Latest / The Game Business Show / Can you build a legitimate video game business on prompts? Meta thinks so

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Can you build a legitimate video game business on prompts? Meta thinks so · The Game Business Show

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: It complements the traditional game industry.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it directly sort of steps on top of it or anything.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: I just think this is the modern way of making games.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: People that make games are like circus horses.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: We smell the sawdust and we walk in circles.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like because it's so addicting to make a game,
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: like to make something out of nothing and have people like find joy in playing it.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the most satisfied thing I can think of.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: So like giving that feeling to more people,
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I have a hard time thinking that's nothing but a positive thing.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to The Game Business Show.
• 0:32
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• 0:59
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• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now onto this week's episode.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Last month Meta announced two new tools, Horizon Create and Horizon Studio.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: One is for use on mobile,
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: the other is browser based and these tools enable game makers to turn any idea into
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: a complete 2D or 3D mobile game just using a prompt.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Basically you open the app, you describe what you want to create and it comes to life.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Once people are happy with the game,
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  SPEAKER_01: it can be published to Facebook,
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  SPEAKER_01: to Instagram, or to the Horizon game that Meta runs.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, this is a big conversation point today.
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  SPEAKER_01: On the one hand, these tools are exciting.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: It dramatically lowers the barrier to entry for game making.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Suddenly,
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: more and more people can turn their ideas into something that people can play
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: without the need for coding experience.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's got to be a good thing, right?
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also a challenge for the video game industry.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean for the people whose entire jobs are to code things
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: and build impressive 3D art and to animate stuff?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: What does it mean for the number of games that are going to come to market?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: We already have far too many of them coming out.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And is this stuff actually any good?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Are people actually going to play this stuff or is it just going to suck time out of
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: the market and hurt the entire business?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Meta is of course not the only one doing this.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Roblox as well as prompt based gaming solutions
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  SPEAKER_01: and Google has just announced its playground which is basically the same thing.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought we need to talk about this.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: And why not talk to Meta itself and in particular the company's VP of Horizon, Saks Person.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now Sax knows this world better than anyone.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: He played a senior role looking after Xbox Live Arcade back in the day.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: He also launched Project Spark, which was a game creation title that Microsoft was making.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then after that he became Mojang Studios' chief creative officer
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: and vice president overseeing the Minecraft franchise.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: He then went and joined Epic Games,
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: worked on Unreal Editor for Fortnite and made Lego Fortnite a thing,
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  SPEAKER_01: all before his current role at Meta.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: So when it comes to the power of UGC and lowering the barrier of entry
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: for game developers, there are few people out there as experienced as this man.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: So here he is, check out my conversation with Sax Person.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, Sax.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's a year.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Have you been at Meta now?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: How are you finding it?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: I should count it in days, but that's how it feels.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: I've been there 10 months, 10 months now.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: And how are you finding it?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Am I finding it?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: I have had a fantastic time.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: I came here wanting a fantastic time.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: So to a less degree, you make your own fantastic time.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: But it's been really fun.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think tackling some of the things, it feels like a combination of a very long career.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of the things I've worked on before coming to a head,
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: both in an industry fashion and meta helping bring things about.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's been really fun.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: It does certainly look that way from Minecraft to Fortnite and UEFN and
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: then here we are doing these AI, they're not the word to use, tools.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Is that the right one or platforms with Horizon?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Tools, I would say, like an AI platform tools.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think the AI is the least important part.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's very much what it brings about that we are very focused on,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: that we want more people to be able to make games pretty simple.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: The industry has always had moats.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: When I started, it was certainly access to equipment.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was, I don't know, dev kits to develop on the genesis way back in the time.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then coding became a pretty big moat,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I really think Like one of the big advantages
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: of new coding models is it allows people to make games,
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: including logic, like end to end, like to express themselves.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that's always been what drove me and like through Fortnite,
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: through Minecraft, before that Project Sparked, before that I ran Xbox Live Arcade.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's the, how do you give game makers access to make games and a place to publish it?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's like, it's such a fun problem to tackle.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: My question was going to be, what is the vision for this?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Is that the vision?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the vision is twofold, right?
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: There's a developer vision and there's a player vision.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And the developer vision is very much that.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is allow people that want to express themselves through games to be able
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: to make games,
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  SPEAKER_00: like break down the barriers as much as we can using modern tools,
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: whatever the tools are.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And AI happens to be like an extraordinary accelerator.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: To certain things that have just been very difficult.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: A good game is iteration.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And if we can buy more iteration by making more powerful tools that make it faster,
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  SPEAKER_00: more precise, more people can make the iteration.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think by nature,
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: we should expect more interesting games to come about because it doesn't cost
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  SPEAKER_00: as much to make one.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: You can afford to iterate.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: You can afford to be I don't know, like sort of experimenting.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the developer vision, like allow more people to make games.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: And on the player side,
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: I found so much joy in using the headline that best place to have fun with friends,
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: that really these platforms and ecosystems are not as much
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: about any individual piece of content.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: They're much more about, what do players tell us?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, did you have fun today?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is the biggest predictor of, like, do you have a good platform?
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: Not necessarily, like, is the individual game, like this particular game.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's the, no, this was a place that was welcoming for me and my friends.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: We played ten games, like, sometimes competitive, sometimes hanging out, sometimes ridiculous.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: But, like, the platform had all the content that made all that possible.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's certainly very an interesting space at the moment and there's some big players
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: in there.
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  SPEAKER_01: Obviously,
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  SPEAKER_01: Roblox has been doing this for a bit
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  SPEAKER_01: and it's also introducing these prompt-based things.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Google just announced its playground.
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  SPEAKER_01: What do you think makes the Horizon version unique?
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we're very focused on...
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  SPEAKER_00: And so I think the journey we're on is we've spent
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: since I joined 10 months ago really thinking through how do you make games,
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  SPEAKER_00: like break down into all the atomic components of what makes a good game,
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: like what makes a game maker be able to make the game they want to make.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then recomposed it all again agentically.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then what's the differentiator is that we have, we kind of build it all from scratch.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: We don't sit on 20 years of very opinionated code bases and licensees.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: We sit on an engine and code base that's made for this,
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  SPEAKER_00: like that's made to very quickly recompose,
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  SPEAKER_00: make the game you want to make and publish very fast.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one side of it.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, how do you make the game?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: we just think we have the right toolset for it to make meaningful games that have
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  SPEAKER_00: the iterations, that this is not a one-shot.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: You just kind of make a fun, I don't know, vignette of a game.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, these are games as I've always played games,
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: and the key to that is continually making sure that the creator is in the center.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: The tools surround you, but this is not about a clever prompt.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's about being able to communicate and make the thing you want iterate towards
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: the result you want, and then finally being able to publish.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one side of it.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: The other side is distribution.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Meta understands scale.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's one of the really neat things about being here is it's a company
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  SPEAKER_00: that doesn't blink when you say a billion people at this thing, why not two?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's kind of the type of company here, right?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the other part of it is I really want to spend my effort building
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: a gaming ecosystem platform that is welcoming for all,
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: not just the people that That sort of is well served through like a fortnight
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: or what have you.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: But the like the billions of people that do play games that they would love to do it
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  SPEAKER_00: in a fricking this fashion to get the game that they want to play with friends.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the distribution side is one of it.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: And from a tooling perspective,
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: we're approaching it very It's very similar to how I would have written
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: an engine back in the 90s when I worked on Messiah and Sacrifice and sort of
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: that matrix back in the day where my job was to make an engine that could allow
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: a game creator to make the game they wanted.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: I never made the game.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: I made the thing that made the thing.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it feels very similar to how we're approaching it.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see this as a business opportunity for professional developers to be looking at?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Or is this more about what you're just talking about there,
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: which is people that perhaps Never thought they could make a game
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: or even people maybe that do make games,
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: but doing a bit on the side or having a bit of a fun project or experimenting
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: with stuff.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see it as a business opportunity or is it more for the other thing?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's absolutely a business opportunity.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a business opportunity for a AAA team to switch to this platform right now?
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a particular flavor to it that we'll start with,
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: but it's still a business opportunity.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: I spend a lot of time with sort of like new forming teams
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: that are making games like indie teams.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think very much my pride lies in can I inspire people to take that first step,
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: make that first sort of level and get the group together that's going
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: to make this magical game.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: And those are very much business opportunities.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like we should measure ourselves in our ability for people to be entrepreneurs on the platform.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: And in many ways, I think it complements the traditional game industry.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it directly sort of steps on top of it or anything.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: I just think this is the modern way of making games.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's my controversial opinion,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: is faster iterations,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: closer to your community, and a higher tolerance for experimentation.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's that controversial.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: I know perhaps that some people it is,
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: but I've been doing this show for a while and that's a regular thing
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: that gets brought up.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Not necessarily related to what you're building here,
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: but just generally fast iteration and using tools to do that.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting because I was going to ask,
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: do you see it as a threat to the traditional business or is it something
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: that might sit alongside it?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess you've answered it there,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: but do you see it having an impact upon the wider business?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: It has a measurable impact today.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Where do people spend their time playing games?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the headline I said,
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: best place to have fun with friends, is what defines the most successful games.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: And UGC is a big, big part of it.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think user-generated content has this It's not a great word for what it really is.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: These are smaller developers making games that people love playing and play
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: for billions of hours.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a whole generation growing up that this is just part of how you play games.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a really important expression.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a really important new generation of developers that are showing sort
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: of a modern take on how to make games and what a game should do in order
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: to be successful.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: From my perspective, it still complements the traditional game making.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: I have the same respect for traditional games that I've always had
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: that are more crafted for,
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: in many ways,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: for the team and sort of as a statement versus user-generated content
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: that often is much more about measuring yourselves in how do people feel
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: when they play your game,
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: like the direct communication between community and game maker.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: I do business journalism,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: so I often talk about its impact on the business sense
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: and how much time it sucks out of the market and all this.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, this isn't just a business, it's an art form.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And most other art forms,
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: like we encourage,
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: we like it when everybody's making music and everybody can paint a picture
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: and everybody, you know, I would say everybody can, everyone can, right?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just the ability to express ourselves and share with each other our stories
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: and our things.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something that all the big art forms allow you to do as well.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: not everybody can necessarily become a professional artist,
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: but everyone can, most people can paint.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: But often it's not even the goal.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: The goal is just for 10 people to like what you make and that's exciting.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think Spotify is a controversial subject because they ruin the music industry
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: or did they open it up for everybody to become a musician?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think in the balance, both things are true.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think we can do better than that.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think the games industry has They've largely done pretty good on preserving
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: the premium,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: very defined market of AAA and the validity of a Roblox,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: Fortnite,
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Minecraft,
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: user-intimated content that powers billions and billions of hours,
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: and in many ways,
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: For many years, I've been the fastest growing part of the game industry.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: In linear entertainment,
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: in the age before YouTube,
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: the idea of making films was something that was quite prohibitive to most people,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: and now it's something that anyone with a phone can do.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: But not everyone on the phone can be Steven Spielberg or Christopher Nolan.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: But we can play around with it and
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: share things.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's fantastic.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: When I grew up, I had no way to make games.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: I knew I wanted to make games.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: I had no idea.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in Denmark,
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: and it's just kind of like a couple of lucky events,
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: and I end up in a place where I go,
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: oh, these are the people that make games, and I became part of that community.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: It was awesome.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: But it also was so random.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think the idea of access very much like when I was on Minecraft for seven years.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: It was just so empowering to feel like kids growing up on Minecraft,
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: how they found ways to express themselves and how all of
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: a sudden they found huge audiences and before they knew it,
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: they were running a business.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's fantastic, something very unique to gaming.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: How do you see it from a monetization point of view?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: What are you thinking?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: Is it microtransactions?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is it ads?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: How do you see that sort of playing out?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think all of it.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think it depends on where you are.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like they say, there's a realistic thing called cost to serve.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like what does it cost to put this game in your hand wherever you are in the world
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: and what's your ability to pay for that, right?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: And in some locales,
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: ads are by far the most realistic way that you can have a business like that
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: where you can share proceeds with the creator and all the things that happens
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: on YouTube.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, I think microtransactions and download-to-own.dto are great business models.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And subscriptions are good catch-all for everything.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: I just think we should be open to all of it.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think the problem is the business model ever.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's always the disclosure of it and the How is that integrated into the platform?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Much more so than the individual transaction, if you know what I mean.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: I also think video games have got so broad now and there's so many people,
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: different people play games and different backgrounds.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: They're different monetization strategies,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: also different audiences and depends on the game you make, I guess.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, again,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: we should make a platform that is Where the platform promise is a platform
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: that has integrity,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: that has quality,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: that has a way for you to find the content you want and match the content
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: that you want, and a way for your friends to be part of that same ecosystem.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And from a monetization perspective,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: just focus on what is the most realistic way for those two things to add up to
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: a good business.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: So how, I mean, I don't even know if this is a goal.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to ask, how can you entice developers to Horizon?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, why choose this over UEFN, which you know very well, or Roblox?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: Is it better terms?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Do you make a pitch or is it the distribution?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, or is that not something that you think about?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do think about it.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: I should.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: I do want us to have like a differentiated offering, of course.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think the most What do I think,
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: from a developer perspective, is the most interesting thing about our platform?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: One is that it's targeted on mobile, like the place where everybody is.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's unopinionated from a platform perspective, meaning there's not a particular look.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: The character is your look, whatever you decide, whatever you do.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: The character is your character.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: The environment is your environment.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: The style is your style.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we're very welcoming to ship to the widest possible audience the thing,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: exactly the thing you want to make in the style you want to make it.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And there's nothing quite like that.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like Roblox is a very opinionated Artistic perspective,
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Minecraft, the same thing, Fortnite, the same thing.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Fortnite and mobile, that's not at scale.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Roblox is certainly at scale,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: but it's hard to imagine sort of a Like a rich artistic look,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: like compatible with how Roblox went about building the engine.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a part of it is we're trying to fade into the background to provide
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: the components for the games to be the center and meta in many ways just to be
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: the platform that helps the games get there.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Similar to YouTube.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: YouTube is not opinionated about what content they have.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: They serve the content that matches up with the player's interest.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, I see.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: And from an IP perspective,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: so that's the other differentiator I think for us is if you're in IP,
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: then this is a good place to be.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can make the thing That represents your IP accurately in the way
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: that you would want to make it distributed to the widest possible audience and
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: with very, very little friction and low development cost.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's just a basic value prop.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you're an IP or you're another creator,
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: like an Instagram creator,
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: if you want content for your channel,
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: you can now develop content for your channel that is exactly how you would want it
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: for your channel without us pushing the content in any particular direction.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: This might be a naive question,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: but when it's sort of like an IP,
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: how do you protect, make sure the right people are using it?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: And how does that?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I think in principle,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: there's a lot of safeguards in place for any platform,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: honestly, to protect intellectual property.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: You can't operate a platform if you don't observe all the basic safeguards
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: for preserving intellectual property.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: There are things you can do above and beyond that.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: My goal is that this will be a first-rate place for that.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: So my defined goal is to go and make this a great place for IP.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because I really think that matters from a player perspective.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: You want the legitimate experience that feels exactly like the thing.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: I worked a lot with LEGO and Star Wars before in my past,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: and I certainly have an appreciation for how precise a franchise feels
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: that their IP needs to be represented.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Making a platform that's good for that is a big deal for me.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to ask as well,
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: maybe it's linked to that,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: is that how confident are you in the safety measures and the age review processes
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: and that it's capable enough?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I know how important that is, you know, if you're seeing Roblox and stuff like that.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Are you confident in the tools you've got there and the protections you've got there?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm very confident.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think the industry is growing up and we are like any company,
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: like to operate a global platform, like really have to be on the A game.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: The global regulatory landscape is not the easiest to navigate, but it's there for a reason.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: I really think for us to develop trust long-term is directly proportional to
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: the integrity of the platform, both for me, content and age.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: And from all perspectives, business practices.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's a very defined focus of ours.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we're fortunate in the sense that Meta is as keenly aware as any other company,
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: like how to do this right.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we're piggybacking on that.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: I remember when Horizon was a VR thing and we had VR developers on this show tell me
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: that,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: there were so many Horizon games on the Meta store
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: that it was causing discoverability challenges for them.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously this in theory is going to be a lot of games being made.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: How are you approaching discoverability?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know perhaps it's some of the wider Meta ecosystem here,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: but how are you approaching discoverability challenges that will inevitably arise?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think at the heart of every platform is its ability to match content to players.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think Meta, if there's something Meta is really good at, it's that.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: That is on Instagram and Facebook.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Our ranking systems are just very mature.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not dissimilar to that.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or ranking or matching,
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: whatever you want to call it,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: is key to a whole lot of solving a whole bunch of issues about,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: yeah, but what about low quality content?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that gets spotted really quickly if you have the right signals in a way
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: that that's not what we put in front of you when you go onto the platform.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: The ratings challenge are the same as Vanilla Platform.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: The specific thing around VR that you're mentioning in the VR store
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: and what have you, I can't comment on that.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't there.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: I can comment on the,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: modern ranking algorithms,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: and AI is a big part of that,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: allows you to be much closer to having individual recommendations
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: for every player sort of based on all the different factors
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: about what you're playing and all that stuff.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I feel pretty confident that good content will find the right players
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: because that's what I've seen before in these ecosystems.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: But it is like one of those things that it's like a daily,
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, there's something you should agonize over daily.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Are you featuring the right content?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Did the right content surface to the top?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Did any good content not get the chance it needed?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Those things are,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: for any good platform, what a big part of the intellectual horsepower goes towards.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Sachs, I'm conscious of the time.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: I know you've got other important things to do, changing the games industry.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I'll ask one more question.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you see this ending up in, I don't know, let's say 10 years.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you see the end goal for this?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: The end goal meaning for Horizon or the game industry?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe this whole movement.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe end goal is the wrong word because I don't think anything ever really ends.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: But let's say 10 years.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think every year we take more steps to remove more moats to democratize the act
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: of making games.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: I have no illusion everybody's going to make a game,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: but I do agonize over like the people that really have a game in them,
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: do they have the option?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I think 10 years from now,
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: I want to imagine that the making and publishing of games are democratized to
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: a point that the best games can find the platform and an audience and what have you.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of like I think 10 years from now,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: humans are still making games like they've always been making games.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: 10 years from now, a good idea is still a good idea.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: 10 years from now,
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: you're iterating on your game for six months on a particular mechanic
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: because you really feel this is important.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: We'll still feel the same, but the tools surrounding it will just make it faster, easier.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: More fun to measure, like that sort of thing.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think there'll be a whole new category of games where the agent sits in
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: the runtime,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: which I really think what energizes me is that,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: is I want to bring about a way that gaming is not just a different way to make
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: a game, but it's a different way to play a game also.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: And we're just getting to that.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: We show some of that at Connect,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: but from my perspective,
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: that's where we can really bring innovation to the game industry is
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: to allow reasoning to influence how the game develops.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's exciting.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think a couple of years ago,
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was probably one of those people that's a little bit, you know, snippy around.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I was or wasn't, but maybe I was around sort of AI made games.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then it was a Christmas and one of my wife's cousins, a young lad, must have been 12.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: And he knew I was into games and he wanted to show me his game.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: And he, it was a wipeout clone, right?
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it was, and it was very basic and it didn't run quite right.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so much of it was AI, these AI generated logos and so many elements to it.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: And, and then I was quite skeptical when I saw it, well,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: when he went before he showed it to me,
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: but when I saw it, I thought it was wonderful that he got to make this.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: He was so proud of it.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: And all the family were sitting there playing it together with him.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, sure.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't even know what Wipeout was, by the way.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: I said, oh, a bit like Wipeout.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: And he gave me a look.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: You're dating yourself.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: But dad didn't say zero.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: You don't know Psygnosis?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And, but I thought it was a wonderful little moment actually.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually changed my tune.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it's great that he was able
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: to make
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: that.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was able to make websites when I was 13 using drag and drop like systems.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure people with HTML experience were looking at me with a scowl and I,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: and it's like, but that's, that's where we started.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm, I'm hopefully that's, that's what we'll see.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: That feeling that your nephew said,
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: that feeling he had making that game,
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: in my opinion, no doubt he wants to repeat that feeling.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: But we said people that make games are like circus horses.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: We smell the sawdust and we walk in circles because it's so addicting to make
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: a game, to make something out of nothing and have people find joy in playing it.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's the most satisfied thing I can think of.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: So giving that feeling to more people,
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: I have a hard time thinking that that's nothing but a positive thing.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm looking forward to seeing all of this develop in the future.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, thank you so much for your time.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: It was awesome.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's all we have time for today.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you to Saks for joining us.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: It will be a topic that's going to run and run and run and I'll be looking to talk
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: to some other people involved in these projects in future episodes.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking of future episodes,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: if you want to make sure you don't miss one,
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: you can go to thegamebusiness.com,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: put in your email address and every single time we do a new edition,
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: you'll receive an email from us.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: We also have a paid subscription tier because we do an episode on a Monday
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: which is called Here's the Drink.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's only available to paid subscribers.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: So if you'd like to pay to support The Game Business,
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: that's how you can do it by going to thegamebusiness.com.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: However, that's it for me today.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, thank you for tuning in.