Latest / Success Story with Scott Clary / Chris Dreyer - SEO Strategist | How Extreme Specialization Created an 8-Figure Growth Machine

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Chris Dreyer - SEO Strategist | How Extreme Specialization Created an 8-Figure Growth Machine · Success Story with Scott Clary

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  I had a business like I had six doors for renting I had the affiliate stuff and that's really when it started was that first year
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  Teach it honestly part of it was I was miserable Chris dryers the founder and CEO of rankings.io and elite SEO
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  Agency specializing in personal injury law firms under his leadership rankings.io has consistently ranked on the
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  Inker 5000 list for five years I went to college and you I wanted to be an entrepreneur and owned a business
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  ended up with a history education degree my first year I was a detention room teacher
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  I took this job because it was on the same track as teachers it's like what am I doing?
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  I'm gonna do this for 20 years absolutely not and I was trying to find a way out I moved to Tampa
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  and at the time since I was managing the real estate wasn't even aware of like property managers
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  I ended up selling them I was very fortunate it was like the real estate crisis starting his
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  journey from a high school detention supervisor to building a top SEO agency Chris has mastered the
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  art of niching down as a podcast host real estate investor an author of niching up his insights on
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  specialization are sought after by top entrepreneurs this episode is about focus mastery and building
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  dominance through specialization to go to a million to two you 100% gains but when you start
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  hitting 15 20 million you have to think about things differently you have the idea don't think
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  about planning to make it perfect but do it then improve don't accept defeat learn from your failures
• 1:22
  welcome to success story i'm your host scott clary the success story podcast is part of the
• 1:27
  have spot podcast network but has bought doesn't just have great podcast if you're an entrepreneur if
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  Chris first of all thank you for coming on i'm excited this is going to be fun um so you built
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  rankings dot IO into a powerhouse agency uh and when i say powerhouse you made the ink
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  five thousand list five years running super impressive that's not easy to do for anybody who
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  doesn't realize how much of an accomplishment that is but let's just open it up with the topic
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  that you love to speak about niching and i would i was about to say niching down i was about to
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  because that's what everybody says uh but you speak about niching up and this has sort of been your
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  business mantra this has been what's created so much success for you and and what you do now and
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  past things so what what is so important about niching up not down i think the biggest the biggest
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  thing first of all thank you for having me on the show this is super exciting happy to chat the
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  niching it niching niching it's another example or reframing focus
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  anything that i've done in my life where there was sports uh the collectible card game stuff
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  and we go down that rabble hole poker business has been focused niching my focus in legal is really
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  put me on a path of success you know it's so funny you i guess that's like the elephant in the room
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  we have to address so Canadians say niche and Americans say niche and i and their styles when
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  i go back and forth between the two but regardless it is it is the same concept regardless of
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  however you pronounce it um so i mean when you when you wrote you literally wrote the book on
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  niching up and i think that are niching up excuse me i'm gonna i'm gonna speak i'm gonna speak
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  we're good we're getting either one i'll roll with it when you wrote the book niching up um
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  first describe what niching up means versus niching down which i think is a term that people have
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  always used to try and sort of pinpoint a market they're going to go after or a customer subset
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  that they're going to they want to niche down into a hyper specific group of people they want to
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  you know sell to market to whatever what does niching up mean i think that the it's just
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  reframing it like an opportunity more of a half glass full versus you know an optimistic view
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  more as a pessimistic view and a lot of times when we focus and and we want to move upstream
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  it takes time to build that relationship equity you know in legal the Morgan and Morgan's the
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  sweet James these types of firms like if i was talking to multiple industries i would never
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  ladder up in a quick enough pace to talk to these individuals so it's basically an abundance mindset
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  for focus as opposed to thinking that you're gonna lose something everyone thinks about losing
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  market opportunity and shrinking tan but there's a lot of benefits to come from niching and i think
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  like if you look at sort of what you've built now talk to me about actually i don't even want to
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  know about what you're doing right now i want to know the first time that niching up actually served
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  you and then we'll talk about what is done for for rankings.io but when did this concept of
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  i need to be hyper specific and that's where the opportunity is when did that idea is sort of first
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  work out i think the roots it's from my dad from sports it's got to start there and i play you
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  know it's typical i played all sports i was good at baseball i was good at all these other sports but
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  i was really good at basketball and decided to take all the additional time to focus on basketball so
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  when people are at baseball practice like i'm in the gym working on basketball because i saw that
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  you know i heard that with Nadal and tennis like he was an all sports player and but really i think
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  from there it was and maybe it's just my genetics my chemistry and liking the focus and the
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  organization the ocb component kind of lends itself to that even you know the collectible card game
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  stuff i was a world-ranked player and in the game that i played they had multiple what's called
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  factions that you could be well only played one or two that was it i always just focused on those
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  and i knew the intricacies of playing those really effectively that's so interesting so even from
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  like a young age like with cards with with basketball yeah yeah i think it's in my DNA i find myself
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  now that i'm a father my kids three years old and he's like really into monster jams and
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  will like play monster jams and on the floor he's like organizing the cars into the different
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  like these are all the fish these are all the blue ones these are all the green ones and it's like
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  is this like a nature or nurture like him when i'm doing this am i organizing cars and he's
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  watching me or is he just getting this naturally i don't know but that's that's part of it yeah
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  were you um uh i think that forget i forget about niching for a second just in terms of entrepreneurial
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  were you always entrepreneurial like what what was your um uh your your your childhood uh
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  you're upbringing where your parents entrepreneurial like talk to me just to give a little bit of an
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  origin story where you came from because i've listened to a lot of podcasts that you've been on and
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  and you and you are like a wealth of business knowledge but even before we press
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  record there's a lot of interesting stories and sort of past lives that have sort of shaped you
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  to who you are today so walk me through where you came from yes so i grew up in a super small
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  town school district and in fact you know graduating my high school class i had 28 people in it
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  and but you know even before that my dad's a male carrier um he was a civil engineer but
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  this it was always on the road and traveling and decided to settle down and become a male carrier my
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  mom was a school cook and there were points in our life or in my life and upbringing where we
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  didn't have a ton of money like we didn't even have water like we had to go into town and had one
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  of those big tanks in the back of the truck for water you know well water scenario and my parents
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  worked so hard uh my uncle was a very successful CEO entrepreneur uh exits very wealthy we would
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  have vacations for him so i kind of saw what was possible and so that was always on the top of my
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  mind that there was there was there was this like you could do it like it was possible so that
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  that's really where stem from is at the time i didn't know like we were we were what i would
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  call middle class in the in the terminology it wouldn't say that we were like quote unquote poor
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  even with the water thing it was just based upon where we lived um but it created like some
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  some principles some habits of like work ethic and i would help my mom clean houses on the weekends
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  at uh she worked at a law office we clean clean the house um she used to do these like you know
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  on sundays like the way you call those where you go into town and they have all the groceries and stuff
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  the like the like the like the flea market yeah yeah yeah like little market she would hustle yeah
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  and farmers market stuff and so we were always doing something like that to to make extra money
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  and also on the side i saw like my uncle's success i would talk to him i was envious of that
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  not in like a negative way i love my uncle i'm so curious have you ever thought about
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  i always think about like nature versus nurture you just mentioned that and is entrepreneurship
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  is it something you're born with is something you can learn but even if you look at the example of
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  your parents and your uncle your uncle was entrepreneurial highly successful your parents also were
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  entrepreneurial did not have the same level of wealth what do you think and you've learned from
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  both of them very valuable lessons that served you but what do you think the difference was between
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  their mindset which i'm assuming then resulted in their success or or lack thereof comparatively
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  really a question i got to i got to preface this mom dad if you're listening um i love you guys uh
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  so i let me say my mom
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  was constantly trying to find her passion or her way that he that she could contribute
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  outside of being the absolute best mother and caring mother like everything was about her kids
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  everything every waking moment and i think that she didn't focus honestly like we're hustling
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  doing this thing clean in a house we were we were then selling you know stuff at the farmer's market
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  then we're doing this and she had all these different types of jobs but i think she didn't really
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  pursue it because of like being a mom first it was like first and foremost even to this day
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  i also just think that she the interest she never had an interest to learn like you know just the
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  you know business principles of charging more and repeat customers and all the things that come
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  into running a successful business the my dad my dad is one of the hardest workers have ever met
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  in my life i mean just i just when it comes to grit and work ethic i mean he's just he worked
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  i think every overtime hour they ever offered to him and hardly didn't take any days off
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  i think for him it was like a he was very risk risk um adverse avert yeah yeah adverse yeah he
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  you know very conservative in the stock market very didn't want to go out on his own would
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  would you know prefer the security of working for someone my dad's upbringing
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  i mean i lend itself to a lot of that because his his dad died when he was very young and his mom
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  didn't have a lot of money and this was in high school so he went right to work at a high school for
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  someone else and so he didn't have this like you know these these gap years and this time to
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  reflect he didn't know he didn't have the privilege unfortunately to to take time and to figure
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  out as is right into work and and and sometimes you get stuck and not stuck in a bad way but
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  it's what you know and and it's scary as hell to do shit that you do not know and if you've only
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  known the one thing which is work and safety and security in my dad he is a a leader of the family
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  father first just like my mom and it and like i'm not saying that business like business is like
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  everything outside of the family to me like i don't have we'll go that when i really have a hobby
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  so i'd say business is my hobby but he he was a leader of the family and and i would say like today
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  look he has a government you know pension or retirement uh my mom does too from from being the the
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  cook for those years and their houses paid off and and they live of a good life and it's also like well
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  what's enough and what is there's like why do you continue to strive they they go on vacations
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  they're very happy um i think i had different levels of ambition from a wealth perspective
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  uh but they're very secure they don't have like astronomical debt they're they're they're
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  comfortable and and they do have freedom still i think that i think that a lot of people who
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  listen to this show in particular could understand that pursuit of wealth does not mean that you
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  should sacrifice any of those things that your parents did so well and my parents are very similar
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  to yours by the way my parents are exceptionally similar my dad wrote for the government my mom
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  worked for universities and then she took time off and she had me and my brother then she went
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  back to work after um and they are not hurting by any means but they were not risk takers in an
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  entrepreneurial sense um and they were both like i did not come from a hard you know upbringing
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  like wonderful life upper middle class um very much loved and i'm so grateful for that and i think
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  that i i i think that that's a beautiful thing when when when you care about your family that's
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  what you should that's what you're put on this earth to do it's to care about your family to
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  care about the people that you bring into this world your kids and i think you because of that
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  you know that upbringing i'm pretty sure i know exactly what kind of father you are and you're a
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  great father and even though you're pursuing wealth and success you're not like doing it and
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  sacrificing all the other things in your life but i do see some people that are exceptionally
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  successful from a financial perspective that everything else is sacrificed and i don't i don't think
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  that's success at all i don't either and and and that is me it's like it's like i want to be a good
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  a good dad a good husband and and it's a work in progress right i'm a i'm a early dad you know
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  he's three years old and i'm trying to be the best husband and and we're we're all flawed and i'm
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  doing my best i will say that i think the values that they passed on to me and i i think it was the
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  both of the nature and nurture component it's interesting both myself and my sister are very
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  successful business owners and entrepreneurs like my sister it's wildly successful multiple
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  companies you know eight figure like five eight figure wealth and like we're both you know
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  neither of our parents were like that but i think i think the values contributed to i think the
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  values allowed you to be that successful in the right way i i fully believe that what what prompted
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  you if you didn't come from an entrepreneurial background what prompted you to be more entrepreneur
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  what was the the first thing that you tried to build well i went to college i knew i wanted to be
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  an entrepreneur and owner business but i didn't know what and i i went literally went to college i had
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  no idea what i wanted to do somehow ended up with a history education degree i have no idea i was
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  a big part here i didn't attend class i had great grades um but i was not a good student and i've
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  got some stories about the that if you want to go down that path dude yes okay okay well
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  let's just so a lot of history you learn that throughout your life you learn it in high school so
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  i knew that i could pursue that and and be really effective in not a ten class like we're talking
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  about the civil war we're talking about these different milestones it's like you know how much
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  did you pay attention back then and you know are you an effective writer so it was like the perfect
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  career path for me it's someone that wanted to chase girls and have fun and drink a little bit and
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  i will say this one thing almost got me in trouble in college i i had a this final history
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  education paper and i did not want to do it like i don't want to write this paper it was like a 30
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  page paper requirement so i hired someone to write it for me and this is pre-chat gbt and all
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  though whatever and she plagiarized she plagiarized and so i get called in to like the dean and
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  and they're like you plagiarize this and i'm like i have no idea i just thought i was quoting the
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  work you know like well like what am i going to say like yeah you didn't know i hired but write it
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  you know it's right the plagiarist right so thankfully uh um i was able they allowed me to
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  retake the class and i put in the work and wrote the paper and stuff but like that was one of the
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  moment or delegation almost did you tell them that you paid someone to write it absolutely not
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  i mean that had been the death meal right and and and thankfully i got that opportunity was lucky
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  to take the class but like i wasn't a good student you know quite frankly even in high school i was like
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  i was in all of the you know whatever you call those uh the top classes uh there's a name for it
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  like oh yeah um yeah i know i took all those classes all of that for English whatever
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  but i was still a b student and when i went to college like i was a b student like like it is
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  what it is like i wasn't shooting for the dean's list i was shooting to get this because
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  i i thought i was going to be a basketball coach and i thought the path was like you know high
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  school coach win a bunch of games go to college you know be a college coach i thought that was the
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  path because at the time that was really my focus was was basketball but you know that's that's
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  kind of the beginning of the journey for me to answer your question like when did that first
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  entrepreneurial thing happen i think my first year i was a detention room teacher i i took this job
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  because it was on the same track as teachers so if i was a two-year detention room teacher and
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  the third year i'm a teacher i'm a three-year teacher towards that that retirement
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  and i typed in how to make money online i found this affiliate marketing course
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  made my first like 20 bucks from it uh that gave me the itch but then somehow i got into
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  real estate and i convinced this guy to sell me this triplex uh you know for my salary barely
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  could get the loan for it and then he owned the next one door the one next door so i convinced him
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  to do it contract for deed so then i had six units and i had this internet marketing thing so like
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  i had a business like i had six doors for renting i had the affiliate stuff and that's really
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  when it started was that first year teaching and honestly part of it was i was miserable i was with
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  the the kids that not all bad kids some of them this is like i'm setting in this detention room it's
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  like it's almost like the the padded walls of white it's like what am i doing am i going to do this
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  for 20 years like absolutely not and i was trying to find a way out and that i mean so now it's
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  ironic because your first version of entrepreneurship is anything but uh niching down or up is
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  almost uh like buckshot like anything you can touch that's not the detention room this is what
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  you're this is what you're going after so uh when was the first version of entrepreneurship that
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  was successful for you like i mean you moved into affiliate marketing real estate uh six doors by
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  the way is very like that's that's impressive for the for the lack of experience in real estate and
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  for how old you were um some of these obviously didn't work out did they i mean uh failures teach us
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  more than uh wins some time so what did this first version of entrepreneurship teach you what did
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  you what did you sort of you know what did you say listen this is not for me because of x y and z
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  and how did this clarify your path into SEO into internet marketing into all the sort of stuff that
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  you do now so my first website was loser double gen.com it was that it was in it was niching
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  it was focused in the weight loss category and essentially i mean there's more to it but but
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  essentially weight loss and health right and it was wildly successful i look i built like 80 sites i
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  didn't i didn't like really believe that i thought i just got lucky i didn't know it was the
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  focus at the beginning and i i built all these other websites staining concrete osse berry i had a
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  portable generator site that took off in the Katrina era i had all these sites but really the one
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  that hit was the loser double chin i ring number one for double chin for like three to five years
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  massive amount of volume uh you know part of why i'm wearing this beard right now because i'm uh
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  you know i got the double chin but the it hit and i was making like
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  sixteen grand a month by my second year but how how how were you making like just like
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  having 80 sites like what made you think oh i want to spin up 80 sites and that's how i'm going to
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  make money i i thought that it would be as easy to get a win in these other niches but i didn't i
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  didn't realize i got like a very lucky on the double chin site for my first site and i should have
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  just focused and you were just you just spun it up and it was just articles and then ad revenue
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  ad sense i had some amazon products um but overall is ads at google ad sense and and it was a big
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  driver i had like let's let's say i had 80 sites i would say four of them produced 90 percent
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  of the revenue in the so that's a signal yeah yeah that actually have a funny story
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  on this without going too off track one of them was uh how to state concrete floors and i
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  ranked number one for stained concrete for a few years and i created this uh so my this fast
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  forward this article is out in the ether that i wrote and my president today steven willey
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  is getting ready to redo his basement he's gonna do the stain concrete floor and we'd work together
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  for two years and he's like following this instructional article and he gets down to the bottom
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  and it's me he sits like that's funny so it's still it's still on the internet in 2025
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  it's a lot harder to find now because i've taken a lot of that stuff off like the double chin and the
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  best at the best man duties and a pastry chef thing i tried to get rid of as much as that as i
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  can but or i could but yeah there are a few of those out there in the ether how did you get good at
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  as you're so you're OG like internet marketer what yeah okay so eighty sites double chin
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  lose the double chin what year is this this is yeah 2006 ish i was the teacher and doing this
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  on the side yeah that's so that's so old in internet yeah internet time it was so easy back then
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  it was so easy i wish i would have just pedal to the metal and did it more but you know live and learn
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  and you were and you were the business was spin up a website write an article put it on the
• 24:33
  website basic basic SEO not as it's not as difficult as it is now obviously and were you were
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  you writing articles for eighty websites i was writing articles for a few but i had an affiliate
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  team the Philippines so i would early on upwork used to be called Odess before they got acquired
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  and i had an Odess team of about eight people and so they were writing a content and back then
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  there was this site called easy and articles easy and articles was a very authoritative site and
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  if you got one link from easy and articles it would propel you up in the rankings there there was
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  other success factors but it was heavily weighted there and what's funny is they sent you whenever
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  you became an expert writer at easy and articles they shipped you a coffee mug coffee and like a
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  pin or something why had like 30 of those because i had like different pins so i used to like play
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  with it and hold them up in videos and stuff and like some of the old geez would recognize the easy
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  and articles too but that's kind of how i got started yeah and that was okay so that was that was
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  a signal that i mean you you uploaded you you set up all these sites three or four are killing
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  it the rest not so much okay that's that's a niche uh you shelved real estate and then you just
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  went all in on SEO i kept real estate for now i wish i still have those today because i
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  know yeah you know the appreciation and all that but i was managing those myself so like
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  chris that didn't know anything about renovation and and home maintenance would go over there
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  slinging a hammer around trying to fix stuff moan the grass collect in the money spring in the
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  tenants doing all the things right i was doing that while i was teaching and coaching and doing
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  the affiliate stuff so i was i was after it at the end of when did all yeah at the end of my
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  second year teaching i was making like 16 grand a month and i was gonna get paid the teacher salary
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  the whole summer i got a mentor in florida which i can tell you about how i knew this individual but
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  i moved to Tampa and at the time since i was managing the real estate myself and and didn't even
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  wasn't even aware of like property managers um i ended up selling them but i got it was the timing
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  of when i sold them i was very fortunate because right around there two thousand two thousand
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  eight was like the real estate crisis and i got a decent amount of money not like a huge amount
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  but maybe i netted 20 grand or something 30 grand but it kind of helped me with all of the these
• 27:19
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• 30:01
  before the software expires that is v-a-n-t-a dot com slash scott this mentor uh who who were they
• 30:10
  what impact did they have on your life and is this the mentor that sort of pushed you or was the
• 30:16
  inflection working with this person was an inflection point that eventually led to rankings.io
• 30:23
  i'm going to say major major contributor to it i was and you're you might you might go into details
• 30:33
  here but between high school and college i played this collectible car game uh called legend of
• 30:40
  five rings uh it was same it's very similar like magic the gathering in the pokemon right i know
• 30:46
  magic i never knew i never knew so this game had a very big following for a time and i was a top
• 30:53
  player they had these things called kota championships and i won four essentially state championships
• 30:58
  in a two-year period at the time knowing it ever done that i think a few years after i kind of
• 31:03
  got out of it people did but one of the other top players was an individual name Ryan Carter
• 31:10
  Ryan and i and all the top players just like when you really get into a game or something we
• 31:16
  we had a mastermind all the top players hung out talk cards went on these troops trips because
• 31:22
  you know there'd be a 200 300 person tournament but like you're up against these top 10 like they're
• 31:27
  going to be at the end like you know it you all know each other and Ryan was one of those players
• 31:32
  and we started just chit chat and about internet marketing he was really into it and he started it
• 31:39
  as a full-time job and so meet as well and we basically lived together we talked about digital
• 31:46
  marketing every single day uh it was a passion we were both trying to make money and hustling
• 31:52
  his life kind of pivoted and he went the Chris money maker route uh of poker and pursued it
• 31:59
  not as a hobby he is a through and through pro poker player that had a mindset coach a a tactical
• 32:07
  coach was very successful with that direction i continued with the digital marketing now i did
• 32:12
  have a brief sin and poker or made a decent chunk of money but that that's kind of the the direction
• 32:20
  that i went versus him between all the different things you've been successful i mean you're
• 32:26
  you're recounting a lot of wins so i mean i'm assuming you're leaving out some failures or maybe
• 32:31
  you've just been incredibly successful over your career but what was the through line between
• 32:37
  um and if you want to talk about failures be my guess but i'm not going to push you on those but
• 32:42
  what was the through line between being successful at affiliate marketing being you know
• 32:48
  quasi successful even at real estate and being successful at playing cards and being successful
• 32:54
  at playing poker is there a personality trait that served you well or practice or some idea
• 33:01
  that you find has sort of allowed you to be successful across all these it seems like different
• 33:07
  very different domains apps it's it's core values it is in in a i'll expand on this but like our core
• 33:13
  values that are company are excellence execution and grit and i am the epitome of a type a driver
• 33:21
  whenever i take these personality assessments and they're like have these ranges i'm always like
• 33:25
  falling off the page on the driver and execution um my orientation in terms of thinking about things
• 33:33
  is shorter term orientation like a years about as far as i can go so i have issues
• 33:38
  wandering and thinking about three and five and ten years so like a Jeff Bezos has a super long
• 33:44
  term orientation when like a look back window and you know this orientation of just thinking about
• 33:50
  the future i would say like an Elon Musk like these people are thinking about change in the world
• 33:55
  20 years from now 30 years from now me it is just straight have the idea get it so i'm not making one
• 34:04
  affiliate side i'm making 80 i'm not doing five articles on the website i'm doing a hundred or a
• 34:08
  thousand uh playing basketball i'm not i'm playing basketball every single night i had a key from
• 34:14
  the superintendent work only i had it that that that i could access the gym i went every single day i
• 34:19
  was before school when every single day um it's a obsession obsession to the point where i cannot
• 34:27
  play video games not because i don't enjoy them it's because i i take them to the 10th degree and
• 34:33
  i just i have to win i have to be number one and i remember i'll give you an example what it was
• 34:39
  like a point where i just had to quit playing video games is there's this final fantasy on PlayStation
• 34:44
  to there's this one level that you could play in and you can only access it at one point in the game
• 34:50
  and it gives you like these permanent boosts to your people what played that level for 40 hours to
• 34:56
  just max out all my guys before movie and it's like what what am i doing like so businesses become
• 35:02
  this this game it this this you know people joke about the simulation and whatever and you know
• 35:09
  RPGs when you think about role playing games it's like you get the guy you fight some monsters you
• 35:13
  level up you know you build bigger cities get bigger swords like that's what i'm doing a bit that's
• 35:19
  what i've that's what i've always done in business and in affiliate marketing and everything um
• 35:25
  it's just keep focus keep reputation and execution that execution
• 35:31
  and consistency is has been the number one driver when does when does obsession in business serve you
• 35:41
  and when does it hurt you it serves me because
• 35:48
  i want to be the best and i don't have any shame saying that uh the Timothy Timothy what's
• 35:54
  what's his last name uh i'm a child right came out and he goes i want to be one of the greats
• 36:00
  like that fired me up like please i love that type of stuff um some people didn't like it
• 36:06
  they thought he's brash i loved it i love people saying they want to be the best and having
• 36:11
  high standards and okay when does it serve me it serves me because i go all in like look i'm not
• 36:18
  if i take an IQ test look i'm real i'm not going to be like a 160 or whatever i'm not going to be
• 36:23
  also you know the bottom but i'm going to be like the average guy but the difference is
• 36:29
  every single day every year for the past 11 years i've read 50 to 100 business books i
• 36:34
  listen to business podcasts every single morning i talk to i'm in business masterminds like
• 36:40
  i'm just constantly because i can't be the best at everything but i can be very good at this thing
• 36:45
  so that's how it's served me is this this relentless focus and passion how it's hurt me
• 36:52
  is i have extreme difficulty shutting it off like tremendous difficulty sleeping my sleep is
• 37:00
  horrible i need a sleep coach i need the ordering thing it's i can't shut off my brain
• 37:06
  i also you know with the wife i have to be very purposeful intentional about being in the moment
• 37:13
  and listening to what she's saying because i'm also thinking about this deal i'm trying to close
• 37:17
  with this marketing initiative this employee um i have right now i am in an office i'm the only
• 37:25
  person in this office i'm paying a pretty high lease for this office i'm the only person here because
• 37:31
  i cannot work from home because if i'm if i get if i'm at home and i get off work i'm still at work
• 37:40
  it's i i used to have this house before my wife at this nice house uh in a foul in Illinois
• 37:48
  had a big master bedroom upstairs but my office was upstairs and after i got off work i had to go
• 37:54
  downstairs because that was when i was off work so that's that's that's the negative right the negative
• 38:00
  is health too it's like where you know in these health and relationship and spiritual
• 38:09
  it's like i had always and i'm getting way better i'm blocking my calendar you know working out
• 38:15
  i'm eating better but like that took a back seat too like i was putting all of my time into the
• 38:21
  business it's tough dude i think that sometimes like the dark parts of a personality a person's
• 38:31
  personality is what allows them to be successful dark in like the way you just described with obsession
• 38:39
  i mean i've heard this from mr beast who he went on uh Stephen Bartlett's
• 38:46
  diary of a CEO and his podcast and he said i wouldn't be successful if i cared about my mental health
• 38:54
  um i i believe that to be true sometimes with with me as well i think that i i also believe that
• 39:02
  most entrepreneurs are to a degree even a a small bit neurodivergent like i i think that that's
• 39:10
  reality i don't think that it's normal or rational um to put your life into something but
• 39:17
  if you're gonna try and build something it's almost required at least for a season the issue is when
• 39:21
  you can't shut it off and when everything else in your life deteriorates because of it that's when
• 39:26
  it becomes a problem not if you do it for five years and then you're successful and then you can
• 39:30
  know you know spend uh your life focusing on your health and your wellness and and ideally you do
• 39:36
  it simultaneously but i get that sometimes it's hard to balance everything but
• 39:42
  yeah okay put five years put ten years but then yeah have a have a partner you know
• 39:47
  have a spouse have kids the present for your kids like there's other things in life that are
• 39:51
  important too um but it's when they never they never exit that season of building and they just
• 39:59
  and that then they and they try to have us all the other parts of their life
• 40:06
  they they lie to themselves saying like well you know i've made a lot of money now um it's time to
• 40:11
  get married have kids but they really haven't shut off and moved away from entrepreneurship and all
• 40:16
  the other people suffer suffer excuse me yeah and i i think i think my wife would say i'm a really
• 40:20
  good dad i get a good husband and i make time for them but but it's it's hard you know it's
• 40:27
  it's the standards that we set for ourselves i think that's it's like i don't know what it is if
• 40:32
  it's a nothing is ever good enough and like the you move with a goalpost like like in five thousand
• 40:37
  we talked earlier like we're actually seven years in a row we're definitely gonna be eight years
• 40:42
  in a row so it's like what what do you have to do to continue to move you know to continue to achieve
• 40:48
  these things and and by the way for that it's not based on it's not based on starting from zero you
• 40:54
  have to you have to show growth based from from last year it's a percentage that list yeah so
• 41:00
  so it's like the revenue you know when you're and i'm not trying to devalue like like
• 41:06
  right the the audience listening the solos the startups right when you get that first million
• 41:11
  to go to a million to two you know you do a hundred percent gains but when you start hitting
• 41:15
  you know 20 million you know 15 20 million and now it's like another 20 um
• 41:21
  the you have to think about things differently um but yeah it's it's it's the game
• 41:28
  when do you when do you when is your like enough enough i've hit
• 41:34
  i i don't think it's a money thing anymore so what's the what's the milestone that you're trying
• 41:38
  to achieve i ask myself that a lot i enjoy the game i sound like her mosey right i listen to every
• 41:45
  all her mosey's podcast a laylist stuff like you name a Bartlett i've listened to the mr.
• 41:49
  beast thing right because i'm like a student of the game i i had look right now i'm still in the
• 41:55
  real estate i've got 99 doors i've got you know i'm in a position because i live in the midwest where
• 42:04
  where i i don't have to work again um i'm good from a financial perspective uh but i just enjoy
• 42:13
  the game like i'll tell you like right now pe and there's a lot of money for agencies like
• 42:19
  they're just scooping up these agencies and i had some big big numbers thrown at me but the thing
• 42:24
  that i couldn't solve was what do i do afterwards like what what do i do like i don't i don't have
• 42:31
  hobbies and i need to get those i i think having some physical fitness like think would help me
• 42:36
  my health help me connect with my son and my wife better um but right now i don't have those and
• 42:41
  so as i i couldn't i couldn't think about what's next so i'll just continue to build that's where
• 42:46
  i'm at right now yeah it's tough it's it's very tough i i don't have an answer for you i just
• 42:51
  know that like as a friend i would say that find find something outside of work because i think that
• 42:57
  this is this is i'm i'm when i'm telling you this i'm also talking to myself
• 43:00
  yeah it's way easier to give advice until i live it yeah but i also find like my identity is wrapped
• 43:05
  into my work yeah and i know that it's not good yeah i know that it's not good but it is
• 43:11
  it definitely is as much as it's you know i i also you know tweet out nice little novel ideas about
• 43:18
  balance and seasons and don't lay it and and it's ironic because a lot of the things that if you
• 43:23
  ever read my content most of those lessons are like me telling me like there i should be doing yeah i
• 43:30
  like that it's like reminders yeah it's great yeah because it's not easy it's not and and once you
• 43:36
  once you get on this there's a hamster wheel so to speak it's just another hamster wheel just another
• 43:42
  you know you it's hard to get off and and completely change what your focus is but i've i don't
• 43:47
  i don't have kids yet but that my my promise to myself was that i would not be working at the level
• 43:55
  and with the view i would not put as much of myself into my work when i have kids that was really
• 44:01
  to promise because i and it's not because like my dad was absent it's actually because my dad was
• 44:07
  very present and that's the exact experience that i want from my kids so yeah i love that at least
• 44:13
  you're thinking that way that's amazing at least you think that that's great let's talk let's talk
• 44:18
  we can talk about we can talk about SEO she'd like i mean it is kind of what you do for a living
• 44:24
  yeah so i think that it's interesting um well we'll tackle SEO and and rankings.io sort of from
• 44:33
  two perspectives one i think it's just this you are a wealth of knowledge in SEO and business
• 44:38
  but i think that also we can go back to that very first question i asked about niching uh
• 44:43
  niching up excuse me and uh when you started rankings uh dot io you already probably understood
• 44:50
  that niching up and niching in general was like what you wanted to do so from uh advice to a young
• 44:58
  entrepreneur you niched up into into law and then personal injury law and i've heard you speak
• 45:04
  with how you could even nich even further but what was your thought process for niching up into law
• 45:12
  as an SEO firm i think i think there's you might be surprised at this i think i think individuals
• 45:18
  have to have experiences in a lot of areas to find their purpose and passion and ultimately
• 45:24
  let's have vindagger and purpose passion and profit it's like you gotta have all three like
• 45:28
  it can't be just a purpose and passion but you can't make money it you gotta be able to generate
• 45:33
  money too the all three and well i knew that legal was saturated i knew that it had been around for
• 45:38
  many years it stood the test of time um that they were you know um willing to spend money on
• 45:46
  advertising and so all those things lends itself to a good industry but at the end of the day
• 45:54
  i had worked with many lawyers because before i started my own there was a brief stint of time
• 45:59
  for about a year and a half where i worked for three agencies and one of them worked with a lot of
• 46:05
  lawyers um it's kind of how to funny how i landed in that position or kind of that you you talked
• 46:12
  about wins and losses and setbacks so i had a big setback on the affiliate side and had to get
• 46:17
  a job temporarily um but it's i think yeah those experiences i just found that they they were a good
• 46:26
  option for me because i wasn't majorly capitalized i was bootstrapped like what am i
• 46:32
  so i had to be i had to have all community that i could like throw the pain at as opposed to
• 46:38
  trying to target everyone and that's and and you just chose legal because they were people that
• 46:44
  could afford to you know allocate budget you know everything at least when i was in college and
• 46:50
  hearing on the news more and more attorneys graduating every day and can't find a job and more
• 46:55
  and more law firms and i'm like okay so a lot of times people say i think there's this really
• 47:02
  poor advice where there's two different versions of this some people talk about blue ocean
• 47:08
  and and you know going to and creating something new i i think that's that is the Peter teals
• 47:14
  year to one but i also think that people have flawed ideas in this and what i mean is if you don't
• 47:22
  create something absolutely new it's actually better to go where the competition is you want to go
• 47:29
  where the bloodbath is because of because of competition it demands expertise right i'll take
• 47:36
  the air i'll take legal right now for example right now there might be a few bankruptcy attorneys
• 47:44
  in a city right or the one patent attorney or the the couple in immigration lawyers when there's
• 47:50
  a ton of personal injury attorneys well there's only three spots in the map pack like who's
• 47:55
  going to win so they want to hire the expert to get them in the top three other if you're just
• 48:01
  the only one by the nature of of being the only one you don't have any competition you automatically
• 48:05
  rank right so and because of that that you know and the time people are willing to pay for
• 48:12
  expertise because of the time saver it provides for them you know i'm more likely because i put in
• 48:18
  the reps that i i i'm more likely to achieve the objective as opposed to then spending the time to
• 48:23
  learn the craft it's all centered around time when was the moment when you knew that you're sort of
• 48:30
  your bet on SEO for for lawyers was like the right bet well but let's just
• 48:42
  my first year we we gross like 79 grand 79 thousand i'm not a ton but that like the next year it
• 48:49
  was like 300 right so it's like the amount of money that i was making doing this and helping other
• 48:56
  individuals was just versus working for someone else it was like i never liked the idea of
• 49:01
  being a teacher or being working for someone else because of of caps and ceilings that's why
• 49:06
  if i was going to work for someone i would absolutely be in sales it's like it's on me
• 49:11
  i would want to sell a good product and i would have no ceilings you know i would hire my own
• 49:16
  if i was look if i was at all the sales people listening i would hire my own assistance
• 49:24
  right and i and that's kind of what i did so i'll tell you a brief story because i think this kind
• 49:31
  of encapsulates a lot of things about my character and just uh things you hear about the maybe
• 49:38
  in a vacuum so i had a big setback around 2011 or 12 that first algorithm hit
• 49:48
  my affiliate money went from let's just say 20 grand i don't know exactly what it was to be
• 49:53
  honest i have no idea down the like two overnight and that's a big good dip and i was a saving money
• 50:02
  i was still partying i was still doing this you spend the money and i looked at and i like
• 50:09
  there was nothing no way around it so at the time i got on craigslist i fired off my resume to like
• 50:14
  so many come i just typed in seo would fire off the resume to so many companies
• 50:19
  that i hit craigslist filter that i couldn't shoot my resume anymore i don't even know what that is
• 50:23
  that's like hundreds well from that within a few days i had three interviews for three agencies
• 50:32
  all remote this was pre zoom this is like go to meeting days this is like operating remote
• 50:38
  company by phone essentially uh base camp was a project management tool i don't even know if some
• 50:43
  of the other ones existed i had three interviews and i got three job offers and most people would be
• 50:48
  like well which one did you take well i took all three and the reason i took all three is because
• 50:54
  i had my team from the Philippines so i was the best seo specialist at all three jobs because my
• 51:00
  output was better than any other person at any of those organizations at the end of the day
• 51:06
  the owners are very happy with my work why could Chris do ten times the amount of this other people
• 51:10
  because i had eight people working for me um so instead of making you know 40 50 grand a pop
• 51:17
  you know now i'm making 120 to 100 and whatever and i get this experience of learning what the
• 51:24
  agencies are doing right and what they're doing wrong so that's that's kind of then the the mindset
• 51:30
  of hey you're gonna offer me all three well well why can't i accept three wait why do i have to
• 51:37
  only accept one entrepreneurs just think different they just think different i love it i love this
• 51:46
  i love this story i'm sure the agencies wouldn't love to know that you did it but at the end of the
• 51:52
  day it doesn't matter because if you're performing it's all the matters but that's so i can't tell you
• 51:57
  this even if i think if they knew they were very very disappointed to lose me they were very happy with
• 52:05
  my output that's why a lot of times you get in these different scenarios where people you know
• 52:11
  that you talk about in house or outsourcing or whatever at the end of the day it's about results
• 52:15
  it's about productivity it's about you know they it could be a pricing arbitrage component in there
• 52:20
  to to make profit but at the end of the day i was a very good employee at all three of those
• 52:27
  one last question on neat like niching up if somebody if an entrepreneur who is just starting out
• 52:35
  is sort of listening to this and like oh that's a great idea i'm into it it makes a lot of sense
• 52:40
  i have a service-based business i want to niche up into something what's your advice to them if they
• 52:46
  have you know every single type of customer they can sell to in front of them what should they
• 52:51
  think about the first thing i would do is i'd look at the data are you generating profit from a
• 52:56
  focused group of clientele you know i would put it in i would put i would draw out those three
• 53:01
  circles on the venn diagram purpose passion and profit like what where do i generate profit
• 53:08
  who do i like working with you know because at the end of the day if you don't have the
• 53:13
  purpose and passion and you're tired or and and and something happens you're not going to have
• 53:19
  the energy to to overcome that to stick with it so you got to have all three and that's what i
• 53:25
  would say look at the data look at try to take a either an objective view of the data or a
• 53:31
  subjective view of of who you enjoy working with if you if you think about some of the
• 53:39
  the sort of things that have changed with SEO from when you first started to where we're at
• 53:45
  right now just to give me like an overview of the SEO landscape um what are some like obviously
• 53:52
  outside of algorithm updates like what works in 2025 that or what doesn't work in 2025 rather
• 54:00
  that used to work really really well i'm going to answer this a bit different i think that
• 54:05
  i think by all accounts from Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hours or 100,000 hours at this point
• 54:12
  who knows i you put yourself at the top of blooms taxonomy and i can deconstruct things into a more
• 54:19
  simplified manner so i think a lot of times people try to over complicate it they they talk about
• 54:26
  the 200 ranking factors and the and this and that and at the end of the day the first is the
• 54:35
  opportunity you have to have great content that targets themes topics or keywords we're all the
• 54:42
  above in order for google to understand that you want to drive traffic around these areas so the
• 54:48
  content has to be better than the first result and that goes back to that core value and excellence
• 54:54
  everything right it has to be better if it's not better google's what google is trying to do is
• 55:00
  trying to organize the web to give the consumer the best experience now there's without going crazy
• 55:07
  on their financial motivations but at the end of the day they're trying to organize the web right
• 55:12
  so it starts with the content it has to be the best it has to be the best piece of content out there
• 55:18
  um the second component is that i that i look at is the links google how they differentiate it
• 55:27
  from a well yahu as they use links as a as an algorithmic mechanic to sort the web now there's
• 55:34
  different things that they look at in terms of the quality of the link they've added other things
• 55:39
  to their algorithm like click through rate and engagement sigils and things like that but at their
• 55:43
  core it's links today we just analyzed 40 million words of content in the legal vertical 40 million
• 55:52
  using chat GBT and AI it's all kinds of stuff right crazy stuff we found that 66% of the content
• 55:59
  that that didn't index didn't have a backlink there's some other signals on this uh i can go
• 56:07
  into this expansive study that we did but it means that like why would google crawl or index a piece
• 56:15
  of content that's not in that doesn't have let's let's talk about a link what it is an endorsement
• 56:21
  if a piece of content is not endorsed via social media even if it's a nofollow link or um a credible
• 56:28
  website it is not going to wreck it is not field of dreams really not going to wreck it's not field of
• 56:35
  dreams you know if you build that they will come you have got to promote and get your content at
• 56:42
  least those initial links maybe not hammer it you know with a thousand links every you know
• 56:47
  every single month but you at least have to get it recognized for google google's crawl is that
• 56:53
  something as simple as like posting it on your own social yes posting it on social talking about
• 57:01
  it's a different communities getting traffic to come to it to to visit it that's the start of it
• 57:08
  if you don't do that you know you take a look at the internet in my space let's talk about personal
• 57:14
  injury attorneys that a high volume article is you know what to do after a car accident
• 57:22
  how many times have been written ten thousand thirty thousand three million why would google
• 57:29
  index it it's already been indexed a million other times why should they rank your piece of content
• 57:36
  there's two reasons either your contents better or it has more endorsements or it's a combination of both
• 57:44
  I think all these people it's it's it's the snaky snaky life right it's the we're going to do this
• 57:52
  geo stuff we're going to do this oh it's your it's your better description length no it's not
• 58:00
  is it better is it endorsed that's that's the name of the game and that rules today it ruled 20 years
• 58:08
  ago it is as simple as that I was going to say people then just overcomplicate the shit out of
• 58:16
  us here absolutely do they try to pull the the curtain over the eyes and and a lot of these sites
• 58:23
  your wordpress and setting up a title tag and those types of things it's it's it's like very easy
• 58:32
  overcomplicated a big thank you to indeed for supporting success story because hiring people is
• 58:36
  one of the hardest things you're ever going to have to do as an entrepreneur as a founder as
• 58:40
  somebody who's trying to build a business it's important to hire well and find the right person
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  but it takes so much time and it's so labor intensive because like most entrepreneurs you have a
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  thousand things going on and there's a good chance that you just realized your business need to
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  hire somebody yesterday so how can you find that great amazing right fit candidate fast it's easy
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  conditions do apply just go to indeed dot com slash clary a huge thank you to net suite for
• 1:00:01
  supporting today's episode now what does the future hold for business if you ask nine experts
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  you're going to get 10 answers bull market bear market inflation up inflation down honestly at this
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  next best thing they future proof their businesses their operations with net suite by oracle which is
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  earns a couple million or even hundreds of millions net suite helps you respond to immediate
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  dot com slash Scott clary so say you can write good content and I'm curious actually what is good
• 1:01:16
  mean like good is subjective does it answer the consumer's intent effective that's it so it isn't
• 1:01:23
  so subjective well I say that is the direct answer but let me give you some complication here
• 1:01:33
  a page can have multiple forms of intent that it needs to address okay so
• 1:01:42
  if I had a page on car accidents well do they need a lawyer do they need to know what happens
• 1:01:48
  after car accident are they wondering how many car accidents occur in a city do they
• 1:01:54
  there may be many questions that consumer asks so that page has to answer all of those
• 1:01:59
  but it can't answer just one version because if it only answers the one version and a different
• 1:02:03
  consumer comes to the page and it doesn't answer their intent they leave well that's a bad that's
• 1:02:09
  a bad signal right bounce rates page on time all those things it's if someone comes to your website
• 1:02:16
  and it's not a good piece of content and it doesn't answer intent and then they do another query
• 1:02:21
  similar or they go to another website for the same query it means potentially that they that this
• 1:02:29
  website this landing page did not help them it wasn't helpful for them and over time if there's
• 1:02:34
  enough of that Google will stop serving you in the number one position that's that's scary because
• 1:02:41
  if you see a high bounce rate and low time on page then you know that it's not answering all the
• 1:02:46
  questions but you don't really know or I guess you could so they grew out what questions it's not
• 1:02:51
  answering so there's always the asterisks right and it depends right yeah there are I would say
• 1:02:57
  the longer the query to the more specific it is you know what are the steps I need to take after
• 1:03:02
  car accident okay here's the article there's no guessing the intense defined in the query
• 1:03:07
  uh but there are certain situations where a high bounce rate is absolutely okay because they
• 1:03:13
  could come to the page get their intent answered and then leave they don't have to go to other websites
• 1:03:18
  they take take something like definitions right nowadays AI overviews even knows up but define this
• 1:03:25
  okay well like do I need to write 10,000 words on this definition do I need multiple articles to
• 1:03:31
  explain do they do they need to visit other page they don't they need to go there they get the
• 1:03:36
  definition they can leave so it it really depends but it depends on on your goals on what you're
• 1:03:45
  what you're trying to achieve and a lot but at the end of the day it's great content does it answer
• 1:03:51
  that the consumers intent effectively and is it endorsed by other people do other people vote and
• 1:03:59
  think it is a good piece of content interesting that you mentioned AI overview so AI overview
• 1:04:06
  if you if you google anything it'll give you an AI overview right at the top um I'm assuming
• 1:04:12
  tell me if this is a conspiracy theory but I think that google is doing this so that your page
• 1:04:18
  isn't ranking as high anymore people aren't going to the pages so that that means that your
• 1:04:23
  force to spend more ad dollars to get a sponsored position for your page to show up
• 1:04:27
  is that the conspiracy or is that what google is doing absolutely accurate they're for profit
• 1:04:33
  business they make the majority of their publicly traded companies revenue from google ads if they
• 1:04:40
  can make more money there they're going to do it I will say it's not like to be AI overview zero
• 1:04:47
  click scenarios didn't exist we had rich snippets they were zero click scenarios it showed the answer
• 1:04:52
  and you didn't have to click through through a website and they have such market share domination
• 1:04:59
  I think they're finally below 90% but but still that they can create a less satisfactory user
• 1:05:06
  experience to supplement their ad revenue and what does that mean for businesses and SEO what it
• 1:05:13
  means I'll tell you this right now I've seen a dramatic shift in the benefit of paper click ads
• 1:05:21
  and LSA as opposed to organic and maps even if you look at things like above the fold on a monitor
• 1:05:30
  the things that are above the fold are typically local service ads and and google ads
• 1:05:36
  after that then you start getting AI overviews you start getting the maps and organic so
• 1:05:42
  they have the best positioning from a virtual real estate perspective so what does that mean if you're
• 1:05:47
  if you're a firm or business well you need to reconsider google ads if you had tried it in the past
• 1:05:54
  or didn't have a lot of success because they're kind of forcing you to use it now you got to get
• 1:06:01
  all your economies and metrics right for cost per league cost per acquisition and all those all
• 1:06:05
  the things right but it's becoming more effective because of how google's designing google search
• 1:06:13
  now the interesting bit about AI is that those those AI overviews or the if you're using chat GPT
• 1:06:23
  or perplexity or I guess cloud wouldn't be used as or Gemini I guess as a search tool yeah all
• 1:06:29
  grog exactly that is obviously taking some of the traffic away from google because people are
• 1:06:37
  using a generative chat as search tools but at the same time the results in some cases are
• 1:06:44
  referenced to websites so now you have an SEO game through generative chat how do you play that
• 1:06:50
  game really like this question see your dad on so there's two things that you want to do first
• 1:06:58
  focus on what I would say bottom of the funnel the your your service pages your sales pages
• 1:07:03
  because it lends itself to optionality and choice right back in the day you could write out
• 1:07:11
  what do you do after car accident and like maybe you could get a conversion out of that but like
• 1:07:16
  that's just like an evergreen topic and like it's going to be in the AI overview but car accident lawyer
• 1:07:22
  Chicago they're going to give you some options to review you know the how close is this firm to you
• 1:07:29
  you know how what's the review rating they're going to give you optionality first so I would say
• 1:07:33
  strategically to kind of counter the AI component the first thing is focus bottom up of the funnel
• 1:07:39
  instead of the top of the funnel where you're trying to get awareness I really look at
• 1:07:44
  google and search engine marketing all encompassing everything on google as a capture play more so
• 1:07:50
  than an awareness play so it is it's capturing demand more so than creating demand
• 1:07:56
  uh the the next thing is your question about geo generative engine optimization the LMS
• 1:08:03
  they the truth is no one really knows but I will say that schema and some of these highly trusted
• 1:08:10
  sites are are cited you go look at perplexity it will definitely tell you where the citations are
• 1:08:18
  and chat GPT will will will will give you based upon their analysis you can start to understand
• 1:08:26
  where they're pulling that from I'll give you an example for myself right now we rank like
• 1:08:34
  third for SEO for lawyers above me is a competitor and then Clio well I get on that and I remember
• 1:08:44
  before I was listed on Clio I would say you know who's the best personal injury SEO company and I
• 1:08:48
  wouldn't pop up yet I'm on 20 other websites that say we're number one right clutch design rush
• 1:08:59
  competitor sites put in this number one the one article we weren't on was Clio's I get on that
• 1:09:06
  you go type in the same thing for GPT boom so it's it's the trust signals for certain sites are
• 1:09:13
  different Wikipedia is a big one for LMS and so in different categories they're different trusted
• 1:09:23
  entities it's an association and entity is an association with something so I go really
• 1:09:31
  down the route a whole year without trying to get too nerdy I'm a sound super nerdy no I love
• 1:09:36
  it I love it because first of all there is a lot of people that care about this stuff a lot of
• 1:09:39
  entrepreneurs are trying to figure out this new game they're smart but also I'm seeing I'll give
• 1:09:44
  you another example and I notice now I'm playing around with the deep search tools on perplexity
• 1:09:48
  and chat GPT and and they both chat GPT in particular I think they both actually show their workflow
• 1:09:56
  as they're going through this chat GPT's deep search for any query eight to 11 minutes so long
• 1:10:02
  comparatively but if you open up the the sidebar it shows every question that it has and the source
• 1:10:10
  that it's going to for the answer and I'm just so curious like some of these sources like how
• 1:10:16
  to pick this source and that source and it'll go through like 20 to 30 different sources to come
• 1:10:21
  out with a very complex answer it'll be it'll be cited in the actual output but it'll also be
• 1:10:26
  cited in this source column as it's thinking and showing you all the websites that's navigating to
• 1:10:31
  yeah it's it's it's unreal it is it's changing the game and you know even in the AI overviews it's
• 1:10:40
  it's citing the source right where it's pulling from so it's a combination all that
• 1:10:45
  and but I think again typically even when you ask it it's still going to give you multiple answers
• 1:10:53
  for like a business like who are the top whatever it typically doesn't give you one
• 1:10:59
  even on who's the best car accident lawyer if we type that what was that what was the nerdy rabbit
• 1:11:06
  hole that you were hesitant to go down well I'm trying to think where where I was going to go with
• 1:11:11
  that you know with your schema and signals and things like that um yeah I'm not sure uh but I think
• 1:11:19
  we hit it on the head it's it's schema it is entities so okay so so like on the entities component
• 1:11:28
  they're basically entities are associations right and and Google if we go back to the
• 1:11:33
  beginning Google's job is to organize the web LLM it's it's to pull accurate sources right
• 1:11:39
  kind of combination of both so you take something like St. Louis one of the first things that
• 1:11:44
  probably popped in your mind when you're thinking about the city of St. Louis is large right
• 1:11:51
  at an entity right if you can become an entity in the city there's an association that will help
• 1:11:56
  you contribute to trust and to rank in that respective city is there any way for a business to
• 1:12:03
  become an entity in a city I think I think it's reputation it's it's word of mouth it's being
• 1:12:09
  listed in other other entities so you take something like a chamber of commerce right in St. Louis
• 1:12:17
  you're now listed as a business entity in this chamber it goes back to old school you know
• 1:12:22
  SEO things and listings and citations but the quicker you can do that that's why a lot of
• 1:12:28
  businesses when they're expanding to their secondary market struggle because a lot of times are
• 1:12:33
  getting a satellite office they're not getting they're not doing the full brick and mortar they're
• 1:12:37
  not being a part of the community guess what they're not a known entity in that market that's
• 1:12:43
  that's the issue last question on this and I'm sure you get it a lot what happens when you use
• 1:12:49
  a generative chat tool to write content well it's significantly better there's a lot of tools
• 1:12:54
  surfer jasper there's a ton of them and we've used it still ranks it still ranks absolutely
• 1:13:03
  but it still needs human oversight it's it's it's like a tool currently it's not a standalone
• 1:13:12
  still in my opinion it's a tool to enhance productivity so we see a lot more prompt engineering
• 1:13:17
  editors as opposed to you know manually sourcing inciting writers there's a lot a lot of things
• 1:13:27
  that you can do here you know there's even other tools to check for AI there's for originality for
• 1:13:33
  voice but it also I was having a conversation with a big firm in San Antonio and I use the language
• 1:13:40
  like hey we can do this old school because I don't really want to do it old school I want to do
• 1:13:44
  cutting edge right I didn't want to be negative and talk down but but it is old school now like
• 1:13:52
  I can prompt engineer something to look and evaluate the top ranking pages to determine
• 1:13:57
  length things I need to include to make my article better I can take an existing piece of article
• 1:14:02
  and I can fill it in and say you know what are the weaknesses what should I consider adding to this
• 1:14:07
  so right now it's in a tool and in the hands this productivity and utilization but
• 1:14:15
  you have to be careful because sometimes the sources are incorrect and
• 1:14:20
  and so it's used with care I want to I want to just pull out some sort of last bits of wisdom from
• 1:14:28
  from your entrepreneurial journey and if there's anything else that we didn't go into like feel free
• 1:14:34
  but we went through a lot I I'm really happy with you going into the weeds on SEO because that's
• 1:14:39
  going to help me too I think that it's moving so fast right it's moving so fast that you just
• 1:14:45
  it's just hard to keep up very hard to keep up if you look at you know your career and and we
• 1:14:54
  touched on some of your personal growth and your in your entrepreneurial growth just to get people
• 1:15:01
  that are just starting out a little bit of hope because it's not going to be all easy tell them a
• 1:15:05
  story about one of your harder moments so I don't want to say like darker but something that you
• 1:15:11
  you struggled through as an entrepreneur you learned something from it but you maybe wouldn't
• 1:15:18
  wish that experience or that lesson on someone else I'm gonna I'm gonna give two stories here
• 1:15:25
  uh I have to I'd say that the first story experienced that I had that is
• 1:15:33
  not monitoring the numbers closely enough even though you see all the revenue coming in and
• 1:15:40
  and you have these cash acceleration formulas and you see it hit the bank account it's
• 1:15:48
  for a time I didn't have I have a CFO today right I didn't have the visibility and I overhired
• 1:15:57
  I overextended myself and I accrued a lot of debt this was about year five so I went into debt
• 1:16:04
  it was very scary a couple of circumstances could have took me out there's no question there it
• 1:16:10
  would have I'd like to think in my head that I could have found a solution from someone to borrow
• 1:16:17
  or save me and and figure but I was close to the edge right I'm talking just because I overhired
• 1:16:24
  overextended I spent too much and didn't have enough coming in and just I was close so the one
• 1:16:32
  thing that helped me might McAllen's book at profit first it helped me get through that I think
• 1:16:38
  there's a time and place for profit first methodology where I think the overall guiding principle
• 1:16:43
  of of allow yourself to take profit is a good principle to have I don't know that you need the
• 1:16:49
  the 10 bank accounts and the you know the envelope system of organizing because there's
• 1:16:54
  advantages to having one bank account and all the cash set in there from a money market perspective
• 1:16:58
  and if you have the visibility from a CFO or a controller or somebody like that so look at the
• 1:17:06
  numbers day in day out really understand it if you're running a business you just have to be
• 1:17:11
  cognizant of what's going in what's coming what's what's going out what's coming in the other one
• 1:17:16
  that everyone is gonna relate to is it's the you know the people that got you here won't get you
• 1:17:24
  there it is this is from the in Kennedy it is the employees responsibility to make them indispensable
• 1:17:34
  if they're no longer helping your organization if they're not growing at the pace that you're
• 1:17:38
  growing you may have to let them free they may bend the greatest greatest employee at one point in
• 1:17:44
  time but a growing to grow as an owner if they're not growing and you're giving them all the resources
• 1:17:53
  and and ability to do so you have to let them free it just is what it is very painful you have these
• 1:18:00
  emotional relationships to these people but if they're hindering your ability to grow into your
• 1:18:08
  business you you have to let them free what did you have to sacrifice to get to where you are
• 1:18:14
  a lot of times people think that if I'm my own boss have all this freedom I could take time off
• 1:18:19
  whenever I would argue the opposite it's it's you always have to be available you got to put in the
• 1:18:27
  hours I hear these I'm in a very local you know city area and I see these local businesses complaining
• 1:18:36
  about you know the big franchises the Starbucks coming in and then then I go to their
• 1:18:41
  business and they're open from nine to four Tuesday through Friday you know and it's like of course
• 1:18:51
  you're going to get beat it's not their fault so you got to sacrifice time you got to be willing to
• 1:18:56
  to do the hard things and and just keep I think perseverance is a very it's a tremendous quality
• 1:19:05
  for top entrepreneurs I think it's required I think it's a required quality yeah I mean it's
• 1:19:14
  that's why I always say like why are you getting into entrepreneurship like what what who are you
• 1:19:19
  doing it for is that a conversation that you wish you had with yourself when you were first starting
• 1:19:28
  in life first starting rankings.io do you wish you told yourself to not do it I love what I do
• 1:19:37
  I I love it I look forward to a Monday so there are components of it I don't like right a client
• 1:19:51
  gets irrational or employee you know there is employee drama yeah I wouldn't want to piss off your
• 1:19:58
  clientele they're all lawyers like that's that's it that is a red flag for legal they're more
• 1:20:03
  they're more likely to to to sue right that is that is a weakness and we do have you know we don't
• 1:20:11
  have we haven't ever had anything major but but you you had to be prepared for that that's one of
• 1:20:17
  the reasons why we have month a month like I look at these legal agencies and they don't have
• 1:20:21
  month a month contracts I'm like are you really going to hold the attorneys fee to the fire like
• 1:20:25
  you don't have in house council are you going to like what are you doing they went out just let them out
• 1:20:30
  um I think yeah I don't know the original question but I enjoy what I do I if I had that oh no
• 1:20:37
  it was just it was just a what would you if you were if you were able to go back and tell yourself
• 1:20:42
  something before you started would you tell yourself not to do it but you said no I love what I
• 1:20:47
  do so I'll change a question what would you tell yourself well it makes me think of like Mario
• 1:20:53
  one on Nintendo like speedrunning a level speedrunning a game I would be very intentional I would
• 1:20:59
  have paid attention to the classes that need I needed to pay attention to like English and writing
• 1:21:04
  and uh some of the entrepreneurial classes I would have had I gone to close because I think it was
• 1:21:10
  a good social exercise and it was a lot of fun and I don't regret any of that I probably went
• 1:21:15
  to win to law school right now I can't outside of applying to an alternative business structure
• 1:21:21
  through Arizona it's the only state that allows this I can't participate in fees right so I I
• 1:21:28
  I lose out on the asynchronous you know a billing to to monetize where if I was just a lawyer
• 1:21:34
  and with the law school I could have that um so I knowing that I would end up here I would
• 1:21:40
  a speedrun the game and and you know been intentional about some of those choices what keeps you up
• 1:21:47
  at night 3am you're worried about things what would that be that your your clients your team
• 1:21:53
  people to follow you they never see I for the most part I don't we handle issues we're very
• 1:22:02
  accountable and we have a plan to address them we're willing to if we're in the wrong give
• 1:22:09
  individuals their money back we're very secure from a financial standpoint I think what keeps me
• 1:22:14
  up is I'm so impatient so anxious and I just want to do the next thing I think it about like how can
• 1:22:20
  I do the next thing that's a good answer dude that's a good answer that's I feel like that's a
• 1:22:24
  cop out answer that's like when uh in an interview when they say like what's your worst trait and I'm
• 1:22:27
  like I work hard I read so I'll take it I'll take it a negative sign standpoint right it's like
• 1:22:34
  I said the positive from myself on an an idea of execution but it's also like if I task someone
• 1:22:41
  to do something and they tell me it's two weeks the first thing that I say is okay do it give it to
• 1:22:46
  me in seven days like it's half it like why can't it be done today why can't it be done tomorrow like
• 1:22:53
  why does it have to take a month how like how long is this task going to take oh it's going to take
• 1:22:57
  three hours okay give it to me tomorrow like but that's not all you know you know people don't
• 1:23:06
  love that and it's um people don't have I try to hire the people with those values of a sense of
• 1:23:13
  urgency people people have mixed feelings about that obviously but you know at the end of the day
• 1:23:18
  it's how you operate and I think that I think that the answer is you hire people that are okay with
• 1:23:24
  that expectation Neil Patel obviously you know him uh because he's in the same game as you he
• 1:23:30
  hires people who are okay with working weekends he says if you are working for me you're working
• 1:23:35
  weekends he doesn't give a shit he yeah he has no qualms with saying that because he says it in the
• 1:23:42
  first interview the issue is when there's a disconnect and you be asked the person and you try
• 1:23:47
  and you know not trick them but like you don't give them the full picture of who you are they come
• 1:23:52
  worked for you and then the expectations you laid out in the interview are completely different
• 1:23:56
  than what the reality is in the business that's the issue in my opinion at least if people are okay
• 1:24:04
  to work hard to make a lot of money doing it and they're happy with what they signed up for no
• 1:24:09
  issue with that it's the it's a disconnect I really resonate with that um
• 1:24:15
  and you got a measure against your values I'm not going on the EOS and then you know the
• 1:24:21
  the the people analyze their plus minus but there's some degree yet they analyze with KPIs and
• 1:24:25
  have an objective and subjective viewpoint on who's really performing because you know things
• 1:24:30
  like time tracking and utilization like it doesn't paint the picture I don't want to
• 1:24:36
  penalize someone that's very effective that just does something more quickly
• 1:24:41
  yes exactly exactly no 100% what was whenever whenever you're building anything significant
• 1:24:51
  there's stress their anxiety there's hits to your own mental health at points for sure
• 1:24:56
  uh what allows you to persevere what's the tool the framework the mental model that allows you to
• 1:25:02
  push through the hardest times so that you can continue to show up and not only show up but like
• 1:25:09
  you're thriving you love what you do um but I know there's times when it hasn't been so
• 1:25:12
  easier or just even events have been stressful so what's the what's the strategy that you deploy
• 1:25:18
  to someone else could emulate you know what immediately popped into my brain was like F you
• 1:25:23
  like like I'm gonna I'm you're not gonna beat me like it's uh it's the mentality
• 1:25:28
  it is it is an issue like um I remember like it's from the play to win mind it's like a mindset thing um
• 1:25:39
  there's a commercial with Tiger Woods when he's he's with his dad in the golf cart and it's
• 1:25:46
  talking about like his dad keeps trying to distract him when he's hitting and he's like one thing
• 1:25:50
  that you will have above everyone else is you'll have mental toughness and and like I think you have
• 1:25:57
  to have extreme mental toughness and and and that drive and I remember like my dad was very very hard
• 1:26:03
  on me very high standards even to the point of leisurely gains like yachtsy I would roll at the dice
• 1:26:12
  and he would tell me when I'm wrong when I don't roll the correct dice or make the correct play
• 1:26:18
  even from a pitch or a poker standpoint like mathematically are like are we playing the game
• 1:26:25
  to have fun or are you playing to win like this role combination has this percentage and because
• 1:26:31
  it's a civil engineer background it's mathematics background just super high standards drive uh
• 1:26:38
  mental toughness um all above and I think that you build those at least for me by exposing yourself
• 1:26:45
  to hard situations again and again and again and again so true Chris I appreciate you so much man
• 1:26:52
  I thank you and I guess I'll I'll give it over to you what do you want to leave the audience with
• 1:26:59
  what is uh one last like words of wisdom insight story that you think um somebody listening
• 1:27:07
  would benefit from I think the biggest thing that that would benefit them from a an entrepreneur
• 1:27:15
  perspective is to it sounds cliche to outwork not my ten times by a hundred times your competition
• 1:27:26
  the reality is I look at my legal competitors we're doing significantly more volume and almost
• 1:27:32
  everything and just because of that volume some of it's gonna land some I'm gonna I'm gonna create
• 1:27:37
  opportunities for myself if you're prospecting on the phone significantly more you're gonna get
• 1:27:43
  more leads and appointments I think I think you have to be prepared to focus your time and attention
• 1:27:51
  on execution first you have the idea don't think about planning to make it perfect but do it then
• 1:27:59
  improve and do it 100x more than anyone else and yes you know two things can be true at the same
• 1:28:04
  time there will be a time when you have to build out systems and processes and hire and delegate
• 1:28:10
  but especially if you're just starting out you know do it do it 1000x more than anyone else that
• 1:28:15
  will be what it takes to get it started and then you'll figure out how to delegate and build systems
• 1:28:20
  around your success after um we don't we can't you know you can't jump past the hard work when you're
• 1:28:27
  trying to be an entrepreneur you really can uh where could people connect with you I mean so I
• 1:28:33
  know that you have one of the largest personal injury um like you have a personal injury podcast
• 1:28:39
  you have a personal injury uh conference I mean not everybody in this audience is a personal
• 1:28:44
  injury attorney unless they just want to come listen a guy you speak about a lot of other stuff
• 1:28:48
  as well a business entrepreneurship life um but tell people where they can go so list out like
• 1:28:53
  podcast if people want to actually come in person uh all the socials website all that yeah let's
• 1:28:59
  let's start with a couple things uh I'm trying to not give people too many options but first the
• 1:29:04
  book we talked about is on amazon niching up so you can check that out if you want to hear my
• 1:29:09
  podcast it's the personal injury mastermind I've had Neil Patel on as a guest I've had Seth
• 1:29:15
  Godin on as a guest big name entrepreneurs and the biggest of the big personal injury attorneys
• 1:29:20
  most of the time we're talking about business that I think would be applicable to any any business
• 1:29:25
  owner I have a conference pimp con last year we had David Spade as a comedian uh I interviewed
• 1:29:32
  Michael Spelpes we had some heavy hitting personal injury attorneys some of the you know the big
• 1:29:36
  of the big uh this year we're gonna have Nikki Glazer as a comedian we're gonna have um a really high
• 1:29:43
  in uh top notch coach I can't um say who yet till that's finalized and then if you if you aren't
• 1:29:53
  attorney and you need some SEO and digital marketing help it's ranking.io and then lastly
• 1:29:58
  if you want to connect with me on social media LinkedIn Chris drier and drier's D-R-E-Y-E-R LinkedIn's
• 1:30:04
  the best network to connect with me on awesome yeah I know and if you're if you're listening
• 1:30:09
  and you're like I can't remember all those links they'll be in the show now so
• 1:30:13
  don't put everything there so pick and choose how you want to connect with Chris um
• 1:30:17
  but I just want to reiterate I've listened to a lot of your content obviously even in prepping
• 1:30:22
  for this I've watched a few of your podcasts and it's just general good to business info you
• 1:30:27
  bring us a really good guess so if you just want another great podcast go listen um
• 1:30:32
  last question I like to ask and you've given like so much and it's always unfair to ask for more
• 1:30:38
  but I think this is the way that I the way that I frame this is say you had uh you only had one
• 1:30:44
  idea one sort of word of advice that you want to pass over to your kids you can't give anything
• 1:30:51
  else is the most important idea that you've learned your entire life and you have given quite a
• 1:30:56
  few but what what would that last idea be and why I would just say don't accept the feat learn from
• 1:31:02
  your failures