Latest / The Book Deal / Rebecca Lim on genre-hopping, rejection and the joy of 'having no brand'

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Rebecca Lim on genre-hopping, rejection and the joy of 'having no brand' · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Speaker 3: The Book Deal Podcast Where you will discover the inspiring stories behind your favorite books.
• 0:16
  Speaker 4: We interview seasoned and debut authors as well as publishing industry professionals to bring you the best tips and advice on how to get that elusive book deal.
• 0:25
  Speaker 5: So no matter what stage of writing you're at, we've got you covered.
• 0:29
  Speaker 5: I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:32
  Speaker 4: And I'm Natasha Rai.
• 0:34
  Speaker 5: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors.
• 0:38
  Speaker 6: One deal at a time.
• 0:43
  Speaker 6: The Book Deal podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters which it's recorded on, and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:51
  Speaker 8: Hi, everyone.
• 0:52
  Speaker 8: It's Madeleine here.
• 0:53
  Speaker 8: I was fortunate to speak with beloved Australian writer, Rebecca Lim.
• 0:57
  Speaker 8: Rebecca is a writer, editor, and lawyer, and the author of over 20 books.
• 1:01
  Speaker 8: Her books have been award-winning and best-selling, and include Tiger Daughter, a Kirkus, Amazon, and Booklist Best Book, CBCA Book of the Year, and Victoria Premier's Literary Award winner.
• 1:12
  Speaker 8: In fact, her writing has been either awarded or listed for pretty much every writing award in Australia.
• 1:17
  Speaker 8: Rebecca has now turned her hand to writing for adults with her new crime thriller, The Graduate.
• 1:22
  Speaker 11: Rebecca tells us why being a publishing flake might actually be a good thing, managing rejections and the financial realities of being an author, and how she balances life as a corporate lawyer, mother, dog owner, and writer.
• 1:35
  Speaker 11: And a little spoiler, her advice includes the use of toilet paper rolls.
• 1:38
  Speaker 11: Enjoy.
• 1:40
  Speaker 12: Just a quick content warning.
• 1:42
  Speaker 12: We do make some brief references to crimes against children in this episode, including a very, very quick discussion of historical cases.
• 1:49
  Speaker 12: While we don't go into any detail, please be wary if you've got little ones around you or in the car
• 1:54
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Rebecca Lim, welcome to The Deal Podcast.
• 1:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Thank you
• 1:57
  video1164012870: so much for having me, Madeleine.
• 1:59
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Now we were talking about your, author bio actually.
• 2:01
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: you've over books,
• 2:03
  video1164012870: Some of them
• 2:03
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: are very short, so
• 2:04
  video1164012870: they may not-
• 2:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: as books, but, um, yeah,
• 2:07
  video1164012870: roughly about 23 or 24
• 2:10
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: It's amazing, and I feel like you've been recognized by almost every major literary award in Australia as well.
• 2:15
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: I was looking
• 2:16
  video1164012870: your,
• 2:16
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: the long list of all the award-winning, long listing, short listing, which is very impressive
• 2:22
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I
• 2:22
  video1164012870: think it's a function of, like, having survived this long, uh, possibly.
• 2:25
  video1164012870: Like, I've been doing this for, like, 23 years now, so
• 2:27
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: someone hopefully point noticed
• 2:29
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: something, you hope as a writer,
• 2:31
  video1164012870: so yeah.
• 2:31
  video1164012870: Oh,
• 2:31
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: you're too, you're too humble.
• 2:33
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Um, but can you take us, Back to the beginning.
• 2:35
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Um, where did your love of writing and books come from?
• 2:39
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I don't know if it's the same experience for you, but I
• 2:40
  video1164012870: basically started jotting down
• 2:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: small stories
• 2:43
  video1164012870: and, you know, illustrated things when I was about seven.
• 2:45
  video1164012870: So, like, I
• 2:45
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: think, um, you know, if you really wanna be a writer, it's something
• 2:48
  video1164012870: can't actually stop compelled to keep on putting things down on scraps
• 2:52
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: of it used to frustrate me'cause like,
• 2:54
  video1164012870: you know, sometimes
• 2:55
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you'd have a dream at night and
• 2:56
  video1164012870: think,
• 2:56
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I, I wrote a whole novel in
• 2:57
  video1164012870: my sleep," right?
• 2:58
  video1164012870: Mm-hmm.
• 2:59
  video1164012870: And then
• 2:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you sort of get lazy, you don't write it down as
• 3:01
  video1164012870: soon as you wake
• 3:02
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: up, and it's all gone.
• 3:03
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So, like, for me, like,
• 3:04
  video1164012870: ideas are coming from
• 3:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: everywhere all the time and,
• 3:07
  video1164012870: you know, I'm, I'm s-
• 3:08
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: picking
• 3:08
  video1164012870: up dialogue
• 3:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: from people on the train platform and putting that into stories and stuff and seeing where things go.
• 3:14
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And unfortunately,
• 3:15
  video1164012870: because, I mean, you
• 3:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: would know as well as
• 3:17
  video1164012870: I do, it's hard to
• 3:18
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: make
• 3:18
  video1164012870: a living
• 3:19
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: out of writing.
• 3:20
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You kind of have all these scraps of stories that could
• 3:22
  video1164012870: potentially become something, but you've
• 3:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: gotta work
• 3:24
  video1164012870: out which legs.
• 3:27
  video1164012870: So long story
• 3:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: short,
• 3:27
  video1164012870: think I've just always been doing it, and I've
• 3:29
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: always
• 3:29
  video1164012870: tried to put the ideas in
• 3:31
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: one spot.
• 3:32
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: But it, it If you look
• 3:33
  video1164012870: around
• 3:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: my house, and
• 3:34
  video1164012870: it's quite a just scraps of writing on every
• 3:38
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: pamphlet.
• 3:38
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: You know, American Express pamphlets, um, electricity bills, that kind of just
• 3:43
  video1164012870: constantly,
• 3:44
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: away with
• 3:45
  video1164012870: ideas.
• 3:46
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Did you, was there, because I often find with some writers that there is someone that's really encouraged their writing in their past.
• 3:52
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Is there someone for you that's really
• 3:54
  video1164012870: sort of
• 3:55
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: brought that out and encouraged
• 3:56
  video1164012870: you?
• 3:57
  video1164012870: I've been really lucky,'cause I
• 3:58
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I had some really lovely English teachers.
• 4:00
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Um, like when I was a, a younger kid, I was really, really shy.
• 4:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Um, we didn't speak English
• 4:05
  video1164012870: at
• 4:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: home for many years as the primary language, so, didn't have a lot of really great books
• 4:11
  video1164012870: at home.
• 4:11
  video1164012870: Probably
• 4:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: medical journals from my
• 4:13
  video1164012870: dad, and also, you know, Peter Bentley's Jaws.
• 4:15
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: like
• 4:15
  video1164012870: just awful- you know, pulp
• 4:17
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: fiction-y type books, like Lucifer's Hammer, that kind of thing.
• 4:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Um, so I wasn't really reading that stuff at home, but I just had these school.
• 4:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, there was a library teacher
• 4:25
  video1164012870: in grade five, um, I
• 4:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I don't know if she's still around, but that was MLC.
• 4:29
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: She, um, encouraged me really widely,
• 4:32
  video1164012870: so I read everything in the
• 4:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the library.
• 4:34
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I'd read everything in the
• 4:34
  video1164012870: local library.
• 4:35
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Had a lovely
• 4:36
  video1164012870: teacher from, um, year 10 to year 12 who
• 4:39
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: checked in on me even And so, you know, before I before my final, like, year exam, she
• 4:46
  video1164012870: had me over just to have lunch and just talk
• 4:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: about how I was feeling and how did
• 4:50
  video1164012870: I think I would go.
• 4:51
  video1164012870: So just really lovely things like that.
• 4:53
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, it
• 4:53
  video1164012870: wasn't
• 4:53
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: really a writing mentor,
• 4:54
  video1164012870: I think, when I was younger.
• 4:55
  video1164012870: It was more people saying,"You can actually
• 4:58
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and even though you're not comfortable public or you don't know how to
• 5:01
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: pronounce the
• 5:02
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: word
• 5:02
  video1164012870: hypotenuse, there's something
• 5:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: in your writing which is, you know,
• 5:06
  video1164012870: really interesting and should be encouraged."
• 5:08
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So I think my teachers
• 5:10
  video1164012870: encouraging.
• 5:11
  video1164012870: Oh,
• 5:11
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: thank God for English teachers,
• 5:12
  video1164012870: right?
• 5:13
  video1164012870: I
• 5:13
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I know.
• 5:14
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like how do they get through all those,
• 5:15
  video1164012870: know,
• 5:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: all those essays and all those crazy thoughts that people have, non sequiturs,
• 5:19
  video1164012870: all that kind of thing?
• 5:20
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: So for, for someone to of wade through
• 5:23
  video1164012870: 200 essays and go,"Actually, yours has got something in it," you know,"We should try and encourage
• 5:29
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: You obviously have been writing all your life.
• 5:32
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Was there a moment though where you
• 5:33
  video1164012870: thought to
• 5:33
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: yourself, I
• 5:34
  video1164012870: really
• 5:34
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: wanna get this published," like your writing
• 5:36
  video1164012870: published?
• 5:37
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Um, I've done some really
• 5:39
  video1164012870: crazy things.
• 5:39
  video1164012870: So in the past when
• 5:40
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you could actually just walk sort of, you know, um, unsecured into a publishing
• 5:45
  video1164012870: office,
• 5:45
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I think when I was in,
• 5:47
  video1164012870: like, year eight or nine, I'd
• 5:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: hand drawn this
• 5:49
  video1164012870: picture
• 5:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: book,
• 5:50
  video1164012870: and I think
• 5:51
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it was called Peace is a Bird, not a very novel
• 5:53
  video1164012870: idea, but,
• 5:54
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: like, it was all hand done, colored in, and I was an idiot because, like, I obviously didn't know anything about the
• 5:59
  video1164012870: industry.
• 5:59
  video1164012870: So
• 6:00
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I walked
• 6:00
  video1164012870: into this publishing company in suburban Balwyn, Methuen.
• 6:04
  video1164012870: I don't know if
• 6:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: that Australia anymore, but
• 6:06
  video1164012870: I said,
• 6:07
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: "Here's my picture And
• 6:08
  video1164012870: they were like,"Thanks." And they took it off me,
• 6:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: like, 14-year-old, that's my only copy,
• 6:13
  video1164012870: right?
• 6:13
  video1164012870: 'Cause there's no photocopiers back then.
• 6:15
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: They take it off me,
• 6:17
  video1164012870: they keep it for
• 6:17
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a few days, Like, you know, they were
• 6:19
  video1164012870: kind, so they looked like they
• 6:20
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: were
• 6:20
  video1164012870: reading it, and then
• 6:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: they gently sort
• 6:22
  video1164012870: returned and said,"It was really nice.
• 6:25
  video1164012870: We
• 6:25
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: really enjoyed reading it, it
• 6:27
  video1164012870: wasn't quite right
• 6:28
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: for our list."
• 6:28
  video1164012870: Oh.
• 6:28
  video1164012870: So they,
• 6:29
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: they did
• 6:29
  video1164012870: the whole
• 6:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the whole publishing thing.
• 6:31
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And, like, you know, my parents,
• 6:32
  video1164012870: who didn't know anything
• 6:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: about that either, would drop me off there to drop off
• 6:35
  video1164012870: book.
• 6:36
  video1164012870: And so- Oh that was my first taste of, like,
• 6:38
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: being rejected
• 6:39
  video1164012870: by a publisher as a 14-year-old.
• 6:40
  video1164012870: Um, and
• 6:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: then
• 6:41
  video1164012870: after that,
• 6:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I think I was probably the most
• 6:43
  video1164012870: rejected Do you remember those?
• 6:46
  video1164012870: Um- Yes,
• 6:47
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: yes you probably entered that too.
• 6:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Um, and
• 6:49
  video1164012870: I think, you
• 6:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: know, I was
• 6:50
  video1164012870: trying to sort
• 6:51
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: of juggle a career at a really major law firm where they
• 6:55
  video1164012870: just expected you to
• 6:56
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: die in your chair.
• 6:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So you'll see
• 6:57
  video1164012870: some of that
• 6:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: in The Graduate.
• 6:58
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: But I was trying to juggle that with writing,
• 7:01
  video1164012870: and so I think the fifth time
• 7:03
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I got rejected,
• 7:05
  video1164012870: Allen
• 7:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Unwin actually wrote
• 7:06
  video1164012870: back to me and they
• 7:07
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: said,"The judges said it was appalling, like
• 7:09
  video1164012870: it was not a good manuscript, but
• 7:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: they want you to know, and they hardly ever do this, that you actually if you can write
• 7:16
  video1164012870: something better than this, we will read So I
• 7:18
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I
• 7:19
  video1164012870: just thought, that's, like, the sign that I need to quit
• 7:22
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: this crazy job
• 7:23
  video1164012870: where I'm lying face down in a pool of saliva at 11:00 at night-
• 7:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: working on some crazy deal, and just take some some writing.
• 7:31
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So, um,
• 7:32
  video1164012870: yeah, I just used to
• 7:32
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: enter everything and, you know, maybe
• 7:34
  video1164012870: come third or maybe get a highly
• 7:36
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: commended on a short story thing
• 7:37
  video1164012870: or...
• 7:38
  video1164012870: The important
• 7:39
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: thing for me was getting the feedback.
• 7:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So if someone said
• 7:41
  video1164012870: to you, you know, like,"Can't publish
• 7:44
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it, but it's got something to it.
• 7:46
  video1164012870: If you rework
• 7:47
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it this way, we might look at it again," that kind of
• 7:49
  video1164012870: stuff was like gold,
• 7:51
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: because I just had no
• 7:51
  video1164012870: contacts in
• 7:52
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: in was
• 7:53
  video1164012870: kind of the
• 7:54
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: stuff that
• 7:54
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: I
• 7:54
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I was looking for, someone going,"Actually,
• 7:57
  video1164012870: there's something here.
• 7:58
  video1164012870: Wow, and that
• 7:59
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: validation is just so important when you're experiencing so many rejections
• 8:03
  video1164012870: well, like- Yeah, like, how did you feel, like, you know, getting
• 8:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: your first contract?
• 8:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Did you also
• 8:06
  video1164012870: enter all sorts try
• 8:08
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: and
• 8:08
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: sort of get feedback from
• 8:09
  video1164012870: industry professionals
• 8:12
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Yeah, I, I, I I went through literary speed dating, um, but I'd written three
• 8:15
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Oh, that's
• 8:16
  video1164012870: books.
• 8:16
  video1164012870: Oh, that's tough.
• 8:16
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 8:16
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 8:16
  video1164012870: But I, that,
• 8:17
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: that suits my personality style.
• 8:19
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Like, I'm happy to get in but I, I'd written three other novels which had just sat in the drawer and I was,'cause I, I just wasn't confident in them.
• 8:26
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: So it wasn't until I wrote, yeah, The Butterfly Women, which w- I felt like I wanted
• 8:31
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Yeah, and you also
• 8:32
  video1164012870: probably thought,"I've done the
• 8:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: work now.
• 8:34
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like I've, I've actually
• 8:35
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: been through process three times." yes.
• 8:37
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: "I know how to, like, structure now.
• 8:38
  video1164012870: know how to end this thing.
• 8:40
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Like know not blunder around in wilderness and it all that kind of thing."
• 8:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: thing
• 8:43
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Yeah,
• 8:43
  video1164012870: think by that- Yeah, your
• 8:43
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: 10,000
• 8:44
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: by that...
• 8:45
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Yeah,
• 8:45
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: do yeah, exactly.
• 8:46
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: So, so you decided to take some
• 8:48
  video1164012870: time
• 8:48
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: off your corporate lawyer career to, to write.
• 8:51
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: And so how did you go about then, like, what, what was the yes moment'Cause it was with Mercy series, I'm, I'm guessing
• 8:58
  video1164012870: It
• 8:58
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: was terrifying actually.
• 8:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So, um, I mean, before Mercy, I think I
• 9:02
  video1164012870: was, like, out in the
• 9:03
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: wilderness for, like,
• 9:05
  video1164012870: three years, three
• 9:06
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and a half years, and I think in
• 9:07
  video1164012870: the
• 9:07
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: first year where I wasn't working
• 9:10
  video1164012870: as a lawyer, I earned$500 as a writer.
• 9:12
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 9:13
  video1164012870: So you can imagine, like, I had no kids at that point, but I had a husband, so
• 9:15
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it was like if
• 9:16
  video1164012870: he didn't have a salary, we would literally die.
• 9:18
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 9:18
  video1164012870: Like, we couldn't even live
• 9:19
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: on dog food.
• 9:20
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: That's not enough money.
• 9:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I think I started off And, you know, being a pragmatic commercial person,
• 9:25
  video1164012870: it's like,"How
• 9:25
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: do I get runs on the
• 9:26
  video1164012870: board?" It's like a catch-22.
• 9:28
  video1164012870: If I'm not published, then I've
• 9:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: got nothing on my CV, no one
• 9:31
  video1164012870: will wanna
• 9:31
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: publish
• 9:32
  video1164012870: me, so how do I get that first contract?
• 9:34
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So for me, and
• 9:35
  video1164012870: it
• 9:35
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: sounds,
• 9:36
  video1164012870: a little bit cold, but it was like, well,
• 9:38
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I can write a kids' book.
• 9:39
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like,
• 9:39
  video1164012870: I've got lots of
• 9:40
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: ideas.
• 9:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I can write something funny.
• 9:42
  video1164012870: I can write something short, and
• 9:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: let's see how
• 9:43
  video1164012870: that goes." And so, like,
• 9:45
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I started
• 9:45
  video1164012870: off with, um, sort of these humorous detective stories for kids that I've got to
• 9:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: illustrate
• 9:49
  video1164012870: as well, which I can't do anymore.
• 9:51
  video1164012870: I'm not allowed to illustrate anything with pedophiles
• 9:52
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: in it,
• 9:53
  video1164012870: for example.
• 9:53
  video1164012870: Like, I mean- Mm it's just not right.
• 9:55
  video1164012870: But,
• 9:55
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: um, like I wrote these,
• 9:56
  video1164012870: like, books for kids, and found myself getting published that way.
• 10:00
  video1164012870: And then I think over the,
• 10:01
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: over the years, like, I've moved up the age
• 10:03
  video1164012870: range.
• 10:04
  video1164012870: Mm-hmm.
• 10:04
  video1164012870: Because
• 10:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I think the real
• 10:06
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: me, the, the, me that
• 10:07
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I have
• 10:07
  video1164012870: to filter for children's books, I'm a bit sweary
• 10:10
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and I'm a bit rude and, you know, like, I'm
• 10:12
  video1164012870: a bit cutting
• 10:12
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and I'm a bit satirical, and you can't
• 10:14
  video1164012870: be like
• 10:15
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: that in
• 10:15
  video1164012870: kids' books.
• 10:16
  video1164012870: Like, you- You have
• 10:16
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: to tone it down,
• 10:17
  video1164012870: don't you?
• 10:17
  video1164012870: Yeah, a little bit.
• 10:17
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 10:18
  video1164012870: Yeah, you kind of can't be
• 10:18
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: your unfiltered, darkly humorous self, right?
• 10:22
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Because it's too much for
• 10:23
  video1164012870: people.
• 10:23
  video1164012870: So, um, I
• 10:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I think what
• 10:25
  video1164012870: done is like And you'll find this too,
• 10:28
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: to have a really long career in writing, you need to be
• 10:31
  video1164012870: interested in Mm.
• 10:33
  video1164012870: Like, I find, um, you know, some people
• 10:35
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: are comfortable doing the same thing
• 10:36
  video1164012870: every six months or every year.
• 10:39
  video1164012870: This is their genre.
• 10:40
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: This
• 10:40
  video1164012870: is their brand.
• 10:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: They just do this thing.
• 10:42
  video1164012870: It's very easy.
• 10:42
  video1164012870: You know, they've
• 10:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: got the same sort of like archetypal
• 10:45
  video1164012870: characters, and they just pump these amazing things out
• 10:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and earn a motza from them, right?
• 10:50
  video1164012870: But for someone like
• 10:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: me,
• 10:51
  video1164012870: and I think it
• 10:51
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: keeps
• 10:51
  video1164012870: it interesting for readers as well, if
• 10:53
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I'm interested in doing a different genre, and I've done lots of different genres, just like
• 10:57
  video1164012870: you
• 10:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: have, historical,
• 10:58
  video1164012870: you
• 10:58
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: know, humor, contemporary, young adult, children's,
• 11:01
  video1164012870: toddlers, adults, right?
• 11:03
  video1164012870: Um, if
• 11:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I'm interested
• 11:04
  video1164012870: in the story and I
• 11:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: can
• 11:05
  video1164012870: make myself laugh or
• 11:07
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I can make myself feel I'm hoping that the reader will get that as well.
• 11:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So I think, um, the
• 11:13
  video1164012870: way
• 11:13
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I've kept my career
• 11:14
  video1164012870: going is what
• 11:15
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: interests me that I think would interest other and, you know,
• 11:19
  video1164012870: possibly t- taps into a zeitgeist or taps into
• 11:22
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a
• 11:22
  video1164012870: gap that is not filled
• 11:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: or, you know, like, people have not addressed.
• 11:26
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So for example, with your novel, you're looking at a historical period that
• 11:30
  video1164012870: a lot
• 11:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: of contemporary Australians
• 11:32
  video1164012870: don't
• 11:32
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: know about, and so they're assuming marvelous Melbourne just grew up, you know, looking
• 11:36
  video1164012870: sophisticated and glossy
• 11:38
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and this is how it always
• 11:39
  video1164012870: was.
• 11:39
  video1164012870: But
• 11:40
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I'm,
• 11:40
  video1164012870: like you, interested in interrogating
• 11:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: all those unseen stories that hear about.
• 11:46
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So a lot of my
• 11:46
  video1164012870: work
• 11:46
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: is about, okay, we've
• 11:48
  video1164012870: always
• 11:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: been fed this
• 11:49
  video1164012870: notion of Australia
• 11:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: as this kind of
• 11:51
  video1164012870: nation filled with these kinds of people.
• 11:54
  video1164012870: And,
• 11:54
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: like,
• 11:55
  video1164012870: for me, it's a big pushback all the time.
• 11:57
  video1164012870: Like, I'm not putting a big
• 11:58
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: red neon sign over my
• 11:59
  video1164012870: book saying,"Issues.
• 12:00
  video1164012870: I'm dealing with issues." But I'm
• 12:02
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: always saying there's more than one Australian story, and there's more than one Australia.
• 12:07
  video1164012870: And all of
• 12:07
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: my novels, even
• 12:08
  video1164012870: though they're, you know, crime, paranormal,
• 12:10
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: whatever,
• 12:11
  video1164012870: they're all
• 12:12
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: trying expand this notion of are we a country?
• 12:15
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Who are we as
• 12:17
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You know,
• 12:17
  video1164012870: what, what is the story that we
• 12:18
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: What
• 12:19
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: are
• 12:19
  video1164012870: the fictions we tell ourselves?
• 12:20
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: What are
• 12:21
  video1164012870: the
• 12:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: real stories
• 12:21
  video1164012870: that sit underneath
• 12:24
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: That's so interesting.
• 12:25
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: I love that'cause if you were to look at all your list published, it is cross-genre, it's cross age
• 12:30
  video1164012870: groups.
• 12:30
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: it's everything.
• 12:31
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: But, you know, you've got that common thread, that common interest.
• 12:34
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: And then, I mean, if we're not interested in what we're writing, what's the point
• 12:37
  video1164012870: as well, Yeah, exactly.
• 12:38
  video1164012870: And like, you know, by the end, like, you look at the, you know, your oeuvre,
• 12:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and you kind of think,
• 12:42
  video1164012870: well-
• 12:44
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I didn't
• 12:44
  video1164012870: really extend myself
• 12:45
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: much,"
• 12:46
  video1164012870: and they're all kind of quite interchangeable.
• 12:48
  video1164012870: And
• 12:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: like,
• 12:48
  video1164012870: that's not something I
• 12:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I
• 12:49
  video1164012870: wanted to wake up to one day.
• 12:51
  video1164012870: And also, like, you know,
• 12:52
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: constrained by the realities of life, you know, you
• 12:55
  video1164012870: kind of go
• 12:56
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: to the
• 12:56
  video1164012870: publishers who will publish your next
• 12:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: weirdness.
• 13:00
  video1164012870: So for me, I
• 13:01
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I mean, a lot of
• 13:01
  video1164012870: people
• 13:02
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: have And it looks
• 13:03
  video1164012870: terrible, they've stuck
• 13:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: by the one that one publisher will give them
• 13:06
  video1164012870: the marketing platform, and they've got
• 13:08
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: this whole sort of backstory and, you know, it's all very historical for them
• 13:13
  video1164012870: to
• 13:13
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: be with that one
• 13:13
  video1164012870: publisher.
• 13:14
  video1164012870: But for me, because I
• 13:15
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: write
• 13:15
  video1164012870: such weird Mm-hmm um,
• 13:17
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it's whoever will publish my work
• 13:19
  video1164012870: and thinks of value that I will gravitate towards.
• 13:24
  video1164012870: So like,
• 13:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you know,
• 13:25
  video1164012870: I've, I've had
• 13:25
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a lot
• 13:25
  video1164012870: of...
• 13:26
  video1164012870: I've been very
• 13:26
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: lucky in my publishers.
• 13:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So
• 13:28
  video1164012870: Harper
• 13:29
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Collins were lovely and they
• 13:29
  video1164012870: published
• 13:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: my paranormal novels, but I think they were
• 13:32
  video1164012870: then expecting me
• 13:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: to keep going that way.
• 13:35
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And, um,
• 13:36
  video1164012870: when I then served up a crime novel, they were like,"Well, that's not really You know, and so that's why I moved to Text for that one.
• 13:42
  video1164012870: So it looks like
• 13:44
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I'm
• 13:44
  video1164012870: a complete flake, and it looks
• 13:45
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: like I can't,
• 13:46
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you know,
• 13:46
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: just
• 13:47
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: of stick to one lane,
• 13:49
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: but not interesting me to do that, and
• 13:51
  video1164012870: I don't think it's interesting for readers
• 13:52
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: either if you just
• 13:54
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: do the
• 13:54
  video1164012870: same thing
• 13:55
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Mm-hmm.
• 13:56
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Okay, well, let's talk about The Graduate then.
• 13:59
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Um, we ask Rebecca on the podcast for authors to give their
• 14:04
  video1164012870: elevator pitch for their novels,
• 14:06
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: um, which is something that
• 14:07
  video1164012870: I find terrible.
• 14:08
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Like, I'm very bad at doing my
• 14:10
  video1164012870: my elevator pitch.
• 14:12
  video1164012870: Do
• 14:12
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: you have an elevator pitch for The Graduate?
• 14:14
  video1164012870: I could be, I could be quite
• 14:15
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: terrible at that as well.
• 14:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I mean, that's why, like, when you were saying that speed
• 14:17
  video1164012870: dating was, like, a,
• 14:18
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a good personality, I was like,"That is the worst."'Cause I'd
• 14:21
  video1164012870: be, like, unable to get the words out,
• 14:23
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and there'd
• 14:23
  video1164012870: be, like,
• 14:23
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: bells ringing, move on, and I'd be like,"I haven't even said my name yet." Like, I just, um...
• 14:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: so the elevator pitch for this, it's really, I always say
• 14:32
  video1164012870: to people, it's like
• 14:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a And it
• 14:33
  video1164012870: probably sounds
• 14:34
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: very, very
• 14:35
  video1164012870: un-fascinating.
• 14:36
  video1164012870: It's a piss
• 14:37
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: take
• 14:37
  video1164012870: of the Australian legal industry,
• 14:40
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: 1970s career criminals.
• 14:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So, um, you're a lot
• 14:43
  video1164012870: younger
• 14:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: than I am, but I grew up watching terrible shows
• 14:45
  video1164012870: like Homicide and Cop Shop,
• 14:46
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: right?
• 14:47
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: With these
• 14:47
  video1164012870: gruff, burly Australian police/criminal characters on them.
• 14:52
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Um, it's a piss take of
• 14:53
  video1164012870: colonialism, Mm-hmm.
• 14:54
  video1164012870: um, because
• 14:55
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: like you I think we have this view of Australia
• 14:57
  video1164012870: being this golden country
• 14:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: that was, you know, like grown off
• 15:01
  video1164012870: a sheep's
• 15:02
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: back, and that was all
• 15:03
  video1164012870: sort of like
• 15:03
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: we're out in the sun, you know, like cutting down wheat.
• 15:06
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: It was all very healthy and nothing bad
• 15:08
  video1164012870: happened.
• 15:09
  video1164012870: Um, so
• 15:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: in this novel I'm kind of dealing with that whole, well,
• 15:12
  video1164012870: where did the fertilizer
• 15:14
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: that we used to
• 15:15
  video1164012870: grow the wheat that the sheep lived off come from?
• 15:18
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 15:18
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 15:18
  video1164012870: So it's
• 15:18
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: going back into the myth
• 15:20
  video1164012870: of what our country's built
• 15:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: on as well.
• 15:23
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: as well as layering it
• 15:24
  video1164012870: with like a
• 15:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: crime narrative.
• 15:26
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So it sounds like a
• 15:26
  video1164012870: lot
• 15:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: going on there, but,
• 15:27
  video1164012870: um, the
• 15:28
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: school that I went to in
• 15:29
  video1164012870: high
• 15:29
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: school, um,
• 15:30
  video1164012870: unfortunately has a
• 15:31
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: link to,
• 15:32
  video1164012870: um,
• 15:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the unsolved Mr.
• 15:35
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: series of crimes against children.
• 15:37
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And so
• 15:37
  video1164012870: another
• 15:38
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: kind of, theme in my novels is, you know, violence
• 15:41
  video1164012870: against women
• 15:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and
• 15:42
  video1164012870: children is
• 15:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: absolutely abhorrent.
• 15:44
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And like,
• 15:44
  video1164012870: you know, the
• 15:45
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: fact
• 15:45
  video1164012870: we're seeing this
• 15:46
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: absolute avalanche of domestic partners
• 15:49
  video1164012870: or
• 15:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: by
• 15:49
  video1164012870: strangers or
• 15:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: whatever, even in my books for really small children, like I'm still dealing with that
• 15:55
  video1164012870: whole
• 15:56
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: women and children have to be
• 15:57
  video1164012870: safe.
• 15:58
  video1164012870: Like, why are we not keeping-
• 15:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: them safe?
• 15:59
  video1164012870: safe?
• 15:59
  video1164012870: They should
• 16:00
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: always be safe.
• 16:00
  video1164012870: And if, you know,
• 16:01
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: if someone who looks powerless, can actually
• 16:05
  video1164012870: back
• 16:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: some power or change the
• 16:07
  video1164012870: narrative, I'm very interested in stories like that.
• 16:09
  video1164012870: So that
• 16:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: was like the longest
• 16:10
  video1164012870: elevator pitch ever.
• 16:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: but basically
• 16:12
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: crime, lawyers,
• 16:14
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: um,
• 16:14
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: you
• 16:14
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: know,
• 16:15
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: colonialism, terrible Australian shows.
• 16:19
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: the elevator pitch for it.
• 16:20
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: And a urban, urban Melbourne setting darkly humorous as well.
• 16:25
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Like, it, it, you know, when you do
• 16:26
  video1164012870: read
• 16:27
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: the sort of premise it, you, you know, it, it does with a lot dark material, you noted.
• 16:33
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: But,
• 16:33
  video1164012870: but
• 16:33
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: there's a humor, um, to it as well and, um, Fei-Fei Choy is a great, um, narrator as well of this story.
• 16:41
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: she's a voice is, is fantastic.
• 16:43
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: So will talk about Before we do go into book though, just, really curious um, you were talking earlier about, you know, how suppose writers are to stick their lanes, um, in terms of genre and, and sort of writing for a particular
• 16:57
  video1164012870: audience.
• 16:58
  video1164012870: Um,
• 16:59
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: you mentioned in your, uh, acknowledgements at the end of the book that you actually found, like, a lot of publishers were
• 17:06
  video1164012870: of
• 17:06
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: like,"Oh, um, this is a pedo book and
• 17:08
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 17:08
  video1164012870: We don't wanna touch it.
• 17:10
  video1164012870: I know, it's, it's hard'cause like you
• 17:12
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: s- you tell people,"Hey, it's a really funny novel, but it's
• 17:14
  video1164012870: pedophiles" and people are like- Yes.
• 17:15
  video1164012870: "I don't even, I don't
• 17:17
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: understand
• 17:17
  video1164012870: any of that, like, thing Um- Yeah so because like I
• 17:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I think I mean, it's not I have
• 17:22
  video1164012870: no brand.
• 17:23
  video1164012870: Like, I def-
• 17:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I'm
• 17:24
  video1164012870: one of the
• 17:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: authors I think in Australia who
• 17:25
  video1164012870: definitely But, um,
• 17:28
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I think because I've written
• 17:30
  video1164012870: so much for children, and it's
• 17:31
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: so, um guess
• 17:34
  video1164012870: at me and think educational writer- Mm or, you
• 17:37
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: know,
• 17:37
  video1164012870: big themes writer, or she writes about
• 17:40
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: immigrants in a really
• 17:41
  video1164012870: kind of like,
• 17:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: um, accessible way.
• 17:44
  video1164012870: So when I then- Was it like
• 17:45
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Tiger Daughter,
• 17:45
  video1164012870: you know- Yeah, that kind of thing such a beloved,
• 17:48
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: award-winning,
• 17:48
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 17:49
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 17:49
  video1164012870: Well,
• 17:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I
• 17:49
  video1164012870: mean,
• 17:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it's really just about writing about, you know, Australian
• 17:51
  video1164012870: kids who are not sort
• 17:52
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: of the norm, I guess.
• 17:53
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: But- they kind of
• 17:54
  video1164012870: said We can't fit...
• 17:58
  video1164012870: Like, this doesn't...
• 17:59
  video1164012870: You know, like, in
• 18:00
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a library, would they put
• 18:01
  video1164012870: this next to your...
• 18:02
  video1164012870: And I'm like,"No, they
• 18:02
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: wouldn't because the- they'd be
• 18:04
  video1164012870: in
• 18:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the kids section,
• 18:04
  video1164012870: and
• 18:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: then this would be in the adult section." They're like,"But they would shelf them." And I'm like,"Well, you can't
• 18:10
  video1164012870: stop kids reading
• 18:10
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: what they wanna read, right?" so I think for them it was like, possibly didn't sit well
• 18:18
  video1164012870: what I usually
• 18:19
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: do, and so they just couldn't
• 18:20
  video1164012870: touch it with a barge
• 18:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: pole.
• 18:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, they were literally like,"I don't know
• 18:22
  video1164012870: what to...
• 18:23
  video1164012870: Like, how do we even...
• 18:24
  video1164012870: You know, like, how do you talk about this next to your other stuff?" And, like, I
• 18:28
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I have lovely friends
• 18:29
  video1164012870: the industry.
• 18:29
  video1164012870: One of them runs a bookshop, and he was saying,"Ordinarily,
• 18:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: we'd host you for a,
• 18:35
  video1164012870: you know- Mm like a
• 18:36
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: launch,
• 18:37
  video1164012870: but w-
• 18:37
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: w- how do
• 18:38
  video1164012870: we..." You know, so that's the thing.
• 18:39
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 18:39
  video1164012870: Like, everyone's like,"How do we
• 18:41
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: deal with this
• 18:42
  video1164012870: one?" Like,
• 18:42
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: this is not the
• 18:43
  video1164012870: same as the others, right?
• 18:45
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Not that I write the same
• 18:45
  video1164012870: all the time.
• 18:46
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: This is really not the It's so left
• 18:49
  video1164012870: field we can't position it.
• 18:51
  video1164012870: So that's- And that's such
• 18:52
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: a shame because the whole purpose of the book is to give voice and agency to people
• 18:56
  video1164012870: traditionally don't
• 18:57
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: have a voice.
• 18:58
  video1164012870: Um, that's- Yeah, and that's
• 18:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the, the thing is, like, you know, I'd like to think that, you know, uh, one of the damaged children
• 19:03
  video1164012870: characters from one of my novels, if she grew
• 19:05
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: up and
• 19:07
  video1164012870: pursuing
• 19:07
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: somebody the ends of earth,
• 19:10
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: this is what it would look like.
• 19:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, sorry, th-
• 19:12
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: th- this is what it would look like, this whole
• 19:13
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: thing.
• 19:14
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: She would not stop.
• 19:15
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: She'd be
• 19:15
  video1164012870: like Terminator until she got what she wanted, so yeah.
• 19:18
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Exactly.
• 19:19
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: And I, I, I abso- I think it was such a page-turner, and I think because it has that revenge for, so Fei Fei Chou, we should talk about
• 19:25
  video1164012870: her.
• 19:25
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: So So she, is a a graduate.
• 19:28
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Uh, she's starting at this
• 19:29
  video1164012870: v- very,
• 19:30
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: um, intense corporate law
• 19:31
  video1164012870: firm,
• 19:32
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: which made me very glad that I never
• 19:34
  video1164012870: looked at- to becoming, becoming a lawyer.
• 19:36
  video1164012870: It
• 19:37
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: just sounds so cutthroat.
• 19:39
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Um, there's a lot of h- very, I think you described them as high-functioning sociopaths
• 19:43
  video1164012870: work- Yeah, absolutely in this corporate law firm.
• 19:45
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Um, but she's not there to sort of climb the ladder.
• 19:48
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Like, she's there out for revenge.
• 19:50
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Can you talk about, I suppose, your approach to giving Faye a voice, and a little bit about her as a character?
• 19:55
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Okay.
• 19:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: so without
• 19:58
  video1164012870: giving too much away,
• 19:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I think
• 19:59
  video1164012870: with,
• 20:00
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: um,
• 20:00
  video1164012870: with the Mr.
• 20:01
  video1164012870: Cruel
• 20:01
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: cases, one of the vic- one of the
• 20:03
  video1164012870: child victims unfortunately
• 20:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: was murdered.
• 20:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And
• 20:06
  video1164012870: so, um, this was kind of a thought experiment where
• 20:10
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: imagine if the murdered
• 20:11
  video1164012870: girl actually didn't
• 20:13
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: die, but decided to come back and try and figure out
• 20:17
  video1164012870: who had done this to her
• 20:19
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and the other children.
• 20:20
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So that, that's basically the, the premise for it.
• 20:23
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, I,
• 20:23
  video1164012870: I don't wanna
• 20:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: spoil it necessarily because
• 20:26
  video1164012870: there's a bit of a twist in
• 20:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it, but, um,
• 20:28
  video1164012870: it, it's
• 20:28
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: really like how do you take your
• 20:30
  video1164012870: apparent,
• 20:31
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: uh, mild-mannered looking
• 20:33
  video1164012870: facade
• 20:34
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and your meekness, and your lack of voice, and your funny accent, and
• 20:38
  video1164012870: all the things
• 20:39
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: that don't
• 20:39
  video1164012870: make you look like any of the other corporate graduates in this,
• 20:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you know, top-tier law firm, how do you take that apparent lack of cachet and turn that into something that gets you
• 20:50
  video1164012870: what you want.
• 20:51
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 20:51
  video1164012870: So it,
• 20:51
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it's,
• 20:52
  video1164012870: it's al-
• 20:52
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: also the
• 20:53
  video1164012870: story of most young women starting in a corporate environment,
• 20:55
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I
• 20:56
  video1164012870: think.
• 20:56
  video1164012870: I mean, you, you
• 20:56
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: tell me...
• 20:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Uh, you told me that you work in the government aspect, but it would be
• 21:00
  video1164012870: similar.
• 21:00
  video1164012870: Like, you start
• 21:01
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: out really fresh, really young.
• 21:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You don't know anything.
• 21:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You don't know how to talk to and all of
• 21:07
  video1164012870: a sudden you've got these massive,
• 21:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you know, brutish personalities screaming at you, making you
• 21:12
  video1164012870: cry
• 21:12
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: in a meeting room, like just absolutely bathing you in acid so that you can grow up to be just like them, right?
• 21:19
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So
• 21:20
  video1164012870: for me, um,
• 21:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: yeah,
• 21:21
  video1164012870: literally year nine I couldn't pronounce the word hypotenuse.
• 21:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I could spell it, but
• 21:26
  video1164012870: I
• 21:26
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: couldn't say
• 21:26
  video1164012870: it properly.
• 21:27
  video1164012870: So,
• 21:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: like, sometimes I'd say
• 21:28
  video1164012870: things and they'd come out and people would laugh.
• 21:30
  video1164012870: "That's not how you say that.
• 21:31
  video1164012870: Hypotenuse, that's
• 21:32
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: not
• 21:32
  video1164012870: how you say it." So, um,
• 21:34
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I'd take these years and years of conditioning, like, you know, Chinese cultural background,
• 21:40
  video1164012870: Children are seen and not heard.
• 21:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You know,
• 21:42
  video1164012870: women
• 21:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: don't speak back.
• 21:44
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: The men do all the deciding.
• 21:46
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the woman working?
• 21:47
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: The man should be working.
• 21:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You know, all the men's jobs and women's jobs.
• 21:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Taking all of that into,
• 21:53
  video1164012870: like,
• 21:54
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a really
• 21:54
  video1164012870: massively, at
• 21:55
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: that point when I was a graduate, Caucasian, like, and work environment dominated by these hugely, you
• 22:03
  video1164012870: know, personified men
• 22:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: who brought in the
• 22:05
  video1164012870: deals and,
• 22:06
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you know, had the lunches and, you know, had
• 22:08
  video1164012870: memberships to the
• 22:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Savage Club and
• 22:10
  video1164012870: the Melbourne Club and, you know, all
• 22:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: that
• 22:11
  video1164012870: stuff.
• 22:13
  video1164012870: And then booming
• 22:13
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: at you,"Rebecca, Grange range has just come out for the year.
• 22:17
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You've got to lay down a
• 22:18
  video1164012870: case." And I
• 22:19
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I used to think to myself,
• 22:20
  video1164012870: "It's
• 22:20
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: $1,000
• 22:21
  video1164012870: a bottle." Like, even back
• 22:23
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: then.
• 22:23
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: It's like, can lay case of I earn
• 22:28
  video1164012870: three months or something.
• 22:29
  video1164012870: Like- Mm it's just...
• 22:30
  video1164012870: So that
• 22:31
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: kind of environment where you're smashing these y- raw young women who don't have the social graces,
• 22:36
  video1164012870: obviously didn't grow up in a, you know, beach-side Portsea mansion, right?
• 22:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And
• 22:41
  video1164012870: trying to
• 22:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: teach them to be
• 22:42
  video1164012870: like men, for example.
• 22:44
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 22:44
  video1164012870: Like,
• 22:44
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: I wanted to sort of send up which
• 22:47
  video1164012870: hopefully I've done.
• 22:48
  video1164012870: Oh,
• 22:48
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: you have.
• 22:49
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Yes.
• 22:49
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: You did it so, so well.
• 22:51
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Um, and also I think, like, women in those types of roles, I mean, we're sort
• 22:57
  video1164012870: born to be people
• 22:57
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: pleasers as well in,
• 22:59
  video1164012870: you know-
• 22:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Yeah.
• 22:59
  video1164012870: It's like,
• 22:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: "Yeah, here, I'll do what you want.
• 23:00
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, even if it means I have
• 23:01
  video1164012870: work for
• 23:01
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: three days in a
• 23:02
  video1164012870: row without sleep, I can work..." You know, that kind of thing.
• 23:03
  video1164012870: Exactly.
• 23:04
  video1164012870: You don't really know how to say
• 23:05
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: no, do
• 23:06
  video1164012870: you?
• 23:06
  video1164012870: You just- No,
• 23:07
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it's
• 23:07
  video1164012870: impossible say yes.
• 23:08
  video1164012870: So, um, yeah, that- that's, that's where
• 23:10
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the darkly humorous comes from because, like, I've just been I've been trying to juggle the law and the writing and the, you know, writing in the car
• 23:17
  video1164012870: and the trying to write a
• 23:18
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a novel while
• 23:18
  video1164012870: you're in your
• 23:19
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: office drinking vodka at 3:00 AM'cause you're waiting
• 23:21
  video1164012870: for a fax to come
• 23:22
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: in.
• 23:22
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You're like,"That's how old I am." Like, we had faxes
• 23:24
  video1164012870: of agreements come through.
• 23:26
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So all that, like,
• 23:27
  video1164012870: trying to juggle all these
• 23:28
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: years of seeing how young women were
• 23:30
  video1164012870: treated in the workplace, seeing how older
• 23:32
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: women were treated in the workplace, smashing all of that
• 23:35
  video1164012870: so- social commentary into the background of a crime novel as well.
• 23:39
  video1164012870: So it's trying to
• 23:39
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: do lots of things.
• 23:40
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And I,
• 23:40
  video1164012870: I think, unfortunately,
• 23:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it has
• 23:42
  video1164012870: lost
• 23:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: some readers,'cause some readers have been going,"I just wanted a
• 23:46
  video1164012870: standard novel, right?
• 23:48
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 23:48
  video1164012870: "Why is she going on about
• 23:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: colonialism and fertilizer
• 23:52
  video1164012870: and
• 23:52
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Australia, and who cares about
• 23:54
  video1164012870: And you know, like
• 23:55
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: all that stuff'cause, you know, nowadays there
• 23:57
  video1164012870: are Gen Z women around
• 23:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: who go,"I'm not a And it's like, how could you know what I mean?
• 24:03
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like,'cause
• 24:03
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: they've forgotten about what it took to get them the point they're an that thing.
• 24:08
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Like, they're making
• 24:09
  video1164012870: their
• 24:09
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: from cooking on
• 24:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Instagram.
• 24:13
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I
• 24:13
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: was
• 24:13
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: just trying
• 24:13
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: to, like, do
• 24:14
  video1164012870: a big take
• 24:16
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: on that whole thing
• 24:17
  video1164012870: that we survive in order to
• 24:19
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: get good enough to just in our workplace and be taken seriously
• 24:24
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 24:24
  video1164012870: Well, l-
• 24:25
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: let's actually talk about then
• 24:26
  video1164012870: the fact
• 24:27
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: that this is not your typical Australian crime
• 24:30
  video1164012870: outback
• 24:30
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: noir rural, um, small town setting.
• 24:34
  video1164012870: Mm-hmm.
• 24:34
  video1164012870: Um, was it
• 24:35
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: deliberate, I suppose, for you to move away from those tropes?
• 24:40
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Um,
• 24:40
  video1164012870: and, and
• 24:41
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: your exploration into, um, the real And I didn't, I had no idea about this.
• 24:45
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Like, I thought I was a well-educated Australian
• 24:47
  video1164012870: citizen-...but I had no idea about
• 24:49
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: the phosphate mining, the offshore phosphate mining
• 24:51
  video1164012870: that we did.
• 24:52
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 24:52
  video1164012870: I, I
• 24:53
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: mean, yeah, that stuff
• 24:53
  video1164012870: is pretty grim.
• 24:54
  video1164012870: like the grim noir.
• 24:55
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 24:55
  video1164012870: There's just so much damage that we've left behind,
• 24:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and the fact that we have offshore detention
• 24:59
  video1164012870: now, where did that come from?
• 25:01
  video1164012870: Mm-hmm.
• 25:01
  video1164012870: It came from, you know, this history of ship mining
• 25:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: other places, right?
• 25:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Um, no, for me it wasn't I mean, it wasn't that deliberate.
• 25:07
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, I've always tried to
• 25:08
  video1164012870: You know,
• 25:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: everyone always tries to tell their own story, right?
• 25:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So, like, I've
• 25:12
  video1164012870: always just tried to tell stories that aren't,
• 25:15
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: um, completely foreign to me.
• 25:17
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So if
• 25:17
  video1164012870: I
• 25:17
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I tried
• 25:18
  video1164012870: to write a
• 25:18
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: rural noir,
• 25:20
  video1164012870: people
• 25:20
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: would go,"She doesn't know the
• 25:23
  video1164012870: back
• 25:23
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: end of a sheep from the front end." Like, this doesn't read authentically whatsoever, right?
• 25:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So for me, when I write crime novels, like I've written two young adult ones,
• 25:33
  video1164012870: They're
• 25:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: always set in because I know Melbourne, right?
• 25:37
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And so, like, I've had readers engage so hard that they've said,"I would not have driven down St.
• 25:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Kilda Road at that time of day to get
• 25:43
  video1164012870: the police station." What?
• 25:44
  video1164012870: "I disagree with Rebecca
• 25:45
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: on that," right?
• 25:46
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So, you know, like, I like
• 25:47
  video1164012870: setting it in a place that's so real and specific that when people read it they can Australian, Um, so
• 25:58
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: for me, like, trying to write
• 25:59
  video1164012870: a- domestic, rural, outback noir would just be
• 26:03
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: really wrong.
• 26:04
  video1164012870: Like, it'd be like
• 26:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: me trying to write an African
• 26:06
  video1164012870: fantasy novel.
• 26:07
  video1164012870: Like, I would
• 26:08
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: get it so wrong,
• 26:09
  video1164012870: it wouldn't be funny.
• 26:10
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, people would be picking
• 26:10
  video1164012870: it apart
• 26:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: for
• 26:11
  video1164012870: mistakes.
• 26:12
  video1164012870: Um, so
• 26:14
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it wasn't I guess, Like,
• 26:15
  video1164012870: I'm not, I'm not trying to
• 26:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: say that
• 26:16
  video1164012870: I'm prescient and I'm, you know, trying to write something different or urban where everyone
• 26:20
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: else
• 26:21
  video1164012870: doing that kind of thing, but I just don't feel like it
• 26:23
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: would've
• 26:24
  video1164012870: been authentic if I'd done that.
• 26:25
  video1164012870: Like, you know,
• 26:26
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: there is a bit of a rural
• 26:27
  video1164012870: aspect to this, but everyone's been
• 26:29
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: to a farm.
• 26:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You can describe superficially what a
• 26:32
  video1164012870: cattle farm looks like without getting it totally wrong.
• 26:34
  video1164012870: But
• 26:35
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: if I, an urban,
• 26:37
  video1164012870: you know,
• 26:38
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Melbourne-educated
• 26:38
  video1164012870: person, tried
• 26:39
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: to set a
• 26:39
  video1164012870: a novel in Alice Springs, goodness me,
• 26:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the blowback.
• 26:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: It
• 26:43
  video1164012870: would
• 26:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: be terrible, you know what I mean?
• 26:45
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So I think I take it as a basis that if you want a really
• 26:48
  video1164012870: rich
• 26:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: world,
• 26:49
  video1164012870: you
• 26:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: should actually
• 26:50
  video1164012870: understand and know what you're writing about.
• 26:52
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 26:52
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So that, you know, that takes away that whole rural romance noir thing.
• 26:56
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I can't do that.
• 26:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I've
• 26:57
  video1164012870: never been
• 26:58
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a rural person.
• 26:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And, like, my husband used to laugh
• 27:00
  video1164012870: me
• 27:01
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: because, like, we'd go
• 27:01
  video1164012870: into
• 27:02
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: country towns, and I'd go,"Oh, that pub looks You
• 27:05
  video1164012870: know, we shouldn't stop here for
• 27:06
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: lunch."
• 27:06
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And he'd be like, So we'd
• 27:08
  video1164012870: just stop, and they were the friendliest people ever, right?
• 27:11
  video1164012870: But that's the kind of person I
• 27:12
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: am.
• 27:12
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: I'd like,
• 27:13
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: my God, someone's gonna be racist to me in this country town." And, like, in- inevitably, everyone's lovely.
• 27:18
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: But that's the thing.
• 27:19
  video1164012870: I would never
• 27:19
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: be able to write the
• 27:20
  video1164012870: story there Mm-hmm
• 27:21
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: because
• 27:22
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I don't feel like I'm native to it or I don't
• 27:25
  video1164012870: like I know it well Mm.
• 27:27
  video1164012870: No,
• 27:27
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: no, I understand.
• 27:28
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: And so then how, how, did you end up weaving in...
• 27:32
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: 'Cause you, I think you called it part, uh, plot B or part B, uh, the, the sort of
• 27:37
  video1164012870: offshore- Yeah, the
• 27:37
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: B plot.
• 27:38
  video1164012870: Um- The B plot.
• 27:39
  video1164012870: Yeah,
• 27:39
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: And how did you make it seem quite seamless as well?
• 27:42
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Because, you know, Fay f- Fay starts investigating into, this kind of subplot, um, and it felt like it was still part of that narrative, the central
• 27:52
  video1164012870: narrative,
• 27:53
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Without being tacked on like this
• 27:55
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: yeah, like, oh, I wanna put a message in.
• 27:57
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: You know how
• 27:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Yeah.
• 27:58
  video1164012870: Oh, good, oh, good when you read books you're like,
• 27:59
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: "Oh, I feel like
• 28:00
  video1164012870: I'm just getting told to"- Yeah, here's the issue.
• 28:02
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 28:02
  video1164012870: Big issue right here.
• 28:03
  video1164012870: Yeah, no.
• 28:03
  video1164012870: Um, no, I try not to do that.
• 28:05
  video1164012870: I mean,
• 28:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the thing is, like, and this is not speaking out of when,
• 28:09
  video1164012870: I
• 28:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I worked in and I've worked in some
• 28:13
  video1164012870: as well,
• 28:14
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: um, you know, when
• 28:15
  video1164012870: I was a graduate, I'd be rootling
• 28:17
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: through these old boxes looking for some, you know, arcane advice that a barrister had given because
• 28:23
  video1164012870: somebody
• 28:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: needed it.
• 28:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I remember someone said in 1987, la,
• 28:27
  video1164012870: la, la.
• 28:28
  video1164012870: Go find it." Oh my gosh.
• 28:29
  video1164012870: And I'd be like,
• 28:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: There's 16 boxes of documents.
• 28:32
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Are you serious?" But see, the thing was, like,
• 28:34
  video1164012870: there was
• 28:34
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: one, there was one night
• 28:36
  video1164012870: I was there really late,
• 28:37
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and I did have to
• 28:38
  video1164012870: rootle through all these boxes, and it was
• 28:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a small Pacific
• 28:42
  video1164012870: nation that we had acted against
• 28:46
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: that was claiming something, and so I had to find something to defend against
• 28:51
  video1164012870: something
• 28:51
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: they were saying, right?
• 28:52
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And it was
• 28:52
  video1164012870: in one of those boxes.
• 28:53
  video1164012870: And so I had that in
• 28:55
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: in my head for just thought the
• 28:57
  video1164012870: might of this massively
• 28:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: wealthy firm and whoever's standing behind them, probably the
• 29:02
  video1164012870: government, trying to
• 29:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: find some response to something that this tiny country has said about something.
• 29:09
  video1164012870: They've just put a physical human there and said,"Don't
• 29:12
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: go home and watch
• 29:12
  video1164012870: the Sydney
• 29:13
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Olympics opening ceremony.
• 29:14
  video1164012870: Go through the boxes and find
• 29:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: whatever
• 29:16
  video1164012870: that quote was." So all
• 29:18
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: that
• 29:18
  video1164012870: stuff has been percolating in my head for a very long time and, um,
• 29:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I just thought to myself, how has Mr.
• 29:25
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: even with a$1 million reward on his head
• 29:27
  video1164012870: for
• 29:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the last 20 years, right?
• 29:29
  video1164012870: How has he managed to
• 29:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: escape even getting his name out there?
• 29:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like,
• 29:33
  video1164012870: no one knows at all who this person is.
• 29:36
  video1164012870: He must have been protected or he must have been so well-networked, so standard Australian that he could
• 29:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: get away with it and never be So I
• 29:45
  video1164012870: just thought, how do you do that in this society?
• 29:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You
• 29:48
  video1164012870: look
• 29:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: like
• 29:48
  video1164012870: the power
• 29:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: makers.
• 29:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You know, you look
• 29:50
  video1164012870: like the people with money,
• 29:52
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: or you have access
• 29:52
  video1164012870: to the people with money, or you have access to that kind of environment.
• 29:56
  video1164012870: And so that's why the B
• 29:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: plot's probably been percolating in my head a lot longer than the A plot because I just thought, how do people get
• 30:02
  video1164012870: away with these things?
• 30:03
  video1164012870: How
• 30:03
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: do people afford law firms
• 30:05
  video1164012870: where a, a human being charges
• 30:07
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you$1,000 an hour for advice, right?
• 30:10
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: How, how is that
• 30:11
  video1164012870: possible?
• 30:11
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 30:12
  video1164012870: So, you know, someone
• 30:13
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: for someone like me who
• 30:15
  video1164012870: grew
• 30:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: up wearing corduroy bell-bottoms in, like, some outer suburban house,
• 30:19
  video1164012870: right?
• 30:20
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: To get access to that environment and think, I will
• 30:23
  video1164012870: never
• 30:23
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: be like
• 30:24
  video1164012870: you
• 30:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: people.
• 30:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, I
• 30:25
  video1164012870: speak the language,
• 30:26
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I can write the words,
• 30:27
  video1164012870: I can quote the
• 30:28
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: footnotes, I can do all
• 30:29
  video1164012870: that, I can use
• 30:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the
• 30:30
  video1164012870: Latin,
• 30:31
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: but I'll never
• 30:32
  video1164012870: be
• 30:32
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: like
• 30:33
  video1164012870: and
• 30:34
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I'll never be able to move through the corridors of power like you, and I'll never have the same kind of experience that you
• 30:40
  video1164012870: do.
• 30:40
  video1164012870: That's
• 30:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: been with me my whole Like, I don't think you
• 30:43
  video1164012870: ever feel
• 30:44
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, I never feel
• 30:46
  video1164012870: totally Australian.
• 30:47
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 30:47
  video1164012870: I'm
• 30:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: very proud to be Australian.
• 30:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I love Australia.
• 30:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I get on the plane coming home on a Qantas flight, listen to the
• 30:52
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: music, get
• 30:53
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: teary, right?
• 30:55
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: uh, often I
• 30:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: still
• 30:57
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: find
• 30:57
  video1164012870: myself, you
• 30:58
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: know,
• 30:59
  video1164012870: in
• 30:59
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: in a full
• 30:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: of shouting people
• 31:00
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: going,
• 31:02
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I don't understand." You know,
• 31:03
  video1164012870: like I- I'm-
• 31:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I'm never gonna have the same experience that
• 31:07
  video1164012870: you guys do or feel the same way.
• 31:10
  video1164012870: But you-
• 31:10
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: you could feel that, I suppose, in the novel, like, you know, there was a lot
• 31:13
  video1164012870: of,
• 31:14
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: of rage, in there and that anger and that feeling of belonging and, you know, calling herself and in...
• 31:21
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: And we won't spoil things, but of course, Faye has...
• 31:24
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: She grapples with this.
• 31:26
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: She has two kind of sides to her personality that come through,
• 31:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Mm-hmm.
• 31:30
  video1164012870: One being Australian- The meek one.
• 31:33
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 31:33
  video1164012870: The meek one.
• 31:33
  video1164012870: And then, yeah.
• 31:34
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 31:34
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 31:34
  video1164012870: And- and
• 31:35
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: so she's battling with this as well and this sense of belonging.
• 31:38
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: So I,
• 31:39
  video1164012870: I, yeah,
• 31:39
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: definitely can see that, um, coming through.
• 31:42
  video1164012870: Um, it was an
• 31:43
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: an amazing book
• 31:43
  video1164012870: and such a page-turner.
• 31:44
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: You managed to pull so many incredible things through this novel, so yeah, congratulations,
• 31:49
  video1164012870: Rebecca.
• 31:49
  video1164012870: Thank
• 31:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you.
• 31:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Thank you.
• 31:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I'm glad it worked
• 31:51
  video1164012870: 'cause yeah, it-
• 31:52
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: To some people it reads like a pastiche of
• 31:55
  video1164012870: all the hot
• 31:55
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: topics that Rebecca's
• 31:56
  video1164012870: worried about.
• 31:57
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Um, but for they've
• 31:59
  video1164012870: actually just said,"I
• 32:00
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: just reading.""I
• 32:01
  video1164012870: didn't
• 32:02
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: think I just it."
• 32:03
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You know,'cause like they
• 32:04
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: weren't about political
• 32:06
  video1164012870: issues
• 32:07
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: she trying say?
• 32:07
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: They read it.
• 32:08
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Mm-hmm.
• 32:09
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: So I
• 32:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I
• 32:09
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: think the
• 32:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: people
• 32:09
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: who are, like,
• 32:11
  video1164012870: got hung up on the what's she trying
• 32:13
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: do?" Mm.
• 32:14
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: But then I'm happy that there's whole
• 32:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: subset of people who just
• 32:17
  video1164012870: read it and thought,"I'm
• 32:18
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: having a good
• 32:19
  video1164012870: time while I'm reading it."
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: He was supposed to be dead.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: He promised.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Hey, Book Deal Podcast listeners.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: My name is Anna Woods, and my novel, Lit, was published on the 2nd of June by Echo Publishing.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Lit asks the question, what would you do if someone you knew came back from the dead?
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: When the man she forced to disappear returns, Jin must protect her secrets or risk losing her business, her partner, perhaps even her mind.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: But dissembling isn't easy when you don't know who to trust.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: Many people who have lost someone have had the experience of recognizing them in a crowd and doing a double-take.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: This happened to me driving to work one day, and I wondered what it would be like if the person wasn't dead at all, but living a secret life.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: This led me into a shadowy world of people who have faked their own deaths, who buy fake death certificates and real dead bodies for fake wakes, or follow complicated protocols like digital pollution to ensure all traces of them disappear.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: But not everyone who disappears stays that way.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Lit is about what happens when someone returns.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: A psychological slow burn for readers of Anna Downes, JP Pomare, and Jacqueline Bublitz, Lit is a tense, twist-driven literary suspense about love, control, and the dangerous power of a secret that won't stay hidden.
• 33:45
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: So when you got the yes from Affirm,
• 33:47
  video1164012870: how did that
• 33:47
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: feel?
• 33:48
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: And then through, I suppose, the editing,'cause you've, you've obviously
• 33:52
  video1164012870: worked
• 33:52
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: with many different publishers, in your career, so I'm interested to see if there was anything different working on an adult crime book.
• 33:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Affirm were amazing because, um, I think they've been the only firm ever
• 34:03
  video1164012870: who
• 34:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: have said to me And this is not a pejorative thing.
• 34:06
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: They've said,"You need to tell more and not
• 34:08
  video1164012870: show so much."
• 34:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So, like, with my kids'
• 34:10
  video1164012870: books, like often, you
• 34:12
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you know, for example, with Tiger Daughter, there's a central suicide.
• 34:15
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 34:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Um, and so my publisher said,"You can't show any of it.
• 34:19
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, you can't show her hanging in a tree.
• 34:20
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You
• 34:21
  video1164012870: can't, you
• 34:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: can't even allude to that.
• 34:22
  video1164012870: Like, you just need to have him look out the window at
• 34:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it, And so I think
• 34:26
  video1164012870: with kids' books a lot, um, obviously tender minds, you don't wanna, like,
• 34:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: traumatize your You have to dance around
• 34:33
  video1164012870: a lot of dark topics.
• 34:35
  video1164012870: So
• 34:35
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you kind of like allude to it happening off camera, but you can't actually go,"And he
• 34:39
  video1164012870: was dripping
• 34:40
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: with blood," or you can't kill people,
• 34:41
  video1164012870: you know, on screen'cause it's for children.
• 34:44
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 34:44
  video1164012870: Um, but with Affirm,
• 34:46
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: like they, they basically
• 34:47
  video1164012870: said- Do whatever you like, but
• 34:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: make sure it's right?
• 34:51
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, make sure it's really clear.
• 34:53
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So, I mean, working in the
• 34:55
  video1164012870: legal industry, just
• 34:56
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: like in
• 34:56
  video1164012870: your own industry,
• 34:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: there's
• 34:57
  video1164012870: so much arcane language we take for granted that people understand, you know, what
• 35:02
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: ibid means
• 35:03
  video1164012870: or loc cit means
• 35:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: or, you know, what does it mean to...
• 35:06
  video1164012870: w- when we, when we do these things, what's a company
• 35:08
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: search, right?
• 35:09
  video1164012870: We just
• 35:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: assume
• 35:10
  video1164012870: that knowledge'cause we deal with
• 35:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: those,
• 35:11
  video1164012870: you know, very basic stuff every day.
• 35:14
  video1164012870: But
• 35:15
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: for a firm, they were going,
• 35:18
  video1164012870: It's a, it's actually quite a
• 35:19
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: bizarre
• 35:19
  video1164012870: industry,
• 35:20
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and if you wanna bring out how bizarre it is,
• 35:22
  video1164012870: you need to make it absolutely clear to people how non-standard this thing is
• 35:28
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: or how this thing that you've got, you've
• 35:30
  video1164012870: asked
• 35:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: one
• 35:31
  video1164012870: character to
• 35:31
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: find for another character
• 35:33
  video1164012870: is.
• 35:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, what does that mean When, when they, when they
• 35:35
  video1164012870: pull
• 35:36
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: out that
• 35:36
  video1164012870: thing and he says this,
• 35:37
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: what does that actually mean?
• 35:39
  video1164012870: What are
• 35:39
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: they looking for, right?
• 35:40
  video1164012870: And so I,
• 35:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I think what they did was actually
• 35:43
  video1164012870: take
• 35:44
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: me back to, okay,
• 35:46
  video1164012870: I need to communicate things, and that's what I do with kids books.
• 35:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I need to communicate something
• 35:50
  video1164012870: clearly to this particular audience.
• 35:52
  video1164012870: I'm now dealing with adults,
• 35:54
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: so I
• 35:54
  video1164012870: can swear, I can show blood, I can
• 35:56
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: show violence, that's fine.
• 35:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: but when I talk about, you know, this sort of
• 36:01
  video1164012870: legal environment
• 36:02
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and
• 36:02
  video1164012870: why
• 36:02
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it's so s-
• 36:02
  video1164012870: you know, like
• 36:03
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: sneaky or
• 36:04
  video1164012870: weird
• 36:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: or bizarre,
• 36:06
  video1164012870: that needs to be first explained to you can drop them in it, because
• 36:10
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: they're not gonna understand what is a law firm, why
• 36:13
  video1164012870: are there these men and
• 36:14
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: women, why do these
• 36:14
  video1164012870: people
• 36:15
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: do these
• 36:15
  video1164012870: for, why do they, you know, like, why do they have graduates?
• 36:18
  video1164012870: Like, what are they?
• 36:19
  video1164012870: So all that kind of stuff, they
• 36:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: were like,"You're
• 36:21
  video1164012870: assuming
• 36:23
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: too much.
• 36:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: People will not get from here to here.
• 36:25
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: It's
• 36:25
  video1164012870: still not clear." And so that was a really good thing with Affirm'cause it was a
• 36:29
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: shock for me, because I was like,
• 36:30
  video1164012870: I
• 36:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I haven't been, I haven't been structurally edited like this for ten I was like,
• 36:35
  video1164012870: What do you
• 36:35
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you mean I have
• 36:35
  video1164012870: do a structural
• 36:36
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: edit?" And they were like,"You need to do a
• 36:38
  video1164012870: hard structural edit." Oh.
• 36:39
  video1164012870: "And here's the, you know, 10-page Excel/Word document that you need to follow for
• 36:45
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: me to understand what you're
• 36:47
  video1164012870: talking about when you say this." Wow.
• 36:49
  video1164012870: So it was a huge
• 36:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: shock actually, because I think
• 36:52
  video1164012870: I'd gotten really lucky and I'd,
• 36:54
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I'd just turn things
• 36:55
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: in and people would say,"No
• 36:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: structural
• 36:58
  video1164012870: edit for you.
• 36:59
  video1164012870: We're just going
• 36:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: to copy edit." Fantastic,
• 37:01
  video1164012870: right?
• 37:02
  video1164012870: Like, fantastic.
• 37:02
  video1164012870: You've done, you've done
• 37:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: your six months or a year of writing, just
• 37:06
  video1164012870: commas after that- Mm-hmm and then it goes to
• 37:08
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: publication.
• 37:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: But for this one, they were"I don't know what
• 37:12
  video1164012870: you mean when
• 37:12
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you say national police check." what are you looking for with that,
• 37:17
  video1164012870: you
• 37:17
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: know?
• 37:17
  video1164012870: So all of that stuff,
• 37:19
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you had to drop it
• 37:19
  video1164012870: into the
• 37:20
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: story
• 37:20
  video1164012870: without going,
• 37:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: "Hey, reader, I'm now gonna explain to you what a national police check is."
• 37:25
  video1164012870: You know that kind of stuff?
• 37:25
  video1164012870: So- Yeah,
• 37:26
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: it's tough
• 37:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: It's really hard.
• 37:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So you're trying to,
• 37:28
  video1164012870: like, seamlessly go,"And this is
• 37:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: what a company search guy does, and this is what he generates.
• 37:34
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And from that thing that he's generated,
• 37:35
  video1164012870: you can find a clue,"
• 37:37
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: right?
• 37:37
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So it, it was like trying to bring
• 37:39
  video1164012870: people back to basics.
• 37:40
  video1164012870: Like, rather than me just going,
• 37:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: "Oh, but no one's done, like, a credit check on her," people
• 37:44
  video1164012870: like,"What is
• 37:44
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a credit check," right?
• 37:45
  video1164012870: Like, why would they be doing one on that person?
• 37:48
  video1164012870: Um, it- it's
• 37:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: trying to, like, integrate that into the story without
• 37:51
  video1164012870: bogging it
• 37:51
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: down, so
• 37:52
  video1164012870: that was quite hard.
• 37:53
  video1164012870: Like, Affirm just
• 37:53
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: said,"Pare it back,
• 37:55
  video1164012870: pare it back, Wow, yeah.
• 37:56
  video1164012870: That there was all this, like, highfalutin lovely
• 37:58
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: language in there before, and they devastated me,'cause the
• 38:02
  video1164012870: whole
• 38:02
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: of the
• 38:04
  video1164012870: They said,"Cut that
• 38:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: whole chapter
• 38:05
  video1164012870: out.
• 38:06
  video1164012870: And I was like,"No, I
• 38:08
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I love that chapter.
• 38:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I've had it since the beginning." And they're like,
• 38:11
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: doesn't
• 38:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: have a place
• 38:12
  video1164012870: anywhere in this book." They kill
• 38:14
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Your Darlings,
• 38:14
  video1164012870: It's so hard, isn't it?
• 38:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So badly.
• 38:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, it completely stabbed it and So like, you know,
• 38:19
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: I have a that first chapter, might
• 38:21
  video1164012870: even publish it one day as
• 38:26
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: one the characters' backstories.
• 38:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: they were
• 38:28
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: It has no
• 38:29
  video1164012870: place
• 38:29
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: in
• 38:29
  video1164012870: this plot, and it pulls everything back, and it's just got...
• 38:32
  video1164012870: It's
• 38:32
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: too
• 38:32
  video1164012870: slow" And
• 38:34
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: that's the thing when you're writing, like, crime, commercial crime as well,
• 38:37
  video1164012870: where you- Yeah.
• 38:38
  video1164012870: I mean, I don't think I- Have I
• 38:38
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I don't know if I've actually
• 38:40
  video1164012870: commercial crime, but, you know, this is my best attempt at that, so yeah.
• 38:43
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: No, no, no.
• 38:44
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: It's page-turning, it's gripping.
• 38:46
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Of course, it's not necessarily follows the tropes of a traditional Australian crime, you know, rural.
• 38:52
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: But I
• 38:52
  video1164012870: think it- Yeah, and like I've said, I, I probably couldn't do that.
• 38:55
  video1164012870: Like, I mean-
• 38:55
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: No, exactly.
• 38:56
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Exactly.
• 38:57
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: No, this is, this is...
• 38:57
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: It's wonderful.
• 38:58
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: And I thought that, cause it's so clever and, you know, super smart, and yes, that
• 39:04
  video1164012870: you, you
• 39:04
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: do, you don't um, you do it so well,'cause there, there is a lot of, you know, legal terms in it, but you do explain it in a way that doesn't feel like
• 39:13
  video1164012870: you're just,
• 39:14
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Hello, this is Rebecca.
• 39:15
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: I need to explain
• 39:15
  video1164012870: this term." And this is what a judgment looks like- Yeah and this is what the judge would say.
• 39:18
  video1164012870: Yeah, that kind
• 39:19
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: of stuff.
• 39:19
  video1164012870: So
• 39:19
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it's hard because, um,
• 39:21
  video1164012870: I
• 39:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: mean, in my d- in my day-to-day life, I am known
• 39:24
  video1164012870: the most
• 39:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: boring technical lawyer probably
• 39:25
  video1164012870: in my team.
• 39:27
  video1164012870: That,
• 39:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: that is what I'm supposed to do.
• 39:28
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, I'm supposed to tell you,
• 39:30
  video1164012870: "You know this
• 39:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: really arcane provision in legislation, this is what it means for us if you
• 39:36
  video1164012870: don't
• 39:36
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: follow it, right?
• 39:37
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And so I'm the most boring, boring technical lawyer
• 39:40
  video1164012870: you could
• 39:40
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: possibly imagine, but I couldn't any of that to bog down storyline
• 39:45
  video1164012870: in The Graduate.
• 39:46
  video1164012870: Mm-hmm.
• 39:46
  video1164012870: It's like, you know, you can understand it
• 39:48
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: and you
• 39:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: can
• 39:48
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: allude it, but
• 39:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: don't get caught up
• 39:50
  video1164012870: in what does
• 39:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the United Nations Charter Provision 23XI say.
• 39:54
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 39:54
  video1164012870: You know, that kind
• 39:54
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: of thing.
• 39:55
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, you just can't.
• 39:56
  video1164012870: Like,
• 39:56
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you read it as research, and then you
• 39:57
  video1164012870: kinda integrate
• 39:58
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it in one sentence, and that's all
• 40:01
  video1164012870: you can do.
• 40:01
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Mm.
• 40:02
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: If people have watched Suits, I think they'll get that.
• 40:05
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Like, you know, you know the show, TV show Suits?
• 40:09
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: There'll, be
• 40:09
  video1164012870: some knowledge there where our infamous, yeah, Her Royal Highness came from.
• 40:12
  video1164012870: But yeah.
• 40:13
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Exactly.
• 40:14
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: So, you know, I think you, yeah, the- for people who watch that, I think they'll It's kind of, sort of similar patterns.
• 40:20
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Um, now
• 40:20
  video1164012870: I want to ask
• 40:22
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: you, did you enjoy the process of writing for adults as opposed to kids?
• 40:26
  video1164012870: Um, and- Well, I'm- will you continue writing adult books?
• 40:28
  video1164012870: I would love
• 40:29
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: to, I mean, if
• 40:29
  video1164012870: anyone will have me, if they can
• 40:31
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: actually shelve it anywhere.
• 40:31
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: But,
• 40:32
  video1164012870: um- the,
• 40:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the...
• 40:33
  video1164012870: I, I,
• 40:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I, like I started off,
• 40:34
  video1164012870: like I was telling you off- offline, um, I started off trying
• 40:37
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: to write for adults really badly.
• 40:39
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So
• 40:39
  video1164012870: I think I've got five, unlike you, I've got
• 40:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: five rejected manuscripts in a drawer and
• 40:44
  video1164012870: then sort of like-
• 40:45
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: what genre
• 40:45
  video1164012870: are they?
• 40:46
  video1164012870: Probably contemporary, actually.
• 40:48
  video1164012870: Okay.
• 40:48
  video1164012870: Like, they were sort of
• 40:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: those, you know...
• 40:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I mean, I'm very old, so like late 1980s, early'90s kind of like, I don't
• 40:54
  video1164012870: know,
• 40:54
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: like vaguely romantic, vaguely literary,
• 40:56
  video1164012870: wandering around London-type things, right?
• 40:58
  video1164012870: Like, just
• 40:58
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: dreadful.
• 40:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: They were really dreadful.
• 41:00
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: But five adult things that never sort
• 41:02
  video1164012870: saw the
• 41:02
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: light of day.
• 41:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and then pragmatically started writing for kids because I thought,"Okay, what's short?
• 41:08
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: What can I finish?
• 41:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: someone like?" You
• 41:10
  video1164012870: know,
• 41:10
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: like you can
• 41:11
  video1164012870: write,
• 41:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you
• 41:11
  video1164012870: can write
• 41:12
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: to deadline.
• 41:12
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You know how to
• 41:13
  video1164012870: do...
• 41:13
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You know, you can fulfill a contract, you're a lawyer.
• 41:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: How do you do, how do you get published, right?
• 41:18
  video1164012870: So I really, really like focused on how do I get that first book published, and then I'll see what happens.
• 41:24
  video1164012870: So
• 41:25
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I'm hoping I can do more adult
• 41:27
  video1164012870: books in future
• 41:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: as well
• 41:27
  video1164012870: as kids books.
• 41:28
  video1164012870: But the good thing about writing for
• 41:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: adults is in my
• 41:33
  video1164012870: daily
• 41:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: life,
• 41:34
  video1164012870: I probably every second word is
• 41:35
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a swear word.
• 41:36
  video1164012870: And so like for my children's
• 41:38
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: books, it's like,
• 41:38
  video1164012870: they're so nice.
• 41:39
  video1164012870: Like, they're such
• 41:40
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a nice
• 41:41
  video1164012870: version of my authorial
• 41:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: voice that it's been
• 41:44
  video1164012870: so liberating to just
• 41:45
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: F, F, F, F, F, F, F.
• 41:47
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, you
• 41:47
  video1164012870: know, in this I mean, my parents read
• 41:49
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: it and they were like quite
• 41:50
  video1164012870: shocked.
• 41:50
  video1164012870: They were in that.
• 41:52
  video1164012870: We didn't know that words." So yeah, I
• 41:54
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I even
• 41:54
  video1164012870: put Chinese in it.
• 41:56
  video1164012870: So, um, I've just gone to absolute town.
• 41:58
  video1164012870: But the really good thing
• 41:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: about writing for adults you can be your And if you wanna write
• 42:04
  video1164012870: about something completely esoteric, like, you
• 42:06
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: know,
• 42:07
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: digging up fertilizer in a
• 42:08
  video1164012870: Pacific nation, you can- Mm because kids
• 42:11
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: are not gonna
• 42:11
  video1164012870: go- That's not something I can write about on my, you
• 42:15
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: know,
• 42:15
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: SAC because it's got
• 42:17
  video1164012870: no relevance to anything I'm studying.
• 42:19
  video1164012870: It's got no relevance to the themes, got no relevance
• 42:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: to the whatever
• 42:22
  video1164012870: criteria they call it nowadays.
• 42:23
  video1164012870: But
• 42:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: with adults, you can go off on these weird
• 42:25
  video1164012870: tangents and indulge in that, and it's completely fine.
• 42:29
  video1164012870: Mm-hmm.
• 42:30
  video1164012870: So it's, it's really
• 42:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: nice to write for adults because you, you actually
• 42:32
  video1164012870: are just
• 42:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: allowed to
• 42:33
  video1164012870: be yourself,
• 42:35
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Hmm.
• 42:36
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 42:36
  video1164012870: I
• 42:37
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: really want to talk to you now about your writing practice.
• 42:39
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: You've mentioned a few times
• 42:40
  video1164012870: you're
• 42:41
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: still, you're in, you're working in, as
• 42:42
  video1164012870: corporate
• 42:42
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: lawyer.
• 42:44
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: How do you balance that with the
• 42:45
  video1164012870: writing?
• 42:47
  video1164012870: Okay.
• 42:47
  video1164012870: Um,
• 42:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I don't know how you've managed to do it, but, like,
• 42:49
  video1164012870: I, I'm supposedly,
• 42:51
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: on paper, supposed to work and then the other days of the
• 42:54
  video1164012870: week I'm supposed to be writing.
• 42:56
  video1164012870: But
• 42:56
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: in reality,
• 42:58
  video1164012870: um, you know, like, often
• 42:59
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: after long workday and
• 43:01
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: everyone and everything's tidied up, I'll go back to my desk and I'll do because, you know, there's something I need to finish
• 43:08
  video1164012870: or I'm really energized about
• 43:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: something, I need to do it, or
• 43:10
  video1164012870: there's a deadline or something.
• 43:11
  video1164012870: So I basically work while my eyes are open.
• 43:14
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 43:14
  video1164012870: And that's probably you as well, right?
• 43:16
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 43:16
  video1164012870: Like, you, you're working on
• 43:17
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: something.
• 43:17
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, if
• 43:18
  video1164012870: it's It could be
• 43:18
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: technical writing, it
• 43:19
  video1164012870: be editing writing, it
• 43:20
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: could be creative writing, but you're
• 43:22
  video1164012870: just doing something while
• 43:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you're and that's pretty
• 43:26
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: much how
• 43:26
  video1164012870: you get through it.
• 43:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: There's
• 43:27
  video1164012870: no balance.
• 43:28
  video1164012870: You just keep writing.
• 43:29
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Is that sustainable?
• 43:31
  video1164012870: I think so.
• 43:31
  video1164012870: Like, I'm pretty old now, I'm still here.
• 43:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So, you know, like,
• 43:34
  video1164012870: I've You know, I'm
• 43:35
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: legendary for telling lots of kids authors,"Don't worry
• 43:38
  video1164012870: about
• 43:38
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: waiting for your kids in the car
• 43:40
  video1164012870: Just get a 20-pack of toilet roll, put your laptop on it,
• 43:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and just get there early and off you
• 43:45
  video1164012870: go," right?
• 43:46
  video1164012870: 'Cause I can literally work standing up in, like, an Aldi.
• 43:48
  video1164012870: Like, I
• 43:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I can just There doing stuff.
• 43:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You just
• 43:51
  video1164012870: do it
• 43:52
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Do you, have you ever had any moments of burnout in your
• 43:54
  video1164012870: career?
• 43:55
  video1164012870: Yeah, I actually massively burnt out.
• 43:56
  video1164012870: So like I was telling you, um,
• 43:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: off camera, the, um, the Alan and Unwin story where,
• 44:01
  video1164012870: Mm...like, I, I got rejected from the Vogel Awards for the fifth time,
• 44:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: like literally the
• 44:05
  video1164012870: fifth time.
• 44:05
  video1164012870: I'm not
• 44:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: exaggerating.
• 44:06
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And
• 44:06
  video1164012870: they said,
• 44:07
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: "You actually can write, but this was
• 44:09
  video1164012870: crap, the thing that you handed in.
• 44:10
  video1164012870: But if you write something better, we'll
• 44:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: read it, and
• 44:12
  video1164012870: here's the
• 44:12
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: name of someone you can send it to." And I was like,
• 44:14
  video1164012870: that's, like, the first real validation
• 44:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: from an adult human that I actually use these writing skills that I've, I've developed in a law firm or whatever in another
• 44:24
  video1164012870: way.
• 44:25
  video1164012870: Um,
• 44:26
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and so
• 44:26
  video1164012870: like I left
• 44:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: law'cause
• 44:27
  video1164012870: I was really burnt out.
• 44:29
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, I just...
• 44:29
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I'd been...
• 44:31
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: this is not something
• 44:31
  video1164012870: I can
• 44:31
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: really
• 44:32
  video1164012870: explain in The Graduate
• 44:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: either, but
• 44:33
  video1164012870: I'd
• 44:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: been seconded into like large corporations.
• 44:36
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So that's
• 44:36
  video1164012870: where you're not only
• 44:37
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: working as a lawyer at your firm, but you're
• 44:39
  video1164012870: also during the day
• 44:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: working for
• 44:42
  video1164012870: other people and
• 44:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: helping them with their legal team and their workload, right?
• 44:46
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So I was doing
• 44:47
  video1164012870: my practice and
• 44:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: also being seconded with these other places, and I just had back to back years and years of
• 44:53
  video1164012870: this stuff where
• 44:54
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I
• 44:54
  video1164012870: was just, like, literally
• 44:55
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I'd be lucky if I was at
• 44:57
  video1164012870: for maybe six or seven hours in a day.
• 45:00
  video1164012870: So,
• 45:01
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you know, I just thought that validation from Alan Unwin actually said
• 45:05
  video1164012870: to me,"I can take
• 45:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: time off.
• 45:06
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: I don't need I've up
• 45:08
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: up
• 45:08
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: some I see if I get
• 45:10
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: something published.
• 45:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: If I don't, I'll
• 45:11
  video1164012870: go back to work." Right?
• 45:13
  video1164012870: And it turned out that I
• 45:14
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: think I was away for 13 years
• 45:15
  video1164012870: because kids happened
• 45:17
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: in between.
• 45:18
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I've taken time off to write, but then kids happened And how do you do lawyering, writing,
• 45:22
  video1164012870: and having kids?
• 45:22
  video1164012870: You just can't.
• 45:23
  video1164012870: Something
• 45:23
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: has
• 45:24
  video1164012870: break.
• 45:24
  video1164012870: So, um, yeah, it's just been, it's re- If you look at the way my
• 45:28
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: career has developed, it's really kind of patchy and
• 45:31
  video1164012870: strange and not And, and
• 45:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: that's...
• 45:34
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I, I think
• 45:34
  video1164012870: that's most women.
• 45:35
  video1164012870: Yeah, for
• 45:36
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: sure.
• 45:36
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Balancing it.
• 45:37
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: My, um, I was talking earlier with a friend, she calls it, um, you have to have some- you have got many plates that you're sort
• 45:43
  video1164012870: tossing- Yeah, like- and balancing, but some of
• 45:45
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: them have to be plastic as well, so
• 45:47
  video1164012870: they fall they don't break.
• 45:49
  video1164012870: So it's just- And the plastic one
• 45:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: was my law career for
• 45:51
  video1164012870: a long time.
• 45:52
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 45:52
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 45:52
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, I remember coming back after 13 my husband
• 45:56
  video1164012870: I thought,"I'm gonna help little fripperies that I earn
• 45:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: through
• 45:59
  video1164012870: writing are not gonna keep us going.
• 46:01
  video1164012870: Um, I just remember going
• 46:03
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: back to the Corporations
• 46:04
  video1164012870: Act, which is, like, my primary
• 46:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: piece of legislation, thick,
• 46:07
  video1164012870: right?
• 46:07
  video1164012870: I make
• 46:07
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a joke
• 46:08
  video1164012870: about it in the novel that you could use it to kill people with, it's so thick.
• 46:12
  video1164012870: Um, and the section
• 46:13
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: that I used to work with,
• 46:14
  video1164012870: it was
• 46:14
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: completely gone.
• 46:16
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: I was like,"Where is that now?" Like,
• 46:18
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you know, the, in the 13 years I'd been away, the law had totally
• 46:23
  video1164012870: restructured.
• 46:25
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: or cannibalized itself, so it was like totally different.
• 46:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So
• 46:27
  video1164012870: yeah, that's the thing,
• 46:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: like, most women are like,"I'm trying to write a book.
• 46:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I'm also trying to like
• 46:31
  video1164012870: hold down a paid job.
• 46:32
  video1164012870: I'm trying to look after children." And
• 46:34
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: there's all
• 46:34
  video1164012870: this stuff, and like, you know, inevitably, and, you know,
• 46:37
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: people would leve-
• 46:38
  video1164012870: level this criticism at me, you're kind
• 46:40
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: of doing everything half-assed.
• 46:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: that's all, that's all we're given.
• 46:44
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: That's, that's sort of all the time and the
• 46:45
  video1164012870: space that we're given to do all this stuff, so you do the best you If you
• 46:49
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: you could, would you
• 46:52
  video1164012870: W-
• 46:52
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: would it, is your ideal that, that your writing sustains you financially
• 46:56
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: That
• 46:56
  video1164012870: That would be the ideal, but, you know, like, I, I mean, I don't know if you know
• 46:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: some really, really
• 47:00
  video1164012870: famous authors.
• 47:01
  video1164012870: I don't
• 47:02
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: But, um, you know, there's the 2% like
• 47:04
  video1164012870: Stephen King, who can endow foundations with money, but the rest of
• 47:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: us are just journey Just try our best to get...
• 47:12
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You know, like, I, I have a, a group of, um, writers that I often hang out with.
• 47:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Um,
• 47:16
  video1164012870: we mostly write YA, although some
• 47:18
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: of
• 47:18
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: us branching out into other now.
• 47:21
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: we just laugh about how
• 47:23
  video1164012870: unsustainable it is.
• 47:25
  video1164012870: Like, it still
• 47:25
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: is.
• 47:26
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Like, a lot of us have been doing it decades, and it's still
• 47:29
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 47:29
  video1164012870: And
• 47:29
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: and we're still, like, know, telling each other how advances and,
• 47:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: live off tuna to, you know, for the year with that kind of amount of money.
• 47:37
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And everyone does
• 47:38
  video1164012870: for
• 47:38
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the love.
• 47:38
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like,
• 47:38
  video1164012870: you look at the publishing firms stocked with
• 47:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: these too hard, who don't get paid.
• 47:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: It's just all these
• 47:45
  video1164012870: people just
• 47:45
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: trying to help each other get something out there, and if you get a
• 47:47
  video1164012870: contract, it's
• 47:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: actually just
• 47:49
  video1164012870: a miracle.
• 47:49
  video1164012870: It really is.
• 47:50
  video1164012870: Mm.
• 47:51
  video1164012870: Mm,
• 47:51
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Absolutely.
• 47:53
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Um, I'm also, before we finish up, I've got a couple more questions.
• 47:57
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: I'm just really interested'cause, um,
• 47:59
  video1164012870: I
• 47:59
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: also have, yeah, the day job, um, and it is very different to my creative work.
• 48:04
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: it's government, it's dealing with regulations
• 48:07
  video1164012870: and policy- Yes and, you
• 48:08
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: you know, quite dry sort of things.
• 48:11
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Do you ever
• 48:11
  video1164012870: find it
• 48:12
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: difficult to switch between your legal brain and your
• 48:16
  video1164012870: creative brain?
• 48:20
  video1164012870: I don't know, I think
• 48:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I approach everything, like even, even
• 48:22
  video1164012870: the legal technical dry stuff, I approach it with
• 48:25
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a sense
• 48:25
  video1164012870: of dark So,
• 48:28
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: um,
• 48:29
  video1164012870: I
• 48:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: think the legal stuff helps the creative stuff
• 48:32
  video1164012870: in
• 48:32
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the sense
• 48:32
  video1164012870: that nothing is
• 48:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: frightening, right?
• 48:34
  video1164012870: you know, if you've got a really terrible technical policy, regulation, whatever you're looking
• 48:39
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: at,
• 48:40
  video1164012870: you know that you need to distill it down for yourself and for other people.
• 48:44
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So no topic is too hard, right?
• 48:46
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So as a creative writer, that's very liberating because you never go,"I can't ever tackle that'cause
• 48:51
  video1164012870: never understand it." You have to
• 48:53
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: understand it in your
• 48:53
  video1164012870: day job.
• 48:54
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, if someone said to you,"I need you
• 48:55
  video1164012870: tell me about the pharmaceutical industry and how
• 48:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: they treat equine drugs," right?
• 48:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You're like,"Bloody hell, I have but I can find
• 49:02
  video1164012870: out."
• 49:03
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So that
• 49:03
  video1164012870: kind of skill is really useful for a creative writer because nothing is off limits.
• 49:06
  video1164012870: Like, you really literally can go down
• 49:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: rabbit holes and go, what nugget of,
• 49:12
  video1164012870: you know,
• 49:12
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: really
• 49:12
  video1164012870: spicy different information can I
• 49:14
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I pull out of this research
• 49:15
  video1164012870: to just drop as
• 49:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a one-liner in my
• 49:17
  video1164012870: story?
• 49:18
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So that's really useful.
• 49:19
  video1164012870: And then for the
• 49:20
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: legal side, I mean,
• 49:21
  video1164012870: know, you shouldn't be saying this out loud, but if
• 49:23
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you're a creative thinker and you've got a really
• 49:27
  video1164012870: problem to get around, it's the best skill in the
• 49:29
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: world
• 49:30
  video1164012870: because you're
• 49:30
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: not gonna be blinkered by,
• 49:32
  video1164012870: "But the words just say this."
• 49:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You're like,"Well,
• 49:34
  video1164012870: no,
• 49:34
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: no, the words could say something else if you read it So
• 49:38
  video1164012870: I
• 49:38
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: think they're both-- It's actually, um, I mean, this is not a secret.
• 49:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, my, my parents pushed me to really
• 49:46
  video1164012870: hard
• 49:47
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And I've, you know,
• 49:48
  video1164012870: brought down the family name for generations now because I never did that.
• 49:51
  video1164012870: I went and
• 49:51
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: did law instead.
• 49:52
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: But the thing about being a lawyer is, and this is what I, you know, as a child, handing in that picture book as a fourteen-year-old to some publishing house,
• 50:00
  video1164012870: how
• 50:01
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: do I get the keys to the kingdom?
• 50:03
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: How do
• 50:03
  video1164012870: I
• 50:03
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I understand how to become a writer?
• 50:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I need to work with I don't need to work with dead bodies or living bodies.
• 50:10
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I need to work with Okay?
• 50:11
  video1164012870: So it was quite deliberate for me to go,"Actually, I'm not gonna
• 50:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: and I'm gonna do law.
• 50:17
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And I know you don't understand it, Mom and Dad,'cause it's not scientific, but
• 50:21
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: I need the
• 50:22
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: tools
• 50:23
  video1164012870: that this
• 50:23
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: career
• 50:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: will give me
• 50:25
  video1164012870: to become a writer.
• 50:26
  video1164012870: Mm-hmm.
• 50:26
  video1164012870: So, like, it's a
• 50:27
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: a really long game
• 50:28
  video1164012870: kind of thing.
• 50:28
  video1164012870: But for me it was
• 50:29
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: always,
• 50:30
  video1164012870: how do I get the
• 50:31
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: ability
• 50:31
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: to move
• 50:32
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: through
• 50:32
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: this society in way that, you help and my family and help me navigate difficulties
• 50:40
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Law can help me do that.
• 50:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And how do I
• 50:42
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: become
• 50:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: good
• 50:43
  video1164012870: writer?
• 50:44
  video1164012870: Law can also
• 50:45
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: help me do that, because at the end of the day, even though it's a
• 50:48
  video1164012870: 32-page
• 50:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: advice, am just trying to
• 50:50
  video1164012870: tell someone something so that they So they're very compatible, I love
• 50:56
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: that you found that compatibility.
• 50:58
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Um, uh, I think too, working in a corporate environment and working in government, I feel like
• 51:04
  video1164012870: I've,
• 51:05
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: uh It really helps build your resilience as
• 51:08
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Yeah, absolutely.
• 51:09
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: 'Cause you're
• 51:09
  video1164012870: just the people that you meet, right?
• 51:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, the situations you're thrown in, you're like,"Oh
• 51:13
  video1164012870: my God,
• 51:13
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I would never, ever have met
• 51:15
  video1164012870: anyone like you except for I- Yeah, exactly.
• 51:18
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 51:18
  video1164012870: Exactly.
• 51:19
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: And, you know, people often will have, you know, it, it's a collaborative kind of thing working in government, working in law.
• 51:25
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Um, people will rip into your writing.
• 51:28
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: People will question you.
• 51:30
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: They will, um, come to you and say, you know, what put forward is wrong,
• 51:35
  video1164012870: and I'm going to fix you." And you have to defend yourself.
• 51:37
  video1164012870: That's it.
• 51:38
  video1164012870: Yeah, that's at the end.
• 51:38
  video1164012870: You have to defend yourself.
• 51:38
  video1164012870: And, you know, like, it, it teaches you how
• 51:40
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: to communicate
• 51:41
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: verbally as
• 51:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: well as,
• 51:42
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: like, in writing, but
• 51:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: also,
• 51:43
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: like, those big archetypal you know,
• 51:47
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: if, if
• 51:47
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: I had
• 51:48
  video1164012870: my way, I would just sit at home in my kitchen,
• 51:50
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you know,
• 51:50
  video1164012870: 24 hours a day and not speak to people'cause I'm a massive introvert, right?
• 51:54
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 51:54
  video1164012870: But
• 51:54
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: in your job, you are forced to
• 51:56
  video1164012870: deal
• 51:56
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: with customer service persons who does not understand your email, board director who doesn't agree with your, you know, take on this particular, you know, breach that you're reporting about.
• 52:06
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You've got to, like, try
• 52:07
  video1164012870: and, you know,
• 52:08
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: pitch things to
• 52:09
  video1164012870: different audiences, and
• 52:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: that's for a writer, because you're trying to get something across to a particular audience, and you're able to your daily life on tons of people, like tons
• 52:22
  video1164012870: people- That's right...from
• 52:23
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: every walk of life, every
• 52:24
  video1164012870: background
• 52:25
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: And I've never had
• 52:26
  video1164012870: an issue when
• 52:27
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: I've received my editing reports where I've, I've,
• 52:30
  video1164012870: or I felt, you
• 52:31
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: know, defensive because I kind of anticipate and expect that
• 52:36
  video1164012870: Yeah will be
• 52:37
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: feedback and comments and it won't always be positive because that's what you get in your day-to-day
• 52:42
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: That's the nature of the day job, yeah.
• 52:43
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And, and
• 52:44
  video1164012870: I think
• 52:44
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: as well, like, I think the best kinds of writers, and the ones who, who have the least trouble with
• 52:50
  video1164012870: cause I've seen
• 52:51
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: writers who've fought every
• 52:52
  video1164012870: amendment.
• 52:53
  video1164012870: Like, you
• 52:54
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: know, they, they approach things on the basis my work is a work of genius, it cannot be touched, and if you touch it, you are insulting right?
• 53:02
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: You are doing something to the core of
• 53:05
  video1164012870: me as a
• 53:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: creative But for me, it's like
• 53:08
  video1164012870: if you don't understand something
• 53:10
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I've said or you've given
• 53:11
  video1164012870: me, you know,
• 53:12
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: feedback that I
• 53:13
  video1164012870: perceive as negative, I've
• 53:14
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: clearly not communicated in
• 53:18
  video1164012870: an understandable way.
• 53:19
  video1164012870: So for
• 53:20
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: me, it's like bring on the feedback.
• 53:22
  video1164012870: 'cause if,
• 53:22
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: if there's something that you're not understanding or you don't like, I've done not universal enough
• 53:30
  video1164012870: or I've done something, like, not clear enough.
• 53:32
  video1164012870: And so for me, every piece of feedback
• 53:34
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: is
• 53:34
  video1164012870: like, it challenges me to think about someone
• 53:38
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: else's perspective
• 53:38
  video1164012870: on it, which
• 53:40
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: is
• 53:40
  video1164012870: you know, it, it's
• 53:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: the best kind of way.
• 53:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: 'Cause, like, instead of just, like,
• 53:44
  video1164012870: producing books
• 53:45
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: and saying,"Here's my work
• 53:47
  video1164012870: genius.
• 53:48
  video1164012870: It's untouchable.
• 53:49
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: and I'm not
• 53:51
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Just receive
• 53:51
  video1164012870: the greatness," right?
• 53:53
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: That's not a
• 53:54
  video1164012870: two-way dialogue with
• 53:55
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: your reader, and I don't think
• 53:57
  video1164012870: they're
• 53:57
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: necessarily gonna love it or remember it either because they'll They may go,"That book was like a remote mountaintop.
• 54:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: so
• 54:04
  video1164012870: perfect and crystalline and cold and, you know, perfectly
• 54:07
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: articulated that I can't even remember what happened,"'cause
• 54:10
  video1164012870: they just
• 54:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: talked about But if you can actually engage with them and
• 54:14
  video1164012870: thinking about it, and they think about it
• 54:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: after they put the book down
• 54:17
  video1164012870: and
• 54:17
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: then they think about it for a bit longer and they tell their friend to read it, you've done your job, right?
• 54:22
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I think
• 54:22
  video1164012870: it's kind of, it's okay
• 54:24
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: to receive
• 54:24
  video1164012870: feedback, and I think it's actually necessary for you to grow as a writer to
• 54:28
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: take that
• 54:29
  video1164012870: Yeah,
• 54:29
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: agreed.
• 54:30
  video1164012870: Agreed.
• 54:31
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Um, we always finish, Rebecca, asking, um, our guests their top tip for writers.
• 54:37
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Can you give us, uh, your top
• 54:39
  video1164012870: tip,
• 54:41
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: My top tip for writers is read as much as you can in every genre
• 54:45
  video1164012870: possible.
• 54:45
  video1164012870: You know, like, anything, like, you know, back of a
• 54:48
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: cereal box, newspapers,
• 54:50
  video1164012870: magazines,
• 54:51
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: even a Reader's Digest, there's something you
• 54:53
  video1164012870: can
• 54:53
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: get out of it.
• 54:54
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like,
• 54:54
  video1164012870: often
• 54:55
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: find when I'm writing something, if I sort of, like,
• 54:58
  video1164012870: get
• 54:58
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: pulled into holes of research, I don't
• 55:00
  video1164012870: mind, because often I'll get
• 55:03
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: into some topic that I wasn't even thinking about and something in an academic article or something will like present itself and I can just drop it into the story and it makes it more realistic.
• 55:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So you know
• 55:12
  video1164012870: the name of
• 55:12
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a drug
• 55:13
  video1164012870: or, um, something that's happening in some, you know, obscure
• 55:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: country somewhere or some government
• 55:17
  video1164012870: kind of policy.
• 55:19
  video1164012870: All of that can make your writing a lot better, but for you
• 55:21
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: to find
• 55:22
  video1164012870: it,
• 55:22
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you need to read it.
• 55:23
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: And so you need to like, not be afraid to read
• 55:25
  video1164012870: outside your comfort zone.
• 55:27
  video1164012870: Mm-hmm.
• 55:27
  video1164012870: 'Cause I think a
• 55:27
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: a lot of writers just
• 55:28
  video1164012870: go-
• 55:29
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: "I just write romance, so I'm just gonna
• 55:32
  video1164012870: read romance.
• 55:32
  video1164012870: And I think
• 55:33
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you're
• 55:33
  video1164012870: doing
• 55:34
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: yourself a massive
• 55:35
  video1164012870: disservice, because you
• 55:36
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: could your romance novel 50,000 better you
• 55:40
  video1164012870: and you drop that stuff in your romance
• 55:43
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Yeah, agreed.
• 55:44
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Agreed.
• 55:45
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: And, you know, with your busy life, Rebecca, making time to read must be a challenge, uh, given you've got so many plates that
• 55:52
  video1164012870: spinning above your head.
• 55:52
  video1164012870: Well,
• 55:53
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: I've just adopted this dog, I was
• 55:54
  video1164012870: telling you.
• 55:54
  video1164012870: Yes.
• 55:55
  video1164012870: She's super
• 55:55
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: clingy.
• 55:55
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: Like, she'll come over
• 55:56
  video1164012870: to
• 55:56
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: you and just
• 55:57
  video1164012870: put her paws on your chest, and you're like,"Can you get
• 55:59
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: your
• 55:59
  video1164012870: dog breath out of my face?
• 56:00
  video1164012870: I'm trying to
• 56:00
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: read this novel by Christian White," right?
• 56:02
  video1164012870: "Can you just..." So yeah, it's
• 56:04
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: hard at the
• 56:04
  video1164012870: moment,'cause she just will not
• 56:05
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: leave me
• 56:06
  video1164012870: alone.
• 56:06
  video1164012870: She's just constantly, like,
• 56:08
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: limpet, limpet.
• 56:09
  video1164012870: But, you know, apart from that, like, you know,
• 56:11
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: standing up reading,
• 56:12
  video1164012870: I'm happy to do that if she's just down on the floor.
• 56:14
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: So yeah, just keep reading, everyone.
• 56:16
  audioRebeccaLim21164012870: It's
• 56:17
  video1164012870: Perfect.
• 56:18
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Great advice, Rebecca.
• 56:19
  audioMadeleineCleary11164012870: Thank you so much for joining us on The Book Deal podcast, and The Graduate is out right now in all good bookshops.
• 56:25
  video1164012870: So thank you for being here.
• 56:26
  video1164012870: Thanks so much, Madeleine.
• 56:27
  video1164012870: Yeah.
• 56:27
  video1164012870: Lovely to talk.
• 56:28
  video1164012870: Thank you Thank you.
• 56:29
  Speaker 7: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Book Deal Podcast.
• 56:33
  Speaker 7: If you are enjoying the pod, we'd really appreciate you following or sharing the show in your podcast directory, checking us out on Instagram and Facebook, or supporting us through our Patreon community at patreon.com/thebookdealpodcast