Latest / Only Fee-Only / #128 - From 250 Clients to a Purpose-Built Practice with Tommy Blackburn and John Mason

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#128 - From 250 Clients to a Purpose-Built Practice with Tommy Blackburn and John Mason · Only Fee-Only

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: How's it going?
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Everyone, what's up?
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: This is the only fee only podcast and we appreciate you being here and for all of our longtime listeners, thanks for joining us again.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: In this episode we were talking to Tommy Blackburn and John Mason from Mason and Associates.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: They specialize in working with federal employees and this was a fantastic conversation.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, these guys really compliment each other when it comes to the way that they work, deferring to the other person, even in this conversation, when they feel like they're a better fit for the question, and you can just tell what makes these guys incredible at what they do.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: So enjoy this episode.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: It's a great one.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: This is Tommy Blackburn and John Mason on the Only Fee Only podcast.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: How's it going everyone?
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of the Only Fee Only podcast.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: I'm Peter Travelo.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: I'm here with my co-host, brock Buckles, and today very excited to have John Mason and Tommy Blackburn on from Mason and Associates.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Really excited to have them on and share their story.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: So, guys, welcome to the show.
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having us.
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:18
  Speaker 4: It's a pleasure to be here.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: Yes, you bet, so really excited to have all four of us on here.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: Yes, you bet so really excited to have all four of us on here.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: So whoever wants to take lead here for our listeners, you guys just want to give a little bit of a background of who you of them are the original founders of the firm that are in their 60s.
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: We've completed some internal succession planning.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: So we've done buy-sell agreements, we've updated operating agreements.
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: We're executing on that internal succession plan.
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: Mike and Ken my father and uncle started back with Equitable back in the late 80s and early 90s and we're there when you transition from insurance sales guy to a share sales guy to variable annuity sales guy to them.
• 2:15
  Speaker 3: When I graduated we became, like you know, like we want to continue getting fee business and we want to start down that business.
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: So Mason Associates has always provided federal employee financial planning.
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: But the way that we've compensated and the service that we've provided has just been really scaled up over the last three or four decades and so I think it's unique that both Tommy and I have experience on the actually selling life insurance products at one point variable annuity, index annuities and then have successfully made the transition to fee only.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: Tommy's background is a little bit different but since my time at Mason Associates.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: We went from 100% commission to 100% fee only over the last 14 years, which is kind of fun.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: So what about you, tommy?
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Where do you come to the story man?
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: So John and I, I think, take it all the way back to Virginia Tech, where we went.
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: That's where we studied and we met up in the senior capstone class and we did our senior project together and the project was create a, create a firm, which is kind of where.
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: I came full circle.
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: Now we run a firm together, so the senior project actually panned out.
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: We went our separate ways.
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: This was back in.
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: I was after the financial crisis, so 2010 was when we graduated and things still really weren't that great.
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: So I actually stayed an extra year to get a master's, to become a CPA, because the knew accounting was still hiring.
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: So I figured I'll go become a CPA, do that work for a little while.
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: It'll never hurt me when I come back to financial planning to have that background.
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: Did that for one year, went to the firm I interned at, which was an RIA and they had been doing it since, like then, they were an early RIA firm, so worked there for seven years, got some really good experience and John had been recruiting me.
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: We joked the entire time so he finally convinced me after a long time.
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: To come and spend one of the is easily one of the best decisions ever made and it was really fun because, like you said, where we came was when I came into the picture.
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: It was kind of we're building to this fee, fee only thing, but we're far from it, right, like we're going to put the infrastructure in place but we're still with the broker dealer, we still have some commissions.
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: And so came in and I remember thinking this is probably going to be like a decade before we fully go fee only and we just ripped the bandaid off and very quickly just left the BD.
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: We had a tamp.
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: We've since changed that up, so we've made a lot of changes in a short bit of time.
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: But I guess that's where I kind of come into the picture and yes, it's been a blast.
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: And so what's been the North Star for going fee only.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: What first set you down that road?
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Did you read a Kitsis blog at one point?
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: How did that idea start?
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: And was it the young guys thinking it, or were it the old guys too?
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: I think, generally speaking, commissions aren't bad, right.
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, you help a client get an insurance policy that they need to support their family and I think everybody listening to this podcast knows if you just help people get a lot of 30 year term life insurance, that's not going to keep the lights on.
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: So the act of getting a commission to help somebody get the life insurance policy they need is not a bad thing.
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: But back in 2019, and don't quote me audience on the exact timeline of this stuff, but the DOL, you know best interest disclosure was coming out.
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: There were broker dealers out there saying that if you have a CFP and you're a dually registered or a hybrid firm, you can't use your CFP marks anymore.
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: There's so much momentum in the industry going towards.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: You are a nasty human being if you offer commission-based products.
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: And the bulk of what we were doing was already fee-only right.
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: It was assets under management.
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: It was already what we believe was in the client's best interest.
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: It was already the liquidity and the growth and the investment strategy they needed.
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: The commissionable products were like icing on the cake.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: It was like well, because we can, we will, we'll help you.
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: Replace Federal Employees Group Life.
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: Now we send them to a company like y'all's to help them do that.
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: So the North Star, I think, was we didn't want to fight the uphill battle.
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: There were certain economics, of course, and leaving the broker-dealer and being responsible for the entire infrastructure.
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: Which was really exciting to us Getting our own E&O policies, being able to update our website faster.
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: Do this podcast without feeling like you're going to get barbecued.
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: There was a lot of impetus for the change, but I think the final straw for Mike and Ken specifically Mike was everything DOL and best interest, disclosure and BDs saying you know, you've worked really hard to get your CFP and you can't use it anymore.
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: I don't know if any of that actually ever happened or materialized, but that was my memory, tommy, of like that was the final straw of us leaving.
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: Yes, as a firm.
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: I agree that.
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: I remember that was Mike's final.
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: You know the straw that broke the camel's back.
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: You and I were already doing a lot of research.
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: We were already, I think, joining XY, we had already made contact with the compliance attorney and it's, I guess part of what I'm thinking about is like in hindsight, everything seems very clear and not scary, but being in the.
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: BD and leaving the BD was terrifying before we did it Cause you just, you hear these horror stories.
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: So we were really being cautious and making sure we had everything lined up so we didn't, you know, step on a land mine as we tried to navigate this.
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: It actually ended up being very easy and made a lot of sense.
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: In hindsight it's clear we should have done it faster, but it was scary at the time and, John, I think for you and me, I think our North Star probably really was always fee only.
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: Just coming out of the financial planning program, Neither one of us ever felt like commissions are necessarily evil.
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's just a tool, like everything.
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: It depends on how you use it.
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: But I think, like the independence of fee only, I think that was always very important to us and the direction we were going to go.
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: We just you had a legacy infrastructure type firm that you had to navigate this.
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: I guess the other big thing Go ahead, John, I was going to go.
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: We just you had a legacy infrastructure type firm that you had to navigate this.
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: I guess the other big thing Go ahead, john, I was going to say.
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: One other big thing, tommy, that you brought up, you know, in my mind was every client agreement that we had for a decade or for however many years it was, was with another firm, right, like we were Mason and Associates but associated with a broker dealer and all of the client agreements are with the broker dealer and are all with that RIA.
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: Like, did we even have client relationships?
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: Like, legally, contractually, were they our clients?
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: And I think that was a big reason of going fee only Our own RIA was like we wanted it to be abundantly clear these are our relationships, these are the people that we're serving.
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: Sure, you know, one day there could be some like monetary benefit for that too, right, like if you were to have an internal succession or external sale.
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: I'm sure it's different, you know, being an independent fee only RIA than associated with a broker dealer.
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: So that's an ancillary benefit, but that the big driver was control and like actually having the relationships.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: So I mean you, that makes total sense.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: You growing up, did you know you wanted to get it?
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Obviously you got to watch your dad and your uncle right and there's something to that.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: He's like sometimes you're a little kid, you're like man.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: One day, when I grow up, I'm going to work with my dad and my uncle and it's going to be this.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: And then, obviously, now that that vision has come to fruition.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: But when you were, when you guys were going to college together, was that something that was in your mind?
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: Or when you guys were doing that project together, was it like, hey, maybe we'll start our own fee only firm?
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Or like, did you always know it was going to be the family business?
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Like, how did that look for you?
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: So.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: So for me, I actually started at Virginia Tech as civil engineering and that didn't go well for me.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: I do not have that brain, I have a different kind of brain and I quickly made a change to the business school and financial planning track and I like to say I grew up in the industry.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: Most of our family vacations were surrounded by, or an extension of, a business trip of some fashion, because it was cheaper to extend a business trip than it was to go on a separate vacation.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: So I knew about the industry.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: I bought my first dirt bike, investing in Growth Fund of America back in the 90s, so it was something that I was exposed to.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: My mom was in banking, now with us as well here at the firm.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: So big finance background for me growing up.
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: And once I pivoted to CFP track at Virginia Tech, it was never a question for me of where was I going to go.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: I kind of always we were doing projects.
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: It was like analyze this firm's website and I'm like looking at my dad and uncle's website, I'm like, oh, these guys need help.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: You know I can't get there soon enough, but they were doing a lot of good things.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: So tongue in cheek, but you know, it was always they.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: They needed my help for sure, and I needed their mentorship for sure.
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: So it was a good.
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: It was a good pair.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about that.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, what were the clientele like before going fee only you know how many made the transition over to the new model and fee schedule.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: Like what's that look like?
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: Look like in general.
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: Do you want to take that, tommy, or?
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: Well, you know more of that history than I do.
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: I think it's interesting.
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: It's an interesting story we have and, I think, lessons that people can learn from our experience going through it.
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: And part of what I'm thinking about is we had way more clients than we do today before we made that transition, and so we've been through some evolutions and some right sizing of things, and there was've been through some evolutions and some right sizing of things and there was some heartache in all of this.
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: It never necessarily was easy.
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: So, john, I'm happy to sprinkle in some observations there, but you've got a little bit more of the complete history.
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so we talked about this when we recorded with Michael Kitsis on the Financial Advisor Success Podcast and, like a lot of people, we've learned from other smart people in the industry.
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: And when I started with Mike and Ken, remember we've had to overcome some of the AXA equitable sales training from the 90s.
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: For us, the concept of a minimum or a limitation on the number of families you can serve was never a thought process, probably until 2018, 19.
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: I mean, we were doing radio show and marketing and public seminars and we were bringing on so many clients and burning the candle at both ends because that's what we were always trained to do, right?
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: So then we start realizing, like this is not a sustainable path.
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: And then you start realizing that you have some federal employees who have a million or 2 million or more invested with you, and then you have some that have 50,000 and and the time commitment associated with serving all of these different kinds of families was huge.
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: I think at one point I was serving 250 or more families just me and you reach a point where that's not sustainable and you reach a point where you're providing less than quality service when you're trying to do that.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: So when we left the broker-dealer, whatever term you want to use graduations or terminations or having to end client relationships.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: We did take that opportunity to pick qualitative and quantitative the best families that we wanted to continue serving, that we could commit to for the long haul, and we could see the writing on the wall that's like John cannot serve 300 families, like we need to get down to 100.
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: And it took some time to get to 100.
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: And it may take some time to get lower than 100.
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: You know if that's ultimately a goal for us, but leaving the BD Peter was was an opportunity to begin shaping this more sustainable growth model, where I don't know if we consider ourself a lifestyle practice but we certainly don't want to be.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: You know, running 300 client meetings a year, times all five advisors.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: You got.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: I think you're what Michael Kitsis would refer to as a boutique, I think that's the right.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Boutique practice.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I love that.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: Would you mind nailing that?
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Just because I think we'd be remiss if we didn't touch on that for a little bit longer.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: Like so many, when you look in the Facebook message, like the Facebook group for X, y, p and right, I swear like 25% of the conversations are like I'm raising my fees or I've got to get rid of this, or I need to only work with certain clients or whatever.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: I need to only work with certain clients or whatever.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: Would you guys mind going through how you went about deciding how you wanted to do that and then, when that conversation actually happened and you had to have those conversations with people, how did you handle it for those advisors out there listening?
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a really hard time.
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: We tried to do the numbers and figure out okay, we have this many advisors, we have this much time in the year, so, like anybody, we tried to zero in on basically a minimum fee and I think in that time we had zeroed in on 700,000 of assets at 1% was about $7,000 a year in compensation.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: So we kind of like zeroed in there and said, okay, this is our desired level of comp.
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: Then, you know, emotions aside which we know this was an emotional thing you just started like laying out the number, like, okay, how many people are profitable, how many people are unprofitable?
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: Then the second layer was how many people are quote, unquote unprofitable but are great referral partners or you've lived with them through certain life events that it doesn't matter whether or not they're profitable.
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: That relationship's never ending, sure.
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: So you start with like that hard line in the sand of here's the revenue I need per family.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: Then you start adding in some of those other variables and history into the mix.
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: Then you start adding in some of those other variables and history into the mix and I think what's very important is that advisors have to allow themselves a certain number of exceptions or a certain number of families that don't necessarily hit the criteria that you're looking for, because none of us are.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: We got into this to help people and make money, and if you forget about the helping people part, that's going to take you down a nasty path, right?
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: So, um, there are still clients today that we serve.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: That aren't necessarily the most profitable relationships, and that's okay.
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: Um, and we, when we had the conversations and they were really hard, brock there was basically three groups of clients clients who are coming with us, clients who we were able to transition to another advisor, and then clients who basically became clients of the broker dealer, and there were many relationships that I had the conversation specifically where it went something along the lines of, like, brock, we've activated Social Security, we turned on Medicare, you've retired successfully, you're taking your required minimum distribution or what have you.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: I don't know if we ever used the term autopilot, but it was like your plan's in a really good place, your plan's in a really, really good place and essentially, we're going to take that opportunity to exit.
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: And you know, it was a more graceful message, but I felt like the people that we weren't able to continue serving they were in a good place to continue that relationship.
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: Post us, you know, and I think that was a big thing is having a firm that you can transition people to and also knowing in the bottom of your heart like you did really good work and these people are in a good place where they can continue the plan that that you've laid out, and still to this day.
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: I mean, we transitioned five years ago and the message kind of then was like if life throws you a curveball and nobody can help, call us and I guarantee you we get somewhere between five and 10 calls.
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: My spouse died.
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: Do you remember where that insurance policy was and was?
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: We still return the phone calls and we still help.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: So love that.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: I think that's also important too is just trying to remember to do the right thing.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: So I mean you've made the transition.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Um, you have tried and true systems and processes.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, what are some just general tips that you give other advisors?
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: You know, like if you're going to go into someone else's RIA and play CEO and you're like, hey, you got to be doing these few items, like what are they that have just worked time year and year and year for you guys?
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: What do you think, Tommy?
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: I think niche I mean for us niche has been tremendous and you know federal employees.
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: So I would say, identify a niche as fast as you can and own it.
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: It makes you more efficient, it gives you additional value and then that's going to go into your marketing.
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: So I guess, figure out what type of business you want.
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: You probably have to market at some point in your business and maybe you get to a point where you decide you're full and you don't want to market anymore and you want to do a lifestyle.
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: So that's up to you.
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: But you got to market, as we see, you got to get out there and do something.
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: And it's funny, the guys that are our mentors, mike and Ken, with that sales background, we definitely got high.
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: You know some strong doses of like.
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: You got to get out there.
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: You got to do something.
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: I don't care what it is, but you know we did radio podcasts, youtube speaking, you know just.
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: But you got to market right Client, you got to get your message out there and I think a niche helps a lot.
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: Another one is really being tax focused.
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: I think that's tremendously valuable and a big part of our focus as well.
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: That's my quick thoughts.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: I love it, man.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: No, I think those are really good, and Peter and I always talk about this.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: It's like you can have as much knowledge in your head as you want.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: You can have the best team that was ever put together in history, but if no one knows about you, it doesn't matter, because you're not going to be able to help a lot of people.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: So you got to have people to serve, right, and it's like I think a lot of advisors they get caught up in kind of the minutia of like, well, I'm going to have all my systems set up.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: It's like, look, be straight up here.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: Right, you need clients, you need revenue, or else you're not going to be able to help people very much longer.
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: So I love that you guys said niche, know who you're, know who you're talking to and get out there in front of them now with you guys together.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: I know obviously it was ken.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: And who is the?
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: The two names of the, mike and ken?
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, mike and ken.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, so mike and ken.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Right now we have john and tommy.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: It seems like you guys work really well together.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: As you guys work together like which one of you is good at what?
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: Because I know peter and I in the beginning we're trying to figure out which person sits in what seat, and that's not always the easiest thing to do, right, and sometimes you think you have good ideas.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: You're like wait, hold up, dude, I'm better at that part.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: You stay on your side of the fence.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: So which one of you likes to do what?
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: And how did you guys decide who was going to own what?
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's been still an evolution, as we both like to be involved in most things and I don't know that we've ever yet gotten to a place where we're really comfortable saying Tommy, just run with that, you know.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: Or John, you just run with that.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: Like we check in with each other on most things and we rule by committee, you know, there's nobody, that's just like making the one decision from the top.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: But I can certainly tell you that Tommy is more organized than I am.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: I can tell you that Tommy is a self starter.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: I can tell you that he's much, much more organized and diligent and can manage his calendar better.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: Like, if there are things that, like when our E&O policy renews, tommy makes sure that gets paid.
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: Like he is very good at managing all of that, whereas, like, I need a forcing mechanism.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: Like I'm good at my job, but if I don't have a reason to do it today, it's not happening.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: You know, and I enjoy the public speaking, you know side of this a little bit more.
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: I think we're both creative on the podcast and YouTube channel.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: I kind of take a little bit more of the lead on the marketing side and yeah, I think we team up really really well, but certainly we have a different personality.
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: I agree I enjoy marketing, but it's more of a natural strength for John, so he takes the lead on it and I think good things come from it.
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: John's also like a man of action, so I may be organized, but John is like if something was supposed to get done and maybe it's that forcing, like that pressure he's talking about but it's like let's go, let's get it done and we actually do.
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: Occasionally the roles flip.
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: I don't know if you guys see that, um, recently there was one thing where, um, I was like, hey, we got to do this and it's monumental, and we got to do it yesterday and john was like slow down, you're being me right now yeah, no, it does, man.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: It's funny too, because you see that, and I think the other thing that I've always liked is like, as you work together and you know we've worked together for over a close five years now, right, and it's like you start to see how each other work, and then I think you also pick up good habits from the other person.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: You're like I like that they do that.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: I wish I did that better, right.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: And so you're also like you start to think in a different way or you can kind of take yourself outside of your box, like in the beginning Peter would be talking about operations.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: I'm like man, listen, I'm just going to get a bunch of people on the phone.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: We're going to meet a bunch of new advisors, and he's like yeah, but then what do you do with them?
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: I'm like then you meet more right, he's like no man you got to like.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: So it's really important to like have that and have somebody that you know helps would say he likes the organization stuff, kind of like Tommy does and then sometimes he's thinking about something I'm like well, why don't we just do this man Like let's pull that across the finish line?
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: And so it really helps when, like, one of you has it at 90, but that one person might sit at 90 just trying to overanalyze it or do something, and then the other person is like all right, let me put it on my back, we'll.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: All right, let me put it on my back, we'll go the rest of the 10 here because you've got all the work done and I can see that we can move to the finish line so, yeah, and you've got to have the gas and the brake right, you've got to have the pessimist and the optimist.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: You got to have both.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: You know and and like, if we're doing a financial projection for 2025, I'm like we might be at a billion dollars next year and tommy's like, or we could be at 200 I okay, well, that's those are.
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: These are very different outcomes, you know.
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: And, like Tommy said, like I, we had a on the whiteboard this year.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: We put no changes in 2024.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and we had our offsite partner meeting last week and Ben Rakes, who's also a partner, was like John, how do you think that went?
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: I said we didn't make any changes this year, we only enhanced things.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it was like we didn't make any changes this year, we only enhanced things.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, and it was like we didn't make any changes, we just made enhancements.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: That doesn't count.
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, so I'm definitely very comfortable breaking things and tweaking things and continuing to add.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: Except, I'm having a little bit of trouble with AI.
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: Like I have a mental roadblock trying to get used to.
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: We've been using Firefly's AI and I've gotten around to that really well, but I've had a big mental roadblock trying to use some of the new software we're trying to get off the ground.
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: I don't know why, but that's one of the things where Tommy's got the gas pedal floored and I'm slamming on the brakes right now for some reason.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah Well, pedal floored and I'm slamming on the brakes right now for some reason.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah Well, I think it's easy to get used to stuff too.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: Pete showed me ChatGPT like three years ago and I think I came to him like a year ago and I was like dude, check out their software.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: He's like I know I showed it to you three years ago.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: I'm like oh yeah, I remember so, but it's just an evolution man, and that's the cool thing about it, and you grow together and it's cool to have a partner and a teammate that you can do it with and somebody to bounce ideas off of.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: Because I can tell you one thing, like the path to entrepreneurship, if you're alone, it can get really lonely.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: So if at least you have that person, if you're like man, I don't know about this and they're like it's going to be okay as long as you both are doing that I don't know about this thing on a daily basis then it keeps the energy pretty positive and flowing.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: So I love that.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: I cannot imagine owning an RIA without a partner.
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, I've always had a partner for 14 or 15 years now and just seeing my own weaknesses and what I get excited about, and having a community to share in your wins and losses and people to pick you up and keep you motivated and keep you going in the right direction, like I don't know.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: I know there's a lot of solo firms out there, but but personally, if you're thinking about making the transition to fee only or you're thinking about starting your own firm, I would say that trying to find somebody that you trust implicitly is a hard thing, that trying to find somebody that you trust implicitly is a hard thing.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: But finding somebody who you can partner with and you can all these things we're talking about all of that synergy both you know.
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: Sometimes both of you on the gas is great.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: Sometimes having somebody on the brake pedal is good too, but I would never want to go at this solo.
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: I agree there are, I understand, financial constraints, particularly if you're starting like maybe you can afford to have a partner.
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: But what I was thinking John was a study group.
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: We're in an XY study group that originally the thing that brought us all together was that we were all SEC registered.
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: So the problems we have are different than maybe other folks in the XY community.
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: But where I was going, john is I think most of the other folks in the XY community and, um, but where I was going, john is I think most of the other firms in our study group all have a partner.
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: It's usually at least at least two, right as I think.
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: As I was trying to think about when we were at dinner, it's like, oh yeah, most of them.
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: So I I'm just giving credence to what you're saying it seems like the other successful firms we affiliate or, you know, we network with they usually have a partner.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and as you think about some of these firms who are presented, you know, at various conferences and you know are top names in the industry, and you start looking at those folks and saying, ok, like their personalities between partners are very different too.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: Right, you know, and there's a reason that their firm is doing well, because they have these opposing views and they have a sounding board.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: And, yeah, it's, it's huge.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, my, my, my.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: My ongoing joke with Pete is if there were two Brock's, you'd meet a lot of new people and then nothing would ever get done.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Everybody would know what it was called and then no one would ever want to work with us.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: So it's good to have.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: It's good to have that.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: What has been you guys' predominant um growth mode?
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Like, what have you seen as far as growth?
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: What's been most effective?
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: Like, has it been short form video content, the radio stuff that you guys were talking about?
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Where have you seen the best results from that?
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: So, coming back to niche, I think is number one like a big thing.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: Like in our, in all of our marketing, we know who we're talking to.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: We're talking to federal employees and are near retirement, typically with a million or more of assets.
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: Like, we know who we're talking to and in our marketing Brock, we're very transparent with.
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: This is who we are, this is how we do business, this is what we charge by way of fees and I think by the time people land on our website, they've listened to the podcast or seen a video and they know who we are versus, like a lot of these financial planning podcasts or YouTube channels are a little bit abstract and they have this idea maybe that because I have a podcast, I should only provide quality information.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: I should never talk about me and who I am and what we do.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: And it's like, well, if we're recording a podcast talking about fees and the industry, why not also talk about how you charge?
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: It just seems to me to be related and interesting.
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: The prospect calls and the client calls.
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: We know people like that transparency.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: So I would say, get out of your own way a little bit and just let your true colors come through and let your business shine through, because ultimately, that's why you're doing the podcast.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: You know you're never going to be Dave Ramsey, right?
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: So the reason you do a podcast is to get clients.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: You should probably tell them how that works, but the podcast is great.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: Youtube has been the biggest surprise.
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: I think we're probably getting the most traction from YouTube, but there's so much correlation because we're posting the podcast on podcast only as well as youtubecom, right.
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: So the video video is big.
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: I think video may be the biggest impetus or driver of our growth right now is the YouTube stuff.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: That's awesome.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: So is that the main focus for marketing in 2025?
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: And what's the future of the business look like for you guys?
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: We've released two podcast episodes a month and the goal is to continue doing that into 2025.
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: And then at least one short form YouTube video per month, which is hard when you're recording podcasts.
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: So right now we've kind of taken the lazy way and our podcast also becomes our YouTube videos.
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: Right, they're like one in the same, but we know that those three to five maybe 10 minute long YouTube videos right, they're like one in the same, but we know that those three to five maybe 10 minute long YouTube videos there, those are really special and our most viewed content is going to be those type of shorter form videos.
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: So it's going to.
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: It's hard.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: We had a really good growth year.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: We want to continue stepping on the gas.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: So, going into 25, the main focus is on short form video content, because we know we've got the podcast down, we know we have a schedule and a cadence and we've got all of that down.
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: That's not hard anymore.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: Producing the shorter form YouTube videos is harder and will require dedicated time on the calendar, which we didn't give it this year.
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: I do want to say radio worked for us, and I guess my message there for anybody listening is I think all of these forms work.
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: It's just you got to get out there and you got to do something.
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: And I think I heard somebody say it all works but you can't do everything, so you kind of got to choose one.
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: We definitely think short form video is probably going to be the future, or at least like broadcast it more, although I think I was listening to one of your recent guests where he said it's good at like getting a lot of hits, but maybe the longer stuff was actually where they were seeing results from um.
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but so that's the direction we're gonna go, but also just want to encourage people to just do something, because it'll work.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: you just have to do it yeah, yeah, the big thing is don't stop like that.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: That was the biggest thing for us is like we started making content early on, like I was still I'm not gonna lie like some people got a call for me for sure.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Like I was still just calling people asking them if they'd hop on a computer with me to show them what we were trying to do.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: But at the same time we started creating short form video and it's like that slow burn of like, yeah, maybe week one, week two, you're not going to see anything.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: But what about if, like, week is like six months from now?
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Right, you've gotten three or four or five clients from doing that, and then all of a sudden that becomes a thing and people look at you like an expert.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: Next thing, you know you've built something really incredible off, something that you didn't even like doing in the beginning or you didn't think was going to be anything.
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: You're a hundred percent right, brock, and the podcast and the YouTube channel for us has evolved into a couple of things.
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: It's marketing, but it's also a client resource library, right?
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: So if we like, let's say, that one of you comes on our podcast and we talk about life insurance, great.
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: Now that's a resource episode that we get to send out to our clients who are going through whatever we talked about, right?
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: So we've got a Medicare episode, we've got a retirement episode, we've got a survivor benefit episode, and we're able to use the content that we've created to enhance the client relationship.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: So it's a marketing thing, it's an outbound marketing.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: It's a you know, take care of your clients.
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: Our clients listen, you know, and they they enjoy hearing us as the expert too, and every two weeks, when we drop an episode, that's like those are my guys, that's my team, you know they are the experts, they're putting this information out there and and that credibility, you know is is big, and it also makes referrals to your firm a lot easier when somebody is like, hey, you should go talk to Tommy and then they land on our website and they can hear Tommy on our podcast or on our YouTube and they're like okay, I do like this guy, I like how he sounds, I like the way he's communicating information.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: So I think it takes a warm lead to make some hot and really solidifies it.
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: And then I'll also say that to Tommy's point and your point, brock is how many people are going to listen to the Federal Employee Financial Planning Podcast, like there's going to?
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: be a couple thousand people that listen every month.
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: Right, we're probably never going to get a million hits, right, we're probably never going to have 20,000 downloads a month.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: But if we make five or 10 clients every quarter from our active two or $3,000 or two or 3000 listeners each month, that's a really good ratio and I think sometimes people can get so lost in the marketing because they want to, they want to go viral.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: It's like, well, you don't need to go viral, you just need to be like really good in your niche, and it's much better to get 10 new clients from a thousand listeners than zero new clients from a million listeners.
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, make.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Make quality content for the people you're trying to get in front of, right, you're not going to get a million clients, but nor would you want to get a million clients, right?
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: You already had to go through.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: You already had to go through selecting clients that were going to stay with you guys.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: So, no, I absolutely love that and love what you guys are doing.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: I think it's incredible.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: You guys have an awesome dynamic.
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: It's always fun to talk to both of you and kind of hear how your brains work differently.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: But, tommy, I'm going to ask you the last one If you could give a piece of advice for an advisor out there listening who is maybe sitting at a Charles Schwab answering phones or a Fidelity and they're like I think I might want to start an RIA.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: What are some of the things that you and John have learned?
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: Or you just tell them hey, right off the bat.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: Here's the things you need to be thinking about.
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: Well, I think if you've got the dream, you should do it Now.
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: You probably need to put some logistics into how you and that's maybe more of my personality coming through right, we'll start thinking about your runway, start thinking about your cash pile, because you're probably not going to launch.
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: Maybe you'll launch with a lot of clients I guess it depends on your situation.
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: So do some of that, but just go for it.
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: You're going to have the time of your life.
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: You're going to be successful when you have to be successful, when the pressure's on, you'd be amazed what you can do, and that's really what we launched.
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: Our YouTube channel for Market went down.
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: John and I had just made large equity purchases into the firm Like man.
• 38:07
  Speaker 4: We got to, we got to hit the growth button here, and so we just let's just start shooting YouTube videos and see what happens.
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: And now it is where it is.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: So, I think, do it.
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: Probably go for XY Planning Network, because that's something I think they do really well is helping people launch, just being a wealth of information, having some compliance tools, a network out there.
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: They are, I think, great in that space.
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: So do it.
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: Do your research, make sure you've got some cash reserves.
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: Think about your niche.
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: If you can, or if you just want to work with everybody that can fog a mirror, try to get your niche going as soon as you feel comfortable that you've got a base going.
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: I really think there's a really great strategy in having a niche.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Love it.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: And, john, I can see your wheels turning, so add one or two more in before you wrap up, yeah.
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: I.
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: You want to build it right from the beginning.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: You know, and and as I think about XYPN and I think about some of the challenges that we've been through at our firm.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: There's the tech stack that you get with XYPN is fine, but, like when you become a real firm, you need more than that.
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: You need the enhanced level, like you need Wealthbox 3, not Wealthbox 1.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: And I think one of our guys at our mastermind, or one of our friends, mentioned like build it like it's going to be three or four times bigger than what you think it's going to be.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: And we know cashflow is an issue.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: If you're getting ready to launch, we know that profitability is a concern.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: How many people you're going to, we know all that's a concern.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: If you, if you trust the process and you trust your marketing and you know that within three to five years, like this is going to work, I would encourage all of those people looking to break away that they put in place the systems early.
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: It sounds like what Peter did for y'all and your firm is know that the growth is going to happen.
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: Build it like it's going to be three to five times bigger than you think it's going to be, and the better you can design that picture.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: You don't want to go back and have to terminate client relationships.
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: You don't want to go back and rehaul a CRM.
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: You don't want to go back and have to terminate client relationships.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: You don't want to go back and rehaul a CRM.
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: You don't want to have to go back and redo all of this hard work from the beginning.
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: So there is a delicate balance, peter, from analysis, paralysis and trying to get everything perfect.
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: But then there's also, like the, you didn't dream big enough from the beginning and that was a mistake, and I think that's another reason to have a partner, hopefully, is finding that balance together of dreaming big but not getting like paralyzed by some of these decisions.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: So many goodies in there.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: Well, gentlemen, thank you so much for coming on today.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: For those who want to follow along and see your guys' growth, what's the best way to?
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we're Mason and Associates masonllcnet.
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: And, if you're curious, the Federal Employee Financial Planning Podcast releases every two weeks, so I think 26 episodes a year or so.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: Love it.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: John and Tommy, thank you so much.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: Thank you both.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: Thanks guys.