Latest / Beyond the Summit with Amir Golshani / "I Despise My Own Government" | Jeffrey Sachs’ Shocking Apology to Iran
Transcript
- Amir Golshani: Welcome back. Today's guest is Professor Jeffrey Sachs. He's a world renowned economist, university professor at Columbia and an advisor to three decades of global leaders. But today we aren't just talking about macroeconomics. Professor Sachs often speaks about Iran, not as a rogue state, but as an ancient civilization. Today I want to bridge that civilizational view with the reality of people living within it. those who are tired of sanctions, tired of isolation, and demanding a seat at the table of progress and asking for a normal life. Professor Sachs, it's a privilege to have you on Beyond the Summit. Jeffrey Sachs: Great to be with you. Thank you so much. Amir Golshani: Fantastic. You often argue that West fails to recognize Iran as a civilizational state. However, many Iranian people feel that this very civilization is being held hostage by a modern political structure they no longer recognize. How do we reconcile the grandeur of Persian history with the daily struggle of an Iranian who feels their own government is the primary obstacle to their future. Jeffrey Sachs: Iran is being held hostage, no doubt, it's being held hostage by the United States. This the irony. ⁓ Iran has faced since 1979 unending war, sanctions, isolation, attack, now full-scale by the United States. And this is the tragedy. Iran would be... just a, I'd say a normal, I would say distinguished member of the international system if it were not for the United States naming and ⁓ Iran as the center of all evil. And my interpretation of that is that did something the United States really doesn't like, which is that it escaped from the American empire in 1979. The problem is Iran is facing a major empire, the American empire. The American empire basically operates governments all over the world. It used to control Iran's government from 1953 to 1979. When Mosaddegh was overthrown by the CIA, The U.S. basically not only backed the Shah of Iran and SAVAK, ⁓ basically ran Iran for American purposes. Iran's oil, most importantly, essentially managed by several U.S. major oil companies. That was the original reason for the 1953 overthrow was Mosaddegh's idea that Iranian oil belonged to Iran rather than to Britain at the time. So when the revolution came 1979, this was intolerable for the United States. Adding to that was the taking of the hostages, which was a traumatic experience for Americans. They didn't know anything except that a wild group had ⁓ American hostages. They didn't hear what the reasons for that were, which by the way, with the United States ⁓ agreeing take the Shah into the U.S. for treatment against cancer, but with the idea ⁓ that ⁓ they were going to try to reinstall him or protect him from justice from inside Iran because the student demands were that he come back and face justice for 26 years of police state rule. Iran wanted apologies from, or the students wanted apologies from the United States for having overthrown the government in 1953. I can tell you one thing for sure, the US government never apologizes, ever, for anything. the US government never apologizes, ever, for anything. And so this was a show of bravado by Iranian young people that America could not tolerate. ⁓ This ⁓ a complete threat to ⁓ America's predominant in the world. ⁓ How dare anyone up to the United States? And my view is that since 1979, U.S. has basically been at war with Iran. It on economic sanctions from the beginning. It armed Saddam Hussein right from the beginning, from 1980 to invade Iran. It stood as ⁓ Saddam Hussein poison gas on Iranians. It's of that when ⁓ the ⁓ Iraq-Iran war ended 1988. The United States tightened the economic sanctions. When happened, though Iran had absolutely nothing to do with it, Iran was named as part of the Axis of Evil and targeted for war. know that in 2003, the idea was that three countries would be targeted. Iraq, Syria and Iran. They didn't get around to Syria and Iran because the war in Iraq turned out to be harder than the United States leaders thought because the US leaders don't know very much. They don't understand history, culture, geography or anything else. So the US got bogged down in Iraq, In 2011, the US did pick up the next phase with the attempted overthrow of Bashar al-Assad. That one also took 15 years bring about. That was another U.S.-Israel activity. the United ⁓ especially with Israel's ⁓ provocations, ⁓ now to finish the job in the last two years. ⁓ Amir Golshani: So Professor Sachs, I 100 % hear you. I appreciate that. So, but as an Iranian, my main focus here is talking about Iranian people at this point. We know what's going on. Yes. Jeffrey Sachs: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Right. But the point I'm making, Amir, is that people feel in Iran we're excluded, we face hardships, we face perfectly understandable. it's same, you know, could say, because there's an analogy with Venezuela also. Some people were with America's attack on Venezuela, some Venezuelans. because they had been under siege by the United States for many, years. And a way, it broke the siege when the United States invaded ⁓ Venezuela, the president, and so on. But my point is that I view it from the point of view of the American empire. has aimed to crush Iran. Now, Iran could surrender and become a vassal state of the United States. And is probably a way, that's one option forward. I appreciate that option because I don't believe that countries should be vassal states of the United States of America. But you can understand why people might say, boy, I'd rather be a vassal state of the United States than to have the hardships we face. But I'm trying to explain where the hardships come because, you know, the U.S. propaganda is, well, Iran is an evil regime it is crushing its citizens and it's terrible and corrupt ⁓ makes everybody poor. But U.S. propaganda is, well, Iran is an evil regime and it is crushing its citizens and it's terrible and corrupt ⁓ and makes everybody poor. The truth is the United States has aimed for Iran's poverty for decades. I'm an American. I despise my own government's behavior. The truth is the United States has aimed for Iran's poverty for decades. I'm an American. I despise my own government's behavior. So that's why I focus on that. What business is it of the United States to impoverish Iranians? I find it disgusting. And by the way, you know, I have said these things for years ⁓ people say, ⁓ no. Amir Golshani: Right. Jeffrey Sachs: You're anti-American and so forth. I'm not actually anti-American. I'm against the militarism of my country. But our Treasury Secretary, Besant, kind of a thug in my view, laid it explicitly in an interview that he gave in January 20th on television proudly. explaining that all those terrible hardships faced by Iran last year were what Besant called American statecraft. Can you imagine? The United States went out to impoverish Iran. I can't even believe it. It's so disgusting to my mind. I'm an economist. I'm after creating wealth, not destroying wealth. Besant is a thug. So he was given the order in March 2025 put maximal pressure Iran. And with maximal pressure, you destroy the currency. And sure enough, they did so. And then the Iranian people will say, yeah, we're suffering. It's terrible. We hate government. OK, I'm not going to play that game. Sorry. Yeah. Amir Golshani: Professor Sachs, for the sake of time saving, know, and a couple of key points that I really want your opinion on. So you mentioned 1953. Definitely there is a wound. It's history from 70 years ago. So revolution happened. So started by Islamic regime. The hostage-taking crisis started. It's back and forth. There is a famous saying I recently had Professor Ansari on the show. He clearly mentioned when there is hostility, Jeffrey Sachs: Yes. Amir Golshani: So it comes from a period of friendship, so that there used to be kind of, I close allies, friends, whatever, but turned into become adversary, states in hostility, you know, more. Right now, the question is that in 1979, silent majority watched the revolution happen in 2009, in 2022, and recently as this past January, We saw tens of thousands on the streets. If a civilization's strength is its people and people are clearly signaling that they're sick and tired of current system, does your philosophy of non-intervention risk silencing the very people who make up that civilization? a civilization's strength is its people people are clearly signaling that they're sick and tired of current system, Jeffrey Sachs: Bessent said that the purpose of the American pressure was to bring people out on the streets. Mossad was all over the streets of Iran. Trump himself fool that he is said, we sent the weapons to those people. This was an insurrection. Of course, there were people protesting. And of course, there was the CIA and Mossad shipping weapons and trying to overthrow the government. Let's not be naive about it. Besant, Besant said so. He told us. Trump said so. He told us. Netanyahu said so. He told us. In the meantime, in the meantime, just so you know. Amir Golshani: Let's- Jeffrey Sachs: I met twice with the Iranian president, Pezeshkian when he came to the United Nations. I met many, many times with Iranian diplomats. I met twice with the Iranian president, Pezeshkian when he came to the United Nations. I met many, many times with Iranian diplomats. They kept saying to me, How do we negotiate with these people? We want peace. What do we do? Do you know someone? Do know someone in the White House? How do we talk? it was ⁓ very ⁓ for me because I know the Americans don't want to negotiate. They want to overthrow this government. That's different. I know the Israelis don't want to negotiate. They want to bomb this government to its end. They want to kill as many leaders as they can. So this is a difficult situation. And I call for negotiation. And I resent the fact that there was a negotiation 11 years ago, and it reached an agreement. the UN Security Council unanimously backed the agreement, the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action. And Netanyahu and Trump ripped it up. Amir Golshani: Regarding Right. Jeffrey Sachs: So where is the bad faith? the United States and Israel. That's bad faith. Twice the United States and Israel have killed the negotiators. Killed them. Not just stopped the negotiation, killed them. They were the ones that ripped up the agreement. So you're asking me for a little bit of a counterfactual, but I'm giving it to you. If the United States behaved with the slightest manners at all and the slightest decency, Iran would be a normal society. There would be normal politics in Iran. There would be progressives. There would be conservatives. There would be many different factions as there are because Iran is a very lively society. But there would not be war. There would not be poverty. There would not be insurrection on the streets. Those are coming from the outside. It may not seem that way. Amir Golshani: Right. Jeffrey Sachs: Or, by the way, very legitimately, people inside Iran could say, I'm so sick of this, just surrender. But at least understand where this comes from. This comes from a deliberate 47-year effort by the United States to bring Iran back into the US empire. Amir Golshani: Thank you so much for that, but in an ideal world, 100%, no disagreement with you, but this is not an ideal world. So what I'm telling you is from the perspective of Iranian people. So you mentioned protests on the streets. So talking about Mossad and CIA, let's assume everything you mentioned is 100 % accurate and fact. Let's say 100%, Jeffrey Sachs: Far from it. Yeah, sure, sure. Amir Golshani: beyond, how about the bullets? Were the bullets Americans? No, the bullets that killed Iranian people. How about... Jeffrey Sachs: Apparently, Apparently, Apparently, yes, by the way. Apparently, yes, because if you understand how the CIA works and how Mossad works and what Trump said, they shipped the weapons. There was over the place, agent provocateurs. There were all over the place. People handed out the guns ⁓ Besant said, The whole idea of this operation was to bring people out on the streets. All I'm saying is, you can't imagine how nasty my government is and how it does this over and over again in Iraq, in Syria, in Lebanon, Libya, in Sudan. This is how it works. The CIA and Mossad do these things repeatedly. Amir Golshani: Okay, let's look at it from different angle. CIA and Mossad doesn't execute and hang Iranian people inside the country. They do not arrest and torture young students in Iran. They do not suppress and censor. They do not black out internet. They do not mismanage the whole country to have... Jeffrey Sachs: Yes. Amir Golshani: CIA and doesn't execute and hang Iranian people inside the country. They do not arrest and torture young students Iran. ⁓ They do not suppress and censor. They do not out internet. They do not mismanage the whole country Jeffrey Sachs: Well, blank out internet, by the way, is a response to a war launched by Israel and the United States. country's at war. Why is it at war? Not because it invaded anyone. Iran, by the way, has not invaded another country for 200, let me get this right, 235 years. I think the last Iranian expedition outside of Iran was to Basra in 1790 something. Iran is not an aggressive country. It never has been. It hasn't fought any wars with other countries for 200 plus years. It's a victim right now. It's a victim of the imperial rule of the United States and Israel. And yes. Amir Golshani: I cannot put enough emphasis on the difference between Iranian people and Islamic regime 100 % different. Iranian people are thinking different, living different, and the way of life there. I'm talking as an Iranian I cannot put enough emphasis on the difference between Iranian people and Islamic regime that is ruling there. 100 % different. Iranian people are thinking different, living different, and the way of life is there. I'm talking as an Iranian who has lived there. In 2009, when there was protests, I was on the street. I saw with my own eyes that people were killed. So this is not something by, you know, ⁓ Jeffrey Sachs: And yes. Yeah, Yeah, no, I know. I know. Amir Golshani: media propaganda. I have witnessed that. have lived there. I know what's going on there. So that's one thing. You mentioned JCPOA, you know, in 2015. of billions of dollars, you know, the release investments came to country, you know, so there were a relief of sanctions. But so the way of living for people, did it get better or you know, got more weapons, they got more money or they, the IRGC made more Jeffrey Sachs: Done! Amir Golshani: You mentioned JCPOA, hundreds of billions of dollars, you know, the release investments came to country, there were a relief of sanctions. But the way of for people, did it get better or proxies, got more weapons, they got more money or they, the IRGC made more missiles. missiles. So was there for better life of Iranian people or for Islamic regime to be more powerful, to have better hegemony in the region? Jeffrey Sachs: The United States never implemented the agreement, as we know. It never released Iran's blocked funds. That's why there are still probably more than 100 billion total that has been blocked. They were never released. Little bits were released. But ⁓ Trump already in 2018 stopped it, imposed maximum sanctions again. So it was never implemented. And I've. Amir Golshani: So planes of cash, so you say it's a lie. Jeffrey Sachs: No, I didn't say planes of cash. Planes of cash is not tens of billions of dollars. Trump, by the way, that, he's a fool, by the way. He about Obama sending planes of cash repeatedly. Whose money was that? Whose money was that? Was it America's money? No. It was Iran's money, which was confiscated by the United States, frozen. And it was a very small portion of it. So Trump makes it seem, because a vile liar and a showman, he makes it seem like idiot Obama gave money to these cruel, people. Obama did was return a small fraction of the money stolen by the United States from Iran. It's true. Yes. Yes. Right. Amir Golshani: Okay, very good, very good point. I love it. Okay, so Iranian money belongs to Iranian people. My main focus is Iranian people here. So did it make life of Iranian people better? No, no way, not at all. As a fact, I know that. Jeffrey Sachs: Look, OK, I'm a macroeconomist. I know that America has kept Iran under sanction for more than 40 years. The purpose of the United States foreign policy is to crush the Iranian economy. It's the purpose. It's the stated purpose. So is Iran poor? Why is Venezuela impoverished? Because the United States empire made it so. This is the role of the dollar. The dollar supremacy in the world means you can turn on and off the money to other countries. Do you know, until this day, it's unbelievable, where does the money, where does Iraq's oil earnings go? Not to Iraq, to the New York Fed, which then chooses whether to give it to Iraq or not. This is a sickness in this world. You know, the United States is telling Iraq who to have as prime minister right now. And Iraq doesn't want the American choice. So the New York Fed says, well, we're not sending you your oil revenue. OK, this is the American empire. I don't approve of the American empire. I think it creates lots of terrible hardships for the Iranian people who are sick of all of this drama. No doubt about it. America creates hardships all over the world. I'm sorry, I'm not an internal figure in Iran, I'm not. But I am a commentator, knowledgeable, very knowledgeable about how the US empire works. Amir Golshani: Okay, professors. Right, no I know. So let's do it. Jeffrey Sachs: And it's crushing the Iranian people, and I don't like that. Amir Golshani: I love it. Thank you. So I want to test a theory with you then. So many Iranians believe their interest in regime change is actually aligned with American interest for the first time in decades. If the U.S. shifted from regime change to people support, does that fit within the framework of civilization, in all respects? Jeffrey Sachs: Yes. I think that the United States the Iranian officials, and as I said, I ⁓ not the president, I ⁓ the foreign minister and know others, would like to negotiate peace, would like to negotiate an end of the sanctions. That's one of the main points on agenda. In fact, return our money and the has been on the agenda for 15 years. It's been on the agenda for 40 years, but it's been specifically negotiated for 15 years, that would be a pro-people response. It would ease the suffering of the Iranian people immediately. Also, stopping the bombing would ease the suffering of the Iranian people immediately. So I'm completely in favor of that. And every day I'm saying make a peace agreement. No more bombing. End the sanctions. Make peace. And I believe that the conditions for peace are rather straightforward, actually. So ⁓ one of the conditions for peace is that United States and Israel stop bombing Iran. I think Iran would stop retaliating to anybody else ⁓ and sanctions. I would like to see a restoration of the treaty that the United States ⁓ ripped in 2018, the JCPOA. I hope it's true. It has been true that Iran has not wanted a nuclear weapon and wanted to put itself under rigorous inspection by the International Atomic Energy Agency. I would like Amir Golshani: It is debatable those having 60 % enriched uranium for civil purposes is debatable. I believe you agree with that. having 60 % enriched uranium for civil purposes ⁓ is debatable. I you agree with that. Jeffrey Sachs: I think I agree with that because that would absolutely have to be reversed as part of an agreement. I think I agree with that because that would absolutely have to be reversed as part of an agreement. The 60 % followed the assassination of Soleimani and the attack on Natanz. And so the Iranians followed up with their escalation. But no, there's no reason in the world to have 60 % uranium and it should be diluted, it should be as a part of an agreement. There's no question about that. But I think that it could ⁓ be part of an agreement. what Iran, ⁓ believe, you know, I'm just, I have to say it, sorry, one more time. I don't believe countries should surrender to the United States. Why? the United States does not have Iran's interest at heart at all. I can tell you, probably know it, but I think in Canada people are better educated. But in the United States, no one even knows where Iran is, period. They put it on a map if they had to. So the States should not run Iran. What it should is peaceful relations. And yeah, yes. Amir Golshani: Professor Sachs, you mentioned peace. I believe, you know, every reasonable rational mind loves peace. No, yeah, 100%. So, but the Iranian people are terrified. There is a fear that deal between Washington and Tehran will simply freeze the status quo, guaranteeing the regime survival in exchange for oil flow. Is there a plausible end game that meets US interest without Jeffrey Sachs: I do too. Amir Golshani: the Iranian people are terrified. There is a fear that deal between Washington and Tehran will freeze the status quo, guaranteeing the regime survival in exchange for oil flow. Jeffrey Sachs: Yes. Amir Golshani: abandoning the Iranian people who ask for basic rights. Jeffrey Sachs: Look, I don't think that it is in America's position to guarantee the rights of the Iranian people. We should stay out of the internal affairs of Iran. We've never been interested for one moment in the rights of the American people. say we. I'm interested. My government couldn't care less. It put in a police state for 26 years. It overthrew a democracy. It has no interest at all in the rights of the Iranian people. That's a struggle for Iran. That's a decision for Iran. That's an internal matter. That's how I believe it has to be. Iran is a signatory. It's a member state of the UN. It's a signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Let's handle that not as part of US relations, but rather as part of the international system and Iran's own politics. But I can tell you, the United States cares less about the human rights of the Iranian people. If it cared, we wouldn't have a president of the United States saying we're going to destroy everything and reduce you to rubble. Believe me. OK, so maybe if the United States actually cared, would have expressed some sympathy for the schoolgirls that were killed in Nobody has expressed one moment of for the schoolgirls. So I know my country Amir Golshani: Yeah, right. Last question. Jeffrey Sachs: I know my government, they're not interested. Don't depend on them for that. Depend on them to stop bombing Iran, to stop stealing Iran's money, to stop putting on unilateral sanctions and crushing the Iranian economy. And that is an agreement that could end. I want Iran to not have nuclear weapons. I want Iran ⁓ to be a peaceful member of the world community. I want my country especially to be a peaceful member of the world community. Amir Golshani: How about majority of Iranian people who want regime change? How about them? People ignore Iranian people. Jeffrey Sachs: I don't ignore them, but it's not my business also. Amir Golshani: Right. Last question, Professor Sachs. If you were speaking directly to the students at Tehran University, those who saw their peers thrown from balconies in 1999 and are still fighting today, what does wisdom dictate they do when the world seemed to be making deals over their heads? Jeffrey Sachs: Yeah. Yes. What I would say is I apologize for the awful behavior of my country a period that dates back now for more than 70 years. It's been appalling how the United States has mistreated Iran, and I'm sorry for it. I apologize for the awful of my country over a period that dates back for more than 70 years. It's been appalling how the United States has mistreated Iran, and I'm sorry for it. Amir Golshani: Professor Sachs, thank you for bringing your perspective to Beyond the Summit. Thank you. Jeffrey Sachs: Great to be with you. Thank you.