Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Mommy bludgeons 2-year-old son, then dumps body in woods: Cops

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Mommy bludgeons 2-year-old son, then dumps body in woods: Cops · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:06
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We have been helping trying
0:13
Speaker 1: to find a two year old little boy, Jordan. Bill Vow.
0:19
Speaker 1: It's not the way I wanted the search to end.
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Speaker 1: In the last hours, the mother of the two year
0:24
Speaker 1: old boy has been charged with homicide. Lord of Department
0:29
Speaker 1: of Law Enforcement has canceled the Amber alert for Jordan Bellevue.
0:35
Speaker 1: Jordan has been found in a wooded area behind me I,
0:41
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories, Thank you for being
0:45
Speaker 1: with us. Yesterday we reported that the two year old
0:48
Speaker 1: had gone missing, that mom had accepted a ride with
0:51
Speaker 1: a man she didn't know. She knew him only by
0:54
Speaker 1: antoine in a white Toyota Cameray with a black grill
1:00
Speaker 1: with rosary bees with a air freshener hanging from the
1:04
Speaker 1: rear view mirror. And he had dreadlocks, and he had
1:08
Speaker 1: gold teeth, and he was wearing a baseball cap. Even
1:12
Speaker 1: down to the description of his clothes, it was all
1:15
Speaker 1: a lie. It was all a lie. Mommy insisting that
1:21
Speaker 1: she had been knocked out with multiple blows to the face.
1:24
Speaker 1: She was found ostensibly passed out unconscious in a wooded
1:29
Speaker 1: area in Florida. Now we know it was all A
1:33
Speaker 1: roofs according to police, that the little boy was not
1:38
Speaker 1: missing at all, that Jordan's in fact, had been killed.
1:43
Speaker 1: With me is Ellen Colauren on the story? Ellen, how
1:49
Speaker 1: did they determine the mommy was involved? The police found
1:52
Speaker 1: bloody clothes in the home, and in searching for the boy, um,
1:57
Speaker 1: they discovered that she had actually legend him, made up
2:01
Speaker 1: the whole story about him being missing, and hid those
2:06
Speaker 1: roomains in the very same woods where she said that
2:09
Speaker 1: she woke up. That's right, that's my understanding as well. Ellen,
2:12
Speaker 1: twenty one year old mom Shourie Stinson was extremely deceptive,
2:17
Speaker 1: according to Logo Police Lieutenant Randall Cheney. He says during
2:22
Speaker 1: a news conference that Stinson lied to police. Ashley Wilcott,
2:27
Speaker 1: juvenile judge, lawyer, founder of Child crime watch dot com. Actually,
2:33
Speaker 1: I know when I read this about baby Jordan being found,
2:37
Speaker 1: I learned that Jordan had been in foster care. Why
2:42
Speaker 1: in the h E double L did they give him
2:45
Speaker 1: back to this mother now he's dead? Ashley? Right, So
2:49
Speaker 1: in Florida, in any state, really, they return or reunify
2:52
Speaker 1: a child with a parent if the child has been
2:54
Speaker 1: abused or neglected, if the parent complete certain items to
2:57
Speaker 1: show that they're not going to further abuse, to neglect
3:00
Speaker 1: the child, or cure the grounds of deprivation or dependency.
3:03
Speaker 1: And so in this particular case, it looks it begs
3:07
Speaker 1: looking at the record and the good not the good thing.
3:09
Speaker 1: When a child dies, then there's a right for meeting
3:11
Speaker 1: it to get hold of the records to see what happened,
3:14
Speaker 1: because clearly they now need to look back at those
3:16
Speaker 1: records to see was this yet another system fail where
3:20
Speaker 1: the child should not have been returned to the mother
3:22
Speaker 1: because she admitted after the fact, yes, she was frustrated,
3:26
Speaker 1: so she struck the child, causing his head to hit
3:28
Speaker 1: a wall. Well, guess what, Nancy, you know as well
3:30
Speaker 1: as I do, to cause a child's head to get
3:32
Speaker 1: injured to that extent with the traumatic injury to the head,
3:36
Speaker 1: it is not striking a child. It is really a
3:40
Speaker 1: great deal force required. That's the line too. I mean,
3:42
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum dreading to the Cold Case Research Institute, your
3:46
Speaker 1: job is putting together cases that have been neglected or overlooked,
3:51
Speaker 1: or simply the cops didn't know about it. For her
3:54
Speaker 1: to say she became frustrated with him because of some
3:58
Speaker 1: type of an injury to his right leg. She says
4:01
Speaker 1: she struck the child in the face. You know what,
4:04
Speaker 1: if anybody got near my children and struck them in
4:07
Speaker 1: the face, they would be looking down the wrong end
4:09
Speaker 1: of a gunbarrel. I can tell you that much. She says,
4:12
Speaker 1: she struck the child in the face, causing his head
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Speaker 1: to strike a wall. That the blow caused the child
4:21
Speaker 1: to have seizures during the night. Now I've gotten a
4:23
Speaker 1: hold of the police half of David, and that's what
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Speaker 1: it says. That is total b s. Cheryl to have
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Speaker 1: seizures in the night, that must have been some blow
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Speaker 1: cheryld Oh, there's no question, Nancy. In the autopsy is
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Speaker 1: gonna answer a lot of questions for us, specifically how
4:39
Speaker 1: many times that child was struck in the head and
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Speaker 1: just what he went through during that night before he died.
4:46
Speaker 1: You know, it's breaking my heart on this to Dr
4:49
Speaker 1: Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrists joining me also out of Flora.
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Speaker 1: This is in your backyard, Daniel. But she we we
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Speaker 1: don't know right now whether the bay Be boy was
5:01
Speaker 1: dead or alive. Her mommy just laid him down in
5:04
Speaker 1: the woods and left him, left him there. Yes, Nancy
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Speaker 1: it's a horrific crime, and just to think about the
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Speaker 1: suffering this child went through is just it's heartbreaking, really heartbreaking.
5:15
Speaker 1: I mean, you just leave your child out in the
5:18
Speaker 1: middle of nowhere. I mean, John Limley, wasn't this in
5:22
Speaker 1: a heavily wooded area where she claimed she had been left.
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Speaker 1: In fact, she left the child there exactly. She mentioned
5:30
Speaker 1: that when she woke up on Sunday morning, she was
5:33
Speaker 1: in the middle of this sort of park setting and
5:36
Speaker 1: her child was nowhere to be found. Well, you make
5:39
Speaker 1: it sound so ideally. That's certainly putting perfume on the pig,
5:42
Speaker 1: John Linley in a park setting. It makes it sound
5:45
Speaker 1: like they went out for a picnic and whoops, he
5:47
Speaker 1: wandered off. That's not what happened. She struck him so hard,
5:51
Speaker 1: by her own admission, he had seizures all during the night,
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Speaker 1: and then his body just turns up in the same
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Speaker 1: wooded area where she was. Police find bloody clothes at
6:02
Speaker 1: her apartment. Here's the other thing. Does anybody but me
6:06
Speaker 1: remember Susan Smith and her elaborate story about how again
6:13
Speaker 1: she claims the black guy comes up to her at
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Speaker 1: a stop sign in the middle of nowhere, and takes
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Speaker 1: her children and pushes puts the yeah for no reason.
6:25
Speaker 1: Here we go again, same old thing. This time she
6:28
Speaker 1: had this incredibly elaborate description of the guy that took
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Speaker 1: her son. Did anybody notice that the big lie she told?
6:39
Speaker 1: What about it? Bober? I mean, look, you know, she's
6:41
Speaker 1: trying to fill in the gap to the story, and
6:43
Speaker 1: uh didn't work for Susan Smith, And it didn't work
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Speaker 1: for her either, all the way down to the name
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Speaker 1: that she made up for the for the culprit, as
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Speaker 1: many details as possible to make it seem like it
6:54
Speaker 1: was real, you know. And that that that's the thing,
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Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick. If you're gonna lie, keep it simple, all right,
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Speaker 1: because you're gonna get all tangled up in your lie.
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Speaker 1: And that's exactly what mommy did here. Yeah. It's one
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Speaker 1: of those things, Nancy, where sometimes some criminals think it's
7:09
Speaker 1: worth it to admit to some conduct, and maybe in
7:12
Speaker 1: an admission and early admission of guilt will be admitigant.
7:16
Speaker 1: But you're absolutely right, not in a case like this,
7:19
Speaker 1: and especially not in a case or at least admitting
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Speaker 1: to some of the conduct even makes it more cruel
7:24
Speaker 1: and more inhumane. Instead, of taking him to the hospital,
7:27
Speaker 1: she took him to the woods to let him die
7:29
Speaker 1: alone in the woods. So you're absolutely right, she did
7:32
Speaker 1: herself no favors, but it also makes it easier for
7:35
Speaker 1: us to prove that type of a case, so justice
7:37
Speaker 1: will be swift sooner rather than later. Here's the thing
7:41
Speaker 1: I guarantee, as Cheryl McCullum, they're gonna play this down
7:45
Speaker 1: and she'll get something like volunteery or involuntary because I'm
7:50
Speaker 1: telling you and I don't like it, but I've witnessed
7:53
Speaker 1: it when it's an infant or a child's life. Somehow,
7:58
Speaker 1: the mom always walk saw, she walks away. She might
8:02
Speaker 1: get five years if it were an adult that she
8:04
Speaker 1: killed and she plotted to kill them, Oh it would
8:08
Speaker 1: be a different story. But Cheryl, she's probably gonna get volunteery,
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Speaker 1: involuntary and just walk But she is lying because those
8:16
Speaker 1: bloody clothes tell a different story than what she's telling.
8:20
Speaker 1: How long do you think that child suffered? Baby Jordan's
8:23
Speaker 1: suffered with that evil mother years? Years. Need to hear
8:28
Speaker 1: the bottom line, the person that is supposed to protect
8:30
Speaker 1: you the most is your mama that failed in this situation.
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Speaker 1: She didn't do that she's a perpetrator. They took that
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Speaker 1: baby to save him and brought him back. And what
8:44
Speaker 1: they're gonna have to show in court is, hour by
8:48
Speaker 1: hour what happened to him. The seizures, the injury because
8:53
Speaker 1: of the seizures, does fractured soul, the repeated hits, the vomiting,
9:00
Speaker 1: ever happened to him. They're going to have to show
9:03
Speaker 1: hour by hour and then let that jury vote. The
9:09
Speaker 1: mother's arrest ends a two days search for baby Jordan's,
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Speaker 1: who had been reported when mommy first called nine one
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Speaker 1: one with her big lie. Little Jordan's body was found
9:23
Speaker 1: late in the afternoon in the woods east of Lake
9:27
Speaker 1: Avenue and McMullan Road, behind a baseball field at a
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Speaker 1: Largo sports complex. The police aren't devastated, but this is
9:37
Speaker 1: what you can do. Police are looking now for any witness,
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Speaker 1: any witness whatsoever that can come to court, come to police,
9:49
Speaker 1: even if anonymous, and say what they saw. And if
9:54
Speaker 1: you know something but you're not willing to come forward,
9:58
Speaker 1: think about this. The child's body was deteriorating out in
10:05
Speaker 1: a wooded area, left dead or four dead by mommy.
10:13
Speaker 1: If you have information, please called Largo. P D seven
10:17
Speaker 1: to seven five eight seven six seven three zero. She
10:21
Speaker 1: revealed that she used the liquid, which is normally like
10:24
Speaker 1: eye drops, put it in his food, and she did
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Speaker 1: that without his knowledge. We don't have a clear cut
10:31
Speaker 1: reason why she committed the crime that she did. The
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Speaker 1: crime that she is accused of is murdering her husband
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Speaker 1: with eye drops. No less, forget about the fact she
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Speaker 1: tried to kill him two years ago with a crossbow.
10:46
Speaker 1: That's a whole another can of worms. I Nancy Grace,
10:48
Speaker 1: this is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
10:51
Speaker 1: Local police perplexed about the death of the husband until
10:58
Speaker 1: toxicology reports indicates something very very unusual with me. Now,
11:04
Speaker 1: Ellen Colauren with crime online dot Com, Ellen, what happened?
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Speaker 1: Lana Clayton, who's uh churchgoing woman um in her fifties,
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Speaker 1: lives at an upscale home in South Carolina. She tells
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Speaker 1: police that she came into the home front after mowing
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Speaker 1: the lawn and found her husband at the bottom of
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Speaker 1: the stairs. She claimed that he had vertico and he
11:30
Speaker 1: had been sick and then he fell down the stairs
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Speaker 1: and he was dead. But autopsy revealed that he had
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Speaker 1: a high levels of the chemical ingredient and eye drops
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Speaker 1: in his blood, and it turns out she admits to
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Speaker 1: poisoning him over the course of three days by putting
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Speaker 1: the drops in his water. That's right, This young wife,
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Speaker 1: a Bible study attending now charged with murder after poisoning
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Speaker 1: her husband by sneaking eye drops into his food. You
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Speaker 1: know what's interesting to you, Sheryl McCollum, director of the
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Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute. People love to talk about, Oh,
12:05
Speaker 1: she went to Sunday school, a church go where That's
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Speaker 1: the first thing Ellen Claurin said. I even said, a
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Speaker 1: Bible study attendee. You know what this is. This is
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Speaker 1: why we do that, because you expect someone that is religious,
12:19
Speaker 1: that believes in doing good, or should believe in doing good,
12:24
Speaker 1: does something so awful. That hypocrisy, that dichotomy is what
12:28
Speaker 1: is so irritating. I mean, in addition to the dead body,
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Speaker 1: but it really gets under your skin and a jury
12:36
Speaker 1: is gonna hate it. They're gonna hate it, Nancy. But
12:38
Speaker 1: it can also be part of her stick. It could
12:40
Speaker 1: be part of her time. Of course, that's how she
12:43
Speaker 1: wants to come off. Is this middle aids church going
12:47
Speaker 1: sweet never been arrested before woman. But the bottom line
12:51
Speaker 1: is she has attempted to kill her husband. Another time
12:56
Speaker 1: she shot him in the head with a crows while
13:01
Speaker 1: he slept. Now, if you just let that marinate for
13:05
Speaker 1: a minute, Okay, anybody that can look at her the same,
13:09
Speaker 1: I would have to question their sanity because the take
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Speaker 1: across bow and load. It ain't easy to aim at it.
13:16
Speaker 1: Somebody that's laying down and sound asleep is stupid. So
13:20
Speaker 1: for the thing to go off by accident or whatever
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Speaker 1: story she gave them is really difficult for me to believe.
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Speaker 1: And now in three days time, she goes back to
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Speaker 1: the cabinet, she gets the eye drops, she puts it
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Speaker 1: into food. For three days she watches this man gets
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Speaker 1: sicker and sicker and sicker. And she could have stopped
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Speaker 1: at it any time, and she did not. You know,
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Speaker 1: to doctor Daniel bober Uh forensic psychiatrist, and correct me
13:51
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, Dr bober To be a psychiatrist, you
13:53
Speaker 1: have to be a medical doctor first, and then specialists
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Speaker 1: and specialized in psychiatry, right, yes, Nanci, Well that's very
14:01
Speaker 1: irritating to the rest of us that want to diagnose
14:03
Speaker 1: this ourselves. But okay, the eye drops, it's my understanding
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Speaker 1: just as a lay person that eye drops make your
14:14
Speaker 1: eyes not red because they restrict the blood vessels, including
14:18
Speaker 1: the blood vessels that look read or burst in your eyes.
14:23
Speaker 1: And by pouring this into his food in large quantities,
14:28
Speaker 1: that did the same thing to the blood vessels in
14:31
Speaker 1: and around his heart. Yes, Nancy, tetra hydra lene is
14:34
Speaker 1: the chemical and eye drops, and it works on a
14:37
Speaker 1: part of the body called the sympathetic nervous system, and
14:39
Speaker 1: the sympathetic nervous system is responsible for things like heart
14:43
Speaker 1: rate and blood pressure. And yes, you are correct. The
14:46
Speaker 1: chemical causes vaso constriction, or a constriction of the vessels,
14:50
Speaker 1: and it does do the same thing in a more
14:53
Speaker 1: general way which can cause a heart attack, stroke, coma, seizures,
14:58
Speaker 1: and ultimately death. We are walking about a South Carolina
15:01
Speaker 1: woman who now admits to spiking her husband's food from
15:06
Speaker 1: July nineteen on spiking it not with poison arsenal rat poison, no,
15:13
Speaker 1: with eye drops. Stephen Clayton was found with high levels
15:18
Speaker 1: of tetra hydras alene in his system according to the
15:22
Speaker 1: eyetopsy autopsy. I'm really amazed, actually, Wilcott, did they even
15:26
Speaker 1: tested for that at the autopsy. That's not something that's
15:29
Speaker 1: normally tested and in that bizarre So I was just
15:33
Speaker 1: gonna say, obviously, I've never wanted to kill my husband,
15:35
Speaker 1: because I certainly haven't googled how do I do it?
15:37
Speaker 1: With eye drops? So it's really an unusual um way
15:41
Speaker 1: to murder someone. First of all. Second, ball law enforcement
15:44
Speaker 1: had to have had some kind of information from the
15:46
Speaker 1: investigation indicating that, hey, this is something that might have
15:50
Speaker 1: been used, because otherwise I don't think they would have
15:53
Speaker 1: tested it in an autopsy as a standard autopsy, except
15:57
Speaker 1: Ashley for the little crossbow, And I mean, how can
16:00
Speaker 1: you paint that as an accident? What do we know
16:04
Speaker 1: about that? Ellen Colorine tell me about the crossbow two
16:07
Speaker 1: thousand and sixteen. She she's downstairs. She claims that she's
16:11
Speaker 1: trying it's the middle of the night. She claims she's
16:13
Speaker 1: trying to reload the crossbow. I don't even know what
16:17
Speaker 1: she's doing with the crossbow in the first place, goes
16:19
Speaker 1: upstairs to ask her husband for help, and then just
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Speaker 1: accidentally hits him in the head with the crossbow. Cheryl
16:26
Speaker 1: McCullum as he's so desperate for love, he stayed in
16:29
Speaker 1: it after being shot in the head with a crossbow
16:32
Speaker 1: and surviving. Can we just go back to her statement,
16:35
Speaker 1: I was trying to load it and then I shot
16:37
Speaker 1: him in the head with it. Looks like you got
16:40
Speaker 1: it loaded, sister, nice job. I mean, what are we doing?
16:43
Speaker 1: Looks like you got it loaded. We'll take a listen
16:46
Speaker 1: to this from our friends at Inside Edition. She was
16:49
Speaker 1: a grieving widow who claimed her wealthy husband suffered a
16:52
Speaker 1: fatal fall at home, but police say church going Lawna
16:56
Speaker 1: Clayton poisoned him with of all things I drop, available
17:00
Speaker 1: over the counter at every pharmacy in America. Court documents
17:04
Speaker 1: say the fifty two year old mother of two confess
17:07
Speaker 1: to administering the poison to him in his water over
17:10
Speaker 1: a three day period. Millionaire businessman Stephen Clayton lived with
17:14
Speaker 1: his wife in a South Carolina mansion that is a
17:17
Speaker 1: replica of George Washington's Mount Vernon plantation. His wife's alleged
17:22
Speaker 1: poisoning scheme was straight out of the two thousand five
17:25
Speaker 1: movie Wedding Crashers Drops, Thank You. Owen Wilson puts eye
17:30
Speaker 1: drops into Bradley Cooper's drinks, sending him running to the bathroom.
17:35
Speaker 1: Funny stuff, but in actuality, the chemical in eye drops
17:39
Speaker 1: works great on the eyes, but if swallowed insignificant amounts,
17:43
Speaker 1: it attacks the nervous system and can be deadly. Chills,
17:48
Speaker 1: um sweats, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea. Ah, I felt awful. Ginger
17:55
Speaker 1: Watson knows what it's like to be poisoned by eye drops.
17:58
Speaker 1: When she was a manager at It's a Hut Inleven,
18:01
Speaker 1: a disgruntled coworker spiked her soda with eyedrops. She was
18:05
Speaker 1: hospitalized but fortunately survived. Fifed an underlying medical condition. Or
18:11
Speaker 1: I had gotten a little more of the drug um,
18:14
Speaker 1: I could have been seriously injured or died. Now, a
18:18
Speaker 1: product seen in so many medicine cabinets has allegedly been
18:22
Speaker 1: used by a wife to get rid of her husband.
18:24
Speaker 1: The dead man's family members said they are shocked and
18:27
Speaker 1: mortified by the cause of Steven's death. All our family
18:31
Speaker 1: and friends know how much he loved his wife and
18:34
Speaker 1: how devoted he was to her. Well, here's the other
18:37
Speaker 1: problem for her to actually Willcott Judge, lawyer, founder of
18:41
Speaker 1: child crime watch dot com. She is a nursing employee
18:45
Speaker 1: at the U S Department of Veterans Affairs. She knew
18:48
Speaker 1: what she was doing She can't say, oh, it was
18:50
Speaker 1: an accident. It's clear, the water is clear. I made
18:54
Speaker 1: an accident. I didn't realize what I was doing. Not
18:58
Speaker 1: uh m hmmm. She's a nurse employee. Yeah, And so
19:01
Speaker 1: the prosecution is going to use that information, as we know,
19:04
Speaker 1: to show that there was premeditation, right, that it was
19:07
Speaker 1: a deliberate act, that she knew how to do it,
19:09
Speaker 1: she knew what to do, she knew the chemical would
19:11
Speaker 1: be bad, she knew how to poison him. And again,
19:13
Speaker 1: it wasn't one day, three drops. It was over a
19:15
Speaker 1: period of days, well planned by her. Well, the other
19:18
Speaker 1: issue is money, Cheryl McCullum, Cold Case Research Institute. Why
19:24
Speaker 1: do rich people have so many problems? Can't she just
19:28
Speaker 1: go enjoy her money and swim a couple of laps
19:31
Speaker 1: in their pool and let the pool boy bringer some
19:35
Speaker 1: you know, finger foods. Why can't they just be happy?
19:38
Speaker 1: Why are people rich people have the worst time with
19:42
Speaker 1: their money, especially sharing it. Well, maybe that's why Walt
19:45
Speaker 1: and I are so happy, we are so broke. But
19:47
Speaker 1: here's the thing. This woman, again, it wasn't disappeared of days.
19:55
Speaker 1: It was years that she tried to kill this man.
19:58
Speaker 1: She's been plotting and stem and trying for years. There's
20:04
Speaker 1: the thing about the motive. We don't know the motives yet,
20:07
Speaker 1: but we do know she confess mighty quick, so the
20:09
Speaker 1: motive is gonna become clear the more they delve into
20:13
Speaker 1: her background. It's the same motive. All rich people have money, money.
20:18
Speaker 1: They're like dragons uh in the Canterbury Tales. They will
20:25
Speaker 1: kill to amass the money, and then they sit on
20:28
Speaker 1: the money, guarding it like it's an egg for the
20:30
Speaker 1: rest of their lives. Long story, short motive. Why didn't
20:35
Speaker 1: you even say motive, Sharyl McCallum. You know, under the
20:38
Speaker 1: law of the state doesn't have to prove motive. It's
20:40
Speaker 1: either a boyfriend or it's or it's money. But what
20:43
Speaker 1: about this? I love this. When it came time to
20:46
Speaker 1: plan the funeral, actually will caught. She goes just has
20:49
Speaker 1: to have it in the backyard. It's like a barbecue.
20:53
Speaker 1: She had the funeral. She just did it in the backyard, Ashley,
20:56
Speaker 1: or she did because she didn't care about him. She
20:58
Speaker 1: killed them. She could have given a hoot. I'm surprised
21:00
Speaker 1: she even had a funeral. Well, that's well put. You know,
21:03
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, California Prosecutor. Very often, when there's a suspicion
21:08
Speaker 1: as to the cause or mode of death, cops look
21:11
Speaker 1: at what goes down at the funeral. They didn't have
21:14
Speaker 1: to look far here, Wendy. One of the things that
21:16
Speaker 1: struck me about that backyard funeral is for a church
21:19
Speaker 1: going Bible study lady, she did not even have it
21:21
Speaker 1: in a church, and reminds me of one of the
21:24
Speaker 1: best Billy Sunday quotes. Sitting in a church doesn't make
21:27
Speaker 1: you a Christian anymore than sitting in a garage makes
21:29
Speaker 1: you a car And in terms of being a mitigant
21:32
Speaker 1: or an aggravant when it comes to sentencing, this is
21:35
Speaker 1: going to be an aggravant. The callous nature of her
21:37
Speaker 1: behavior after the fact will certainly come into play and
21:40
Speaker 1: determining how much time she serves. This wasn't an isolated instant.
21:43
Speaker 1: This was apparently a three day, sophisticated plot designed to
21:49
Speaker 1: to cause his death. So this does not speak to
21:51
Speaker 1: voluntary man's law. Ellen Laurin, have you seen this house?
21:54
Speaker 1: It looks like the White House. Yeah, it's absolutely beautiful.
21:57
Speaker 1: It's a million dollar home. Um and and on the
22:01
Speaker 1: surface things looked things look pretty nice for this couple,
22:04
Speaker 1: but obviously below the surface it was anything. But it's
22:07
Speaker 1: just hard for me to get past the incident with
22:10
Speaker 1: the crossbow two years ago. Now, what kind of a
22:13
Speaker 1: mind does that reflect? Dr Daniel Bober Forensic psychiatrists don't
22:19
Speaker 1: give me a lot of Latin terms. Break it down, Bober,
22:24
Speaker 1: I mean, look at her m os number one a
22:28
Speaker 1: crossbow and number two I drops. I mean, that's pretty creative.
22:33
Speaker 1: You're dealing with someone who clearly doesn't feel a connection
22:36
Speaker 1: to living things, especially her own husband. And you know
22:39
Speaker 1: that funeral complete with Stakespeare and tiki torches. It's probably
22:43
Speaker 1: not something that shows a lot of sympathy on her part.
22:45
Speaker 1: So clearly, either you know, she had an ax to
22:48
Speaker 1: grind with him and that's been building up over years,
22:51
Speaker 1: or she's just someone who wanted to get the money
22:53
Speaker 1: and get out of the situation. But either way, it's
22:55
Speaker 1: pretty anti social and it's pretty psychopath Dr Bober. I
22:58
Speaker 1: don't mean to prive, but are you married, okay, f
23:04
Speaker 1: y I for your information. Whenever you do get married,
23:08
Speaker 1: please don't refer to your future wife as a quote situation. Okay,
23:13
Speaker 1: you want to get away from the situation, because she's
23:16
Speaker 1: not gonna like that. If my husband referred to our
23:19
Speaker 1: marriage as a situation, all h E double L would
23:23
Speaker 1: break loose. Okay, just remember that. That's just a note
23:28
Speaker 1: to self. Don't refer to your marriage or your relationship
23:31
Speaker 1: as a quote, okay, situation. So Ellen, what do we
23:35
Speaker 1: know about the marriage? Who's cheating and who wanted the money?
23:39
Speaker 1: And where did the money come from? Was it her money?
23:41
Speaker 1: I believe it was his money. Um. I'm not even
23:44
Speaker 1: sure that she was working at the time of the murder,
23:46
Speaker 1: but she she did work in the past. Well, we
23:48
Speaker 1: know something pretty important. In two thousand and ten, she
23:52
Speaker 1: reportedly posted a Facebook message saying that her husband had
23:57
Speaker 1: had an affair, but that she was going to stay
23:59
Speaker 1: with him. M Okay, there you go, Cheryl. I told
24:04
Speaker 1: you it was either a boyfriend or money. It's a girlfriend.
24:07
Speaker 1: He cheated. He cheated, But did he deserve the death penalty? Cheryl?
24:12
Speaker 1: You know hell has no fury. And I tell you
24:14
Speaker 1: when they when they do the autopsy, you're gonna see
24:17
Speaker 1: just how long she's been poisoning. And I've been It's
24:20
Speaker 1: much worse than three days you think. And what's the
24:23
Speaker 1: significance of that at trials Cheryl, Again, it shows what
24:26
Speaker 1: she's admitted to is not the whole story. I bet
24:31
Speaker 1: she has been mistreating him and poisoning him and trying
24:35
Speaker 1: to kill him for much longer than they believe. Now
24:38
Speaker 1: you know what's interesting to you. Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist,
24:42
Speaker 1: think about it. Nearly every poisoning case I have either
24:46
Speaker 1: handled or covered, and this goes all the way back
24:50
Speaker 1: to let's just say the Lynn Turner trial. Uh, that
24:53
Speaker 1: took place in my backyard where Lynn Turner killed one
24:57
Speaker 1: boyfriend and one husband by putting anti freeze in their
25:02
Speaker 1: lime jello. Okay, because any freeze is sweet and they
25:06
Speaker 1: never tasted it. Uh, it's seemingly, you know, stereo stereotypically
25:12
Speaker 1: a woman's crime. Why is that, Well, women tend to
25:15
Speaker 1: use poisoning more, whereas men tend to use firearms more. Um,
25:20
Speaker 1: firearms are generally is generally seen as a more aggressive way,
25:23
Speaker 1: if you will, a more violent, vicious way to kill someone.
25:26
Speaker 1: Not that using anti freeze is not vicious, but it's
25:29
Speaker 1: it's almost like suicides. Men tend to use firearms and
25:32
Speaker 1: women tend to overdose. So it just seems to be
25:36
Speaker 1: a gender difference in terms of the method used. Well,
25:38
Speaker 1: this is a death penalty jurisdiction, and laying in wait,
25:44
Speaker 1: which this would qualify for, is typically an aggravating circumstance.
25:49
Speaker 1: We will wait as justice unfolds. From misthing Lanna Clayton.
25:58
Speaker 1: We have been denied real access to the documents we
26:00
Speaker 1: need to advise German regular orders, which turns this hearing
26:04
Speaker 1: into a charade and the mockery of our norms. Well,
26:08
Speaker 1: Mr Chairman, I therefore moved to a journey this hearing. Okay, yeah, yeah,
26:44
Speaker 1: remember most of the dream. We're not any executive, Mr Chairman.
26:53
Speaker 1: I asked for a roll call vote on my motion
26:55
Speaker 1: to adjourney. It is happening right now. Protests, screaming, gnashing
27:01
Speaker 1: of teeth, switching of tails, A major protest happening right
27:06
Speaker 1: now over what one man, one judge who will sit
27:16
Speaker 1: for a lifetime on the bench of the US Supreme Court.
27:23
Speaker 1: You think it won't affect your life, Oh yes it will,
27:28
Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace, this is crime stories. Thank you for
27:31
Speaker 1: being with us. What you just heard were protesters interrupting
27:35
Speaker 1: proceedings at the Capitol as confirmation hearings are underway for
27:41
Speaker 1: the new U. S. Supreme Court judge position. Straight out
27:47
Speaker 1: to Ellen Colorain Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, what's
27:51
Speaker 1: the fuss um, As you said, it's been absolutely hear
27:54
Speaker 1: you laughing, you think it's funny, little girl. It's been
27:56
Speaker 1: absolute chaos on the on the Senate hearing or since yesterday.
28:01
Speaker 1: It's started out with protesters screaming Democratic senators demanding that
28:06
Speaker 1: the hearings be delayed. It's it's one of the most
28:10
Speaker 1: kadok things that we've seen because it's so heated and
28:13
Speaker 1: it's so contentious, and there's so much writing on this
28:17
Speaker 1: this one judge appointment. Well, here's the thing. Here's the thing.
28:21
Speaker 1: Joining me California prosecutor Wendy Patrick, Dr. Daniel Bober, m d.
28:25
Speaker 1: And psychiatrist and boy do we need to shrink judge
28:29
Speaker 1: and lawyer Ashley Willcott, and director of the Cold Case
28:33
Speaker 1: Research Institute Cheryl McCullum. You know, Cheryl, I'm just gonna
28:38
Speaker 1: come to you first. You're not a legal scholar, you're
28:40
Speaker 1: not a lawyer, but you know how as I do,
28:44
Speaker 1: how Supreme Court rulings affect criminal law, affects, what evidence
28:50
Speaker 1: gets into court, what evidence does not get into court.
28:52
Speaker 1: Do I have to even say us the miranda? Do
28:57
Speaker 1: I have to say Gideon versus is Wayne? Right? I
29:01
Speaker 1: mean Roe v. Wade, which is a whole another can
29:04
Speaker 1: of worms. It affects us in the courtroom every day.
29:08
Speaker 1: Who sits in that seat, and it's for life, It's
29:13
Speaker 1: for life. They get a d U Y, they get
29:15
Speaker 1: a parking ticket, they sit on the bench, Cheryl, that's
29:17
Speaker 1: not gonna change. Just like Jerry v. Ohio. It not
29:20
Speaker 1: only affects us in the courtroom, it affects us at
29:23
Speaker 1: the street level, the police officers. As soon as you
29:26
Speaker 1: engage with someone, whether or not you can priss when
29:29
Speaker 1: you need to read miranda and all the things going forward.
29:33
Speaker 1: This is a massive appointment, Nancy, life changing. Well, the
29:37
Speaker 1: other thing to Ashley Wilcott, Ashley, we all know their
29:42
Speaker 1: nine Supreme Court justices. Somebody's got to break a tie.
29:46
Speaker 1: Somebody has to break a tie on these cases. That
29:50
Speaker 1: means so much to us. Absolutely so. He is super
29:52
Speaker 1: conservative as we all know, um and he would be
29:56
Speaker 1: the tie breaker. And think about some of the things
29:59
Speaker 1: that he could be ruling on and being a time
30:00
Speaker 1: breaker aren't Just for instance, Roe v. Wade women's rights.
30:04
Speaker 1: It's really about the invasion of the government into personal rights,
30:09
Speaker 1: which affects everybody. You know what, I'm very torn because
30:14
Speaker 1: I'm hard on crime, but I'm not crazy about the
30:18
Speaker 1: government getting all up in my personal business. You know,
30:23
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Let me go to you,
30:25
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor Way, and how important is what's
30:29
Speaker 1: going on right now? It's gonna filter down to all
30:32
Speaker 1: of us. It's absolutely right, Nancy, It's very important. You know.
30:35
Speaker 1: We always say the Supreme Court justice that's a job
30:37
Speaker 1: of a lifetime because he's going to be there for
30:39
Speaker 1: the rest of his life, which is thirty plus years,
30:42
Speaker 1: no doubt. So it is a very big hey, hey, hey, hey,
30:46
Speaker 1: why is it almost always an old white guy. No
30:50
Speaker 1: offense to all you old white guys and young white
30:53
Speaker 1: guys listening right now. I love you guys. Without you,
30:56
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have a job because you're always killing people.
30:59
Speaker 1: But why do they all have to sit on the U. S.
31:02
Speaker 1: Supreme Court? Fifty three is young As I get older,
31:06
Speaker 1: as younger and younger. But one of the important things,
31:08
Speaker 1: I think what we're seeing in the hearing, we're really
31:10
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of them. I'm not saying him. I'm
31:13
Speaker 1: not saying he's old. I had personal knowledge, up close
31:18
Speaker 1: and personal knowledge of Supreme Court Justice Rnquist, who I
31:22
Speaker 1: believe would qualify as an old white guy. No offense
31:26
Speaker 1: to all you old white guys, because I was on
31:29
Speaker 1: laur of You that year and we had him come
31:31
Speaker 1: to Mercer as a speaker, and I being who otherwise
31:36
Speaker 1: got stuck because I'm missed a meeting with arranging all
31:38
Speaker 1: the refreshments, and I ordered all the cookies in the
31:41
Speaker 1: punch and the blah blah, and I got to meet
31:44
Speaker 1: ran Quist. He came up to me and started talking
31:46
Speaker 1: with his mouthful and spit cookies right on to my
31:49
Speaker 1: only nice dress. It was a royal silk, royal blue
31:52
Speaker 1: silk dress right there, right in the front ellen right there.
31:56
Speaker 1: That's my memory of rink Wuist. So I'm okay with old.
32:00
Speaker 1: I don't have a problem with that. But I just
32:02
Speaker 1: surprise me. We don't get that many minorities and that
32:06
Speaker 1: many women on the Supreme Court. But that's a whole
32:09
Speaker 1: another can of worms right now. What do you think, Wendy, Well,
32:13
Speaker 1: it looks like it's a The hearing is contentious, it's unprofessional.
32:17
Speaker 1: There's outbursts and and breaches of decorum all around. But
32:20
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, Nancy, I think it's
32:22
Speaker 1: gonna come down not to momentum, but math, and Kavanaugh
32:26
Speaker 1: appears to have the vote, so at the end of
32:27
Speaker 1: this circus, he will be confirmed. That's my prediction. I'll
32:31
Speaker 1: even predict what I did with Neil Gorsts that there's
32:33
Speaker 1: going to be a few Democrats, primarily the ones from
32:35
Speaker 1: red states, that are going to vote with the Republican majority.
32:38
Speaker 1: It's going to get more votes than people think, well
32:40
Speaker 1: as promised joining me Dr Daniel Bober, psychiatrist Dr Bober.
32:47
Speaker 1: Some of those protesters are dressed like handmaid's tail Now,
32:52
Speaker 1: I read the book when it I don't even know
32:54
Speaker 1: when it came out, but I read it. I guess
32:57
Speaker 1: in high school or college where women are subjugated in
33:01
Speaker 1: a future world to childbearing and if you can't have children,
33:06
Speaker 1: then you're not much use of anything. And all these
33:10
Speaker 1: women were dressed in the red handmaids outfit with the
33:13
Speaker 1: white looks like a nun hat and um. Now there
33:18
Speaker 1: are accusations that some of them were paid off to protests.
33:21
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true or not, but there
33:24
Speaker 1: this is a very visceral thing. People are angry on
33:28
Speaker 1: whichever side there on, and it's on a judge ship
33:31
Speaker 1: because many people know, Dr Bober, how serious this one
33:35
Speaker 1: position is. You know, Nancy, It's funny when people vote
33:38
Speaker 1: for president, the general public never thinks about the effect
33:42
Speaker 1: that their vote is going to have on the judiciary.
33:45
Speaker 1: But you realize, uh, with the current administration, that the
33:50
Speaker 1: judiciary is being reshaped in such a way that will continue,
33:53
Speaker 1: It will continue to affect us for generations. So I
33:55
Speaker 1: could see why passions are running high. I myself when
33:59
Speaker 1: I worked on Capitol Hill, I remember a lot of
34:01
Speaker 1: these protesters from from groups like Code Pink, you know,
34:05
Speaker 1: showing up in senatorial offices to let their feelings be known.
34:10
Speaker 1: So I can understand why passions run high, because the
34:12
Speaker 1: implications are so tremendous that I don't even think we
34:16
Speaker 1: realized the full weight of this until something, a test
34:18
Speaker 1: case comes out, eruptions, ongoing, protests, ongoing, is this major
34:23
Speaker 1: decision is being made right now, take a listen to this.
34:26
Speaker 1: A c Circuit is often referred to as the second
34:30
Speaker 1: second highest court in the land because it hears many
34:34
Speaker 1: critically important cases involving agency action and the separation of powers.
34:41
Speaker 1: During his time on the bench, Judge Cavanaugh has heard
34:44
Speaker 1: over a thousand cases. He's written more than three dred opinions.
34:49
Speaker 1: His opinions spanned nearly five thousand pages in length. But
34:55
Speaker 1: what what's remarkable about Judge Cavanaugh's judicial record is not
35:00
Speaker 1: just its length, but its depth. At its quality, Judge
35:05
Speaker 1: Kavanaugh has been a true fought leader. He's written powerful
35:09
Speaker 1: opinions on the separation of powers and administrative law. He's
35:14
Speaker 1: shown that he brings a fair minded approach to questions
35:16
Speaker 1: of criminal law and employment law. We wait as justice
35:20
Speaker 1: unfolds and the new U. S. Supreme Court justice is
35:23
Speaker 1: named Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off goodbye friend,