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My Little Margie · Political Junkie Podcast

• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what happened to Marjorie.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: She's a nice woman, but I don't know what happened.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: She's lost her way, I think.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_03: At the top of the show,
• 0:36
  we have Donald Trump responding to a reporter this week who
• 0:39
  asked a long and very
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: involved question that basically was,
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: what's up with Marjorie Taylor Greene?
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: The answer is Trump doesn't really know.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: And he shifted the topic very quickly to talk about foreign policy.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: But this is the My Little Margie edition.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Claire Potter.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Neil Young.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_03: And today we're going to be talking about Marjorie Taylor Greene,
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: what happened to Marjorie Taylor Greene.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: But before we get there, let's start with the news roundup.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: And boy, has there been news this week.
• 1:12
  A federal judge's ruling that created a majority Democratic
• 1:15
  district in Utah
• 1:16
  highlights the successful fight against Trump's arm twisting to
• 1:19
  get the Congress he
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: wants in 2026.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: I heard Dave Wasserman from the Cook Political Report with Amy Walter.
• 1:27
  And Dave Wasserman says basically with California and the other
• 1:33
  states that have
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: chimed in,
• 1:35
  it's zeroed out any advantage that the Republicans are going to
• 1:38
  get from this
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: redistricting.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: What are you hearing, Neil?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's really interesting.
• 1:43
  I also think just like it's worth sort of taking a moment to
• 1:47
  talk about Utah,
• 1:48
  right?
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think like a lot of folks might say, did I hear that correctly?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: A Democratic district in Utah?
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: But this is a district that...
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: allows Salt Lake City to be,
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: one district as opposed to how it's been treated in the past,
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: divided between four districts.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: Salt Lake City is heavily Democratic leaning, very, very blue.
• 2:09
  And so I think this is like very interesting how it would allow
• 2:14
  for an accurate
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: representation of a large,
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: large district in Utah that also sort of upends,
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: that place as a state that is seen as deeply red.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and you know, you could do something similar in Idaho, too.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 2:29
  you could just pluck out Boise and have that little square in
• 2:32
  the middle of all the
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: pink.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: Have you ever been to Salt Lake City, Neil?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: I have spent lots of my life in Salt Lake City.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up skiing.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 2:41
  I wrote a dissertation that became my first book where Mormon
• 2:45
  history was a huge
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: part of it.
• 2:46
  So I lived in Salt Lake City when I was writing my dissertation
• 2:49
  in graduate school
• 2:49
  for two months because I was at the LDS archives every day in
• 2:53
  Temple Square.
• 2:55
  But I also grew up skiing in Utah because I grew up in Florida
• 2:58
  and we didn't go on
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: beach spring breaks.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: We went on skiing spring breaks.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: my family vacation every year was to Salt Lake City to go skiing,
• 3:08
  which was probably partly why I became very interested in
• 3:11
  Mormon history as an
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: adult.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: I partly grew up in southern Idaho,
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: which is part of how I got interested in Mormon history.
• 3:19
  But I would have to say Salt Lake City is one of the most
• 3:21
  beautiful cities in the United States.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: Everywhere you stand, you can see the mountains.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: And now the Democrats are going to get to do their thing there.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm pretty pleased about it.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: I would live there in a heartbeat.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's a beautiful and wonderful city.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: I hear the men are really hot too.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, no comment.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: Okay,
• 3:40
  so as the House returns after an almost two-month vacation to
• 3:44
  vote on new Senate
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: legislation to reopen the government,
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: Democrats are debating whether the shutdown was worth it,
• 3:51
  whether eight of their number crossing the aisle to end the
• 3:53
  suffering was a
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: capitulation or if it was strategic,
• 3:57
  and whether Republicans can be trusted to open debate on
• 4:00
  restoring the ACA
• 4:01
  subsidies that make health insurance affordable for millions of
• 4:04
  Americans.
• 4:05
  Neil,
• 4:06
  what did you feel when you found out that the eight were
• 4:08
  crossing the aisle?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I wasn't that surprised to tell you the truth.
• 4:14
  It just felt like that this is what it was going to take for
• 4:17
  the shutdown to end,
• 4:20
  that it wasn't going to come about because Republicans conceded
• 4:24
  to the things that
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Democrats wanted and therefore all the Democrats got on board,
• 4:28
  but that there would be like a breakaway group that would be
• 4:31
  willing to cross the
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: aisle to do this.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, as
• 4:35
  You read from the experts who have commented on this particular
• 4:39
  shutdown and how it
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: compares to others in recent history.
• 4:43
  Many have pointed out that the folks that sort of generate the
• 4:48
  shutdown never get
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: the things they want out of it.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: This is consistent with that pattern.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm not surprised by that.
• 4:55
  What I think is sort of interesting is this bigger question of
• 4:59
  like,
• 4:59
  who is the winner here?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: And is this part of a brilliant democratic strategy or is this,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: evidence exhibit,
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 5:07
  one million of Democrats' fecklessness and like inability to
• 5:10
  make anything happen?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm actually not entirely sure.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I can find sort of persuasive arguments in both of those,
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: in both those sort of sides of the debates here,
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: the debate here.
• 5:22
  But I'm curious what you think here about the bigger politics
• 5:26
  of it all,
• 5:27
  Claire.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:27
  Well,
• 5:28
  one of the things that hardly anybody's talking about is that
• 5:32
  it was only eight.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: And that brought it to 60, which gives you cloter under the old rules.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: And...
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: That strikes me as odd.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, eight people, why not nine?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: Why not 10?
• 5:50
  There's certainly more than eight people who didn't have to
• 5:52
  stand for election in 2026.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: None of these eight do.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: Two are retiring, six, they don't have to stand for election.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: So I think Schumer gave them permission to do it.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: I've heard people say, well, Schumer couldn't hold them back anymore.
• 6:07
  But I think the question of what the exit ramp is from a
• 6:12
  shutdown is really important.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: And it's very rarely talked about.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: You're right.
• 6:18
  People rarely get what they want from the shutdown because it
• 6:20
  is the minority party
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: that's doing it.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: So therefore, they have almost no leverage.
• 6:26
  It seems to me that the Democrats actually did accomplish a
• 6:30
  number of things that
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: don't fit into the category of winning or losing.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: One is they put health care on the table.
• 6:37
  Health care is something that Americans have a tendency to
• 6:40
  forget about unless
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_03: they're actually using their health insurance.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: But collectively, to have a conversation about it, that rarely happens.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: So really, the Democrats have put health care in the Republican basket.
• 6:54
  And one of the things we know is that red states are going to
• 6:57
  be hurt as worse or
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: even more badly than blue states with this.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's one thing.
• 7:05
  I think the other thing is that it was time to get Adelita
• 7:11
  Gravalha back in the conversation.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: And she is,
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: of course,
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: the woman who was elected in Arizona,
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: a Democrat,
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: to replace her father,
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: who had died.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: And she represents Arizona 7.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oddly, she was elected seven weeks ago.
• 7:32
  And Mike Johnson said he could not possibly administer the oath
• 7:35
  of office until the
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: House was back in session,
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: which,
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_03: of course,
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: was a lie.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_03: He can do it whenever he wants.
• 7:41
  He could meet her,
• 7:42
  you know,
• 7:42
  in Chicago in a bathroom and do it if he wanted to.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: But he didn't do it.
• 7:46
  which has meant that Arizona 7 has been entirely without
• 7:49
  representation for seven weeks.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: And Johnson says that's not true.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: She can do things, but she didn't have a congressional email.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: She didn't have a congressional website.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: Nothing was plugged in in her office.
• 8:01
  And so I actually think letting the Republicans hang Adelita
• 8:07
  Grijalva out there for seven weeks
• 8:12
  showed the transactionalism of the Republican Party for a state
• 8:16
  like Arizona,
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: which is perpetually purple,
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes to all that.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 8:22
  So anything else you think they accomplished and anything that
• 8:25
  you think was a mistake?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think the health care point you make is important.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the arguments I find really persuasive here,
• 8:35
  that it's both the health care and sort of pocketbook issues
• 8:40
  that the Democrats
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: have been able to
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: put to the center of American politics,
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: and that's going to serve them well over the coming year.
• 8:49
  And I think it is true that those two items have been at the
• 8:55
  top of sort of political coverage.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I would say even just sort of
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Americans' minds in the last two months.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think I've mentioned this before,
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: and it's anecdotal,
• 9:06
  but I think it's an anecdote that's really evocative of what
• 9:08
  you're saying.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've had so many friends I've noticed on Facebook,
• 9:12
  and these are the sort of friends that I don't even know what
• 9:14
  their politics are,
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: and they don't strike me as folks who follow the news closely.
• 9:19
  I've seen so many of them making Facebook status updates about
• 9:23
  their premiums going up.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think they're doing it in part because,
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: A,
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: it's happening,
• 9:31
  but also because they are somehow absorbing that this is part
• 9:36
  of the public
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: conversation right now.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so those public conversations,
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: when they're both sort of explicit and implicitly felt by Americans,
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: can shape,
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: election consequences.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think, you know,
• 9:54
  it's possible to look at these events and see this as part of a
• 9:57
  concerted democratic strategy.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think the bigger question is,
• 10:01
  does something in the fall of 2025 have electoral consequences
• 10:08
  a whole year from
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: now?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we just don't know.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Or is it like this is creating a moment in which,
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: nine,
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: 10,
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: 11 months from now,
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Democrats running for office can point back to this and say,
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: remember when,
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: remember when,
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: remember when the Republicans did that?
• 10:23
  You know,
• 10:24
  we're here to fight for you on health care and other pocketbook
• 10:28
  issues.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see.
• 10:29
  But I do think you're right that this put those issues out
• 10:32
  there in front and
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: allowed Democrats to benefit from it.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I agree.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think there are a couple of things that we haven't talked about.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: One is,
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: of course,
• 10:42
  we're going into the holiday season and SNAP benefits were
• 10:47
  either dwindling or cut
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: in half or not going to happen at all.
• 10:51
  And I think we were moving into a Grinch type situation with
• 10:55
  that in which it's
• 10:57
  unclear whether the American people would blame the Democrats
• 11:00
  or the Republicans
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: for not being able to feed their children over the holiday season.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Can I just say something more about that?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think it's really, we haven't mentioned Snap yet.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think,
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: what it also did was it sort of set up these softballs to Trump that,
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: he hit out of a park in terms of like the worst park ever,
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like that he just says the most horrible things on the record, right?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like that he basically doesn't care that millions of people are about...
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: to have food taken away from them.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 11:32
  those are probably being edited into hundreds of commercials
• 11:37
  that are going to run
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: nonstop.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's important, too.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then you also mentioned the holidays.
• 11:44
  And of course,
• 11:45
  we know that the huge news event of the last week or two was
• 11:48
  also
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: the grounding of airplanes and the huge hassles at airports.
• 11:56
  And that would have been all the worse through the intense
• 12:00
  holiday season.
• 12:01
  So I think there's a lot that's going on here and a lot of
• 12:05
  politics at work and a
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: lot of really consequential things.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: And what the Democrats make of it,
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: they can blow an advantage any given day,
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: but it seems like they have a lot to work with here.
• 12:17
  Well,
• 12:17
  and it wasn't clear that Sean Duffy actually had to cancel
• 12:21
  those flights.
• 12:22
  But what was clear is that when he began to do it,
• 12:26
  people like Abigail Disney were countering.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: And Abigail Disney is, of course, the heiress to the Disney fortune.
• 12:32
  And she spends all of her money trying to repair the damage
• 12:35
  that her family has
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_03: done to the world.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: But she did an Instagram in which she revealed something I did not know,
• 12:41
  which is that 12% of the flights in the air at any given time
• 12:45
  are private planes.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: And she said,
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: if you want to ground some planes,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_03: why not ground all those captains of industry?
• 12:52
  Let's keep the private jets on the ground and let all the
• 12:55
  people fly for free.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_03: So it wasn't clear how that was going to shake out either.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: I would say,
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_03: finally,
• 13:03
  the Epstein stuff was beginning to percolate back into the news
• 13:08
  and this kind of
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: insistence,
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: and we're going to talk about that next,
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: that Grijalva was not being sworn in.
• 13:16
  because she would be the final vote on the petition to release
• 13:23
  the Epstein files.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: And let's just talk about that for a second.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: She has been sworn in by now.
• 13:29
  She was the final signature on a bipartisan petition demanding
• 13:33
  the full release of
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: the Epstein files.
• 13:36
  And Speaker Mike Johnson has scheduled a vote on that petition
• 13:39
  for next Wednesday.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: In advance of that,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_03: as of Wednesday,
• 13:44
  we have the release of about 20,000 pages of emails between
• 13:49
  Jeffrey Epstein and a
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: variety of other people,
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: including Donald Trump,
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: or not actually Donald Trump,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: but he's talking about Donald Trump.
• 13:57
  And it's actually an important point of fact that Donald Trump
• 13:59
  does not use email.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_03: He has never, to the best of my knowledge, written an email.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: But also Harvard President Larry Summers is,
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: I hope,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: not leaving the House because of all the emails he sent.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: There are a couple of things that strike me about this, Neil.
• 14:16
  One is that Democrats needed to clear the deck from the
• 14:19
  shutdown to let this
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: Epstein thing have its full effect.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: So by sort of walking off the stage,
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: they opened up the stage for another play entirely,
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: one that everyone likes better.
• 14:33
  The other thing that really struck me about this is that these
• 14:37
  20,000 pages of
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: emails are in a Google Doc.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 14:43
  you can go to Google and there's a link from the government
• 14:48
  webpage to Google where
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: you can go and just download all of them,
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: which I just actually find astonishing.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: I can't even tell you why, but what do you think, Neil?
• 14:58
  Yeah,
• 14:58
  it does feel a little like almost too transparent,
• 15:01
  too open,
• 15:01
  right?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: The very things we asked for, it feels a little unsettling.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think in a way almost like untrustworthy.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, you know, obviously this is legitimate.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, the 20,000 pages
• 15:16
  Is part of this just inundation to sort of drown out the actual
• 15:20
  event by providing
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: too much evidence around it?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering if that's maybe part of the strategy here.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of interesting things in it, obviously.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: there's no smoking gun email exchange between Trump and Epstein,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: but that's because Trump doesn't do that.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a lot of emails about Trump.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think what this shows us is that Epstein
• 15:46
  was incredibly involved with and thinking about Trump for a
• 15:50
  very long time.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's representative of both,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: the nature of their relationship and also Epstein's,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: dawning recognition that as president,
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Trump really mattered.
• 16:02
  And so he was trying to launch investigations of Trump's
• 16:06
  finances and all sorts of
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: things to get dirt on him as well.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: So what a tangled...
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Webb seems to be between these two men.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: As always, the larger question is, does any of this matter?
• 16:19
  And I'm not sure that this is any different than the things
• 16:22
  we've known before,
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: but am I wrong there,
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Claire?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is this like a tipping point moment?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Are we on the edge of a coming tipping point moment?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_03: Well, let me say that Watergate felt a little bit like this.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: what people forget about Watergate is that it first happened,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: in the,
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: what was it,
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: the summer of 1971 that the break-in at Watergate happened.
• 16:51
  And it was sort of briefly in the news and people talked about
• 16:54
  it and then it was shut down.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: And then, of course, all the journalists went to work.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: But really, Nixon doesn't resign for another two years.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: It takes two years.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: years for Watergate to play out.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: Now, obviously, this Epstein stuff has been around for a while.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: I don't have any fantasies that it is going to take Donald Trump down.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: But as we're going to be talking about a little later in the show,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: it certainly is creating fissures in the MAGA movement.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: that he is heavily implicated in this.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: And as you were saying,
• 17:26
  some of the Epstein emails absolutely suggest that there's
• 17:30
  other stuff to look at,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: that there are pictures,
• 17:32
  that Trump has lied about the amount of time he spent with
• 17:36
  Epstein and at Epstein's
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: properties.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: There's also some peculiar sub-themes too, like Larry Summers' wife,
• 17:46
  And I guess there's a whole bunch of emails where Larry Summers
• 17:49
  is asking Epstein
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: for dating advice,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: which is so vile and horrible.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I can barely read those emails.
• 17:56
  But then he finally marries a woman who is in,
• 18:00
  I believe,
• 18:00
  the comparative literature department.
• 18:03
  Harvard and she starts writing Jeffrey Epstein giving him
• 18:08
  reading advice like here
• 18:10
  are some things that you could read on the flight to Australia
• 18:13
  and you know she'll
• 18:15
  say well you know you've already read Lolita but what about my
• 18:18
  Antonia and she's
• 18:20
  recommending all of these books where grown men are having sex
• 18:25
  with young girls
• 18:27
  And so I think there's going to be something else happening
• 18:31
  here around people who
• 18:35
  are very high up in cultural institutions being exposed for
• 18:40
  what they were willing
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: to do for money.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: And then I also think that...
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: If MAGA cannot come up with a defense of Trump on this,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: things will start to crack apart a little bit.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: It may not take Trump down,
• 19:00
  but I think it will be very difficult for a great many of the
• 19:04
  senators and
• 19:05
  congressmen who have been all about the pedophilia to actually
• 19:08
  stay on point.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with that.
• 19:12
  I don't see this taking Trump down if we imagine that Trump
• 19:16
  being taken down as
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: some sort of Watergate scenario.
• 19:23
  But I think that there's other ways that Trumpism and Trump
• 19:27
  himself are damaged
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: sort of decisively by this.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: That feels very possible.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, all the fragmenting we're seeing happening right now.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think the question is, is this fragmenting?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Are these the early cracks of like...
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: a huge crack up or these early cracks that'll be,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: papered over,
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: and that unity will be reestablished in the face of an election.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, but I'm of the mind that you are, Claire, that this
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: feels like a moment in which Republicans are going to splinter,
• 20:08
  especially in terms of GOP leadership in ways that are really
• 20:11
  significant for
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Trump.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:14
  this in some ways like tees up our bigger topic really
• 20:18
  perfectly because I think
• 20:19
  Marjorie Taylor Greene is someone who really fits in quite
• 20:22
  interestingly here in
• 20:24
  terms of how she's navigated this issue and what it means for
• 20:27
  her relationship to
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Trump.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: and the GOP writ large,
• 20:32
  but I think you're also seeing other signs of that from other
• 20:35
  Republican leaders.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this can't feel great for John Thune, right?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: This is not what he wants to be doing at all.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's others like him who just...
• 20:47
  are probably going to make some decisions here that signals a
• 20:51
  bit of distance
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: between them and Trump.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: And also,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Republican voters,
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: are really showing lots of division around this,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: and that's what ultimately matters most.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 21:03
  and there are two women I would like to get into the
• 21:05
  conversation here before we
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: shift to Marjorie Taylor Greene.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: One is Lauren Bobear.
• 21:11
  And one of the things I learned about these petitions is that
• 21:16
  members can remove
• 21:18
  their names from the petition at any point until the 218th name
• 21:23
  is achieved.
• 21:25
  So apparently part of what was going on in the seven weeks in
• 21:28
  which Grijalva was
• 21:29
  not being sworn in was the White House twisting arms among
• 21:34
  people who had signed
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: the petition and trying to get them to take their names off.
• 21:38
  Several days ago,
• 21:40
  Lauren Bobert was brought to the White House for an arm
• 21:43
  twisting session.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: And she said, no, she said she wouldn't take her name off.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: And you know how I feel about Lauren Bobear.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: I just think she is the most vile person,
• 21:53
  but I actually kind of thought that both she and Marjorie
• 21:56
  Taylor Greene are two
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: women who really get it about sexual harassment and sexual assault,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_03: particularly Bobear,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: who was married at 16,
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: who was a waitress for many,
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: many years,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: held a number of working class jobs.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: There is something here that feminists used to imagine,
• 22:18
  which is that women just get it and they won't give up when
• 22:26
  something like this
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: happens.
• 22:27
  So,
• 22:27
  you know,
• 22:28
  I really,
• 22:29
  really admire Bobert for sticking with it in a peculiar way.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: One last Epstein-related thing,
• 22:38
  which is journalist Michael Wolff has slapped Melania Trump
• 22:41
  with a lawsuit claiming
• 22:43
  that her threat to sue him for a billion dollars is an attempt
• 22:47
  to stop his
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_03: reporting on Melania's alleged involvement with Epstein.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there is a little sub-theme here that says...
• 22:56
  Melania was actually trafficked to Donald Trump and met him
• 22:59
  through Epstein.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_03: Do we think that's going to go anywhere?
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 23:02
  Michael Wolff is entertaining as hell and he's got a great
• 23:05
  Instagram and he's got a
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_03: good podcast,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_03: a substack now,
• 23:08
  and he's also got a GoFundMe because you can contribute to help
• 23:12
  him sue Melania
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: Trump.
• 23:14
  He says that part of what he wants to do is get her on the
• 23:17
  stand and ask her
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: questions about Epstein.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_03: This is just so crazy, Neil.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: What's going to happen?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: him saying like,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: I would love for them to take the stand and answer some questions for me.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like, yes, bring it on.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Also, like, I imagine this lawsuit is going to be thrown out.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And the point that most of Trump's lawsuits
• 23:42
  The reason why Trump does most of his lawsuits is as a threat
• 23:47
  of intimidation,
• 23:48
  right?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: To silence folks.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: And he's been incredibly successful in doing that.
• 23:53
  But Michael Wolff does not seem like the average person or even
• 23:57
  the average
• 23:58
  businessman who might be easily intimidated or willing to go
• 24:01
  along with things just
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: to keep...
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 24:05
  so many of the threats and the lawsuits that Trump has done
• 24:10
  through the years are
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: people he's in business with.
• 24:12
  So they had some sort of incentive to put it away and to go
• 24:20
  along with the way Trump saw things.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: But Wolf has none of that.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Driving him.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, quite the opposite.
• 24:29
  So this seems like such a bad strategic move on the part of
• 24:34
  Melania Trump.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Also a billion dollars.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Give me a break.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's ridiculous.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_03: and apparently it is illegal to sue people just to intimidate them,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: which I had not known since Trump does it all the time.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_03: So let's shift to Marjorie Taylor Greene,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: otherwise known as MTG,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: which I think is a play on RBG from Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
• 24:56
  who became a really sort of a character in popular culture at
• 25:02
  the same time as she
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: became a Congresswoman representing Georgia 14 in 2020.
• 25:07
  Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about Marjorie
• 25:10
  Taylor Greene?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: Who is she and how did she end up in Congress?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it feels like she's a woman who needs no introduction, right?
• 25:16
  Because has there been anyone who's been more in the news than
• 25:21
  Marjorie Taylor
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Greene for the last couple of years?
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: She certainly made herself front and center in media coverage.
• 25:27
  And I think that's a big part of what drives her and also what
• 25:32
  shapes her politics.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, Greene is a...
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: a Georgia businesswoman,
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: her family,
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: her father has quite a successful construction business,
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And sort of suburban Atlanta.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And she was supposed to run the family business and did for a while,
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: but did so,
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 25:51
  without much interest in it or ambition and leading it and sort
• 25:55
  of has had a really
• 25:56
  interesting personal biography where she's just gone from one
• 25:59
  thing to another,
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: including becoming a CrossFit fanatic for a while.
• 26:05
  And then like ultimately running for Congress and running for
• 26:08
  Congress as someone
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: who was never engaged in politics,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: like her family is not,
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:14
  the sort of like Georgia business family that donates heavily
• 26:18
  to Republican,
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: the Republican party.
• 26:20
  Like she had a long history of never even voting in elections,
• 26:24
  like leading up to her own race.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: And yet seems to have been radicalized at a moment in which
• 26:33
  was really fortuitous for her in terms of like the shifting
• 26:37
  American political
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: scene,
• 26:38
  also deeply connected to Trump and the way in which he remade
• 26:43
  American politics
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: was such that I think really serves someone like Marjorie Taylor Greene,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: who is prone to conspiracy,
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: prone to like outrage,
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: prone to grievance politics.
• 26:55
  But she's someone who's really changed a lot,
• 26:56
  even in her short time in Congress.
• 26:58
  And I think it's one thing to sort of note her political
• 27:04
  evolution is one way to put it.
• 27:06
  But I think if you look at her longer biography and her
• 27:09
  inconsistency in her own
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: life,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think it allows us to see
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: or to talk about her politics is not necessarily a series of evolutions,
• 27:20
  and maybe more just as part of a consistent inconsistency in
• 27:25
  her own life.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_03: another way of saying that would be she's extremely independent minded,
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: which is what she has been saying to people when they say,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_03: why can't you just support President Trump?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: And she says,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 27:40
  I disagree with him about some things and I'm very independent
• 27:44
  and I'm not a
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: follower.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's one piece of it.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think one of the essays we read, at least I think we read it.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: I read it somewhere at some point.
• 27:55
  characterized her as a seeker,
• 27:58
  as someone who has been taken with serial enthusiasms.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like she was a Catholic and she became an evangelical Protestant.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_03: She worships at, I believe it's called the Northwell Church.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: North Point Community.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: North Point Community Church in Alpharetta,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: Georgia,
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_03: which is a non-denominational evangelical church.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Mega church.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, one of the biggest in the country.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: I so want to go.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: Have you ever been?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: I want to go.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we'll go together.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've been to many, many, many of its similar versions.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've been to many enormous, many a mega church.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: And this is one of the biggest in the country.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: But apparently she's had a very inconsistent
• 28:46
  you know,
• 28:47
  relationship with that church as well,
• 28:48
  like was a sort of huge devotee of it.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think folks there have said, oh, we haven't seen her in years.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: But you were saying that this is sort of part of her seeking, right?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: Right, exactly.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_03: And also apparently she left the Catholic Church
• 29:02
  because of the scandals over pedophilia and the church covering
• 29:07
  up those scandals and so on.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: And she was just disgusted by that.
• 29:11
  So I think there's another theme in Marjorie Taylor Greene's
• 29:15
  both personal and
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_03: political life,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: which is that she really detests corruption.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: And that there may be something here where some of the aspects of Trump's
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: inconsistencies are really getting to her.
• 29:32
  But let's roll back to her first term,
• 29:35
  which was really quite tempestuous.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_03: She wasn't...
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_03: She didn't like to play with others.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: Her best friend was Lauren Bobert.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: And together they were sort of seen as this sort of cheesy couple,
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: this sort of bobsy twins in from the country kind of thing,
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: which is probably unfair and sexist and horrible.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: But it was easy to do that because she was spreading conspiracy theories,
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: some of them which were blatantly anti-Semitic.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: She was threatening Democratic colleagues.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: She was a conduit for Russian propaganda.
• 30:09
  In 2021,
• 30:10
  she was suspended from Twitter for spreading COVID
• 30:12
  misinformation.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_03: And she was fined $50,000 for not wearing a mask on the House floor.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: Now,
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: this is where I started to notice Marjorie Taylor Greene,
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_03: which is she finally agreed to wear a mask after paying $50,000 in fines.
• 30:27
  But then she had these masks made that had things on them like
• 30:31
  free speech and MAGA
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: and Trump and so on.
• 30:34
  So she would appear with this mask,
• 30:37
  but the mask had a blatantly partisan message.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: She's also a self-identified Christian nationalist.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: So that first two years,
• 30:49
  she really doesn't get to do anything because she got suspended
• 30:52
  from all of her
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: committees.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: So how did what did this do for her?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: it certainly didn't put her in good stead with Republican leadership,
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: but if anything,
• 31:05
  it made her a huge national name and it attracted a ton of
• 31:09
  attention and a ton of
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: support and a ton of financial support.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: she has become an incredible fundraiser and often uses these moments,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: has fundraising opportunities.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: And folks have written about how, as a young congressperson,
• 31:26
  she was really not well versed in so much of what it means to
• 31:32
  be in the House of
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Representatives.
• 31:33
  But one of the things that folks point out she got really good
• 31:38
  at really fast was
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: in fundraising.
• 31:40
  And again,
• 31:41
  in particularly sort of leveraging these moments to her
• 31:44
  financial advantage.
• 31:45
  And I think there's some people who think that all these twists
• 31:48
  and turns she's
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: made are calculated for the very purpose of
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I think,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: whether or not it's driven by that or that she uses it to benefit from,
• 32:02
  it's clear that she can raise a lot of money and she has a real
• 32:06
  enthusiastic base
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: behind her.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think in one of the pieces we read,
• 32:11
  there was a number like 3.2 million that she raised in a couple
• 32:15
  of days after that
• 32:17
  classic time that she and Lauren Bobert were heckling Joe Biden
• 32:21
  at the State of the
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: Union address in 2022.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: So in many ways, she represents the worst of MAGA.
• 32:29
  what has also been kind of interesting to follow about her
• 32:32
  though is that she makes
• 32:34
  a lot of friends i mean bobear was her friend until she wasn't
• 32:38
  and then they really
• 32:39
  started doing yelling at each other in public and so on but
• 32:43
  matt gates was a friend
• 32:44
  of hers she and gates were very very close and then um george
• 32:50
  what's his name from
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_03: long island santos
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: George Santos became her really good friend.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: And George Santos,
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: we believe,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: was pardoned because Marjorie Taylor Greene asked Trump for the pardon.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a piece of Marjorie Taylor Greene.
• 33:06
  I don't want to misuse this concept,
• 33:10
  but she's kind of queer on a certain level.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, she's always sort of out there on the edge.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_03: She doesn't seem to want to come into the institution.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_03: but rather she makes her alliances on the French.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think you rightly noted the independent streak in her,
• 33:28
  really the independent predisposition of her personality and
• 33:32
  her character.
• 33:33
  And I think in one way,
• 33:35
  that independent politics,
• 33:39
  that independent sort of stance...
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: looks different when,
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: say,
• 33:44
  Biden is president and you're running as an opposition to
• 33:49
  Democratic control of the
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: White House.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: It looks a lot different when your own party controls everything.
• 33:56
  And the way you signal and the way you even operate as an
• 34:01
  independent actor becomes
• 34:05
  one where the people she's really taking on the most are fellow
• 34:08
  Republicans and
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: even Trump.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so...
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_01: she loves to call the Democrat,
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: as she says,
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: the Democrat Party,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: the party of communists.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not like she's giving that up.
• 34:17
  And it's not like she's looking to make like bipartisan
• 34:23
  alliances in order to move
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: legislation she cares about forward.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just that I think.
• 34:30
  in her own psychology and also in the particular political
• 34:36
  movement that she drives
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: and she benefits from,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: it's about taking it to the man,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: whoever the man is.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a huge American appetite for that.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: and just listening to you,
• 34:52
  one of the things that makes me think about is whether Marjorie
• 34:55
  Taylor Greene is
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_03: kind of the canary in the coal mine for the limits of MAGA politics.
• 35:00
  I mean,
• 35:00
  I know what the Republicans imagined and certainly the
• 35:03
  redistricting pointed to this.
• 35:06
  was a permanent majority right that that republicans would be
• 35:09
  in control in the
• 35:11
  united states until the end of time and that they could use
• 35:14
  their leverage now to
• 35:16
  make that happen to consistently shut off opportunities to grow
• 35:20
  a democratic base
• 35:22
  but when in fact that is your goal you become the institution
• 35:28
  and so for an
• 35:28
  anti-institutional party that has recruited people like
• 35:32
  marjorie taylor green
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: Or, I mean, Rand Paul.
• 35:36
  I mean,
• 35:36
  he's another one in the Senate who is constantly sort of
• 35:39
  pushing back.
• 35:40
  When you're the institution,
• 35:42
  you will then develop opponents within your own ranks.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: And Green is certainly one of them.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting how often her response to things,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: particularly when it has to do with disagreements with GOP leadership,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: is,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just here to serve my constituents.
• 36:01
  And on one hand,
• 36:02
  that's what we would hope any congressperson would say,
• 36:05
  right?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is what my constituents are telling me they want.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's really interesting,
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: though,
• 36:12
  when that is the argument that you make against your own party
• 36:17
  and the things that
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: the party is doing.
• 36:19
  And when some of the points that she's defending or the points
• 36:24
  of departure are things like...
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: the Affordable Care Act and,
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:29
  critiquing the party as not caring about the lives and the
• 36:33
  incomes of working
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: people.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so it suggests that
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Marjorie Taylor Greene isn't driven by ideology,
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: or even that she doesn't have a coherent political ideology.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm not sure what it suggests in its place.
• 36:52
  I don't believe that she truly only cares about delivering to
• 36:58
  her constituents
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: whatever it is they want.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think that that is a useful argument for her to make to,
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: signal her independence,
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: to signal her anti-institutional bona fides,
• 37:14
  and also to sort of position herself as someone who is getting
• 37:18
  things done on
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: behalf of the voters who took her to Washington,
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: as opposed to Mike Johnson,
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: who's willing to send everyone away on a two-month vacation.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: and Green,
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: now I'm trying to think of her district,
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: which I think is a suburban district northwest of Atlanta,
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's a whole series of very white suburbs northwest of Atlanta, right?
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but one that gets very rural very fast.
• 37:48
  So it has those sort of like northwest suburbs of Atlanta sort
• 37:53
  of on its border.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: But then a good chunk of it is
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: A very rural corner of northwest Georgia that she never lived in.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 38:04
  she lived within a different district that neighbored it that
• 38:07
  was fully suburban
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: and one that she knew that she wouldn't be able to win,
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: even if it was a Republican leaning suburban district.
• 38:15
  It was one that wasn't going that she wasn't going to look good
• 38:17
  at,
• 38:18
  you know,
• 38:18
  that she wasn't.
• 38:19
  going to be the sort of Better Business Bureau,
• 38:22
  Country Club,
• 38:23
  Republican type.
• 38:24
  So she moved to this other one where the sort of conspiratorial
• 38:28
  MAGA politics at
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: least made sense at the time she was running for office.
• 38:33
  Well,
• 38:33
  and what she is saying about herself is,
• 38:36
  I haven't changed,
• 38:37
  MAGA changed.
• 38:39
  And one of the things she was criticizing Trump for in that
• 38:41
  little clip that he was
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: talking back to the reporter in was,
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: what is he doing
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: going abroad all the time.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: When we have a shutdown,
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_03: when we've got economic problems at home,
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: when prices are rising,
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_03: why is he always on a plane going somewhere else?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: And of course,
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: there's an easy answer to that question,
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_03: which is in their second term,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: presidents have a tendency to do foreign policy.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's how they want to be remembered.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: That's where they will make their big mark,
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_03: although that's probably not going to be true of Trump.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: But she said, you know, I'm America first.
• 39:16
  And he said he was in America first,
• 39:18
  but he doesn't look like he's doing America first.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_03: So come back home.
• 39:22
  And I would also say her district is an interesting mix of
• 39:26
  suburbanites who are
• 39:28
  feeling the pain as much as any Long Island suburb or
• 39:32
  Massachusetts suburb and
• 39:34
  rural people who are suffering from the downstream effects of
• 39:38
  the tariffs,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: And all sorts of other Trump led economic policies.
• 39:45
  I mean,
• 39:46
  again,
• 39:46
  a tax on the health care system,
• 39:49
  rising costs,
• 39:51
  all the rest.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 39:53
  and I think the America first thing is really interesting
• 39:56
  because for a long time,
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: it operated as sort of an unquestioned unifying theme of the right.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a place in which Green and others,
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: are starting to say,
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: no,
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: not that America first,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: this America first,
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like not that version.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:19
  And like that we are the true holders of a politics that is
• 40:23
  consistent with the
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: America first that voters the voters backed.
• 40:28
  And this is also happening again with the debate that's sort of
• 40:32
  emerged in the last
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: day or two around the H1B visas.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:35
  And like Trump sort of coming out for them and the America
• 40:40
  first or the particular
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: online version of the America first.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: crowd is going nuts over Trump and the H-1B issue.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is a thing that also like Green has her finger on.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I totally agree on that.
• 40:58
  And I think we could have predicted that Trump was going to
• 41:02
  back away from the H-1B
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_03: visa thing,
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_03: because it is the tech industry that uses them most consistently.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I think there's a real question around H-1Bs,
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_03: around bringing people in who can be paid a great deal less,
• 41:20
  because the only reason they're allowed to stay here is because
• 41:23
  they have that
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: visa.
• 41:25
  versus what would it mean to actually get the talent you need
• 41:29
  up to speed in any
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_03: reasonable timeframe to support these tech companies?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 41:35
  I do think education is a huge problem in this country and
• 41:39
  nobody wants to untangle
• 41:41
  the pieces of it that would actually provide the workforce that
• 41:44
  we need to not
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: bring in workers from abroad.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: Not that I'm against bringing in workers from abroad, not at all.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: And we've done it for decades.
• 41:53
  But Greene is also really leaning hard on some economic issues
• 41:58
  that Trump either
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: understands very poorly or is not interested in.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: She spoke out very early against the expiration of the ACA tax credits.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think she even said after the big,
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_03: beautiful bill was passed,
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't know that was in it.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, she did.
• 42:14
  which was kind of a not very smart thing to say because that is
• 42:18
  the job of her
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: staff to tell her what is in it.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: On the other hand, she may really not have known.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_03: She has also said, and this was really interesting to me.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_03: She put this post up on X on Tuesday and I'm just gonna read it to you.
• 42:34
  Restoring America's ability to raise a family on one income to
• 42:39
  me should be a top priority.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: It was once the norm in America.
• 42:44
  And what's interesting to me about this is this is a position
• 42:47
  promoted by Elizabeth
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: Warren and her daughter,
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: Amelia Tiagi,
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: in 2004 in a book they wrote together called The Two Income Trap.
• 42:55
  And one of the things Warren talked about when she was running
• 42:58
  for president was
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_03: that when both parents are working and something bad happens,
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_03: you have no one else to throw into the workforce.
• 43:07
  And so our economy and our society should be based on one
• 43:12
  income per family,
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: even though it's perfectly fine to have both parents working.
• 43:19
  But that an economy that requires both parents to work is a
• 43:24
  fragile economy and
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_03: it's fragile for families.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: And Green seems to be in that spot.
• 43:28
  And I'm wondering,
• 43:29
  did she read the book or did she just figure this out herself?
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_03: What do you think?
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: Or what's the motivation behind this?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is this a class critique or is it a social order critique?
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's probably a combination for Greene.
• 43:47
  But I think it's hard not to see that argument from Marjorie
• 43:53
  Taylor Greene and not
• 43:54
  think that it's also inflected by and shaped by a certain
• 43:57
  cultural conservatism
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: about women in the home and
• 44:01
  male headship and all the rest in a way that I don't think is
• 44:06
  what was animating
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: Elizabeth Warren when she was writing that book two decades ago.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: But that's really interesting,
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_03: Neil,
• 44:14
  because you're pointing out how some of these economic issues
• 44:19
  that different people
• 44:20
  with different ideologies might come together on them for
• 44:24
  different reasons.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 44:27
  And I think,
• 44:27
  you know,
• 44:28
  we can imagine that happening,
• 44:31
  certainly in a different media age.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 44:33
  I think the challenges for that are just challenges for sort of
• 44:36
  like bipartisan,
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: not consensus,
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: but like bipartisan alignment and activism are all the more difficult,
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: in our moment and all the ways we know that
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: Social media and cable news have siloed us all.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: But yes,
• 44:55
  I think that there's a way in which the sort of economic
• 45:02
  critique that may be
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: driven by really different cultural values...
• 45:09
  could work towards a reform or towards a different policy
• 45:15
  agenda than we have
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: currently if like things are only sort of
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: seen through the framework of like Republicans versus Democrats.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the other thing I would add to that,
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: which is not necessarily a related issue,
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: but sort of a related politics is Israel.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Taylor Greene is incredible.
• 45:38
  You mentioned earlier that she has a long history of
• 45:41
  anti-Semitic comments.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: She's also emerged as one of the loudest critics of Israel.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: And being anti-Israel and anti-Semitic are not synonymous,
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: although there's often a lot of overlap there.
• 45:55
  But to see her emerge as such an outspoken voice on the right
• 46:02
  against Israel and against U.S.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: involvement, really, I think is the way to put it, against U.S.
• 46:06
  involvement in Israel,
• 46:08
  again,
• 46:09
  that she ties back to her America first place.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: politics.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Why are we giving all this money to Ukraine?
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: Why are we giving all this money to Israel?
• 46:16
  I'm like,
• 46:16
  I'm the only one who's willing to say it about Israel on this
• 46:19
  party.
• 46:20
  It's really interesting and also links her to folks on the left
• 46:27
  in some ways,
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: although I think there would be like
• 46:30
  huge amounts of disagreement when you really got to look at
• 46:34
  what the politics there were.
• 46:36
  But I think there's just a way to say that like Green's
• 46:40
  independent streak or her
• 46:42
  sort of unusual politics maybe don't look as independent or
• 46:47
  don't look as unusual
• 46:50
  if you think about them outside of the framework of just like
• 46:53
  the Republican Party.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_03: And Trumpism.
• 46:56
  And Trump has drifted because Trump has no real moral center
• 47:01
  and he has no coherent
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_03: ideological approach to anything.
• 47:06
  So he sort of hops from thing to thing and does what is
• 47:10
  convenient or what will
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: benefit him or what's easy or what allows him to...
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_03: to get a win.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_03: and actually green is sort of emerging as this counterpoint to say,
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: no,
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_03: actually MAGA and America first meant something.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_03: This is what it meant.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_03: And this is what my criticism is based on.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_03: I want to go back to Epstein.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 47:34
  And just also point out that Marjorie Taylor Greene has been a
• 47:38
  consistent critic of
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_03: the failure to release the Epstein files,
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: along with Thomas Massey,
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_03: who I actually like a great deal.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_03: He seems like a good guy.
• 47:48
  And she spoke on September 3rd at a press conference on the
• 47:52
  steps of the Capitol.
• 47:54
  surrounded by the alleged victims of financier and alleged sex
• 47:58
  trafficker Jeffrey
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_03: Epstein to demand the release of the materials.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_03: And then she said,
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_03: which I thought was kind of fascinating,
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_03: she said that when they were released,
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_03: she would quote,
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_03: read every damn name into the congressional record.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, put that on TikTok immediately, right?
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like, don't we want to watch that?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, we do.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_03: We do.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_03: She seems very, very sincere about this issue.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: How do we understand that?
• 48:29
  Because a lot of Republican women kind of avoid it and they
• 48:32
  don't really want to
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: talk about the various ways that women are endangered in the workplace.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_03: They don't want to talk about gender inequality.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_03: They don't want to talk about anything
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_03: that might open them up to being labeled a feminist.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: And we know that Marjorie Taylor Greene is not a feminist,
• 48:52
  although there is something called conservative feminism that
• 48:55
  we might shoehorn her
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_03: into.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_03: How should we be thinking about it, Neil?
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_03: And also,
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_03: just to add a little bit,
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_03: because you grew up in the South,
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_03: you know a lot about Southern women.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_03: How does she read as a Southern woman on this thing?
• 49:11
  Well,
• 49:11
  I think to the first part of the question,
• 49:14
  it's hard not to see this like,
• 49:18
  vigilant commitment that she has to this issue and not imagine
• 49:22
  that there must be
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: some personal connection to the issue.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: And she has never suggested that's the case that I'm aware of.
• 49:31
  But I also think just thinking about her own adult life as
• 49:36
  someone who worked in
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: the construction industry,
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: who then got very involved in CrossFit.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, these are highly, highly male spaces.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I imagine...
• 49:47
  that there was lots of exposure to things that probably really
• 49:55
  made an impression
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: on her and perhaps even some bad scenarios.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I wonder if that's partly shaping this.
• 50:07
  um she just also seems like such a bulldog and like this is
• 50:13
  like the bone that
• 50:14
  she's not gonna let go of um yeah and i think she's also not as
• 50:19
  i said earlier
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: she's not
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: She's not an Elizabeth Dole.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: She is not a suit-wearing, country club, corporate Republican woman.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: She's scrappy.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: She's...
• 50:39
  You know,
• 50:40
  not always that put together in terms of her presentation and
• 50:44
  the way she speaks.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's really authentic to who she is.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: But that also seems sort of important here.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like she's not a go along to get along type.
• 50:55
  And I think she's not the sort of Republican corporate woman
• 51:01
  who's had to turn a
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: blind eye to a lot of things in order to sort of advance their career.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's probably all part of it.
• 51:14
  And she's certainly not in the mold of the Republican Southern
• 51:18
  woman that I think we've
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: been most familiar with in the last couple of decades,
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: who's,
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: the luncheon holding,
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: supportive wife who maybe then pursues a political career.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: She's really navigated her own course, it seems like.
• 51:38
  And I think that's one that is relevant for this attachment she
• 51:44
  has to the Epstein issue.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I agree with what you've said there.
• 51:50
  And,
• 51:50
  you know,
• 51:50
  just to bring Lauren Bobert into the conversation a little bit.
• 51:53
  I mean,
• 51:53
  I've written about Bobert and Green a fair amount on the
• 51:58
  Substack.
• 51:59
  And listeners,
• 52:01
  you can just throw it into the search engine and find those
• 52:04
  articles.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_03: Some of them are in the top 10.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_03: People really, really like them.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: But there's also a piece in me...
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think I said earlier that Lauren Bobear,
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_03: was married at 16 and worked as a waitress.
• 52:19
  There's not a waitress in the world that hasn't had to put up
• 52:23
  with fanny slaps and
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_03: grabs and so on for tips.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think there is some feature here.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_03: I also have to wonder,
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_03: given what we have seen of the MAGA Republican Party,
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_03: both in those texts from young Republicans,
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_03: from the behavior of Donald Trump,
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_03: from the behavior of Corey Lewandowski,
• 52:47
  My guess is there's a fair amount of sexual harassment on
• 52:50
  Capitol Hill in the
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: Republican party as well.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_03: And it's nothing I know about.
• 52:56
  It's nothing I've seen,
• 52:58
  but it would be odd if any workplace had no sexual harassment.
• 53:02
  And this Republican party seems particularly able to empower
• 53:07
  men to do terrible things.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_03: So Fast Company,
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_03: the tech and design platform,
• 53:16
  is calling Marjorie Taylor Greene's evolution the brand pivot
• 53:19
  of the year.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_03: She's been making a tour of liberal outlets.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_03: She was on The View.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_03: She was on CNN.
• 53:28
  She has been sort of moving past the normal conservative
• 53:32
  outlets to get herself out
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_03: there to a broader audience.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_03: Do we think she really wants to run for president in 2028?
• 53:41
  It seems like this feels like the type of thing you would do if
• 53:44
  that's what the
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: goal was,
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: particularly given how she has interacted with the media in the past.
• 53:51
  I mean,
• 53:51
  we read a really great profile of her in the Atlantic from,
• 53:56
  I believe,
• 53:56
  from 2021.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: her first year in Congress and the reporter spent a ton of time,
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: interviewing everyone around her and finally got to ask her a question at
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: an event.
• 54:09
  And Marjorie Taylor Greene says,
• 54:13
  are you that reporter who's talking to all my friends?
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to speak to you.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: You're just a Democrat activist.
• 54:20
  And there's like 100 examples of those where she was stopped by
• 54:25
  reporters on
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: Capitol Hill and says,
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_01: I will not answer your question.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: You're a Democrat activist.
• 54:29
  There's one very famous one when it's actually a British
• 54:32
  reporter is trying to
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: interview her and she won't answer their question.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so
• 54:39
  That was a pretty consistent attitude and strategy she had with
• 54:46
  media for the first
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: couple of years of being on Capitol Hill.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: That is not what she's showing now as she's going to The View,
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: as she's going to places that she might have characterized as hot duds of
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: democratic activism in the past.
• 55:00
  for her to make this departure from previous ways of
• 55:03
  interacting with media is to
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_01: signal that she's now setting up,
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: she's now working on behalf of something else,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: which seems like a national run.
• 55:14
  Let's remember also that she wanted to be governor of Georgia
• 55:18
  or wanted to run for
• 55:19
  the governorship and that the Trump White House said they
• 55:23
  wouldn't get behind her.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's both shaping
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: her response to Trump in general,
• 55:29
  but also maybe shaping how she is sort of thinking about a
• 55:35
  national strategy here,
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: especially how it relates to traditional media.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_03: and as you can see in any photograph of Trump and the people around him,
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_03: it's such a male institution,
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_03: the MAGA Republican Party.
• 55:50
  And,
• 55:51
  you know,
• 55:51
  she's ambitious and smart,
• 55:53
  and she must be feeling that,
• 55:54
  too.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_03: I know a gay guy who is a political consultant,
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_03: a GOP political consultant,
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_03: who at one point I was fulminating about Marjorie Taylor Greene.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, no, no, no, she's really smart and funny and nice.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_03: And it kind of took me aback and made me think,
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_03: OK,
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_03: let's see what you got and let's see what we're looking at.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_03: you and I have talked about this before,
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: that the first woman president of the United States will be a Republican.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think that's in the cards now,
• 56:25
  but I'll be cautious about making that prediction for another
• 56:28
  three years or so.
• 56:31
  Let me also just toss this in because I didn't put it in the
• 56:34
  news summary,
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_03: but the Supreme Court turned down the gay marriage case this week.
• 56:39
  Kim Davis has to go away,
• 56:41
  go back to Kentucky and pay that couple that she turned away
• 56:45
  $335,000.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_03: That kind of thing also makes me think that
• 56:54
  MAGA is going to have to moderate itself and it knows it's
• 56:57
  going to moderate itself.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, this is the court.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the Trump administration,
• 57:02
  but the court seems very alert to what the Trump administration
• 57:06
  wants in all of
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_03: these things.
• 57:08
  And this would have been an important case for Christians,
• 57:12
  really important case.
• 57:14
  So it seems to me that that happening around the same time as
• 57:18
  Marjorie Taylor
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_03: Greene redoing her image of
• 57:23
  that there are conversations in the Republican Party that we
• 57:26
  are not attuned to yet.
• 57:29
  Well,
• 57:29
  listen,
• 57:30
  they none of the election news from last week was good for the
• 57:34
  GOP.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: And if anyone there is paying attention and really recognizing reality,
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: they're mindful of the huge
• 57:46
  the huge uphill climb I think they have for the next year going
• 57:49
  into 2026.
• 57:50
  So there are going to be lots of folks who double down on the
• 57:53
  thing they've been
• 57:53
  doing because they think it's some sort of ideological purity
• 57:56
  test or they think
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: it's like some commitment to core values.
• 57:59
  But I think there's going to be a lot of Republican operatives
• 58:02
  and leaders who say,
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_01: nope,
• 58:04
  we can mix things up a little bit so that we are not
• 58:08
  experiencing a shellacking
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: next November.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_03: Hard agree.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_03: Hard agree.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_03: So, Neil, let's turn to what we want to go viral this week.
• 58:19
  You have a particularly,
• 58:21
  I don't know,
• 58:23
  it's just bizarre and scary contribution.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_03: So why don't you hit us with it?
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, this is a piece that came out from the BBC yesterday.
• 58:31
  The headline is Italy Investigates Claims of Tourists Paying to
• 58:36
  Shoot Civilians in
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: Bosnia in the 1990s.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: This is a horrific story,
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: although one I should say hasn't been fully evidenced,
• 58:44
  but there is an investigation underway based on some pretty
• 58:48
  credible evidence that
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: rich Italians...
• 58:52
  paid to travel to Bosnia-Herzegovina in the early 1990s to
• 58:58
  participate in what were
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: called sniper safaris,
• 59:01
  where they would pay these enormous sums to sit outside of
• 59:07
  these perches above
• 59:08
  Sarajevo and shoot at civilians during the conflict that was
• 59:14
  going on there.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: is all coming out because of a journalist named Ezio Gavazzani,
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: please forgive my terrible Italian pronunciation there,
• 59:27
  who has filed a complaint and apparently has been investigating
• 59:30
  this for a long
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: time.
• 59:31
  He was aware of it during the 90s when this supposedly was
• 59:37
  going on and had done
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: some investigating,
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: but apparently wasn't able to fully sort of
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: report this out,
• 59:45
  but was inspired to revisit this again because of a documentary
• 59:48
  he'd been watching
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: and has started to dig further once again.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_01: And in February, he handed his findings over to prosecutors.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a lot to be said here.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_01: For one, again, there needs to be a lot more investigation here and
• 1:00:08
  real documentation of whether or not this is something that
• 1:00:11
  really happened.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's evidence that really suggests it is,
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_01: but there's a lot,
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_01: of missing evidence to really confirm that this is what was taking place.
• 1:00:20
  And a lot of folks who have sort of credible evidence to
• 1:00:24
  suggest that it's more of
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: an urban myth and a story that sort of caught hold.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, for one, it speaks to the importance of
• 1:00:37
  Independent journalism and the work that investigative
• 1:00:40
  journalism journalists do
• 1:00:43
  that often is decades long to go after the most difficult and
• 1:00:49
  the most challenging
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: stories and stories that,
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_01: people in power.
• 1:00:55
  um spend great effort and making sure never see the light of
• 1:00:59
  day which apparently
• 1:01:00
  has been part of this story as well um the you know bosnian
• 1:01:04
  leaders have done their
• 1:01:05
  best to make sure none of this is ever investigated um so i
• 1:01:11
  think that's a huge
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: part of this story and um
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: It also just feels so...
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: In our very dystopian moment,
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: it just feels like a particularly gruesome story to read,
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: even as it doesn't come out of our...
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_01: it's not a contemporary story, but one from several decades ago.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: But what a headline to see in my feed yesterday.
• 1:01:38
  And I definitely hope that he'll continue and others will
• 1:01:44
  continue to investigate
• 1:01:45
  this and we'll know whether or not this is something that
• 1:01:46
  really happened.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, arguably, they must have been very powerful people who did this.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_03: this strikes me as something you would pay a lot,
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_03: a lot of money to do and was sort of marketed as this dark,
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_03: rare experience,
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:02:06
  doesn't it feel like it has such resonance with the
• 1:02:09
  conversation we were having
• 1:02:10
  today about the Epstein files and the sort of folks who are
• 1:02:12
  caught up in that?
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a really smart point.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: If they're wealthy, they're probably also very powerful.
• 1:02:19
  And who knows what sorts of names might have been involved in
• 1:02:22
  this if this was indeed a thing.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, if we needed more arguments for socialism, we've got one.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, wealth is just like so corrupting.
• 1:02:35
  The idea that people can just indulge every desire that they
• 1:02:39
  have,
• 1:02:40
  no matter how horrifying.
• 1:02:42
  And that it can be,
• 1:02:43
  it can happen because you have money and everybody wants money.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just, it's horrifying.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, we're going to post a link to that listeners.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_03: If you can bear to read it.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to end on a happier note.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_03: My pick this week is already viral, but I missed it.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know why.
• 1:03:04
  Another one of those shows that I watched the first episode
• 1:03:06
  decided I didn't like it.
• 1:03:07
  And that only came back to it four years later when I was in
• 1:03:10
  bed with the cold last week.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_03: I am currently in love with the television show Hacks,
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_03: which first dropped on,
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_03: it was HBO then,
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_03: it's now Max,
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_03: in 2021.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_03: There are four seasons.
• 1:03:22
  There's a fifth season coming up,
• 1:03:24
  and I think it's going to end after that.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's a series that stars Hannah Einbinder as Ava Daniels,
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_03: a struggling young comedy writer,
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_03: and Jean Smart as a veteran stand-up comedian at the end of her career.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_03: This series is so beautifully plotted and written,
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_03: and it has so much to say,
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_03: not just about women and creativity,
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_03: but about all of us committing to learn from generational differences.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_03: And part of what's wonderful about
• 1:03:53
  einbinder and smart as a pair is einbinder is this sort of woke
• 1:03:59
  young thing who has
• 1:04:01
  a lot of opinions and almost no life experience and smart as um
• 1:04:07
  as the comedian
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_03: knows everything except she doesn't know what young people think.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_03: So together they make one whole person on a certain level.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I've watched about two and a half seasons of it.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the things I've noticed is that
• 1:04:28
  Ava,
• 1:04:29
  the writer,
• 1:04:31
  has this very problematic mother who she doesn't really connect
• 1:04:34
  to.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_03: Deborah, the comedian, played by Jean Smart, has a daughter who's a mess.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_03: So she's not really very maternal and Ava's not really daughterly.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_03: But again, together, they make a whole mother-daughter pair.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_03: And they change each other.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_03: And they change each other in really important ways.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_03: It also is a kind of women's version of entourage,
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_03: which is,
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_03: everybody has enough money.
• 1:05:04
  Deborah Vance,
• 1:05:05
  the comedian,
• 1:05:06
  has like six houses all over the United States.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_03: Meals are produced on demand.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_03: There are private planes and so on.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_03: So you can...
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_03: As opposed to your viral piece,
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_03: Neil,
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_03: wealth here becomes something that's just fun and comfortable.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_03: But Vance is also not disconnected from the people who made her wealthy.
• 1:05:26
  And it's a really good portrait of a certain kind of woman in
• 1:05:31
  entertainment who has
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_03: had to fight and scrap for absolutely everything that she has gotten,
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_03: but never forgets that it's her fans that have put her there.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_03: And it's obviously something you see in country music a lot.
• 1:05:45
  Like I remember going to a Reba McIntyre concert in Windsor,
• 1:05:49
  Connecticut or something like that.
• 1:05:51
  And people would run up to the stage and hand Reba McIntyre
• 1:05:55
  bouquets of flowers.
• 1:05:57
  And she would take them as she was singing and thank them and
• 1:06:00
  put the bouquet aside.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_03: And there were all these deeply human interactions.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you see...
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_03: Deborah Vance doing that as well with her fans.
• 1:06:09
  And so just it's a wonderful portrait of entertainment as it
• 1:06:15
  was and entertainment
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_03: as it is,
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_03: and maybe entertainment as it could be again,
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_03: if young people and older people could teach each other what they know.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I love the show, too.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_01: I do think there is an inconsistent season, which I'm trying to remember.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was maybe season three that sort of
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_01: felt like it wasn't as strong as the others.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I love,
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_01: the heart of it,
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: is that relationship that,
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:06:41
  the generational divide and how the two of them connect across
• 1:06:45
  it and don't connect
• 1:06:46
  across it in many ways and how that shapes the relationship and
• 1:06:49
  also how they
• 1:06:50
  connect across that generational divide and don't connect
• 1:06:53
  across that generational
• 1:06:54
  divide to form the comedy that Gene Smart's character is doing
• 1:07:00
  and sort of this
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: constant question of like,
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: Who's her audience?
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_01: What's the message?
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: What are the jokes?
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: Does she need to retool herself for a new moment?
• 1:07:10
  Does she need to stay true to the thing and the supporters who
• 1:07:16
  were there who made
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_01: her famous in the first place?
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, the two leads are just absolutely perfect in their roles.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_03: Stellar.
• 1:07:25
  And Jean Smart was in Designing Women,
• 1:07:27
  which,
• 1:07:27
  as I remember,
• 1:07:28
  is one of your favorite shows.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_03: All right, Neil.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I think we've gotten to the end of the show.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks a lot.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's been real, and I'll see you next week.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_01: See you later.
• 1:07:49
  SPEAKER_03: And that's it for today's show.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for hanging out with us.
• 1:07:53
  Share this podcast with a friend who loves history,
• 1:07:55
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• 1:07:56
  and smart conversation.
• 1:07:58
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• 1:08:03
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• 1:08:04
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• 1:08:07
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• 1:08:09
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• 1:08:14
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• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_03: See you next week.