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The Hidden Orchard: What Grows in the Dark — with Matthew Wingo · Intentional Guy

• Matthew Wingo: was we're always planting seeds of some type. We're always planting seeds. The difference is are we planting those seeds in the light, which grows good fruit, or are we planting those seeds in the dark, which grows bad fruit? And I call it a hidden orchard because we're always planting emotional seeds and seeds of that we're about to reap and a harvest we're about to reap. But bad things grow in the dark. And so I I watered these seeds in the silence of my emotions, isolation, not letting anybody in. Very few people knew what I was struggling with Very few. I could count on one hand, the people that actually knew what had gone on in my marriage, in my life. And I spent the next nine years watering those seeds underneath the surface. Michael Chestnut: Hey everyone, welcome back to The Intentional Guy. I'm Michael Chesnut, and I'm your guest today. Today, I think I have my twin on here. Maybe not in looks, but in journey. He he was winning in public and losing in private, tending a hidden orchard of secret that cost him two marriages before Grace met him. And now he's on the road to recovery. And today he leads men out of shame and into the life. And you're the founder of Turn Right Ministry and the author of a book, Turn Right, The Pursuit of Noble Things. Matthew Wingo, welcome to the show, my brother. Matthew Wingo: Thank you, Michael. Excited to be here. Looking forward to our conversation. Michael Chestnut: I I am as well. can you take us back into your story of what got you to this this phase of life where you're at now? Matthew Wingo: No not nothing is done in isolation in our stories, right? It all goes back to the very beginning, you know, once upon a time for all of us. for me, I I grew up in church, Christian family, went to church, always believed the things of the Lord, knew the Bible inside and out. those were all very real to me. It was never a moment of doubt for me, but I didn't have that personal relationship. with Christ until I was seventeen years old, right before my senior year of high school, it became very real to me personally. I say that's my moment of salvation. I'd always believed, but it had never been a personal thing. a lot of my story is probably my wiring. So I grew up in a very high performance family in a good way. We were always challenged and encouraged to to be our best, to do our best at all times. Excellence was kind of the standard, and I held myself to that standard. but also had the wiring, maybe untamed is the best way to say it. If you told me can't and don't, those were challenges to accept. They were never advice or rules to follow. I was gonna do whatever I could to get across those lines. If you said don't do this, I was gonna find a way across it. And I was just, you know, I wanna see what's on the other side. Cause now all of a sudden that that boundary, that line is very exciting to me. And I have to see what's on the other side. that led to would say an an inner wiring that I carried with me even through my time of salvation. And I can equate it to, you know, I came to that moment where I accepted Christ. and I I had these jewels in my hand, these things that were important to me. And I grabbed a handful of them and I I handed them over to them. But there, you know, those two or three areas of my life. I'm like, these are mine, Jesus. I've I've got these. I've got these. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Matthew Wingo: And while on the surface I you you know all the right things to do, I I think that would lead into my future. That would lead to a lot of my story in the path of where I am today and how I got here. Which includes a very prodigal season. the prodigal son's not a story about someone coming to Christ the first time. The Lord revealed to me in this process. It's it's a story of a son who has an inheritance and he goes and squanders the inheritance he's been given. He's already part of of the family, and yet he goes and takes that for granted and squanders it. And that's my story. But the the ultimate conclusion to is the story of redemption, the loving father running down the road to greet his son, who's finally reached the end and is returning home. Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Well, it and life never goes the way we plan, does does it? Matthew Wingo: No. No. No, I I I think the best laid plans, right? And the Lord's purpose prevails. Proverbs nineteen twenty one. Many are the plans of a man's heart, but the Lord's purpose prevails. Michael Chestnut: Well, Matthew, let's let's dig into this a little bit because we have a lot in common. Honestly, when I was looking at your bio, I and I was looking at every video I could find of you and reading up on your material. I I'll be honest with you, I wasn't joking when I I opened up this and said, I think I have my twin on here today, because there are so many similarities. to our stories that we have. I told you before we came on here, I work with a a group at our church called Celebrate Recovery. And I know you have a group called Regeneration, And I kind of want to hand that over because one of the things that keeps coming up a phrase was when I was researching you and looking at you was the hidden orchard and you tending to that. And if you wouldn't mind digging into that with some of my CR buddies that are listening to this, some of your group that might be listening to this podcast. Matthew Wingo: So the idea of a hidden orchard, I I think as as I was in the writing process, just trying to think of how how is it that a person that never wants to share failure, right? Fear of failure has driven a lot of decisions in my life because I was so performance oriented and been successful in different things. I never wanted to admit when something failed. And to admit failure was to be defeated, right? That was the ultimate defeat, the shame, everything that went along with that. So I had a point in my first marriage where some truths were brought to light. And instead of instead of seeking help, instead of going, hey, this hurts. I'm wounded. I need help in being vulnerable, I buried all of that. I tried to bury the emotion. And The discovery was we're always planting seeds of some type. We're always planting seeds. The difference is are we planting those seeds in the light, which grows good fruit, or are we planting those seeds in the dark, which grows bad fruit? And I call it a hidden orchard because we're always planting emotional seeds and and seeds of that we're about to reap and a harvest we're about to reap. But bad things grow in the dark. And so I I watered these seeds in the silence of my emotions, isolation, not letting anybody in. Very few people knew what I was struggling with in my life. Very few. I could count on on one hand, the people that actually knew what had gone on in my marriage, in my life. And I spent the next nine years watering those seeds underneath the surface. And of course, there's emotional outbursts, there's anger, there's that's a very easy one to seep to the surface. But at the end of about a nine, almost 10 year period, it was time that orchard was in full bloom. And I had spent all that time in isolation, not seeking the help of others, thinking, I can do this myself. I've got this. Angry at God, angry at myself, angry at my spouse, angry at just the world around me, because I felt I felt entitled to more. I'm owed more. I'm owed better. I don't deserve this. Eventually that led to me harvesting that fruit. And that led to a divorce. That led to a prodigal season that included about a seven-year period that included a second and failed marriage. It led to me living the life I'm owed. I felt entitled to that Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Matthew Wingo: life. Like I I deserve this. After all I sacrificed, you know, I ten years into marriage, I thought it was over, but I had two small kids, so I stuck around. And look what I did. I st I stayed a lot of pride in that too, right? I stayed. to raise my kids. And so I I didn't take ownership at that point of it. That hey, Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Matthew Wingo: you know, even if I'm five percent of the blame, I need to own a hundred percent of that five percent. And I was it Michael Chestnut: Right. Matthew Wingo: was projecting on everyone else and my spouse at that time and everyone else this this pent up anger and emotion And it really took me getting to the end of myself at the end of that second marriage where I realized what has become of my life? What has become of this life? And the Lord prompted me to go to regen. And there was actually a a church thing. They actually announced it at church. Hey, we got a new season of regen starting up, regeneration starting up. We'd encourage you to come if the Lord's prompting you. The Lord's like, go to regen. Five days later, my second marriage ended. So I I couldn't make up the timing of that. And I didn't know what to do. I was I was lost. I'm going, how am I here again? How did my life get to this point? Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Matthew Wingo: So I went to regen. That's the only thing I knew the Lord told me to do is go to regen. So I walked into regen the first time. Each week was a discovery about my wiring, the things that made me kind of think and do and act the way I did. And each week just opened more insight into: hey, I have a fear of failure. I'm discontent, even in blessing, promotions at work, success, all of that. felt very hollow. I was always discontent and never grateful for what I did have. And I felt in a sense of entitlement. There's a lot of pride in that. I'm I owe I'm owed more. I deserve better than than what's happened in my life. But bringing that to the surface, bringing those things into light, allowed the Lord to actually start working on my heart and and bringing these things that I'd never shared with anybody, these hurts, these fears, these these failures, and saying it's okay to fail. Yeah. The Lord still welcomes me in. Started a what was probably a Job-like season. I left the prodigal season and went right into a Job season where I had a second marriage and a home and a family there. And then corporate layoff started. And financial woes and health woes and just all this stuff piled on top of it. And I I like to say my life echoed Job during this last three, three and a half year period. My life definitely echoed Job, except the difference is Job didn't bring it on himself. And a lot of Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Matthew Wingo: what I was bringing was I'm I was harvesting seven years of of prodigal behavior and and sowing seeds that I was again harvesting. sometimes not even in the hidden orchard, as you mentioned, and it was going Through the process and reaching a point where the only thing left was me and Jesus and kind of the ashes of my life sitting in the field of of nothing, going, Wow, there's nothing here, there's no life here. but there's Jesus standing there. And that really brought me to the point that I could I could find this calling, this new mission to to give hope to other men, to challenge other men, to live with noble Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Matthew Wingo: character. It it culminated in a bit of the book writing and starting the ministry is to say, hey, the world needs to hear this. And I like to say it was my experience, but it's his story. It's it's the story of what Christ has done in me. And I share my experience in it, but it's the story of Christ, of what he's done in me. Michael Chestnut: Well, you know, listening to you and knowing my own story, you know, for me, when my world kinda fell apart, I didn't have a celebrate recovery or a re regeneration or anything like that in my area, at least not that I knew of. And I'll and I'll be honest with you, I don't know that I would have even gone to that because to me at that point, My experience was I I wasn't going to trust someone with all this with with my secrets. And the shame that I carried was so heavy, you know, that it took me everyone's bottom's different. And you would think the FBI knocking on my door would have been my bottom, wasn't my bottom. You know, it was another six months of just wanting to to die, six months of just running, running. Because the thing was, up until that point, I had kept pushing God away. I purposely in my flesh, and the Holy Spirit was convicting me, I said, No, I want this. I knew very well everything I was doing was wrong. And I said, No God, I want this. And the thing is, you know, and I'll I'll misquote the verses, but everything done in the dark will come to light. And you know that that and that Matthew Wingo: It it does. It does. Very much there's freedom in the light, though. There's freedom in the light as well. Right. Michael Chestnut: Yes. Matthew Wingo: There's we're scared to bring these things forth and tell somebody and and allow someone to see the worst side of us and share that. And yet the weights lifted, the the confession, that the process of confession starts the healing process. Michael Chestnut: Yeah. And I but I think a better way to bring it into the light is to let someone walk alongside of you out of the darkness into the light instead of being thrown out into the light in front of everybody like that, you know? And we get a choice. We we get this choice that, hey, God is telling us you will be exposed. How do you want to do that? You know? And so Matthew Wingo: Great point. Michael Chestnut: the the good thing it took me 15 years though of walking restoration for me. I don't know how long your restoration period went, but it from the knock at my door to the final of of walking in the light of freedom because in that journey, shame and guilt was attached to me for the longest time. And I kept laying at God's feet, but I kept picking the shame and guilt back up and and carrying it. That had become my identity. Matthew Wingo: That's such a common story, I think, for all of us, the the the shame. whether it's our our own internal dialogue or it's the enemy whisper in our ears, how could you? Who who do you think you are? Who do who are you to write a book about this story? Who are you? Whatever Michael Chestnut: yeah. Matthew Wingo: whatever that looks like in the shame of that. and yet R Paul tells in Romans eight, one, right? There therefore there is now no condemnation for those of us in Christ Jesus. It's like when when we're a new creation in Christ, there there's no more condemnation. It's it's gone. So why do we choose to carry a load of shame that the Lord wouldn't put on us? and I that's I asked myself that too. Why why would I why would I carry that shame? Why would I be afraid to share my story to the world when maybe it can help free the bonds? From someone else so they no longer have to walk in their shame. Michael Chestnut: Can I ask you, is there a specific story or something in your life where you were able your eyes started opening up and how d how did you get rid of that shame and that guilt that your identity h held on to? Matthew Wingo: It may not have been one particular event, because I had started working with the counselor I on my own individually. That was a first for me. Like, wow, I'm actually willing to go sit with a professional licensed counselor and say, Hey, I don't have it all together. That's that's the first step. going through we mentioned the recovery programs and going through regeneration, there's a there's a step in there, step four, it's inventory, and that's where you start. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Matthew Wingo: You actually, for the first time, I started writing stuff down, harms to me, harms caused by me. all of the things I had done were I basically taking an inventory of my life. And I equate it to, if you remember as a kid, you would do those connect the dot pictures where you start at one, you draw a line at Michael Chestnut: yeah. Matthew Wingo: two. You you don't know what you're drawing at first. It's just a bunch of dots on a page. And that that's kind of what the inventory process started. These look like these isolated events. And when I got through the ISO the inventory stage, I said, Wait a second, I I now have a clear picture of my own wiring, the things I was doing and the common threads and all of them. And guess what? I'm a big part of the problem in my life. Imagine that. I'm my own worst enemy. I'm the problem. It's not the Lord's provision for me. It's me making bad decisions in the flesh. but going through that inventory process, and then the next one that follows that, and I love how it staged. So you go from step four inventory to step five, confession. And this is where I sat down across the table from my mentor, this guy named Mark, just a beautiful human being, loves the Lord, just a great guy that I looked up to, that I was part of a men's group with in church. And I had asked him to be my mentor. I felt the Lord prompted, This needs to be your mentor for this regen program. So he was my mentor, and I sat, I I remember the look on his face. I'm sitting across the booth from him one night in this little restaurant. And I'm walking through page by page of inventory of everything that I've done. And some of this I've just never been shared out loud. And he's just sitting there with this smile, relaxed. And it was just the most accepting, peaceful look on his face. And he just smiled at me the whole time. And it was it was just, it was this look of it's okay. It's okay. You're not condemned. You're forgiven. And then he would say that when I was done, he said that to me. And it I felt such a weight of relief. So I'd Maybe was a series of events that brought me to that. But definitely that night of confession, after learning internally what it was to be able to get that out with a trusted mentor, someone I trusted to share this with. It's not going to turn around and and share it with anybody. I knew it was being told in the strictest of confidence. And yet here he is. He's just listening with no judgment and and just. You're forgiven. You're forgiven. And he's smiling at me. And I'm just thinking, wow, wow. Just think that's that's what our heavenly father does when we come back. You know, there's the prodigal son doesn't even give an explanation when he comes home. The the father just wraps him up, puts a robe on him, puts a ring on him, and has a feast for him. And he doesn't sit there saying, I'm so sorry, I I did all this. He knows he's repentant right there. The repentance is there. The father knows what he's done and yet he's he's welcomed home. And when we get to that point of the confession to God, he's he just welcomes us in. And it's his kindness that leads us to that repentance, Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Matthew Wingo: I like to say, even in my prodigal season, he kept me from far worse paths I could have chosen and descended upon had I not had his grace, never endorsements of what I was doing, but definitely his grace protected me from myself at my worst. Michael Chestnut: Amen. Amen. I can't I should not be here. I I put myself in so many bad situations, and so I can resonate with that there. And for me, part of the listening to you you tell that and thinking about I remember sitting the first time, I was at that rock bottom and the stranger I have just met from a totally different state, this pastor, and and it was a miracle just how God laid it out. Took me to Wendy's and we sat down and for the first time I j I just regurgitated everything. And that man was just like what you said. He sat there and he listened and he there was never shock on his face. There was never disgust on his face. There was nothing but grace. and little did I know that now it's been 20 years how this man and that relationship impacted my life for him just to be obedient with stranger. Matthew Wingo: that's amazing. That's a God moment for certain that he f he always gives us a way to find grace and and return to him. and and to find him. And I I think that's such a it's a beautiful part of the story. It truly is. It's that's the most wonderful thing. And I I think I was speaking to someone else recently asked if there's one thing that people could take away from all you're doing, what would it be? And I I I think the words hope. Just give people hope that you're never too far gone. We're never too far lost. we're never out of his reach and and he's always there to welcome us home. And I think especially in recovery groups You you've noticed this too, I'm certain. But you see when people understand that it changes the trajectory of their life forever. the the men that I lead that walk in in January and they walk out in November, a completely different man that, you know, found new things along the way. They didn't even know were struggles. They came in with one big issue and they said, This is my issue. And they find 10 or 12 things along the way. They're stru these actually are issues too. And yet they're. They found ways to have freedom from that. In some cases, they found complete freedom from it. Other cases they found the tools to make them successful, to say, hey, I'm gonna I might struggle with this every day for the rest of my life. But you know what? I now know the tools and I know how to pick up the phone and call a group of men that can admonish me, encourage me, challenge me, and get me back on the right track. Michael Chestnut: Yeah. And you're dead right, because what was the thing that kept me stuck was of course the shame and the guilt, but of of no hope. I was I was the exception to everything. And no one had let God down more than me. And that is a lie that the enemy was so easily able to craft. in my mind and stay there. And he used a minister to put it there because this minister in the midst of my my addiction, he said one thing to me. He said, Well, God's done with you. God can never use you again. And The moment he said it in my head, I had our I decided in that moment life wasn't worth living. And that's why to me now words are so important to me. When I see someone in that state or whatever, a lot of times I don't say anything. I've learned the ministry of presence, Matthew Wingo: Yes. Michael Chestnut: Just be in there because we say the dumbest thing sometimes. If I don't know and I can't hear God telling me the truth to say to this person, I will be quiet I don't think that minister was trying to judge me or hurt me. I don't know I why he said what he said to me, because there's no scripture for that. So I'm very careful now. But that's the that's the why did God let me go 15 years? And I often wonder that. And it was because God knew the plans that he had for me. And he knew what I needed to learn because of some of the men I'm sitting with today. And because of some of those journeys that I took, I get to be Jesus with skin on. And I love that. th there's nothing better. Matthew Wingo: It's I I think in the a way the the trials are what refine us. So I I like to say that our character is refined in the crucible of consistency and we have to get to that point where we're consistently doing the right things. But if we don't know what those right things are, or the Lord has not yet g gotten our attention to where we can crucify our flesh daily, right, and die to self, pick up our daily cross and Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Matthew Wingo: and carry that up Calvary for ourselves each day to the flesh, to crucify the flesh every day. That's a hard challenge. That's an ongoing our mission to be Christlike. That should be our ultimate goal. That is our ultimate goal is to be more Christ like. And that's a daily challenge to do that. But you're right in that had I not come out of my prodigal season and walked directly into what I call my Job season of losing absolutely everything over about a three and a half year period. I would not be in the chair I'm in today with this the story that he's given me today, the experiences I had. And he could not have shaped my character in the way of of doing it. But it's those consistent things each day, a consistent Bible reading, a consistent quiet time, consistent prayer life, building some consistency in there. And it's not that it's every day is perfect, but it's building that consistency that is refined and shaped my character. And it's also being able to learn faith through the trials, through all of these things, going, Lord, when does this end? How much more is coming my way before I get Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Matthew Wingo: on the other side of this? And you know, it it's also a beautiful thing to look back and go, I wouldn't I wouldn't change, I wouldn't change the last three and a half years, how hard it's been because of what the Lord's been able to do and restoring relationship with my family, restoring relationships with those I've hurt and have hurt. me along the way, making amends, being able to learn these things and and put these lessons learned into a a book format. That none of that could have happened had I I not been on this journey and had to deal with a dry desert daily and and what was happening Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Matthew Wingo: around me. And yet there's been blessing and provision and in this constant grace that I've known he was with me through each and every step of it. It's It's the most amazing part of this journey. Michael Chestnut: Yep. And I thank God so much for the other broken men that he had putting into my life because, I have heard people other churches say we don't want celebrate recovery at our church because we'll bring addicts in, some of those men who have come through those doors have been some of the roughest characters I have met. But some of the most godly men I have ever met too. And they are real. They don't sugarcoat it. They're not got all the Christian Baptist words that I grew up with. And they may not know what sanctification is, but they lay it straight. And you see the power of God. I watched a guy come in drunk and crying and all this stuff. And every week after week crying and crying. And then to watch six months down the road, him standing in front of everyone, praying and and praying over other people, the power of God. none of us are perfect. No one is perfect. And these people that come through the door, they're not perfect. But I look at them and thank God for them because some of those men, their stories. You'll sit there and listen and be like, what? And then but you see God all in that story. And because of their story, I get to see Jesus in a different light. Matthew Wingo: Amen. Amen to that. That that is the power of testimony. you know, I I know the Bible well, but I by no means consider myself a biblical scholar. but you know what I I can be a scholar in, and that's what Jesus has done for me. And that's what he to your point, that's what each and every man I've watched, and every every woman that has given their testimony after walking through the program. And they stand up there and they give their testimony. And It's all about what Christ has done. And you know what? They may not be a they may not know all the big churchy words, but they know they know what I was this way and now I'm this way. I was once Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Matthew Wingo: like this and now I'm like this. And the only difference is Jesus in between. And that gives people hope because every time someone gives their testimony, someone comes up to them afterward and says, That's my story. That's really clear. That's almost the same story I have. And all of a sudden they get hope. Wow, if if he can overcome that, if she can overcome that. I can too. And it gives them that hope, maybe for the first time. Some of these people will walk in and they've never had hope before. And then they walk out change and that gives others, that inspires others, that encourages others and is a such a testimony to bring them hope and ultimately lead to healing and restoration for them. And the message continues to grow from there. Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Well, listen, before we go, I want to know about your book. Matthew Wingo: So the book's called Turn Right, The Pursuit of Noble Things. When I first started the idea of writing, I had years of of a corporate career of collection of notes and I had years of Bible study and and podcasts and all kinds of notes from my quiet times and things the Lord had been showing to me. And I really wanted to put this like real academic. I had this academic title to it, you know, the relentless pursuit of God. And it was just was part of the title and it was this really like heady kind of thing about all this knowledge, and it was kind of a knowledge dump in there of all These things about God. And the Lord pressed on me Romans 15 18, where the Apostle Paul says, Where I will venture to speak of nothing but what Christ has accomplished through me. And that totally changed the perspective of it. It's now a as much autobiography and testimony as it is what the Lord has spoken to me and taught me along the way. But that's really the whole impetus for the book falls into that. Nothing but what Christ has accomplished through me. And I tried To stay very true to that in there is hey, these are the lessons he's taught me. And that's why I say it's my experience, but his story, and use my experience to further his kingdom, to further his story. it's raw, it's it's gritty, it it talks about where the title comes from, is pretty evident, right? When you start reading the book, it it goes into the lessons I've learned. And what I didn't want to do, and this is where the conviction came in with my very academic title I had originally. It's turn right the pursuit of noble things, which is based on Isaiah 30 to 8. But he who is noble plans noble things, and on noble things he stands. And it compares and contrasts that to the fool and the rogue, the two verses prior to it. And you realize, you know, we all live our lives in some ways as all of the three, but we're called to nobility. That's who we are in Christ. That is our identity as a son or daughter. We're called we are nobles. It's time to start living our identity of that. And so to put my testimony in there and what I experienced, but also the lessons along the way, it's not a self-help guide. I I didn't want to do the, you know, 10 steps to a new you, 90 days, and you'll be a new person, because that's not how I've seen the Lord work. It's just follow this formula and you're suddenly this new and improved version of you. It's the things he's taught me along the way. And I think that's personal. You could probably write pages of lessons he's given you because that's what you needed to learn. But if they're channel markers to help guide you and say, hey, these are the noble things as the Lord has shown them to me and led to where I am today. And now the passion to get that out there, that's really the focus and effort behind the book. when he told me to write and I had writer's block until he gave me the green light to write it, but totally changed the the way the book was laid out. I wanted it to be fun and conversational, even when it's hard. But I wanted to just be thought provoking and say, Hey, could could this apply, is this a lesson I could use in my life and not Not just a bunch of steps to follow and and follow this guide and you'll be new and improved because we already have the book that already tells us that. We already have scripture, we have the holy word of God. We don't need another self-help book out there, but if I can through my story share what I've learned and give hope in there, in this journey, if the journey ends with hope and a few takeaways to help. help guide on our individual past, then then the book is successful. And even if that's just for one person, I consider it a complete success and worth the effort. Michael Chestnut: Yeah. And st stories are powerful. there's power in those stories. And the one problem that I see with men, and I had this problem, was we don't read. We don't like to read a lot of times. And I've been encouraging men to read more. pick up good stories of faith, of what God has done The enemy knows if I can keep you from reading, I'll keep you from growing. So I've really been encouraging men to do that. Usually when I have a guest on, I've already read their book and I had come across you and I had not yet, but that is one of the the bucket list things for the next couple months here is to read that. Because especially I see a lot of the similarities in us and I know that could be something that that can touch. And maybe after that that little journey I might have you on for a clip to discuss that. Matthew Wingo: Well, sure, sure. And and some encouragement, some encouragement for the men reluctant to read, listening to this, the people reluctant to read. It was written intentionally in very short snippets. I kept chapters short. I do not like reading books that have a lot of fluff and and tell me 10 stories to make the same point, like get to the point, and let's move on to the next thing. So the entire thing is depending on your speed of reading, two to three hours tops. You could read it cover Michael Chestnut: wow. Okay. Matthew Wingo: to cover. I tried to keep it very simple, very short section. So if you need to come back to it, it's very easy to come back to. And that was intentional to to make it more because we're very busy. It's very hard Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Matthew Wingo: to sit down and say I'm gonna take two hours and read. read, but can I take 10 minutes this morning and read a couple sections? And I intentionally put that, put a few reflection points in there to make you stop and pause maybe and reflect on that and then go on to the next thing. And just I I'm not big. I didn't want to write War and Peace, definitely. I don't think many people have have the attention span. But it will be available on Amazon. It'll be available at Barnes Noble, both hard copy, soft copy, and digital versions. And then it'll be available on the Apple Books and the Google Play Store. So they'll have it as well. And then potentially an audible version of it coming down there, an audio version of it coming soon as well. Michael Chestnut: So Well, Matthew, thank you so much for being on here. I appreciate it. And we will have a lot of the information we talked about in our description. And to my listeners, until next time, just keep being intentional.