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What I've Learnt - Dr. Katie Allen · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what makes a superintelligent doctor and professor with a stellar career in medicine and academia, a mother of four, immerse herself in the complex, often tough fray of politics.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Having dedicated her life to the well-being of others and navigated pivotal roles in public health, including as a pediatrician at the Royal Children's Hospital for 28 years, she is now at the proverbial hustings, united in her mission, working closely with Treasurer Josh Freidenberg and the Liberals on the election battleground.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: As the power of the independence looms large to challenge what has always been very safe Liberal seats, Katie's lived in the Higgins electorate for 40 years after growing up in Aubrey, New South Wales.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: She was sworn in as the member for Higgins at the opening of the 46th Parliament in Canberra, making her first speech in 2019, where she took the opportunity to speak about her passion for her diverse local community.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: She outlined her vision for ensuring a healthy and educated start to life for the next generation, an environmentally and economically sustainable future for all, lower taxes, and a strong economy.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's not much this Powerhouse hasn't done.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we discussed how she navigates the juggle of family and public political life.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: How does she do it?
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, Katie, welcome.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thrilled to have you joining me to talk all things politics, family, and just the juggle, which we all have.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, how does a girl from Aubrey find herself in the big smoke in the heart of one of Australia's biggest political battles?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: How Deb, great introduction.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much, Doreen.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm pleased to be able to be on having a chat with you.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Look, I do often get asked why on earth would someone like you, who's been working as a pediatrician, then want to become a politician.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose the main reason is that you've done a lot with my life.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I've made a difference in medicine and in medical research.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to give back.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: I actually went to see the of the hospital at the Royal Children's when I was deciding to run politically.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: And her response and the immediate response was typical of what people were saying at the time of wow, that's brave, that's courageous, and a little bit disapproving.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then she did something that actually made it stand up.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: She said, Do you know, K, I can't think of a better way to serve my country.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, that's it, that's why I'm doing it.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I I sense in that kind of patriotism, which is something that we're not altogether familiar with here, in terms of, you know, that tends to be associated with the, you know, the US and that sort of, but but there's nothing wrong with that.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's actually a probably a very important element that you need to embrace in order to do what you're doing.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you're saying.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I've served my family because I've raised four kids and then now left home.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I have more time to give back.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: I've served my community because I've been on the board of a hospital, local hospital, chair of a local school board, um, and I've also, you know, had a great research career since serving the families of Victoria.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I suppose for me, it's getting inside the big tent and helping make the big decisions for the country.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I love serving my community as a local member.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's you know, through COVID, it's been so local.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, every day, hundreds of emails and phone calls helping people navigate COVID has been extremely.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been like being a doctor for the community, but instead of helping them with their tummy pains, I'll be helping them with their NDIS or with their visa requirements, or they're trying to get reunited with their families.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: So they're just sort of still community issues, but with problem solving locally.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: You're talking big picture, but at the same time whole face, aren't you?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're dealing with one-on-one people in the community.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: All politics is local, as they say, but our democracy is 151 local MPs coming together and making the big decisions for the future of our country.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that all happens in the big tent up in Canberra.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's both.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it reminds me a bit of being a doctor and a medical researcher.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I loved medical research, but I would speak to my patients about what the problems were, and then I'd go to the medical research environment to try and solve them.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: And the same with being an MP.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: I hear from my community what's keeping you up at night?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: What do I need to help you?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then I got up to Canberra, which is the big tip, and say, this is what I'm fighting for for my community, and this is what my community thinks, the future of the country needs.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, I think that grassroots approach is actually the key that a lot of people don't fully understand that element of how you need to be listening very intently one-on-one, but also you do have to go, as you say, to parliament to get actual traction and transition.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that's that's where the frustration was for me, is that we were giving a lot of advice to you know health ministers at state and federal level.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so, you know, I just I like to be a receptacle on the inside, so to speak, with science background, with an evidence-based approach, with an expert-informed opinion.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: So governance, um, when you're running a board of a hospital or of a school, it's all about drawing ideas from the experts.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: But then at the end of the day, the board and the chairman of the board are the ones that make the decision that enable things to happen.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a bit like that in politics.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: The executive of the government is what ultimately makes the decision.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the ministerial portfolios and the prime minister.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: But they seek their advice from the backbench.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: They seek their advice from people who are representing their community.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And how hard was it for you to adjust?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I suppose because you'd had so much experience in the in the CEO context and you've been on boards, as you say, it's not dissimilar.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Did that prepare you a lot for navigating the politics?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was actually surprised by how easy the transition was.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: I used to say to people, in medical church, it's 80% content and 20% politics.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, in real politics, it's 80% politics and 20% content.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, in my view, everything is political, you know, when you have relationship negotiations.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, Katie, you you were just referring to the notion of, you know, it's like a family that makes a decision to change something.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Can you just elaborate a little bit more on that?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: That was interesting.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's like you get in a car with your family, you're deciding, do you go to an Italian restaurant or Japanese restaurant?
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: And um, one one day you might say, Look, it's going to be the Italian restaurant, and someone says, Look, I'm really unhappy with that.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's negotiate.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: We go Italian this time and Japanese next time.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that sort of negotiation aspect, that's kind of what politics is.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And people get upset when they hear that, you know, not everyone wins all of the time.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: But in fact, that's what politics is about.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so you get politics in families, or you get politics in institutions or businesses, and you get politics in politics.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: So the skills you have to work as part of a team is what is the basic premise for politics.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, it's interesting because you obviously have to learn to navigate that quite early on in your career, because medicine by nature is that, and it's about relationships and it's about ensuring that, you know, uh, like my daughter's doing medicine, so I know you have to climb the ladder and you have to be very uh, I suppose, mindful of what is required expectation, listening, understanding, all of those things.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think there's skills you learned early on?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and growing up, were there mentors or people that really inspired you in that sense?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: Insight into the value of those relationships or that ability to communicate, which is not for everyone, not everyone can do it.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first thing to say is that I am an extreme extrovert.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I love talking to people, I love being with people.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of a kind of a probably necessary um, you know, characteristic, I think, being being a politician, because you spend a lot of time with people.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I've been brought up in an environment of doctors and nurses and teachers, and that's all about to you know, emulate my father.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: He was, you know, a much loved community doctor.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: The community loved him and he served them by being there for them.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I was one of four kids, uh, two older brothers and a younger sister, and it was a very contested space.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there was a lot of Me too.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up with the same.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: I my father was a doctor and four of us, so I understand you.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: And to you know, argue a case at the dinner table to get your way.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's a lot of persuasion that was happening and arguing.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I probably, you know, I went to boarding school uh in year nine, and I remember my brother saying she's not going to survive.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: He's too bumptious.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that shaped you.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely, boarding school would do that.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: That there's no uh tiptoeing, is there?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: No, you need to learn to get on with others.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I think boarding school was a very defining moment for me and and you know, made me question a little bit, you know, how do I influence others and and you know, do it in a way that's kind of brings people together.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I became, you know, I I remember when I was in year 12, I was nominated to be school vice captain and boarding house captain in the same in the same poll, I suppose, and I failed to get either of those.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was nominated to be sports captain and sports vice captain and house captain.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: I kept not being nominated by the year older than me because they obviously thought I had some levels.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um and eventually I did become the house vice captain, but I remember thing being kind of rejected six or seven times before I was given a leadership position, which was you know very um, humble progress.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: So do you think we learn as much from our failures as we do from our successes?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I I've had as a medical researcher, you get a lot of failures.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's only a I think somewhere between around 10% success rate for medical research projects.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I always say to people, if it's a good idea, stick with it and it will win through.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so take the feedback and change the idea and improve it.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: But if it's a bad idea, throw it out and start again.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: So get feedback, listen to it.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: But if it's a good idea, you've only failed when you stop trying.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: And clearly, persistence is definitely a trait that I observe in your career.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you couldn't possibly have got where you've got, and also just the reality of for children.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: I have children myself, and I know what it requires is, you know, tenacity and persistence and consistency, which is another thing.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think that they're innate or do you think they're enculturated, those sort of traits, or is it a combination?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that um I do think these things are pretty innate.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I think that you can you can learn skills, um, but that sort of innate drive.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've often been sort of said, you you why do you keep pushing so hard?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I say it's a little bit like if you look at horses in a paddock, you know, there'll be someone who'll be quietly chewing their card and you know enjoying their hay.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there'll be the frisky ones up the back who have got more energy.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I have been given an abundance of energy.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I often say that I've probably a bit overconfigured for being at home.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: Though, you know, being at home with your family is the most joyous, wonderful experience.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I would have been uh a little bit pungent to be at home full time.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: I I hear you.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that's true because I think you can't really um, I suppose when you've got certain traits like you have, but also the energy and the drive, you need to get out into the in into the fray, as I refer to in the introduction.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and whether it be politics or medicine, I mean, how did medicine and the complexities of those many board roles prepare you for your role as an MP?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think they did?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you mentioned, yes, you you developed the ability to communicate clearly, but also to to, you know, I suppose there's tussles along the way.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: I actually think three parts to the role I have as a as a member of parliament.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: The first one is a community, serving the community and being a doctor and serving my community comparing perfectly for dealing with people from all sorts of, you know, all backgrounds, all sorts of walks of life, and um having different opinions, not necessarily the same as mine, but being there to help them, to listen and to help them.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, running a political campaign is a bit like being a medical researcher where you have an idea, no one hands it to you on a plate.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: You need to bring the team together, you need to give them a vision, you need to encourage them, um, you need to raise funds, um, you also need to talk to the media.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: All those things are what medical researchers do.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: So those experiences definitely prepared me for running a political campaign.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then being up in Canberra, I always say, is a bit like being in an international conference, trying to fight for the best outcome.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you need to come together and find common ground.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you're used to uniting with people to find a solution, is what you're saying, which is what attracts you to this sort of political sphere.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: And you've worked as a pediatrician and seen some of the toughest battles, including dealing with sick children, it doesn't get tougher than that, and their families, and obviously seeing some heal, hopefully, and get better.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think it contextualises the notion of hardship and gives you a capacity to stay calm and focused and not panic under pressure?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because you've almost seen, in a sense, the worst of what can happen.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I think my experiences that I've faced as a as a doctor dealing with families who are facing suffering and illness, and as you say, sometimes death does prepare you for when people in the community are facing a crisis.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I hear about people who are on the front line as doctors and nurses, and I know what that's like, but I can tell you being on the front line as an MP is not too dissimilar because people come to you not necessarily with their family members or because their business is dying.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: So um there's there's still extremists and distress in their lives.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so often I think the preparation I've had of dealing with people facing stress and being someone with public public health background also helped me because I my team we'd we'd meet on a daily basis to do crisis response, and I'd be training them and educating them on how to deal with people you know who are suffering and who are really sometimes angry and just disorientated and not knowing what's going on.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd say to them, you know, this is what is likely to happen because I'd kind of seen it before.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: And and they couldn't understand how I knew, but having been a public health person, I could see where things were going.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: I had a clearer view.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: And that's as you say, kind of pattern matching when you've when you've been in a governance role or when you've been a public health professor, you have that ability to see, you know, above just being in the coal mine, you can actually see what's going on at a bigger picture level.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's really the capacity to triage, isn't it?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what being a mum gives you.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think mums are really able to, you know, they always talk about multitasking, but it's true.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and I did a Zoom call with a lot of professionals, and this um very senior businessman um was our keynote speaker, and and I said, What do you think is the most interesting thing to come out of COVID?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Well, the ability for people to do flexi time and use, you know, um Zoom.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, What do you mean?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Women have been doing this forever.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how many of us are going to pick up the kids from school or take a phone call when cooking dinner?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we've been doing that, we've been doing that sexy time because we wanted to be able to be available for our family and we wanted to hold down a good job.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: Multitasking, we are masters of it because we've had to be.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's true.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a very good point.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: So on that note, I suppose the idea of women in politics, certainly the gender lens is much improved having women in positions of power and certainly in the decision-making seat or contributing dramatically to that decision-making process.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: What's your experience and observation?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Is the gender lens improving?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Are we getting more representation?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Which I observe we are, but I'd be interested in your perspective on that.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my um cousin um uh it was Margaret Bonfield, she's my father's second cousin, I think, or third cousin.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And she was the UK's first female cabinet minister in 1929 to 1931.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And she had to choose between a career and family.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: We don't need to do that anymore.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we still have a way to go, but a lot of significant changes have happened, some more slowly than others.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Medicine and particularly pediatrics is at the forefront of women being able to basically get to the very top.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there are some professions that they're still, you know, women are lagging behind.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Australian politics has been um behind, uh, but it's catching up very, very fast now.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, you just have to look at the slate of women in politics during this election and on both sides, and it's certainly more than it used to be when I look back when I was at university.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, there were very few female politicians.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now there's there's quite a slew of them, which is which is excellent.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think, though, that they bring to the table fresher insight?
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that men don't.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's not to that's not to, by the way, belittle or um diminish men, because I really you know think men are great and I'm pivotal and I'm not one of, and I think that's an important thing too.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: How do you find working with men and with women in this sphere?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: When I walk into the workplace, I think, what are my skills set and what are my relationships?
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: So when I walk in, I'm like, you know, I'm a doctor and I'm an intern or I'm the director of the research theme.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that kind of puts you into that's the sort of place where you start.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then, you know, am I good at my job?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: But those sort of things come first for me.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Am I a kind and caring person and I someone who can make good decisions?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Do I work hard?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not gendered, that's not a gendered approach to the workplace.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: I my approach to workplace is a humanist approach to workplace.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I do know in in politics you can't be what you see.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to increase the numbers, and that is now happening.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I've always said, you know, once we work out that people will vote for women, and then the political parties will follow suit.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And we're seeing that particularly in this election, there's so many more women putting being put forward because we realise that women want to see more of themselves there.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the question is, what why do we need to have women?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, as I said before, women, you can't be what you can't see.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: So having women and diversity in the parliamentary workplace that reflects modern Australia is incredibly important.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: But um also women change the conversation.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, look at Roe versus Wade and what's happening in the US.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: You can't help but think when you look at that, I mean, you look at that court, you just in awe that not only is that happening, but also look at the lack of female representation.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: It just mind-boggling, it's terrifying.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that would be a very extreme example of not having women at the table, wouldn't you say?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: I totally agree.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: I suppose what it does do is it also brings issues that affect women to the table.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's I suppose the point.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Look, I think that um women are the often um the cares of the world.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean that men are not, but men, we need to make sure men are also.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, women have been the custodians of the next generation forever.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And we've often taken a caring role.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now that's become more professionalised.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: So before women, maybe in the villages of ancient man or ancient humankind, I should say, not ancient man, but ancient humankind, now we've got that being professionalised.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the workplace um has professionalised what women have always done.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so that means that uh the caring professions are being peopled by women.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we need to make sure they're also peopled by men.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: When we talk about, oh, we need to see more women on boards, well, we also need to see more male nurses.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I agree with you.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's it's got to be balanced across the board.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing I wanted to ask you, which I was really interested in, is how hard is it, how hard is it to see and survive some of the personal political slurs, not just at you, but even watching Josh and colleagues that you work with being sort of, I suppose, maligned or, you know, some of it gets pretty vicious, and we know even graffiti, you know, half the billboards being graffitied, etc.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that is what is different about politics.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can have a conflict in a medical, you know, in a research department or in a medical board.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's unlikely to get to that sort of very public, uh, you know, vicious and somewhat distressing stage.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: How have you found that too, Traverse?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something that, you know, and what's your perspective on that?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'd say there's a difference between normal parliamentary term and what is the craziness of an election campaign.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and at the election campaign um period, uh there just seems to be the level of how low some people will go is really quite awful.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, as you say, personal and politicized slurs um is terrible.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I've had you know people accuse me of things which are completely untrue.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so you just have to stand up and say that's not true, and hopefully the media will you know be appropriate and respond to that.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: But at the last election campaign, uh Mark Dreyfus, the Shadow Attorney General, when I was a candidate, accused me that I of being of having an honorary appointment at the Murdoch Tourists Research Institute, which is a not-for-profit, and that I was in breach of, would be in breach of section 44, and if that it was found to be true and I was elected, that he would contest my election in the High Court.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this was all before in the hour before my candidate's debate on the ABC, which happened to be or the third leader's debate.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: So the timing was particular, and it was all completely untrue.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: I did not have an honorary appointment, and I had to provide evidence that I did not have an appointment.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: But even if I had had that appointment, it was an honorary appointment, meaning it they were accusing me of having an unpaid appointment at a not-for-profit.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Not a profit of the crack.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it was wrong on all levels.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: It was wrong to be accused of something I didn't do.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: It was wrong to be accused of having an unpaid position, it was wrong to be accused of working for a non-profit, not for profit.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: There was no way that was in 1944.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: But it put me under huge stress going into the um candidates debate.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't prepare for my debate.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'd come off pre poll.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: There was a lot on the line leading into that election, and the same thing is happening again.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you've just got to go high when they go low, and you cannot be put off your game.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: But that's just dirt wrecking.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: And It's just it's it's unedifying and uh it's a desperate, it's a desperate opposition that does that.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, I suppose historically that's happened in politics, and I suppose when you jump in the, yeah, unfortunately when you jump in the sea, this is what happens a little bit, and you prepare to some degree, but what you're saying is when it starts to besmirch certain um core parts of your integrity, that's when you have to defend yourself, that's when you go, well, this is a step too far.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think, do you think there should be some sort of legal or otherwise consequences for, as you know, there's obviously been challenges to that in the courts on many fronts, but do you think there should be some consequences, just like they're saying, you know, that if people make up stuff about celebrities, which is another thing altogether, but it's not dissimilar, that there should be more severe consequences to deter that it should stay clean and focused on the issues and not be personal attacks.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: And will that ever change, do you think?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean it's hard to navigate, you know, we don't want to uh encroach on free speech, so it's hard to navigate how you might do that.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I suppose at the end of the day, um you ask the question, does it personally affect me?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose the view for me is it doesn't hurt unless it's true.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: So none of that criticism hurts me, it's just untrue and distracting.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I suppose that's just what I call mud spleen of the election process.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and people don't like in the general community, but what they're trying to create is where there's smoke, there's fire.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can create a narrative out of nothing, then that can bring your name down.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, you do worry about where people make things up or have associations that will be destructive to your reputation.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I just say to myself, well, each and every day I get out of bed and go to work with the first thing in my mind is to serve the people, you know, who put me in that place, which is the people of Higgins, and do that with a clear conscience that everything I do has integrity.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that's all you can do.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: That can that can be the only armour that you have, which is I know what I've done.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know that I have integrity in the decisions I make, because when this is all over, and hopefully it's not next weekend, but if it is, I'll go home to my family and I need to look them in the eye and say, I know what I did, and I did the right thing for you, for your future generation and for the future of this country.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And on that note, how are your family coping and and how does your husband and your four kids uh, you know, I mean, it is a lot of pressure on the family to some degree because you're so in the limelight, you're on the news, you're in the media, you're have you what sort of feedback and are they a great support?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: And how are they coping?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: My kids are my greatest joy, uh, both for me and for Malcolm, actually.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I'm so proud of them.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: They are uh they know how hard I work, they're proud of what I do, they're proud of the decisions I've made.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they turn up on pre-poll with lunches and dinners and afternoon teas, they come and help me with handy how to vote cards.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, their friends are incredibly supportive, and you know, they know that I'm trying to fight the good fight.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: So um I I gave them a story once um when I was first being elected.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'd been at this pathways to politics for women, and um this person said to me, uh so so this politician said to me, Oh, I hear that you've been, you know, saying some things um that you've got to be careful about at this pathways to politics.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I trapped down the source and I said to them, uh, you know, is there something I'm doing wrong?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, Well, you know how you got pre-selected for Quran.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: I said, Yes.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, Um, well, um, you were you're about to say something.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Well, did I say it?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, No, you didn't say it.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: I was just worried that you would.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so this woman had spread a rumour about me to a number of other politicians who came back to tell me to be careful what I said, when it wasn't I had said anything, they were just worried I'd say something.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it made me realize that people can make Chinese whispers out of nothing, literally.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And this whole where there's smoke, there's fire is is can be unfair.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I think if you carry yourself in a certain way, then people, if they're going to make a judgment about that, they say, look, that's out of character.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't sound like the person that we know we've seen on the ground.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we'll give her a second chance, and maybe she didn't do that.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because always people are looking, you know, to ruin your integrity and to undermine your reputation by you know the way that you carry yourself and the way that you approach things, that um that integrity, you know, can stay intact as much as possible.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: When something like that happens, clearly your family and your husband and your children, you know, will see some of the mud slinging.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do you how does that affect your relationship, for example, with Malcolm or with the kids, in terms of do you need to sit down and say, like, you're probably going to see this thing in the paper tomorrow.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's a load of rubbish, just you know that I'm fighting a good fight, or what how how do you deal with that?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you just separate it?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's a bit harder, you know, like if you've got stuff going on at work, normally you just deal with it.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, look, I've actually always engaged my children with stuff going on at work.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because um, you know, I've applied for jobs that I didn't get, for instance, or I failed to get research grants that I was passionate about.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and I've always involved them in that because I I actually think life's a journey that doesn't always give you exactly what you want all the time.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it happens to all of us.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so I share with my family when I'm struggling with things, and we've got a very loving and engaging relationship with all of them, and and they they actually like provide personal support for me, and they've always been like that from when they were very, very little.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we have round tables in the family and we talk about things and we share how we're feeling and the struggles that we have.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and they're now all young adults, so they've all women uh doing their own thing, but they're quite independent themselves and they're not particularly politicized.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: They they kind of watch politics, but they don't get too involved in it.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: They're you know, busy two of them are doing medicine, uh, one's overseas at the moment doing gapy, and one's just got engaged.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: So they're busy.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: My daughter just got engaged too.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: Congratulations.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's very exciting, isn't it?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you know, they they don't worry too much about it because they they're literally very proud of what I did.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I I don't sort of say, oh, this is gonna be the newspaper tomorrow because half the time they won't read it anyway.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I only once one of my youngest sons was at school, and this teacher, one of his teachers, started to post on me on Facebook.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I actually spoke to the principal and just said, Look, I mean, you know, she's free to say whatever she wants, but you know, if you could counsel my son about how to deal with this, because I'm obviously a bit biased.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really think what she's saying is right.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I don't, you know, I don't want to get involved and make him feel uncomfortable.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: So um he spoke to my son about it.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, the the teacher retired and resigned, I think, a month or two later.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: So there might have been some other issues going on.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: But what was interesting is that um spoke to my son and said, um, you know, there's some things that this teacher is saying that's untrue about your mum.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: How do you feel about that?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: And my son said, I'm I know my mother has a golden heart, so I'm pretty much sure I can trust that she was trying to do the right thing.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that sums it up, doesn't it?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: It shows that at the end of the day, they know that you're doing the best that you can do and you're fighting the good fight.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't, I think the other thing that's very important, particularly when you have a parent like you who is exceptional on many fronts.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I actually grew up with an exceptional mother myself.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: She was a magistrate, one of the first barristers, female barristers.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you grew up with these exceptional parental roles, and I think it's really important for them to see when things, when you are flawed or when you are struggling, as you mentioned, and that you're very authentic with your kids and with your with your husband because it's actually healthy, isn't it?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then your kids know that that's part of the journey.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I suppose the way you don't think my kids do think I'm exceptional.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I walk in the door and I'm mum, that's it.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I still do the washing up and I still do the cooking, and I, you know, I I'm mum, and you know, they do they know I do things over there, but I'm first and foremost their mother.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's my greatest story, and that is the thing that I will, you know, always hold close to my heart.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's my greatest story is to be mother.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: I I can see that and hear that, and and I concur.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I know Katie, you've been quite an advocate and certainly a strong uh you send out a strong message about climate change.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to me a little bit about that and what your policy and and and certainly what your position is on that, because that is going to be a very big part of the election.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Look, from day one, Deb, um I've been very clear that Higgins wants more action on climate.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I said it in my first speech, it's not just an environmental imperative, it's an economic one.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I've written opinion pieces, I've joined Parliamentary Friends of Climate Action, I've um lobbied and advocated to the Energy Minister and the Prime Minister that we need to do it through technology, through commercialisable, scalable technology.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, that is the mantra of the government.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I said to the Prime Minister very early on, it should no longer be a matter of if, but how and when, because that's what Australia wants and needs.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where we're at now.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: The 2050 target and plan is a pivotal change in the government's position.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, some people would say more needs to be done.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm one of those people.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: I want more and I want it faster.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: But certainly the change in position means we now have a bipartisan approach to acting on climate to get emissions down.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: And that means not just energy, but also making sure that transportation, agriculture, recycling are all low emissions, and that we have solutions such as hydrogen to make sure that we can get off fossil fuels and we can ship our sunshine and our wind.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: And recent legislation to activate an offshore wind industry, the big batteries that we're building or have built in Geelong, for instance, the ultra-low-cost solar that we're investing in, green cement, aluminium and steel, uh carbon capture and storage, and these are commercialisable, scalable solutions that are being invested in heavily by our government.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been working at the detail of how to move faster.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you're confident that because one of the big issues obviously is the you know, the Greens and the Labor Party are all obviously implying and insinuating that that the Libs don't have a strong climate policy that it's sort of tokenistic, that's their sort of perspective, where evidently there is a strong, as you and Josh have indicated.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: How do you change that perspective?
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: On, I mean, how do you, other than I suppose what you've just outlined, it is a pretty challenging uh well it's interesting when you speak to climate activists, they they don't get past the word target.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I've always said from the very get-go when I've done interviews, not about targets, it's about plans.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's plans and targets.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: So the plan is now there and emerging, and it's a tangible plan that will deliver results.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: And Australia is getting its emissions down faster than New Zealand or Canada.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're doing that, but we need to do more.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And there is, with technology, there's an acceleration that occurs once you get to a key pivotal spot or a point in time.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, for instance, you know, when mobile phones came out, they were a size of bricks and they were very expensive, and now they've transformed our life.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we've had the iPhone moment in energy yet, but we're getting there.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: And electric vehicles is an iPhone moment in transportation, but why aren't people using them?
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: They're too expensive and they're worried about range anxieties, so not being able to charge between places.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: So we're fixing the EV charging, and I'd like to bring low-cost um you know, EVs to Australia, so that'll take some negotiation.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: But the the revolution in EVs is happening overseas, and some work from the government, um some simple policy levers, I think, can change EV access here.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of things that we can and should do.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Just finally, just what's your hope for the future and your main concerns that you see going into this election, but also in the greater, you know, looking ahead.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: And also uh what will you do if this does not proceed as planned?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you could talk to me a bit about that.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: I know that's a few things, but I think I think it's a really pivotal time.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think what I'm feeling is that people are fatigued.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's just been crisis after crisis after crisis, and people are tired of this uncertainty, and you know, they just want to get on with their lives and they want politics to get out of their head, um, and they want politics to stop telling them, they want government to stop telling them what to do.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, COVID's kind of triggering people a lot, and so they don't want to think about COVID anymore, certainly don't want to think about lockdowns, and now they want this election behind them.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that what we're struggling to do as leaders is to really acknowledge that the country is going through a post-traumatic stress period.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that, you know, Elizabeth Cooper-Ross, there's this whole grief process, and grief has five stages, and you go through it at different speeds in different directions.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, it's it's you know it starts with denial and then anger and then projection and then depression and then acceptance.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: And some people get stuck at one of those points, and some people go back and forwards.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you imagine there's 27, 26 million people going through those different processes, some getting stuck, some jumping over, and some coming back.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's at different stages.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: But then you take that and you think it's not just Australia that's going through post-traumatic stress from COVID, it's the whole world.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the whole world has struggled through these last couple of years.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I used to say this to mums, um, I used to work out, you know, look after the liver transplant program.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd say to mums who are looking after their child who's going through a liver transplant, which can take a year or two to recover from, and they'd leave their other children with their fathers down in Tasmania or in the country, and they'd be in the children's hospital for two years.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd say to them, now that your daughter or your son is getting better and back off their feet, you look after yourself because this is when it's going to hit you.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: When you're in recovery, that's when you'll fall to pieces.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we've all been looking after those who have been struggling, and now those people who are looking after those people who have been struggling will be falling to pieces.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's that knock-on effect.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's not just the nation, I think the whole globe is going through post-traumatic stress, like they did after the war.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: And they want to feel excited and positive and hopeful, but they're still struggling with the process, and they don't want to be told it's all okay because they're not sure that it is.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: They actually want to have that understanding that it's not okay at the moment, and it's okay for it not to be okay.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really good, incredibly accurate overview of the universality of the experience.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: So every family, every household, right around the world.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, we we we I I think it'll be really interesting to look at the arts to see what comes out of movies and literature and plays and art.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it'll it'll it'll be expressed.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you see the big events that happen during the war, you know, the world, whether it was the Great Depression or the World Wars, and we're just emerging from that.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll see.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: I believe, because I believe in humans, I believe there'll be this great flourishing of hope and opportunity.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: But at the moment, we're not sure if it's quite over yet.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think leading into Christmas, we were so excited.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: We all wanted to have a summer holiday.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Australians love our summer holidays.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: We want to get to the beach and enjoy ourselves and be with our family and be with our friends, and that was whipped from us.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the Omicron did that to us.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I think we all want a summer holiday.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: We missed out on that.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people, that's why, you know, it doesn't matter what age.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, even the 20-year-olds are like, now they're having their gap year, you know, things like that.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like my son, your son.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, or your child.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, though, I think, where does that, in terms of from an election perspective, from a political perspective, what are we looking at from our politicians then in terms of, you know, is it a sense of comfort, security, a sense of reassurance?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: And where does that place the Liberals or yourself in terms of that trajectory?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I suppose in a week we'll find what the community believes.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I get a lot of people saying we don't understand the anger towards Scott Morrison.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: He's done a great job navigating us through extraordinary circumstances.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we'll see.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: It may well be the Christ, and we um see us as a government shifting to a different gear, which is a gear of um moving to that hope and opportunity as we repair and move on.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we'll see.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see if that's what the Australian people want.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: I do believe in the Australian people.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: I do know one of the strongest characteristics of being an Australian, I think, is the ability to see bullshit at a thousand paces.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that I do, I think that is that is our um that is one of our beautiful traits for sure.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so so for you, if it doesn't proceed as planned, will you stay in politics?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: Will you continue on the trail, or do you think you'd reconfigure?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think um, I think I've loved this job.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's a huge honour and a great responsibility to serve 100,000 people in this way, um, and through their darkest hours.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I feel incredibly proud of them asking for me to help them and then to be able to deliver that help.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: I feel very proud actually of what our government's done.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: I know as a public health researcher, the questions or the decisions that we face and the decisions we made, I know them intimately and I got very involved.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the Prime Minister's been generous enough to say that my advice assisted him in those decisions.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I I know how frightening it was to face these decisions and then for him to make them over and over and over and over and over again and basically get them mostly right.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, not all of them, but mostly right for the benefit of the greater good of the country.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I'm now quite politicized.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, I'm maybe it's a different role I take on because the people, if you can say, nope, it's time for somebody else, and that is, you know, that's the toughness of politics.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: I do hope they return me because I've I feel like I've worked out how the system works now, and just imagine what I've managed to achieve in one term.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I can do that even better the second term.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd like a chance to to build on what I've delivered and to be able to care for my community and and to help lead the country.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I'd like to do.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Katie, it sounds like you're definitely you've certainly delivered on many fronts, but also it does sound like you're prepared to listen, to adapt, to change.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, we have come through quite a somewhat uh almost apocalyptic time, a dystopian time, and the fact that everything is judged in this abnormal lens.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Let's hope you you seem to be putting forth a lot of optimism and hope.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think to be honest, that's what we all need right now.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: But as you say, the next week will be revel revelatory.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_00: We'll we'll all see what what uh what lies ahead.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I wish you um the best of luck, and I really thank you for your time and coming on the What I've Learned podcast to share with our listeners your truths, your visions, and lessons learned.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, dear.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for your time.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: Pleasure.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_00: Love Jeff.