Latest / 22 Panels - A Comic Book Podcast / 22 Panels Episode #221 - Tom King & Animal Pound

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22 Panels Episode #221 - Tom King & Animal Pound · 22 Panels - A Comic Book Podcast

• 0:01
  Tad Eggleston: Good evening, everybody. Welcome back to 22 Panels, where my guests today for, I think, the sixth time. Is it possible? Is it possible that you're here for the sixth time? And as I say this, it could turn out that you're here for the seventh, and then I'll feel even worse.
• 0:19
  Tad Eggleston: Let's see, I'm doing the Google search now, is Doug Wagner, whose new book, Narco, is a week away from Final Order Cutoff. I've read the first volume, or the first issue, and, like…
• 0:34
  Tad Eggleston: You continue to up your batshit crazy game.
• 0:39
  Tad Eggleston: And I love it. And this is, this is our seventh Doug Wagner appearance.
• 0:45
  Tad Eggleston: on 22 panels.
• 0:47
  Tad Eggleston: This is the 295th
• 0:52
  Tad Eggleston: interview episode, and you… you were 7, 50, 85, 161, 229, 260, and now 295. So…
• 1:03
  Doug Wagner: I'm going for 22, and then after 22, we're done.
• 1:05
  Tad Eggleston: What if I just changed the name of the show at that point?
• 1:09
  Doug Wagner: Okay, well then if… then I'll move.
• 1:13
  Doug Wagner: Only doing 22 22 panels.
• 1:15
  Tad Eggleston: Okay, and then we'll have to change the name to 99 Ways to Tell a Story as a tribute to Matt Madden, until you get to 99.
• 1:26
  Tad Eggleston: And then I don't know what we'll do. Infinity War?
• 1:34
  Tad Eggleston: So Doug, tell us about Narco. I always love hearing your pitches. You're good at distilling your books, and…
• 1:40
  Doug Wagner: Oh yeah, I mean, I.
• 1:41
  Tad Eggleston: Then I'll gush over it.
• 1:42
  Doug Wagner: But I mean, basically, Narco follows Marcus, who's a narcoleptic, who passes out when he gets too excited, and of course, what we decided to do is throw him in the middle of a murder investigation, because what better way to torture
• 1:54
  Doug Wagner: Such a character than that.
• 1:58
  Tad Eggleston: Well, and the murder investigation of his crush.
• 2:03
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah.
• 2:04
  Tad Eggleston: And, like, you had my head exploding right at the beginning, is he's, like, writing about
• 2:11
  Tad Eggleston: You know, there are probably way more serial killers than we… than we know, and it would actually be a great thing for a serial killer to copy other serial killers.
• 2:24
  Tad Eggleston: So that they could get arrested, and then… and then there's just that brief… you…
• 2:30
  Tad Eggleston: Brief, like, text thing that you're, like, ugh!
• 2:34
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I didn't get the reference. No.
• 2:37
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Kidding, just kidding.
• 2:39
  Tad Eggleston: So, so yeah, it was, ugh.
• 2:45
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I liked this book so much, Doug.
• 2:47
  Doug Wagner: Oh, thanks, man, yeah, we had a good time putting it together, you know, I mean, it's obvious, you know, still working with Daniel, and you got Dave Stewart doing colors, which is always amazing.
• 2:55
  Tad Eggleston: Right?
• 2:55
  Doug Wagner: You know, so, like, it just all seemed to fit for us trying to do, like, I mean, for Daniel and I, we were trying, like, kind of, like, writing a love letter to Hitchcock, you know.
• 3:04
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 3:04
  Doug Wagner: Alfred Hitchcock movies, and Rear Window is still to this day, one of my favorite movies.
• 3:08
  Tad Eggleston: Gotcha.
• 3:09
  Doug Wagner: And I was like, okay, well, how can we fit that into our little universe? You know, how can we.
• 3:13
  Tad Eggleston: And see, this explains the variant covers, too.
• 3:17
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah.
• 3:18
  Tad Eggleston: making me buy two copies of everything this time around. I try really hard not to do that, Doug.
• 3:23
  Doug Wagner: Sorry. I was… I won't lie, like, when we came up with the idea of, like, doing, you know, Alfred Hitchcock movie posters as comic book covers, I didn't know how they would necessarily turn out and how they would look. But now that I've seen all 5 of them colored and lettered and everything else, I'm… I'm personally blown away.
• 3:41
  Doug Wagner: I was like, nobody's doing anything like this. Like, there are no covers on the stand that look like these.
• 3:48
  Tad Eggleston: You know, there are a handful, kind of, like, duh…
• 3:53
  Tad Eggleston: I don't want to take away from Hilliard, because, like… They're amazing, but, like, like…
• 3:59
  Tad Eggleston: I know that Tony Fleeks and Trish Forstner have had a lot of movie poster
• 4:04
  Tad Eggleston: Variants on feral and stray dogs before that.
• 4:10
  Tad Eggleston: So they had… actually, I think in recent years, the most impressive set of them, and they did, like, a crap ton for, I think, a four-issue series.
• 4:22
  Tad Eggleston: maybe a five-issue series, I forget. Four kids walk in the bank.
• 4:26
  Tad Eggleston: into a bank, the Matthew Rosenberg-Tyler Boss series.
• 4:30
  Doug Wagner: I think Tyler Boss probably did a variation of, like, every crime movie you've ever heard of. Well, I think what's unusual about these, though, is that, like, these are movie posters from the 60s and 70s.
• 4:44
  Doug Wagner: Versus, you know… and they're not… back then, they weren't necessarily design-heavy.
• 4:49
  Tad Eggleston: No.
• 4:50
  Doug Wagner: There's stuff like, oh, greatest movie ever made, you know.
• 4:52
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 4:53
  Doug Wagner: Stuff like.
• 4:53
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 4:54
  Doug Wagner: Like, we had to kind of, like, do our spin on those, and I'm blown away about how they turned out.
• 5:00
  Tad Eggleston: No, they… they are! I mean, the second I… I…
• 5:04
  Tad Eggleston: how to put this? I even, like, probably even more than avoiding variant covers.
• 5:13
  Tad Eggleston: And I guess it's not I avoid variant covers, I generally choose one cover.
• 5:18
  Tad Eggleston: Right? Sometimes I'll choose the variant. But even more than avoiding buying a second cover, I actually really try to avoid buying a second cover just because it's a movie.
• 5:29
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 5:29
  Tad Eggleston: variant.
• 5:31
  Tad Eggleston: Because it's like…
• 5:32
  Tad Eggleston: I love the movie poster, and by the way, you know, I can see the… I can pull the cover up on my computer screen anytime I want to look at it, you know? It's not like I don't get to see it.
• 5:44
  Tad Eggleston: I saw these, and I put them both on my list, and it's not just because Edgar gives me a better discount now, though that might have made it a little bit easier.
• 5:51
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, makes that decision a little.
• 5:54
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: It helps.
• 5:55
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Doug, I have to ask you, there was a lot of thoughts running through my head, and I don't want to send any spoilers or ruin anything, so say what you feel comfortable saying. So, the first one was, okay, I love the title, Narco, because when I first saw the title, I thought, first, drugs. I mean, maybe that's the me in me, but I'm like, oh, it's about drugs.
• 6:14
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Then I saw this, the watch, and I saw the… I'm like, is he diabetic? And it was for a split second, you had me go, I'm fucking dumb. I'm like, narco, sleep… I'm like…
• 6:24
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: mother, you know, I'm like, he… I'm like, it… you fucking my head. You know, I'm like, it threw me out. I thought that was really good right off the bat. I'm like, okay, not what I expected. But then when I saw that, you know, there's so-and-so serial killers, I'm like, -oh, are we gonna merge… the first question, are we gonna merge the worlds? Is it all gonna be part of the same universe that you've created?
• 6:43
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, Darko is part of the plastic verse.
• 6:47
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Oh…
• 6:49
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: That's gonna be… that already is… you kicked it up another notch. Didn't think it could happen, but you kicked it up a notch, so that's… that's gonna be great.
• 6:55
  Tad Eggleston: I guess I kind of expected that, just because the fashion school serial killer was also in the plastic verse, because she was in vinyl just a little bit, right?
• 7:08
  Doug Wagner: Oh, quite a bit, yeah, she was.
• 7:09
  Tad Eggleston: Well, yeah, but she wasn't the primary in vinyl, she was… Okay, yeah, okay.
• 7:16
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: So, so the second question is, why narcolepsy? Of all the disorders that are out there, if everything that can possibly go wrong with somebody, how does your twisted mind pick narcolepsy? How does that… how did you come up with that?
• 7:29
  Doug Wagner: Basically, I mean, Kevin Gardner, the president of 12-gauge, actually came to Daniel and I with this basic idea of, like, hey, what about a character who passes out when he gets too excited? And so then it was kind of up to us to kind of, like, fill in the gaps and figure out how that works. And for me, like, I think that whole, like.
• 7:44
  Doug Wagner: you know, I've always kind of been fascinated by narcolepsy.
• 7:47
  Doug Wagner: And so it just kind of came to my head of, like, man, what's scarier than, like, passing out, knowing you're asleep, and not knowing what you're gonna wake up to?
• 7:57
  Doug Wagner: You know, so, like, it just kind of led me down that narcolepsy path, and obviously did a ton of research into it to find out if that was even possible, and those kind of things. And narcolepsy, to me, like, even in this kind of, like, there's a lot involved, right, with people that have panic attacks and anxiety and that kind of stuff.
• 8:12
  Doug Wagner: luckily, you know, I have panic attacks all the time. Luckily, I've never passed out from one, but, like, I was like, how can I take that to the next level of, like…
• 8:18
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Dude!
• 8:19
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 8:20
  Doug Wagner: with anxiety, like, when you get that, like, you know, that flight or fight response, right? And, like, you're scared you're gonna pass out and be embarrassed in front of everybody. Well, what if that happened? You know, like, that was the next level. So, I kind of wanted to add that anxiety and that psychological thrill to Darko.
• 8:37
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Well, I mean, well done, yeah. I mean, obviously, as a psychologist, I'm like, huh, yeah, okay, I could see that happen. So, that was pretty cool to see. I have a twisted question in response for my third question was, so, is it gonna impact him when he's having sex?
• 8:53
  Doug Wagner: Well, luckily, we.
• 8:55
  Tad Eggleston: I was about to say, does he get to anymore? I mean, he seemed like he had a pretty good opportunity, and then…
• 9:03
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: He blew it!
• 9:05
  Doug Wagner: I think that's the fear, right? Like, I mean, whether he knows that yet or not, that would still be a fear, right? Like, would you want to go down that path knowing that before you even got to taking your shirt off, you would pass out?
• 9:17
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, I think you have to be very honest with your partner.
• 9:23
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yep.
• 9:23
  Doug Wagner: That's hard to do on a.
• 9:24
  Tad Eggleston: I mean…
• 9:25
  Doug Wagner: That's amazing.
• 9:26
  Tad Eggleston: in particular…
• 9:26
  Doug Wagner: Hey, Refurta.
• 9:27
  Tad Eggleston: Particularly given the fact that, like, we saw him prepping for first aid, doing all the running and whatnot, keeping his heart rate down, even with lots of exertion. So, I think, like.
• 9:42
  Tad Eggleston: Soon after the first kiss, you should warn your partner.
• 9:47
  Tad Eggleston: then certain things could make me pass out. So, if I suddenly fall asleep on top of you, I promise it's not any… anything to do with your performance.
• 9:59
  Doug Wagner: You just gotta keep that watch on, dude, like… gotta know when that heart rate gets to a certain point.
• 10:06
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Are you gonna intertwine any… Any treatment or therapy?
• 10:11
  Tad Eggleston: Close his eyes and think of England, if it hits a certain point.
• 10:18
  Tad Eggleston: I'm sorry, I just… You were saying, Dr. Ramos.
• 10:24
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Is there gonna be any therapeutic aspect? Like, he's gonna find some type of treatment to help him with that, or anything you can spoil away that's treatment-related?
• 10:33
  Doug Wagner: I mean, not necessarily, you know, from the psychological standpoint, you know, of, like, him seeking out help. It's gonna be more like, as you've already seen in the first book, it's him trying to learn to live with his condition. And I didn't want to, like, come up with a magical solution as much as, like, him trying to, like, hey, listen.
• 10:49
  Doug Wagner: I know I have this, how can I deal with it, and still live a normal life? And of course, you know.
• 10:54
  Doug Wagner: Then we're gonna throw them in the middle of chaos and see if that… that stands up.
• 10:59
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Last quick question. Any guest appearances from the other universe?
• 11:04
  Doug Wagner: Not a narco. Nope.
• 11:06
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: No! What!
• 11:07
  Doug Wagner: There'll be Easter eggs, but yeah, no guest appearances in this one, yeah. You know how we are, we don't want to force anything. You know, we like to throw Easter eggs in there, but we don't necessarily want to have it…
• 11:16
  Doug Wagner: We've kind of prided ourselves on making sure each of the graphic novels are complete stand-alone stories. You don't have to read one to understand the other ones. And we didn't want to ruin Narco by, like.
• 11:25
  Tad Eggleston: And you can read them in whatever order.
• 11:27
  Doug Wagner: Exactly. And we didn't want to… we didn't want to throw Narco in that, like, oh, well, you won't get this unless you've read the other books.
• 11:34
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I don't think you can ruin it, to be quite honest. It's really good. Yeah, it was a good… it was a great read, actually. I don't think you can ruin it with a guest appearance, but I… I… I'm listening, I'm with you.
• 11:46
  Tad Eggleston: And remember, Edgar, final order cutoff is a week from Monday, so, like.
• 11:52
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: 40, 50 copies for the store, or something like that? I don't know. You know what? I was gonna order a lot, but, I mean, if, you know, no one's gonna show off from somewhere else, I'm like, I don't know, man, it's… no. It's always the challenge. Yeah, yeah, it's on my order list, for sure, yeah, it's great. It was a great story.
• 12:09
  Doug Wagner: Nope.
• 12:10
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: It was solid, so entertaining. The cliffhanger at the end is like… I'm gonna say it, and please don't take offense to it, I was like, you motherfucker!
• 12:19
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
• 12:20
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I, I saw you, I was like, motherfucking wood! See, Doug?
• 12:24
  Tad Eggleston: I managed to forget that I'd read the book.
• 12:27
  Doug Wagner: So I read it a second time.
• 12:29
  Tad Eggleston: And when I got to that is when, you know, as I got to that, I'm like, maybe I did read this a while ago. Because Image actually… I'm on Image's press list now, so I think they gave me a copy of it.
• 12:41
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: So, yeah.
• 12:41
  Tad Eggleston: almost a month ago, something like that.
• 12:45
  Tad Eggleston: So, like, as I'm going through it, I'm like, okay, this feels more familiar than I thought. Initially, I'm like, was there just a preview somewhere that I read? Because I know that there have been a couple of books that there have been, like, 4 pages in the back of it, and, you know, I think a couple of the websites have had, like, 4 or 6-page previews.
• 13:03
  Tad Eggleston: And then I got to the end, and I'm like.
• 13:05
  Tad Eggleston: Fuck you, Doug. Fuck you. FUCK YOU!
• 13:10
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yes, I read it.
• 13:11
  Tad Eggleston: this before, and I just blocked it out of my head.
• 13:14
  Doug Wagner: You can't give me a better compliment than you two just gave me.
• 13:19
  Tad Eggleston: DARE YOU!
• 13:21
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Now I have to wait for that, yes.
• 13:24
  Doug Wagner: And Edgar, I do this with all the stores, dude, so, like, seriously, and very few of them have ever taken me up on it, but, like, you order as many copies as you want, whatever you don't sell, I'll buy at cost from… back from you.
• 13:35
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Oh my god.
• 13:36
  Doug Wagner: My word, like…
• 13:38
  Doug Wagner: If it helps you feel more comfortable ordering more copies, and you know, hey, I want to push this book without having any, like, major risk involved, I got your back.
• 13:47
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I appreciate that, but I.
• 13:49
  Tad Eggleston: Good to know.
• 13:50
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I will push that sell either way.
• 13:51
  Tad Eggleston: Well, and here's what I'll say, is what you should do, is buy enough copies that… the…
• 13:59
  Tad Eggleston: Buying them back would be a plane ticket, and then just sell him that rather than buying them back, he should fly out and…
• 14:07
  Doug Wagner: Okay, don't pick them up.
• 14:09
  Tad Eggleston: And signed them all at the show.
• 14:12
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: No, I can… I'm a pretty good hustler. I'll have them at the front. You have to read. What I do…
• 14:18
  Tad Eggleston: Well, I mean, we already have fashion…
• 14:20
  Tad Eggleston: killer, serial killer up there. Unless we sold it all.
• 14:24
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: It's actually gone.
• 14:25
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 14:25
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Like, I truly like the book, and I'm one of those that I have to read it and see, like, can I push this? If I like it enough, and I still have 10, 15 copies, I give it to people to read, and I go, hey, you know what? Take it. Just read it. If you don't like it.
• 14:38
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah.
• 14:38
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: bring it back to me. I go, but you tell me what you think, and I have yet.
• 14:42
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Everybody bring a book back to me, no matter what.
• 14:45
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, yeah. So no matter what, it's gonna go into people's hands. So, even if, you know, if I cover the cost, but it's like the chicken that they give away in Costco, or they sell at the low price. People will take it, they'll like it, and then they're gonna come back and buy other things.
• 14:58
  Tad Eggleston: See, I thought you were gonna go somewhere else, given your hood-to-hooded, storyline.
• 15:06
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I'm keeping the drugs out of it for now.
• 15:08
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I ruined it with the narco part, so… yeah, no.
• 15:11
  Tad Eggleston: Hopefully.
• 15:13
  Tad Eggleston: What's your taste, is what you say to every customer.
• 15:16
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: But when you come to Illinois, I want a signed copy from you. I will have you sign it.
• 15:19
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, of course, dude, yeah.
• 15:21
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, next time you're in town.
• 15:24
  Tad Eggleston: at least if you're not on somebody else's dime, because I discovered that people who are brought in by conventions aren't allowed to do other stuff while they're here.
• 15:33
  Tad Eggleston: Oh yeah, this is…
• 15:35
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah, I mean, I can't remember what… It's sad, man. Yeah, there was one show… like, it was like, yeah, you couldn't be within… you couldn't do a signing within, like, 2 weeks on either side of the show, within, like, a 50-mile radius.
• 15:47
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Jesus.
• 15:48
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, it's just like… I mean, I hear where they're coming from, because for a long time, there was, like…
• 15:54
  Doug Wagner: you know, people… creators would come in and do a store signing or two before the show, and they think that's taking away from people buying tickets for their show. I don't necessarily know if that's true or not, I'd have to see some data behind that, but…
• 16:07
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I actually imagine that, like…
• 16:12
  Tad Eggleston: If you set up a situation where they could buy tickets to the show while they were getting a signature, you would find that it drove sales.
• 16:21
  Tad Eggleston: Particularly just if they, you know…
• 16:26
  Tad Eggleston: say, hey, come hang out with me, and these other people are there. Or, I'm doing a panel on this, you know, come to the show. There's so many different ways that, like.
• 16:36
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, as they become more pop culture events, I guess… They just lose track of…
• 16:42
  Tad Eggleston: Certain things, but, like, comics are… are still very much at a…
• 16:49
  Tad Eggleston: rising tide raises all… I mean.
• 16:52
  Tad Eggleston: By the way, like, anybody who says a rising tide doesn't raise all ships doesn't understand how ships work.
• 17:01
  Doug Wagner: Okay.
• 17:02
  Tad Eggleston: If a rising tide didn't raise all ships, then ships would have problems in harbors.
• 17:09
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: And you do have young readers. There's a lot of young readers that are still coming into shops, buying stuff. I mean, it's… having a shop is having given me the opportunity to see that, and you know what? They also buy comics that aren't about superheroes.
• 17:23
  Tad Eggleston: They do.
• 17:24
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: They actually want independent reads. They're looking… and that… I think that's a beautiful thing. It's like… I mean, honestly, in my experience.
• 17:32
  Tad Eggleston: younger readers are even less… I mean, superheroes have become…
• 17:37
  Tad Eggleston: the, like, 35 to 65 is the group of people who like superheroes the most. Young readers, if they like superheroes, they like them in movies more than comics, which doesn't mean that they won't read a good superhero comic, but they tend to be really discerning.
• 17:55
  Doug Wagner: Nope.
• 17:56
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, absolutely. And women, there's a lot of women that read independent comics, too, as well. Right.
• 18:01
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I think it's good,
• 18:01
  Tad Eggleston: graphic novels out the wazoo. I mean…
• 18:05
  Tad Eggleston: I love talking about… my wife is an art teacher, and she does the… she'll ask the question at the beginning of class, you know?
• 18:13
  Tad Eggleston: what's your favorite blank? And she told me a story a few years ago, she's like, so…
• 18:19
  Tad Eggleston: Yesterday, I asked the class what their favorite comic was, and, like, everybody insisted that they didn't read comics, and a couple of them said, is comic book movie okay? You know, blah blah blah. Today, I asked them what their favorite book was, and I got…
• 18:36
  Tad Eggleston: a dozen people saying smile, and half a dozen people said drama, and I got a lot of Dogman, and I got a lot… and I'm like, these are all comics, and they're like, oh, we just thought they were books.
• 18:54
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Absolutely.
• 18:54
  Doug Wagner: I mean, there's always been that disconnect with, like, what's a graphic novel versus a trade versus a.
• 18:59
  Tad Eggleston: Right. Right.
• 19:01
  Doug Wagner: comics in America still can't seem to get rid of the stigma of the.
• 19:05
  Tad Eggleston: Love.
• 19:06
  Doug Wagner: No.
• 19:07
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 19:08
  Tad Eggleston: Well, it can't get rid of the stigma of being superheroes, even, to a certain extent, which just drives me up the wall.
• 19:14
  Doug Wagner: I mean, I mean, in fairness, like, what, still, you know, what, 60, 70, maybe even 80% of comics that come out?
• 19:22
  Tad Eggleston: In the comic shop.
• 19:24
  Doug Wagner: Right.
• 19:25
  Tad Eggleston: If you look at the entire book market, it's way smaller than that. Yeah.
• 19:30
  Doug Wagner: No, I'd get you. They don't consider those comic books, just like you said, though, so that's where.
• 19:34
  Tad Eggleston: Right?
• 19:35
  Doug Wagner: I mean, people, you know, we've had talks about manga, right? And people are like, oh, I like manga comic books, I'm sorry.
• 19:40
  Tad Eggleston: Right, it is!
• 19:42
  Doug Wagner: It's the same thing.
• 19:43
  Tad Eggleston: The first people to tell you that would be Bungakas!
• 19:45
  Doug Wagner: Yup, it's comic books.
• 19:48
  Tad Eggleston: Manga is the Japanese word for comic!
• 19:54
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yep.
• 19:55
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, duh.
• 19:56
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Who would you say is the perfect audience for Narco?
• 20:00
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 20:01
  Doug Wagner: That's always a tough one, because I'm always wrong.
• 20:05
  Doug Wagner: I thought plastic was gonna… I thought plastic would be, like, skew really heavy male, like, 25 to, you know, 55 kind of thing. It's the exact opposite, it's 80% female.
• 20:16
  Doug Wagner: In the 25 to 45 bracket.
• 20:19
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, the true crime junkies.
• 20:21
  Doug Wagner: Yeah. I think for Narco, like, I mean, obviously, you know, we do have some blood and, you know, some words we don't go for necessarily for the younger crowd, but I think anybody, like.
• 20:32
  Doug Wagner: I would think anybody, you know, 13 plus, like PG-13 up. Yeah.
• 20:37
  Tad Eggleston: But dude, it's hard to say. Like, I mean, like…
• 20:40
  Doug Wagner: Women are reading more indie books than any… ever. That's what I sell to almost…
• 20:45
  Doug Wagner: Like, 80-90% of the con sales I have are to females.
• 20:49
  Tad Eggleston: I believe it. I believe it. I mean, particularly your… You write in that…
• 20:58
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, the number of women I know, my wife included, who are just huge into true crime.
• 21:06
  Tad Eggleston: Where the only place that they like similar stuff
• 21:10
  Tad Eggleston: that's fictional, I mean, my wife's hilarious, like, she can handle the most gruesome stuff if it's real.
• 21:19
  Tad Eggleston: But if it's fictional, she has no time for it, unless it's batshit crazy funny as hell.
• 21:28
  Doug Wagner: Yeah. I mean, that's… I mean, we're getting to that point, like, I mean, this is basically a, you know, an Alfred Hitchcock-style psychological thriller, so I think it can be close to anybody that's into that stuff.
• 21:39
  Tad Eggleston: Brighton.
• 21:40
  Doug Wagner: figure out, like, you know, Hollywood has a tendency to try to make everything, like, fit in a perfect little ball. You know, like, oh, this is for males between 27 and 35.5. You're like, that doesn't.
• 21:51
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, are they really looking at windows that big? I thought they were looking at… we're trying to get males making more than $85,000 a year between the ages of 28 and a half and 31 and a quarter.
• 22:06
  Doug Wagner: Yeah. And I would… I would argue that none of that stuff is… is real. Like, that data is so skewed, it's almost impossible. You know what, Sal?
• 22:15
  Tad Eggleston: That's how Hollywood executives sound good and keep getting paid a lot of money, even though they don't do anything in terms of making the movies.
• 22:23
  Doug Wagner: Here's one. Everything, everywhere, all at once. What would you.
• 22:27
  Tad Eggleston: Damn.
• 22:27
  Doug Wagner: Is the audience for that.
• 22:29
  Tad Eggleston: Everybody.
• 22:31
  Doug Wagner: You know what's… good story. Period. People want.
• 22:35
  Tad Eggleston: Actually.
• 22:35
  Doug Wagner: the story.
• 22:36
  Tad Eggleston: You know what's ironic? Is I bet you that lots of people thought it was gonna be for 50 and older.
• 22:42
  Tad Eggleston: Men.
• 22:44
  Tad Eggleston: and of all the people I know, those are the group most likely not to like it, because it's like, there's too much happening, why can't they just stick to one story?
• 22:53
  Doug Wagner: Well, the fact that I had a.
• 22:54
  Tad Eggleston: Where's the hero?
• 22:55
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 22:56
  Tad Eggleston: It's like, the hero is this old lady. She can't be a hero.
• 23:01
  Doug Wagner: I mean, I know there's some stuff, like, say, take Dogman. Dogman's specific, you know, I think he can go, hey, here's a…
• 23:06
  Doug Wagner: That's appropriate for, but at the same.
• 23:08
  Tad Eggleston: I don't know, but I think it's brilliant, so… and I'm 45.
• 23:12
  Doug Wagner: They said the same thing about Harry Potter.
• 23:14
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 23:15
  Doug Wagner: which is a worldwide, you know, whether you like J.K. Rowling or not, it's a worldwide, regardless of age.
• 23:22
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 23:23
  Doug Wagner: Sex, everybody loves that story.
• 23:25
  Tad Eggleston: Everywhere.
• 23:28
  Tad Eggleston: Well, at least everybody buys that story.
• 23:30
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: You know, I have to give you some credit here, Doug, because the things you… my wife is a very non… she doesn't like horror, won't watch any horror movie, never got into it, and she enjoys your reads. You make them… I think you really…
• 23:46
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: make them for a much wider audience, a very wide audience, because, I mean, she finds it very easy to read, like, it's not super scary, it's not super gory, and the goriness that is, it's… the integration with the art and the story, it's palatable for people, like, at all levels, and I think that's… I mean, would I give it to a 5-year-old? No, probably not.
• 24:06
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: You know, I…
• 24:07
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, you know Tommy's reading it.
• 24:09
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Well, maybe I would, okay, maybe I would, but you know, I'm like, I'm very one that's like, you know what, if you can see naked, you know, cherubs, you know, in an art store, art museum, why can't you read what you want to read? So I am very open when it comes to reading. If you walk your child along.
• 24:24
  Tad Eggleston: Got it.
• 24:24
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, so I'm very open to that. But yeah, I think it's a read that everybody can read. I mean, I can tell you, funny thing is, most of the copies I had of plastic, the trade edition, went to women.
• 24:36
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, yeah?
• 24:37
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Most of them went there, you know, like…
• 24:40
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: You know, it's like, huh, okay, so that's kind of been… I've been watching.
• 24:43
  Tad Eggleston: And I think the only thing that surprises me about that is that it's got a sex doll on the cover, and still most of them go to women.
• 24:50
  Tad Eggleston: Which means they have to be reading about it, or flipping through the pages, because I can't see the cover automatically going, oh yes, I need to buy my comic with a blow-up doll's head.
• 25:08
  Tad Eggleston: It's like the definition of the book is more than its cover.
• 25:14
  Tad Eggleston: So, I love that you've continued to work with
• 25:19
  Tad Eggleston: Daniel, did you start with Daniel with plastic, or did that… or did you…
• 25:24
  Tad Eggleston: Was he on some of the… the ride before that? I forget.
• 25:28
  Doug Wagner: Well, we started, what did we start on?
• 25:31
  Doug Wagner: we kind of got together way back when, and we, you know, this is back probably 2008?
• 25:39
  Doug Wagner: We met basically during, like, the Obama administration years.
• 25:45
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 25:46
  Doug Wagner: And, we did.
• 25:47
  Tad Eggleston: Man, those were nice years.
• 25:49
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah. We started… we did little things here and there, and then, like, you know, we said, hey, what about doing a creator-own thing?
• 25:57
  Doug Wagner: And I pitched him a couple of things, and he picked plastic, and I was like, are you sure? And he's like, yeah, I love this, and then that's how we found out we have the same sensibilities.
• 26:05
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 26:06
  Doug Wagner: We've been working together nonstop ever since.
• 26:09
  Tad Eggleston: Well, and so much so that you started your newsletter that I read religiously.
• 26:13
  Doug Wagner: Oh, thanks!
• 26:15
  Doug Wagner: That happens.
• 26:16
  Tad Eggleston: You see how I segued there?
• 26:18
  Doug Wagner: We started a little newsletter, and you know, we're only putting it out twice a month, and he does one, and I do one, so we just do, you know, we're just trying to learn to, like, be a little bit more vulnerable to the public, because, you know, we're both pretty private guys, and we're trying to learn, like, you know, we're just…
• 26:32
  Tad Eggleston: And all evidence to the contrary when you're on this show.
• 26:35
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah. It's like…
• 26:38
  Doug Wagner: But but yeah, we're enjoying it, like, his comes out tomorrow, so he does the first…
• 26:44
  Tad Eggleston: What's the name of the newsletter again? I mean, I'm certain I can pull it out, but it's more fun when you say it.
• 26:49
  Doug Wagner: There's something wrong with us.
• 26:50
  Tad Eggleston: some… It…
• 26:53
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Can we explore that thought for a second?
• 26:56
  Tad Eggleston: Of course!
• 26:58
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Hmm.
• 27:01
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, we just, you know, and you get little sneak peeks of what we're up to, and, you know, we want to talk more about stuff than we can half the time, so we have to, you know, it's like, well, man, I want to give more sneak peeks, but, you know, publishers tend to get in the way sometimes.
• 27:15
  Tad Eggleston: Okay, so I do have to say that there is the downside with that title, is that you can't just Google there's something wrong with us, because.
• 27:25
  Doug Wagner: Okay.
• 27:25
  Tad Eggleston: manga, you have to actually put Doug Wagner There's something wrong with us.
• 27:32
  Doug Wagner: And if you just go to… sign up's easy on my website, you know.
• 27:35
  Tad Eggleston: Right, or go straight to Shock… Shocknock. Oh, I did… do you have a…
• 27:39
  Tad Eggleston: You have a threadless store? I did not know you had a threadless store.
• 27:45
  Tad Eggleston: Edgar, did you know that you could get a plush t-shirt?
• 27:50
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Really?
• 27:52
  Tad Eggleston: Yup.
• 27:52
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I'd be rocking that all day.
• 27:54
  Doug Wagner: We started doing, seasonal things, like right now we've got stuff up there for Valentine's Day with Edwin in Virginia.
• 28:03
  Tad Eggleston: Edgar.
• 28:06
  Tad Eggleston: Cannibalistic Furies.
• 28:08
  Tad Eggleston: Furries, rather.
• 28:11
  Tad Eggleston: Look at that. Edgar, are you looking at your screen? I'm sharing my screen.
• 28:17
  Tad Eggleston: The, these, these are available… Love hypnotize…
• 28:22
  Doug Wagner: Love the time.
• 28:23
  Tad Eggleston: Lovenatized.
• 28:25
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: You have… do you have retailer opportunities? I'll order.
• 28:31
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, how does Threadless work with that? Is there a way to…
• 28:35
  Doug Wagner: I mean, yeah, I mean, I could look into it if you're interested. I've really, you know, pretty much it's just like, you know, a print-on-demand kind of…
• 28:42
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 28:44
  Doug Wagner: store. But, you know, if somebody's looking to get some extra copies or whatever, I could see what I could do. You know, I could give them a call. I talk to the guy regularly.
• 28:52
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 28:52
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I would definitely be interested, selling… I would sell that merch, I would push that…
• 28:55
  Tad Eggleston: Edgar is sitting there going, I need to buy a t-shirt rack.
• 29:01
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I would definitely, yeah, I would love to. I would be honored to do that. I think it's… I love… I stand by the work, so, I mean, that's the 100%, is I stand by it, so…
• 29:11
  Tad Eggleston: Also, he's imagining, you know, bundling, you know, 3 graphic novels, get a free t-shirt.
• 29:17
  Doug Wagner: Yep.
• 29:21
  Tad Eggleston: You muted yourself, Edgar, we didn't catch that. I saw your…
• 29:24
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, I said that, yeah. That's a good idea, yeah.
• 29:28
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I would do 4 graphic novels, but yes, yeah.
• 29:30
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I was about to say, I think actually 4 or 5 would be more appropriate to still make some sort of profit, but yeah.
• 29:37
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah.
• 29:38
  Tad Eggleston: Oh… I'm still… I'm still, like, reeling from my reread of Narco.
• 29:48
  Tad Eggleston: So tell me about… we're gonna let me reel, because I… you did mention that you've got another book coming out right now that flew completely under my radar, because apparently I didn't see it with your name on it, because that's the only thing that would have put it on my radar. Cyberpunk 2077 Chrome?
• 30:06
  Doug Wagner: Yep. Which…
• 30:09
  Tad Eggleston: I didn't even know this until I was looking into it for the show. Cyberpunk 2077 is apparently a video game. Do you play the video game? Or, like, how did you get involved with this? I'm assuming it's awesome, because you're writing it, but, like…
• 30:26
  Doug Wagner: Edgar shaved!
• 30:28
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, Lee's here!
• 30:30
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Sorry, my name is Lee. I lightened up a little bit, too.
• 30:34
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: So he does the Cyberpunk, so I was like, you know what, that's your… that's your area right there. Yes.
• 30:39
  Doug Wagner: Lee, nice to meet you, yeah.
• 30:40
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: as well, Doug.
• 30:42
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's a Dark Horse four-issue miniseries. The Cyberpunk 2077 folks contacted me and wanted me to do a… a horror version of Cyberpunk.
• 30:52
  Doug Wagner: So, you know, they were like, we want to do something called Chrome, and I'm like, okay, that sounds like it's probably right in my wheelhouse. So, you know, like, yeah, we did a Cyberpunk…
• 31:03
  Tad Eggleston: So, again, do you play the game? I don't know the game. I don't know the franchise. Do you play it already, so you knew it? Okay. So you didn't have to, like, go… like… because that's what I always wonder, particularly when it's, like, the people that I know…
• 31:19
  Tad Eggleston: suddenly have this license gig with a property that… and I know video games so poorly that, you know, maybe it's a huge video game, and I just don't know that it's a huge video… Lee is nodding his head to indicate that, yes, anybody who knows video games knows the video game.
• 31:35
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, it's Cyberpunk 2077 by CD Projekt Red. I'm a big gamer. I'm actually working on my third playthrough of the game right now, so…
• 31:43
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: It's a lore that I love. It's amazing. But yeah, that was one of the things that… one, I'm familiar with your work. I read Plastic, you really got me on that one. I'm like, okay, this guy can write, I like him.
• 31:57
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: And then, when I saw your name attached to the CyberPoint 2077, I'm like.
• 32:02
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Okay, like, on board, 100%. So, that was gonna be one of my questions, was, are you familiar with the lore? Did you play the game? Which you obviously did. Were there any characters that you sort of drew inspiration from, or was it more of, you know what.
• 32:17
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I'm taking a horror twist, I'm just gonna go nuts.
• 32:21
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, for me, it was like, I mean, I knew I wanted to play with the scavengers, you know, because just, just, you know, just because of, like, what they do, and how that whole world works with them. And so it was like, hey, how can I do a horror story with scavengers involved, and how, you know, that whole, like, taking chrome? You know, like, and so I wanted to… because they're horror… they're horror automatically, right?
• 32:39
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Absolutely.
• 32:40
  Doug Wagner: You know, they run around stealing people's cybernetics, you know? And so, like, yeah, I knew I wanted to play with them, and I don't play it… I didn't play it… I don't play it a ton because I don't have a time, but, like, I've always been a monster Cyberpunk fan.
• 32:53
  Doug Wagner: So, the fact that the game came out, and I'm like, oh my god, I gotta play this, you know, obviously, you know, Keanu Reeves shows up in it, and I love that, you know, like, it's just a really cool, fun game. You know, it's kind of like, you can run around and do whatever you want in the world if you really want to, and…
• 33:07
  Doug Wagner: I just wanted to dive into it.
• 33:09
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: How did we not know about this book coming out?
• 33:11
  Doug Wagner: Where were we? What, what, like… Lee knew about it.
• 33:16
  Tad Eggleston: I at least kind of dropped the ball on that, because I often tell you about the new stuff.
• 33:22
  Tad Eggleston: And the problem is, I didn't know… I don't… I don't glom on…
• 33:26
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Either!
• 33:27
  Tad Eggleston: Don't glom onto…
• 33:28
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I got the comic.
• 33:30
  Tad Eggleston: I don't glom onto licensed properties automatically, so I really only glom onto them if I know they involve somebody that I either love their work or is a friend of mine. Obviously, Doug, you're both, so I blame you. Why didn't you send me an email saying, hey, I'm doing this…
• 33:49
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I'm upset at everybody here, because he even knows that I like… I'm like, look, I have a little Doug Warren… a shelf with all that. He knows I like it.
• 33:57
  Tad Eggleston: You need to be careful now, Doug. He just admitted that he has a little shrine to you.
• 34:02
  Doug Wagner: I'll take it.
• 34:04
  Tad Eggleston: I mean… That's like… that's like one step away from stop… are there candles?
• 34:12
  Doug Wagner: Not yet.
• 34:13
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I mean, I mean.
• 34:14
  Tad Eggleston: There is a doll. There is a doll. There is a doll!
• 34:18
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: There is a doll, you know?
• 34:21
  Doug Wagner: You know.
• 34:22
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: a horror, like…
• 34:23
  Doug Wagner: Yo.
• 34:24
  Tad Eggleston: Did you buy a blow-up doll and put it on your shelf, and how do you explain that to your children?
• 34:30
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: You know, it's a private shrine.
• 34:37
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: He's not the only crazy one, let me tell you, you know?
• 34:41
  Tad Eggleston: Say that, Doug, you too could become a professional therapist.
• 34:45
  Doug Wagner: No, that I do not want to do. That means I have to ask questions of myself, and I'm not sure I want to answer.
• 34:54
  Tad Eggleston: I thought the whole reason people became therapists was so they could ask questions of other people rather than themselves.
• 34:59
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: That way you avoid your own stuff, yeah, absolutely.
• 35:02
  Doug Wagner: Right! I mean, this is what I noticed. The more the book…
• 35:08
  Doug Wagner: is something that Edgar relates to, the more he's like, this sucks, I don't want to read it anymore!
• 35:16
  Doug Wagner: Hmm.
• 35:18
  Tad Eggleston: See, that's fine, that's.
• 35:19
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I like the serial killer stuff and all that, because I'm like, yeah, okay, I don't do that, you know?
• 35:23
  Tad Eggleston: Right!
• 35:25
  Doug Wagner: But I…
• 35:26
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: you start writing about things that I do, I'm like, Doug, you're gonna get a personal email from me, like, hey.
• 35:31
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Let's switch gears.
• 35:35
  Doug Wagner: Too far above it.
• 35:39
  Tad Eggleston: So, have you done license work before?
• 35:43
  Doug Wagner: I have done a couple licensed books.
• 35:44
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 35:45
  Doug Wagner: But I did a… for about 15… well, 15 years, yeah, I worked for DC Custom.
• 35:50
  Tad Eggleston: Okay, that's right, I remember that.
• 35:52
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, no.
• 35:52
  Tad Eggleston: I remember you telling me about that, I don't remember…
• 35:55
  Tad Eggleston: reading that, because DC Custom is, like… Ray Chevrolet brings you.
• 36:01
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah. Well, you know, did stuff in cereal boxes, and…
• 36:05
  Doug Wagner: I did do World of Warcraft, I did do a…
• 36:07
  Tad Eggleston: Oh, cool.
• 36:08
  Doug Wagner: And then, you know, got a chance to do some actual Batman stuff, so, like, Legends of the Dark Knight, I got to do the online thing there.
• 36:15
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 36:16
  Doug Wagner: I got to work with those guys. So, you know, there was a bunch of licensed stuff involved in there.
• 36:21
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, I guess in my mind, in the comic book world, I separate Marvel DC license from non-comic book license.
• 36:30
  Doug Wagner: Yeah. And that's fair.
• 36:32
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 36:33
  Doug Wagner: It's a totally different beast.
• 36:35
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, that… well, and that's… that's what I was gonna ask, is, like, what's the experience of…
• 36:41
  Tad Eggleston: writing, because I've talked to a lot of people about a lot of different license
• 36:46
  Tad Eggleston: books that they've worked on, and you hear everything from, it was a nightmare, I had to rewrite and rewrite, and every… every time I turned in a script, there would be somebody else who would read it and go, oh no, this is not how it works in our… and it's like, can't you all read it at once?
• 37:05
  Doug Wagner: And there's some truth to that. I mean, it depends on the group you're working with and that kind of stuff.
• 37:09
  Tad Eggleston: And there are other people that are like, pfft, it was easy. They just said, no, this is the comic book. Do your thing.
• 37:16
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, I mean, with Cyberpunk, there was probably… I mean, you had… I had 2 editors at Dark Horse, and then probably four to six at Cyberpunk.
• 37:25
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 37:25
  Doug Wagner: So, luckily, I'd had enough experience to, like, at one point, like, they were kind of sending me random notes individually, and I had to say, hey, you guys gotta get together and agree on your notes. Because they would honestly sometimes… and this is the part of the game. One editor would send me a note, and another editor would send me a note, and they'd be conflicting.
• 37:43
  Tad Eggleston: Right. One of you is saying this character must die, and the other one's saying that he's eternal.
• 37:49
  Tad Eggleston: Fuck, man!
• 37:50
  Doug Wagner: You have to learn how to navigate that a little bit, and not take it, you know, like… yeah, you gotta have a little bit of thick skin when you dive into some of these licensed things, because you are gonna have… I mean, World of Warcraft, I think I had 10 editors.
• 38:04
  Doug Wagner: So, you know, just talking about, like, okay, you're gonna get all these notes, and you gotta…
• 38:08
  Tad Eggleston: What's crazy is it when you've got more editors than there are people actually creating the book?
• 38:14
  Doug Wagner: I mean, dude, they're… and you gotta understand, they're just trying to protect their brand.
• 38:17
  Tad Eggleston: I get… I… I do understand that. I'm not… not, like, actually…
• 38:22
  Tad Eggleston: I get where it comes from and whatnot, but, like, for… particularly because I imagine that part of what you try to do, or at least what the Dark Horse editors are trying to do, is make it as easy as possible for the artist not to have to draw things twice.
• 38:37
  Doug Wagner: Right.
• 38:38
  Tad Eggleston: You guys are taking, like, all of the bullets from… 17 different directions.
• 38:47
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, I mean…
• 38:48
  Tad Eggleston: Not that bad on this book, but, but, like… It's gotta be interesting sometimes.
• 38:55
  Doug Wagner: You get a lot, and some of it you're not going to agree with. You know, sometimes you'll pay on the desk and go, that's a bad idea, but, you know, I gotta kind of do what I'm told. And, you know, you gotta realize, like, it's all opinions.
• 39:06
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, so, so…
• 39:08
  Doug Wagner: dialogue. You know, they're like, hey, I don't agree with this line of dialogue, you need to change it. And you're like, okay. Like, you know…
• 39:15
  Tad Eggleston: So, actually, that leads… I was at a panel once where I'll name the creator that had a great experience, and not the creator that was…
• 39:26
  Tad Eggleston: having to say that their experience was less than, and also not the license property, but… but there were two people that had both done license stuff, and Mark Russell was talking about his time on the Flintstones. He's like.
• 39:40
  Tad Eggleston: I got notes, and the first time I got them, there was this long list of notes, and thank God my editor said, well, like, read them and interpret them how you… how you will, and we'll see where it goes, and…
• 39:53
  Tad Eggleston: And I got away with making the Flintstones that you love. It's like… things like, I had to have yabba Debboo in every issue, and I decided, you know what?
• 40:02
  Tad Eggleston: That's gonna be his curse word.
• 40:07
  Doug Wagner: You know, that sort of thing, whereas the other creator was like.
• 40:11
  Tad Eggleston: It was the worst experience of my life. I was so excited to get this, and I think we made some really cool things, but my God, the amount of times we had to go through, and go through, and go through, and I'm sitting there going.
• 40:28
  Tad Eggleston: I know this property, I grew up with this property, I'm respecting this property, why don't you respect this property?
• 40:37
  Doug Wagner: Dude, and I mean, it's… and the thing is, I mean, with comic book writing, you only get paid once you turn in the pages. What?
• 40:43
  Doug Wagner: You only get paid once. So on some of these, like you're talking about, like, yeah, where there was one,
• 40:49
  Doug Wagner: project where I had to rewrite the script 9 times.
• 40:52
  Doug Wagner: And so that was… that, for me was, like, almost a 3-month period.
• 40:56
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 40:57
  Doug Wagner: 8 at the end of that 3-month period.
• 40:59
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 40:59
  Doug Wagner: You know, I think they sometimes, because they're mostly salaried, they lose, you know, perspective on the fact that, like, hey, you can keep changing all this stuff, but, like, I'm not getting paid.
• 41:09
  Tad Eggleston: Well, and or they're used to Hollywood writers who have…
• 41:16
  Tad Eggleston: You know, once they've been put on the project officially, they do have rewrite fees and whatnot, because of the way the…
• 41:24
  Tad Eggleston: the guild is set up. So, yeah, you're right, there's probably an element where it does not occur to them that every time they make you rewrite it, they're cutting the amount you make for writing it in half, essentially.
• 41:37
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: You could always rewrite it where you add their death in the book, you know, or something.
• 41:42
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Thing that occurs that, you know… you know, you have some creative freedom there.
• 41:48
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Just so you know, I put your name in the next book, and I killed him, you know, kind of thing, like, that's your passive-aggressive threat. Make it backwards.
• 41:59
  Tad Eggleston: I did once talk to, A major superhero character.
• 42:05
  Tad Eggleston: writer who… who… their son was being bullied by a kid that was…
• 42:12
  Tad Eggleston: a big fan of the superhero that they were currently writing, and what they told him was, well, the next time he says that to you, you turn to him and you say, my dad writes blank, and if you don't watch it, he's gonna kill him.
• 42:27
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: There's trauma there.
• 42:29
  Doug Wagner: A little trauma, yeah.
• 42:31
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: job security? It's a little bit of both, yeah.
• 42:34
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: So, Doug, I have a question for you, given that, again, big fan of your work in Cyberpunk, I'll just all blend into one.
• 42:43
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: with this story, and I'm… I'm going to try to ask this in a way that doesn't… I'm not trying to fish for spoilers at all.
• 42:49
  Doug Wagner: Like, oh yeah.
• 42:51
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: How… That means he is. I'm really not. With this particular miniseries.
• 42:56
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Given that it's Night City, sort of, there's no good endings that happen.
• 43:02
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: With these stores, how or… what are you doing to make this one… this store unique?
• 43:08
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: In this world, this lore.
• 43:10
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, I mean, that's always a tough one too, right? Like, I mean, there's so much Night City stuff, and so much Cyberpunk stuff, like, how do you try to make it unique? And for me, my take was, like, you know, obviously create my own characters and kind of have fun with it, but, you know, I don't think they've done a horror miniseries yet.
• 43:25
  Doug Wagner: you know, there's some horror built in automatically anytime you're doing Cyberpunk 2077, but this one's like a straight-up horror flick. You know, so I was following the rules of horror films and those kind of things. And hopefully, it's the characters that stand out. You know, that's what I always try to let you know, I think characters and stories stand out the most, and hopefully people will fall in love with the characters.
• 43:44
  Doug Wagner: Enough to where they're like, hey, I enjoy this.
• 43:47
  Doug Wagner: you know, obviously with Cyberpunk, you can't go too far in one direction or another, because, like I said, I have editors that control me on that. I won't lie, I pushed some boundaries, you know, I'm like, hey, will they let me get away with this, and they didn't. But, you know, I'm hoping that the horror aspect of it and the strong characters make it stand on its own.
• 44:06
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, I will actually read it, and I probably won't bother to learn anything about Cyberpunk 2077 before I read it.
• 44:15
  Doug Wagner: You know, like…
• 44:17
  Tad Eggleston: Lee, if I need to, I'll be calling you, but I will also be the perfect test subject for whether or not it works without… because, like, I didn't even realize it was a property until I looked it up.
• 44:32
  Tad Eggleston: Like, I knew… until you sent the email saying, oh, I'm also doing this, I went…
• 44:37
  Tad Eggleston: I feel like I've seen that somewhere, and I immediately saw that there'd been other comic series, so I'm like, oh, so this is a comic property? And then I looked at it, and I'm like, oh, it's a video game.
• 44:47
  Tad Eggleston: I don't… I still don't know what the video game's about!
• 44:52
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Yeah, and… at least the way I read it, and I'll, one, sort of point this…
• 44:57
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: first part to you, Tad, but then the second part I'll sort of say to Doug is…
• 45:03
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I think it reads very well, like, you don't need to know the lore or the background of CyberPoint 27. It sort of reads as though it's just, again, its own story, right? It just happens in this own universe.
• 45:14
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 45:15
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I'd be interested to know, especially for the both of you that aren't really familiar with the lore, what y'all take away from it. I thought it really…
• 45:22
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: But, going back to your point, Doug, about how it's a horror, Series.
• 45:30
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I was sitting there reading, and I won't… I won't say too much, but I'm sitting there, I was like, I know something's gonna happen, I know something's gonna happen, but then the way it happened was just like.
• 45:40
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Oh, no! That was… Of all.
• 45:44
  Tad Eggleston: Well, and this is…
• 45:45
  Tad Eggleston: This is also really quickly, where we should tell our listeners that while we told them the final order cutoff on Narco is a week from Monday, and therefore let your comic shops know to order Narco for you, Cyberbook… the first issue of CyberBuck
• 45:59
  Tad Eggleston: 2077 Chrome came out 2 weeks ago, so it's already on the shelves, or if you
• 46:05
  Tad Eggleston: can't get it off the shelves, they can order it for you immediately, or you can buy it off of, Global Comics or Neon Ichiban. Lots of places if you want to go read it now, and I will probably be doing that once we're done with the.
• 46:20
  Doug Wagner: Here it is!
• 46:21
  Tad Eggleston: And there's Lee holding up his comic. Is that yours, or is that one available for sale?
• 46:28
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: This is one that's available for sale.
• 46:30
  Tad Eggleston: Okay, so it is available at Modern Age Comics in Algonquin, Illinois, if you're in the Chicagoland market.
• 46:37
  Tad Eggleston: Otherwise, they can ship it to you.
• 46:39
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 46:40
  Tad Eggleston: ModernAgeReader.com.
• 46:44
  Doug Wagner: Gotta get those plugs in there, Doug.
• 46:47
  Tad Eggleston: I finally have… I finally have plugs to put in.
• 46:50
  Doug Wagner: Yo.
• 46:51
  Doug Wagner: Lee, I appreciate what you said, too, because, like, I was… when we were talking about it, like, I wanted to talk about, like.
• 46:56
  Doug Wagner: how can I kick somebody in the balls right out of the gate? You know, as fast as I possibly can? And I'm glad you said that, because, like, that's what we wanted to do, is, like, really, like, almost like a shock jock, you know, kind of like, man, we really want to kick you hard right in the beginning of the story to, like, make you go, oh shit, this isn't normal cyberpunk.
• 47:13
  Tad Eggleston: So you're saying that's become your thing now? Because that's what you did with Narco, too.
• 47:18
  Doug Wagner: I've loved kicking people in the ball since, obviously.
• 47:20
  Tad Eggleston: Well, but, but see, see, see, like, previously in your, your, your first issues, like, there were fantastic kicks, but they were ones that I went, hell yes for, rather than…
• 47:34
  Tad Eggleston: FUCK YOU!
• 47:38
  Tad Eggleston: There's a difference! It's different when you find out that this character you love is the… is the serial killer with the heart of gold.
• 47:48
  Doug Wagner: You know, we gotta mix it up, you know, I don't want to keep doing the same kicking the balls every time, so…
• 47:57
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: First, you gotta get the left side, then you gotta get the right side.
• 48:00
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: A kick and a rub.
• 48:03
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Is what it sounds like.
• 48:08
  Tad Eggleston: That actually… my wife is a big fan of puns, and she's a Midwesterner, and she showed me a meme today, and we won't go down the rabbit hole, but this is too funny and on point not to tell it.
• 48:23
  Tad Eggleston: saying that they've run out of hot dish in Minnesota, and so now they're making kick asserole.
• 48:31
  Doug Wagner: I like it.
• 48:37
  Tad Eggleston: So… ugh.
• 48:41
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I think it's a good time for me to break out of here.
• 48:43
  Tad Eggleston: He's gonna have to run.
• 48:44
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Just wanted to say, love your work. Obviously, now, you have two people here, love your work. I mean, I've loved everything you've had already, so it's just great, but Narco, for everybody out there, pick it up. I don't… just pick… it's a great… it's a great read, but you know what? It doesn't surprise me coming from you, so…
• 49:00
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Always, always, always, always an honor to talk to you and hear about what you're working on.
• 49:05
  Doug Wagner: Same, Edgar, always great talking to you, Lee, it was nice meeting you, and guys, if you… let me know if there's anything I can do to help support the store. I'm always about… you know, we're in a symbiotic relationship. I can't do what I'm doing, and you can't do what I'm doing without each other. So, always feel free to reach out.
• 49:18
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: Appreciate it. You take care, Doug Tad, always a pleasure. Thanks, sir.
• 49:20
  Tad Eggleston: Absolutely. Lee, are you sticking around, or is Edgar taking the computer with him?
• 49:24
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: You can go log in yours if you want.
• 49:27
  Dr. Edgar Ramos: I'll stick around.
• 49:31
  Doug Wagner: See you later, Echo. Good night, man.
• 49:33
  Tad Eggleston: So, I mean, A, I haven't gotten to closing questions yet, but B, I am trying to slow play you a little bit, because Tyler really wanted to come, because he hasn't made it since, like, your second appearance on this show.
• 49:47
  Doug Wagner: Wow, yep.
• 49:48
  Tad Eggleston: I think the last time he made it was…
• 49:51
  Tad Eggleston: Well, actually, it might have been… might have been your third, because I think it was the one where you were with,
• 49:56
  Tad Eggleston: Tim… odd…
• 49:57
  Doug Wagner: Oh yeah, Tim Odeland, yep.
• 49:59
  Tad Eggleston: Oadland, yeah.
• 50:00
  Tad Eggleston: For… oh, no, that was the second appearance. So yeah, he hasn't made it since the second appearance, but he also opened a comic shop, the Nexus Vault, in La Verne, Minnesota. So, as it turns out, as you know.
• 50:15
  Tad Eggleston: Running comic shops, take… take time. He… he… he was… he was thinking that things might be slow enough this afternoon that he could, like, zoom in and just mute… mute himself when… when…
• 50:31
  Tad Eggleston: when he had a customer, but I got a text from him, like, 4 minutes before we started, saying, I'm swamped! I hope that I'll get…
• 50:41
  Doug Wagner: Dude, that's… I mean, I would rather him be… honestly, I'd rather he be swamped at the store than be here.
• 50:46
  Tad Eggleston: And overall, I think he would too, but he misses you.
• 50:53
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, you know, you're a fun guy to talk to, Doug.
• 50:58
  Doug Wagner: Cute.
• 51:02
  Tad Eggleston: I will start towards closing questions, because I don't want to keep you forever. And I have two of them now, so… and one of them, I haven't asked you before, so I'm kind of looking forward to it, because I've heard a lot of stories from you.
• 51:15
  Tad Eggleston: So I'm certain that you have even more.
• 51:18
  Tad Eggleston: like, I'm just entering my fifth year of doing this podcast, and I feel like the last four years have been, like, the Twilight Zone.
• 51:29
  Tad Eggleston: like, my life has just completely changed, whether it's being able to hang out with Doug Wagner on a Saturday night, or come by your table at C2E2 and have you, like, recognize me and chat and blah blah blah, or…
• 51:45
  Tad Eggleston: You know, going to baseball games with people who…
• 51:49
  Tad Eggleston: used to just be names in comic books to me. It's like, I feel like I live in this…
• 51:54
  Tad Eggleston: whole different world. It's even more weird, because, like.
• 51:58
  Tad Eggleston: As we have not talked about and will not talk about, the world that we live in right now is among the worst possible timelines, so it feels really, really weird to me that my personal timeline is, like, suddenly so much better than the first 40 years of my life.
• 52:16
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, that's awesome.
• 52:17
  Tad Eggleston: And it's because of the surreal nature of the world of comics, where, you know, it's just such a close community, where…
• 52:26
  Tad Eggleston: A, you know, superstars don't realize they're superstars, or don't care that they're superstars, they'll hang out with whoever. We discover all the time
• 52:37
  Tad Eggleston: people are comics fans that were shocked are comics fans. You know, twice when I've asked the question I'm about to ask, I've gotten stories involving Quentin Tarantino. One of them actually involved Quentin Tarantino's mom, which just, like.
• 52:52
  Tad Eggleston: So, so one of my new questions is,
• 52:59
  Tad Eggleston: Tell me one of those surreal stories from your comics career. Tell me one of those…
• 53:04
  Tad Eggleston: One of those things that even thinking about it now, you, like, pinch yourself, because it's like, did that really happen? And, like, if you were to tell the 10-year-old self, or the 20-year-old self, or whatever age you were right before you started having these experiences on a regular basis, that they were gonna be able to, like.
• 53:25
  Tad Eggleston: One day do that, they would have gone, yeah, fuck you.
• 53:29
  Tad Eggleston: Sure, yikes.
• 53:30
  Doug Wagner: I mean, I've been lucky that there's been plenty, you know, like.
• 53:32
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, everybody has.
• 53:34
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, and it's… I feel blessed with so many of them, you know, and I think.
• 53:38
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 53:38
  Doug Wagner: immediately came to mind was, one night at the end of San Diego Comic-Con. So.
• 53:44
  Doug Wagner: this is when 12-gauge set up a booth at 12G… I mean, at San Diego, and one of the people she had done a book with us, Rosario Dawson, had done a book with us.
• 53:53
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 53:54
  Doug Wagner: So she's signing the whole weekend.
• 53:56
  Doug Wagner: And so, like, the last night, she's like, hey, we're gonna go out and party, like, we're gonna have a good time, blah blah blah blah, so we go out, we all go out, like, she's buying shots from people that she doesn't even know, you know, strangers, you know, on the… you know, like, the… she took all the female waitresses into the restroom, and they all share a shot together.
• 54:15
  Doug Wagner: You know, like, she's just this amazing person. And so, like, Jason Pearson, who's no longer with us, but he was there too, like, he… he and Kevin Gardner are absolutely wasted. Like, they're trash beyond belief, right? Like, and so, Jason, when he gets drunk, he would get, like, really super hyper. And so, at one point, he takes off running, and he dives on our table.
• 54:33
  Doug Wagner: Right? Like, slides across the table with all the beer bottles and shot glasses and everything shooting through the air, you know, like, and you could tell the manager at the place was like, and Rosario was like, don't worry, I'll cover it.
• 54:47
  Doug Wagner: You know, like, she was super cool, super nice, one of the nicest, sweetest people I've ever met. And so the whole night's just, like, this whole, like, non-stop craziness, like that stuff coming out. I never thought in any timeline I would get to party with a Rosario Dawson, or even just.
• 55:01
  Tad Eggleston: out with.
• 55:02
  Doug Wagner: Right. So, like, this is 3 o'clock in the morning, the only two people that aren't drunk are Brian Stelfrys and myself.
• 55:10
  Doug Wagner: And so then she goes, you know what, we need to go back to the hotel room and count all the money.
• 55:15
  Doug Wagner: This is 3 AM.
• 55:17
  Doug Wagner: So we all go back to the, you know, we're walking back to the hotel in the middle of the night. Brian and I are the only two that can really walk a straight line, so we're almost like… it's like herding cats, right? Like, we're like we're.
• 55:30
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 55:30
  Doug Wagner: Falls or trips and that kind of stuff.
• 55:33
  Doug Wagner: half of the people don't even know where they're at. Like, Jason Pearson and Kevin Gardner are so drunk, they have no clue they're even in San Diego. So we get to the hotel room, and we're counting all the… so it comes, of course, because we're the only submer ones, Brian and I have to count all the cash.
• 55:46
  Doug Wagner: And, you know, from her signing and stuff. And I won't lie, I was a little bit jealous, you know, we're… they're trying to figure out how to divvy up $50,000 in cash.
• 55:55
  Doug Wagner: And you're…
• 55:56
  Tad Eggleston: And you're like, 10,000 for the people who count it.
• 55:58
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, exactly, that's what we're thinking, but Brian and I are a little too honest.
• 56:02
  Doug Wagner: So then, we have to walk Kevin back to his hotel room, who's still trashed, but he's just holding 10 grand in his hand. No envelope, no bag, he's just holding a handful of cash in his hand. As he's walking down the aisle to leave, he has to lean up against the wall to keep himself up.
• 56:20
  Doug Wagner: So every time he comes to the door, ba-boop, ba-boop, we catch him walking to the next door, you know, so, like, it was just one of those surreal nights that, like, you know, you never planned for, you couldn't possibly plan for.
• 56:30
  Tad Eggleston: And you didn't decide to go… let me hold that for you.
• 56:35
  Doug Wagner: Oh, no, I mean, well, Brian and I had a talk halfway through on whether we should mug him or not, because we're not sure he'd remember.
• 56:41
  Tad Eggleston: That's my point!
• 56:43
  Doug Wagner: He's our friend, like, he's probably gonna realize we took it. You know, like, it's… but yeah, it was just one of those.
• 56:50
  Tad Eggleston: No, he's your friend! He would never assume that you were the one that took it.
• 56:55
  Doug Wagner: It's just one of those crazy, fun nights that, like, you know…
• 56:57
  Tad Eggleston: He was hammered. He'd assumed that he'd given it to the bellboy that helped him get to his room.
• 57:03
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, it was just… it was just one of those, like you said, it was a surreal experience, and like I said, I mean, Rosario ended up being, like, one of the nicest, sweetest.
• 57:10
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 57:11
  Doug Wagner: for Met My Life.
• 57:12
  Tad Eggleston: That's so amazing, though I do… I do have to say, the one thing that would have made it better, when everything got knocked off the table, and she was telling the manager that she'd take care of it, the next thing she should have done is gotten a broom and made him clean up all the glass.
• 57:30
  Doug Wagner: He knew we were out of control. She was like, hey, listen, this is gonna stay out of control for a while, but we'll…
• 57:35
  Tad Eggleston: Make sure everybody's compensated properly. Right.
• 57:39
  Doug Wagner: So, yeah.
• 57:39
  Tad Eggleston: It still would have been funnier. That might be a way to write it in one of your comics in the future. Have the person who was seemingly drunk suddenly be very stern.
• 57:50
  Tad Eggleston: Those ladies are gonna have to clean up tonight, not after your shit.
• 57:57
  Doug Wagner: But yeah, it was just a wonderful, like, you know, I've met her a couple of times.
• 58:00
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 58:01
  Doug Wagner: Like, very humble, very sweet.
• 58:04
  Tad Eggleston: Well, and I've heard that she's, like, a real geek, too.
• 58:06
  Doug Wagner: Oh yeah, she is, yeah, she's a super geek, yep.
• 58:09
  Tad Eggleston: You know, that it's not just that she does this stuff
• 58:13
  Tad Eggleston: because she happens to be in Geek's… I mean, I've heard that, like, she's in…
• 58:19
  Tad Eggleston: Sin City, because she heard it was being made, and she called Robert Rodriguez and said, you're putting me in Sin City.
• 58:27
  Doug Wagner: She loves all that stuff. She loves San Diego, she loved all the people.
• 58:31
  Doug Wagner: It was awful.
• 58:32
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 58:32
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, yeah. That's such a fantastic story. Well, if Tyler doesn't show up in the next few minutes, I will apologize to him and cry, but it'll also mean that he probably made more money today, so we'll only cry a little bit, and we're gonna… we're gonna jump to the general final question that you've had to answer many, many times.
• 58:54
  Tad Eggleston: I don't remember your other answers.
• 58:56
  Doug Wagner: I won't either.
• 58:57
  Tad Eggleston: So, if you wind up giving another one again, I probably won't call you out on it.
• 59:03
  Tad Eggleston: But if you do… if it immediately rings a bell, like, the last time Mark Russell was on, he tried to give me the same answer that he'd given, like, 2 times before, and I'm like, no, no, no, no. You have said that before. I need a different one.
• 59:18
  Tad Eggleston: Tell me something you love.
• 59:20
  Tad Eggleston: Preferably a comic book, but we don't really have rules.
• 59:24
  Tad Eggleston: Preferably storytelling, but again, with the rules. But something that you love.
• 59:29
  Tad Eggleston: That not enough people around you have experienced, and you need them to.
• 59:33
  Tad Eggleston: So that you have more people to talk about it with.
• 59:37
  Doug Wagner: You know, this is a cool one, because I just re-read… I bought the hardcover.
• 59:41
  Doug Wagner: And re-read Cosmic Odyssey.
• 59:44
  Tad Eggleston: Bong.
• 59:45
  Doug Wagner: And it is still maybe my favorite DC story, you know, self-contained story that I've ever read.
• 59:51
  Doug Wagner: I love it from cover to cover. Mike Mignola did the artwork on it. Jim Starlin wrote it. It's one of my favorite team-up books ever.
• 1:00:00
  Tad Eggleston: I don't know if I've read this.
• 1:00:01
  Doug Wagner: You should. You know, I don't…
• 1:00:03
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, you just said, like, Starlin and Migniola, so I'm kind of surprised that I haven't read it.
• 1:00:11
  Doug Wagner: They just didn't re-release the hardcover recently.
• 1:00:13
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 1:00:14
  Doug Wagner: I was like, you know, I haven't read this in a while, I'm gonna check it out, and I loved it. It's just so much fun. The way they handle Batman is maybe one of the best Batman…
• 1:00:22
  Doug Wagner: handlings I've ever seen.
• 1:00:25
  Doug Wagner: Of course, the way Jim Sarum branches them out is fantastic.
• 1:00:31
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah.
• 1:00:32
  Doug Wagner: Check it out. I love it.
• 1:00:33
  Tad Eggleston: I… I… I am…
• 1:00:36
  Tad Eggleston: I don't know, I mean, I guess… I guess the reason I don't know this is that it's just, like…
• 1:00:44
  Tad Eggleston: dead on the wrong time for me not to know it, and hasn't been re-released enough times for it to have popped onto my radar, because it came out in 1988, which is when I went from comics to baseball and hadn't come back to comics yet.
• 1:00:58
  Doug Wagner: Nope.
• 1:00:58
  Tad Eggleston: And it's DC, where I've always been a Marvel guy.
• 1:01:04
  Tad Eggleston: You know, it took me a long time to get into DC. But yeah, no, we got Darkseid, we got… yeah, no, this…
• 1:01:13
  Doug Wagner: Yeah, it's a cosmic… it's a cosmic odyssey, you know?
• 1:01:16
  Tad Eggleston: I am impressed enough when people come up… I mean, I ask this question in hopes of finding things that I haven't heard of and I have to go find, or things that I have, but I need to put higher on my pile, or whatever, right?
• 1:01:31
  Tad Eggleston: So I'm always impressed when somebody comes up with something that I haven't heard of, but you not only managed to come up with something that I haven't heard of.
• 1:01:40
  Tad Eggleston: But something that I hadn't heard of from fucking DC Comics.
• 1:01:44
  Doug Wagner: Yeah.
• 1:01:45
  Tad Eggleston: It also looks so good that I could read it
• 1:01:49
  Tad Eggleston: by the end of the weekend, depending on, like, just how all of the rest of my schedule…
• 1:01:55
  Tad Eggleston: Plays out, which is just…
• 1:01:58
  Tad Eggleston: That, Doug, that right there is almost as impressive as your writing generally is, and almost
• 1:02:06
  Tad Eggleston: almost makes me forgive you for the end of Narco Issue 1. But.
• 1:02:12
  Zoom user: I gotta jump in here, too, because I didn't hear anything about Narco, I'll be honest with you, I didn't hear anything, but when I heard… I did hear Edgar and Ted talking about it, I'm like, what? I think I need to read this now. I think I need my balls kicked twice.
• 1:02:29
  Doug Wagner: And that's okay to say you enjoyed it, you know, like… Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:34
  Doug Wagner: I'm gonna throw out one more, because I think…
• 1:02:36
  Tad Eggleston: Police?
• 1:02:36
  Doug Wagner: 5 to DC, we gotta do indie as well, and there's a.
• 1:02:38
  Tad Eggleston: Okay.
• 1:02:39
  Doug Wagner: D-R-O-M-E.
• 1:02:41
  Tad Eggleston: What was that?
• 1:02:42
  Doug Wagner: E-R-O…
• 1:02:44
  Tad Eggleston: Jesse Lonergan.
• 1:02:46
  Doug Wagner: Yep.
• 1:02:47
  Tad Eggleston: It was…
• 1:02:48
  Doug Wagner: It's fantastic.
• 1:02:49
  Tad Eggleston: It was my graphic novel of the year for last year.
• 1:02:51
  Doug Wagner: Government.
• 1:02:52
  Tad Eggleston: That has gotten lots of attention on this show, and it is.
• 1:02:55
  Doug Wagner: It's.
• 1:02:55
  Tad Eggleston: Also, at, at, and, like, I just told Lee about this,
• 1:03:02
  Tad Eggleston: he's working with Mignola on Ms. Truesdale.
• 1:03:06
  Doug Wagner: Oh yeah, that'll be fantastic.
• 1:03:07
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, I… I mean, it is fantastic. The first issue… two issues were out, and they did… it's their second edition that they're… they're doing together.
• 1:03:16
  Tad Eggleston: that, like, I don't generally buy single issues of… of… Hellboy stuff, just because…
• 1:03:29
  Tad Eggleston: I'm never gonna manage to get all the back issues at this point.
• 1:03:32
  Doug Wagner: Right.
• 1:03:33
  Tad Eggleston: so the completess in me is like, okay, like, I don't want to get to the point where I start going, oh, I need to go track down
• 1:03:41
  Tad Eggleston: I buy nice Hulk hardcovers and whatnot, but…
• 1:03:45
  Tad Eggleston: But Jesse Lonergan? Yeah, I buy everything Jesse does.
• 1:03:52
  Tad Eggleston: I… I… I love. Actually, This is how much I love Jerome.
• 1:03:58
  Tad Eggleston: Drome has been my graphic novel of the year on 22 panels.
• 1:04:03
  Tad Eggleston: Twice.
• 1:04:04
  Tad Eggleston: Wow. Because when it was unpublished, but available through his Patreon.
• 1:04:09
  Tad Eggleston: He'd finished it up in 2023.
• 1:04:13
  Tad Eggleston: And, like, not only had I read it page by page that he posted it, like, he put together the PDF with the whole thing, and when I read the whole thing together.
• 1:04:22
  Tad Eggleston: It was my graph… it was… it was unpublished, and it was my graphic novel of the year in 2023. And then it was my graphic novel of the year again in 2025, and it's beautiful, beautiful hardcover form.
• 1:04:33
  Tad Eggleston: This is me saying again that anybody who hasn't read Jesse Lonergan needs to go and read literally anything he does. For that matter, the comp…
• 1:04:43
  Tad Eggleston: the conversation… have you read, any Bad… well, you… they did some work for Bad Ideas, so have you been reading,
• 1:04:49
  Tad Eggleston: Have you seen Matt Kent's Save Now?
• 1:04:52
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah.
• 1:04:53
  Tad Eggleston: It's so good, did you see the save now zero?
• 1:04:56
  Doug Wagner: I hadn't seen the save now zero.
• 1:04:57
  Tad Eggleston: That came out this week.
• 1:04:59
  Doug Wagner: Oh, wow.
• 1:04:59
  Tad Eggleston: And all of the… All of the…
• 1:05:04
  Tad Eggleston: solicitation for it only mentioned Juan Jose Ripp, who I love, so, you know, that was cool.
• 1:05:10
  Doug Wagner: Oh, cool.
• 1:05:12
  Tad Eggleston: But there are also short stories done by Cano, and Jesse Lonergan.
• 1:05:19
  Doug Wagner: Nice. And the Jesse Lonergan short story is, like.
• 1:05:23
  Tad Eggleston: worth the price of admission, and then some. And it's like, how do you not solicit that… that this is in this?
• 1:05:33
  Tad Eggleston: And still sell a crap ton of them, so, I mean, clearly, it was…
• 1:05:38
  Tad Eggleston: But that's kind of been a bad idea thing. I mean, the bad idea was the company that, like, made the surprise backup story of Matt Kent and David Lapham's hero trade.
• 1:05:50
  Doug Wagner: Oh, yeah? Dude, that's… Dinesh is a little bit on the insane side, and he's like, hey, I'm gonna always put something in a book that you… that I'm not gonna tell anybody about.
• 1:05:59
  Tad Eggleston: Right.
• 1:06:00
  Doug Wagner: Or, hey, I'm gonna put out an issue, and nobody knows it's coming. Like, Robert Kirkman are like that, right? Like, they'll just go, hey, crazy idea, and I'm gonna do it. And they do it.
• 1:06:09
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, there's still been no greater… holy shit, then Kirkman ending…
• 1:06:17
  Tad Eggleston: Walking Dead, even though he'd solicited two more issues.
• 1:06:21
  Doug Wagner: Yup.
• 1:06:22
  Doug Wagner: He's insane! I love him, but he's insane!
• 1:06:27
  Tad Eggleston: Well, but, you're like… I mean, even with… I was working in a shop at the time, and there were people so pissed off about it and whatnot, and I'm like…
• 1:06:35
  Tad Eggleston: The more I think about it, the more this is how it had to be.
• 1:06:39
  Doug Wagner: Hmm?
• 1:06:40
  Tad Eggleston: Because… because not only… Did he…
• 1:06:44
  Tad Eggleston: Not only would it not have worked as well if we knew it was coming to an end.
• 1:06:50
  Tad Eggleston: He also did the impossible in this issue.
• 1:06:55
  Tad Eggleston: Which is, he managed to give Walking Dead a happy ending.
• 1:07:00
  Doug Wagner: Nope.
• 1:07:03
  Tad Eggleston: I literally, for years, I had sold Walking Dead and Saga right next to each other, and one of the things that I would say to differentiate them, because
• 1:07:13
  Tad Eggleston: I mean, obviously they're very different stories, but what they have in common is that they're absolutely stories of human endurance. It's like, what can you be put through and hold on to your humanity, to keep going, to whatever?
• 1:07:29
  Tad Eggleston: And then I'd say, but the thing about Saga is it's narrated by the girl born on the opening pages, so it's got a better than average chance of a happy ending, and I just can't see that with Walking Dead.
• 1:07:44
  Doug Wagner: Right.
• 1:07:44
  Tad Eggleston: And then he fucking did it!
• 1:07:48
  Doug Wagner: Which is unlike Robert.
• 1:07:52
  Tad Eggleston: He fucking did it! He pulled off the happy ending, and again, pulled it off even more, because the whole time we're reading it…
• 1:08:01
  Tad Eggleston: We don't know what's the ending. It's not until we get to the end that we go, oh, wait a minute, this is where it stops? Holy shit!
• 1:08:09
  Tad Eggleston: That was amazing!
• 1:08:11
  Doug Wagner: Pretty cool.
• 1:08:14
  Tad Eggleston: Doug, it is always, always a pleasure. If you're ever out in Minnesota, Tyler would love to see you at Nexus Vault in La Verne, and I'll remind him to
• 1:08:27
  Tad Eggleston: Reach out to you, and probably tell him about what you do for people who boost your books in terms of mitigating their sales.
• 1:08:37
  Tad Eggleston: And,
• 1:08:41
  Tad Eggleston: Obviously, if you're in Chicagoland, we want you out at, Modern Age Comics. Yeah, we could leave.
• 1:08:46
  Zoom user: Love to have you, man. I love you.
• 1:08:48
  Tad Eggleston: Lee's like, Lee's like, I have a car, I'll drive to Utah, and then I'll drive back to Chicago. You wanna come tomorrow?
• 1:08:54
  Doug Wagner: Yep, I can…
• 1:08:55
  Tad Eggleston: be there by, like, 6 AM.
• 1:08:58
  Tad Eggleston: I'm young, I don't need sleep.
• 1:09:01
  Doug Wagner: It's been a couple of years, you know, I need some more good food, so yeah, I'll be out back out to Chicago here pretty soon.
• 1:09:08
  Tad Eggleston: I love it.
• 1:09:08
  Zoom user: We'll definitely have some good food here.
• 1:09:11
  Doug Wagner: Yeah. I like to hear.
• 1:09:12
  Tad Eggleston: Edgar's actually an outstanding cook, so, like…
• 1:09:17
  Tad Eggleston: We can both take you to nice restaurants and just take you home with him.
• 1:09:21
  Doug Wagner: Well, that scares me a little bit. I mean, he just did admit to having, you know, a temple.
• 1:09:26
  Tad Eggleston: That's true, but he's also got…
• 1:09:28
  Zoom user: A lot of times.
• 1:09:28
  Tad Eggleston: He's also got a wife and two young children to keep him in line.
• 1:09:31
  Doug Wagner: But you can send those over to Mom's house pretty quick. Well, no, Mom's house is, I think, closer to the comic shop. I write this stuff, I know how this goes.
• 1:09:43
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah, yeah, so maybe you won't take advantage of his cabin.
• 1:09:51
  Tad Eggleston: Cabin in the Woods, just… I feel like that's even been the title of something.
• 1:09:58
  Doug Wagner: Pad.
• 1:09:58
  Tad Eggleston: your tongue!
• 1:09:59
  Doug Wagner: having me on. Lee, it was Thank you.
• 1:10:03
  Tad Eggleston: Yeah. For Doug Wagner, this has been 22 Panels. We will see you after the next page.