Latest / Real Money with Lisa Chastain / Exposing Financial Secrets in Divorce with Tracy Coenen

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Exposing Financial Secrets in Divorce with Tracy Coenen · Real Money with Lisa Chastain

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Hey everyone, Lisa Chastain here with real money.
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I'm so grateful that you're deciding to join us.
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However, you're deciding to join us whether you're on YouTube,
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whether this is the podcast version of this video.
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Episode, thank you for being here.
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Thank you for subscribing. Thank you for being a part of
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the conversation. My guest Tracy is awesome.
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I think you're really going to love this conversation.
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We're going to talk about a salacious topic.
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Yes, I'm really, really excited for this conversation.
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Would you like to introduce yourself first?
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Please, can you? Of course I can.
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Okay, I'm a forensic accountant, so I find money.
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A lot of what I do is on the corporate side executive
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stealing money, manipulating financial statements, but I also
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do personal matters like divorce where I am trying to help people
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find the money. So I went to college to get a
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criminology degree and I wanted to be a prison Warden, but my
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sophomore year. Well that's really cool.
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It's always unexpected. Yes.
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My sophomore year. I took a class called Financial
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crime investigation And I was hooked.
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So I started taking accounting and economics classes set for
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the CPA exam and went into this career.
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Starting off as a traditional financial statement auditor,
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which was super important because it gave me the
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opportunity to see what the numbers are supposed to look
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like and how accounting works in the real world because the
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textbook versus the real world is completely different.
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I mean, I went from you know getting all A's in my accounting
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classes and and understanding it all to getting into the real
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world. And auditing financial
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statements and feeling like, I don't know.
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A thing about accounting when, when you get to the real world
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and it's not a normal like a problem that always has a
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correct answer. Yeah.
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And you're trying to apply what you've learned.
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It was a really a shell shock to me.
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Yeah. So I did that.
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And then I did that for a couple years and then went into
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forensic accounting and so I've been doing forensic accounting
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for more than 25 years now. So my listeners are probably
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going. Oh my God, there is a thing,
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called forensic accounting of course.
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And what is that? What we're Lean into that
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conversation and you're really helping your helping women
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primarily in such an important way.
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And for most of my listeners, I would say in a very intimidating
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way, right? Yeah.
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You know, no matter how far you think we've come with equality
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and women's rights? The fact of the matter is that,
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in the vast majority of marriages men are still in
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charge of the money. They are more often the primary
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Breadwinners and so when divorce This comes along women are
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finding themselves, very disempowered and they are
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feeling out of control. Many of them.
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Do not know what's been happening with their money.
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They feel ashamed because they weren't keeping track of the
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money, I am here to help remove some of that shame.
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I hope and help them figure out how they can understand their
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money and get a better Financial settlement for them in the
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divorce. It's a scary topic.
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But I like to say that this can be a really positive
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conversation because there is So much we can do to help women
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have better divorces financially.
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I agree. I agree.
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I'm on that mission with you and even just having this
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conversation. My belief is that there's
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someone listening to this. And they're going to be able to
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take a deep breath, right? And go.
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There's hope for me. I can figure this out.
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I will say before I was in the finance industry.
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I was super intimidated by mortgage lenders, CPAs
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bookkeepers, anybody, who knew more about money than me,
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because it feels very over my head.
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Or at that time, it did and it took me years to get along with
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the lingo of finance and in particular clients come to me
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and they're terrified if I'd of CPAs in the IRS.
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So it's really cool that you're doing this work to say, hey
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let's help you find the money because that's actually you're
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like one of the first people that I've ever met in this
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industry. Like reaching out saying, let me
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show you what I know and how to use my knowledge to dig in
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because it's very it is, it's very I think too.
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Intimidating is the word, what would you order?
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What are the conversations you're having with your clients
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and with women about those Steps.
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I know you wrote a book about it which will, you know, I love for
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you to share about your book but what are those first steps?
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Well, they're very overwhelmed right?
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Yes. How to describe it is
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overwhelmed with all of it and for the record, I'm scared of
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the IRS to I. Thank you for sharing that
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they're scary, right? Yeah.
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Right. You know, not trusting
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themselves around. The money is very scary.
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And yes, I broke it down into steps because I felt like if we
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approach it methodically, that's probably the easiest way.
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But as I've been talking to more and more women about the divorce
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money guide over the last year, you know I'm finding that even
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talking about steps can sometimes feel overwhelming.
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I was saying there's ten steps. Oh my God 10 steps.
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It sounds like a lot and it's really it's not it's bite-sized
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pieces but what I try don't take them through is is understanding
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that financial piece of the divorce and what's going to
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happen so that they're not surprised because what I'm
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having them tell me is that their attorneys really aren't
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prepping them well for what's coming down the pike on the
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money there, right? So they don't know, there's
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going to be this form, you have to fill out call the financial
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disclosure form and you're going to have together all sorts of
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financial documents and it's annoying and it's burdensome,
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but it's part of every divorce. And then what's going to happen
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is if your husband is like lots and lots of Divorce, is, he's
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going to obstruct the process. He's not going to turn over his
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documents. And then your attorney is going
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to say, well, I can write a letter but it's going to cost
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you money. I at least want women to be
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prepared for what's going to happen.
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So I walk them through here are the things that are going to
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happen, you might have to sit for something called a
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deposition where your that's a Solutions, right?
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Yeah, it can be scary. You're sitting there with an
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attorney across the table from you being asked questions about
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your life about your finances, about all sorts of personal
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things. Sometimes the attorneys are
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there. Are to gather information and
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their aboveboard about it and there are decent about it even
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though they're on the other side.
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And there are times where that attorney is there to embarrass
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you and upset you. So I want them to just
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understand that this is what can happen because I feel like if
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you're prepared that this attorney might be wanting to
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embarrass you and upset, you, it'll be easier to go through
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the process. So that's sort of the first part
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about it is setting setting the expectations about what's going
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to happen in divorce. Then it's about here, the
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financial documents. You're going to need.
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Here's how you're going to get them.
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And here's what you're going to do with them, once you have them
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and what you're going to do with them is you're not going to be a
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forensic accountant, I know. Sometimes like to say this is
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do-it-yourself forensic accounting, but then I realized
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that, that sort of over cells because that isn't even what it
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is. Can we can we talk about what
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forensic accounting is? Yeah.
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First we'll come back to the documents because probably some
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blisters is checked out. Probably like I don't want your
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what too much. And then their heart started
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beating fast and they're like, okay I'll come back to this.
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So what is forensic accounting really?
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Simply financial fraud investigation, okay so I find
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money. So when I was looking for title
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for a book, find me the money because that is really what I
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do. I am tracing money so if you
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want to get technical about it, I take all sorts of bank
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statements. Credit card statements
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investment account statements. And I go line by line through
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the transactions and figure out where the money has been going,
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what you've been spending. On your normal stuff, and
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mortgage or car, payment, your groceries.
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All that is finding, well, you don't need me an expert to look
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at that, but those transactions are there and then I'm looking
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for the transactions that are maybe questionable.
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Here's a transfer to an account, you never knew existed.
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Mhm, here are some large cash withdrawals out of your bank
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account that you didn't know. Ever happened here is a paycheck
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deposit that seems awfully smaller than your normal deposit
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for page. Wow, for a woman who doesn't
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know her money or isn't used to looking through those things.
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Those are some really good examples of what you can look
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for. That's out of the ordinary,
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right? How long, or how far back do you
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have to look to know that it's out of the ordinary?
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I always recommend going back three to five years because you
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don't know how how far a situation could have been going,
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but I know that sounds like a lot.
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So I say let's just With the year.
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Let's just go with the last year and I like a year because it
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kind of gives you a full picture of the seasons.
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You know, maybe you spend more money in summer because their
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vacations or, you know, you get the holiday season with
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gift-giving in there, things like that.
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So one year is sort of where I start with it all and you know,
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I tell people, even if you haven't been involved with your
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family, you know your family's habits.
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So if you're looking through 12 months worth of So you're just
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going line by line on that bank statements and you see something
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like, here's a charge at Target, okay?
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At first blush, we got a Target. That's fine.
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But then you see that Target Target is at one in a town.
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That's an hour away from you. That's weird, right?
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Yeah. Or could be, and it may be you
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seen, you think? Oh, that was on her way to a
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vacation, right? But in other families it's like
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wait a second. We would never have shopped at
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that Target. This is something I need to ask
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questions about right or you would know if there is Charge at
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a hotel across town, you would know, that's not ordinary.
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So I'm going to take this way out of context for the benefit
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of The Listener, and we'll bring it back to divorce, but like,
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your friend accounting, would be that kind of person.
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I'm guessing because I've seen shows, right?
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Not that I've done it myself, but we're, they're doing the
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work to just figure out like a murder mystery.
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Hmm, and do forensic accountants, you know, you guess
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you would Loop them in to say, you know, let's look at how this
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money is being spent where it's going.
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Where this person sent me, that's what it sounds like to
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me, right? Yeah, absolutely.
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So my work, you know there are a lot of different cases that I
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use it. That my work is used for like
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insurance cases where there is potentially fraud and they want
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to find out what has been happening with the money or
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companies are fighting over contracts, going bad and someone
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lost money and I'm coming. And trying to figure out was
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money, lost how much was lost and why was it lost?
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So there are a lot of different applications for forensic.
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Accounting. But at the end of the day, it's
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all about tracing money and figuring out where it went.
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Putting together a puzzle. I went really dark with the
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murder scene. Yeah.
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But when you say forensic that is actually sounds like you're
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right. Okay cool.
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And so you found a niche in working with divorce women for
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you. What's the passion around
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working with women who are go? Is it women?
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Who are going through divorce specifically, what's your
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passion around that? It is helping them get a fair
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settlement. They can't get a fair settlement
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if they don't know all the facts about the money.
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I see husband's obstructing the process not turning over
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financial information, hiding information and people don't
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typically hide information unless there's something to hide
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right. Yeah, you know he can say I
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don't want you to see those statements just because it's
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probably not just because there's probably something on
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those statements. He doesn't want you to see ya
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and so, after Decades of seeing women, be taken advantage of be
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fooled in the divorce process. You know.
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I said, I need to do more, I need to do more than I can do
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one-on-one in a Consulting capacity.
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You have such a different and unique, such a unique
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perspective on money. I mean, I talked to accountants
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and bookkeepers all day long, but to do the forensic work is
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so is so cool. I have a friend who Has.
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But her husband was cheating on her and this is the work through
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the numbers. They tell a story and we're
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telling I'm telling my clients all day long like your numbers
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tell a story of your life and this is just one aspect.
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Where if you really need, you need to understand where the
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money is going. So that not only can you maybe
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discover whether or not someone's cheating on you or
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having an affair or married to another woman, right?
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Because you have you seen that before?
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Yeah. He's doing might think it's like
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the secret family. I keep forgetting.
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My mic isn't on keep like leaning into it.
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It's so funny. I know just laughing at myself.
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I know it was I saying, I don't know.
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I was thinking about whether my lip gloss was okay or not.
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Not gonna lie, secret money. Yeah, so yeah, yeah.
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So you want to, you want to be able to kind of see what
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patterns are off or where if it's hap.
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If that transactions happening in.
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Other town but also if money is being sent to a different
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account that you don't know of right?
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That would be a clue in to what's what's possibly going on?
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Well let's back up. Even further for some people who
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are getting divorced, there isn't even a suspicion of fraud
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but there is a need to know what's been going on with the
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money. How can you plan for your
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financial life after your divorce?
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If you don't know what it costs to live.
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So looking at those bank statements will help you
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understand? Exactly.
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See how much our mortgage is, how much the car payment is?
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How much have you been spending on groceries?
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So, just Gathering the facts about what's been going on with
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the money is also super important so important.
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Okay, so let's talk about the next step.
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So financial statements, we were on financial statements, once
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you have the information, what do you do with it?
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So I know is a part of now are we talked?
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Are you talking to specifically women who are like in the
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thralls of divorce who are already?
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You've decided you're going to have it, you're going to get a
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divorce, you're in the middle of it, trying to figure out the
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right information, right? So for that is that who were
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talking about for, you know, okay.
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We could also be talking to people who are considering
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divorce and I say people because the divorce money guide is for
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men. All women, I speak to women
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because that is who needs my product and my services.
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That's who I primarily work with.
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And so I say husbands, and so, for all the guys out there don't
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be upset if you're listening women lying cheat to.
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Yeah, they hide money to. I just happen to have a
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particular focus on women. So what was the question is this
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for women who are like in the middle of divorce and it's not
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really it's for anyone who is thinking about divorce or
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wanting to clue in and figure out where the money is going,
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really? So some people are considering
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divorce and there are some issues surrounding trust and one
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of those issues might involve money and so they might want to
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really understand. Is there anything funny going on
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with the money as they are in that decision-making process?
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Yes. Yeah.
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So then what's the next step? You figure out all the things
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and what do you do with it? So you find transactions that
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are bad, you put them on a list, you find transactions that
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you're not sure about you put those on the list.
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You essentially end up with two lists of transactions and you
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end up going to your attorney with them so that they can be
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presented to the divorce court because you may be asking for
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half of that money back. So let's say you found that your
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husband spent thirty thousand Hours on an affair partner, half
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of that money was yours. You're entitled to get that
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back, the courts. Not going to give it back to
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you, unless you have proof. And so all of those transactions
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are the proof. I've never thought of it that
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way. I mean I went through my own
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divorce in 2017 but I was the one that managed all the money.
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I'm really glad he didn't have a forensic accountant because I
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was moving stuff, right? Like I wanted to keep mine or
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whatever I did say that live on air but it's long over, it's
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okay. I wasn't hiding money but still
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like I would have been really uncomfortable.
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Comfortable with someone like trying to get in there and
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figure out what was going on. I'm sure you see a lot of people
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who are super resistant to the process.
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Absolutely. So you have a you have a list of
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what seems right what doesn't what you know, what seems right,
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what doesn't seem right? And then I would have never
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thought of that either. Like I know like in a community
16:28
property environment that half and half but once the money
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spent half of it, still yours if you find out that there's fraud,
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right? And so, what we do is we hope
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that there are Other assets that you're splitting in the divorce,
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maybe you're splitting a retirement account or some other
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investment account or a house and if you're owed money back
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from improper spending. Yeah, hopefully, you can get it
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in that property division the other way that we use those
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transactions is on that list of bad transactions.
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You might have transfers to accounts, you never knew about.
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And so, the attorney is then going to be sending subpoenas to
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those Banks to get those account records that we can see what's
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in that account. So, not only do we want to try
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to get money, Back, if it was spent inappropriately but we
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also want to be doing things that help us discover.
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If there are other accounts other assets that we should be
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asking for half of right. That sounds really really cool.
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What do you love about the work that you do all of it all of it?
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Yeah. Like you're really good at it.
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Did you? Wait did you went in
17:30
criminology? You were going to be a warden
17:33
person, Ward, a prison warden. So to make the shift to
17:36
accounting you fell in love with it.
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I'm okay. I'm going to backtrack to prison
17:42
Warden. What's that about?
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That's about. I am fascinated with the
17:47
criminal justice system. Yeah, the social aspects of it.
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Do we rehabilitate criminals or do we?
17:54
Not is imprisonment for the punishment or is it for the
17:59
protection of society or something else?
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And so what I was looking at was I felt like I could be a really
18:07
great source for positive change their that, you know, I'm the
18:11
kind of person who could help the prisoners have a better
18:15
experience and come out of prison.
18:16
Better people that before I could help victims feel like the
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process was more effective. I could help the employees of
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the prison system, have a better experience in their careers.
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I just felt like there is so much that I had to offer their
18:30
in a very young and inexperienced way.
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I had those feelings. Um, and so that's what I wanted
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to do and then the counting. Yes.
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But, you know, it still involves criminal justice because I'm
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doing these fraud cases and some of the cases that I do involve
18:48
people going to prison, like one of the types of cases that I do
18:51
is criminal defense work. So like right now I have a
18:54
client who is accused of running a massive Ponzi scheme and he
18:59
has federal charges against him. He's most likely going to go to
19:01
prison for a period of time and my work is aimed at Checking the
19:06
government's numbers and making sure that he's held responsible
19:10
for the right amount of frog. The right amount of fraud.
19:14
Yes, interesting is there a wrong amount of fraud?
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Well, what typically happens when someone's being charged
19:20
with crimes like this, the government throws, everything in
19:22
the kitchen sink into it and they try to get these numbers as
19:26
big as possible to create a certain negotiating position.
19:29
Sorry, if you work for the federal government, don't be
19:31
upset. We kind of all know.
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This is how it goes. Like, like tax fraud is A great
19:36
example of that they will just pile on and say, you know, you
19:40
have nads and millions of dollars in unpaid taxes.
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And then we start to say well what was your methodology can
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you prove this number? Let's let's dig into this.
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And then all of a sudden the numbers start coming down as we
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start getting back to reality. And I'm, you know, there are a
19:53
lot of accounts who don't want to do criminal defense work
19:55
because they think it's dirty and my feeling is that
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Everyone's entitled to a defense and if someone's going to get
20:01
punished, they should get punished based upon the crimes
20:05
that have been proven. Yeah.
20:06
Yeah, and in divorce it's the same thing, same concept, let's
20:10
just be fair, but let's make sure that you have the tools
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and, you know how to dig in and get the gift be information to
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be able to then make sure that the punishment or whatever that
20:20
is right. But the verdict that the
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decision at the end of the day is fair and right?
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And there's a lot of women who just walk away, oh right?
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Because it is difficult to fight.
20:32
They feel outgunned, they have husbands who Try to bleed them
20:37
dry during the process. If I can, if I can make her.
20:40
Wait and wait and wait, she'll just give up and it happens a
20:43
lot. Absolutely, yeah.
20:46
So I always talk to my clients about.
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We don't want to think about settling this case, until we
20:51
have all the information. And there will come a point in
20:54
time in this process where we will decide.
20:57
It's time to stop fighting that. Maybe if we kept fighting, there
21:00
would be a few thousand more dollars that you could get or
21:02
something like that. But there will come a point
21:04
where the emotional cost of continuing.
21:06
Fight the lawyer cost of continuing the fight isn't worth
21:09
it but it's not. It's not now.
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We don't give up now until we have all the facts.
21:13
Yeah. All the facts.
21:15
Okay. So look back a year.
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I'm sure and there's probably so many great nuggets in your book.
21:19
I can't wait to read it and share it with my clients but you
21:22
got to you got to get the facts. You've got to pull those
21:24
together at least a year for a woman in particular for a woman
21:28
in my world. Who isn't she doesn't know her
21:31
money whether or not she's the actual financial decision maker
21:34
or not, does it matter she, Just doesn't really know her money.
21:38
How long does she need? Like?
21:40
What is the you know, does it take?
21:42
I guess it would just depend but the take you a month to work
21:46
through this stuff, a couple of months to work through this
21:48
stuff. How long would someone need?
21:50
I feel like you should give yourself a month together.
21:54
All the documents you need because there's going to be a
21:56
process to that. And then I think give yourself
21:58
another month to look through the stuff because you're
22:00
probably not going to sit down and go through it.
22:02
All in one shot, it's going to be something where, you know, I
22:06
kind of I recommend set aside some time on a weekend on a
22:09
morning to sit down with a cup of coffee for a few hours and go
22:14
through it and make consistent progress with it that way.
22:17
And so, I think a month would be fair and it's okay.
22:19
If there's some f-bombs in there, right?
22:21
Like if you can get it, absolutely, is, you don't know
22:25
what? You don't know until you get
22:26
started and I can imagine for some women, it's like the
22:29
experience of may be kicking yourself.
22:31
Like I didn't write, I didn't know this and then like you're
22:35
pissed but it's a, you've got a, you've got to be willing to do
22:38
it right? And get in there.
22:40
So it is really hard when you start and heavy and yeah,
22:44
moralizing. But what I've seen is, as they
22:47
go through, start going through these statements and finding
22:49
more and more things, you know, you get pissed and then you're
22:53
like, okay I'm really glad I'm doing this like look at what I'm
22:56
finding and then you start feeling like you're taking back
22:59
some control and that, you know, going Through that range of
23:03
emotions. I find is really important.
23:05
I think it's important to work through it because if you don't,
23:07
if you don't have the courage to go through it, you'll never
23:10
know. And I would, I would rather set
23:14
someone up to say, this is going to be painful at the front end
23:18
and you're going to be so glad that you went through this
23:20
process versus being on the other side of it.
23:22
And never knowing, I can't tell you how many women I've talked
23:26
to, who said, I settled my divorce without all the
23:30
information. And now I wonder what Was there
23:32
that I didn't know about? I was just on a pie was just
23:35
interviewing someone else for the podcast and she said that
23:38
she had a client go through a divorce and they settled for two
23:42
and a half million dollars and then after everything was
23:44
settled and closed out, there was another 6 million dollars on
23:47
the table that she didn't know about.
23:50
Wow. Right.
23:51
And two and a half million dollars is a lot of money,
23:54
right? Eight and a half million dollars
23:56
is a lot more, right? And that wow.
23:59
And so that's not speaking to everyone but you know No, to
24:02
someone ten thousand dollars would make a big difference.
24:06
We are talking about, life-changing settlements in
24:09
these divorces. And where I see this impacting
24:12
people most is with the home and the retirement funds.
24:17
I see women giving up claim to retirement funds, if they can
24:21
keep the family home which is something that we need to talk
24:26
about and bring visibility to but also giving up retirement
24:30
funds just because they don't want.
24:32
Fight and this impacts them for years to come.
24:36
And and may impact whether or not, they can never retire from
24:40
whatever their career s true, let's talk about the family
24:43
home. It's like heart-wrenching for
24:46
me. That was the one thing that I
24:48
did not want to give up in my divorce.
24:51
I love my home. We'd been there for years and
24:55
looking at the numbers and talking through the upkeep of
24:58
the home, and all of the things I was just like, I just don't
25:02
Don't feel like it's the right thing to do.
25:05
But I've seen clients fight over the family home and then on the
25:09
other side of it not being able to keep it up, take care of it.
25:14
What would you say to women who are in that struggle right now,
25:17
about whether or not to fight for the home.
25:20
It is certainly a big emotional attachment and there is a lot of
25:26
thinking that I want to keep the home for the kids because that's
25:29
the one thing that can stay. Stable for them.
25:34
It's the one thing that they know I think the truth is that
25:38
for kids they're pretty resilient and that if given the
25:42
choice to see Mom struggle really hard to make ends meet
25:46
and never be able to take us on a vacation or take us for ice
25:50
cream. Or if it was, hey, we're going
25:54
to start over in a new smaller home.
25:55
But Mom is not as stressed and do things.
25:58
I think the kids would choose the new home.
26:00
I think so too. It's a time.
26:02
Yes, there is a lot of upheaval for the kids, but keep trying to
26:06
keep the home for the kids. When you really can't afford, it
26:09
is a really bad long-term decision.
26:12
But I recognize that there are people listening right now her
26:15
saying it's easy for you to say that you're not the one going
26:17
through this right now. So you're not the one dealing
26:19
with the kids crying. You're not the one dealing with
26:22
me thinking, oh my god, I've been in this house for 15 or 20
26:25
years. I've got to pack everything up
26:26
and move and it's true. I'm not in that position right
26:29
now, but I have had this experience with so many women.
26:32
And their divorces. And I've seen them struggle with
26:35
that home, that they can't afford.
26:36
Yeah, I've seen it too. I've seen it too.
26:38
And affordability is a relative term.
26:41
It's just a, it's more a matter of.
26:43
What are you willing to negotiate in your life?
26:46
And not negotiate, not negotiate, in your life going
26:49
from a salary that is going to be different potentially on the
26:54
other side of divorce, or needing to rebuild, or just re
26:57
giving yourself space to not have so much upkeep in such a
27:01
big home, right? Being in the home by yourself.
27:03
All of those things are things to consider.
27:06
And I've seen it happen. A number of ways with clients
27:09
for the home, how, how would someone know potentially that
27:13
they can't afford it? What are some of the signs that
27:16
they should be looking for in getting to know their finances
27:19
that like, yeah, I just this is not something that I can really
27:22
afford or that I want to be able to afford.
27:25
What are those pieces? Those clues in the financial
27:27
statements. Well, I would have them honestly
27:30
work with a mortgage Professional who is well-versed
27:35
in divorce situations because they can come up with some
27:39
creative scenarios. They can play out a few
27:41
different scenarios and help them decide.
27:44
But whether to finance the home or right because limited to
27:47
refinance at cash out, that kind of stuff, you know, really it's
27:52
money in Money out. I mean, you have to be realistic
27:57
about. Can you afford the mortgage and
28:00
the upkeep? And the thing that people forget
28:02
About is the upkeep piece of it. There are thinking about the
28:05
mortgage and the taxes and the utilities, and they're not
28:08
thinking about maybe the cost of having Landscaping, done, what
28:12
if the furnace you knows? What if something happens to the
28:15
roof and it is those unintended unexpected costs.
28:19
Yep. That sink the ship?
28:20
Yep. So that's the thing that I
28:24
really see as the big warning sign is whether that's
28:26
affordable. But the other thing that I think
28:28
people forget about is if you are counting And spousal support
28:33
and or child support to be able to make that house payment every
28:37
month. There is risk there.
28:39
Yeah, your ex-husband loses his job decides to quit his job
28:45
decides. He always wanted to be a
28:47
drummer, instead of an executive.
28:50
Yeah. Or he wants to travel the world
28:52
with a backpack, these kinds of things happen, even when you're
28:56
amicable, and he's trustworthy. And all the things things, you
29:00
don't expect happen, he could die.
29:02
Die. Yeah, and you might not have a
29:04
source of income anymore. So you need to think about all
29:06
those things. And I think that's one thing
29:08
that's overlooked. I agree.
29:09
That's overlooked in the promises.
29:11
Promises promises promises when you're going through a divorce.
29:14
Even for me, I heard a lot and it didn't end up shaking out
29:17
that way once everything was closed and the dust was settled
29:20
and the moved happen people like I tell my clients you don't know
29:24
who this other person man or woman?
29:27
You don't know who they're going to be on the other side of
29:28
divorce to your point and you don't Can't rely on promises.
29:34
You have to rely on the facts and that's what you helped
29:37
through the divorce money guide. Right?
29:39
Is that right? Is that right?
29:41
The divorce money guy details are not my thing, which is kind
29:44
of funny that I work with money but that's funny.
29:47
So through that process, you're helping them learn for
29:49
themselves how to look at their money and know it and I think
29:51
that's just like super super cool that you're taking your
29:54
talent, you're taking all of your wisdom and you tell a story
29:58
throughout the course of the book.
29:59
Do you mind sharing some of that?
30:01
Yeah. What's the story?
30:02
That you're telling in the book. Well, so there's the divorce
30:05
money guide which is the online handbook, the product, that
30:08
helps people actually do the nuts and bolts of finding their
30:12
money. Yeah.
30:13
And the book is find me, the money and it's sort of like an
30:16
intro into what it would be like to go through the divorce money
30:19
guide. It's the story of Jackie who
30:22
left her career in marketing to be a stay-at-home mom.
30:26
Her husband, Eric was having an affair, a long-term Affair.
30:30
They're getting divorced now and Is trying to figure out what's
30:33
been happening with the money because she's been hands off of
30:36
the money for several years after becoming a stay-at-home
30:38
mom. And of course, she starts out
30:41
overwhelmed and feeling insecure.
30:44
I talked about the five secret thieves of divorce but she's
30:48
experiencing and as she goes through the process, she
30:52
conquers those thieves, right? And we get to the end of the
30:55
book and it's a happy ending type of thing because she's
30:57
she's gone through this process. She feels comfortable with
31:01
what's happened to the money. She didn't, you know, she found
31:04
a stopping point where she said, I know enough about what's going
31:07
on. I could dig more into all these
31:09
documents, but I feel comfortable with the settlement
31:13
that we've come to, with my new life, going forward with my
31:17
kids, and my new job and all that kind of stuff.
31:20
We were the feeds, the five secret thieves.
31:24
Let's see if I'm going to get all five of them.
31:26
No pressure overwhelm. Shame insecurity.
31:33
Oh gosh, this is terrible. It'll come back to you.
31:35
It'll come back to me. That's that those are three
31:37
really big ones that overwhelm shame and insecurity will talk
31:42
about insecurity. Because I would say that for my
31:44
listeners numbers in themselves, the numbers can be very
31:47
intimidating and if you feel insecure about what you're what
31:53
you're entitled to or if you're not feeling empowered that can
31:59
stop you from taking the action that you need to take.
32:03
Right. For me, in my divorce, my
32:06
insecurities was that I had moved out of my house with my
32:11
parents right into my house. With my husband I had never
32:16
lived on my own before oh wow. And on the outside looking in I
32:21
felt successful or if you know someone appeared successful I
32:24
was growing a business and all these things but my insecurities
32:26
was. How am I going to do this on my
32:29
own? Yes, even though, I knew the
32:33
numbers I have for the most part in my marriage taking care of
32:38
things. It was a big hurdle to overcome
32:41
a really big hurdle and I think that to that point, the numbers
32:44
can help support with that insecurity because it's facts
32:49
versus belief, right? What do you talk about in terms
32:52
of insecurity? How do you help reframe that for
32:54
women? You know, the insecurities
32:57
really often surrounds? Will I be able to financially
33:01
support myself? And my kids it does.
33:04
And so understanding your numbers can help you become
33:09
secure because you will find a path through that right now.
33:13
Especially if you're a stay-at-home mom.
33:15
And that's the position Jackie is coming from is she gave up
33:18
her career? She's now been out of the
33:20
workforce for 10 years. She's got to update some of her
33:22
skills. She's got to play, catch-up her
33:25
peers, you know, kept going with their career.
33:28
But as she is finding that career path and And interviewing
33:33
for jobs and finding a job. She's feeling more secure that
33:36
way. But she's also figuring out.
33:38
I know about how much money I'm going to make and therefore I
33:41
know what I can afford and what I can't in Jackie initially
33:44
wanted to keep the family house and then decided it's too big.
33:48
It's too expensive. She found a more affordable
33:51
option that her kids loved and there were some benefits to that
33:54
house given where it was located and things like that.
33:57
And so all of those things together you know helped her
34:00
feel more secure in her situation.
34:02
Yeah. I listened to Wayne Dyer a lot
34:04
and what sticking out for me is that there's this imagination
34:08
that we can have about what life can look like and through
34:11
divorce it's easy to hold on to what we know.
34:15
Hmm. And especially if divorce isn't
34:17
your choice or you find out or discover some secret and it's
34:21
not necessarily the vision that you had for yourself, that you
34:26
can stay imaginative and open up a new vision for what could be
34:30
possible for your life speaking to Jackie.
34:33
For anyone out there who is finding yourself in a situation
34:37
that you didn't necessarily imagine for yourself or didn't
34:39
want for yourself. And here you are.
34:42
What Wayne Dyer says, is that through the process of
34:44
imagination, all new things can be created.
34:48
And if we have the courage to imagine what our lives could
34:52
look like, what the possibilities could be, we then
34:55
can use the numbers and sort of a dance in a way to help confer
35:00
power for what's possible. For us.
35:03
But if we don't have the courage to look at it, if we don't have
35:06
the courage to know what is, how can we then move?
35:10
We've got to choose and accept the situation for what it is
35:13
today. And I just think that's so
35:15
powerful to say this is could be one of your greatest
35:18
opportunities and careers in the studio with me today.
35:21
She's been on the podcast before and Kendall's in the studio
35:24
today. Her mom's been on the podcast
35:26
and been through you know breakups and divorce.
35:28
It's just that's my I think my call to action for any woman on
35:31
the show today who's Listening to say, what could be possible
35:35
for your life as a result of going through this really,
35:39
really hard thing? What could be possible for your
35:41
children's lives, right, and there's so much out there for
35:45
you, life could just be beginning rather than just
35:48
ending and I love the the the work that you do so much because
35:53
it becomes tangible. Right.
35:56
You're like take the step and Yacht may seem like a lot but
35:59
take this step. Okay, now take this step, not
36:01
take this step and I think that's really important.
36:03
I also find that sometimes focusing on facts is really
36:10
helpful because the divorce is such an emotional process and
36:14
sometimes just kind of putting your head down and dealing with
36:17
facts black and white numbers. The numbers are what they are.
36:20
Let's just see what the facts are.
36:22
It can be really cathartic. That's a great point is That why
36:25
you like back so much? Is that why you love the
36:28
numbers? Why do you love the numbers?
36:32
Because there is a right and a wrong answer.
36:36
And there is a puzzle to be put together and there's is there
36:41
more than one way to I was going to say there's one right way to
36:43
put the puzzle together but not necessarily I don't know, it's
36:47
just something that I'm really good at and I have the ability
36:51
to give people Clarity and help them.
36:53
See things that they didn't know before and I'm able to explain
36:57
it in a really understandable way.
37:00
So you know, when I go like this week I'm testifying in a trial
37:05
and my job is to make the judge who probably knows nothing about
37:09
accounting, make it gets a him. Make him understand this
37:14
complicated issue. And I find myself really good at
37:18
that. Yeah, yeah, I'm so grateful that
37:20
you're using your talent to make a difference in a really big
37:23
way, like this is just the start for you and your career like
37:27
this book is going to launch. You go ahead.
37:28
What? I'm 25 years into my career.
37:31
That's true. It's just such a different way,
37:34
this right? The next, right?
37:36
So, I work every year, I probably do three or four
37:40
divorce cases with clients, and it is typically clients who have
37:45
higher earnings. Sings higher asset values, more
37:47
complicated situations, and so when I decided to do the divorce
37:52
money guide. So the idea was born.
37:54
It didn't have a name but the idea was born.
37:55
I want to help people regular people who are getting divorced,
37:59
who maybe don't have complicated money situations to me, but to
38:04
them, it's complicated to them. It's a big unknown, how can I
38:07
help them? And so I was working through
38:09
what a solution for them. Might look like came up with the
38:13
idea and then said, I need to put metrics around.
38:16
And this what what do I want to do?
38:18
And I came up with I want to help 1,000 women a year, have
38:21
better Financial outcomes in their divorces and I had some
38:25
people say, oh my gosh, if thousands a lot, I don't know if
38:27
you can help that many people and I said, do you realize that
38:30
there are seven hundred thousand divorces filed every year in the
38:33
United States? If I only helped a thousand
38:37
that's not even scratching the surface of who needs my help?
38:41
That's so cool. That's so cool for you to say,
38:44
you know what, I can make a bigger difference because he's
38:47
good, right. Yeah, you could and I always
38:51
take to turn this back to the listeners because someone is
38:53
listening to this moment in the show are watching this show, I'm
38:56
going, okay, I've been in my career for 25 years but what's
39:00
next, right, how can I take it to the next level and you're
39:04
finding a way to with passion, to take your talent and tell
39:08
stories and give opportunities for someone who may not have the
39:12
The means to hire you, right, right?
39:16
Figure it out for themselves. Well, what's also really cool
39:19
is? There are people who are seeing
39:23
things that I've done on social media or on my blog, or on
39:26
YouTube and they for whatever reason aren't in a position to
39:30
even by the divorce money guide. They're not in a position to buy
39:33
my book. I don't care because guess what?
39:36
I am putting content out there that is helping them regardless
39:40
and so there are so many people who can be And even if, they
39:43
never become a client, or a customer, doesn't matter
39:46
totally. Yeah.
39:47
This conversation is for them is for anyone.
39:50
I think you know some key takeaways for the show today is
39:55
one because of the tool you are tools specifically and because
40:01
of your book specifically there's a way for someone to go
40:06
I don't know where to start. I'm lost, I'm confused, numbers,
40:10
aren't my thing, right? And you're like, you can do
40:14
this. The book is this best starting
40:17
place that if numbers are not your thing because the book
40:21
shows you how it how numbers don't have to be your thing.
40:24
No and how I don't like to say, it's simple.
40:28
Because what does that mean? If I tell you, it's simple
40:31
because everyone's like, well, it's simple for you, right?
40:34
25 years. Right, I hate to.
40:36
So I hate to say it. It's simple.
40:38
But the book makes it really tangible.
40:40
Like how would this work because what I was saying with the
40:43
divorce money guide is people are not able to wrap their arms
40:47
around, how can I really do this?
40:49
You keep saying I can do this, but I don't believe that I
40:51
really can do this. And so the book was another way
40:54
to be able to make it tangible for people.
40:58
I can tell by the excitement on your face, like, I know so
41:01
funny. What is not seeing me?
41:02
They're just hearing me just know that.
41:04
I have this little grin on my face right now.
41:06
Yeah, you do. That's so.
41:08
Well, I think we can all take our expertise and find a way to
41:13
make a difference for people and you're doing that.
41:15
And I'm just so grateful for the work that you're doing.
41:17
I'm grateful for your wanting to even come on the show and talk
41:21
with me about money because I do it all the time.
41:24
But it is, it's like for us. It's like for me it's like a
41:26
super turn on to be like, oh my gosh, like how can we help more?
41:29
People figure this shit out, right?
41:31
Because it doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be
41:33
complicated. And what were you going to say?
41:37
I was going to Veer off a little bit.
41:39
Let's go to say I'm grateful you had me here.
41:41
Yeah, you know, random reach out.
41:43
Hey let's talk and you know it's just for me.
41:46
I need to get the word out to people that they can be
41:49
empowered to do this. And there's there's a lot of
41:53
complicated feelings that I have about this but I just really got
41:57
so tired of seeing women not get their fair share in the divorce.
42:02
I see women getting Less in, they're entitled to either
42:05
because they don't know they can get more.
42:08
They don't feel confident enough to fight and they or they don't
42:11
know that more exists. Absolutely.
42:13
And so I said, fine, you know, I was the whole concept came about
42:17
because I was complaining in my in one of my coaching things
42:21
that I belong to hmm. Complaining in a breakout room
42:25
about the fact that there isn't something to help people in
42:28
their divorces to help women find more money.
42:31
Get get, you know, take more control over the money part of
42:34
their divorce and why isn't there a tool?
42:37
Then it dawned on me that I can't I just make the tool and
42:41
you did you did. So in the vein that there's one
42:45
person listening to this show that needed to hear from you
42:47
today because they hear from me all the time but you're special.
42:51
You you your journey is unique. What you offer?
42:55
The world is so unique, what's on your heart to share with that
42:59
one woman today? Who's listening to you?
43:04
I think that one woman, Maybe doesn't know if she's supposed
43:08
to be worried about what's going on with the money or not.
43:11
She's unsure, she's seen some signs.
43:14
She doesn't know we call those red flags of fraud.
43:20
There's a way to sort that out. I created an assessment a little
43:23
quiz, three minutes that will help you figure out if what
43:27
you're saying is concerning or not.
43:29
So that's sort of the first step.
43:32
I then am hoping that she'll be brave enough to dig into the
43:35
numbers and And brave men up not only because the numbers might
43:38
be intimidating but because it might be difficult to find the
43:41
answer to the question. There might be some hard
43:44
realities that you're going to come up with right?
43:49
But you owe it to yourself and to your kids to get the best
43:54
financial settlement that you can and I get some hate on
43:58
social media that, you know, I'm biased against men or I'm trying
44:04
to help women take Away from men or get more than they deserve.
44:08
Absolutely not. I'm just trying to get help
44:10
them, get what they do. Dessert get their fair share,
44:13
whatever that may be in the divorce.
44:15
You're worth it. Absolutely, that's why I would
44:18
say to the woman listening is you're worth it.
44:20
And money can be a dirty word in households, but it doesn't have
44:24
to be forever and it's possible for you to live a bigger better
44:31
life, have the courage have the courage.
44:34
I would think that for Um for someone who goes through this
44:37
process, that follows your process through the guide.
44:40
There's also some relief on the other side.
44:42
Have you ever heard that absolutely as we are intuitive
44:45
women, we are so intuitive and we could know or feel like you
44:51
say trust your gut right? And you're just giving you're
44:55
saying, all right, let's get to work.
44:57
Here's what I see. A lot of times in these
45:00
marriages is a woman, has some concerns and some suspicions and
45:06
Starts asking questions and her husband says you're crazy.
45:09
You're paranoid. You're blowing this up and all
45:11
of a sudden, she's the problem. Yep.
45:14
And I'm hoping to inspire women to trust their gut and know that
45:21
if that's the reaction you're actually probably right.
45:25
If you really wasn't doing anything inappropriate with the
45:28
money, whether that is the secret account or the secret
45:31
spending, or the affair or whatever it may be, if there
45:34
wasn't anything going on. Wouldn't he want to help calm
45:39
your fears and say, let me open up the books to you.
45:42
Let's sit down and look at the books and happy to show you
45:44
what's going on with the money so that you can understand,
45:46
that's a fried flag. And I think the actual term is
45:50
like, Financial gaslighting. Yes.
45:52
Oh, I'm going to start using that phrase Financial
45:54
gaslighting. Yeah, I've been picking up some
45:56
phrases from podcast host, and that's a really great one.
46:00
Another great one is divorce Amnesia, hmm, when they forget
46:04
about money that they have oh, I didn't tell you about that cop.
46:10
I love that too. Yeah, Financial gaslighting, it
46:13
happens all the time so if you're being gaslighted follow
46:16
your intuition. I'm going to say that in closing
46:19
for the show, follow your intuition.
46:21
There are amazing people out there like Tracy who want to
46:23
support you and guide you along with me.
46:26
Let's open up the conversation so that you can live your best
46:29
life. Divorce doesn't have to be the
46:31
end of it. It's the start of it.
46:33
If you, you know in my opinion that's where my life started was
46:35
after. My divorce.
46:36
Not saying you have to get a divorce but let's just figure it
46:39
out. Let's figure it out, right?
46:41
And you know, if you're in that part of your divorce, where it's
46:45
really yucky and emotionally taxing and you're in the throes
46:50
of anger and sadness, I know that it's really hard to hear
46:55
and to think about opportunities and happy future.
46:59
And so, you know, when we talk about this kind of stuff, I
47:02
don't discount how difficult it is.
47:04
But I Hope that everyone can be open to.
47:08
There are good things coming down the road for you.
47:10
I believe it. I believe it.
47:12
I'm not. I'm The Optimist me too.
47:15
I believe it. So you can hold onto my hope
47:16
today and Tracy's hope for you. I really hope that you enjoyed
47:20
this conversation. Any thank you so much for being
47:22
here. Thank you for having me.
47:23
Where can people find you? They can find me at frog
47:27
coach.com because I am your fraud coach through your
47:30
divorce. And I will set up a landing page
47:33
strictly for your listeners and We'll put the URL to that
47:37
landing page in the show notes. Thank you.
47:39
And take the quiz to the the red flag quiz.
47:42
Absolutely the quizzes, there the book is there, the divorce
47:45
money guide is there and you know seek me out our other
47:49
podcasts and stuff. I have a ton of information out
47:51
there. My theory is give it all away
47:53
for free. You can find a lot of
47:55
information that will help you and then that thank you so much
47:57
Tracy. Thank you.
47:58
All right, we'll see you all next time on real money.
47:35
We'll put the URL to that landing page in the show notes.
47:39
Thank you. And take the quiz to the the red
47:41
flag quiz. Absolutely the quizzes, there
47:43
the book is there, the divorce money guide is there and you
47:47
know seek me out our other podcasts and stuff.
47:50
I have a ton of information out there.
47:52
My theory is give it all away for free.
47:53
You can find a lot of information that will help you
47:56
and then that thank you so much Tracy.
47:57
Thank you. All right, we'll see you all
47:58
next time on real money.