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Unleashing the Power of AI in Advertising with Nikki Lindgren · Skin Anarchy

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hey guys, welcome back to Stinker Anarchy.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is your host EXTA, and today is part two of our wonderful mini masterclass series that we are doing with Pennock, which is a wonderful company that is helping us understand, you know, ads and how they work, and not only for you know small businesses, but I think overall just we all want to understand these kind of things.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we have with us again Nikki Lindgren.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome back, Nikki.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to chat with you again.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Super excited to be here, Ecta.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I I want to kind of you know get started with something that I'm really curious about, which is this whole AI buzz, you know, that's been going on.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I I know that last time you told us a lot about the ad landscape and you told us a lot about things that kind of dictate what we should understand as the basics of running ads and understanding that that marketing component.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: But when it comes to AI, what should we know?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a really good question.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so over the last year and a half, a lot of the ad platforms have introduced uh types of campaigns that are heavily dictated by machine learning.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so the audience formulation, et cetera, is not something a media buyer needs to key in that they like Pepsi and they, you know, eat McDonald's or whatever the nuances is of your or of your persona.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now you just tell the campaign setup, like, hey, this is an e-commerce conversion campaign, and I want to hit a return on ad spend of you know 4x or whatever you're trying to put together as parameters, you feed that into the campaign, and then the campaign goes out and finds said person that they believe is going to take action.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's kind of like the reality of what the best campaign structure looks like on Meta these days and even Google these days.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, there's some other placements, obviously, like ads on TikTok, Contrus, Programmatic are still kind of scaling a little bit more favorable for media buyers inputting data about their persona, but you know, that's going to be a thing of the past soon enough with just machine learning getting better and better across all these ad platforms.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's the biggest shift.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, some brands question like, well, what does a media buyer do at this point?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so those are like the real conversations that are happening across the landscape that we see on a regular basis.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really interesting because, you know, with AI, I always wonder, you know, it's it's like, you know, does it do it itself?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure for me, I I didn't understand, you know, in terms of like, does it kind of take over and we don't really have to worry about it anymore?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess the question is really, how does this impact the strategy then for the ads, like the overall ad strategy?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think let me back up for a minute.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: So like when a brand is kind of building their growth mechanism and like their understanding of their customer, um, they still have to have a really deep, intimate knowledge of who their core persona is, their core customer is, what she or he looks like, where they shop, et cetera.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason that like that's never going away, right?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't think we know any brand founder or CMO who's like, I don't care who my persona is, like just go find them.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: But the reason that's going to stay so important is because the creative is the hero in any ad strategy now.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And um, given that the creative has to speak precisely to that persona.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, if you don't know your customer drinks Pepsi and eats McDonald's and you're talking to them about Coke and Burger King, like you're missing them, right?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, terrible examples, but I think it's tracking.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's why it's going to be so important from an ad strategy to continue to know your persona, not because the campaign model is going to put in those uh demographic and profile details, but because the creative team has to really vibe off of those insights and deliver against that persona.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's really interesting.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, in terms of AI, then does it help like in the long run to help brands like narrow down, like even if they know their focus, does it help them from what you've seen to like further narrow it down or refine it for better like performance?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're talking in 2024.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right now, it doesn't.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is this going to hold true in 2026 and beyond?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no idea, right?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like we've got we've seen so many swings in the marketplace.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, like at this moment in time, generally speaking, no, like narrowing down your audience targeting isn't going to be beneficial.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: But we'll still like if if even the machine learning campaign structure is not benefiting and giving us the results we want, we will still test out you know the detailed personas.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, there are instances where they will still win.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not that like move to this model and never, you know, vary from this model, like stay on this path because things do evolve and change.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, to answer your question, like there are instances in which it would still make sense to test out audience targeting, etc.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the general theme is machine learning campaigns called Advantage Plus Shopping on Meta and Performance Max on Google or the best performing campaigns.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's really interesting.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I think like, you know, I the big question then really is like for brands, where should really the majority of their time and energy go when it comes to growth from any kind of ads that they're trying to, you know, really gain something from, whether it's followers or, you know, impressions or whatever it might be, um, where should that energy be spent?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think first of all, just like aligning with the mind shift of the reality that we live in now.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: So like understanding that, you know, warming an audience with education and closing them with an offer, like those are things we have less control about.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: So like when we as marketers ask our clients, you know, to develop new assets with us, they're usually not in service of like top of funnel versus middle versus bottom, because the funnel is just like a few campaigns now, and they're not dictated by a position a person is in their uh you know awareness journey to convert to your business.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, with that, like uh re-education of some KPIs.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: So nowadays, marketing efficiency ratio or MER is the most important metric to be tracking at a high level, um, which is total e-commerce revenue divided by spend.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's sort of like our pulse, and we just need to educate leadership and upper management that that's the change that's going on in the marketplace.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Then from there, it's really fine-tuning that persona that we're having and helping our brands build, understanding what about said customer is having like questions or indecisions about purchasing you versus a competitor, whatever.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: So figuring out what those buyer decision questions are and you know, creating assets that solve and answer those buyer decision questions are going to be like the main focus, I would say, of a brand team to build a successful like ad, you know, machine, if you will.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: That makes sense.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's just uh, you know, a lot of times it's it's really like brands are trying to think of what they might believe is their target audience or what they might believe is the right approach.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there's a lot of learning that needs to happen there, you know, from at least from what I've seen from my perspective, is sometimes I get, I mean, I'm shown ads sometimes where I'm like, I'm not even the right person to target for this, you know.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like I wouldn't even uh, you know, kind of involve myself in that.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: But it's interesting.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, ads are really interesting to me.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I would just say that the uh yeah, the machine learning isn't gonna be perfect, right?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: So we're all exposed to ads probably on a pretty regular basis that aren't really perfect for us, but you know, the brand isn't spending it a a lot against you or the exposure you particularly had to that ad?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: The the goal is at scale to make sure, you know, we're hitting the brand objectives, whether it be a MER, a CAC, or a ROAS for the client.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And machine learning does allow you to do that in most cases.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: So then what type of brands really benefit from running like ads, like just ads management or creative management in-house versus going to like partner agencies?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think it comes down to what the subject matter expertise is in-house and then like the appetite room to be hiring in general, whether whether that be in-house freelancer or agency.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: What we found, and I believe we talked about this a bit on episode one together, part one together, was like really early stage businesses that are still trying to prove out product market fit, et cetera, and maybe don't have that much of earned or owned media coming through by way of organic social or SEO or PR creators, et cetera, um, they're going to struggle with paid until they have like a machine behind earned and owned.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's just like the landscape we're in today.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: So those brands probably are not going to benefit from working with too many costly partners because they're still kind of bootstrapping to figure out how to stack up anything that resembles long-term success from a paid perspective.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say, you know, brands that are spending less than like 7,000 a month on ads should probably find their own solutions for getting efficiency out of it.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then when brands are finally hitting a level of scale, let's say like 30 to 50k a month, that's where spend becomes a little bit more nuanced around like strategy and campaign structures.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where even in this machine learning world, there's just a lot going on from a campaign management and strategy perspective that makes an agency managing the buying and the programming much more beneficial.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's really interesting.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like in terms of brands that are maybe not there yet, you know what I mean?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're not at that stage yet where they can, where everything else is in place.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, can they still incorporate this, you know, this aspect of machine learning?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what do you think the steps are, you know, for a brand to take to get to a point where they've refined it to this point, where now they're ready for something like this?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think the first steps would be, you know, posting at a regular cadence interval on your social platforms and starting to see which ones get the most engagement organically, using those in the ads management as the actual assets for ads rather than creating ads from scratch would be my first recommendation.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you've already got a little bit of a learning from organic.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: You assume it's going to work well for paid, throw it into Advantage Plus Shopping campaign, see how that works on the meta landscape.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's set up for a conversion objective.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can see whether or not it converts, right?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you can kind of like refine what you're even doing on organic social in favor of what you want to do with paid ads.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I bring this up just because in the industry they're called boosts when you pick up organic social and use them as ads.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: And they are performing so much better right now than ads, because I think the mindset of the designer or you know, the creative strategist in some cases is ads have to look and feel still kind of different than organic content.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a huge misnomer because we know everyone's after engagement and like attention right now.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't get engagement and attention from ads, you get it from like whatever fun, trendy thing you find people doing on organic social.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that's usually why that would be the starting point for any smaller brand, just kind of dabbling in it is figure out what's working in organic and then launch that from an ad strategy perspective and and kind of figure out how to tune and scale from there.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's really interesting.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I like that you brought up the the boost thing because I I mean, I guess it for me, ads have evolved as well, right?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: As a consumer.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And back like a few years ago, it was more like structured in the way of like scripted stuff, you know, and now I see things all the time on social media, for example, that are just it's just normal content, but it's you know, it's boosted, it's an ad, you know, in a way.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you can click on it and you can go to a link or you can go to whatever um it's directing you towards.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: So that's very fascinating to see that kind of evolution over time.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I mean it kind of simplifies things from the brand side too, because now they don't have to think about, well, gosh, I need 15 new ads this month and I need 40 pieces of organic content.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, you need 40 pieces of organic content and we're gonna pick up 15 of them for ads.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's pretty much, you know, kind of simplifying the overall like noise and chaos of like, oh my God, how am I gonna create this many assets?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it makes sense.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I don't know if I asked you this last time, but in terms of like frequency of running ads, like what do you suggest for like a you know, small to medium-sized brand?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you think they should be running something every day, like, you know, or like how often should their content be turning over that they're boosting or putting out there in ad format?
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, you'll see this if any of your listeners use the tool like foreplay or even are familiar with the creative library.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: They both kind of are ways in which you can analyze and assess competitors creative.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I bring this up because you will find that brands have been running ads for six months, nine months, sometimes even like two years.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you have a winner, you have a winner and it just stays part of your campaign strategy until it no longer is successful, right?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, like there will be corner cases in every ad campaign where you do have a long-standing winner that seems like it's never shut off.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: But typically speaking, like media manager is gonna know within like seven to 14 days, if budgets are really small, whether an asset is going to be strong performing or not.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you're not getting the leading indication, leading indicators of like attention rate or click-through rate or whatever objectives you're calling leading to hit at you know, benchmark by seven to 14 days, like the asset's pretty dead, and you can move on and just pull in something else from your organic social.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that kind of answers your question.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, most campaigns have like five to 20 ads in them at any given time, depending on the type of campaign AS Advantage shopping usually have more, like 20-ish type ads running at any given time.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's really fascinating.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I like what you said about like if there's just one piece of content that worked really well, because I've seen this quite often where, you know, um, even on skincare anarchy, you know, with me playing around with it, I remember like there were, you know, pieces of content that just they were great, you know what I mean?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: And even if I would keep do running them, like they would keep performing and everybody would, you know, would respond to them.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's fascinating to see that even though it's might be a little bit older content, like it'll still generate a buzz, you know, if it's good and it's something your audience can resonate with.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's very fascinating.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think like the the other benefit of all this machine learning campaign structure is, you know, it's it's also taking into account the frequency or like the instances by which one person is exposed to that one ad, right?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: So like it's, you know, just because it's been in there forever doesn't mean everyone and their mom in your target market has seen it, right?
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's still some comfort in knowing these longstanding ones are still getting like fresh new eyes on a regular basis.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, I have one random question, and it's something that's been on, you know, for me, it's been on my mind for a long time is this idea, you know, last time we talked a lot about TikTok.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I know with TikTok, there's this like attention span thing, like where people are not, you know, looking for more than a few seconds at a time at anything, like any kind of content.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, when it comes to ads, do you think that there's like, you know, there's some merit in finding that sweet spot of like, you know, how many seconds you should be running it?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or I mean, does that even matter anymore?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I see both things.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's why I'm asking.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like sometimes I see things that are about 30 seconds, you know, to 45 seconds, other times they're very short.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, have you seen a shift from like short, short ads to longer ones, you know, in the recent months or past year or two?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have, and it's kind of gone all over the place.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: So, like we did see longer form videos.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think if if the brand, like we work with a celebrity dermatologist who is very much the face of her brand, she can put out longer form video ads because of who she is, right?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: But a typical brand that is not led by a you know celebrity is not going to have that same level of success with a longer asset.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I think like kind of knowing where your brand fits in terms of that voice and persona will allow you to understand the length.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right now, we're actually having a micro video moment where like shorter three to six seconds, and it's like, oh my God, what would be in the video for that amount of time?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: But those are the videos that are winning right now from an ad strategy.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really quite brilliant because if you think about it, the metrics that matter in a video ad lane are attention rate.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Attention rate is three second views divided by impressions.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: The higher that percentage is of the attention rate, the better.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then the more you're telling the algorithm, the ad platform you're on, TikTok or Meta, that you are killing it from an ad perspective, right?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're they're like, holy cow, this brand has the highest attention rate and has like the most watches till the end of the video.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Little do they know that the video is three seconds long.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you not have good numbers then, right?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So then you're already kind of like positioning your brand in a place of like success in the ad platform's eyes.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I would like, I would encourage more people to try these micro videos because you're kind of gaming the system for the time being.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: That is brilliant, especially for like I feel like beauty brands and skincare brands, because like if you have like a texture video or something, or like you know what I mean?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like one of those like really nice videos where sometimes brands show like a beautiful like oil or whatever it might be that they're showcasing like a product, it doesn't have to be very long.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen those, I know what you're talking about, and they're very captivating, even though they're like two or three seconds long, they're really captivating.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, and they they help your business because they are gaming the metrics.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of a win-win, even if you don't get the sale from it, you're training the system to believe that you know what you're doing, and therefore they're going to like give you more advantages on the platform.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now, is there like a balance, like a sweet spot balance of like, you know, these like micro, like the micro ads that you just described, and then the ones that we might be a little longer or more descriptive?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, have you seen that, you know, uh in your experience where brands have like especially for beauty and skincare based brands?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, is there a a balance that we should know about or consider?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or is that something that's kind of like a case-by-case basis?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it's so gray that it's hard to give you like one like very clear example.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: What I would say is you need that variety, like just like when you talk to your social media person and like there's very much a strategy behind the scenes, but it has to feel and look very organic to the consumer.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: The same goes in like ad strategy and ad planning from a creative perspective.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like you should have one minute long videos, you should have 30 seconds, 15 seconds, three seconds, right?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like play with all of it, put them all into the system of the ad platform and let the algorithm start to find its favorites, and then that can dictate strategy.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I wouldn't say out of the gate, like only make 15 seconds, don't make shorter, don't make longer, because then you're kind of like losing your insights on any of the other links or opportunities, right?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think you intentionally want to throw spaghetti at the wall, but like learn really quickly from it.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And uh one one more question I do have is about the social media, like kind of you know, there are social so many social media managers out there as well that want to learn more about ads and and they want to do better.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I I'm just curious, you know, your opinion on this about what they should know, you know, about like uh things that are ad-based, the content that is ads for their their clients, you know, what should they know when they're approaching, you know, managing their social medias and and all of that?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think it's a really good path for social media people who've always been on the organic side to now get into paid because of this kind of simplification from audience building, et cetera, through machine learning.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what I would probably advise them to do is like start to get familiar and take training on like TikTok ads certifications and meta-ad certifications so that they're learning how to do it from a media buying perspective, not just like a use the native app platform and boost from there because you're just um limited in terms of the types of structures you can set up campaigns with when you just you know click a button on the app on your phone and you know spend money on it.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say, you know, get the certifications and then set everything up through the proper ads manager when you are boosting or um sparking as it's called on TikTok.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I think having that ability to go across organic and paid is really, really desired right now because it's going to influence and inform so many of the decisions being made from growth overall.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's really, really informative.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm yeah, I'm just so fascinated by this whole world.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I I love that you know so much about it, Nikki.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's always so awesome learning from you about this.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for sharing your insights.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, for everyone listening, if you are a brand listening in, definitely check out Pennock.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, it's just it's great to connect with professionals, you know, when it comes to these things.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you guys aren't wasting money on trying to figure it out yourselves.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's a lot of brand founders that tune in, and I would love for you guys to kind of you know get in touch with the right people.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you have any questions or inquiries, please reach out to us.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: We can connect you with Nikki and her team.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: But Nikki, thank you so much.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's been so lovely chatting with you again and learning from you.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's really uh always a pleasure.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's a pleasure to be here too.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me, Ecta.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
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