Latest / Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding / 8. From Advisor to Retiree: Tackling the Challenges of Stepping Away with Dan Haylett

Transcript

8. From Advisor to Retiree: Tackling the Challenges of Stepping Away with Dan Haylett · Planning & Beyond® - Where financial planning meets human understanding

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think start getting intentional about building a great team of people around you.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: And give yourself an acid test.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if you don't feel like you can take three months off and never look at your emails, you haven't got a business.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think you will know that you're ready to get on the pathway to retirement if you do a retirement test run and you go away for three months and not look at your emails.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial advising meets the art of meaningful conversations.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Ashley Kwame.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: As a certified financial behavior specialist and a passionate advocate for personal growth, I'm here to help you elevate your practice and deepen your connections with clients.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: In each episode, we dive into the intersection of psychology, therapy, and financial advising.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: You'll discover practical strategies, insightful stories, and expert interviews that will empower you to not only excel in your profession, but also thrive in your personal life.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Together, we'll explore the human side of financial planning, from understanding client emotions to mastering the nuances of effective communication.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: We'll also focus on your own growth because the best advisors are those who are continually evolving.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: Get ready to transform your practice and yourself.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: This is Planning and Beyond.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Planning and Beyond Podcast.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Ashley Kwame.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm joined today by my friend colleague from across the pond, Dan Halett.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: How are you, Dan Buddy?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Very well.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Lovely to talk to you again.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, again, again.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Last week, if you didn't check out last week's episode, Dan and I dove into all things retirement, how to be or how to help your clients be a rebel in retirement.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm stealing, stealing that just for this episode.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think I stole it from somewhere.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: So nothing's original, right?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's just all kind of load.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's very, very, very, very true.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: But Dan and I had a really awesome conversation just around retirement.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: So be sure to go back and check that out.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Today's conversation is also retirement focused.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: However, I wanted Dan and I to chat more about how advisors can prepare themselves for that next chapter.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so, Dan, I'm really pumped.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: You and I were chatting kind of before we hit record here about something.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm excited to bring this conversation for advisors.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe the insights and wisdom that you have here are going to be really, really helpful.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, let's jump in if you're good.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to advisors moving in to the next chapter, when it comes to them, maybe dare I say retiring, right?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: I would imagine it's a lot different, or maybe not.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's not a lot different than how they prepare their clients for retirement, right?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because for most of them, there's a business kind of aspect, right, to it.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's a relationship part there.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: What do you see?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: You've been working as an advisor in the advisory space far longer than I have.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: What do you see advisors having difficulties with when it comes to preparing for that next step in their life?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the challenges is to get out of our own way.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: We may think we have all the answers because we do this for a living, but a bit like, I'm going to go to golf again here.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we talk about a bit like why a why a professional golfer who obviously knows how to swing the golf club very well goes and sees a golf coach.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: A bit like why a doctor who is unwell will go and get someone else to perform the surgery for them, right?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: My wife's a hairdresser.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't cut her own hair.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think there can be a bit of ego around this.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of we know what we're doing, we build plans for a living.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think the worst thing that we can do is build our own plans.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think the worst thing we can do is cut our own hair.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it doesn't take me two seconds to cut mine, but it's the worst thing that we can do is to do that.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a problem.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: I do really think it's a problem.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think we need our own planners, we need our own advisors, we need our own people to hold us accountable to our aspirations, our vision, our values, everything that we talk to our clients about.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: We say to our clients, you need to work with people like us because why do people work with financial advisors?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're not them.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: We can see their blind spots.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the definition of a blind spot is we can't see it.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: We have our own blind spots that we can't see, and it's very hard to self-to do that yourself.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a big problem.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think we need to kind of realize that we need to take our own medicine here and we need to find or work with great planners that can help us build our own plans that are independent from us and our family, bring our spouses and our kids into it, everything we talk to our clients about.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go do that.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I know this thing goes around Twitter quite a bit as kind of how many financial planners have got their own financial planner, and it's not enough, right?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's not enough.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of a big thing that I see.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, and again, we we talked last week about this runway to retirement.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: I actually think for us, that runway is longer.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: If we think about what we're in, we're in a profession that helps people and we've become very close to our clients.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how many people do we know, or how many advisors do you know and that I know that talk about going to weddings and funerals and birthdays and those critical conversations and going out to play golf or to go to a concert or to I've gone around the house for dinner, you know, those kind of things, and you kind of share moments with these people.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: How bloody challenging is it to step away from that?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's one of the hardest things to try and detach yourself away from.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, in that way, I think the runway is even more, is even longer.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think it needs to be planned even better, and I think it needs to be planned even with much more depthness to the planning to know that if you do leave when you do leave these people behind, they're in great hands.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's a there's a runway of period that you hand over your multi-decade relationship.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't mean that you don't see them anymore, but by the way, you might not be illegally allowed to give them any financial advice.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: So don't do that anymore.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you you're handing them over to someone.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: That can take three to four meetings.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: If you see your clients once or twice a year, do the maths, right?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is not an 18-month thing.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: This could be five, six, seven years before that you, you know, if you feel like this is going to take multiple meetings, multiple conversations.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that would be kind of a starter for 10 on this.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think I do think it's pretty unique our retirement.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's full of a lot more challenges than what maybe we advise our clients on.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's, oh man, there's so many good things that we can go kind of move from like a direction place.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'll say, I don't know if I've shared this with you, but my dad, he's a CPA.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: My birthday is also April 15th.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: So tax day here in America.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Jokingly, I say it's one of the reasons why I became a therapist.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, having a father as a CPA, your birthday's on tax day, you know, bound to cause some kind of some kind of drama issues there.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if he really likes that much when I say when I when I say that.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: For my dad, like I watched him growing up like work really hard.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: And now he's moving closer to 70 and he's still working.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: He's still working through tax season.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he and I have had some conversations, and you know, he will say, like, as long as I can do this, I will do it.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that for advisors as well, there's this aspect of part of the job is like there's a mental part.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like I, you know, I have the skills, like the knowledge, and if mentally like I can do it, I will do it.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I think one of the things that's important for, you know, for advisors to keep in mind here is just because you can do it doesn't mean that you should.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that's okay.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: We base, I think sometimes some of it is like, well, I can do it.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: So then I'm just going to, or or I have to maybe.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what kind of narratives are running through our heads here.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I think some of the things that you're talking about here is giving yourself enough runway.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And in order to really do that, you have to kind of start with that awareness piece and being thoughtful of, okay, just because I can do this probably into my 70s, maybe for some their 80s.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, but you know, 70s, right?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, should I?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And once you can be clear and kind of answer that question, then I think it allows you to start mapping that out, that runway out.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: What is this gonna look like?
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: How do I make the physical transition to other competent advisors, my team that I trust?
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: But then Dan, you said something that, oh man, you talked about the loss of relationships in that.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: And there's grief, right?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'll name it.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's grief in losing that.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: That I don't know.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if advisors realize.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do you think that there's an awareness there around maybe that grief aspect of losing relationships?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, there isn't.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's no awareness.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and and actually, do you know what one of the biggest things I think is when it comes to retirement, I think one of the biggest realizations, I think Carl Richards said this, right?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: No one will cry when you're gone.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we've got friends and clients are friends, right?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: But it's the same when people retire, it's kind of like, oh, I feel like I should do a great job.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying, you know, retiring.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: But by the way, soon as you step out of the corporate building, they'll replace you.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you won't, they won't, in two years' time, the only way they'll know you is because you'll be on a record on a computer as having dealt, having put a note on that computer.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like no one will, they won't even know you're gone.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same with clients, right?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's there will be a potential friendship afterwards, but I mean, this is firsthand.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: I I I helped the original founder of this business here in the UK retire and exit, right?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Part of me joining this business was to come on and buy him out effectively, right?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: So he's now gone off and retired.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: He had 20 plus years of relationships, and I and and I remember speaking to him six, seven months after he left.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the it this isn't word for word, but it was one of the comments was no one's no one's contacted me.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like no one's said, Oh, how are you doing?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that they don't like you, it's just that things have moved on, right?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, he kept in contact with two or three people, but and now we don't really speak of Ian.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like the person who shouldn't be named, it's like Voldemort, right?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's kind of like the whole thing's just moved forward in two years.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's grief, right?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you leave this thing behind and you're out in the wilderness, you're thinking, you're tapping your fingers going, where's all my friends gone?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like no one said hello, no one's checked in where I am.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think that can be a real challenge for people because we've given, we've given and we give so much of ourselves over to our clients.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure whether our clients fully appreciate how much of ourselves we give over to them.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we should realize that that they don't, it's not that they don't appreciate it, they just don't know what that is.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that can be it can be a massive, massive challenge for people that end up kind of exiting and going, well, where's everybody gone?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it would make sense for those advisors where maybe or firm owners where so much of their identity is wrapped up in that.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's okay, I'm I know I'm selling this, I'm leaving this in Dan's like hands, but kind of thought that clients would reach out, like, and who am I?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Then now if I'm not their advisor or if I'm not this owner, there can be an identity, maybe dare I say, crisis could be bold, that could be bold, but maybe for some, right there.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you couple that with loss of relationships, maybe that that's the socialization part for some people, right?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe that was how they socialize.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then depending upon how I say their intimate kind of home relationships are like it's a lot of mess in there.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: It could be it could be kind of messy, but I could also see where and or why advisors delay not wanting to deal with that, not wanting to deal with that, right?
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: The identity word is correct, right?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't, I think we touched on it really last week in the conversation we had, but there is absolutely an identity crisis going on in retirement, right?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely an identity crisis, and none more so than within our profession.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, if you think about if someone says to me, Dan, what do you do?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: I answer with, I'm a financial planner and I work with retirees, right?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not Dan the average golfer or Dan the I'm that's kind of who your identity is wrapped up in your work.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: Identity is wrapped up in work for a lot of people, and a lot of work that I do with clients is is about their identity transition.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Who do they want to be in retirement and thinking about creating multiple identities?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: But if you think about the job that we do, the job that your dad does, I think it's ever more wrapped up in an identity.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: They call it the vocation.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's a thing, it's a passion.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's a bit like being a sportsman or a sportswoman.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of that's all you've done all your career.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: You're the golfer, the football player, the basketball player, you're the thing.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are you if you don't have the ball in your hand?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: What are you if you don't have that?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: What are you if you're not out there speaking to clients about their money?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: What are you?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: And because we give so much, again, that runway is so challenging to feel like we can step off that and be someone else.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because most financial advisors are also kind of either running a business or running a mini quasi-business within a business because they're having to kind of go out and get new clients, right?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: So they're you almost so not only are you just advising clients, you're doing other stuff as well.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: So the time is occupied, and I think it's huge.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: And also then what what what I do see happens is that, as you said, the default option is, well, I won't worry because I'm just going to keep working.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: But we all know that time becomes very, very precious, and we all know how much we have to give of ourselves to our clients.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's very, very difficult to feel like you can wind down on this job.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you kind of only deal with a handful of clients, unless you've got an amazing team of people, you don't want your clients messaging you on a Friday night.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to feel like you're having to write the reports or do the thing or time-sensitive stuff.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: You might want to go away for four weeks and take your grandchildren out, yet someone's got this really urgent thing that they want to do, and you're the only person that can do it.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Your time is not going to be dedicated to spending your time on how you want to spend it.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I don't think people spend enough time in creating a business.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: Creating a business that they can step away from, that there's capable people that they trust, that their clients know, that can take on that relationship and do that.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that takes time to facilitate.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: In my opinion, it's the only way we can step away with confidence, knowing that someone is going to look after them in a way that we think is appropriate.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that takes a I think that takes a huge amount of time and trust to be able to get to that point where you can go, do you know what?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be around if you need me.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: I might stay on in the business in like a chairperson thing and I'll be here, but I'm not picking up my phone to deal with an admin quo inquiry while I'm on holiday.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've got a whole team of people to do that.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I'll come in and do the nice bits every now and again.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that takes work.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it takes a tremendous amount of intentionality, first and foremost, right?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: To be intentional about setting things up that way.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that you shared earlier, you've taken over, right, this business, right, from the previous owner.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Are these things within kind of your own practice that now you're starting to also have to consider and watching kind of that unfold?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yourself and Casey, who who's the other owner and and director.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm 42 this year.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: Casey's 44, 45, a couple of years older than me.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about, I mean, kind of, I suppose why I'm saying this stuff is because we're talking about it a lot and and and we're we're thinking about what this looks like in 10 years, 15 years time.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: We are intentionally recruiting leaders of the future of this business to enable us to feel like we can step back.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a relationship with clients.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: The business has a relationship with the clients.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: I want to make sure that I am, it's a people thing and I'm part of that relationship.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: But everybody within this business knows that they can call up someone and they will be able to kind of speak to them.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: We are intentional about introducing our clients to everybody in the business.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just kind of I deal with Dan.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we're we're already thinking, you know, there's a 10, 15-year kind of runway into going, well, if we can develop leaders of the future, we can allow them to have some skin in the game in the business.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: That skin in the game can grow, which means that they'll come up with new ideas to help the business move forward.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: That means that we train them up in a way, for instance, that we want to.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: So we're not into necessarily recruiting seasoned, experienced people.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: We want to recruit people out of college, we want to recruit young people where we can feel like there is a good amount of time to go, well, this is the way to deliver human-first financial planning, and this is the way that we want to do it.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: So when the time comes, we are giving them over to people that we know have done it the way that we believe, and not say it's the right way, but the way the way that we believe to do it.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: We're not just going to hand it to another business over there and let them go off and do the thing.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then that allows us to kind of, you know, step away and still be part of it because and still kind of be around.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so there's a lot of intentionality around making sure that those things are in play and we we follow through on that.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's two things that will happen, right?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: If if Diane Blesser, my wife, she hears me talk about this stuff all the time.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And if I don't do this stuff for us as a family that I help other people do, I'm gonna get lynched, right?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like if I don't do this, I'm a fraud.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: If I don't live and breathe this, so I want to make sure that everything that I buy into as an ethos about how to live life, how to use money, how to use wealth, if I'm not on that path, all I'm doing is advising people.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's not genuine.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's no authenticity being authentic when that's happening.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got to put myself on that path.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I've got to feel that I'm in a great position to not feel guilty when I want to step away because I'm doing the thing that I said I would do.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think from a family standpoint, I think that's wonderful.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: But the other part here that you're talking about is also modeling for your clients how to do this, how to be intentional.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when advisors are willing to go there and put in work on themselves, I'll say, you know, I've said before in previous episodes, when they're willing to do their own work, whether that's being intentional around how they're going to retire and walk away from the business, you're modeling for your clients, right?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Here's a way that you can do this.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's going to make you an even better advisor.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's going to make your clients trust you even more, right?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: They're going to see and go, wow, like, okay, Dan's doing this.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, all right.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, he's not just like feeding me here some great lines that like sound good.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: He's also putting in this work to try and figure this out.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I won't have gone on and talked a lot about in previous episodes, just around the importance and significance, around like why advisors should do their own work.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: And part of it is figuring out that retirement piece, like you said.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate you sharing, you know, just how intentional you guys are with your firm around what that runway is.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: And 42, like, Dan, you're not that old, man.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: I've got years.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be here when I'm 80.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: I've got years.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: I've got years.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it just speaks to like no matter what your age is, right?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to cause alarm, right?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you're older than 42 and have never given thought to how am I going to, what does my retirement look like?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, whatever your age is, now is actually the time.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can start now and start being intentional around what does this look like?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: What is my identity?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: What do I want that, like, what do I want my identity to be?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Who do I want to be when I reach that chapter, right?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe you don't know and that's okay, but at least starting to give some thought to it just helps kind of prime that brain.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think our clients are really curious about this, right?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: So they want to know about us, they want to know what we're doing, they want to know about the business.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: I've worked with clients who have chosen to work with me and us as a business over other businesses because of our age, right?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because we are going to be around, hopefully, after them.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: But they are concerned about this stuff.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: If we don't believe that our clients are concerned about how we are going to retire, they are all interested and they are all concerned.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: They will listen to us.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, if we tell them what our plans are for our business and us as people, not only are you letting them into your story and you're giving a bit of you to them.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, if you give a bit of you to them, they give a bit of them to you, right?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of how it works, in my opinion.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: So if we're open to them, they're going to be more open to us.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: They are interested, they will want to know what you're doing, they will want to know the succession, they will want to know.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: That their children are going to be looked after by a team of people that they trust and that you trust, right?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: So don't feel like by being open to them about, oh, actually, by the way, you know, I'm making this up, but oh, by the way, at 55, I want to be done, but I'm gonna build a world-class team of people that I'm gonna be involved with for a number of years, but I won't be your advisor, and they're gonna look after you, and we're gonna, in the next 10 years, we're gonna make sure that we do great work and you'll know them, and your children will know the team, they will frigging love that.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: They'll be like, this is cool, I know where you're going, I know what you're doing.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: And why would you not retire and do those things?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Because you've you've made me do that and you've told me to do that.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: We shouldn't be guarded and secretive around that.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Let them know our plans at any point, and they will really appreciate that and love it.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that kind of transparency, you know, going back to the trust factor, it just builds, it really just builds that trust there.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: All right, I want to go back to something you said at the very beginning because it was a direction I wanted to go, and I still think I want to go.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned having your own advisor to help navigate that chapter, right?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because again, we have blind spots, right?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: As you mentioned and talked about, and working with somebody else can obviously help that.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And another reason that I think you also were speaking to maybe not so directly, is from if you're married, if you're in a partnership, it's all the more reason to have somebody else that both you and your partner can talk about these things with.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I say that because while you, as the advisor, know the numbers and you can make the projections and you probably have all the technical stuff, right?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: You can set things up that way.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Having somebody else to have the conversation with around what is the vision?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: What do we want to accomplish, right?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Who do we want to be?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's just a tremendous, tremendous thing, right?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: I see you kind of like, yeah.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, guess who's the dominant spouse in the financial planning with me and my wife?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it is me.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it is but like it is me, right?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and actually, I would say that in 99% of relationships, like if we're talking about the dominant spouse in a relationship, you couldn't probably have a more dominant spouse than if one of the spouses was a flipping financial planner, right?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how dominant are you going to be?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: I am not dominant.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: So Clayton is definitely the financially dominant dominant one.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And Clayton's a CFP, right?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Who does this for a living?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: So and I'm and I'm really kind of just this is just coming to me now, right?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you think about that, you think about the conversation we had in the last episode about couples and the dominant spouses and how important it is to bring the non-dominant spouse into this.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, if you add a layer on that actually the dominant spouse does the thing for a living, I mean by the way, I know more than you, Mr.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Financial Plan.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I'm I've got this nailed, right?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: I've built my own plan, I know how to invest my money, I know what she's thinking because she's on the same wavelength as me.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: So don't worry about asking her anything.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've got it all nailed, etc.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like even more important than all of our clients, even more important than what we do for our clients, someone needs to do that for us.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because we are gonna have put all of our own biases and our dominance over our family on the plan.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my God, we need that.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I just think about how as the advisor, like you do such great work with and for your clients and for your couples, right?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so I believe that you, Dan, as the person, also deserve that opportunity to have transformative, powerful conversations with your partner.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: You also deserve that.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a gift, I think, that you can give yourself, right, in choosing to work with another advisor for a multitude of reasons, as we're talking about here.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: But at a just kind of basic, like you deserve that space to be able to take the advisor hat off and just be you as the partner and be with your partner and explore uh possibilities with someone else.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: As a bare minimum, even if you go and see someone like you, right?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Even if you go and see someone that can do some financial therapy.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Don't worry about going to see a financial advisor or planner that can sit there with cash flow if you believe like as a bare minimum, you you should go and sit down with someone and talk about your values, your vision, your purpose, your relationship, your relationship post-work.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because we all know that relationships in retirement change, divorce rates are high in people in 60 60 plus, getting higher because people are not having this.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, as you said, go and just talk about this stuff with someone in that's not you, that can look at the situation and help and advise, even if you don't want to feel like that, you you don't want to give up the numbers thing because no one does cash flow like I do cash flow, right?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of um that so I'll do a better cash, but you need that other bit over there.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm joking.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: But do that other bit over there.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a good, I think that's a really great point, right?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because I would imagine that a lot of advisors might be listening and they're like, like you, nobody does cash flow like I do, like I do cash flow, right?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not I'm not handing or paying for that.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to pay for that.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think you're spot on, Dan.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: It does not have to be necessarily an advisor, but find someone, financial therapist, even maybe a couples therapist.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Find someone, a professional, that can engage both you and your partner and have that kind of conversation, that more emotional conversation and talk about what is the vision, what do we want, how and where are we aligned, uh, where are we not aligned?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And what does that look like?
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, look, I so appreciate you mentioning that.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be an advisor, but someone who can have that conversation with you.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Dan, we've talked about a lot of things here for advisors to really think about and reflect on for themselves as they approach the retirement chapter.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna try saying something like super clever, and then I realized I didn't have anything.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: So as as advisors are approaching like the retirement chapter, right?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'll call it that.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: What are some low-hanging fruit things that they can do?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: Things that maybe is there anything we haven't talked about?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: What would you advise them?
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think part of it is to kind of maybe summarize and really emphasize some of the points we've made.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: So get professional help, but emphasize that point, people that are not you.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think understand that it does take a lot of work to look after clients.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not sure whether that's a part-time job, if you want to do that forever.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think start getting intentional about building a great team of people around you and give yourself an acid test.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: So if you don't feel like you can take three months off and never look at your emails, you haven't got a business.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think you will know that you're ready to get on the pathway to retirement if you do a retirement test run and you go away for three months and not look at your emails.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: If you can do that, build your business to a point where you can do it.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean that you kind of then come back and stop, but get your business to a point where you know that you've got great people and you don't need loads.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: You might want two, three, four great people that can look after clients the way that you feel like you want them is your business to look after them.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: People that are young enough to take up the mantle and and come up with ideas and think about how to continuously serve our clients, and then go and take three months off and turn your phone off.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think you're right.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: It speaks to that idea of like experiments, like trying small experiments and just seeing, right?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: With that.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I love that.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think all of that is fantastic from a summary standpoint.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: My challenge for advisors would be taking everything that we've talked about today and even last week too, because we talked about some great things last week.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Go home this weekend and start talking to your spouse.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: Plan a date, right?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Start talking to your spouse about it now.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: And when I say start talking about it, lead with the question or conversation of hey, babe, hun, whatever you call your significant other, right?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: What's your vision for our later years?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: What is your vision for that retirement chapter?
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And just start there and see where it and see where it goes.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: And look, if you're in your 30s, I get that that might feel like it's really far kind of on the horizon.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: You might be in the throes of raising kids, and I get it.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in your 50s, you might be like, ooh, yeah, we probably should be.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: There might be some anxiety or pressure, but wherever you are in your stage of life, just start having that conversation with them.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I guarantee at a minimum, it's just going to create greater intimacy between you and your partner.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: So my challenge would be to go home and start talking about that this weekend.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Great question.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: The other one is for me is just ask them what's important about money to them.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: And just what's important about money to you?
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then they could go in down the iceberg, right?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then just go kind of why and why and what does that mean?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the other one is for me is how do you want to spend your time?
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: And Megan Lurtz, I think she might have said this, but one of the questions that she asks is like, if you could buy happiness, like how much would it cost and what would you buy?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: How much are you prepared to pay for happiness and what would it, you know, if you if if you could buy it, what would you buy?
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think just kind of I I think the challenge is for me, I I I do try and sit down with my wife sometimes and talk about this, and she just feels like I'm like practicing on her a little bit.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just like you don't want to feel like you're you're bringing work home.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: You've got to set the environment properly to go, actually, this is a genuine conversation between the two of us.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't a kind of like a like a cute little fancy conversation that I'm just trying out on you that I'm gonna try with other people.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Really set it up and figure out what's important, figure out some fears.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: As you said, what does that vision look like?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: And just have a really cool conversation about it and just listen.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: One of the challenges I face is to I need someone to help me because I'll butt in for my I'll be like, oh no, no, no.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: What you mean is that like I've actually I've worked with I've worked with 50 people like you, Diane, and they've all they've all and what you actually mean is that and I'm just like Dan, shut up because she doesn't like just let her talk.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's so hard.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's why we need you need that person going, I need me to go, Dan.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: It is definitely look, it's definitely hard.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Clayton and I have the unique challenge of probably sometimes just talking about the professional side and maybe not going into those waters of what do we want as humans, right?
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's both of us running like our own businesses and being kind of in that space together.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's a challenge.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think he would probably say that in my attempt to help him to go deeper under like the waters of the surface, usually it involves me going, but tell me more.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's gotta be something else.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's gotta be, there's it can't just be that.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: It can't be that simple.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like you've got to have more thoughts or feelings around it.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I say, bless his heart, having to be married to a therapist, right?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, no, no, sometimes it is just that simple.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, I'm like, how can that be?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Dan, hey, look, I appreciate you coming on, friend, and sharing so much wisdom, having this conversation, not just this week, but also last week.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know that you shared a little bit last week about where people can find you.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: My hope is that by this point you are out of LinkedIn jail.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: But where tell us again, where can people find you if it's not on LinkedIn?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: Where can we go to find you?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: What work are you excited about doing right now?
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: I just hope that it didn't cut out on LinkedIn and it just did so they didn't hear like when you're out of jail, which would have been quite fun.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: So by the way, as she said LinkedIn jail, that I'm not in jail.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: LinkedIn, just to be clear.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Not jail.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so all of my work sits on humans versus retirement.com.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: So humansvs retirement.com and yeah, sharing kind of thoughts, sharing sketches, podcast episodes on there, talking about retirement, talking, drawing and writing mostly about the human element of retirement planning, which I know I've had such wonderful feedback from people uh both sides of the pond that have shown me how they're using some of the sketches and this stuff, and it's cool.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: So all the sketches are available to kind of download, go get them, they're all free.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Use them with clients.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: I've had advisors come up to me and say, actually, kind of what I've said and how I say it impact them as much as it's kind of so if it impacts you, amazing, but everything's there to kind of absorb.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, um keep putting content out there, keep putting stuff out there.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's a big challenge.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: There is a retirement challenge.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Many people don't want to do it like they used to.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: There is a bit of a crisis with identity, as we talked about.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: And us as advisors can help one another with this.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, I think the wisdom sits with us as great financial planners in this retirement space.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: We can help one another, help one another, and help our clients.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't absolutely.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Dan, I will just echo like your work out there in the retirement space and how advisors can help them with the human problem, right?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because as we talked about last time, it's a human problem, right?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: Not a numbers problem.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: And your work speaks directly to that.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're listening right now, I encourage you to go check out Dan's podcast, Humans versus Retirement.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of my favorites.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: I learned so much from it.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, I don't know if I've shared that with you, but it's also your podcast has also just been helpful for me in my own professional personal learning journey.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate the work that you put out.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's fantastic, it's brilliant.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot wait to see you wherever it is that we end up seeing each other soon.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm coming to play golf with Clayton at some point next year.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you're gonna see me for about a week.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna come and live in your house for a week.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so that's yeah, I'm I'm over.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Look, come, come on.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: You are more than welcome.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Bring the bring the fam uh if you want.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: But yes, please come and play golf with Clayton so that I don't have to uh is is my ask.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Dan, thank you so much, friend, for coming on.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: I've enjoyed the conversation and the time together.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see you soon.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyond thefp.com.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.