. It's a really, you know, kind of
32:15
musical dramedy it. Tackles a lot of really
32:21
important themes, and one is mental health and this, this
32:26
main character is going to therapy over and over again
32:29
throughout three seasons. And the therapist is just
32:32
getting so frustrated because she's sitting there going
32:34
through the motions and not actually listening to anything
32:37
with therapist to say, yeah, she continues.
32:40
These, you know, in these delusions and these behaviors
32:44
that are really not working out well for her until she finally,
32:49
hits rock bottom and recognizes that something needs to change,
32:53
and it really is her. And then, then that therapy
32:57
starts to help, right? So, we've noticed the same thing
33:02
with our clients and that many times.
33:05
They're not ready and they bring us in with the best intentions
33:09
and they're not ready to receive our help.
33:10
And we've actually had to remove ourselves from situations there
33:15
because it's, I'm maybe to ethical and that I refuse to
33:20
take people's money, just take people's money, Riley.
33:22
If I can't help you, I'm not going to keep going in this
33:26
relationship, you're either not willing or you're not ready, and
33:28
I'd be curious to hear your perspective of, you know, how do
33:31
we things that? Have you seen that in all of
33:34
your Like, when you're with your businesses and how do you
33:38
approach that? Well, I'll start the ladder
33:41
first. I approach it the same way
33:45
whether it's beyond brand Beyond resume.
33:47
All miss. Any company, we won't work with
33:52
a client. We won't put a product in place.
33:55
We won't, we won't do anything. If I don't generally believe
34:00
that they understand and believe in the work that we're doing and
34:04
are willing to really do the hard work.
34:05
Their number one and and frankly we've done a really good job of
34:11
building a system where we vet that throughout the negotiation
34:15
process. So there are questions that we
34:19
will ask throughout that. Throughout that process we are
34:22
will know the type of person they are prior to prior to even
34:28
getting into the business and actually doing the work because
34:31
I've had the same issues. We are we were inside of a
34:34
business. And, you know this game, right?
34:37
You know, there's a healthy amount of money on the table,
34:41
the draw that you pull yourself from that potential client and
34:45
that deal puts food in your kids, mouths and allows you, and
34:50
your husband to have a nice night out, or a new purse, or to
34:54
pay a bill, and then on top of all of that, you have employees,
34:58
or you have subcontractors, are you have P.
35:01
So, it's very difficult because when you get it, and people know
35:04
this, this but don't want to talk about it.
35:06
When a new deal comes in place, you are already starting to
35:10
strategically map out, okay, what's going to be put towards
35:13
taxes, which going to be put towards Revere of, and
35:16
reinvesting in the business, which going to be put towards my
35:19
own bills are? Is this enough to cover the
35:22
teeth like, like your strategically, navigating that
35:25
and then, but to make the Bold decision to move on from an
35:29
opportunity. Once you're already in, it takes
35:33
a lot of guts because you've already done that thinking.
35:36
And so, that's one thing that we have done is we've tried to
35:40
create questions and situations where we try to really
35:44
understand the behaviors in the mindset of the client prior to
35:49
even walking in so that we're not wasting our time.
35:52
But even before that, what I will say, I've always agreed
35:56
with you. We're I believe the real core
36:00
issue. Are the psychology of the human
36:05
beings running these businesses and that can derive from a lot
36:10
of places that maybe we don't even want to touch on today's
36:12
episode that can derive from parenting that can derive from
36:18
their upbringing, that can derive from their first
36:23
internship. When they were fresh out of
36:24
University and Greta or grad school that can derive from
36:28
whoever was their mentor and their coach and How they looked
36:32
at things and the potential issue that they faced from a
36:37
relationship perspective, or parenting perspective or
36:39
upbringing perspective. We're talking about real mental
36:44
health, issues of leaders. We are, you know, so I've been a
36:48
big proponent of saying Psychologist in Psychology and
36:55
therapy. Needs to be a bigger focus and
36:59
just another kind of shark tank idea that just popped up now is
37:03
I think there could probably be some sort of a license mix
37:10
between a life coach, you know, Therapy Group and psychology.
37:15
You know, psychologists that primarily just works with
37:20
leaders. Yeah.
37:22
Even works with, you know someone that's not you know not
37:25
formal like a non professional perspective but literally just
37:28
works with leaders to to unpack and be punked and not on me so
37:31
much like a Tony Robbins way but but really at like a scientific
37:37
perspective we're where they look at some of the leaders
37:41
decisions and they can map it all the way back to Childhood
37:44
nap. It all the way back to First
37:47
Partners map it all the way back to whatever it's going to be
37:51
right? So I agree with you with all
37:53
that. Yeah, I've been telling my team,
37:56
I think the next tire we need to make is an IO psychologist.
37:59
Just, you know, just to be able to really diagnose these things
38:02
sooner, and use leverage data to come up with some ways forward.
38:08
But, but, even just thinking through, like how, we, how are
38:12
we managing Wellness in our organizations and particularly
38:16
mental health, we know that the pandemic has taken an immense
38:19
toll on Mental Health. People are still Recovering from
38:23
it. Some people Avenue and broach,
38:25
the subject of addressing the mental health, they experience
38:29
throughout it, we're still dealing with burnout, right?
38:31
So all of these things in these plans I think I'm seeing more
38:37
companies, offer eaps, that allow you know, support of the
38:41
financial investment in seeking help and support and therapy and
38:47
coaching counseling. But I would like to see
38:51
companies really Best more in having you know, someone
38:56
fractionally or on their team are on site twice a week or
39:01
every other week at whatever that is like make that part of
39:03
the Wellness Plan, because I think it's the leaders need to
39:06
benefit from that and the employees need to benefit from
39:09
that. And it's it's going to be a
39:12
bigger part of the conversation, if not.
39:15
Now, even though it should be soon because I think we're
39:18
really starting to feel the impact Act of mental health on
39:24
our ability to show up to work every day and to build our
39:26
businesses successfully and to leader live successfully.
39:31
And that intersection is becoming much more Profound, I
39:39
think, in our, in our conversation, you know, it's no
39:41
longer work and life. It's it's the whole person may
39:45
be talking about bringing yourself to work and that tag
39:47
line for, you know, ten years now.
39:50
But I'm actually starting to see that blend and I, that's one
39:55
refreshing thing that's come out of.
39:56
The pandemic is starting to really intertwine those
40:02
Concepts. So, yeah, ever said, Here here
40:08
will be my final question. I don't want to hold you too
40:10
long here, but I want to do, I want to kind of understand your
40:13
perspective on this as well. What are your what are your
40:17
strategic, considerations thoughts, advice pertaining to
40:22
like development of anyone? That is a part of the hiring
40:27
process. That's a piece that I don't see
40:30
enough of. So what I mean by that is there
40:33
are so many firms consultancies. Information.
40:38
We are people are discussing strategies and tactics around
40:44
hiring. I'm even one of them right now.
40:46
We created Beyond brand we talked about that.
40:48
All flying here what but what? I don't think we're seeing
40:52
enough of is what are your thoughts, or strategic
40:55
considerations around. Developing the the mindset, the
41:00
psychology, the Strategic thought patterns, right?
41:04
The Frameworks around how to even approach.
41:07
Ouch hiring how to approach some of these strategic decisions
41:12
that are made like like I don't know about enough people that
41:16
are working on, that change management leadership coaching
41:21
from again from the thinking. The the mental Frameworks, the
41:24
mental models of those that are in those hiring positions,
41:27
whether it's a recruiter, I had of talent, a business, small
41:32
business owner, what are your thoughts and all that?
41:35
Now, I mean, that's That's where we live.
41:38
That is always been huge. Focus of mine, really?
41:42
How do we identify the source of these challenges and, and go to
41:47
the source and not just resolve the symptoms and and that's,
41:50
that's what you're speaking to in my opinion is how do we
41:53
really get people to understand? You know why the strategy is
41:58
plays? Why they're asking certain
42:00
questions what they're looking for in response how our bias use
42:04
impact the way we perceive that Ponce.
42:07
Right? How we use these incredible
42:09
tools that are out there right now.
42:10
Like what, like, what you mentioned with the Ombre and
42:12
right? There's incredible tools to
42:15
reduce spices in the process, but then I hear leaders using
42:20
that as an entire decision-making components.
42:24
Like know that. That's, that's meant to be a
42:26
piece of the puzzle, you know, like so how do we train people
42:29
and understanding how that integrates with the hiring
42:32
process and using it properly? So one of the things that we do
42:36
is really From added to the lens of.
42:39
We do unconscious bias training with leaders, so they understand
42:42
how that impacts how they show up in an interview.
42:46
They're perceiving responses in an interview how to design
42:50
things to bring in more objectivity in the process.
42:54
We do the culture work up front where we're helping them
42:58
identify, what is it exactly that you're looking for?
43:01
And let's all get on the same page and let's be very clear and
43:04
specific about defining those behaviors because What we had
43:08
talked about the be like, what Integrity or customer service
43:11
means to one person, might be defined a little bit differently
43:13
by somebody else. And then you've got all of, you
43:17
know, these arbitrary decisions being made based on the person
43:21
that's sitting in front of you. So we're trying to leverage as
43:26
much as we can, with our clients, in training them, and
43:31
helping them understand the thought process behind things,
43:34
and helping them understand the science behind Ring in evolving
43:39
their process to support. You know, objectivity in, how do
43:44
we use these incredible tools out in the market and AI on the
43:47
market and these IO psychology tools event people properly.
43:53
And how do we also understand how our own biases come into
43:57
play? And how we understand what were
43:59
you even looking for? Not just what I like, what is
44:03
mighty need? What are the gaps that I have?
44:07
To diversify my team from those strengths perspective, even or
44:10
skills perspective and how does the poster component of how
44:14
they're going to act in the organization come into play?
44:18
There's a lot of teaching and education needs to go into it
44:22
and I agree. I don't think there's enough
44:24
people focusing on that and it's again, one of those things that
44:29
is not at the top of people's mind to invest in, but it's
44:32
solving, you know, the true core of the problem and not just
44:37
Treating the symptoms that I think is what we all really need
44:40
to be focusing on 100%. Well, this is this has been an
44:44
amazing conversation. I think there's a lot of good
44:46
here that a lot of folks, and take away.
44:49
What up? Which one?
44:51
Final thought on? What's going to be a focus for?
44:54
Not only you, but you think the focus for the world in 2023 and
44:58
then plug anything you want to plug and then we'll get you out
45:01
of here. I think a focus, I think the
45:06
focus is really going to be put back on people and I think in a
45:13
way that's may be dictated by the market and it's kind of what
45:20
we saw in 2008, right? We were kind of went through a
45:23
recession and then it was we can't find people.
45:27
So now we're going to make the changes necessary to be able to
45:30
hire people. We want Andy Even though it's
45:33
unfortunate that you know it takes companies sometimes to be
45:36
backed into a corner to do those things.
45:39
Do you see that happening? I hoping that if there is a
45:42
resourceful in a lot of layoffs and it becomes a pretty hefty
45:47
candidate pool that we don't reverberate back because the
45:51
changes that are coming out of covid and and being out being
45:55
opened, things like remote work and hybrid and flexible
46:00
environment is really important. So I'd like to see us continue
46:05
to do that. I'd like to see more HR business
46:09
partners, and entrepreneurs and Leaders with with voices, and
46:13
platforms taught, the importance of that and Champion that for
46:18
those that are not convinced yet and I'd like to see more culture
46:23
work. You know, what you're doing is
46:25
fantastic and the AI, and the different businesses that you're
46:29
running in, these platforms are are what we Need, we need more
46:33
Progressive tools. We need different ways of
46:36
looking at things and all through the lens of culture and
46:41
people. And I think it's it stinks up a
46:45
lot with What we're focused on which is changing the way people
46:49
work for the better, right? We're spending most of our time
46:52
at work and I think we need to have environments that bring out
46:56
the best in us and the business only benefits from that.
47:02
I love that. I love that.
47:04
So, this has been amazing. I appreciate you joining the
47:06
show and we will definitely be catching up and talking soon.
47:11
Awesome, thanks for having me. Thank you.