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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Loved to Death -The Murder of James Nalborczyk · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:01
Speaker 1: Body doctors with Joseph Scott more years ago, I was
0:08
Speaker 1: on a task force that set up the national standards
0:16
Speaker 1: for medical legal death investigations and it was a real
0:21
Speaker 1: honor to be a part of that task force. But
0:26
Speaker 1: as part of this we had to become proctors. And
0:31
Speaker 1: not only did we develop the curriculum, but back then
0:35
Speaker 1: you had to have proctery or test sites where you
0:38
Speaker 1: would go and learn how to administer the test. And
0:43
Speaker 1: this was all funded by the FEDS. During that period
0:46
Speaker 1: of time, I had the privilege of going to the
0:53
Speaker 1: State and Medical Examiner's office in Maryland, and there I
1:00
Speaker 1: got to see the inner workings of an office that
1:04
Speaker 1: has been in existence for many, many years, that has
1:09
Speaker 1: quite the story history. As a matter of fact, it
1:12
Speaker 1: was probably one of the first medical examiner, true medical
1:16
Speaker 1: examiner systems in the nation. But they've seen a thing
1:22
Speaker 1: or two over the years. But I got to tell you,
1:27
Speaker 1: working at the Medical Examiner, particularly in a place is
1:32
Speaker 1: busy as Maryland is, you never know what's going to
1:36
Speaker 1: roll through the door, even if that body comes in
1:45
Speaker 1: in multiple pieces. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags, Hey, Dave,
1:56
Speaker 1: This case that has been in the news this past week.
2:00
Speaker 1: It hadn't even really entered onto my radar, and I
2:05
Speaker 1: was kind of shocked by it because it's so over
2:09
Speaker 1: the top relative to the forensic evidence and relative Well,
2:13
Speaker 1: let's just start at the beginning.
2:15
Speaker 2: Starting from the top. Here, it is Micheline A Goodwin
2:18
Speaker 2: and James Nebord Check our boyfriend and girlfriend. They're in
2:20
Speaker 2: a relationship and they're living together. A friend named Larry
2:24
Speaker 2: Murphy is at their house when Michelina and James get
2:26
Speaker 2: into a fight and an argument ended upstairs bedroom. Larry
2:29
Speaker 2: Murphy tries to inner seed. They said, get out of here,
2:31
Speaker 2: go downstairs, leave us alone. The argument continues, and then
2:35
Speaker 2: while he's downstairs, Larry Murphy, here's a gunshot. What happens
2:41
Speaker 2: next is why we're talking about this story. Micheline A
2:44
Speaker 2: Goodwin comes down the stairs. I just shot James. Now,
2:49
Speaker 2: Larry Murphy, you've really got three choices. One, pick up
2:52
Speaker 2: the phone and call nine to one one get help now.
2:55
Speaker 2: Two call nine one one, tell the police. This woman
2:58
Speaker 2: just killed her boyfriend. That's two and number three. Let
3:02
Speaker 2: me grab my car keys, load him and let's go.
3:03
Speaker 2: We're taking him to the hospital. We'll deal with the
3:06
Speaker 2: consequences later. None of those choices seem good to Micheline,
3:09
Speaker 2: a good one. Here's what she wants Larry Murphy to do.
3:11
Speaker 2: I need you, Larry to help me cut up his body,
3:17
Speaker 2: put it in bags, and let's go and get rid
3:20
Speaker 2: of it in a couple of different counties in Maryland,
3:22
Speaker 2: rural areas that nobody will ever find his body. And
3:25
Speaker 2: that's what they do. They don't call for help, nothing
3:28
Speaker 2: they do. It boggles my mind. And then the family
3:33
Speaker 2: of James Aboard Chick, it's coming up on Christmas this
3:36
Speaker 2: December twenty first, and the family realizes nobody has spoken
3:40
Speaker 2: to or seen James in a while, and they're comparing
3:43
Speaker 2: notes and realize, hey, last time we need to talk
3:45
Speaker 2: to him was December seventh. Nobody knows where he is,
3:48
Speaker 2: and it's December twenty first. So let's go to the police.
3:51
Speaker 2: We haven't seen him in two weeks, we don't know
3:53
Speaker 2: where he is. Help us find James Neboord Chick. And
3:56
Speaker 2: that's where the missing person's case begins. Now where do
3:59
Speaker 2: you think police going to go? First? Yeah, right back
4:02
Speaker 2: to Michelin, A good one's house, because that's where James
4:06
Speaker 2: was living with her now, Joe, I don't know what's
4:09
Speaker 2: in the water. I don't know why. We've had so
4:11
Speaker 2: many stories about people getting dismembered, but it seems like
4:15
Speaker 2: a thing now.
4:16
Speaker 1: You know, maybe it's just our perception, but this idea
4:22
Speaker 1: of you know, scattering the remains, it actually reminds me
4:28
Speaker 1: of a case. I think it was from back in thousand,
4:33
Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen, and there was actually a young
4:39
Speaker 1: mother who was divorced. If I'm not mistaken, she was
4:44
Speaker 1: a nurse and she had met a guy online and
4:52
Speaker 1: while they were she's going out with a date with
4:56
Speaker 1: this guy and he was like a homeless guy. I
4:58
Speaker 1: remember her name was Ingrid Lynn. I don't know if
5:02
Speaker 1: you remember that case. We covered it extensively. We you
5:06
Speaker 1: know it was I was on with Nancy and then
5:08
Speaker 1: back in the hl N days and all that. But
5:11
Speaker 1: that individual actually took her out on a date, and
5:15
Speaker 1: believe it or not, I know you're you're a big
5:17
Speaker 1: baseball person, took her to a Mariner's game. That was
5:20
Speaker 1: their first name.
5:21
Speaker 2: Wow.
5:22
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, Actually, Kim and I are first date was
5:24
Speaker 1: a Braves game. So you know you're thinking, wow, okay,
5:27
Speaker 1: you're going to take her out to a ball game,
5:30
Speaker 1: and then he takes her back to her home and
5:35
Speaker 1: kills her in her home and then uses uses a
5:43
Speaker 1: limb saw to dismember her in her bathtub. And what
5:49
Speaker 1: it has in common with this is that he deposited
5:55
Speaker 1: her remains in various locations around the city. I'll never
6:01
Speaker 1: forget that the guy that found he went to pull
6:05
Speaker 1: his recycling bin now back from the street back to
6:09
Speaker 1: his house, and it felt heavy, and he looked down
6:11
Speaker 1: in it and there was a bag and there was
6:13
Speaker 1: a human footsticking about it.
6:14
Speaker 2: And this is in Seattle. They really care. That's ecology.
6:17
Speaker 2: You know, they made sure. And he's thinking, hey, who
6:20
Speaker 2: put real trash.
6:21
Speaker 1: In exactly, And so he's moving this thing around and
6:24
Speaker 1: there it is. But you know, you think about this case.
6:28
Speaker 1: They didn't just they didn't just deposit her remains in
6:33
Speaker 1: Charles County. They actually went into did I say she?
6:39
Speaker 2: Yeah you did. But it's okay. Look in the in
6:41
Speaker 2: the game we played Joe, anymore, you might even insult
6:45
Speaker 2: somebody that's a guy that you say, you know, we
6:47
Speaker 2: can't say he or she. We're gonna have to come
6:49
Speaker 2: up with they and them and stuff like that to
6:52
Speaker 2: cover these I know this.
6:54
Speaker 1: They deposited Jimmy's remains and not just uh in Charles
7:00
Speaker 1: County but also St. Mary's County.
7:01
Speaker 2: Are these far away you know a lot about it?
7:03
Speaker 1: No, they literally bump up against one another. And where's Baltimore? Say,
7:08
Speaker 1: is Baltimore in one of those counties? Yeah, it's like
7:10
Speaker 1: primarily I think in Charles County, But you know, like
7:13
Speaker 1: so many of these metroplex areas like this, it expands
7:17
Speaker 1: out so far. You think about Atlanta, you think about
7:20
Speaker 1: d C and Baltimore. It's really it used to be
7:22
Speaker 1: where there was like this dividing line. And even to
7:27
Speaker 1: and I'll probably get called out on this, but even
7:29
Speaker 1: up to like Philly, it's almost like you kind of
7:32
Speaker 1: bounce from one to another and you never really know
7:35
Speaker 1: where you are, you know, other than you cross state
7:38
Speaker 1: lines and whatnot, because it's just this continuous flow. But
7:41
Speaker 1: if you're familiar with the area and you think about, well, okay,
7:45
Speaker 1: I'm not just going to sit here and deposit remains
7:48
Speaker 1: in one location. I think that what we ought to
7:53
Speaker 1: do is make an initial deposition of remains and then
7:58
Speaker 1: we're going to migrate over to an adjacent county and
8:02
Speaker 1: deposit more there. I don't know, Davy. If let's try
8:05
Speaker 1: to get inside the skin of somebody that's doing this,
8:08
Speaker 1: what what do you think as the lay person here,
8:12
Speaker 1: what do you think is the rationale for wanting to
8:15
Speaker 1: do that?
8:17
Speaker 2: You know, I thought about this, Joe, that you would
8:20
Speaker 2: want to get you and the deceased parts as far
8:26
Speaker 2: away as you can, right. You want them to be
8:28
Speaker 2: hidden because you're going to so many these times when
8:32
Speaker 2: we cover cases, people admit what they've done. As soon
8:34
Speaker 2: as they get caught, they talk to the cops and
8:36
Speaker 2: within a matter of minutes, there you know, here is
8:39
Speaker 2: the truth, Here's what really happened. Why'd you bother doing it?
8:41
Speaker 1: Then?
8:42
Speaker 2: If you're going to give up the truth so fast,
8:44
Speaker 2: why did you bother doing this? You take the person's life, really,
8:47
Speaker 2: can't you? Anyway?
8:49
Speaker 1: That's I'm guessing this is this is a lot of
8:51
Speaker 1: work too. It is that I know that's very morbid,
8:54
Speaker 1: but this is a lot of work, and I think
8:56
Speaker 1: you're right on the money here. Why you know, why
8:59
Speaker 1: would you give up the information? So I asked, if
9:02
Speaker 1: you've done it.
9:03
Speaker 2: When you've spread them everywhere again, spread across two counties,
9:06
Speaker 2: and actually two different states are involved here. You're dealing
9:08
Speaker 2: with Maryland and Virginia.
9:10
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, well yeah, and it's spread out over
9:13
Speaker 1: this huge area. Here's another thing too, for every And
9:17
Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated by this, the idea, and you
9:21
Speaker 1: had mentioned it just a second ago, and you've got
9:23
Speaker 1: You've kind of got plus is uh as an upside
9:26
Speaker 1: and a downside here. I found that with killers, many
9:31
Speaker 1: times they keep remains near them in some instances. And
9:37
Speaker 1: I think the reason that keep remains near them it's
9:41
Speaker 1: a control issue. They want to know that the body
9:45
Speaker 1: is where I put it, I have, you know. And
9:48
Speaker 1: that's why I think some people bury bodies in yards
9:50
Speaker 1: in their backyard, you know, because it seems counterintuitive, right,
9:53
Speaker 1: I'm going to kill somebody, but yet I'm going to
9:55
Speaker 1: hang on to the remains. I'm going to bury them
9:57
Speaker 1: in the backyard. I had a case in in South
10:00
Speaker 1: Louisiana that I consulted on at one point in time,
10:03
Speaker 1: and a guy had killed his wife and had buried
10:08
Speaker 1: her in the backyard and had taken had gone to
10:14
Speaker 1: Walmart and bought I think like fifteen rose bushes, and
10:21
Speaker 1: the neighbors said later on, yeah, one night we heard
10:26
Speaker 1: him working in the backyard. We got up the next
10:29
Speaker 1: morning and looked over the fence and there's a rose
10:32
Speaker 1: garden where one had not been. I mean the roses
10:36
Speaker 1: were not blooming. Wow, but you know, the roses were there.
10:39
Speaker 1: And it took them years years to decide. Well, first off,
10:45
Speaker 1: he had the house. They couldn't get a search warrant
10:47
Speaker 1: for it. And when the new people moved in that
10:50
Speaker 1: he had sold it. I guess he thought that people
10:52
Speaker 1: had forgotten about it. They go out there and they
10:55
Speaker 1: dig up the rose garden. Sure enough, there she is.
10:58
Speaker 1: And they went in and luminol them up. Best friends
11:00
Speaker 1: did aluminol. Wow in the basement of this place, and
11:03
Speaker 1: there was blood everywhere. He had painted, recarpeted, all this
11:06
Speaker 1: sort of stuff down there, and he couldn't They still
11:09
Speaker 1: show up, Yeah, yeah, yeah, And so they were able
11:12
Speaker 1: to determine. They couldn't type it or anything, but they
11:15
Speaker 1: knew something horrible it happened.
11:17
Speaker 2: But it's okay. Where I always thought, they keep the
11:20
Speaker 2: body closer, the body parts, because that way they know
11:23
Speaker 2: if anybody finds anything, they be like in Atlanta, where
11:26
Speaker 2: we're dealing with Christopher Wolfenberger, you've got him murdering, allegedly
11:30
Speaker 2: murdering his wife in nineteen ninety nine and cutting her
11:32
Speaker 2: all up, and her skull shows up on this in
11:35
Speaker 2: an industrial park area. Well if you actually think, and
11:38
Speaker 2: then her other body parts show up a couple of
11:40
Speaker 2: days later.
11:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's only arms and legs. We still don't
11:43
Speaker 1: know what happened to her, torso, but then they go away.
11:45
Speaker 1: I got to say this right now, tip of the cap,
11:48
Speaker 1: Tip of the cap to my good friend Cheryl McCollum.
11:53
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, she spent a lot of time on
11:55
Speaker 2: this case.
11:56
Speaker 1: She sure did. And I recommend to anybody at this point,
12:00
Speaker 1: if you get a chance, you need to go listen
12:01
Speaker 1: to his own seven. It was absolutely amazing, great work
12:04
Speaker 1: on Cheryl's part.
12:05
Speaker 2: Well, you know that Wolfenberger case, Joe, he actually Christopher Wolfenberger,
12:10
Speaker 2: the husband of Melissa. Yeah, that was a road that
12:13
Speaker 2: he drove every day to work. He worked right there.
12:15
Speaker 2: So you've got him basically putting her body in an
12:18
Speaker 2: area that he.
12:18
Speaker 1: Knows, right, And that's one of the things that's interested
12:23
Speaker 1: me about that case in particular, is that he worked
12:28
Speaker 1: at a glass shop. Well, what do they use at
12:30
Speaker 1: glass shops. People don't think about this. They actually use
12:34
Speaker 1: cutting tools and they're very fine cutting tools. And so
12:38
Speaker 1: you think about our case today with Jimmy, and you
12:42
Speaker 1: think about this idea. Did who had access to tools,
12:46
Speaker 1: who had the knowledge in order to actually take him apart?
12:51
Speaker 1: And where could you do it? Sequestered like this? But
12:55
Speaker 1: back to the idea of the deposition or remains, Dave, Okay,
12:59
Speaker 1: if you're.
13:00
Speaker 2: Did the opposite of what we were talking about, well.
13:02
Speaker 1: I think percentage wise, percentage wise okay, if you're thinking,
13:08
Speaker 1: because the only thing I could think of is that
13:10
Speaker 1: if you're if you're going out to deposit human remains,
13:14
Speaker 1: dismembered human remains, by the way, in various locations like this,
13:21
Speaker 1: you're now upping the probability that you're going to get
13:24
Speaker 1: caught because you have these things dispersed and so if
13:28
Speaker 1: some citizen just comes walking by, you might find one here,
13:32
Speaker 1: you might find one there. And I you know, and
13:34
Speaker 1: I think, well, maybe the rationale was, well, if we
13:37
Speaker 1: put him out all over the place, if we put
13:40
Speaker 1: him out all over the place, perhaps they'll think that
13:42
Speaker 1: these things are not related in some way. And what
13:47
Speaker 1: they don't count on, and what many don't count on
13:51
Speaker 1: is that in the end, science always tell us the truth.
14:10
Speaker 1: Here's the weird thing, Dave. And going back to this
14:15
Speaker 1: kind of point of order you brought up a few
14:17
Speaker 1: moments ago. If if you go to all the trouble
14:26
Speaker 1: to first off kill someone and then go to a
14:31
Speaker 1: lot of trouble to dismember them, why are you going
14:36
Speaker 1: to roll over on it? And from what you're telling me,
14:40
Speaker 1: that's essentially what this woman did. Am I correct?
14:45
Speaker 2: I'm so amazed at again the effort, the effort it
14:49
Speaker 2: takes to do everything that Michelina Goodwin did, along with
14:55
Speaker 2: help from Larry Murphy, apparently that they did to James
14:59
Speaker 2: and bod Chick. They a gun accidentally fires and kills
15:06
Speaker 2: the man and he's missing. Those are two separate things.
15:11
Speaker 2: One we know he's dead, two we know he's missing.
15:14
Speaker 2: So you got two groups of people, the people who
15:16
Speaker 2: did the killing. Well, the person who did the killing,
15:18
Speaker 2: she knows he's dead, and the guy that helped her
15:21
Speaker 2: with them, he knows he's dead. But you know what
15:23
Speaker 2: everybody else, James is missing. His family thinks he's missing.
15:28
Speaker 2: That where did he go? Now? First thing, police do
15:32
Speaker 2: they pull backgrounds on everybody. They know if you're not
15:36
Speaker 2: just lost stuff, not just booking in jail and things.
15:39
Speaker 2: They know. They talk to friends, they talk to relatives.
15:41
Speaker 2: They know if you have a drug problem, they know
15:43
Speaker 2: if you have a gambling problem, they know who you are.
15:45
Speaker 2: The people that are closest to this case, they know
15:48
Speaker 2: what they're dealing with, and they use this information because
15:52
Speaker 2: they don't believe what they're being told. Grown people don't
15:55
Speaker 2: just go missing and drop off the face of the
15:57
Speaker 2: earth for no reason. If it's out of care. There
16:00
Speaker 2: are some people who do leave. There are some people
16:02
Speaker 2: who do not maintain regular contact with their family, and
16:06
Speaker 2: their family doesn't report them missing.
16:08
Speaker 1: There have been a few times in my life when
16:10
Speaker 1: I have felt about this. It felt like disappearing, but
16:13
Speaker 1: not chosen to do that.
16:14
Speaker 2: I gotta get away, gotta get away. But in this case,
16:18
Speaker 2: the family does have contact with James and Borchick on
16:20
Speaker 2: a fairly regular basis, So when they realize they haven't
16:23
Speaker 2: talked to him in several days, they've tried to find out.
16:27
Speaker 2: So they go to his girlfriend Michelina. Where is he
16:30
Speaker 2: don't know? Haven't seen him? Have you reported him missing?
16:32
Speaker 2: Have you tried to find him? Nah, we were arguing,
16:35
Speaker 2: he split up, We were breaking up, any number of things. Okay,
16:38
Speaker 2: we were breaking up. Oh wait a minute, I remember
16:41
Speaker 2: he took his work truck. See I told him I
16:43
Speaker 2: was going to break up with him. So he took
16:44
Speaker 2: his work drug and he drove off to West Virginia
16:47
Speaker 2: singing a John Denver songs. He's over there somewhere working.
16:51
Speaker 2: Look for the work truck.
16:52
Speaker 1: You know.
16:53
Speaker 2: That was the story. We had an argument, we broke up,
16:56
Speaker 2: he took his work trug and left the state. So
17:00
Speaker 2: that's what the investigators are left with. They have Micheline,
17:04
Speaker 2: a Goodwin and Larry Murphy who were there, and then
17:07
Speaker 2: they have the missing man, James, the bor chick. The
17:10
Speaker 2: story they're told us he is not believable in reality
17:13
Speaker 2: because you'd be able to find him. If that was
17:15
Speaker 2: the case, he would be talking to family. If that
17:19
Speaker 2: was the case, you guys broke up and he left,
17:21
Speaker 2: the family would know they talked to him. So he
17:24
Speaker 2: ain't talking to anybody. So the police are going to
17:27
Speaker 2: look at it a little bit closer, so they start
17:29
Speaker 2: leaning on him. Now we're talking about last time he's
17:32
Speaker 2: seen December seventh, Reported missing December twenty first, right before Christmas.
17:37
Speaker 2: That's a special time for every family in one way
17:40
Speaker 2: or another. And they don't know where he is. So
17:43
Speaker 2: here we are. By the time police have had their
17:47
Speaker 2: fill of following the false leads and they sit down
17:50
Speaker 2: with Micheline a goodwin, they're gonna hit her hard. They're
17:54
Speaker 2: going to really lean because they're not believing her story. Joe,
17:58
Speaker 2: Can they go into the house and find out out
18:00
Speaker 2: of a gun's been fired?
18:02
Speaker 1: Can they go into a house and find out if
18:04
Speaker 1: a gun has been fired? I think that you would
18:08
Speaker 1: have to be adjacent. Let me put it to you
18:11
Speaker 1: this way. Let's say, for instance, and here here's a
18:15
Speaker 1: good example. If you were standing adjacent to a let's
18:20
Speaker 1: say a set of curtains, for instance, and you had
18:23
Speaker 1: an idea that maybe the weapon was a discharged there,
18:26
Speaker 1: Maybe some circumstantial evidence came up, maybe some kind of
18:30
Speaker 1: spontaneous comment came up. Maybe if it's a discharged there
18:36
Speaker 1: and it has gotten into the fabric of the curtain,
18:38
Speaker 1: or maybe adjacent to a bed where there's a comforter
18:41
Speaker 1: and you knew where to look, maybe you could find
18:45
Speaker 1: some remnant. But if a weapon is just merely fired,
18:51
Speaker 1: it would be really hard to say, yeah, well a
18:54
Speaker 1: weapon has recently been fired here.
18:57
Speaker 2: You know, I'm just trying to think of what they
18:59
Speaker 2: would be saying to her, because a lot of us
19:02
Speaker 2: know of DNA. We know that this science of the
19:05
Speaker 2: forensic sciences have gotten to the point where you feel
19:08
Speaker 2: like if you were in an elevator and somebody, you know,
19:12
Speaker 2: somebody disturbed the ambiance, you know, you would be able
19:15
Speaker 2: to figure out who did it, and by the odor,
19:16
Speaker 2: I mean you would think these anymore. That's what I
19:19
Speaker 2: kind of believe when I watch television and movies, It's
19:21
Speaker 2: like they can figure everything out. They know I was there.
19:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are there are certain limitations scientifically, you know,
19:27
Speaker 1: but over a period of time, you know, and when
19:30
Speaker 1: I say period of time, I'm talking about in pretty
19:32
Speaker 1: short order. If you're just simply talking about a weapon
19:37
Speaker 1: being discharged, it would be very difficult to go back
19:41
Speaker 1: and say, yes, a weapon has been discharged in this room.
19:46
Speaker 1: You have to have some kind of soot or well
19:51
Speaker 1: powdered deposition on the person on clothing, that sort of
19:56
Speaker 1: thing to go back and say that, yes, a weapon
19:59
Speaker 1: was fired, Now, which what weapon was it? And that
20:03
Speaker 1: that's key because even you know, you can say that
20:06
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. You can say I work
20:07
Speaker 1: in a munitions factory or something, and you're still going
20:10
Speaker 1: to get some kind of residue on you perhaps, And
20:15
Speaker 1: so it's all relative to the circumstances in that immediate moment.
20:23
Speaker 1: But I could have sworn that at some point in
20:26
Speaker 1: tom this person actually stated that there was an accidental
20:32
Speaker 1: discharge of the weapon.
20:34
Speaker 2: Is that I took them to January eighteenth. They leaned
20:36
Speaker 2: on her, That's what I was saying. I was thinking
20:38
Speaker 2: of the things police could tell her. You know, Michelina,
20:41
Speaker 2: you know we have ways of finding out a gun
20:43
Speaker 2: was fired here. You know, we know all this. They
20:46
Speaker 2: knew they had a really good idea, but they didn't
20:48
Speaker 2: have any proof. They didn't have a body, they didn't
20:51
Speaker 2: have any evidence, they didn't have anything. Joe, So they
20:54
Speaker 2: bring her in, they sweat her, and MICHELINI go went
20:57
Speaker 2: on January eighteenth, th admits here's what happened. We were
21:04
Speaker 2: having an argument. Larry tried to involve himself. We told
21:08
Speaker 2: him to go back downstairs, get away, and so he
21:12
Speaker 2: knows nothing to tell you. And I was threatened, so
21:15
Speaker 2: I grabbed a gun. I wasn't gonna shoot him or anything.
21:18
Speaker 2: I was just doing it to protect myself and I
21:22
Speaker 2: accidentally the gun went off. I mean, it was just
21:25
Speaker 2: such an accident, Joe, I didn't mean to do it.
21:27
Speaker 2: I'm really sorry. Really well, where did you shoot him?
21:30
Speaker 2: Did you hit him in the face? Did you wing him?
21:32
Speaker 2: Did you you know, oh, I shot him in the back. Okay,
21:35
Speaker 2: you accidentally shot him in the back and he died
21:39
Speaker 2: one shot. Did you call nine one one if it
21:41
Speaker 2: was an accident? Did you pick up the phone and
21:43
Speaker 2: ask for help? Did you take him to the hunt?
21:45
Speaker 2: Is an accident? It was an accident. Why didn't you do?
21:49
Speaker 2: What did you do?
21:50
Speaker 1: Because why do you take measures you know, to try
21:53
Speaker 1: to say, because that goes to what do they call
21:56
Speaker 1: it a gross indifference or whatever it is, that callous indifference.
22:01
Speaker 1: I'm sorry where you just you don't care. You're just
22:05
Speaker 1: going to let them, you know, suffer, you know, lying there.
22:09
Speaker 1: But love I love it when people say things like, yeah,
22:13
Speaker 1: the weapon went off by accident. I love that. No.
22:19
Speaker 1: And and listen, there there are we're talking about forensics
22:22
Speaker 1: relative to this. You know, there are a couple of
22:24
Speaker 1: kind of tests that we in the lab not me,
22:28
Speaker 1: but my colleagues at work in fireums examination otherwise known
22:32
Speaker 1: as ballistics. In those sections of crime labs, they will
22:35
Speaker 1: actually do test on weapons, uh, to determine the plausibility
22:43
Speaker 1: of any particular weapon accidentally discharging. And do you mind
22:50
Speaker 1: if I break these down for you, because I'll tell you,
22:52
Speaker 1: I think people, I think people will be kind of
22:54
Speaker 1: interested in it. Uh. And it's it's kind of wild
22:57
Speaker 1: stuff when you because we hear these stories all the time,
23:02
Speaker 1: and most of the time you hear them associated with
23:06
Speaker 1: suicides because, as I've mentioned on many occasions, the suicides
23:12
Speaker 1: outpaced homicides. You know, so you're going to get more
23:16
Speaker 1: self inflicted gunshot wounds than you will gunshot wounds inflicted
23:21
Speaker 1: by another. And people will try and families many times say, well,
23:27
Speaker 1: he accidentally shot himself. Okay, well how does that happen. Well,
23:32
Speaker 1: there's a couple of different tests that are done. First off,
23:36
Speaker 1: there is a drop test that's actually done so if
23:40
Speaker 1: you have a weapon where it is charged, and charging
23:46
Speaker 1: a weapon can be safe. For instance, if you think
23:49
Speaker 1: about a handgun that has a semi automatic with a
23:53
Speaker 1: slide on it. Okay, so you see it on television
23:57
Speaker 1: where people racked the slide back and it's it's off safety,
24:02
Speaker 1: so it's red as dead. Remember, so if the safety
24:05
Speaker 1: is red, it means dead. So what they will do
24:08
Speaker 1: is they will take the question weapon and they will
24:11
Speaker 1: drop it from a height. If the weapon is charged, okay,
24:16
Speaker 1: and they will see if merely by dropping that weapon,
24:20
Speaker 1: if the firing pin, if the firing pin releases and engages, okay,
24:25
Speaker 1: And they'll do that.
24:26
Speaker 2: In the very time Alec Baldwin testing when he said
24:29
Speaker 2: the gun just fired, he didn't touch the trigger. They
24:31
Speaker 2: dropped that gun.
24:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they did a drop test on it, and
24:34
Speaker 1: what and so the chances of that happening, they're they're outliers.
24:42
Speaker 1: It just it doesn't happen. Now, Listen, every weapon, you
24:46
Speaker 1: can have a production line of weapons. Okay, let's just
24:49
Speaker 1: say ABC Gun Corporation makes a particular type of handgun
24:54
Speaker 1: platform and they do a run of, say two hundred
24:58
Speaker 1: weapons at one time. You can have I have one
25:00
Speaker 1: in there that might have a faulty trigger mechanism. You
25:04
Speaker 1: might confine it, okay, But nine times out of ten,
25:08
Speaker 1: this is just not going to happen. So with that said,
25:13
Speaker 1: With that said, the other thing that we that we
25:16
Speaker 1: think about traditionally also is trigger pull. So if everybody
25:21
Speaker 1: will think about your if you're left or right hand,
25:25
Speaker 1: to use your index finger to place it on. You
25:28
Speaker 1: put your finger pad the end of your index finger,
25:31
Speaker 1: your finger pad on the trigger itself. And how many
25:34
Speaker 1: times do you watch movies and whatnot, Particularly people in military,
25:39
Speaker 1: they'll talk about your handling the weapon unsafely if you
25:41
Speaker 1: have your finger inside the trigger housing. People that know
25:44
Speaker 1: how to handle weapons keep their finger outside the trigger housing.
25:47
Speaker 1: All right, So you're ready to shoot. And so what
25:51
Speaker 1: we do there is actually a weight test. This is
25:53
Speaker 1: pretty fascinating. You take the weapon and you charge it. Okay,
25:59
Speaker 1: Then you hang the weapon, all right, and you place
26:02
Speaker 1: weight on that weapon. And have you ever heard the
26:06
Speaker 1: term certain amounts of pounds of pressure that it takes
26:10
Speaker 1: to engage that trigger. Well, you add weight and that
26:13
Speaker 1: gives you the number of pounds okay, I won't take yeah,
26:18
Speaker 1: that takes to engage the trigger. And so you've heard
26:21
Speaker 1: the term say, for instance, a hair trigger, Well, hair
26:24
Speaker 1: trigger is not. I think people say that about individuals
26:28
Speaker 1: who who will say they're going to fire a weapon,
26:33
Speaker 1: and maybe they fired weapons and they'll say the person
26:36
Speaker 1: has a hair trigger. It's not the person that has
26:39
Speaker 1: a hair trigger in the literal sense, it is the weapon.
26:42
Speaker 1: So does it have a light touch? And weapons can
26:45
Speaker 1: be actually adjusted to that. You can adjust weapons so
26:49
Speaker 1: that it takes less pounds of pull in order to
26:52
Speaker 1: initiate that firing sequence. So the lighter the touch, the
26:56
Speaker 1: lighter the touch, the fewer pounds it takes to initiate
27:00
Speaker 1: that firing sequence. So they run through all of these tests.
27:03
Speaker 1: So in this particular case, if you have an individual
27:06
Speaker 1: who states, well, yeah, the weapon accidentally discharged, you've got
27:12
Speaker 1: three choices here. Okay, we can say she dropped the
27:17
Speaker 1: weapon and the weapon accidentally discharged. Okay, did that happen
27:22
Speaker 1: not that we know of. Okay, does the weapon have
27:25
Speaker 1: a hair trigger? Well, we would go back and we
27:27
Speaker 1: would test the number of pounds of pressure it would
27:30
Speaker 1: take being applied to the trigger to get that sequence going.
27:35
Speaker 1: Or did she accidentally put her finger inside the trigger guard? Okay,
27:42
Speaker 1: after the weapon is charged and then happen to pull
27:47
Speaker 1: the trigger initiate the firing sequence. Oh and by the way,
27:51
Speaker 1: score a lethal shot in his back. And that's dynamically,
27:57
Speaker 1: that's what they're looking at and kind of that's what
28:00
Speaker 1: they have to understand and see if that actually works.
28:04
Speaker 1: But as we know, in most cases like this, a
28:08
Speaker 1: case of a weapon accidentally discharging is a red herring
28:13
Speaker 1: at best. All right, Dave got a proposition for you.
28:31
Speaker 1: All Right, I'm game, be very careful before you make
28:38
Speaker 1: that statement, particularly in regardless to what I'm about to say.
28:42
Speaker 1: What would it I'll say? Okay, let me bear the
28:46
Speaker 1: burden here. Okay, I'm the perpetrator, all right, your old
28:51
Speaker 1: buddy Joe Scott, I'm the perpetrator. If I'm the perpetrator
28:58
Speaker 1: and you're aware that I have just quote unquote accidentally
29:01
Speaker 1: shot somebody. First off, two part question here might be
29:11
Speaker 1: a two part with multiple subsections. Hang on, you know me,
29:13
Speaker 1: I'm rather verbose. So okay, so let's say I accidentally
29:20
Speaker 1: shoot somebody. All right. First off, if you're in the
29:25
Speaker 1: same structure with me and you hear the report of
29:30
Speaker 1: a firearm going off and you rush upstairs, it's not
29:36
Speaker 1: just me, it's you, and we've got a person on
29:42
Speaker 1: the floor, either dead or dying. Why aren't you saying
29:47
Speaker 1: we got to call an ambulance and get somebody over here. Secondly,
29:53
Speaker 1: you've bought into the idea that maybe he's dead. I
29:57
Speaker 1: don't know, can't confirm it, or maybe us maybe it's
30:01
Speaker 1: an accident. We got to call the cops. He's dead.
30:06
Speaker 1: We can prove this. Or hey, Dave, will you go
30:12
Speaker 1: out to the shed and grab the axe, the hatchet,
30:20
Speaker 1: maybe a soft I need one, and help me take
30:24
Speaker 1: a part this person's body. Oh and by the bye,
30:31
Speaker 1: help me deposit it over a two county area. Are
30:33
Speaker 1: you a game? I think that's the question. What what?
30:37
Speaker 2: What? My response is, Okay, Joe, it's an accident. Let's
30:42
Speaker 2: just call the police and get them over here and
30:45
Speaker 2: let them deal with the poor old James here, because
30:49
Speaker 2: you know James is dead. He's he's your boyfriend. But anyway,
30:55
Speaker 2: the bottom line here is that you got a dead
30:57
Speaker 2: guy on the floor. You were the two people in
30:59
Speaker 2: the room, and I was downstairs because you wouldn't let
31:02
Speaker 2: me help in the argument. And now you want me
31:04
Speaker 2: to go and chop up the body with you. Okay, sure, no.
31:08
Speaker 1: I gotta This is the thing I've got to ask
31:10
Speaker 1: in regards to Mitchellina good ones and then Larry Murphy, right,
31:18
Speaker 1: how how committed of a friendship do you have to
31:22
Speaker 1: be in just go with me here. How committed of
31:26
Speaker 1: a friendship do you have to be in here to say, yeah, man,
31:30
Speaker 1: I'm all on board for this task. I will sit
31:34
Speaker 1: here and I will undertake this gruesome duty with you
31:39
Speaker 1: to make sure what you know, what kind of reward
31:42
Speaker 1: are you offering this man that he is literally going
31:46
Speaker 1: to run the risk of spending the rest of his
31:50
Speaker 1: life in prison? I mean, what do you have over
31:57
Speaker 1: his head? And also, are you in pair in some manner?
32:01
Speaker 1: Are you mentally impaired? Are you maybe uh drug addled
32:06
Speaker 1: in some way? I don't.
32:08
Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought that.
32:09
Speaker 1: Curious about that.
32:10
Speaker 2: We find all this out by going back a minute
32:14
Speaker 2: when we were talking about Micheline A. Goodwin sits down
32:16
Speaker 2: with the police. They've gotten no information really because there's
32:20
Speaker 2: only two people that know where James uh Narbacheck is Nabucheck.
32:29
Speaker 2: They are only two people and that is Micheline A.
32:31
Speaker 2: Goodwin and Larry Murphy. There are only two people that know.
32:34
Speaker 2: All the police know is the guy's missing. That's and
32:37
Speaker 2: he's an adult. The Michelina said he grabbed the company
32:41
Speaker 2: truck and went out of state. We were breaking up. So,
32:45
Speaker 2: based on that limited information that the police have, they
32:48
Speaker 2: really only can go after these two individuals, and they
32:51
Speaker 2: break Michelina first, and that's how they find out. It's
32:54
Speaker 2: not like the police were investigating and knew that his
32:57
Speaker 2: body was somewhere other than the house. Police didn't know that.
33:01
Speaker 2: They just knew they couldn't find him anywhere. And so
33:04
Speaker 2: it's Michelina Goodwin who actually then tells police, okay, we
33:10
Speaker 2: cut him up. Wait a minute, we you and mister Murphy,
33:17
Speaker 2: you chopped him up. Where's his body? And so she
33:22
Speaker 2: takes them to the body parts and that's where we know.
33:25
Speaker 2: They're strewn in remote areas of two different counties, which
33:29
Speaker 2: leads you to believe they chopped him up in small
33:32
Speaker 2: enough bags like doggie bags. I'm guessing. I'm not thinking
33:36
Speaker 2: that they didn't roll them up in a piece of carpet.
33:38
Speaker 2: And you know, do those they put him in bags?
33:40
Speaker 2: I guess, Joe, Yeah.
33:41
Speaker 1: Generally what will happen is that they will be placed
33:45
Speaker 1: into individual bags like this, or wrapped in in some
33:50
Speaker 1: type of sort of paper. And on a side here,
33:53
Speaker 1: I got to tell you this, many people might not
33:56
Speaker 1: be aware of this. Did you know that years ago
33:59
Speaker 1: back in a morgue, we didn't use body backs in
34:05
Speaker 1: many cases. I know the first morgue I ever worked in,
34:09
Speaker 1: we actually used butcher paper. You remember a butcher paper.
34:12
Speaker 1: It is brown and it was on a huge role
34:15
Speaker 1: and we would wrap bodies in it. And it's made
34:19
Speaker 1: in such a manner. I'm not a paper expert, but
34:22
Speaker 1: it's made in such a manner that it would absorb blood.
34:26
Speaker 1: And so I've had body parts that have been wrapped
34:29
Speaker 1: actually in newspaper, and I've had body parts that are
34:34
Speaker 1: wrapped in plastic over the course of my career, or
34:38
Speaker 1: I have seen them as a result of cases that
34:41
Speaker 1: I was assisting in our autopsy in where they're brought.
34:44
Speaker 1: You know, they're brought in one of my colleagues work
34:46
Speaker 1: case as the investigator, and so you you think about
34:50
Speaker 1: this and how does that conversation go in the vehicle
34:54
Speaker 1: as well? You know, so you're writing about all through
34:58
Speaker 1: the countryside a place that you're fromailiar with. Remember you're
35:03
Speaker 1: not going they're not driving down to the shore, you
35:08
Speaker 1: know in Maryland where you know in an environment, say
35:16
Speaker 1: if you go to a watery environment and up there,
35:19
Speaker 1: what are they really known for in Maryland and grotesque here.
35:26
Speaker 1: But you've got a lot of wetlands. But you've also
35:28
Speaker 1: got blue crabs. We have them in South Louisiana. Guess
35:31
Speaker 1: what they love. They're scavengers. And so you're going to
35:35
Speaker 1: deposit body parts all about the place like this, and
35:39
Speaker 1: you're riding around trying to make this decision. Well, gee,
35:43
Speaker 1: that looks like a good spot. Let's drive on a
35:46
Speaker 1: little further. That looks like a good spot. And how
35:49
Speaker 1: long would this take? How long would it take? Because
35:53
Speaker 1: you know, this victim is not a small man. He's
35:57
Speaker 1: not a small man. And so once you get passed
36:00
Speaker 1: and I go back to to this case involving Melissa Woffenberger,
36:09
Speaker 1: the you know, they still don't have her torso. Torso
36:14
Speaker 1: is the most difficult element of the body to get
36:18
Speaker 1: rid of, and particularly if you're trying to dissect it out.
36:24
Speaker 1: If I don't know if folks know this, did you
36:26
Speaker 1: know that your body, particularly torso, is broken down into quadrants.
36:30
Speaker 1: So when you're you have quadrants that are generally on
36:36
Speaker 1: the front of your body, and if you take an
36:37
Speaker 1: anatomy clash, you know you look at say the top
36:40
Speaker 1: left quadrant, top right quadrant, bottom right quadrant, bottom left quadrant,
36:45
Speaker 1: and you can also break that down abdominantly, so you
36:49
Speaker 1: have to factor that into the equation as well as
36:52
Speaker 1: how are you going to essentially parse the body up?
36:58
Speaker 1: And it becomes a g when undertaking where they did,
37:02
Speaker 1: this would have been super saturated with blood.
37:08
Speaker 2: Okay, let me stop you there, because that's what I
37:10
Speaker 2: had to ask Joe. We have this, We have the
37:14
Speaker 2: police with no information until they sit down with Mischelina
37:17
Speaker 2: Goodwin and she admits to what they've done. They were
37:20
Speaker 2: not you know, the police are not allowed to just
37:23
Speaker 2: come in your house on a fishing expedition, and there's
37:26
Speaker 2: a real good reason for that, okay, But in this case,
37:30
Speaker 2: they could not come up with a good reason to
37:32
Speaker 2: get a search warrant to go into that house because
37:36
Speaker 2: they obviously would have been able to find blood based
37:39
Speaker 2: on where she said he was shot.
37:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, and hopefully Nancy doesn't get mad at me about this,
37:46
Speaker 1: and you know she calls me up saying, Joe, Scott,
37:49
Speaker 1: just Scott. But do you know constitutionally, the Supreme Court
37:55
Speaker 1: has ruled there is no exception, there is no exception
38:02
Speaker 1: to your right's privacy even when it comes to homicide investigation.
38:07
Speaker 1: The only time okay, this is how this would work.
38:11
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought this up. So the only time that, say,
38:15
Speaker 1: for instance, you can't go searching in what to refer
38:18
Speaker 1: to as hidden places. You have to have a specific
38:20
Speaker 1: search warrant. So if a police officer walks into a
38:24
Speaker 1: house to ascertain the safety, almost like a welfare check,
38:28
Speaker 1: like you're walking into a house, if they see blood, say,
38:33
Speaker 1: seeping out from beneath the bottom of a closet, they
38:37
Speaker 1: can open that door for the purposes of seeing if
38:41
Speaker 1: anyone is in there they need help, And if they
38:44
Speaker 1: find a dead body, they still cannot They still cannot
38:49
Speaker 1: begin to work the scene. They have to back out
38:51
Speaker 1: of the house after it's secured and made safe and
38:55
Speaker 1: make sure no one else is you know, in harm's way,
39:00
Speaker 1: search one, and then go back in and process the scene.
39:02
Speaker 2: Okay, because if they start searching right then.
39:05
Speaker 1: It's all it's all thrown out. Yeah, it's you have
39:07
Speaker 1: to have a good And there's multiple court cases that
39:11
Speaker 1: go to this point, and I could rattle them off.
39:14
Speaker 1: I actually teach them at the police cademy every year
39:18
Speaker 1: about this. Particularly. There's really no exceptions.
39:21
Speaker 2: Whenever I get into an argument with somebody about this
39:23
Speaker 2: and I'm was like, look, the reason the law is there.
39:26
Speaker 2: What if there's a police officer that doesn't like Dave
39:33
Speaker 2: mac yep and he just decides I don't like what
39:37
Speaker 2: he says on the show I'm and he comes into
39:40
Speaker 2: my house finding a reason to arrest me. They can't
39:44
Speaker 2: do that. That's why it's not a reasonable thing. You
39:47
Speaker 2: have to go before a judge. You have to write
39:49
Speaker 2: down probable cause, what do you think you're going to find?
39:52
Speaker 2: Where do you think you're going to find it? Where
39:53
Speaker 2: you're going to look? The judge reads all that and
39:56
Speaker 2: based on the evidence, that's where they say, Okay, go ahead,
39:59
Speaker 2: off are going there and get what you got to get.
40:02
Speaker 2: But in this case, yeah, that's what I'm saying, they
40:04
Speaker 2: didn't have it. They could not until Michelini Goodwin sat
40:08
Speaker 2: down with Police Joe. They couldn't go in there apparently
40:11
Speaker 2: because they didn't know. They had assumptions. That was about
40:15
Speaker 2: all they had for a month.
40:17
Speaker 1: Well, what's fascinating about this case, Dave, is that does
40:22
Speaker 1: that rule apply to the body parts? Where she is
40:26
Speaker 1: taking you out to a location and let's just say
40:29
Speaker 1: they they threw one of the elements of the body
40:33
Speaker 1: into the ditch. Okay, immediately adjason. It's in a public area,
40:38
Speaker 1: it's in plane view, which is there's actually a plane
40:41
Speaker 1: view doctrine. They're not going into someone's house. You've got
40:46
Speaker 1: an alleged perpetrator who's confessing to this. They said, Yeah,
40:49
Speaker 1: that's the foot right there, that's the hand right there.
40:53
Speaker 1: You know, that's the head right there. Do they need
40:56
Speaker 1: a warrant to collect that? Probably not. They're going to
40:59
Speaker 1: process and just to be safe, they might get a
41:01
Speaker 1: warrant at that point in time. But if you're talking
41:04
Speaker 1: to like a physical structure where the dismemberment actually took place,
41:09
Speaker 1: then that that's a completely different kettle of fish because
41:14
Speaker 1: you have you have an expectation of privacy within your
41:19
Speaker 1: own home. So they would if they're developing this information
41:23
Speaker 1: and her confession would be enough to develop a warrant
41:26
Speaker 1: off of and they could go back and process the scene.
41:29
Speaker 1: They're going to be looking for remnants of blood, maybe
41:33
Speaker 1: impact areas that keep using the term which is horrible
41:36
Speaker 1: chopping shopping in this case before Joe ye know and
41:39
Speaker 1: it's it's it's stated over and over that. If you're
41:42
Speaker 1: facilitating chopping up a body per se, are there going
41:47
Speaker 1: to be underlying strike marks, Say, if you're doing it
41:49
Speaker 1: on a floor, whether it's a wooden floor, stone floor,
41:52
Speaker 1: vinyl floor, whatever, is there associated blood? Blood evidence is
41:57
Speaker 1: left behind with this as well, and that's certainly something
41:59
Speaker 1: to consu or in this particular.
42:01
Speaker 2: Case, you know, we had the case out in California,
42:03
Speaker 2: have the agent son, you know, the super powerful agent
42:07
Speaker 2: guy whose son is accused of killing his wife and
42:11
Speaker 2: dumping her torso in the trash dumpster, and that you know,
42:15
Speaker 2: he had some he had hired some workers to take
42:17
Speaker 2: these bags away and they like they opened it up
42:21
Speaker 2: and like there's body parts and he's lots a mannequin.
42:23
Speaker 2: It's Halloween. In this case, the police get the information
42:28
Speaker 2: from Michelini goodwhen she tells them we took care of this.
42:32
Speaker 2: Now they go to these different areas and get the bag.
42:36
Speaker 2: She leads them to these remote areas. Yes, when because
42:40
Speaker 2: when we look at a map and you see a line,
42:42
Speaker 2: here's x Y's here's Charles County, here's Mabel County, they
42:49
Speaker 2: mean something because they're different jurisdictions. For police oftentimes do
42:53
Speaker 2: you have to like go out there and you know,
42:55
Speaker 2: bring out the compass and you know, a road crew
42:58
Speaker 2: to determine is this in the right this county or not?
43:01
Speaker 2: I mean if it crosses over into a different county,
43:03
Speaker 2: I got a bag, I got a foot over here,
43:05
Speaker 2: and I've got an arm over here in a different county.
43:08
Speaker 2: Do I have to call the police in all these
43:10
Speaker 2: different areas?
43:11
Speaker 1: Well? It's advisable, and sheriffs were out there. However, do
43:14
Speaker 1: you know who actually processes scene? The Maryland State Police. Okay,
43:18
Speaker 1: so they have state they have statewide jurisdiction. Okay, But
43:21
Speaker 1: to your point, and I think this is kind of fascinating,
43:25
Speaker 1: what they would do in a case like this is
43:28
Speaker 1: that they're going to put markers down with every bit
43:33
Speaker 1: of evidence. It's particularly in the deposition areas, and they're
43:39
Speaker 1: going to geographically map this area. And it's you know,
43:42
Speaker 1: it's quite striking. You know. I think I think any
43:45
Speaker 1: of us can identify with this if you're just say
43:48
Speaker 1: you're looking, I don't know. I think I hate to
43:50
Speaker 1: reduce it down to this, but say you're trying to
43:53
Speaker 1: buy a new home and you go to one of
43:55
Speaker 1: these things like Zillow, or one of these things, and
43:57
Speaker 1: you're looking, well, what area of this particular geographic location
44:02
Speaker 1: our most houses selling in and you look for that
44:05
Speaker 1: concentrated area. Take that and apply it to deposition of
44:10
Speaker 1: body parts, or if you're looking at serial killer, which
44:14
Speaker 1: this has been done for a long time. Wow, you
44:16
Speaker 1: look at where bodies have been deposited all of the place,
44:19
Speaker 1: and people try to find these patterns and things, and
44:22
Speaker 1: sometimes they marry up with common thoroughfares that a suspect
44:26
Speaker 1: might take to go do things, say if you're going
44:29
Speaker 1: grocery shopping, or if the person is dealing drugs, for instance,
44:33
Speaker 1: areas that you would might have some kind of peripheral
44:36
Speaker 1: knowledge of. But you know, Dave, it's this case is
44:41
Speaker 1: certainly different in the fact that you've got two perpetrators
44:44
Speaker 1: in this case and they essentially both roll over. What
44:51
Speaker 1: exactly was Larry Murphy his part to this? Did he
44:58
Speaker 1: wind up being charged?
45:00
Speaker 2: He was charged, Joe. He was charged with first degree murder,
45:03
Speaker 2: second degree murder, burial or disposal of a body in
45:07
Speaker 2: an authorized place, and accessory after the fact, murder. And
45:12
Speaker 2: one thing that came out of all of this, and
45:14
Speaker 2: I'm still a little stunned the mess, just that they
45:19
Speaker 2: had it left behind me. I know they tried to
45:21
Speaker 2: clean it up to cover their tracks, but Joe, it
45:24
Speaker 2: had to just have been horrible. Is there any way
45:28
Speaker 2: to get yes it clean after that?
45:30
Speaker 1: You can't. You can't get rid of it. In totality.
45:34
Speaker 1: You can't make it disappear, no matter how much scrubbing
45:43
Speaker 1: you do, no matter how much raking of dirt, no
45:49
Speaker 1: matter how much painting you do, perhaps or laying down
45:52
Speaker 1: of carpet. But I do know this, I do know this.
46:01
Speaker 1: Both Goodwin and Murphy have, at least for the time being,
46:09
Speaker 1: disappeared from freedom. They're now incarcerated Mitchellina Goodwin was actually
46:18
Speaker 1: charged and convicted and is now currently serving sixty one
46:24
Speaker 1: years in the Maryland State Penitentiary. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,
46:31
Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks here.