Latest / FOLLOW / What do you need to unlearn about Jesus? /// FOLLOW with Tommy Nixon

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What do you need to unlearn about Jesus? /// FOLLOW with Tommy Nixon · FOLLOW

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's harder for people who've been around Jesus to find the way of Jesus because there's stuff that Jesus said, and I'm like, oh man, what am I gonna do with that?
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I gotta now I can't unsee it.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: Our core engagement with knowing God is to wrestle with him and to have conflict, um, which most people I find don't do.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: I have a hard time with like the way we sell religion, and right now I care a lot about this next generation, and I worry that they just experience God, but they don't know him.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: And that that bothers me.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: I do firmly believe that spiritual formation is I gotta learn something about Jesus, I have to relearn something about Jesus, and I have to unlearn something about Jesus.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Follow Podcast, a podcast that believes at its core, the single most important oriented belief that if Jesus is right about God and life and the human soul, then it would make sense that we rearrange our lives around what he says is true.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what we're exploring.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: All that Jesus said was true, and how to rearrange our lives around it.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so uh Tommy, Tommy and I go way back.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh closest friend on the planet.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we uh we talk pretty much every single day.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Tommy grew up in uh a little town called Altadena.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm gonna stop the disrespect right there.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Born and raised in Pasadena.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: Can I just take over?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because this is ridiculous.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Luke, our producer, knows Altadena.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's a first call Altadina.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a carton of milk and butter.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but anyways, so Tommy and I uh we we roomed together in college, best men in each other's weddings.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Tommy is the CEO of UIWI, um Urban Youth Workers Institute, or if you want to say it phonetically, ooh, we uh Urban Youth Workers.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh Tommy's uh an incredible communicator.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he has a podcast um called The Radical Middle, um, that he and different um urban youth workers uh kind of you know communicate on about the complexities of this world and and how to navigate it.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Uh he actually uh has a book that just dropped called um embracing the tension.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really, I think, one of the reasons why I so badly wanted him to come on this podcast because Barks, you and I, we've been talking so much about what it means to follow Jesus.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think uh we'll come back to this after we talk about the Rams, but this concept of like our world is so complex.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the church I serve at, we have this phrase following Jesus in a complex world.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things that Tommy's been really helpful for me is a framework of how to follow Jesus in the complexity of our world and the divisiveness and the struggle, um, and how to really embrace the radical middle.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so let's talk about following Jesus in a complex world.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: And kind of this concept of what you write about in the tension.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think so many of us we're um when things get hard, even just the idea of tension, for many of us, we just we pull away, you know, you you you start ghosting someone that you might have a disagreement about, you um and some of it like you even mentioned it it's could be trauma related.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: There there's there's a bunch of stuff that's happening, but um it feels like the way of Jesus, even if you take the the gospel story of him seated at the right hand of the Father and choosing to enter the broken and beautiful realities of this world, uh it's like his whole ministry was leaning in to embrace um the tension and the radical kind of middle.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about why this idea has been so formative for you and how has it shaped your ministry and for for Eric and I, as like pastors and leaders and the people who are listening to the podcast, um, give us an in some insight into why this matters today more than ever.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of it was I was, you know, not to go all the way back, but I was born into tension.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was like my parents weren't doing really well.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there's infidelity, there was there's a whole bunch of stuff going on.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: Born into that.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm mixed, even though this is what I look like, you know what I mean?
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: I know people can't see it, but I have blue eyes.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I I grew up in the black community in Pasadena, California.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh and so that was my reality.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like Filipino and all types of European, but feeling like an outsider, but wanting desperately to be a part of it.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I grew up in that community.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: My dad was in and out, started another family in Mexico.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I have Mexican brothers and sisters, and so he kind of abandoned um me and and did that, and then we reconciled and we figured all that out.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: But and then I when I came to Jesus, I just when I read uh scripture, I just read all this.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: He's a revolutionary figure to me.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: And yet I was growing up right, you know, coming to Christ in the 90s, early 90s, um, kind of maybe the height of evangelicalism.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and yet I read Jesus and I'm like, this guy is revolutionary.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then I looked at the church and I thought this isn't very revolutionary.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: This is like status quo, you know, just do these things.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so my engagement with tension happened to just be that's what I lived in all the time, uh, experiencing all that.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then I took the the teaching of Jesus seriously, and and then and then when Steve and I were actually we were interns at a church um in Costa Mesa, California.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember sitting there and it was a it was an up-and-coming church.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Steve, you were the preaching intern, right?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: And and I was the youth intern.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: And all these beautiful people, it's Orange County, you know, and it was a big worship church, and everybody's worshiping.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like sitting there with my arms crossed because I just felt like all these people are hypocrites.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and we were on the west side of Costa Mesa and kind of the hood, and it was it was an awesome neighborhood.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, why aren't we doing things here?
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: And the church was like, it's not really in our values, we just support people that do.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that bothered me.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I had a come to Jesus moment, and I just was like, God, your church is full of hypocrites.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm over this.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: And God just simply kindly said to me, Well, yeah, you're right.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: He like affirmed it.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally, full of hypocrites.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you are the church, so why don't you go do it?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, be the church that you want to see.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where Steve and I, um, Steve had started a small group Bible study called, and we called it Solidarity.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: And we just took that seriously and we were like, why don't we actually go live this out?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: And we took one verse to keep the bar low.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Love your neighbor as yourself.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then I went on a on an experiment for 17 years, running and leading that, turning into a nonprofit.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then within that nonprofit, a ton of tension, right?
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: Immigration, uh, you know, police, uh, um, poverty, um, economics, politics.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was so difficult.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so this whole book is my 25-year journey of, okay, if Jesus tells me things like um, you know, the abundant life in John 10 10, that he's here to give me the abundant life and that his yoke is easy, his burden is light.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: I had to reconcile.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: If I believe that the God's word is truth, I had to reconcile how does this actually work.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because uh I would I uh Steve knows I'm not for the status quo.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if this thing's not real and it doesn't work, then I don't want to follow it.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why waste my time?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: Let me go find something else.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I went through that journey and man, Jesus rings true and is and and so it wasn't about like you know, not dealing with hard issues, not dealing with, you know, all the issues of sexuality or or politics or the economy, or all that.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was rather that if you pressed into it, there's a pathway there to help you become who you were created to be.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: And as you do that, then you actually become can become the vessel to bring healing and light to this world, and that God has a strategy in that.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that I mean that's kind of like, you know, in short, what why I started all this and what that looks like.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's it's been a wild ride, and um, and it still rings true.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like the gospel still rings true.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: I still wrestle with it, I still uh you know, ask a lot of questions.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but there's a pathway that I've I've discovered.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and man, uh during some of the worst times of my life, some of the most difficult things, like Jesus is it, man.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: There's like nothing else.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, so I just wrote a book on like a pathway to that.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: I suspect just hearing your story that the last 25 years has informed that book.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh right?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Could could you say, like, man, like uh why is it that you chose to write and what is it over the last 25 years that made you write this book?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because I have a tension with it.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's why.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I think the church can do better.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's the mo it can be the most powerful institution in the world, and a lot of ways it has been, but it's also used that power for evil and and destruction, and yet I could see it being like so incredible.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then my own experience with Jesus has been like there's nothing else, man.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: He's incredible.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: So the tension for me though was I I have a hard time with the Christian industrial complex.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I I have a hard time with like the way we sell religion and um the way you know things are are structured, and um, like right now I care a lot about this next generation, and I worry that um, you know, we're doing all these big worship um events and things, which is great.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: That's awesome.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: I have nothing against that.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: But um, but I worry that that kind of industrial complex is just like we should do more of these, and we can make this money and we could sell these albums and all that.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then the generation like they just experience God, but they don't know him.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: And that that bothers me because most churches don't do discipleship.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's too hard.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: So we just gather a lot of people.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I have like this tension with that where I'm like, ah, like I, you know, um, and again, I I came up, you know, listening to public enemy and rage against the machine, and right.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a little punk rock kind of revolutionary, but I've I've given all that to the Lord, and you know, I've been humbled a lot.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: I planted a church, I'm a pastor, I know how hard it is.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: On the backside of that, I just was like, God was like, hey Tommy, um, hey, that's really cool that you have all this angst, you know, against you know, all these things.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: But also, um, I've given you a gift in the last 25 years, and I need you to sit down, do the hard work to map that out so that other people can also learn and grow in that.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: So that's really why I wrote the book, because I really struggled with that.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that was attention for me.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: And and through the book, I I explained like what that looks like, um what it looks like to, you know, uh wrestle with truth, and that our core our core engagement with knowing God is to wrestle with him and to have conflict, um, which most people I find don't do.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I go, oh man, you're missing it, dude.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and Steve was the one that put me on a lot of this, uh, you know, uh the Jewish understanding of knowing God is to wrestle with him.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you you find that in Genesis with Jacob.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and so I it in that that's that's what this is.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've just created a guide to say, okay, here's how I've gone through it.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: And literally, and Steve knows this because he he loves me, he's walking with me.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going through some really hard things right now, and I find myself actually doing this same process in my life right now.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so it still rings true.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not one of those things where it's like, hmm, I should write a book.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what should I write about?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: It was this is a lived experience that I'm still living in right now, and so that's kind of why why I wrote that this book.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, usually when you you talk to someone about writing a book, it's it's very, very flowery.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're just like everything is, but I think just that the human side of I remember those drives back from the church, and and I was like, Yeah, but like you gotta be in it to change it.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you were like, I don't know if it wants to change, I gotta be outside of it.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and and and like watching like the prophetic voice that was powerful, but also the humility that you had to learn.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think I like stayed in it, and there was some humbling that happened within me, and and it was just like this amazing ways that the Spirit of God like is relentless in our own sanctification, like that relentless in helping us become more whole and holy.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: But all of it, no matter who you are, and Eric, you you've you've tasted and seen this in in different capacities, requires uh the follower, the disciple, to lean in.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and that I think is uh you know, this underlying current um that's underneath the book is this invitation to lean in to the suffering.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: To leave there's an invitation for formation or an invitation for transformation or spiritual formation that comes from the lean in.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's um, you know, I we could we could throw out different topics of like, all right, how do you lean in well?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: But maybe step back and say, hey, at like a 30,000-foot view, give us give us a little bit of that pathway, like, you know, of what that pathway looks like.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because what's so amazing is once once people hear the pathway, then all of a sudden it's like, oh, you can drop different topics into the pathway, and you're like, oh, yes, like you mentioned, truth.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, like let's start here, or let's do so.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Talk, talk that, talk that out for us.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's funny, you talk about humbling.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: I Steve and I were on the Camino, and and I was wrestling with writing this book, and there was somebody on the Camino who's an author, and I was spouting off about you know the industrial complex or whatever.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'm like, oh well, like the nine different steps to do this.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: And Steve just pulls me aside and goes, Hey, that guy wrote the nine path, the the nine pathway, or what was it called?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's it was it was like this guy's a legend, and he wrote basically about each of the Beatitudes, and it's like the the nine like pathways.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Ninefold path, ninefold path, yeah.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's an awesome book.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, dude, it's not like shut up, dude.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what's the matter with and so I like I just you know uh um people listening will probably be like this guy's an idiot.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but listen, I was I was as I was wrestling with that, I I came to a place and humbled, man.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and so I did write it as a way of like almost like a hero's journey, like you're going on a backpack trip, like you're on the Camino.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: So super simple pathway in the sense of and infinitely complex, but um one, I think give yourself the permission to actually decide if you want to take the path of Jesus or not.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's like where you start.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like you and and I just want to give people permission, like, yeah, you might have grown up in the church or you might have been wrestling with it, or the last like you know, 10 years, you've been like, I don't know if I really believe this.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: Do the work to actually figure out do I want to you know, walk the path of Jesus, not just my denomination or my church or my family's culture, whatever the thing is.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, stop there, tell me.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is what's been so awesome about what Plum Creek is doing.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, as someone who's kind of like inside, outside, like um get the privilege to go and teach there from time to time, but to see it from the outside of like these follow um guides, and whether it's on prayer, whether it's on formation, discipleship, like that's that's been like the the piece where people are being introduced and Eric, I don't know, like just like that.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: So resonates with me.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: The phrase we use to describe the journey is pretty simple.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, if Jesus was right about God, about life, about the soul, then it would just make sense to rearrange your life around what he said is true.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's it this has been the big journey, though.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as you said, uh, you know, I grew up uh all I've ever known is uh megachurch uh my whole life that I've been inside of this in the same way that the three of us have.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing that I became really convicted about was oh you cannot rearrange your life if you don't know what he said.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like there is no rearrangement if you don't know what he said.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I think what we have to do to your point is reintroduce ourselves to this rabbi.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what did he actually say?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then wrestle with we say it all the time.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's like being an admirer, that's it's cool.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, if you want to be an admirer, that's that's cool.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's fine.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: But really, discipleship is all around the single word of rearrangement.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: It means like something's sitting at the center of your world, something is so uh dude, that does resonate with us because I think that's a hard sometimes.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if it's harder to um find Jesus uh for someone who's been around the church for a long time.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know how many people I meet that they they come to Christ and they're like this is the greatest thing ever, and then they they get together with the church and they're like it it bums them out because they're like, This isn't how come you guys aren't as excited?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so I so yeah, and and I think if you guys have churches that make space for people to wrestle and ask questions and hard questions, and and a lot of times, you know, we do want to keep the status quo, so we we you you learn the culture really quick, like hey, we don't ask that question, right?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: Even up top leadership, when we talk about leadership, yeah, I know you have all the values on the wall, but we're not actually living those out.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: Can we ask questions about that?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so it so that whole thing, so you start with that.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: Do you are you even interested in the ways of Jesus?
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do the work, like figure it out.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because don't don't waste your time with all these years and showing up to services and do that if you're really not in it.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I would just be like, oh, be free of that.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're interested and you're you want to, okay, go on, start on the path of Jesus.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: And for a lot of people, they feel like they've already gone down that road, but they actually didn't know Jesus.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like they went down the Southern Baptist road, or they went down the charismatic road, or they went down like, and there were pieces of Jesus, but it wasn't like that, wasn't what you said, like the source of it, like the core, right?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: So once you do that, then I we just simply go kind of like what I call the planes of truth, and you have to wrestle with truth.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, the big point there is that truth is a person.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: Why would God do that?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because, yes, truth is black and white, you know, it's not relative.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: However, you're called into the gray of relationship, and and how do you actually live out the truth?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: And that's really hard for people.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: When the adulterous woman, you know, they're gonna stone her.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: He he basically is like, hey, anybody condemn you?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, No, he's like, then neither do I.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: He just erased a line.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: She there was a sin there, and he erased the line, and then right after he goes, Hey, go and sin no more, and then he draws the line again.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do we do that?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it takes work and intentionality, and then and then you get to really fun parts.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think what you were saying earlier, Steve.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: I I talk about the the caverns of identity and going in.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Who are you really made?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then you get to the hip the switchbacks of hypocrisy.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one of the an easy thing for your guys' churches to hear, and whoever's listening to this, one of the best.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Spiritual practices that you can do is to confront your own hypocrisy.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: And it's one of the hard like people hate to do that, but listen, you can't do it outside of the ways of Jesus because you can't.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: There's parts of the body of Christ that sit there and they, you know, they just beat themselves up, which honestly is just them working their way to heaven, right?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: They feel like if I'm contrite enough, if I'm like, oh, I'm the worst, and I'm just a worm, and I'm I'm I'm I'm wretched, and I'm just, you know, and you're punishing yourself.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well, then what was Jesus' work on the cross for?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, so there's that side of it, and then there's also the other side of it, and just going like, but I am, I have done wrong.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: I am a hypocrite.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: How do I receive that and then do better?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and only through the power of Christ, through the Holy Spirit, and you know, uh the power that we have over sin through Christ, can we even actually engage in that?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: And yet, that's the pathway.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so many people, they don't they want to ask for forgiveness once and then never want to ask for forgiveness again, right?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, let's just do that one thing once.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I that was so uncomfortable.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't ever want to do that again with anybody else.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's a pathway there that when you embrace that, that tension that we find within ourselves, it's actually the path to your healing and your wholeness.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: But if you don't have people doing that, and we're just showing up at a service once a week to hear the pastor's process of what they're going through, and I go, hmm, that's good.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then I never go through it myself.
• 23:34
  unknown: Yeah, right.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, that you're missing it, dude.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: You're wasting your time.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: So, and then it and then you know, the journey can kind of goes on, and and we talk about you know the heights of purpose and the valley of compassion.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a bunch of theology in there that I want to help, especially leaders, pastors, and people who are involved in the kingdom of God, like understand um, you know, a theology of work and suffering and per presence.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then the last chapter is really just talking about what you guys are both trying to do in your churches.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: What if, as you continue to grow into this person, what if there's a whole group of these types of people in the world?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a really easy jump to go, that would be amazing.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: The world would be a million times better if you had groups of people that went through this process.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: So we bro, I want to talk about uh two things specifically um out of your book.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk about you know the depths of nuance, but I want to say like um uh what what we've been working through as a community is actually reintroducing the ideas of Jesus.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: So um we released a guide that are the 93 things that Jesus said in just the Gospel of Matthew.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: With a because I I had this thought, I'm like, man, to your point, I'm like, oh, you you may have walked down a road that has pieces of Jesus, but what would it look like if you just our whole church um walked through all that he said?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then so on one side it's like, here's what he said, here's a brief little thought, and then journal on the other side.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine doing the work of like confronting, because I I got to thinking, you know, when you when we talk about uh you know the human experience and and um moving someone beyond what they've known, you know, specifically, you know, we're we're challenging people to look their bias right in the eye.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, there's a confirmation bias that exists, even with the way of Jesus, where we go, we judge all these new ideas on how easily they fit and confirm the old ideas.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like it this is why I say sometimes it's harder for people who've been around Jesus to find the way of Jesus, because dude, I I mean I worked on this thing for the last 18 months, and it can it messed with me because like there's stuff that Jesus said, and I'm like, oh man, what on what am I gonna do with that?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I gotta I now I can't unsee it.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, man.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just like, I'm excited that you're being courageous enough to do it because what it'll do is as you jump, let's talk about nuance.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: As a as you guys lead pastors of these like significant churches, a lot of stuff's happening.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: There's a tendency for us to be like, I it's a weird thing.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I've got to know all the things, right?
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: I've I've gotta like Steve's gotta be the smartest guy in the room, right?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: Or you know, Eric's gotta know, like, just have wisdom, like just hit every time somebody comes to you.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: And the reality is like that's just not true.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, it's okay for you guys to just be like, I don't know.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know what?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't dealt with that yet.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: I and I like we're we're doing it, and because you're nervous, because like, oh my gosh, like what like why would people want to follow me?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Are they gonna stay?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: Are they gonna grow deeper?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, but but that's where we want to reframe all this for people.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I just want to give a different paradigm, same, same gospel, same Bible, yeah, same truth.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to give either an ancient way of understanding it or a different framework for our context today to say, hey, one, that's okay.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay you're on the journey, you have questions.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: It how is this working?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: I you know, like that's a big question for me.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: I just go, how's this working?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: And if I believe this is truth, then I've got I the the onus is on me to figure out then how does it actually work out?
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and so there's a lot of that in there, and you can't have that without conversation.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so a lot of the thing with nuance is that the relationship is the conversation, and the conversation is the relationship.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: How how deep are your conversations with God?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because you've written about this, yeah.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Why why is it that you think people struggle with the the nuance piece?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: What why is it that people struggle with that?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: On a real simple level, here in here in in Southern California, right, we drive crazy fast on freeways, right?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like Steve knows.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: And you can ask anybody, and maybe you know where you guys are at too, who's ever's listening, has anybody ever cut you off to get off to you know off the freeway?
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: And you're like, dude, what the heck?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and they they go over that median, you know, the the the triangle, and they're kicking up dust because they're you know, and you're like, dude, what's your problem?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, well, and you can be upset at that person, and then and then you do it.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: And when you did it though, it was I I had to get to the hospital.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like you don't know what's going on.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like I, you know, I was late for work, uh, whatever the thing is, like just our innate human nature is to be like, well, I have a lot of nuance for myself, but I have very little for anybody else.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: And that has to do with all of our brokenness and drama and all the things that like, how can I, how can I give so much grace to me, or maybe I'm not giving grace to me.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe my internal voice is so harsh, and that's why I'm harsh on other people.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why you get that, right?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: Where you're like, oh, these lazy people, I did it and I pulled myself up on my own.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: Why can't they do it?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't, it doesn't smell, taste, feel anything of Jesus.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: And what that tells me is because people react that way and I react that way, it means that I don't understand the full gospel.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: It means that I haven't wrestled with it enough.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: It means that I haven't like fully understood it and understood what Jesus did for me.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: And until you can continue do that that process and receive that, dude, the gospel's not that great of news.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's like, oh, cool, I don't get to go to hell.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how about you want to live in heaven now?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, there's parts of that.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you how about you want to be more of who you're created to be?
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to see your relationships be healed?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to live with purpose?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to, you know, your identity be shaped and formed?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like that all that's found in the nuance.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: And the nuance isn't so that you can be like wishy-washy, right?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like, well, hey, whatever you want, man.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's more like the it's a barometer to go, man, uh, why does that person irritate me so much?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: Probably because you see parts of you in that person that irritate you and bother you.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if you just capture that and press into that, then there's a pathway there.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: God's inviting you, He's always up to something.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: So He's like, Yeah, let's let's have that conversation.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: And and people are so afraid of that because they're not good at conflict, they don't want to go through the pain of it.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: I do firmly believe that spiritual formation is I gotta learn something about Jesus, I have to relearn something about Jesus, and I have to unlearn something about Jesus.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: And those three pieces on the regular, and and going, man, like I uh man, I gotta, and I gotta have grace for myself in in all of those processes.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: When I'm relearning something about Jesus, then I'm like, dude, I should know better, I know better, and yet I still don't get this.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Or, man, I thought I was so right in this moment, or but I don't understand forgiveness or reconciliation in the way that Paul writes about it or Jesus embodies.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: I man, I I just I want grace and I want mercy and I want everybody else to experience justice.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't want justice, you know, and and and and then I gotta unlearn that.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: I gotta unlearn, no, I actually deserve justice too.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: So what makes me get to receive grace and not be able to give that to another person in a way that's not wishy-washy to what you're saying.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, so walk us through that because I think I think again, these are those moments where people are listening, going, yeah, yeah, I want that.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think leaders ask why questions.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think most congregations are asking how questions.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, how do I do it, man?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: How did how how how how do I and you can just say like, well, go read the book, or you know, but but like how how in your own life, um, do you walk this out?
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great question.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'll give you a it is a great question.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean it's like, is this your first podcast?
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's you're doing really great, Steve.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um I uh so I had a neighbor once, uh, and on this neighbor had a truck, and and they had they had they would create, okay, so like go somewhere and create these stickers that were like these um super political stickers, and they pasted them all over the truck, and it was against one certain party about and they were like super offensive, and it was all over the truck, right?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: And and I was just always like, ah, this guy, you know, and I got to know him or whatever, and and I was like, okay, you know, if he ever found out some of the things I believe, he would he would hate me, you know what I mean?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: So he had this truck, all this crazy political stickers all over it.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then the school um you know sends out an email and goes, Hey, you should check Megan's Law.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: And Megan's Law is the the website that shows all the sex predators, right?
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um in your area.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Guess who was on there?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, my neighbor.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: And and I and I so this thing happens, and I'm like, dude, so I'm living right next to, you know, uh sexual predator who's on this list, and I'm like, and yet he has this this truck that has all these like things that are that are against this certain group of people.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: And to me, I'm like sitting there feeling pretty self-righteous, like, dude, how could you even say any of this stuff against any other group when you're this?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: This is who you are.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then, and then as I'm thinking through that, I'm I'm you know, I'm my just normal time in scripture.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm reading through uh the gospels and and I'm going, I have to wrestle with.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: So the first step is you have to be in God's word and you have to wrestle with it.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm wrestling with it, going, like, okay, God, I know, you know, like Romans tells me that all of sin falls short of the glory of God.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like God, some people have fallen a lot farther than others, right?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, but I had to sit, so I had to sit and wrestle with God's word.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: So that's step one.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: You have to be in God's word enough, like Eric said, to like wrestle with it and then apply that to your life.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: So now I'm next door to this guy and I'm like, okay, he like this guy's the he's terrible.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: And yet I'm like, man, but him and I to a holy God have fallen.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: We both are in the same spot.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: So what do I do with that?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then how do I, as a as a dad of five children, right?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: At the time, you know, um, I'm like, how do I engage with that?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: And how does Jesus see this guy?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: And then how do I engage with wisdom, right?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm not like, yeah, dude, hey, can you watch my kids for me?
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: No, dude.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like, but also with like, how do I see him in the way that Jesus sees him?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then how can I actually display the kingdom of God to this man?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like, okay, that's it's it's right there.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so part of that is right, I so I have to first step, I have to be in God's word and I have to wrestle with it in my life.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Second step, I have to actually spend the time, and this means that you guys have to have margin to sit and think through this stuff.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: You you actually have to wrestle with it, you have to talk about it, you have to like figure that out and how does it actually work out, right?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_02: You can't do that with everything all the time.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: You can just, God's gonna put things in front of you, the scripture that you're reading, your life, there's enough there.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: Take that one thing, capture it, and think through it.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then I have to practice what does it look like then?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: What does the gospel mean in my life?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that means I have to practice forgiveness and being forgiven.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that might seem like a large like jump.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, um, how do you go from like, you know, think God's word to thinking about this to forgiveness?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's because I have unforgiveness in my heart.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: So with my neighbor, I could be like, dude, that guy's a piece, dude.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like, screw that guy.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, I okay.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: If God tells me that um if I don't forgive, I won't be forgiven.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: Ooh, I okay, what does that mean?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: And and how is this guy actually offended?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, like, I don't know.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_02: Do I need to forgive?
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how does that work?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: I have to think through that.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then as I do that, I have to like then like ultimately, I just have to have that that consistent self-reflection.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: I have to confront my own hypocrisy.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: Where am I not living that out?
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: How am I?
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: Where are the areas that I've sinned?
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then I need and then I go back to to forgiveness, and I I need to then deal with that with God.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then the last thing is, um, if it's possible, I have the conversation, right?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: I have the conversation with God.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, I'm better than this guy, God.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I'm saying?
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and objectively, I could be like, uh, I am.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't done what he's done.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: And also I have to work through, but I'm I can also be a piece.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I I can like do the things that go on in my head, the things that I say, my anger, the way that I you don't don't want to forgive people, or I want to, you know, get back at somebody that hurt me.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like, there's all that stuff, and see that journey of just dealing with nuance and all this, because then I can have the conversation not only with God, but then if there's conflict with others, I can have that conversation with them as well.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is the work.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is the work.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: And in and you know, um, Eric spent some time with Dallas Willard, and you know, um, and uh Tommy, uh Tommy was my roommate, Eric, when I would call Dallas every day.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you remember that, Tommy?
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I got his home number and from USC, and I would just leave him a message and I would call um be like, hey Dallas, I read Divine Conspiracy, and I just would like call like on the on the on the regular and you're like Chris Harley or Chris.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was uh I really liked your book.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_01: So about time when you wrote that.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: But one of his great phrases, you know, is um, you know, Grace is opposed to earning, but never opposed to effort.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: What I what I want to ask, and I mean this in all seriousness and also playfulness, is does it feel like too much work for so many people?
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like in and like what that process you laid out, like it is the work, you have to do that work, and uh it feels like in this day and age the spiritual musculature that we have shaped and formed people hasn't been to lean in and do that work, and so it's almost like that feels like a triathlon.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: I just is there a way I can just get the 5k like can I get the 5k, Jesus?
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: Can I just get like can I just get like I see so much easier for my life to get heaven and not have to even deal with that dude and think everything I want to think, allow the energy to go through my body.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: Can't stand that guy.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: He's a bad dude.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm awesome.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus knows I'm awesome, and I'm gonna I'm gonna highlight John 10 10 because um not the part where the thief steals, kills, and destroys, but the part that says that there's a life abundance and overflowing, and like I want that life, I just don't want to do the work.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that because in those verses, right, you do have those two, like that he does talk about the thief and the enemy, and and that's what I'm talking about.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, what is it?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: What's the vision for those of you who are listening?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: What's the vision for your life?
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: And what's the point of following Jesus if you're not gonna receive all that he has to give for you?
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you want the abundant life, there's the other side of that.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: When you don't press into it, man, the thief is killing, stealing, destroying, and continues to do so.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: And and that just continues to make the world worse and worse and worse, and then it's just this vicious cycle.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: But that's the piece, though.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's the piece, is I think that the there's a blindness to people going, I've got the abundant life, and they don't know that what's happening is something is being stolen, killed, and destroyed.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that from my own life.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't mean that projection on top, I just know that, like, oh, I got it, I got it, and then it's like, why don't I feel so empty or so tired?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: Bro, Carter, I just heard this in the past week, and uh it uh it's all about like what's called a complexity bias.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Our brain is wired to prefer a simple lie to a complex truth.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it is why we it's why to to do what Tommy just said, like the the amount of work that it takes to take a complex truth, which Jesus lays out in Matthew when he talks about, he lays out that parable, he talks about uh the guy who um had so much to pay back, the amount of what he had to pay back was astronomical, right?
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: You could never pay it back.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the the whole idea is that you're so angry with other people who owe such little debt, and you don't realize how big your debt is.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's what you're saying, but that's a complex truth.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and we are this this would be my formation challenge to someone is how many times have you looked across at someone and just made a simple, well, that's just it's them and me.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Us and them.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you do it with a party, a political party, you do it with a person, your neighbor.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: The the work is, is there a complex truth at play here that I just don't want to do the work to see.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: So here's here's something that I because I don't want to overwhelm people either, right?
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to be like, dude, that's too hard, I can't do it.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: You can absolutely do this, and here's why you go.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: So you're right, you're in the switchbacks of hypocrisy, and you're like, oh my gosh, this is so hard.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: You come back to is Jesus the way?
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then you wrestle with the truth, and the truth is a person.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so God makes it in this way where he's like, Hey, listen, like it is it is complex truth, that's true, but it's just Me, I'm the way, the truth, and the life.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: Come and be with me.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so, so if you're like overwhelmed by that, you can simply just go, I'm just gonna go be with Jesus, which I mean by so if you're gonna go be with Jesus, you got He's given you a book, right?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: I joke all the time.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: I speak to a lot to youth and young adults, and I'm like, Can you imagine what it'd be like if our spouses gave us a book and said, Here, read this.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: This is this is all about me.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: That would have been so helpful, right?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: And God's given us that grace.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: Here's a whole book about me.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: So learn about him.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you have the Holy Spirit, like engage with the Holy Spirit, ask questions, learn to hear God's voice, like actually have the conversation, spend time listening, write that stuff down.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: It'll never, it'll never go against scripture, right?
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, spend time in prayer, go on walks with God.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you have a hard time with this, really practically speaking, when you go on walks, go on a walk, which you should anyway, because it's healthy for you.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: Go on a walk, go somewhere where you can speak out loud and just talk out loud to God.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because when you pray that way, your brain can only focus on what you're saying.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: It can't.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: So if you only pray in your mind, you're gonna have like, oh, I need this from the grocery store, or what I'm worried about this.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, speak it out and then wait and listen, and then just allow yourself the the pleasure and also the risk of going, okay, God, speak to me, and just and learn how to do that, right?
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: So go, you you carve out time, you put it on your calendar, you go and spend time with God.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: That will reveal truth to you.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, right now, the way that you make sure that's not just your truth and you're just coming up with whatever you want is that's why the church is so important.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: And the other aspect of that is wisdom.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: If you feel like God's like, leave your family and and go to the desert and you know, quit your job, like that's not wise.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: And you need to have people, that's why the church, the people of God, um, are in your life so that that they can also do the same process your process that you're doing and affirm or or um push back on, you know, the truth that you're experiencing.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: So at the end of the day, yes, you need to sit and you think through this and you know, but look who God like Jesus picked out these probably they were teenagers, right?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: These knuckleheads, right?
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: And and Peter's a little bit older.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so if those are who he picked, you know, to to follow him, you can do it too.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: And you can see even when Peter was a lot older, he was still struggling with stuff.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: So this journey never ends until you die, and then it continues on into eternity in knowing God.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: The the the gift of the gospel is that you can experience that now, pieces of that.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: That I mean, that's the good news.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what I would say.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I I yeah, I loved how you frame that, Steve.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to overwhelm people, but this is the work.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: And some of you that are listening, you're mature in Christ and you're not doing this stuff.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: So, so you don't have an excuse, press on, do the hard work.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: You're in your 60s, 70s, 80s, go back to your family, ask for forgiveness, like be humble, continue to grow.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like, this there's still more for you.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: No matter how long you followed or know the Bible, like God is infinite in His in His goodness.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so, why wouldn't you want that?
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll I'll end with this.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: But what's uh the great Ruth Bell Graham's tombstone?
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it says like date she was born, the date she passed, and like literally Billy Graham's wife on her tombstone.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: It says, end of construction, thanks for your patience.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's on her tombstone, you know what I mean?
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that's your point, Tommy.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, here's here is this like saint of a woman, and she understood, oh, this side of heaven, I I will never be done being shaped and formed and my life built on the cornerstone, Jesus.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's it's constant.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's sanctification.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: That is the beauty of the Holy Spirit.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: That is the beauty of knowing God's word.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: That is the beauty, but God's never gonna force that on us.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: He's gonna invite us to just come to watch, to be, to learn, to put.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I was just even reading like Colossians, like with my small group, and and like just amazing.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you can like hover with these amazing verses of like, oh man, you know, Christ is in us.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's the hope of glory.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, like you can go to all this, and then like totally skip, like put to death, get rid of like you're like, no, no, no, no, Christ, the hope of glory, man.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: Seven words.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, bro.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: But then I saw the plans I have for you.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, you sit there and you're like, oh, put to get rid of all the anger and the rage and the slander, the mal like that's put to death, these parts of that old self.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's the work.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that invitation of not trying harder.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, as my friend Andy Kolber says, like, no, no, you try softer, but like, man, when you have grace and God and the spirit and Jesus, um, you don't gotta like it's more just this soft ability to allow the work to be done.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, Tommy, where can people find you?
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because really grateful for what you just shared.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: Dude, I uh yeah, socials like at Tommy U Y W I, which I know is like the worst acronym.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_02: Tommy Uwe.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: Ooh.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, Tommy Nixon just searched it up and you can find the book everywhere.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's on Amazon and Barnes Noble.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: And um it and so yeah, would love.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: I hope it's helpful to people.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what the only thing I want people to take away from this is like listen to three witnesses tell you this is the best way.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: Didn't take away all the suffering.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: I've I incredible amount of pain in my life.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: And and I would still be like, nope, this is the way.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I like it's not so I can sell more books or get more speaking, like I could care less.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's like literally, this is the greatest.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I just want more people to experience it, and I want to experience it more.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so I I would just hope that people go, okay, maybe, maybe I believe these three jokers, you know what I mean?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like, all right, I'll try it and and take that next step.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm so thankful for uh churches like your guys's, you know, that can that that are creating guides, you know, and that's all we need to want to be is I'm a guide as I'm being guided.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and everybody listening to this, guess what?
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: You're called to that as well.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you can't lead people where you haven't been.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: So, man, take it the journey, man.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: We we want that for you and we need it.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, but thank you guys so much for having me.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: Tommy, loved having you on, man.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate you.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate you guys.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that's gonna do it for today.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: If something landed for you in this conversation, don't just let it sit.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: Take it with you.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: Carry it into your week.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about it with someone, let it do something in you.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to go deeper, click on the link in the show notes.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: We'll be back soon with more.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: So until then, keep rearranging, keep following.