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MOVE: Or When the Philly Police Dropped a Bomb on a Residential Neighborhood · Stuff You Should Know

• 0:00
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  Speaker 1: and we will see you soon. Welcome to Stuff You
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Should Know, a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. There's Chuck. There's Josh.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: You got to get used to this, Chuck. We will eventually.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: It's the new normal. Yep. And this is Stuff You
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Should Know. The I Can't Believe this happened edition one
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: of many, one of many. Yeah, this sparked off a
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: lot of ideas too. Oh yeah, yeah, like how the
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Phillies work? No, what's up with the Philly fanatic? That's
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: the green one right, Yeah, that's a great character. So
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: let's dispense with all that. Okay, Yeah, there's gonna be
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: a long one, so let's just jump in. Okay. So
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: back in and May, Philadelphia Police Department became the first
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: and to this point only police department to drop a
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: bomb on American soil. No police department has ever bombed
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: anything in the history of America, but they did, and
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: they happened to bomb a house that was occupied at
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: the time with thirteen people, seven of which were children.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: And the people in this house were members of an
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: organization called Move m O V E all caps, but
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: it's not an acronym UM. And they did this because
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: MOVE had made themselves quite a nuisance in the neighborhood,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: to say the least. And there was basically, by this
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: time in a bitter feud between MOVE in the Philadelphia
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Police Department, and on May thirteenth, that came to a
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: fiery and tragic and it's nice set up. You should
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: have music playing or something. Hopefully Josh will do that,
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: because God knows, Jerry's not going to not anywhere anywhere,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: knows where she is. So you want to go back
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: in time and talk a little bit about MOVE in
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: their origins and then go forward in time. I would
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: like to isn't that what you said? Okay, So MOVE
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: is still around UM at the times over the years,
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: they've been called a cult, They've been called UM, a
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: black liberation movement, back to Earth, a terrorist group, animal
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: rights group. There are all these things to a certain
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: degree here and there UM. Although the leader one Mr
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Vincent Leppard, who everyone, by the way, if you hear
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: us say the name so and so Africa. Once you
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: become a member of MOVE you take on the last
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: name of Africa, which even though they weren't strictly a
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: group for African Americans, they had white people early on
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: in Puerto Ricans. They definitely kind of got that wrapped
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: a little bit more because of the Black Power movement
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: and the fact that the leader was black. Changed his
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: name to Africa and asked everyone else to change their
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: last name to Africa. But although not legally, I don't
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: think no no UM, but ultimately it was well, they
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: wouldn't have done it legally because that's part of the system,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: and the system was one of the things they were against.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: There were basically two prongs to John Africa's philosophy. One
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: was that basically all life is important and equally important. Yeah.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: So there was a lot of animal rights stuff. There
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: was a lot of not eating meat um ostensibly um.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: It was there vegetarianism in there. There there was, although
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: they weren't strict vegetarians. Um. Yes, but there was an
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: animal rights and protection in the sanctity of life. And
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: then the second was that the um the system as
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: they called it, was inherently flawed because everything that was
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: created by humans was flawed and therefore not not only
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: should not be used, but the whole system should be
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: taken down and replaced with a much more natural, um
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: animalistic philosophy in way of life. Yeah. So that includes electricity,
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: that includes like cooking meat. Um, like these kids ate
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: raw chicken, believe it or not. You know, the kids
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: who were raised in the move movement. Uh. And this
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: is um. This story would make a lot more sense
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: if this was on like, uh, some deserted island and
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: someone was moving there to start this utopian society on
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: an island. This is a very interesting story, and that
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: it happened in a densely populated area of row houses
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: in West Philadelphia, not where you would I can't not
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: think I remember I hear West Philadelphia. I thought of
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: it too. Um, it's when you go back and look
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: at the footage. And by the way, there's a great
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: documentary called Let It Burn, Let the Fire Burn that
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: you should pay for online. I did. That's good on
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: Amazon Prime, and uh, well I'm a Prime member, so
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: so am I I still had to pay to rent
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: it though, because Amazon is part of the system. That's right. Uh,
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: where was that going? Uh you were saying that it
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: would make more sense on a deserted island than in
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: a densely populated neighborhood and Philadelphia. Yeah, so when you're
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: watching this documentary and there's so much footage, Um, it's
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: crazy to see this house, this row house, uh, set
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: up with um, you know, farm animals at times in
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: the front yard, heavily fenced in, fortified like a fortress. Yeah,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: sometimes people standing outside with guns. Um. Even though, as
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: we'll see, are these guns were later found out to
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: be not capable of firing bullets, which means, well, I
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: guess it's still a gun, but it means it's not
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: a weapon. It's a club. Yeah sort of. Um, but
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: at the very least, it's just it's an odd setting
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: for this story. It is, And when you watch that documentary,
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: that house sticks out like a sore thumb like this.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: They had Amish people probably an hour and a half
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: away from this, doing the same thing out in the
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: middle of the country. Not the exact same thing, but
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. But you can't get a
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: good cheese steak in Amish country, much less a good
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: raw one. You can get good stick candy because they
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: know what they're doing with that stuff. Nice furniture. Butter sure,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: what was it rum Springer where they get to go
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: crazy or whatever and see if they want to live
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: the Amish life? I think, yeah, I think that was it.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: That was a good one. It's a good time ago.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: But anyway, it's a very interesting setting for this story. Um,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: it got caught up in or maybe unfairly pegged as
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: black liberation, like I said, but sort of because of
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: the time in which it happened, which was in the
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: in the seventies and early eighties when the Black Panther
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: Party was in power. That was a former Black Panther
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: that later would join the move movement. Yes, but from
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: what I saw in that documentary, that person was interviewed
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: and he makes it sound like rather than bringing the
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Black Panther ideas to left, he he took on moves
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: ideals rather than the discarded the Black Panther's idea. Yeah,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: I think he was disillusioned with the Black Panthers because
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: of the violence. And it should be pointed out that
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: Um that Africa's whole thing was was his whole thing
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: was non violence. But it wasn't like that was at
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: the forefront of like his everyday talkings, because they very
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: aggressively and very obscenely blasted their message through these loudspeakers
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: attached to this row house, which was a real problem
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: in this neighborhood for everyone this you know, black neighborhood.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: They didn't want him there either. No, that's don't drop
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: a bottom up on him, which is what one of them,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: being interviewed very clearly was like, we didn't want this
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: to happen, but you know, they were a threat to
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: our well being here in the neighborhood. Yeah, And they
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: were also deliberately provocative. They they purposefully made a nuisance
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: side of themselves because part of moves Um philosophy was
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: waking everybody else up and doing it in a really
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: aggressive hostile way. Supposedly, some neighbors reported that they were
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: directly threatened by this group, which is a big problem too.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's definitely a couple of steps up from um.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: Agitating or aggravating people. Threatening them is different, sure, but
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: at the very least, you know, imagine being a neighbor
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: who has lived in this house for twenty years and
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden there's this organization living there, and
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: at three in the morning, it's just blasting out. You know,
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: these mf ers and that are in charge or F
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: and this and F and that, and like I felt
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: sorry for these citizens. You know, is a lot of
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: empathy like to be dispersed among many parts of this story, yes,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: but the story also this Basically, this story has two
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: types of people in it, um villains and innocence. That's
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: virtually here. There's Almos. There's one hero that you can
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: point to, and he doesn't even appear in this article.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: He was in the documentary UM, which we'll talk about
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: him for a minute later. But it's mostly just people,
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: the adults acting badly and the children or the people
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: in the neighborhood who are innocent bystanders or pawns. In
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: this whole thing. Victims for sure, for sure, because when
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: you're talking about like blaring your your philosophy and a
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: very hostile, um foul mouthed way. If you see the
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: pictures of the house, like those loudspeakers that they have
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: it like stock car races or whatever, that's what they
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: had posted out on the house. It wasn't just some
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: with the bullhorn or like that that umlwaukie talkie thing
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: that Homer Simpson had at the yard sale. And you
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: can hear this along the whole block in every direction. Yes,
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: and if you were anywhere near them, if your house
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: was next door, even a couple of doors down, you
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: heard them night and day. And it was a real problem. Yeah,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: So we should back up a little bit and give
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: a little bit of the background here. Before the nineteen
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: eighties happened and they moved into the second house on
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: O Sage Avenue. U Um, they loved at a different
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: house in the late seventies, and there was a different
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: mayor in Philadelphia at this time, Mayor Rizzo, who was
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: a scumbag, tough talking like, yeah, he was a scumbag,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: I'm just kidding. I saw archival footage of the man
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: and he was strongman, scumbag. Yeah, he was one of
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: these guys, you know, and we'll see what happened here.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: It was, uh, he was not in charge anymore, but
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: it was remnants from that attitude basically that he laid
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: down in the city, which is like he was in charge.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I'm talking about the bombing. Um. So
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: in seventy eight, there was a standoff with the police.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: We had talked about the guns earlier. It was later
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: found out that these guns weren't capable of firing. They
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: didn't know that at the time, but at the very least,
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: the cops over acted or overreacted at the UH at
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: the declaration of Mayor Rizzo, and there was shooting. There
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: was an officer that was shot and killed and it
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: was just a really bad scene. So even just a
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: little bit before that too, there was UM there was
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: a confrontation between MOVE and the Philadelphia police where one
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: of the MOVE members babies, like a two month old
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: um died yeah, of and the MOVE members said the
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: cops did this like this, like this baby died from
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: this confrontation with the police, So like that kicks that off.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: The police eventually raid the Move house in and one
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: of the officers get shot and killed in this raid,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: and so you've got some real bad blood brewing between
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: these two groups. Yeah. And during that raid, Delbert Africa,
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: one of the members was and that you can see
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: the footage of this, It was all captured on camera. Uh,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: just beaten on the street while laying on the sidewalk
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: by these cops while he was surrendering. Yeah. So, uh,
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: to say that there was bad blood is sort of
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: an understatement. It was you had on one side, a
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: um what you could at least define as a public
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: nuisance in this neighborhood. You had on this other side,
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: these the zealous mayor who just wanted to get rid
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: of them period. Not like let's meet and let's talk,
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: let's see if we can all work together. Uh. They were.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: They were one hundred thousand percent at odds with one another.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: So the police officer that died, Um, the Move side
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: said we didn't shoot that guy. It was friendly fire
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: that got him. The Philadelphia Police Department didn't agree with
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: that story. And so I'm like a personal level, like
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: not just an organizational level, but to a cop, the
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: cops hated Move and these people just continued on in
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Philadelphia and actually stepped up there, um, making themselves a
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: public nuisance. Uh, because nine of their members were arrested
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: for the murder of that police officer, Yes, and sent
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: to jail for decades years is what they're each sentence for. Uh.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: We'll talk about what happened to them towards the end,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: but so so just to kind of like like just
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: paint this one last stroke on this this picture we're
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: painting here. The cops had a vendetta against MOVE because
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: one of their own was killed during the siege, and
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: MOVE had a vendetta against the cops because nine of
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: their people were put in jail, one of them was beaten,
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: and a baby had died on their side. Okay, all right,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: let's take a break and we'll come back write it
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: for this and talk more about what happened. Alright. So
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: whether or not this was a cult is uh. Some
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: people debate that. John Africa is very much on record
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: saying it's an organization. Um is that relevant? I don't
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: think so. I don't either. Um, like it's just an
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: attempt to discredit them, oh, to call them occult. Huh, Yeah,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it's all we're talking about.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I'm not like criticizing you or anything
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: like that. I'm just saying, like when people toss it
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: around like oh they were a cult. Yeah, there there
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: were some like characteristics that that you could say, well,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: it's kind of cult like or whatever. Let's put it
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: this way. If it was on a deserted island, then
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: I think people would have straight up called them ac cult.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: The fact that it was in the neighborhood and West
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Philadelphia made it seem a lot less, so I hear you.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: But if he was like, come here and live on
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: this island with me, then it would have straight up
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: been called a cult. Let me rephrase what I was saying.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: I don't dispute that they may have been a cult,
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: but again it's that, well, does that mean that they
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: should have had a bomb dropped on them? I don't
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: think anyone thinks that. Okay, So uh, Like I said
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: that there were kids there that were um forced to
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: eat raw fish, raw chicken, um. The adults could cook
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: their meat, which was there was definitely some double standards
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: going on there. Their rationale was that our bodies are
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: used to this, but we want to raise you you
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: pure from the start, so you're only gonna eat raw foods. Yeah.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: They had a lot of exceptions, not just that, um,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: like the anti technology thing where they had like a
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: wood burning stove for heat and that was it. No,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: they used candles instead of lightbulbs, that kind of stuff.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: But they also had phones and they drove cars. So
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: there was a lot of um, weird exceptions in in
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: loopholes and holes in general and John Africa's guidelines as
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: he called them. Yeah. As for one of the more uh,
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: the the only child that survived this experience, Birdie Africa,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Michael Ward. Uh, he said, I'm still afraid of them,
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: of move. Some of the things that went on there.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: I can't get out of my head. Bad things. I
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: haven't told anyone except for my father, but I'll tell
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: you this. I didn't like being there. They said it
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: was a family, but a family isn't something where you're
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: forced to stay and you don't want to uh. And
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: his contention was that the kids were always trying to
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: get out of there and run away. They were just
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: too little to know how two little and you know, naked,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: they were naked, they were malnourished. Um, they were uh.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Like the only toys they had they had to hide
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: because they weren't supposed to have them because it's technology
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: and human made unsanitary. Yeah, there was, um you know,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: part of part of what move was into is growing
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: their own food, so they would compost like in the
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: alley behind the house or on the roof or something
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: like that. They had they built an animal shelter in
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: the alley. So um there was a lot of really
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: um uh like not okay conditions to raise kids and
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: let alone like adults to live in but raising children. Um,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: it was. There was some really bad decisions and choices
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: are bad outcomes from some of John Africa's philosophy. Yeah,
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: it's weird because it's like at the heart of this,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: it's this back to nature movement. You know, where you
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: want them to be on a deserted island, So not
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: even a deserted island, like go out into like there's
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: there's country side not too far outside of Philadelphia. It
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: is a little weird. It is. It's very strange because
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: on one hand, I'm like, yeah, this animal rights group
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: and they're back to nature and they're assuing the things
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: of man. But they're doing it the most like aggressive,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: antagonistic way possible in the middle of the city. It's like,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: I don't I didn't know what to think about any
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: of this except obviously you don't go in there and
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: fire bomb the place, right. It's like the one thing
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: I was clear on, right, you don't start a war
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: in the middle of a neighborhood, which is what happened. Basically, Um,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: the neighbors wanted to move out, they fired filed a
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: bunch of complaints over the years to get them shut down,
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: and the city didn't really know what to do at
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: this point. Um. At this point there was a different mayor,
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: Um Mayor Good. So this was the first black mayor
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: of Philadelphia who actually was elected on this reform ticket,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: basically to get rid of Rizzo, get rid of the corruption,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: the racism that Rizzo had had and as administration had
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: fostered because he was police chief first and then became mayor.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: And he basically after that nine raid. Um, there's footage
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: of him just basically hopped up and boasting about how
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: how militarized the Chicago p D was now, how like
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: they could I think he actually said, yeah, we could
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: go down to Cuba and take them if we wanted
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: to right now just really like boasting about this, not like,
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: oh man, you know this was this is a tragedy
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: or whatever, even however you want to say it, like
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: he was boasting like come on, who's next kind of thing,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: and this is this was the mayor at the time.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: So Wilson Good comes along as like not that we're
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: going to take a different tact here and try to
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: promote more unity. Then he was actually pretty successful in
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: a lot of ways in that respect as far as
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: the city officials go. I really kind of like Mayor
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: Good because he took responsibility for it. Yeah, even stuff
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: he didn't do just because he was the mayor, he
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: he put himself in as accountable. All right, So should
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: we fast forward? Yes, the stage is set. We know
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: what happened in the seventies. We know the relationship between
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: this neighborhood with this group and this group with the
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: city and the cops, and so uh, they decide that
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: they are going to um extract every person from that house.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: That was the plan, as we are going to remove
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: the move organization from the house on o Sage Avenue. Uh.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: In this article says they didn't have a plan that's
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: not true. They had a plan that just was not
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: executed well and went really pear shaped really fast. And
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: then they didn't have a plan. But the original plan
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: was to h They had built the move organization had
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: built it this pretty fortified bunker on top of their building.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: As far as homemade bunkers go, not bad, which gave
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: them a supreme tactical advantage. You know anything about war,
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: you know, higher ground is is always going to win
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: out if you're not always designed to castle or something.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: You know, castle designers they know, or mongers. Uh. So
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: the idea was to create a diversion on the roof, uh,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: in which time police officers or swat and everybody would
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: um would go inside and forcibly remove people by any
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: means necessary than mayor goods words. But the first the
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: first part of that was water cannons and tear gas.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: And they were very surprised when these water cannons that
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: were just I think they shot like a thousand gallons
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: a second or some crazy amount of water just left
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: them on. Yes, two of them shoot like and they
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: fully expected to basically take most of this house down
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: like it was a brick row home. UM. But they
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: expected it to to take the non brick parts off,
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: including that that structure on top, that that lookout. Um.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: And they were very very surprised when two things didn't happen,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: when that structuring come down, despite the water cans being
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: directed at it for hours, and the people not coming out,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: despite tear gas being shot into the house. And that is,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: like you said earlier, when their plan went went to
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: the to the birds. Yeah, toilet, Sure went down the toilet,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: and they said, well, what do we do now, Like
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: our whole plan doesn't work. I've got an idea. Let's
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: start shooting at the house instead. Yeah. So what they
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: didn't know this whole time was that they were all
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: hiding in a basement garage. So all of this water
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: raining down on the roof wasn't I don't probably wasn't
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: even getting to them, probably, or maybe it's not like, uh,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: it's not like they were up to their necks in
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: water in the basement and like drowning or anything like that. No,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: but they later said that the tear gas was everywhere. Um,
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: but apparently it wasn't potent enough. Maybe they used expired
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: stuff and we should step it back one step, chuck
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: before this raid actually started. They went house to house
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: to the neighbors and said, you guys, grab all your
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: clothes huge, we need you gone for twenty four hours
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: because we're about to do what you guys wanted us
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: to do for years. We're gonna do it, so you
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: need to get out here. They towed trucks from most
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Age Avenue. They towed every car they had. The like,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: the gas shut off, the electricity shut off. There was
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: a siege. Yeah, they basically tried to just vacate the
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: block and they did. Yeah, and they did it. I mean,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: I think some people stayed when they shouldn't have. But
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: it's like with any evacuation. They got as many people
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: out of there as possible. They're like, you'll be back
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: in your house tomorrow. Okay. So, so the the whole block,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: and like a couple of blocks, a couple of streets
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: on either side are cleared. The water has been um used,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: it's not working, the the tear gas is not working.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: So supposedly the first shots came from the house, but everybody,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: all witnesses, cops, firefighters, news people say that the first
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: shots were automatic fire. It's been conclusively proven that no
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: one in the move house had an automatic weapon. So
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: if the first shots were automatic, then that means the
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: cops fired first. And that's what people seem to believe
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: is that the cops started this. Yeah, and a lot
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: of this documentary it's really compelling because it's footage from
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: the commission afterward and you get like the real deal testimony,
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: first person testimony from all the major players, including the
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: police chief what was his name, Gregory Sambor? Yeah, Sambor?
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Who was He identified it as automatic, like his sworn testimony,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: said it was automatic weapons. And they're like, well, how
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: do you know? And he's like, I know what an
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: automatic weapon sounds like, right, And they're like, well, what
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: move didn't have automatic weapons? He's like, oh, I don't
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: know about that. Yeah, He's like, I don't know how
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: to explain that. Then, but they fired first. He just
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: kind of stuck to his guns every single time. Yeah,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: he was a piece of work of self. He was
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: definitely in the cut from the same cloth as uh Maririzzo,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: I think. So. Yeah, So they decided to start shooting
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: at this point, because regardless of who shot first, it
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: becomes like Vietnam on the city block. All of a sudden,
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: and it's not like, I mean, they cleared it out.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: But when you see this news footage, I mean there's
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: people everywhere watching their news cameras in and anchors everywhere
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: on the streets like, oh, like we should get behind
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: the car now because it's raining bullets everywhere. It's just
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: freaky to see this happening in like a city block
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: in the United States. Yeah, the cop eighties. The cops
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: later on in estimated that they fired about ten rounds.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: They ran out of bullets. Yeah, they had to bring
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: him more because yeah, that this car pulls up there
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: like a car, a police car is just rushed into
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: the scene and it's like from a movie. The trunk
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: pops and it's just full of bullets, just for because
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: they ran out of bullets. Yeah, so they kept shooting
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: at this house. And here's the thing. Bear in mind,
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: they're shooting ten thousand rounds of ammunition at a house
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: occupied by three people, seven of which are children. Everyone knows.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: Everyone knows that there were seven children in that house. Yeah,
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: it's not like the cops were unaware. Uh, everyone knew
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: that there were children in this house. It was part
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: of it. It was part of the concern of the
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: neighbors that there were children being raised in this house,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: and the cops acted on the information from confidential informants
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: who fully informed them that there were children in this house.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: So that's step one. They fired ten thousand rounds at
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: a house where they knew that there were seven children. Alright,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: so nothing is changing though, they're still not bringing people
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: out of this house. I'll bet they were like, I
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: can't believe this, and the structure was still intact on top.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: I'm surprised they didn't think they were dead. Yeah. I
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: would have thought at some point they would have been like, well,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: I'm sure we probably killed everyone, let's just go in there.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Uh Yeah, I wonder, Yeah, I wonder, because if they
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: were all crowded, crowded down in the basement garage, they
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: couldn't have been firing back after a certain point in time. Yeah,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I mean they said part of the
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: problem was, uh, the tear gas, so they couldn't send
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: cops in there because it was flooded with tear gas.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: And then I think they said the um, well, no
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: that this this comes later, the steam, so put a
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: pin in the steam. So at some point someone on
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: the bomb squad apparently says to the police chief, or
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: it gets to the police chief, Hey, he was really
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: you know, the chief was really worried about that bunker
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: in that tactical advantage. So someone from the bomb squad said,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: why don't we drop a bomb on the roof and
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: get rid of that bunker? And an officer named William
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Klein suggested, and they said it, okay, let's do that.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: Good idea. Klein, what do we think a helicopter and
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: a bomb. They're like, well, we've got both. So even
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: as late as the inquiry that they held, they characterized
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: it as a Tovex bomb, And to Vex is a
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: water based gelatinous at explosive um that that is used
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: I think in mining and demolition and stuff like that.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: But it can be purchased. Yes. Yeah. It later came
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: out that in addition to the to vex, the the
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: bomb disposal guy made a bomb with C four plastic explosives,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: which is not commercially available, which means that we'll see
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: later the Philadelphia Police Department should not have had this stuff. Yeah,
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: I mean we should just go ahead and say how
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: they got it? Why not? Well, I was trying to
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: save it for with a little flair for the dramatic,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: but you go ahead. Well, uh, the FBI gave it
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: to him secretly. Yeah, the FBI had been giving um
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: little bits of C four here and there to police
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: departments apparently like the blow doors off of stuff to
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: train bomb sniffing dogs teach them how to use it.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: But then the FBI use that excuse for a little while,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: then later came out and said we actually like brought
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: them a bunch of C four, like thirty blocks of
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: C four in January, a few months before were this
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: this raid, the siege. But still during the time when
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: um the like move people were being negotiated with to
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: leave on their own. Yeah, because that was happening this
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: whole time. They would have community leaders on the bullhorn
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: trying to talk them into coming out. They did not
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: have a professional negotiator on the scene, which that's a
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: huge yet. Yeah, that they never meant for anyone to
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: come out. Yeah, but at any rate, they drop a
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: bomb a I think it was a they said, a
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: four pound bomb from a satchel with a forty five
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: second fuse. This is all on camera, like you literally
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: in this documentary see the helicopter flyover, drop the satchel
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: out of it. Yeah, I love that. You did a
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: running motion, you know in helicopters runs, and they flew
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: out of there and uh kaboom and West Philadelphia, a
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: bomb explodes on top of the building and a smallish
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: fire starts. There was there like five that they dropped
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: the bomb five ten, I think, and the smallest fire
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: took a couple of minutes for it to to become
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: a parent that it had caught fire. But supposedly there
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: was gasoline in the um what are we calling that
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: thing the bunker? The bunker? They're supposedly gasoline in the bunker.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: But I really like they the police dropped the bomb
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: on a building that they knew that people were in,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: seven of which were children, Okay, And supposedly the reason
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: that they did this was to to get rid of
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: that bunker. Like that bunker. The police chief did not
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: like that bunker standing still and wanted to get rid
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: of it. The bomb didn't do anything to the bunker.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: That was a strong bunker. It was um. The timelines important.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: So at is when they dropped the bomb at five uh,
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: someone asked the fire department if they should turn on
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: the you know, they've been deluging this thing with water
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: all day long until there's a fire and then they
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: turn it off, which was you know, it's not ironic
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: because it was very purposeful, but um, it definitely stings.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: More so they said, uh, not to turn them on
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: by six o'clock. So this is thirty three minutes later, Um,
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Mayor Good is watching this on TV in his office.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: He phones it in and says, you know, let's let's
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: put this fire out now. He ordered the fire to
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: be put out. Yeah, thirty three minutes later. And this
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: is where it gets a little hinky because this was
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: given to police Chief Sambor, and under testimony, Sambor says
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: that he relayed that to the fire chief. He said,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: he said that the fire chief was there. He did
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: not say he related to it. Well yeah, I mean
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: he got very dodgy with how he worded it. But
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: the fire chief Um basically on testimony, said that's what
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: he said, and he's like, I categorically denied that I
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: ever got in order to start those water cannons, or
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: that he was even aware that Good made that call
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: a phone call or called the order. So basically, the
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: fire chiefs said, the bucks stopped with Sambor, and Sambor
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: the police chief decided to let that fire burn, that's right,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: because he thought, not defending him, but he thought the
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: fire would then take down the bunker and remove that advantage.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Other people contend, and they asked him in the deposition
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: or in the in the hearing, no, you've kind of
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: really wanted to use the fire as a weapon. He
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: got real salty you about that. He did. He said
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: a fire can't be a weapon. Basically said about flamethrowers.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: He goes, I hadn't thought about flamethrowers. But still, all right,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: so this is six thirty flames are uh, it is
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: clearly out of hand. They waited way too long. That
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: was the thing that got me was it was obvious
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: from what Sandbar was saying, if the documentary is accurate,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: from what Sandbar was saying, that when he was saying
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: that we need to let the bunker burn, still by
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: this time, the entire top floor was a conflagration. Yeah,
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: I mean it's on the news. So so that whole
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: thing doesn't hold water at all, and it would lend
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: support to the idea that he was using it as
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: a weapon to burn the people out. I'm sure he was.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: I'm sure he thought tear guests didn't work. Maybe this
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: fire will work and drive these people out of there.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: All right, should we take a break or should we wait?
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Let's take a break. Okay, we'll take a break and
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: we'll tell you what happens next. Okay, Chuck, So the
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: for for a little bit. The fire department UM sprays
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: some of the houses next to the move house, but
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: doesn't put the fire out or spray the fire on
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: the move house. So when the abandoned houses, they're spraying
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: down to try to contain the fire in the house.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: The one house in this whole square block area where
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: they know people are, including seven children, they didn't spray.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Later on, they will defend this by saying, well, in
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: that siege, move Um fired on the firefighters and apparently
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: shot and injured several firefighters, so that we were worried
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: for the firefighters to be picked off fighting this fire
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: in this siege as well. Ramona Africa, who would be
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: the one adult from move to survive this siege? I
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: would say, well, like you said earlier, they had these
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: they weren't scared to to hit us with these water cannons.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: The whole time there wasn't a fire, but then there
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: is a fire. Now they're scared. We're going to pick
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: them off. Doesn't make any sense. It's just be yes. Yeah.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: And also I'm glad you brought that up because I
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: said to put a pin in the steam. This is
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: when the steam happened, because they're blowing water on this
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: fire now and it's creating all the steam that they said.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: Didn't allow anyone to move in as well, because they
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: couldn't see anything. There was no visibility. Okay, So despite
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: spraying down the houses around this fire, it got out
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: of hand really fast, and it spread very fast, and
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: it moved very quickly, not just from the move house, um,
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: but onto the neighboring houses and then beyond. And even
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: these are fairly narrow streets that this neighborhood was built on,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: and it jumped the street fairly quickly. Yeah. It wasn't
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: contained or deemed under control until PM. So it's like
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: more than six hours after it started. Yeah, that this
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: whole city block has just burnt to the ground. It
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: ended up being like a six alarmed fire, which depending
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: on the city, is a hundred hundred and twenty firefighters, chiefs,
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: ladder trucks. It's a big old fire. Yeah. So uh,
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: you mentioned the nineteen seventy eight siege where um the
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: officer was shot and killed and where the beating of
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Delbert Africa went down. Important to remember that because two
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: of the officers there were involved in the beat down
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: of Delbert Africa were also on the scene today. And
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: they make a big point in this commission like did
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: you think about sending these guys in there might not
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: be a good idea and they may have revenge on
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: their minds uh, And I can't remember what the answer was.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: He was kind of like he said, no, I didn't
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: think of that, yeah, or yes I did, whatever it was.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: He was not like, yeah, that was not a good idea, right,
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: He stood by whatever it was. Right. So this kind
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: of sets up um another story in tandem that's going
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: on right now, which is at a certain point during
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: this massive fire, Yeah, they tried to get out from
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: the basement. The move people tried to get out. They
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: tried to escape, that's right, They tried to get out
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: the back door. There's this um. At this points the
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: cops had moved into the alleyway there was no camera access.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: You couldn't see what happened. But from the testimony that
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: I can't even hardly get through the testimony of that kid.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: You know, they deposed him. He wasn't in front of
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: the commission, but Africa. Yeah, but Bertie Africa was like
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: what he looked like ten or eleven years old when
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: they deposed him. Yeah, but he was actually like thirteen,
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: was he? Um? But this kid is retelling the story, Uh,
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: seems incredibly credible and believable to me, Like, I fully
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: believe that he was telling the truth Over the two
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: cops who are supposed who may or may not who
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: may have actually fired on the people trying to escape
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: the house of the two. It's way easier to believe
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: that kids testimony than these guys who were the ones
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: who beat Delbert Africa in. Yeah, so that's what happened.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: They tried to leave. There was a kid named rad
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Africa that was I think like thirteen or fourteen, and
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: he was carrying out a baby and he was one
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: of the first ones out and he goes back into
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: the house and there's that part of the documentary where
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: the the priest is talking to the officers and He's like,
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: because officers are saying, all we were saying was come
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: out with your hands up, right, we didn't fire on anything,
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: We didn't fire. We come out with your hands up.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: And this priest is like, I'm trying to think of
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: what would make a kid holding a baby go back
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: into a building engulfed in flames. And the cops are like,
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, you can't really put yourself in
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: a move person's feet, right, you can't really identify with them,
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: and that that minister or whatever said, actually I was
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: friends with a lot of these people. I knew them
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: on a human level. Um. The other thing that really
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: kind of damns the two cops who beat Delbert Africa's
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: testimony UM is that there there was reports from a
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: lot of witnesses, including like fire department people from of
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: um gunfire in this alley around this time. So the
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: whole thing kind of adds up if you take those
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: testament that the reports of witnesses that there was gunfire
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: in the back alley with Birdie Africa and Ramona Africa's
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: testimony that around that same time people had tried to escape,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: and then the testimony of the cops themselves that the
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: people had run back in the house. It sounds a
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: lot like a reasonable person would conclude that the cops
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: who had beaten Delbert Africa shot at the people from
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: move In who tried to escape the fire and force
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: them back into the burning house. That's certainly what it
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: sounds like. Uh. They the cops said that the kid
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: had or he said he was a man, he was
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: a kid, had a rifle that he pointed at them,
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: and like, I know what a rifle looks like, because
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: the the kid who survived, um Bertie said he had
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: a monkey wrench in his hand that he used to
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: get the window open. And he came out with a
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: monkey wrench in that baby. And the cop was like,
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: I can tell the differ between a rifle and a
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: monkey wrench. Yeah. And if you're sitting here like, hey,
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: you lay off the cops, just watch this documentary and
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: then listen to this part over again, because it's really
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: it's a really great documentary. It does a really good
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: job of like laying everything out. But part of the
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: part of the um, I guess the goodness of this
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: documentary is that it's all archival and it lets the
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: people speak for themselves. Yeah, it's just you basically kind
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: of watch what happened and listen to what people said
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: about it, you know, including the people. And it's obviously
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: I mean it's edited. It's not just like here's this
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: this inquiry, here's my documentary. But I mean that it
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: lets it pay out enough that you get a really
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: good clear picture of of what happened in the testimony
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: that followed. So, I mean, that's kind of the end
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: of that story. Um, as it happened. You know, these
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Ramona and Bertie were the only two to make it
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: out of that house alive. And that hero I mentioned earlier,
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: cop Man. I wish I could remember his name. I
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: got his name, he um. He he could not stop
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: himself from running to Bertie to help him. Yeah, James Officer,
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: James burg Hire. So burg Hire um ran to them,
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: despite his some of his colleagues saying, don't I think
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: it's a trap. You're gonna be killed? He said, I can't.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: I can't. Like I see this kid right there, and
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go rescue him. He thought of his kids,
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: he said he did, and he was. They even say
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: like in the inquiry, like if there's if there's any
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: like silver, silver lining or shining moment to this whole
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: horrible thing. It's what you did. Um. And he got
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: kind of rousted out of the police department within a
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: year or two. Oh yeah, his his own uh police
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: brethren turned on him. They wrote racial epithets on his
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: locker because he saved this kid. Uh was diagnosed with
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: PTSD and left the forest two years later. Uh. And
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: there's a great article I found that I read the
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: first third of right before we had to record that
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: of him an interview with him. I guess like five
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: or six years ago that I can't wait to go
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: read and finish up. So let's finish up. Okay. So,
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: so the so Bertie and Ramona were the only two
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: move members who survived. The other eleven died, including six
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: children in this house that was set on fire. And
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: the fire was set off by a bomb that the
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: Philadelphia Police Department dropped on the house. So obviously Philadelphia
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: is gonna cough up some money for this. Uh yeah,
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: that was Um. There were settlements UM. The parents of
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: the dead children, UM settled for twenty five million dollars total. UM.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Michael Ward young Bertie, he became Michael Warred. He changed
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: his name. He got one point seven million dollars, Ramona
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Africa got half a million dollars, and the families of
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: John Africa and his nephew they couldn't reach a settlement,
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: so they were awarded one million by a jury. And
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: then here's the kicker. Police Chief Sambor and fire Chief
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Richmond were forced to pay a dollar a week for
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: eleven years to Ramona Africa to to keep in mind,
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: five seventy two dollars, which is a but it's a
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: civil I mean that's a civil punishment basically saying we
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: think you're like, you might not be criminally responsible, but
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: in the civil suit we are saying it's basically like
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: how um symbolic payment or whatever. Yeah, it's like how
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: the court, the civil court ruled against o j even
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: though he had been found not um guilty of murder
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: in the criminal the civil courts still said, no, you're
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: you're responsible. We believe so we're going to get you
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: in this way. They did the same thing. And this
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: was despite the fact that Ramona Africa did seven years.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: Like they didn't say, hey, we're really sorry we burned
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: this house. Here's some money. They said, hey, um, you're
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: under arrest for um inciting riot and UM conspiracy of
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: something or other and she did seven years. She didn't
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: get out early because the parole board said you have
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: to denounce move um and she refused to denounce move
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: and she did her full seven years, although now she
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: is not affiliated with MOVE any longer. As far as
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: I know, yeah, um. As far as the original MOVE nine,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: who are the ones in prison for the killing of
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: the police officer. Two of them died in prison. I
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: think two are still in prison. The rest, including just
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: in February. Uh, February twelve, Eddie Africa was paroled. Um.
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: Delbert and Chuck Africa are still behind bars. I think
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: the only two still behind bars. Uh. And as far
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: as Michael Ward a k A young Birdie Africa, he
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: very sadly died in two thousand thirteen in a hot
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: tub cruise ship drowning due to you uh, intoxication. Yeah.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: They The Brevard County, Florida Medical Examiner ruled at an
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: accidental death from drowning in the hot tub from just
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: being drunk. I guess what a weird way to go
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: after all that weird life. Yeah, he um. It's weird
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: because during the deposition. He was there with his father,
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, where was his dad? His dad was
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: looking for him while his dad was out of the
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: country in the military, while he was living in Philadelphia. Right,
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: but he had moved to um, suburban Philadelphia. Yeah, his
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: dad did and had been looking for Michael and had
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: no idea he was, you know, thirty minutes away in Philly. Yeah.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: So he lived the rest of his life with his dad,
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: and that's who he referenced earlier when he was like,
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: you know, the stuff that went on there, I'll only
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: tell my father super super tragic. And it's one of
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: these things I think like we should do a little
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: triumvirate of this in Ruby Ridge and Waco, maybe like
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: three times where there was a potentially problematic organization in
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: the United States government just decided to firebombit. Yeah. These
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: are so sticky because you want to be like, oh,
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: these people are the victims and the you know, the
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: government really was a villain in this one. But you're like,
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: it's never that complex, and these stories really teach you
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: that that's always things are much more textured than than
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: than that. They're much more nuanced than that black and white. Um.
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: But even still still don't drop you don't drop a
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: bomb and burn people to death. Yeah, the city as
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: far as that block went, um, they paid eleven million dollars,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: which was by all accounts a very inside deal with
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: some developer who put up a bunch of houses that
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: were um condemned in two thousand due to shoddy construction.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: So somebody got rich again trying to build these things,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: did a terrible job. Um, twenty four families stayed. They
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: offered repairs and buyouts, uh, and apparently most people took
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: the buyouts. And if you do like the little Google Earth,
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: the one oh sage, it's uh still row houses. And
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: on either side of that it looks like people might
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: be living there. But that building has like you know,
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: apply wood up in the windows, because I heard like
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: starting in about two thousand fifteen they brought in a
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: good developer and started to redevelop it and then starting
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: to come back. Well it's interesting that one address though
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: is uh is boarded up, So I don't know if
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: like no one wants to live there, or it could
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: be an older Google image. Yeah those are usually newer, right,
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: I wonder why, I mean, it could be older than
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: two fifteen although I looked at my house the other
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: day and it was it was the old house. The
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: old house. Yeah, and I was kind of like, oh,
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: that's cute. It looked prettier than I thought. No, you
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: got a good house. I gotta see your new version. Yeah,
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: you should fancy version. I'm just waiting for an invite.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: Come on over. Thanks, Um, I can't Uh. If you
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: want to know more about the move bombing police, please,
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: we both beseech you go watch Let the Fire Burn
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: on Amazon Prime, on the internet, wherever you can see it.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: Just see it. It's really really good. And and we
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: should point out to that no one involved on the
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: on the cops, in the political side suffered any punishments.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: There was that inquiry and no one was found guilty
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: of any wrongdoing except although this is this will put
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: a really good button on this multi racial panel inquiry
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: panel that held these hearings to a person with one
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: dissenter said that we conclude had this not been a
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: black working class neighborhood and instead of white working class neighborhood,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: the police never would have dropped that bomb. Of course
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: they wouldn't have. Yeah, okay, uh, it's time for listening now.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: Who was the lone dissenter I didn't see. It's got
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: to be a guy with the glasses. It's always that guy. Uh,
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: what am I gonna call this? Perfect pitch follow up?
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: Hey guys. Back in two thousand nine, my band was
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: recording an album and there was one song that ends
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: with us all singing and holding out a single note.
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: The next song starts with us singing that same note.
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: You see what they did adding drums. Then the songs
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: are edited together to have them flow into each other
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: with no gap. Josh, he is very interesting because he's
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: a musician. Jerry just be like, I'm meeting me, So
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: what did you guys say? We had finished recording that
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: first one, and I can tell by the look on
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: Josh's face he's like that old trick. Uh packed our
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: instruments away. Then we're about to start the next one.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: We realize we need to hear the first note so
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: we could sing in the right pitch instead of loading
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: up the previous song. Our pianist said, I have perfect
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: pitch and built it out the note, which we all
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: who don't have perfect pitch, trusted him to be right
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: and started recording from there. Litterally, we know he doesn't
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: have perfect pitch, but it's close. Uh. When we edited
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: the songs together and played them through, the notes were
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: supposed to match were off by about a half step.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: Now it sounds like a Jerry very dissonant, totally wrong.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: Um oh, I just realized Jerry is going to hear
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: this one. She edited this episode's right. Just put a
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: Wilhelm screaming there, Jerry, We'll be all right. We are
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: already out of the studio at that point, so we
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: ended up just releasing it and claiming the dissonance was intentional,
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: but we never let them off the hook and with
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: the old oh yeah, you got perfect pitch, do you?
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for all the hard work, hard work.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: Guys have learned so much, been endlessly entertained for years. Signed,
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: spanked and sent. That is from Kenny. Thank you Kenny.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: We appreciate that. That was a pretty great email. I
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: mean literally, L O L. I can only assume it's
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: Kenny Rogers. I also want to say this, we give
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: Jerry a hard time around here. It's stuff you should know.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Only she's not here. Imagine Actually that's not true. We
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: do well, she's sitting right there too. I can't imagine
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know without her. We love our Jerry
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: and she is perfect exactly the way she is. Called
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: that a nice save. All right? Uh well, if you
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: want to get in touch with this, you can go
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: on to stuff you Should Know dot com and check
• 51:06
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• 51:08
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• 51:15
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• 51:22
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