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#86 (Take 2!) Identity and Belonging in College Sports · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

College Is Fine Podcast (00:00) Liz, I'm going to do the intro. Liz has been really good. Usually I have to do the intro, but she's stepped up to the plate and she's done a lot of the entries lately, but I know, yeah, this one I'll, I'll do since I know you. College Is Fine Podcast (00:05) but this one I'm gonna I'm going to punt back to you. No pun intended. College Is Fine Podcast (00:12) ⁓ Liz! Wow! Woohoo! You're on fire this Monday! Buckle up Tess! College Is Fine Podcast (00:15) So, so, so funny. College Is Fine Podcast (01:07) So today we have two people who are virtually streaming from Nashville. I'm so excited to have someone in central time. We have Dr. Tess Kilwine, who I just, we just randomly, I guess I kind of stalked you a little bit. We started our private practices around the same time in Nashville. And we're excited to have a community here of people who could just get together and understand what the other person was going through day to day. can be. College Is Fine Podcast (01:14) yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (01:33) sort of a lonely profession when you're in private practice. So it's been such a great time getting to know her, but I will always also say that, ⁓ you have a skillset and an area of expertise that I think is so important. And so when we started to think about how to consider the mental health of all athletes, right. ⁓ I felt it was really essential to grab you and give some of your expertise to our our college students, so why don't you introduce yourself? Dr. Tess Kilwein (02:02) Sure. Yeah. So I'm Dr. Tess Killein and I'm a clinical sports psychologist based out of Nashville, like you said. I work with elite athletes all across the country. So I am based in Nashville, but a of my work is virtual. And ⁓ my practice really focuses on creating these trauma-informed, identity-affirming environments for athletes. So I work with lot of athletes that while they are expected to be high performers in their spaces, they also often hold identities that have been historically marginalized. So I primarily focused on working with LGBTQ athletes, but also those who've experienced identity-based marginalization across disability, race, ethnicity, geography, whatever it may be. College Is Fine Podcast (02:42) Yeah, and we've had a few, and I think really important episodes around the student athlete. I think there's something that, you know, there's double dose maybe of pressures to experience and certain things that they are managing that's really important, but we really hadn't talked about the identity aspect, you know, and how that is encompassed. So when we talk about athlete wellbeing, College Is Fine Podcast (02:49) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (03:05) What do you think is different or overlooked when athletes identify as LGBTQ plus? Dr. Tess Kilwein (03:11) Yeah, I think that's a great question because LGBTQ and other minoritized athletes are managing two things at once. So they are expected to perform at these really high levels. They face the same pressure of sport that everyone else, all other athletes face. And then they have this added layer, this added question about identity safety in their environment. So when an athlete is expected to perform at this really high level, but then they're also constantly wondering. whether their teammates or their coaches or their administration are going to accept them or whether these comments that are made in these environments apply to people like them, that mental energy that it takes up comes at the expense of not only wellbeing, right, but performance. We know that, we know it inhibits people's ability to perform and thrive at the best version of themselves. So, you know, we have a really good model for this research on minority stress theory just shows that College Is Fine Podcast (03:53) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (03:54) Hmm. Dr. Tess Kilwein (04:03) when they're faced stigma, when they're having to conceal their identity, when they face discrimination in these environments, they are at risk for things like anxiety and depression and burnout. So not only when we work with athletes are we focused on these mental health aspects, but also on mental toughness and resilience and all of these things that make performers great. you know, these athletes have to constantly wonder is their environment psychologically safe for them to live and compete? College Is Fine Podcast (04:28) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think that is ⁓ an area that we have definitely not talked about or considered. And I think it's ⁓ a difficult topic for athletes to be vulnerable about, right, given the current larger cultural, socio-cultural factors and then within like the sports community in terms of ⁓ I imagine it's an area that is kept hidden, right. ⁓ And something that they're not really discussing. ⁓ Can you talk a little bit about maybe, you we talk a lot about dialectics in our podcast. Yeah. And I just think like, I think, you know, I can see both sides in terms of sports being a place for a sense of belongingness, right, amongst these marginalized populations. College Is Fine Podcast (05:04) Look at her smile. She's like, ⁓ yeah. We all love those dialectics. Dr. Tess Kilwein (05:05) you College Is Fine Podcast (05:20) and an area of like intense vulnerability. And why do you think that is and what are you kind of seeing in terms of both of those sides? You spoke a little bit about some of the vulnerability factors that contribute, but yeah, a little bit more about that. Dr. Tess Kilwein (05:33) Yeah. And that's why I smile because I love this question because far too often when we're talking about LGBTQ athletes or those who hold other minoritized identities, we're talking about it from a deficit framework. Like what's wrong? What's hard? What's bad? What's difficult? But sport can also be a really healing place, even for women, right? We talk about female athletes. College Is Fine Podcast (05:46) Mm. Yeah. Dr. Tess Kilwein (05:54) With all of the challenges that come with sport, it also can be a really healing and corrective experience for these athletes. They can be equally enriched in these environments. how that happens is teams create these really intense social bonds. There's just nothing like a sports team, right? When that culture of the team is supportive, we know that athletes often describe being on a team as a family, right? And those bonds become lifelong for people. So at the same time, of course, that level of closeness can make things like discrimination or rejection feel really, really high stakes. Because when that is your family, when it is the people you're spending every day in and out with, you know, if you College Is Fine Podcast (06:11) Mm-mm. Mm. Right. Dr. Tess Kilwein (06:36) believe that your identity could affect your place on the team, should people become aware of it and they're going to feel less comfortable around you, they're going to make more comments, they're going to reject you. That environment that is supposed to bolster belonging could really shift a vulnerable really quickly. So there's both sides of it. These supportive environments can be really enriching for athletes. They're uniquely vulnerable if something goes wrong in that environment. College Is Fine Podcast (06:54) Right. College Is Fine Podcast (07:00) I think about the psychological toll of being sort of the quote unquote only, you know, identified minority or person on the team. ⁓ How do you feel like things like team norms or locker room culture, language affect athletes, even when the harm isn't necessarily intentional, but maybe just part of this long standing culture? Dr. Tess Kilwein (07:19) Yeah, mean, immensely. think to a huge degree, I remind people that I have this conversation with all the time that it is a collection of the very small things that ultimately create these trauma-informed and identity-affirming environments for athletes. the same is true in the opposite. So this language, even these small comments, signal whether an environment is safe for an athlete or not. College Is Fine Podcast (07:32) All right. Right. Dr. Tess Kilwein (07:45) So even when it's these jokes or these casual comments, they communicate whether an athlete who's holding one of these identities is going to be respected and included on their team. So when that harmful language, even if it feels small, it goes unchallenged and it happens time and time again, athletes ultimately receive a message that they're not gonna be fully accepted, that these parts of themselves are not. safe to be shared and expressed in this environment. So ultimately, they're less likely to come out or seek support when they do need it because of the additive effect of these comments over time. College Is Fine Podcast (08:17) Hmm. Yeah. So on that matter, you use the word acceptance. So let's talk a little bit about that in terms of, you know, why does acceptance matter? You know, I think both from a mental health perspective, I'm assuming it also influences athletic performance ⁓ and on the player, teammate level, but maybe as well as the coach level. Dr. Tess Kilwein (08:35) Sure, yeah. mean, coaches themselves, they hold a whole lot of authority over their athletes, even if they don't necessarily try, right? They make major decisions about how an athlete spends some of the most important years of their lives, right? Decisions about their playing time, their standing on the team, the experience they have while they're in that sport. But it's the teammates that really shape the daily environment and encounters across that space. So. Athletes spend most of their time with their peers in their locker room, traveling, training. They often, especially in college, live together and spend a lot of their social time together too. And so if that peer space is one of acceptance, that determines whether an athlete feels safe and supported both within sport and outside of sport. So it's sort of like it models what healthy relationships are going to look like. And if your teammates that you're spending every moment with are shutting down these comments and they're there for you and they accept you, that is gonna make an athlete better able to just live and thrive in all spaces of their life. Whereas if that environment you spend so much time, you're having to hide parts of yourself, it's gonna be really hard to express yourself in any space, which is really, really immensely impactful. College Is Fine Podcast (09:49) So what are the, you know, I think about there's sort of proactive and reactive ways to accept or to have ⁓ an informed acceptance of all players, right? And one is like, with this person has come out on our team. And so we want to make sure that they feel really respected and accepted. And then there's the other sense of just, Hey, we want to put that language out in the atmosphere. because we actually don't know what all people are coming through. We want to just have a sense of respect in general, right? And so I think about that a lot where it's not so much like, hey, wait for this person to do so and then start to support is the way I see it. ⁓ But what do you think, you know, some specific actions, both, you know, from players or from coaches? College Is Fine Podcast (10:19) Mm-hmm. Right. College Is Fine Podcast (10:35) that could be either like, once you know this is happening, how can you adjust and make sure you're being affirming? But also are there things you can put out there just because that's a good thing to do for all teammates, right? What are you thinking about some specific language or actions people could do if you're on a team or you're a coach? Dr. Tess Kilwein (10:53) Yeah. I love that you use the term preventatively because I think that's what this is. Be preventative, most importantly. Don't wait until an athlete has experienced a major violation or marginalization to then say, OK, well, we're accepting and we want to correct it. So coaches play a role in setting the culture and the expectations for their team in lots of ways. They often focus more on, you know, College Is Fine Podcast (11:05) Mm-hmm. Dr. Tess Kilwein (11:18) the time requirements, the conduct requirements, but this should be part of those conversations. So when coaches are setting these standards, they often do it in written ways, right? Like your athletes are required to sign sort of like a team cultural code of conduct, but at minimum it happens verbally. So coaches can set these expectations about respect in the way that they, you know, talk to and about their athletes. So not only is it what you're expecting the athletes to do, but how the coaches use their own language, how they interact with people. And when there is a culture of respect, even removing specific identities, when there's a broader culture of respect that we don't talk about people in degrading ways, we don't make these kinds of comments, ⁓ that is going to impact the team culture and environment for everyone involved. So coaches play a role in I think interrupting harmful language, right? It's easier for a coach in a room of teammates to interrupt the hard comment. And that's both on their team when they say it, but also in athletic environments more broadly. So there's a lot of institutions where we have teams that are generally supportive and these things are talked about more openly, but they operate in these bigger systems of athletic departments and organizations that sometimes that climate is not matched. College Is Fine Podcast (12:10) Right. Dr. Tess Kilwein (12:30) So coaches have this unique layer of responsibility that they are responsible for their team, but also how they operate in these larger systems that they hold more power than their athletes. So it's how they, you know, interrupt these, this language more broadly. They also can communicate that queer and other marginalized athletes belong on the team in explicit ways, like holding pride games or, you know, celebrations or acknowledging these important moments. College Is Fine Podcast (12:32) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Dr. Tess Kilwein (12:57) You know, the things that we talk about using pronouns in your signature and saying athletes belong here. You can do that without knowing that someone on your team holds a particular identity. You should. Because when you signal that, then those actions show, okay, if you do have one of those athletes or an athlete comes out during their time in college, which is not uncommon, that they know they're going to be safe. They're going to have a safe landing place on that team. College Is Fine Podcast (13:02) Yeah. Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (13:07) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (13:13) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dr. Tess Kilwein (13:21) When coaches model this inclusive behavior, it just establishes team norms really quickly and athletes tend to follow. We know that, we know from lots of literature that what coaches determine on their team as a culture is what the teammates adopt and how they treat each other. College Is Fine Podcast (13:35) Yeah, I like that just because it's like, is that like, Oh, Oh, we have somebody who's identified. Oh, so let's, let's start being respectful guys. And if that person graduates, we'll just go right back. No, it's like, you will have someone on your team who identifies this way. Like this should just be the base layer. College Is Fine Podcast (13:43) Yeah. Right, right. OK, I don't want to bring up heated rivalry, but I don't know if either of you have seen it. Dr. Tess Kilwein (13:53) totally. College Is Fine Podcast (13:58) Why, why, Dr. Tess Kilwein (13:59) You can College Is Fine Podcast (13:59) why wouldn't you want to bring it up? Why wouldn't you want to bring it up? think we should all be talking about it all the time. Dr. Tess Kilwein (13:59) always bring up needed rivalry. College Is Fine Podcast (14:02) Bye! You know, I reading an article the other day about, you know, there's I've read his last name, Jesse, something he plays for the NHL, like all these athletes that like subsequently have come out after heated rivalry. And I'm just curious in terms of what are you seeing in terms of the decision making process around coming out regarding your identity in terms of sports and, you know, how does a student athlete make that decision given, I mean, there's so many variables you just spoke about that are so unpredictable, right, in terms of the current culture, how the culture may shift, may not shift, safe, unsafe. Dr. Tess Kilwein (14:41) Yeah. I mean, it's loaded because two things are happening. One, it is creating sort of a broader conversation of acceptance in the sport world. It is normalizing that queer athletes operate in our spaces, often unknowingly. And so on that end, we do, we are seeing an increase in folks, I think, coming out. I don't know that Heated Rivalry is responsible for that, but it certainly made an impact, right? We saw College Is Fine Podcast (15:04) You College Is Fine Podcast (15:05) Doesn't hurt. Dr. Tess Kilwein (15:08) Yeah, but we have a professional basketball player that has since come out. have NHL players having this conversation more vividly. And I think that's amazing. And what's also happening is some pressure. Some pressure for folks that maybe don't feel ready or safe to come out in their environments. Now they're faced with kind of this pressure of, it's safe and you should come out now. Look at the show, right? College Is Fine Podcast (15:11) Yes, yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right, yeah. Dr. Tess Kilwein (15:34) And this show is not going to change what's deeply ingrained in some of these environments and teams, right? So I think there's a lot of good in that it's opening up the conversation. And for those who feel ready, I think it gives them a platform and an example for doing so. But it also adds sort of a layered pressure to the folks that maybe don't feel ready and aren't objectively safe to come out in their environments. College Is Fine Podcast (15:38) Right. Mm-hmm. Ready. Right. College Is Fine Podcast (15:56) ⁓ we are talking a lot about coaches and teammates, but before going to college, people are in their home environments, their parents or their caretakers or siblings or family. Right? So how can people be champions for student athletes who, ⁓ are navigating this maybe without unintentionally adding pressure or are there, do you see any mistakes that well-meaning? caring people make with these student athletes. Dr. Tess Kilwein (16:25) Yeah. I mean, there's again, two questions in there. One, like parents and communities can support their athletes by making that support unconditional. Because what happens with young athletes, especially if they start to perform quite well and in quite visible ways is that their value becomes really tied to their performance. And it's almost a hyper focus, right? It's performance that's all that matters. And I think especially for young people, College Is Fine Podcast (16:34) Mm-hmm. Dr. Tess Kilwein (16:50) Athletes should know that their value is not dependent on how they perform. It should also not be dependent on who they love or how they express themselves in the world. And so the support from, from adults and parents should be unconditional, regardless of any of those factors. So, you know, listening to those athletes, learning, advocating for safe environments without sort of tokenizing the athlete, right? Like we should create these affirming environments, regardless of who, or if anyone is clear on that team. College Is Fine Podcast (16:58) Hmm. Dr. Tess Kilwein (17:19) that makes a big difference and is a responsibility of adults, not the children's in those environments. you know, I think what's really important is at the same time of all this, parents respect the privacy of their athletes and that understand that especially a young athlete may not want them to say something publicly out of fear of violation or how they're going to be treated. one of the most, that's, I think, a well-meaning. College Is Fine Podcast (17:35) Right. Mm-hmm. Dr. Tess Kilwein (17:42) I think that adults do that sometimes a mistake. I think another one is, is on the flip side of that silence. So it's on one end, maybe like advocating, but in a way that again, tokenizes or pressures the athlete. And then the opposite end of that is just, silence. So when these harmful comments happen, a lot of people say, well, I didn't know anyone queer was in the room. Um, and you just, you shouldn't have to know. The odds are either someone is or. College Is Fine Podcast (18:04) Right. College Is Fine Podcast (18:09) Right. Dr. Tess Kilwein (18:10) someone in that room loves someone who is, or someone in that room is going to go out and repeat that same harmful language in a room where people are, right? And so it shouldn't matter who's in the room. Cause silence is off. It often feels like agreement to athletes, especially young ones. It sets the standard for what kind of behavior is tolerated in an environment, in a family system, an athletic environment. So, ⁓ yeah, saying nothing or expecting the athletes to be the token and educate everyone else about inclusion rather than taking the time. College Is Fine Podcast (18:11) Mm-hmm. yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (18:37) Hmm. Dr. Tess Kilwein (18:39) to learn on their own, putting that emotional labor on the queer person. So it's almost like two ends of the spectrum, which is hard, because I think there's a lot of well-meaning adults who recognize maybe their silence has been harmful, and now they want to say or do something. But sometimes that say or doing is at the expense of a young athlete. So it's hard. College Is Fine Podcast (18:54) Right, right. I want to do kind of a piggyback, right? So if someone's listening, whether it's a student, college student or a parent, you know, where have you seen, cause I can imagine, you know, it one of those things where I'm going to ask a question and I kind of know the answer is going to just be good communication, right? So, um, so since I already know that when they have realized that something is there's, there's a tension there, or maybe they made a misstep or, or they want to tell their, a parent or a sibling or a friend about, College Is Fine Podcast (19:00) Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (19:22) Hey, this hurt me. Like where have you seen those conversations go right? What are some of the ingredients for that communication when people need to kind of get through some stuff and figure it out in their family and their community? Dr. Tess Kilwein (19:34) Yeah, no, I think that's great. And I think it's listen to understand rather than listen to like fix the thing because the thing's already been done. And so I see a lot of, again, well-meaning people that maybe something has brought to their attention and then they want to defend it or explain it. Right. And it's okay. It may be preferred to just acknowledge the mis-staff and move forward. And so I think we maybe want the conversation, but the conversation comes College Is Fine Podcast (19:58) Mm-hmm. Dr. Tess Kilwein (20:01) at the expense of the emotional labor of the person that's already harmed. And now they're in this position of having to take care of your emotions and your feelings about the situation. So I think the best recommendation when maybe you have caused harm and that's brought to you by someone is acknowledge it, apologize for it, and do better the next time. It's okay. We're gonna misstep on these things. Language is always evolving. There's things we know about people that... College Is Fine Podcast (20:24) Hmm. Dr. Tess Kilwein (20:26) is not the same as what we know about them the next week, right? And I think that happens a lot in queer spaces is you make a mistake without having all the knowledge. And so I think when someone brings that vulnerability to you, they're not looking for an excuse. They're not looking for even like a long discussion. think they're saying like, I love and care about you enough to let you know that you caused harm to me and can do differently in the future. So ⁓ I did do that. I'm sorry for doing that. And I'm going to do better the next time. That's often all that people are looking for. College Is Fine Podcast (20:53) Hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (20:54) that. That's very, yeah. I also feel like when these conversations happen, you said something I think is really important, which is a lot of times, and this is where colleges, it's one of the main reasons people love it and think of it as a really growing space, is people's identities might be evolving. They might be trying to sort through and getting a sense of what feels right for them. And so that College Is Fine Podcast (20:56) Yeah. Right. College Is Fine Podcast (21:19) that sense of like continuing to just check in. I've also seen at times where people are talking and one person is only focused on the impact it had on them and the other person is only focused on their intent. I didn't mean it. And so I love that idea of both can be valid, right? But if you just say, I'm going to acknowledge that it had an impact regardless of what my intent was. And now I can actually make my apology really active by doing differently is probably where the real, probably like the rubber hits the road. Is that the phrase or is it rubber meets the road? the rubber all those things? Yeah. I think we get what I'm saying, Dr. Tess Kilwein (21:54) I'll just say him. ⁓ I'll College Is Fine Podcast (21:55) You're asking you're asking the wrong person. I mean, I I. I do get what you're saying. Dr. Tess Kilwein (22:00) Yes. College Is Fine Podcast (22:02) OK, we spoke a little bit about earlier and I am this is like probably why we started this podcast, like to increase emotional resiliency amongst what we already know is a vulnerable period of time for mental health difficulties to arise during young adulthood. What are some perfect protective factors that help buffer queer athletes from mental health challenges? Dr. Tess Kilwein (22:23) Yeah, gosh, I think it's a lot of what we talked about already. It's the supportive teams, it's affirming coaches, it's inclusive policies, and access to identity affirming mental health care. Those are all major protective factors, I think, especially when we focus on the college level is. College Is Fine Podcast (22:32) Mm-hmm. Dr. Tess Kilwein (22:42) Sure, your environment that they're operating in, the teammates, the coaches, the policies, at that level we want affirmation, but we also want spaces that athletes can go outside of that environment because no matter what, there's going to be aspects of that environment that do cause harm. think if we look at the history of sport and how it's marginalized folks, there's got to be other places people can go and whether that is access to a sports psychologist that has expertise in working with that identity, I think that's really important. If you don't have one, know where those referrals are for your athletes. ⁓ And I think community outside of the team or that department can also strengthen resilience. So making sure that, you know, LGBT athletes, ethnic and minoritized athletes have access to resources outside of their own team that can support their identity is equally important. So I think of like the campus identity centers, sometimes there's support groups through the general counseling center, ⁓ larger organizations like Athlete Ally, BSAC, Black Student Athlete Group. I think there's both, right? So within the environment, doing what you can do to create affirmation on that level. And then also recognizing that because of the history of harm and marginalization of athletes choose to go outside of that environment to get their affirmation, making sure they have access to do so. College Is Fine Podcast (23:52) So many good resources. We'll include those in the show notes because I think that like so many things we talk about campuses just vary right across and definitely amongst you know what resources college athletes have depending on the university that they're at. ⁓ Okay. College Is Fine Podcast (24:09) Yeah, it's funny because we have a list of questions in our head that we were trying to think of asking you, but you answer all of them so beautifully and succinctly. I'm like, wow, OK. So we're drumming up some more. teasing. So let's just pretend in some ways that perhaps a student is on a team that doesn't feel inclusive or affirming. College Is Fine Podcast (24:20) You Dr. Tess Kilwein (24:21) Yeah, yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (24:32) work with on that, already mentioned one, which is to find, you know, to find supportive communities elsewhere, such as a campus identity center. But if there's this sense of advocacy, community support, or also just coping skills, what are the things you work with in terms of your students to, you know, just to say, okay, the environment is not as much, it's not as changeable as we'd like, right? Or it might be something we, know, Liz and I talk a lot about like when the environment is kind of more powerful than you can be in that moment, then what are you left with? You know, can advocate as beautifully as you can. You can be so well-spoken. can do everything perfectly. Chef's kiss. That's what that sound was. Um, but yeah, sometimes the students still left holding everything on their own. Dr. Tess Kilwein (25:11) you This is such a beautiful question because it highlights the nuance of, of doing this work and what athletes who hold these identities face every day is that it'd be nice if all these things I'm talking about were possible and had an impact at every level. But the reality is a lot of these athletic systems and structures were, they have very long histories and foundations of sexism in sport, racism in sport, marginalization. And it takes a long time to change that culture. College Is Fine Podcast (25:27) Yeah. Dr. Tess Kilwein (25:45) And we cannot expect that a single athlete holding one of these identities be responsible for changing the culture of an athletic environment. So when I'm working with people on an individual level or even sometimes on a team level, when they operate in the larger system is there are two lanes that you operate in, this space. And one is advocacy. When can you talk to your teammates? When can you talk to your coaches? When do you have a sport administrator? When do you have a DI officer, a development officer? depending on the nature, like when can you advocate for a safer environment for yourself? When you have the capacity to, when it's safe to, ⁓ and recognizing that sometimes you can't do that at all. Sometimes you don't have the capacity or the safety to do so. ⁓ And so the second lane is how do you take care of yourself? How do you cope? And depending on the system or the athlete, right, we might go in between those two lanes. Some athletes are really motivated for the advocacy lane, some are... College Is Fine Podcast (26:34) Mm-hmm Dr. Tess Kilwein (26:43) really just only able to do the coping lane and that's okay. I don't think there's any expectation, but on the individual level, it's like, okay, how do we cope with our day to day? How do we get through this environment knowing and almost anticipating that you're gonna face these challenges in these comments, right? So it's the things we've talked about. How do you find support outside of that environment? Who can you call in those moments? Who can you lean on? Is there even one supportive teammate on that team? It may not be everybody, but one person that you can... nudge them in the shoulder when something's said, no, you have support. Is it maybe one coach? Maybe it's not a head coach. Maybe it's an assistant. Maybe it's a different staff member on your team. But how do we find these kind of smaller microcosms of support on your team to help you get through it? Maybe that's outside of your team. So, you you've got your friends outside of it at the resource center or the one friend from home or your parent. How do we, you know, build some of your own resilience and make sure that the things that are said in that room don't shake your own sense of your identity and self-worth? College Is Fine Podcast (27:40) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Tess Kilwein (27:40) That's a lot of this is showing yourself compassion and grace and these environments that are almost built to break you down. So it just depends, I think, on the setting and the athlete of how much can we do in that advocacy lane without you feeling like it's your burden to bear or your responsibility and make sure that we're coping on the individual level too as you operate through this environment. This is what's hard in sport is a lot of times we hear, well, if an environment isn't good for you, why don't you just leave? Why don't you just go elsewhere? And I think College Is Fine Podcast (27:47) Right, right. College Is Fine Podcast (27:50) Mm-hmm. College Is Fine Podcast (28:07) Right. College Is Fine Podcast (28:08) Right. College Is Fine Podcast (28:09) Well, for some people they'd be like, okay, just a room by myself then. Dr. Tess Kilwein (28:10) you know, yeah, yeah, and sometimes you can do that. Sometimes you can transfer, sometimes you can do those things, but the reality is it's not an option for everyone based on what their home life is like, their financial situation, their scholarship situation. And so we make it smaller than that, right? If you can't go, how do we create even a small bubble of safety for you while you're still operating in that environment? It's just unique to every situation. College Is Fine Podcast (28:25) Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right, Tess, I love ending with like a really big question and giving you less than 60 seconds to answer. So. I would really love if there was a queer athlete listening to this podcast, maybe what's something that you would want to say to them, right? And then a coach or a parent or a supportive person in that athlete's life, what would you what message would you want them to kind of hear from your work? What are some golden nuggets you have? College Is Fine Podcast (29:06) No pressure. Dr. Tess Kilwein (29:06) Awesome. I'm going to go backwards and start with the coach and the parent and ⁓ the athlete. ⁓ this is something I'm talking a lot about because of this deficit culture. often talk about, you know, LGBT and other minoritized athletes of what's difficult, right? But when we create inclusive environments, so this is for the coaches and the parents and the administrators and all the adults. When we create these inclusive environments, they're not just good for wellbeing. They don't just make people feel good and they're happier. They are good for performance. College Is Fine Podcast (29:10) Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Tess Kilwein (29:34) And if your bottom line is the performance of your athletes and the success of the athletes, this conversation should matter to you too. So when, when our athletes feel safe and respected in their environments, they perform better and they stay in sport longer. So I don't really care what your bottom line or your priority is, but we are having the same conversation about supporting, ⁓ minoritized athletes for those athletes themselves. I think I would say it in a different way of like, your identity does not diminish your value in sport. College Is Fine Podcast (29:34) Yeah. Dr. Tess Kilwein (30:02) The resilience and perspective that you bring based on your experiences are actually strengths, even if those around you can't see them. The way that you've learned to navigate environments that are often operated and created against you and not for you, your ability to learn and thrive and persevere in those environments, it's going to be a strength on any sport team in any space in your life. So you deserve environments where you can pursue excellence and success without hiding who you are. College Is Fine Podcast (30:05) Yeah. Hmm, yeah. College Is Fine Podcast (30:29) I have chill bumps like literally from the top of my head to my butt. When's your Ted talk? Come on. Do it. it. I am, this is exactly the interview I knew we'd have after having conversations with you. I'm really lucky I can have like a, I feel like a coffee or a drink with her later and she'll just keep talking in these beautiful ways. Um, so thank you. College Is Fine Podcast (30:29) Ugh, 10 out of 10, same. So good. Dr. Tess Kilwein (30:36) Hahaha College Is Fine Podcast (30:36) I know. my goodness. Ugh. I know! ⁓ Dr. Tess Kilwein (30:48) Yeah, anytime. College Is Fine Podcast (30:50) I gotta get myself down to Nashville to come to this happy hour, even if it's just a party of two over there. College Is Fine Podcast (30:54) I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Dr. Tess Kilwein (30:57) Come join us! College Is Fine Podcast (30:59) you'll make it. You'll double our double our attendance. ⁓ so this has been great. Thank you so much for coming on. We could talk to you all day. ⁓ so we'll let you get back to, your, you know, your regular job, but we really appreciate your time. And I know those students listening to you too. Dr. Tess Kilwein (31:15) Thanks for having me.