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Making Pain Into A Bridge Live Like A Citizen From Ted Talker Eric Liu · Arroe Collins Like It's Live

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  Speaker 1: How many times have you been in the car, you're
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  Speaker 1: at a red light for just a brief moment, and
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  Speaker 1: it wasn't enough time to switch podcasts? Because I am
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  Speaker 1: a podcast listener. I know what it's like to be
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  Speaker 1: so involved in a story. And then from out of nowhere,
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  Speaker 1: it's like, I'm bored. I'm bored. I got to get
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  Speaker 1: out of here. How can I find the next podcast
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  Speaker 1: like right now? Well, you have to go searching. How
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  Speaker 1: many platforms for it?
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  Speaker 2: How about this? Arrow.net. A-R-R-O-E.net. Enjoy your exploration. There you are, Mr. Rockstar.
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  Speaker 2: Did you see that football game last night? Which one?
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  Speaker 2: The Ravens. The night game on NBC? The Ravens, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: No, I only saw bits and pieces of the Jets
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  Speaker 3: and Giants, and then I turned on Everybody Loves Raymond reruns.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, that's me too, man. That's living. See, you need
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  Speaker 1: to put that in your book, Eric, that we all
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  Speaker 1: go back to these. And it's not a comfort thing.
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  Speaker 1: It's just we want to really be entertained.
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  Speaker 2: I want to laugh. We want to laugh. That's so true.
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  Speaker 2: That is so true. Everyone loves Raymond.
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  Speaker 3: So Arrow, Arrow, you could go if you want till 2025.
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  Speaker 1: Look at that. We've been blessed today, Eric. Look at that.
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  Speaker 1: And it's coming from Michael. I love this because you
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  Speaker 1: are speaking my street with this.
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  Speaker 2: Book, Eric.
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  Speaker 4: Oh, thank you, man. I'm so glad to be here
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  Speaker 4: to be.
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  Speaker 1: So open and transparent because you know how people are
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  Speaker 1: when they come up across somebody who's got maybe a
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  Speaker 1: word or a path for them to become stronger in
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  Speaker 1: their personal life. You always get labeled.
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  Speaker 2: Come on, Mr. Happy.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, I need some information now. And it's like, Oh,
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  Speaker 1: don't treat me like that. I'm just as human as
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  Speaker 1: you are. I just listen.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that's right. And I think this is the,
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  Speaker 4: you know, this, uh, the reason why I wrote this book, uh,
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  Speaker 4: live like a citizen was, uh, to respond to so
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  Speaker 4: many people around the country who, you know, they're despairing
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  Speaker 4: about what's broken and how poisonous things are on, on
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  Speaker 4: TV and in our public life. Uh, but they just
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  Speaker 4: literally like, don't know where to begin. Well, what do
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  Speaker 4: I do? Uh, and my first answer goes to write
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  Speaker 4: what you're, what you're talking about here, which is turn
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  Speaker 4: your gaze away from the national, turn your gaze away
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  Speaker 4: from TV and turn your gaze back to each other
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  Speaker 4: to place and relationship, you know, and recommit to actually
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  Speaker 4: building these habits. And that's why the book is organized
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  Speaker 4: around these eight elemental verbs of how to see each other,
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  Speaker 4: how to listen, how to feel, how to join, how
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  Speaker 4: to fight in a healthy way, how to change, how
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  Speaker 4: to imagine, and how to commit. This is the stuff
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  Speaker 4: that's well before politics and voting and organizing. This is
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  Speaker 4: the stuff that's about, do you know how to live
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  Speaker 4: with others? This is like the level of preschool. Like,
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  Speaker 4: can you play well with others? And unfortunately, in America
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  Speaker 4: right now, we kind of need a preschool refresher course.
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  Speaker 1: That is so funny that you bring that up because
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  Speaker 1: one of the things that I do only because I
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  Speaker 1: love people so much is that I work at a
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  Speaker 1: grocery store and people are always saying, why do you
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  Speaker 1: sit there and talk with everybody that comes through?
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  Speaker 2: Because they're beautiful. They have stories.
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  Speaker 4: Because they're beautiful.
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  Speaker 2: I just want to hear their stories. I'm so addicted
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  Speaker 2: to that.
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  Speaker 1: Arrow.
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  Speaker 4: I love that, you know, and I think of course that's,
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  Speaker 4: you know, I don't know what's chicken or egg. I mean,
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  Speaker 4: you could say, well, of course that's what he does
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  Speaker 4: for a living, but no, I think you do this
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  Speaker 4: for a living because by nature you love to listen
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  Speaker 4: or you've built that muscle for listening. And I think
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  Speaker 4: the thing is for the people who are listening to
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  Speaker 4: us talking right now, you don't have to be a
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  Speaker 4: professional podcaster and broadcaster. All you have to do is
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  Speaker 4: make a choice that, you know, instead of just moving
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  Speaker 4: past and, uh, treating this transaction as a transaction and, uh,
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  Speaker 4: Or I'm assuming immediately because you see what this person's
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  Speaker 4: wearing or how they're talking or, you know, what their
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  Speaker 4: hairstyle is that you've got them figured out. And, oh,
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  Speaker 4: I don't want to talk to that kind of person.
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  Speaker 4: But you start with this deep human curiosity that I
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  Speaker 4: think is elemental curiosity. for what it means to hold
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  Speaker 4: a community together. When we lose that deep elemental curiosity
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  Speaker 4: about who is this person? What's their story? I kind
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  Speaker 4: of want to know, you know, even if I think
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  Speaker 4: I'm not going to like them, like how'd they get here? Like,
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  Speaker 4: that's kind of interesting to me. Um, people, when they
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  Speaker 4: feel that way, when they feel that they're being heard
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  Speaker 4: that way and seen that way, it becomes contagious. Then
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  Speaker 4: they'll pass it on, right? Uh, And so I love
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  Speaker 4: that you do that at a grocery store.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you said one of my favorite words, and the
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  Speaker 1: word is heard, because one of my things that I
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  Speaker 1: really do strive to do, especially with these young adults
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  Speaker 1: that are still in high school and they're reaching out
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  Speaker 1: for their first time jobs, I will sit there and say,
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  Speaker 1: do not listen to their accent. Do not judge them.
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  Speaker 1: They are human beings just like you are. They are
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  Speaker 1: in need just like you are. If they're asking a question,
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  Speaker 1: you serve them like the people they are.
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  Speaker 4: Mm hmm. You know, what you're getting to, we haven't
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  Speaker 4: used this word yet, but it is a word that
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  Speaker 4: is absent from so much of our life. Dignity.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 4: You're just trying to tune in to the fact that
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  Speaker 4: every one of us has this inherent human dignity. And
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  Speaker 4: right now, in our dehumanizing politics and our dehumanizing economy,
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  Speaker 4: people feel ground down and people are made to feel
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  Speaker 4: small right now. And we're just not... you know, we
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  Speaker 4: all crave respect. We all feel disrespected, but we're not
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  Speaker 4: yet willing to give respect. And to me, you know,
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  Speaker 4: you got to give it to be able to get it.
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  Speaker 4: And what you're trying to teach these young people is
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  Speaker 4: something that we could all teach each other. And to me,
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  Speaker 4: you know, this is, again, when I think about what
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  Speaker 4: it means to live like a citizen, it means actually
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  Speaker 4: remembering that it's not all about you and remembering that
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  Speaker 4: no matter what, for all our differences, we're in a union.
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  Speaker 4: We got to live together. We can't just separate off
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  Speaker 4: from each other we can't just split off red from
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  Speaker 4: blue or north charlotte from south charlotte or this neighborhood
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  Speaker 4: from that neighborhood like we're in it together and we
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  Speaker 4: got to learn to keep on dealing with each other
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  Speaker 4: and it starts not with okay i'll compromise on this
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  Speaker 4: political issue but it starts with what you're starting with
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  Speaker 4: which is who is this person what is their inherent
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  Speaker 4: dignity where can i find the beauty in them and
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  Speaker 4: how can i get curious about how they got to
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  Speaker 4: where they got and how they came to see the
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  Speaker 4: world the way they see the world and to me
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  Speaker 4: That's a set of muscles that, you know, we've got
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  Speaker 4: to exercise together now.
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  Speaker 1: So are you saying that I have to like the
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  Speaker 1: people in North Charlotte because that's where all the NBA
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  Speaker 1: stars are, NASCAR, the rock stars and the actors are
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  Speaker 1: living up there in North Charlotte?
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  Speaker 2: I don't know, man. I like hanging out in this
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  Speaker 2: forest down here in South Charlotte.
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  Speaker 4: Hey, celebrities are people too, man.
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  Speaker 1: You know, there are so many things inside this book.
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  Speaker 1: And I really feel like that. I, I have sat
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  Speaker 1: down with my grandmaster in martial arts. Are you, did
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  Speaker 1: you study the martial arts? Because you have a lot
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  Speaker 1: of things inside this book. If you didn't, I'm taking
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  Speaker 1: this book to my grandmaster and I'm going to say,
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  Speaker 1: you need to learn from Eric here, sir.
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  Speaker 4: Arrow. That is a high, high compliment because no, I
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  Speaker 4: never did take martial arts. Uh, But I tell you,
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  Speaker 4: I am super influenced by so many things, whether it's
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  Speaker 4: the kind of mindset and spiritual kind of heart set
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  Speaker 4: of people who practice martial arts, whether it's, you know,
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  Speaker 4: people who are really great musicians and tune into each
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  Speaker 4: other all the time, whether it's people in different faith
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  Speaker 4: traditions who are really about how do you create a
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  Speaker 4: space that invites people to join? Right. Like all these
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  Speaker 4: things are ways to. kind of break past the ego
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  Speaker 4: is what you're talking about, right? You're talking about your
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  Speaker 4: great martial arts teacher are saying, like, if you want
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  Speaker 4: to be good at what you're doing here, you've got
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  Speaker 4: to kind of break down this illusion that I'm a
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  Speaker 4: self that gets to be a bubble and gets to just,
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  Speaker 4: you know, bounce off other people. But we're all interconnected
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  Speaker 4: in this deeper way. And I think that is the Um, I,
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  Speaker 4: I really take that as a high compliment.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I like what you just said. And it really
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  Speaker 1: ties into what we started off with because one of
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  Speaker 1: the things that, that I learned from, in fact, it
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  Speaker 1: was you, Eric, you're the one that pushed me into
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  Speaker 1: doing the research. And that is, is that we have
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  Speaker 1: a situation. We all know we all have situations. Now
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  Speaker 1: put your concentration on the solution. And that's what I
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  Speaker 1: picked up from your book. Go get the solution.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, thank you for saying that. And to me,
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  Speaker 4: you know, so many people who we work with around
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  Speaker 4: the country, uh, And they have that instinct. They want
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  Speaker 4: to be part of the solution, but they don't know
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  Speaker 4: where to begin. And my answer, this is the chapter
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  Speaker 4: in the book that's how to join. My answer is
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  Speaker 4: join a club, join a club like they're like, but
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  Speaker 4: there's so many clubs, there's so many issues like pick anything.
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  Speaker 4: It doesn't even have to be a civic or a
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  Speaker 4: political thing. Pick a NASCAR club, a gardening club, a
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  Speaker 4: book club, a neighborhood group. Join something where you got
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  Speaker 4: to keep showing up in a repeated way with a
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  Speaker 4: group of other people who you didn't know before. And
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  Speaker 4: you got to learn to solve things together. Like the
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  Speaker 4: solving things together may be like, okay, what are we
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  Speaker 4: going to plant in this plot of the garden? Or
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  Speaker 4: it might be, okay, who's bringing the chips for our
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  Speaker 4: poker night here? But whatever it is, joining a club
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  Speaker 4: builds a different kind of muscle that is so necessary
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  Speaker 4: to for democratic life. And you don't build that muscle
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  Speaker 4: when you're just sitting on a screen or just kind
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  Speaker 4: of yelling at the screen. But joining and learning how
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  Speaker 4: to join with people who are unlike you is the
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  Speaker 4: most elemental thing we can do. And that'll teach you
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  Speaker 4: then how you get to the solution. And once you
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  Speaker 4: start joining that club, you'll be like, oh, okay, I'm
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  Speaker 4: kind of interested now from joining this gardening club. I'm
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  Speaker 4: kind of interested, you know, in conservation, or I'm interested
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  Speaker 4: in what sportsmen and gun owners can do to kind
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  Speaker 4: of preserve this part of our natural resources here. I'm
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  Speaker 4: interested in the way climate change is affecting my insurance
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  Speaker 4: rates in my part of my community. And you'll go
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  Speaker 4: deeper in something else. But you first build that muscle
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  Speaker 4: of being with other people and showing up and being
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  Speaker 4: counted on in a regular way. And a lot of
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  Speaker 4: folks are like, well, I don't got time for that.
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  Speaker 4: But the fact of the matter is, We spend five
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  Speaker 4: hours a day looking at our phones. You got time
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  Speaker 4: for that. It's just a matter of how you allocate
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  Speaker 4: your time.
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  Speaker 1: You have an open door here. And what the open
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  Speaker 1: door is. And I want listeners and readers to really
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  Speaker 1: pay attention to this. Your sworn oath, the American oath.
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  Speaker 1: Oh my God, this is a matter. Where did it
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  Speaker 1: come from? Did it come from your heart or is
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  Speaker 1: it something that you learned along your journey?
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  Speaker 4: Oh, well, Arrow, thank you. I'm so glad that touched you.
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  Speaker 4: That came from my heart. You know, this is I
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  Speaker 4: had been invited to a bunch of to speak at
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: a bunch of naturalization ceremonies where immigrants are becoming U.S. citizens.
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  Speaker 4: And if you've ever been to one, you know, you know,
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  Speaker 4: those are incredibly moving, even though they've got a lot
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: of bureaucratic language and it's, you know, some that's boring.
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  Speaker 4: But the heart of it, when those immigrants are called
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  Speaker 4: up one by one, by the country of origin and
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: told the next time they sit down, they will be American.
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  Speaker 4: And they swear this oath. It's super powerful. And I
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: thought after I'd been to a bunch of these, you
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  Speaker 4: know what? We should have something like that for everybody,
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  Speaker 4: not just for immigrants becoming US citizens, but for all
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  Speaker 4: of us, including those of us like me and you
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  Speaker 4: who had the dumb luck to be born here, but
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  Speaker 4: have never particularly thought about what it actually means to
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  Speaker 4: live like a citizen. And here, I don't mean any
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: more you know, having papers and passports, US citizenship as
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  Speaker 4: a documentation status. I mean, what does it mean for
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  Speaker 4: us to show up for each other? And so my
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  Speaker 4: late wife and I, who was the co-founder of Citizen University,
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  Speaker 4: and she was a theater artist, we started riffing on this.
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  Speaker 4: And she was like, her name was Janae Cain. And
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: Janae was like, oh, you know, what we need is
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  Speaker 4: something that has a spirit of kind of a revival,
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: like imagine a revival tent. But instead of being born again,
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  Speaker 4: you're sworn again. And she came up with, you know,
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  Speaker 4: and so we came up with this idea of let's
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  Speaker 4: create an oath That's nonpartisan. That's for everybody. Whatever your
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  Speaker 4: immigration status, however long your family's been here, that's all
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  Speaker 4: about how to show up for each other. And let's
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: create ceremonies around the country where people who've never been
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  Speaker 4: asked to contemplate the content of their citizenship are, in fact, invited.
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  Speaker 4: And it never fails. The people who participate in these
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  Speaker 4: things are brought to tears. It's super moving and super powerful.
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  Speaker 4: And they have been taking place everywhere. Schools, college campuses,
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  Speaker 4: military bases, workplaces everywhere. churches, libraries, and this sworn again,
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  Speaker 4: we call it the sworn again American ceremony. And it's
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  Speaker 4: just a simple, you know, 10 line oath that any
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  Speaker 4: of us can do.
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  Speaker 2: Hey, please don't move. There's more with Eric Liu coming
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  Speaker 2: up next. The name of his book, Live Like a Citizen.
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  Speaker 1: This is one of those books that's going to change
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  Speaker 1: your life because he does it in such a one-on-one
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: relatable way. Live like a citizen. We are back with
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  Speaker 1: Eric Liu. You know what's so interesting about this, Eric,
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  Speaker 1: is that the 99.9% of those that are listening would
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  Speaker 1: have put that in a journal or just jotted it
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: down on a note and shoved it underneath their bed
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: or their desk or put it in the attic. You
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: guys chose to share it. That's right there. A big
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: thing that you talk about in this book, you make
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  Speaker 1: a choice. Now make your choice and affect other people
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  Speaker 1: around you.
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  Speaker 4: I'm so glad you said that because that making of
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  Speaker 4: a choice gets to one of that, you know, the
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  Speaker 4: last chapter of this book is how to commit.
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  Speaker 2: That's it.
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  Speaker 4: You know, it's one thing to feel a thing. It's
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  Speaker 4: one thing to kind of have a sense of what
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  Speaker 4: you could do, but that commitment over and over again.
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  Speaker 4: And it's why even this You know, do you mind, Arrow,
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  Speaker 4: if I just read the sworn again?
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  Speaker 2: Please do. Please do. I want to hear it.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. So it goes like this. I pledge to be
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  Speaker 4: an active American, to show up for others, to govern myself,
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  Speaker 4: to help govern my community. I recommit myself to my
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  Speaker 4: country's creed, to cherish liberty as a responsibility. I pledge
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  Speaker 4: to serve and to push my country, when right, to
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  Speaker 4: be kept right, when wrong, to be set right. wherever
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  Speaker 4: my ancestors and I were born, I claim America and
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  Speaker 4: I pledge to live like a citizen. And we wrote
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: those words because, you know, commitment is a thing that
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  Speaker 4: you got to do. And, you know, it's a matter
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  Speaker 4: of a million everyday little choices, just like you're saying,
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  Speaker 4: like choosing to go from, you know, it could be
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  Speaker 4: good if I whatever to actually doing whatever. But sometimes
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: it helps to have rituals like a sworn again oath,
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  Speaker 4: a moment where a group of us together are joining
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  Speaker 4: in a mutual commitment. And I think it's why when
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  Speaker 4: people get married, when you create that kind of union,
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  Speaker 4: most people don't just say, okay, well, we're married. Let's
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: go to the courthouse, get a piece of paper. They
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: want to do it in front of others. They want
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: to have a ceremony. They want to actually be witnessed
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: literally and figuratively in making these promises to each other.
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  Speaker 4: And the same is true for the union called the
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  Speaker 4: United States is we have to, from time to time,
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  Speaker 4: recommit especially when we don't want to, especially when we're
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: full of doubt about whether this thing is even worth
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: it anymore. And that's what it means for it. That's
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: when it actually matters, making that kind of choice.
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  Speaker 1: Would you be upset with me if I said, can
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  Speaker 1: we put the people of this generation and not just
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: the United States? And the reason why I say that
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: is because I believe that we are a generation, this
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: entire planet. And there are people in Gaza, innocent moms
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  Speaker 1: and dads that had nothing to do with what was
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: going on, but they're sitting over there trying to survive.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: There are people in Ukraine. There are people in Greenland
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  Speaker 1: right now that need to have this sworn commitment to
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  Speaker 1: this generation.
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  Speaker 4: Wow. I love that notion of, you know, committing to
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  Speaker 4: right now. Yes. Yes. And to the people who are
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  Speaker 4: suffering right now and particularly then, of course, to the
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: people yet to come.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: Making a commitment to, well, to use the language of
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: our founders, to our posterity. Right. Yeah. And I think
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: that idea of how do we show up for each
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: other right now and do it in a way that's
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: not just about getting what we want right now, but
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: do it in a way that actually leaves the joint
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: in better shape than we found it. And that joint
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: might be your neighborhood. It might be your town. It
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: might be our country. It might be the state of
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: things on the planet. But, you know, to me, that is,
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: in plain English, the essence of citizenship. Are you leaving
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: the joint in better shape than you found it in? Absolutely.
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: You know, right now, it's hard for us to say
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: yes at a global level, but it is easy for you,
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: wherever you are living, whatever your sense of place and
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: community is, to make a choice to show up in
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: the community at a human scale where you live and
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: try to make it a little better for the people
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: right now.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: The beauty of your heart, Eric, is the fact that
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: you give us that word change and you don't, you
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: kind of, in your own way, you say you don't
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: have to fear it. Just listen to it and participate
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: with it. Because I've had radio station program directors that say,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: if you don't like change, get out of here. And
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: I feel like this generation has done that. I don't
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: like to change, so I'm out of here. And it's like, no, get.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: Back in here. You haven't experienced what this is going
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: to bring us to.
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: Oh, man, we are like, you're my brother from another mother.
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: This way of thinking about life. I mean, one of
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: the other chapters of this book is how to change.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: And you know, and yes, particularly change your mind, but
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: change your heart. And I think, you know, what you're
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: putting your finger on is the fact that so many
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: of the incentives in our lives right now, and again,
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: this comes a lot to social media and that way
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: of being, reward righteous certitude and doubling down on what
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: you thought was right before instead of being open to change,
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: instead of being willing to change, instead of recognizing when
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: you've got to change, right? And in that chapter of
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: the book, I don't just say, change, you should be
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: more flexible. I'm not scolding people. I'm saying, you know what?
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: The way you get to change your mind is actually,
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: it's a three-step process. Number one, know your own mind. Like, actually,
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: don't just fly on autopilot and spit out talking points
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: that you got from your political leader or your neighbor
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: or your parent or whatever. But actually ask yourself, what
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: do I really believe and why? And where did this
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: come from? And do I really think what I, do
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: I believe what I think? Like, Just start questioning that.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: That's number one. But number two, start learning other minds.
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: Get curious about people who see the world differently from you.
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: Actually inhabit the way they see the world. And that
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: might actually shake loose a little something in your righteous certitude.
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: But then the third is maybe the most important arrow,
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: which is to ask, you know, what I say in
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: the book is rebalance your investments. Oh, yeah. And what
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: I mean here is we got to recognize every one
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: of us like, The beliefs that we hold, the opinions
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: that we hold aren't just a matter of rational calculation.
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: They are part of an emotional matrix that has a
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: lot to do with what we literally and figuratively have
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: invested in holding those beliefs. You know, Upton Sinclair famously
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: said that it can be hard to get a man
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: to understand something if his salary depends on not understanding it. And,
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: you know, we sometimes hear that quote. as a line
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: of judgment to kind of say, oh, yeah, those tobacco
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: lobbyists or the people who work for social media companies
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: and tell us everything's fine, like they're just paid to
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: believe that stuff. But I actually invite us to use
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: that quote like a mirror and ask ourselves, what are
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: some of the beliefs that I'm spouting? Not really because
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: I've thought about them and believe them, but because I
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: feel social pressure, because I have friendships invested in it,
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: because I have my career invested in in going along
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: with what these people are saying, or because I, my
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: standing in the community depends on my sounding like I
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: believe this, even if I don't really, right. And, and
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: being able to recognize that. And then, you know, as
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: it is with any financial investments, if you're over, if
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: you're over concentrated in one position, diversify your portfolio, you know,
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: mix it up in a way where you can actually
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: make it less costly for you to change your own mind.
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: And I think I try to break it down these
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: ways so that, People don't get scared of change. Changing
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: your mind, changing your worldview thing each of us can
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: do step by step this way. And being able to be,
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying change for change's sake, but you got
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: to be flexible and limber if you want the body
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: to move. And the same is true of the body politic.
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: When we get rigid and sclerotic like we are right now,
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: we as a country get less healthy politically, civically, and socially.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Well, you put up a big wall inside this book
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: that I would really love to talk about only because
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: I think that through your book, there could be some
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: serious healing going on. And it is a challenge to
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: the readers and the listeners in the way of we
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: all we hear about is authoritarianism.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: OK, spell it for me.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: I want I want listeners to spell it for me
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: without going to spell check. And I want them to
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: be able to give me a definition. And at the
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: same time, I want them to put the word community
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: in there and now go and give me the definition
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: of that. And it's going to change their heart.
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: Why?
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: Because I read about it in your book, because you're
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: not afraid to share authentic conversation in this book.
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: Well, Arrow, you know, one of the things that was
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: so meaningful to me about writing Live Like a Citizen
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: was trying to bring my whole self into it. And
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: that means times when I have failed at these things.
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: That means times when I've experienced setbacks or grief or,
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: you know, loss in different ways and how that's changed
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: the way that I see the world. And You know,
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: I talked about how Citizen University was co-founded by my
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: late wife, Janae Cain. And, you know, she died about
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: three years ago of cancer. And these last three years
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: have just made me so much more attuned to the
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: pain and the loss and the grief that's everywhere around us, man,
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: all over the place in the culture that isn't getting named.
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: It isn't getting addressed, you know, and layer upon layer,
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: you know, that can be the pain of You know,
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: we just celebrated the 25th anniversary of 9-11, but we
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: didn't acknowledge the fact that we've had 20 years of
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: war in Iraq and Afghanistan that ended in kind of
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: a shambles. And we never dealt with COVID in a
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: healthy way. There's so many things that we haven't dealt
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: with as a people. And that's just in our public
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: civic grief, but just the pain that exists there that
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: isn't finding a healthy outlet. Well, what happens to grief
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: that doesn't get addressed? It curdles into grievance, right? And
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: I've tried to be real about this stuff in my
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: own life. as a way to invite people to be
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: real about it in their lives in the way that
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: we live in community together. Because to me, all politics
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: is pain relief. Like one way or another, someone's going
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: to come along and promise you a way to ease
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: your pain. And right now, we are too primed for
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: people coming along to say, the way I'm going to
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: ease your pain is going to make someone else suffer.
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: I'm going to bring that pain to somebody else. And
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: I think there's a deeper way to be. And that
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: begins with facing ourselves and our own pain.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: Well, don't we need people, and I know that the
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: algorithm artist of all time is going to be Taylor Swift,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: but if you really sit back and you listen to
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: her songs and read her lyrics, is that not the
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: pain that we can all relate with and then we
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: can heal from it? I'm not glorifying her because I
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: think she's unbelievable, but at the same time, algorithms is
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: what's made her a superstar. But her words, if we
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: would just take the time, read the words.
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: Read the words, you know, and also read the... read
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: the emotional currents of the people who are devoted to
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: her music. Yes. Right. It's not just, oh, it's a
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: herd mentality. No, they are responding to something where they're
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: feeling heard and seen in their own pain and uncertainty
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: and journeys. And that's a thing that we can learn
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: from and do with each other. You don't have to
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: be Taylor Swift to do that. You just have to
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: be somebody like you or like me, who's decided I'm
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: going to show up and be curious about other people.
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: And I'm going to open my heart in a way
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: that's actually going to be hopefully encourage others to open theirs.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you what, I would pay high dollar to
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: see you talk here in the South inside of a
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: big old Southern church because I swear to God, those
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: hands would be raised in the air.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: They'd all be screaming, amen.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: The worship band would kick in and there's Eric up
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: there going, what the hell's going on here, man?
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: Arrow, not only would I love to do that, I
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: have done versions of that. I mean, I've done talks
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: like this in the basketball arena at the University of Tennessee,
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: you know, just thousands of people, young people there who
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: didn't know that they were going to get what they
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: were going to get from this Chinese American guy from
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: upstate New York who lives in Seattle. But they realized
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: after about three minutes in, like, this is not about
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: what you appear to be. This is about How does
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: the spirit move through you? And I'm not talking in
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: this case about a godly spirit. I mean, a civic spirit.
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: How does the sense that we're all connected and we're
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: all looking for the same thing, which is to be seen,
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: to try to make our lives a little bit better,
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: to be not alone, to feel connected to each other?
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: You know, that's the thing. Our political life is so
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: angry now because everybody is so angry. isolated and cut
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: off from each other. And whether you kind of invite
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: people in, in the way that one could in a
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: big Southern church or invite people in, in the way
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: that you might, you know, in a soup kitchen in
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: North Dakota, whatever it is, is that feeling of, Hey,
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: you're not alone. We're not alone. And we can pull
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: each other through this. And again, I know some of
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: what I'm saying here sounds like it's Kumbaya and it's
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: all this stuff, but part of what this book is
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: about is being real about ways in which we are
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: going to fight. We are going to have differences. We
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: are going to have interests that conflict with one another.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: And we got to be real about that. And I
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: think that's the thing that when we can be real
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: like that, we learn to love each other even more deeply.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: Real quickly, where can people go to find you? I
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: know he gave us 25 minutes and I know I've
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: already traipsed over it. He's going, that damn arrow.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Come on, dude. Where can they go to find you?
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: Well, you can learn more about my work at Citizen
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: University just at our website, citizenuniversity.us. And this book, Live
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: Like a Citizen, is available everywhere. And also on our website,
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: you can find more information both about the book and
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: where I'm speaking all around the country over the next
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: six weeks to share these ideas and listen to other
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: people's stories in response.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: You got to come back to this show anytime in
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: the future, Eric. The door is always going to be
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: open for you, dude.
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: Arrow, I accept that invitation and I can't wait to
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: get to meet you in person. Thank you so much
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: for this conversation.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Will you be brilliant today, okay, sir?
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: You too. You keep doing it.