Latest / HEAVY Music Interviews / Two Decades Of Dominance With ZOLTAN BATHORY From FIVE FINGER DEATH PUNCH
Transcript
- 0:00Speaker 1: It's this is no time from five Thing in Death Punch.
- 0:04Speaker 1: We just got to a record deal yesterday, so we
- 0:06Speaker 1: are a brand new band. Nice to say. Yeah, we hopefully,
- 0:12Speaker 1: you know, we play a lot of shows and hopefully
- 0:15Speaker 1: we get a deal. You know.
- 0:16Speaker 2: So I like your confidence, mate, I like it.
- 0:20Speaker 1: I know, I know I'm trying hard that. You know,
- 0:23Speaker 1: we're the biggest unknown band in the world, so hopefully
- 0:26Speaker 1: we'll change it soon.
- 0:28Speaker 2: Fantastic, Matt, thanks for joining us today. That was a
- 0:30Speaker 2: fantastic introduction.
- 0:33Speaker 1: And the band calles five at that Punch. I know
- 0:35Speaker 1: it's a crazy name, but hey, all the good names
- 0:38Speaker 1: were taken, so we went to this one.
- 0:42Speaker 2: Fantastic. So Five Things and Death Punch release twenty years
- 0:46Speaker 2: Best of Five Thing Death Punch Best Of Volume two
- 0:48Speaker 2: on October twenty fourth. That's a bloody mouthful, mate, Do
- 0:51Speaker 2: you mind if I it's called a volume two from
- 0:53Speaker 2: here on here?
- 0:55Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is volume two.
- 0:56Speaker 2: Yes, you released volume two on twenty fourth, right, say
- 1:01Speaker 2: how you feel about it? It's pretty close.
- 1:03Speaker 1: Now, yeah, it's coming. You know. It's it's kind of
- 1:06Speaker 1: crazy because by doing this, you know, like low exercise
- 1:10Speaker 1: of recording these songs, we got to sort of revisit
- 1:14Speaker 1: or past, you know, because usually, you know, we are
- 1:17Speaker 1: kind of a forward facing band, like what's next, where
- 1:19Speaker 1: we're going, what's the next thing you're doing. So it's
- 1:22Speaker 1: not really that we're looking at the rear view mirrors
- 1:26Speaker 1: so much, you know. And so this was kind of crazy,
- 1:30Speaker 1: you know, looking back, like man twenty years you know,
- 1:33Speaker 1: if I, if I had to put some money on
- 1:35Speaker 1: it and bat, I probably would bet against us, you know, yeah,
- 1:41Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I would have lost, right because you know,
- 1:44Speaker 1: not many bands make it that long. You know, it's
- 1:46Speaker 1: it's just what it is. It's difficult, and a lot
- 1:49Speaker 1: of bands just you know, just don't make it this long.
- 1:52Speaker 1: And from all bands, this was like, you know, it
- 1:56Speaker 1: was a fire, tornado or whatever you want, the last
- 1:59Speaker 1: twenty years. So it's actually pretty amazing that we hear
- 2:02Speaker 1: we did nine record and a bunch of you know,
- 2:05Speaker 1: a bunch of hits. It's it's it's kind of crazy,
- 2:08Speaker 1: it is.
- 2:08Speaker 2: And as the term and the title suggested, because this
- 2:11Speaker 2: is a follow up, the best of Volume Money came
- 2:13Speaker 2: out earlier this year, so you can see them as
- 2:16Speaker 2: companion pass or as two separate bodies of why.
- 2:19Speaker 1: Well it's like, here's here's the thing. You know, we
- 2:22Speaker 1: obviously it's kind of out there. Everybody knows, like why
- 2:25Speaker 1: we really did it? You know, first and foremost or
- 2:27Speaker 1: twentyeth anywherey was coming up. So we were gonna do
- 2:30Speaker 1: something for the fans anyway, and you know, this was
- 2:33Speaker 1: the perfect lemon that was handed to us and we
- 2:36Speaker 1: so we made lemonade right, you know, the label legally.
- 2:41Speaker 1: So they did do anything criminal, like they sold the Masters.
- 2:44Speaker 1: It happens all the time in the recording industry. There's
- 2:47Speaker 1: nothing surprising. It's nothing nw just most artists are quiet
- 2:51Speaker 1: about it and they just take it. And when you
- 2:53Speaker 1: know Taylor Swift, it happened to Taylor Swift. She decided, like,
- 2:57Speaker 1: you know what, I'm just gonna really record my whole catalog.
- 3:00Speaker 1: And it worked because she has a really loyal families
- 3:04Speaker 1: and so that was the idea. Well, we also have
- 3:07Speaker 1: a really loyal family, so why don't we do that.
- 3:10Speaker 1: It gives us a chance to revisit those songs, and
- 3:13Speaker 1: this way we can give something to the fence. So
- 3:16Speaker 1: that's how this happened us. For how do we pick
- 3:18Speaker 1: the songs? It was fairly easy. It's it's been always
- 3:21Speaker 1: the people bad, you know, So we just literally looked
- 3:24Speaker 1: at like, okay, it's not even about the hits. We
- 3:26Speaker 1: do have thirty top ten hits, so we could just
- 3:28Speaker 1: do those thirty songs, but it was about what what
- 3:31Speaker 1: are the songs that it's mostly what are what are
- 3:34Speaker 1: the songs that are the most important defense and there
- 3:39Speaker 1: is data like whatever songs they stream the most, So
- 3:43Speaker 1: we just literally looked at Spotify, we looked at Apple
- 3:47Speaker 1: Music and all the streaming services, and we could see that, Okay,
- 3:50Speaker 1: these are the thirty songs that the fans love the most,
- 3:53Speaker 1: so let's do those thirty. That's how that's how simportant.
- 3:56Speaker 2: Was Yeah, no, so it is very fair driven. But
- 3:59Speaker 2: you guys have all it's been a very fan driven band.
- 4:01Speaker 2: But out of the two Volume one and Volume two,
- 4:03Speaker 2: which one personally, do you think is got the best songs?
- 4:06Speaker 2: Which one's got your favorites on it?
- 4:08Speaker 1: Well, that's that's kind of you know, the question like
- 4:10Speaker 1: which which kids of yours?
- 4:15Speaker 2: I've got two of them so and I feel you pain.
- 4:17Speaker 1: Right, so exactly so which one is it? Volume one?
- 4:21Speaker 1: Volume tear of your kids?
- 4:24Speaker 2: They standing behind me with a baseball bat, so I've
- 4:26Speaker 2: got to say base, I.
- 4:28Speaker 1: See what I mean. So I'm gonna say the same thing. Right.
- 4:31Speaker 1: It's hard to decide, you know, hard to decide, but
- 4:34Speaker 1: but each record has amazing moments, and both record have
- 4:39Speaker 1: a song that has a feature. The first one had
- 4:42Speaker 1: Maria Brink right, and that song became a number one
- 4:45Speaker 1: song and it's made a lot of sense. A lot
- 4:47Speaker 1: of people don't know this, but in this moment and
- 4:49Speaker 1: Maria and fifing in that punch our our history is
- 4:55Speaker 1: kind of intervined, you know, because this is again not
- 4:59Speaker 1: many people know this, but there was a band in
- 5:01Speaker 1: Los Angeles that.
- 5:03Speaker 3: Was a local band that was fairly big locally but
- 5:08Speaker 3: never really made it. But locally they were an alley band.
- 5:12Speaker 3: And when this band fell apart, alf of that band
- 5:15Speaker 3: became in this moment and the other half came to
- 5:17Speaker 3: fiping in that bunch.
- 5:19Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, yeah. So and then they got the
- 5:22Speaker 1: recorded I think with Central Media. Then we got ours,
- 5:25Speaker 1: and we sort of grew in the same time. They
- 5:27Speaker 1: were heavier, so they kind of went into that direction.
- 5:30Speaker 1: We had radio songs of the band obviously blew up,
- 5:33Speaker 1: but you know, we toured together, We took them out
- 5:37Speaker 1: on the road many times, so this is this is
- 5:39Speaker 1: and she already been featured in the song before. Also
- 5:42Speaker 1: we have the same producer, you know, and also they
- 5:45Speaker 1: record in Las Vegas, so we have a lot of
- 5:47Speaker 1: these common elements, you know, that made all the sense
- 5:50Speaker 1: in the world, Like, oh, it has to be Maria.
- 5:52Speaker 1: It's a recapable last twenty years, so it should be Maria.
- 5:55Speaker 1: And on volume two it is baby Metal Suit from
- 6:00Speaker 1: Baby Metal Singing or Not, which is amazing. First and foremost,
- 6:04Speaker 1: imagine right now the song is already in top ten
- 6:07Speaker 1: in America. So that's like, oh, imagine a song on
- 6:11Speaker 1: mainstream rock radio in America that half of the song
- 6:14Speaker 1: is in Japanese. I don't think that ever happened. It
- 6:17Speaker 1: shouldn't happen, but it does, right, Yeah, so you know
- 6:20Speaker 1: what I mean, Like it's kind of like the I
- 6:22Speaker 1: Think we broke that, you know that the tradition with that.
- 6:26Speaker 1: It became a number one song on I think the
- 6:28Speaker 1: Japanese iTunes and whatnot, and it is already in the
- 6:31Speaker 1: top ten in America. And even though they are a
- 6:34Speaker 1: metal band and we are kind of a hard rock
- 6:36Speaker 1: metal band, we some of the fan base overlap but
- 6:40Speaker 1: we have very different fans, and it's amazing to see
- 6:43Speaker 1: that we got such an influx of baby Metal fans
- 6:48Speaker 1: coming in. I see the comments, half of them in Japanese.
- 6:52Speaker 1: But again, we've got a lot of people coming because
- 6:55Speaker 1: they never heard of five thing in that one too.
- 6:57Speaker 1: That's why I say we got the biggest unknown men right.
- 7:00Speaker 1: And the same way, our fans are not necessarily familiar
- 7:04Speaker 1: with baby metal, so now they're like, oh, what is this, man,
- 7:07Speaker 1: let me check it out, so you know, so you know, right,
- 7:11Speaker 1: in a way it worked out for both bands. Bands
- 7:13Speaker 1: and the song. From that perspective, the song of Finally
- 7:18Speaker 1: is complete in some way, at least for me. You know,
- 7:21Speaker 1: when I even writes the lyrics, he it does if
- 7:24Speaker 1: you ask him, and it happens when it times if
- 7:26Speaker 1: you e when you run into him and ask him
- 7:28Speaker 1: what he wrote any songs about. He's not gonna tell you.
- 7:32Speaker 1: That's his thing is. He's not gonna tell you because
- 7:34Speaker 1: this is what and you know what, I agree with this,
- 7:36Speaker 1: He goes, listen, I wrote the lyrics. If I tell
- 7:39Speaker 1: you what the lyrics is about, then I petrified it.
- 7:43Speaker 1: I sort of solidified it what it means because I'm
- 7:47Speaker 1: the singer. So he's like, every fan, everybody listens to
- 7:52Speaker 1: your music, will hear it the way they needed to
- 7:55Speaker 1: hear it. You understand it the way you needed to
- 7:57Speaker 1: understand it. This is my song the person to everyone
- 8:00Speaker 1: who listens to them, right, because you can interpret what
- 8:04Speaker 1: it means in many ways, and you always hear what
- 8:06Speaker 1: you need to hear at the time. And he's like,
- 8:08Speaker 1: I would rob the fans from this. You know, this
- 8:11Speaker 1: feeling of this is my song. This speaks to me,
- 8:14Speaker 1: if you know. So when he came in with this
- 8:17Speaker 1: song the lyrics, I already when we wrote the music part,
- 8:21Speaker 1: I already had this idea like this is like an
- 8:23Speaker 1: epic you know, battle soundtrack, you know. And then he
- 8:27Speaker 1: came back he felt the same, so he wrote the
- 8:28Speaker 1: lyrics about the end. You know, it's never overuntil it's over.
- 8:32Speaker 1: Let the r spy you can take it metaphorical lyrics
- 8:35Speaker 1: literally as well. Right, So I saw this epic battle
- 8:39Speaker 1: like especially being a marchin arrist I just you know,
- 8:41Speaker 1: and I'm really you know, I'm a judo guy. I'm
- 8:44Speaker 1: really into Japanese culture. And then you know the bushido
- 8:47Speaker 1: the way of the summarise I saw a dot in
- 8:49Speaker 1: my head. So when it came to like, who are
- 8:51Speaker 1: we going to do the feature, become like, yes, this
- 8:54Speaker 1: has to be a Japanese you know, so that's kind
- 8:57Speaker 1: of what I came to get perfect.
- 9:00Speaker 2: Volume two also features live versions of Watching Away, Wrong
- 9:04Speaker 2: Side of Heaven and Jacqueline Hyde. I think it's a
- 9:07Speaker 2: great idea for you to put the live tracks on
- 9:09Speaker 2: the best of album as well, because a big part
- 9:11Speaker 2: of your history is live. Like you thre a dynamic
- 9:13Speaker 2: live band, So to be able to put that mix
- 9:16Speaker 2: it in with your fan favorites.
- 9:18Speaker 1: It's the bloody got idea.
- 9:19Speaker 2: It's given people an overall taste of the band.
- 9:22Speaker 1: You know what. And here's the thing. The reason we
- 9:24Speaker 1: did that exactly like this. We were talking to a
- 9:26Speaker 1: lot of people like you just said it right, I
- 9:28Speaker 1: heard this conversation. Then I have this conversation many times
- 9:32Speaker 1: the fans with media, everybody's like, man, you guys are
- 9:35Speaker 1: live band. You've gotta have a live record. And it's
- 9:39Speaker 1: interesting because I'm not a fan of live recordings, you know,
- 9:42Speaker 1: because because I always yeah, like I'm just not because
- 9:46Speaker 1: I always use it. When you go to the studio,
- 9:48Speaker 1: you work on the songs, every crack of the guitar,
- 9:51Speaker 1: every little noise, everything matters, right, So you're putting together
- 9:56Speaker 1: your automaticulously every single thing in there. So it's kind
- 9:59Speaker 1: of like, you know, in the kitchen, you're cooking a
- 10:01Speaker 1: little bit of this, a little bit of that, right.
- 10:03Speaker 1: I like that process, and that's that's what I love about,
- 10:07Speaker 1: you know, treating music. How you put this together. Now,
- 10:11Speaker 1: once that is done, that's when you take it and
- 10:14Speaker 1: perform it live, you know, And once it's alive, it's
- 10:19Speaker 1: first and promise you perform in a song. Second, It's
- 10:22Speaker 1: like there's an energy exchange between the fans and the band.
- 10:26Speaker 1: You know. This is why live show is never going
- 10:28Speaker 1: to go away. There's nothing you can compare to that
- 10:31Speaker 1: that crowd and everybody's feeling the same thing in the
- 10:33Speaker 1: same time. That belongs to a live show. And I
- 10:36Speaker 1: always thought like, well, you know, live recordings, even the
- 10:40Speaker 1: best ones, you know, can give you a picture, but
- 10:43Speaker 1: can really bring that, you know what I mean, That
- 10:45Speaker 1: energy is not gonna be there or somewhat you know,
- 10:49Speaker 1: but we are a good live band. I mean, I
- 10:52Speaker 1: think that's why that's why the band blew up, because
- 10:54Speaker 1: people even if people the haters and may series. You know,
- 10:57Speaker 1: the bigger you get, the more of those you got.
- 11:00Speaker 1: We don't give a shit, you know, but we converted
- 11:03Speaker 1: a lot of those people come to the shows, people
- 11:05Speaker 1: come to festivals, and then while I have to suffer
- 11:08Speaker 1: to this five thing here whatever thing, you know, and
- 11:11Speaker 1: then they see us live and they're like, holy shit,
- 11:13Speaker 1: you know, because you know we're alive then. And so
- 11:19Speaker 1: even though you can't really capture that, but all the fans,
- 11:22Speaker 1: profession everybody says like, man, you guys gonna put some
- 11:24Speaker 1: of those And so that's kind of how it happened.
- 11:27Speaker 1: And and here's why it's easy for us. So we
- 11:31Speaker 1: do a thing called virtual stuntrack, which means every single
- 11:36Speaker 1: show is recorded and the very next day when they
- 11:39Speaker 1: roll into the new arena, stadium, whatever, we play. Right,
- 11:42Speaker 1: every one of those spaces have different acoustics, right, so
- 11:46Speaker 1: what happens Our crew recorded that through the previous day
- 11:51Speaker 1: and so exactly how we sound like, and then they're
- 11:54Speaker 1: gonna push it through the speakers as last it goes
- 11:58Speaker 1: in this new place whatever that this is right, and yeah,
- 12:02Speaker 1: see what I mean because because they recorded the instrument directly,
- 12:07Speaker 1: so now the sound engineers and everyone can hear and
- 12:10Speaker 1: the monetary engineers can hear it how it sounds in
- 12:12Speaker 1: this new venue. So that's how we sound checked. That's
- 12:15Speaker 1: how it sounds so good really because we literally, yeah,
- 12:18Speaker 1: this is what we do. So because of that, we
- 12:22Speaker 1: have all these live recordings because every show is recording, right,
- 12:25Speaker 1: So it was actually easy for us like, okay, well
- 12:27Speaker 1: grab some of those and put it on the record.
- 12:30Speaker 2: That's fantastic.
- 12:32Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the trick, right.
- 12:34Speaker 2: You also chose to re record the songs on the albums,
- 12:37Speaker 2: not just remix them or remaster them. Like it creates
- 12:39Speaker 2: a lot of extra work for you guys as a band,
- 12:41Speaker 2: so all the thought process by like I'm sure people
- 12:44Speaker 2: would have accepted just being remarstered, but you've gone that
- 12:47Speaker 2: step above and re recorded them all. It's great.
- 12:50Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so the two things, like you know,
- 12:53Speaker 1: as I said, it's it's fairly common in the recording
- 12:56Speaker 1: industry where the record label sells the masters of bands
- 12:59Speaker 1: and whatnot, and and it's it's it's a thing that happens.
- 13:03Speaker 1: You know, nothing criminal about it. It's just not true,
- 13:07Speaker 1: but you know, but it happens. And and so for us,
- 13:09Speaker 1: you know, we were like, okay, well that's that's your
- 13:13Speaker 1: move on the chessboard. So now this is our move.
- 13:16Speaker 1: So we're going to just re record the whole catalog
- 13:18Speaker 1: and you know, we can give something to the fans
- 13:21Speaker 1: for the twentieth anniversary, you know. And and we got
- 13:26Speaker 1: to revisit these songs. Some of them changed a little
- 13:29Speaker 1: bit live, you know, some even some lyrics change, so
- 13:31Speaker 1: we got to re record it today. Another thing is
- 13:35Speaker 1: when when you put put put a compilation together of
- 13:39Speaker 1: you know, fifteen songs per record, right, every one of
- 13:43Speaker 1: those songs, right, came from a different record, and every
- 13:47Speaker 1: record sounds a little bit different. I mean, now, imagine
- 13:51Speaker 1: that you took all these songs and recorded with the
- 13:54Speaker 1: same sound, so it looks it sounds like one record
- 13:56Speaker 1: versus you know, taking it from different places.
- 14:00Speaker 2: Makes sense then, like you said, right, like some of
- 14:03Speaker 2: the songs have been changed a little bit here and there,
- 14:05Speaker 2: but those changes, like did you rehearse those changes and
- 14:08Speaker 2: planned before you went in the studio or a lot
- 14:09Speaker 2: of them sort of jam down in the studio.
- 14:12Speaker 1: So no, I mean, just we just did it how
- 14:14Speaker 1: we would do it live. Because here's the thing. When
- 14:16Speaker 1: you write the song. You're cooking you know you again,
- 14:19Speaker 1: what you put in the song, every little thing. When
- 14:22Speaker 1: you really record something, you performing. We already wrote these
- 14:25Speaker 1: songs and some of them we play live a thousand times, right,
- 14:29Speaker 1: So it's a different energy. You're going into the studio
- 14:33Speaker 1: with okay, like we have to you know, build something.
- 14:36Speaker 1: We go to the studio with, well, we play these songs.
- 14:38Speaker 1: We live with these songs for some of them with
- 14:41Speaker 1: fifteen twenty years, right, So you're performing them and that
- 14:45Speaker 1: has a different energy. In fact, I would say this
- 14:49Speaker 1: if I'm listening to the recordings of this too, you know,
- 14:52Speaker 1: these two greatest hits.
- 14:54Speaker 3: It it isn't live, but it has a little bit
- 14:57Speaker 3: of a raw or live feeling.
- 15:01Speaker 1: Than the previous studio records because we performed this, you
- 15:04Speaker 1: know what I mean. Because it wasn't because as I said,
- 15:07Speaker 1: we lived with these songs for so long and some
- 15:09Speaker 1: of them we played and so it was more of
- 15:12Speaker 1: a performance and that gave a little bit of a
- 15:14Speaker 1: life feel to them. So it's a little bit feels different.
- 15:18Speaker 2: Yeah, I've I got to say to you, Brian, I
- 15:20Speaker 2: really loved the version of blow on Blankets on Boy,
- 15:22Speaker 2: like they are the three minute back, you guys bringing
- 15:25Speaker 2: this massive breakdown that shouldn't be there, but it just
- 15:28Speaker 2: like in a whole different direction. Brian, like, I didn't
- 15:31Speaker 2: think anyone could make that song better, and you got
- 15:34Speaker 2: quite well done it.
- 15:36Speaker 1: Right It look it's like the very proud of that
- 15:39Speaker 1: the one that we did the first time too, you know,
- 15:41Speaker 1: because this this was a game. It was all performance.
- 15:45Speaker 1: When the first time we did it. You know, Kenny
- 15:48Speaker 1: Wayne Shepherd, who wrote the song, heard it and he
- 15:51Speaker 1: was like, hey, I want to be part of it.
- 15:52Speaker 1: So that so I imagine that scenario. So Kenny Wayne
- 15:56Speaker 1: Shepherd wanted to play and sing on the song that
- 15:58Speaker 1: we were covering, but it's he song. It's great. Yeah.
- 16:02Speaker 1: So yeah, so he was on the song, so odam
- 16:05Speaker 1: sudden is you know, it's not just a cover, it
- 16:07Speaker 1: is not collaboration. Then Brentley Gilbert was a huge culture
- 16:10Speaker 1: artist in America, was singing some of the verses, and
- 16:14Speaker 1: then Brian May from Twin was in the studio and
- 16:18Speaker 1: he's like, oh my god, that sounds I want to
- 16:20Speaker 1: be on this. It sounds great, and so he plays
- 16:22Speaker 1: one of the guitar solos. So this, Yeah, that that
- 16:25Speaker 1: was a crazy moment in history. So the guy who
- 16:29Speaker 1: wrote the song, you know, and it's kind of like
- 16:32Speaker 1: I got yeah it was he gave him a number one.
- 16:36Speaker 1: I mean, you know, like that song man number one
- 16:39Speaker 1: on the radio. So that's you know, so that's pretty cool.
- 16:43Speaker 2: You know, we're gonna have to wand this up right,
- 16:44Speaker 2: I'll just leave this last question, like twenty is significant
- 16:48Speaker 2: mouth tie in the music industry, like you said before,
- 16:50Speaker 2: but as the band, if you stack down and planned
- 16:52Speaker 2: any further in the future or are.
- 16:53Speaker 1: You just going to write the wave and take things.
- 16:55Speaker 4: It's like, I'm well, it was just you know, we're
- 16:58Speaker 4: always looking at the future, like what we're doing next,
- 17:01Speaker 4: Like right now we are talking about a world tour,
- 17:05Speaker 4: So twenty ath anniversary world tour probably twenty six twenty seven,
- 17:09Speaker 4: which means a world tour, like so we try to
- 17:11Speaker 4: do it all the whole, you know, usually you know,
- 17:15Speaker 4: we haven't been in Australia for a long time, so
- 17:18Speaker 4: haven't been in Japan for a long time, so we
- 17:20Speaker 4: want to do a world tour that a proper world tour,
- 17:23Speaker 4: and we just.
- 17:24Speaker 1: You know, it's like, look, that's how we got this far.
- 17:26Speaker 1: It's just one foot after the other, you know what
- 17:29Speaker 1: I mean, and we just kept marching. It's so we're
- 17:31Speaker 1: gonna keep doing the same.
- 17:33Speaker 2: Man, that's almost been a pleasure to make with. You
- 17:35Speaker 2: made your breath of fresh air this summer morning. I've
- 17:37Speaker 2: gotta say best of black volume teaer Is had type
- 17:40Speaker 2: of twenty fourth and congradulations on twenty years because I've
- 17:42Speaker 2: been with you guys from the start and long lived
- 17:44Speaker 2: five Think at that punch, right, all right, thank you,
- 17:47Speaker 2: Rother