Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #588 In Memory of Jason Strong | Jason Flom with Jason Strong

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#588 In Memory of Jason Strong | Jason Flom with Jason Strong · Wrongful Conviction

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: This is Jason Flom, and I'm here with an update
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: that I wish I didn't have to share. My friend,
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Jason Strong, exoneree and fellow brother-in-arms against injustice, passed away
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: on August 8th. Jason lost almost 16 years of his
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: life to wrongful incarceration. His story is, it's one that
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: haunts me. I mean, it's so insane, but despite Everything
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: he endured, he never lost his humanity. He never lost
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: his sense of humor either. He just was a guy
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: who loved life, loved music. I mean, I remember taking
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: him to a Greta Van Fleet show in the early days.
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  Speaker 1: Such a joyful, joyful guy. And more than anything, he
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: was just like a good guy, like a really good
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: guy who cared deeply about the exoneree community and about
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: just other people in general. I gotta be honest, I
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: was in awe of Jason when we first met, and
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: I still am, and I probably always will be, and
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: I'm so grateful that he trusted us to share his
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: harrowing journey. So today, in his memory, and in tribute
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: to his extraordinary life, we want to share it with
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: you again. Rest in peace and power, my friend. Here
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: it is, the Jason Strong story.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: America has 2.2 million people in prison. If just 1%
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: is wrong, that's 22,000 people. That's a lot of people's
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: lives destroyed.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: If the system want to take you out of society,
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: they will do it. No matter what laws they have
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  Speaker 3: to break, saying that they are enforcing the laws, but
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: they are breaking the law.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Having to hear those people say that I was guilty
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: of a crime that I did not commit, and then
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: hear my family break down behind me and not be
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: able to do anything about it, I can't describe the
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: crushing weight that was.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: I'm not anti-police, I'm just anti-corruption.
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: A lot of times we look and we see something
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: happen to somebody and that's the first thing we say,
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: that could never happen to me, but it can.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: This is Wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Jason Flom. This is the opening episode of Season 5,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: and I'm absolutely honored to have today's guest, Jason Strong. Jason,
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: welcome to the show.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much. I appreciate you having me on.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: I'm honored to be here.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really happy you're here for a number of reasons.
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  Speaker 1: I'm sorry you had to go through this. So Jason,
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  Speaker 1: before all this happened and your life was turned really
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: into a living hell for 15 and a half years,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: how was your life? You grew up in Illinois, right?
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: No, actually, I spent most of my life in Texas.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: I was born in Arizona, lived in Texas most of
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: my life. And I moved to Illinois to try to, well, actually,
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: I moved to Wisconsin first. with my grandparents to try
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: to get a different start. Cause I was kind of
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: on a bad road doing drugs, drinking, acting up. So
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: eventually I moved to Illinois and with some friends and
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: then I got my own place there. But, uh, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: I never really did change. I still kind of lived
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: like a rock star. You know, I was working in
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: an adult bookstore, did a lot of drinking and partying
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  Speaker 2: and drugs. And, but I mean, at the end of
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: the day, I was still a good person. I mean,
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: I wasn't, you know, robbing people. I wasn't killing people.
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  Speaker 2: I wasn't, you know, in any gangs or doing anything ridiculous.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: You weren't hurting anybody other than yourself.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. But I mean, I was, you know, living
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: in the fast life and I wasn't thinking about it,
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: you know, so it's just one of those things that
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: some people do that when they're young, you know, and
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: I was living like a rock star, but I wasn't
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: a rock star.
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  Speaker 1: But that being said, so you're, you're, you're hanging around
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: trying to figure it out. How old were you at
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  Speaker 1: this time?
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  Speaker 2: Uh, 24.
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  Speaker 1: 24. So, yeah, so you're getting, you know, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: it's funny because I think a lot of people in
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: their mid-20s start to figure out what it is that
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  Speaker 1: they're really doing. I know for me it's true. That's
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: when I sobered up and started, you know, trying to
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  Speaker 1: really build my life up instead of down.
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  Speaker 2: Well, before I got locked up, so I got locked
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: up in December of 99. Before that happened, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: I was trying to think about what do I want
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  Speaker 2: to do? You know, I was considering going back to
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  Speaker 2: school and pursuing something in the world of art. I
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: didn't really know exactly what, but I wanted to do
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  Speaker 2: something with art. I've always been creative. But I never
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: got that opportunity. It was taken from me by the
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: fact that I got arrested for this crime.
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  Speaker 1: And that's a crazy story. I mean, it was your misfortune.
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  Speaker 1: You didn't know it at the time, but you were
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  Speaker 1: living in a county that turns out to have the
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  Speaker 1: highest number of wrongful convictions in Illinois, which is one
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  Speaker 1: of the states that has the highest number of wrongful convictions.
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  Speaker 1: But other than Chicago, this area that you lived in was...
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  Speaker 1: a bad spot. It was a hotbed for police misconduct
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  Speaker 1: and wrongful convictions as a result. So there you are
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  Speaker 1: knocking around, trying to figure it out, you know, having
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: your party in times, whatever you're doing. And this comes
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: out of the blue, right?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. It was, uh, December 20th. I was hanging out
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  Speaker 2: with my girlfriend and her friend, you know, we were
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  Speaker 2: smoking a bowl, having a few beers and I get
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  Speaker 2: a knock at the door. Thinking it's my buddy just
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: coming over to hang out. Open the door. It's a
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: bunch of cops standing there with guns drawn. And they
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  Speaker 2: push into my room, throw me down on my bed,
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  Speaker 2: handcuff me. And the nightmare began.
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  Speaker 1: Did they tell you what they were arresting you for?
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  Speaker 2: No, but I had a clue because they had been
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: around earlier that day asking people if they'd seen anything
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  Speaker 2: or knew anything. So, I mean, I had a little
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: bit of a clue, but it still threw me because,
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, I had nothing to do with this crime,
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  Speaker 2: so I didn't understand why this was happening. I was confused.
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  Speaker 2: I was scared.
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  Speaker 1: But when you say they were asking, did you see anything,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: did you know anything, about what? Was it a specific
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: crime that they were asking about?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, they had discovered a Jane Doe's body in the
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Lake County Forest Preserve. And so on December 9th, this
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: body was found. And apparently she had been badly beaten
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: and tortured and suffered a really bad death. And blunt
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: force trauma was the cause of death. And that was
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: on December 9th. Around December 14th, there was a prostitute
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  Speaker 2: sting in the area where I lived. I lived next
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  Speaker 2: door to the bookstore that I worked at, the adult bookstore.
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  Speaker 2: So I had thought that this woman was a prostitute.
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  Speaker 2: And I told her, you can't be doing this around here.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I don't want to have to call the
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: cops on you. You know, just go back to your
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: room and keep it cool. And later on, I came
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: out and she was still doing that. And that's when
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: I first met Jeremy Tweedy, who would later become my co-defendant.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: So that night I walked up to him. I said, hey,
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  Speaker 2: how long has this woman been out here? Do you know?
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  Speaker 2: He said, she's been out there a while. She looks
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: like she was crying. So I thought maybe she had
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  Speaker 2: a pimp or something that was forcing her to do this.
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  Speaker 2: So I struck up a conversation with her, asking if
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  Speaker 2: there was anything I could do to help. whatever, because
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to have this going on and I
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: didn't want to see her hurt either. And we talked
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  Speaker 2: for a little while. I mean, even to the extent
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: that we asked about her kids and, you know, why
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  Speaker 2: didn't she find a better line of work, et cetera.
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  Speaker 2: And I eventually went in to eat my dinner and
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  Speaker 2: her and Jeremy Tweedy had this conversation that later turns
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  Speaker 2: out he apparently allegedly said something to her about, you know,
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  Speaker 2: you shouldn't be around here because there was a woman
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  Speaker 2: that was killed here recently. And a bunch of people
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  Speaker 2: had beat on her and threw her in a van
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  Speaker 2: and got rid of her. And they used that as
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  Speaker 2: a reason to come and arrest him. And then he
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  Speaker 2: said that it was me. Now, why did he say
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  Speaker 2: it was me? So the cop that arrested him somehow
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: or another claims that this was an accident, but that
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  Speaker 2: his hand got crushed in the car door on the
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  Speaker 2: way to the police station. And next thing you know,
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  Speaker 2: he's fingering me for the crime. Years later, when he recants,
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  Speaker 2: he says that it was because the cops only wanted
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: to talk about me. Since the moment he stepped into
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  Speaker 2: the room, they kept saying, what did Jason Strong do
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  Speaker 2: with this crime? What do you know about Jason Strong's
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  Speaker 2: involvement in this crime? And they just kept mentioning me
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  Speaker 2: over and over and over to the point where he
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  Speaker 2: got the gist of it. They wanted me. So he
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  Speaker 2: said that I did it. He saw it happen. And
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: then they came and arrested me. They came and arrested
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  Speaker 2: my friend Jason Johnson.
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  Speaker 1: But wait, what's the thing with the hand in the
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  Speaker 1: car door? How does that fit into.
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  Speaker 2: This whole narrative? I think they intimidated him by injuring him.
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  Speaker 2: I can't prove that. But I mean, I think it's
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  Speaker 2: kind of odd that his hand was slammed in a
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  Speaker 2: police car door on a way to the police station.
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  Speaker 2: And then next thing you know, he's singing these lies
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  Speaker 2: for them. Well, there's a second part to this that
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  Speaker 2: I can't prove this, but this is my opinion on
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  Speaker 2: the matter, is the officer that brought him in actually
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  Speaker 2: had it in for me. So prior to all this happening...
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  Speaker 2: This cop had been coming around the bookstore and harassing
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  Speaker 2: me for a couple months. And I don't even know
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  Speaker 2: why he ever started doing that, but he did. And
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  Speaker 2: he wanted me to be a snitch. He wanted me
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  Speaker 2: to tell him about drug dealers and different things. I'm like, man,
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  Speaker 2: I don't know nothing. I don't know nothing about no
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  Speaker 2: drug dealers. And he told me if I did not
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  Speaker 2: cooperate with him, he would make my life a living hell.
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  Speaker 2: A few short weeks later, I'm locked up for a
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  Speaker 2: murder I didn't commit. And he was the initiating officer
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  Speaker 2: that arrested the guy who would become my co-defendant, who
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: I didn't even know on the night in question.
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  Speaker 1: That's a lot of coincidences.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. But I can't prove that he did anything.
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  Speaker 1: You were a victim of some really terrible misdeeds. Right.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: by the people that were supposed to protect you and
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: everybody else in the community. And that's quite the opposite
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  Speaker 1: of what they did. So it's pretty clear why Tweedy
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: would have implicated you because he would have implicated his
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: grandmother if he had to to make them stop doing
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: whatever it was they were doing to him. And he
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: implicated himself as well. But he wasn't involved in the
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: crime either. No.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: In fact, he turned out to be actually quite a character.
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  Speaker 2: He's a bit of a pathological liar. Before my trial,
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: I think he had like six or seven different versions
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: of what happened that night, constantly changing. And to the
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: point where at my trial, he came up with a
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: new version of events that were different from all the
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: earlier ones. So he would always make changes. And he
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: just did this for years. He stuck to his lie
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: for years. But I think it all started because of
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: that one cop. I can't prove it. That's just my theory.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: But part of it is going off of also what
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: he told me years later when he recanted Jeremy Tweedy
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: about how that's all they wanted to talk about was me.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, why would they be so focused
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  Speaker 2: on me? Why me of all the people that they
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: could have thought about?
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  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it sounds like this one officer. All right.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: you know, had just sort of figured you were going
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: to be a good source of information because you were
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: in sort of a seedy area and a seedy business, right?
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: And he had it in his head, you must have
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: known stuff, and he felt like you were holding out
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: on him. So he decided to exact his revenge. This
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: insane story of yours ultimately ends up with you being
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: held in jail for quite a long time, pending trial,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: and ultimately going to trial. What was that process like?
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: Did you have decent representation there?
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I did not have good representation. I had public defenders.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: I actually, I asked my family over and over to
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: get me a lawyer. I knew I needed a real
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: lawyer because these guys just, they weren't going to cut it.
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  Speaker 2: They didn't listen to me. They had their own view
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: on things, but I didn't know what a lot of
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: my rights were at that time either and how I
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: could make changes in anything. But we went to trial
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: with them basically handing me over to the jury. They
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: went in and said that my coerced false confession was
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: actually true and that I didn't do the crime, but
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: I was there when it happened. That was their defense
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: for me. And I was like, well, that's ridiculous. I
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: didn't do any of this. But that was their strategy,
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: if you will. They basically handed me over. They screwed
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: me for the prosecution. I had no chance.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: You're literally sitting there watching yourself drown.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Right. So when the time came for me to take
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: the stand, I couldn't take the stand. I would have
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: gone against every single thing they already said.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: That's unreal.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: They were looking for the easiest route. Rather than to
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: try to fight my case and prove my innocence, they
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: took the easiest option for themselves.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: It's a very bizarre set of circumstances when you have
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: your advocate actually working against you.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: And you're, I mean, I can't imagine. You're in this
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: crazy vortex. You've already been through hell. You've been sitting
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: in jail for, you know, how long were you.
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: In jail for? So the trial, I believe, was in
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: October of 2000. So almost a year by that point. Right.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: So you're already dizzy from this experience. I mean, anybody
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: would be. And now you're in this crazy vortex. And
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: you've got these dolts, not even underrepresenting you, but actually
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: working against your best interests. for whatever their twisted motives were.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Did you know, like when the jury went out, did
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: you know you were fucked?
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: I had a good feeling that, yeah, that was going
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: to be the case. I mean, I still had a
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: tiny bit of hope, you know, that maybe they would
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: figure something out, but no, I kind of had a
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: feeling I was screwed.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, from the sound of it, I mean, even
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: if I was on the jury.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: I don't blame the jury in my case at all.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: I really don't. Unless they had just some weird intuition.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: If I was on my jury, I would have convicted me.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: That's a strong statement. Yeah.
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, at the end of the day, There was
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: nothing put forth to defend me and to prove my innocence.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: No. So there you go. So, yeah. So you– it's
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: interesting because a lot of the exonerees that have been
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: on the show had held out hope until the very end.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: But your circumstance is relatively unique. I mean even with
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: some of the stories we've heard of incompetent defense. How
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: long do they deliberate?
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, it wasn't very long at all. Maybe a couple hours.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Right. I mean, who knows that they were probably having lunch.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, who knows what they were doing for two
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: whole hours.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't even know if it was that long.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: That's how it felt in my head as I was
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: sitting in a cell.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Then the moment came, right? Can you describe that horrible,
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: horrible moment when you're basically, you must've thought your life
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: was over.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I, uh, that was probably the loneliest day of
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: my life. Um, Having to hear those people say that
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: I was guilty of a crime that I did not commit,
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: and not just once, but the judge made each individual
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: one say their verdict, so I had to hear it
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: over and over again, and then hear my family break
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: down behind me and not be able to do anything
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: about it. I can't describe the crushing weight that was.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: How did you deal with it? How did you come
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: out of it? How did you get here? I am
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: actually in awe of the fortitude. That you have. How
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: did you do it? If you can even put it
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: into words.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I can. I mean, so after that moment,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, I wanted to die. Like, I've never wanted
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: to die before. It was terrible. And after we left
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: the courtroom, I asked the officer if he could take
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: me to a private solitary cell just so I could,
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: you know, just break down and decompress. And once I
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: put myself back together and I went back to the
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: general population, I just started doing a lot of thinking
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: and I was angry. I was confused. I didn't know
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: what my next move was going to be, but I
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: decided to adopt this kind of militaristic mentality and I
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: turned everything into a war against the state of Illinois.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: And I studied Sun Tzu and Julius Caesar and tried
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: to incorporate this thinking of how to fight a war,
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: but I was doing it in the courtroom, the courtrooms
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: were my battlefields. So, I mean, I kind of took
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: on that, that mentality.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Did you have any help? Did you have an appellate
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: lawyer assigned to you or anything like that?
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we, uh, so after I lost, we hired an attorney,
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: Jed Stone, and, uh, he did a post-trial motion and
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: then he helped me through my first appeals, but those
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: didn't pan out. So when we lost him and we
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: couldn't afford him anymore, I became my own attorney and
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: I did it my way. And I threw every single
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: thing I could think about him. I filed my post-conviction
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: petition on my own, which was like 70-something pages long.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: And I threw every single thing I could think of
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: that was wrong with my case at that courtroom. I
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: battled it on my own for a while. I got
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: an appellate attorney appointed to me at one point. And
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: all he did was basically drag things out. But for
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: the most part, I fought myself until I got Northwestern
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: to get involved. But that was years and years later.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: And talk about that a little bit, Jason. Northwestern? Northwestern, yeah. Because,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, first of all, one of the best schools
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: in the country.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: And they do amazing work.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: Absolutely they do. Yeah, I would not be free if
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: it wasn't for them. So I was in the federal court.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: I was filing a federal habeas corpus all on my own.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: And there was a procedural issue that came up. Well,
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: let me back up. Before that, I had already been
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: trying to reach out to Innocence Projects for years. I've
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: been writing them letters and, you know, having my family
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: make phone calls. And I had been in touch with
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Jane Raley at Northwestern. And we, you know, been kind
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: of back and forth and everything. But she couldn't take
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: on the case at the time. But we still communicated.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: So when I got to federal court, I don't know
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: if Judge Kennelly saw something in my case or what.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: But he called Thomas Garrity, the director of the clinic
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: at Northwestern, personally and asked him to look at my case.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: And it was just for a procedural issue. But once
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Tom looked at everything, he realized there was more to it.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: And Northwestern decided to take my case on full all
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: the way. That team grew over the years, you know,
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: because they have students. And three of the students graduated,
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: went on to big law firms and brought their law
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: firms in. So I had Northwestern, Winston and Strawn, and
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Cat Mute and Rosenman, all supporting my fight.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: So you, I mean, at least in terms of your
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: legal representation, you really went from the bottom to the top.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, you went from guys who sold you down
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: the river to like an army, a legal army. And
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: by the way, that happened for a very specific reason,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: which is that you found something that very few people
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: could find in your situation. I don't know where you
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: got it from, I don't either. But where I think
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: a normal person would have curled up in a corner
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: and collapsed or done harm themselves like you talked about
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: doing or whatever, you didn't stop. And you maintained faith
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: in the system even though the system had totally let
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: you down and turned on you, which is remarkable. I
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: keep coming back to that. And then as a result,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: you end up with this powerhouse– sort of a power
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: trio of advocates, right? The two law firms plus the
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: Innocence Project at Northwestern, which, you know, as I said,
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: their reputation is amazing. So then things are turning in
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: your direction, but you've been in now for quite some time.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: So around the time they took over, I had been
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: in about seven and a half, eight years. It was
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: a short after we learned about the identity of the victim.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I'd been in there for quite a while,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: and it still was another eight years after that before
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: I was free.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: Did you have any clue who might have done something
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: like this?
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: No. We do now. We do now. So for many,
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: many years, I actually thought Jeremy Tweedy was the guy.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: Because he was so quick to make up all these
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: lies about me and to help himself out that I thought, well,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: I didn't even know this guy. Maybe he's the one
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: that did it. And that's why he's so adamant about
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: lying against me is he's trying to protect himself somehow.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: He was my main suspect for many, many years. It
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: wasn't until we identified the victim, which was seven years
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: after I was arrested, that we finally figured out who
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: the victim was. It wasn't until then that we started
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: to develop an understanding of what might have really happened
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: or who the real perpetrators were. There was actually three
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: people that we suspect being involved, which is ironic considering
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: that three people were originally arrested.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: Right, you, Tweedy, and Jason Johnson.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Right. But I was the only one that was ever
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: charged with murder. They were charged with the concealment of
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: a homicide. Tweedy's was dropped to obstruction for testifying against me.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: But we discovered that There was three individuals, a mother-daughter team.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: They had been, they're grifters. They basically took advantage of
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: elderly people, handicapped people, mentally disabled people, and extorted them
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: for their money. And they somehow came into a power
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: thing with the victim in this case, who we later
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: discovered was Mary Kate Sunderland, a mentally disabled woman. And
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: they took over her life. They kept her from her family.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: They apparently, from what we understand, sold her to this
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: mentally deranged individual who they also extorted. They convinced this
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: guy to have his own arm chopped off by a
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: railroad track train, a train going across railroad tracks, and
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: sued the state of Illinois.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Wow. I mean, let's just go. I mean. That's a
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: lot to it.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: It's a lot, right?
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's insane.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: It's just one of many twists to this case. I mean,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: it really is a crazy case, a crazy story. But so, yeah,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: they Gonzalo Chamizo was this guy's name. He's really mentally insane.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: He's in an institution today. They convinced him to lay
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: on some tracks from what I understand, what my attorneys
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: told me to lay on some tracks and a train
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: ran over his arm and cut his arm off. And
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: in money he got from that, he gave to them
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: because they sold the victim to him. And then over
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: a certain amount of time, they starved her, beat her,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: tortured her and extorted money out of her. So they
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: did this for this long period of time. The last
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: thing that the victim's family ever heard from their loved
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: one was that they don't want me to talk to you.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: It was these people, they were keeping her for this
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: long period of time. And knowing this, learning this helped
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: us unravel the case. Because the whole theory of the
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: state when they convicted us was that me, Jason Johnson
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: and Jeremy Tweedy picked this random girl up off the
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: streets and took her to my room and we tortured
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: her and killed her in one night, dumped the body. And,
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: you know, they had all these, you know, different theories
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: on what evidence was there. Like they said the body
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: was burned by molten wax and all this. And years later,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: after we started to put all the pieces together and
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: found these alternative suspects and we were in the federal courts,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: the attorney general's office and the new Lake County attorney
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: who came in with the idea that he wants to
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: find the truth in all these cases, They decided to
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: reach out to my attorneys and say, let's reinvestigate this case.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: So we did that. And what we discovered, we had
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: some independent forensic pathologists come in, three independent pathologists, and
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: they all came to the same conclusion that this person
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: was actually dead probably four to five days prior to
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: when they found the body, not the date before.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: And I'm glad you brought that up because that's a
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: really interesting part of this case. And it explains why
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: it was so hard to identify her as well, right? Right. Absolutely.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: Because she had obviously decomposed to a significant degree by
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: that time.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: Well, it was more than that. I mean, part of
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: the reason she was unidentified was just a lack of
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: police work, I believe. Because they had dental records. They
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: just didn't follow through with things. And once they had
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: what they wanted, they didn't follow through with investigating these things.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, how can you not identify the person from
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: a few counties over? when there's a missing person report
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: on that person? How do you not make that connection?
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not like she was from, you know... Yeah, she.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Wasn't from California or Nebraska or something.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Caracas. You know, one of the things that helped lead
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: to your exoneration was the fact that new experts were
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: brought in who are actual experts. And I'm glad we're
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: touching on this, Jason, because we know that junk science,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: bad forensics are a major cause of wrongful conviction. And
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: in your case, it was a different kind of junk science,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: which is that you had an examiner, a medical examiner
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: or somebody like that, who testified saying that the body
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: had been found within a short period of time, right? Right.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: She was found on the 9th, December 9th of 99.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: They theorized that on the 8th is the night that
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: we partied with her and tortured her and killed her.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: And he goes on to say that we poured molten
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: wax on her and she was burned and all this
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: different stuff. But years later, when we got these new
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: independent forensic pathologists to look at it, all of that
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: was wrong.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: All of it.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: One, she was dead at least four days prior to
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: the night they found her. But it went even beyond
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: that into the fact that her injuries were in different
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: stages of healing. Showing that she had been tortured for
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: a long period of time, weeks, if not months. So
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: this wasn't something that happened in one night. And further,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: the information about molten liquid and wax being poured on
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: her and she was burned was wrong. They said that
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: all that discoloration and all the sloughing of the skin
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: and everything that this medical examiner said was evidence of
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: that was actually decomposition. There was no burns. There was
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: none of that. He was wrong. And I learned during
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: my civil suit from my attorneys telling me that he
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: actually doesn't even have a medical license from any American
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: medical schools. He got it from some Dominican Republic school
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: that was shut down for different reasons of being fraudulent
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: or not up to par or whatever. So he didn't
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: even go to medical school here in this country.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Well, he went to a non-medical school in a foreign country.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So he basically was just a yutz, like a
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: total yutz.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's the way my attorneys explained it to me. So, yeah.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: It gets deeper and deeper. I mean, these things are
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: always so troubling to me because especially in a case
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: like this where you have a young, innocent woman who
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: had her life in front of her, who is taken
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: out and brutally beaten, maybe beaten to death. dumped in
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: the forest like trash. And, you know, one would think
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: and one would hope that the people in positions of
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: power would really want to find the right guy to
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: make sure this didn't happen, even if it's for selfish reasons, Jason, right?
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Even if it's just like, because it's a small community
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: you lived in, right? Right.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't a big town.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: Right. I always try to rationalize this, but I can't.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Because you have All the people that are involved in this,
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: and it's usually more than one, right? It takes more
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: than one to sort of, you know, create this narrative
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: and then convicting this in a person like yourself, or
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: in this case, three. The actual killer, who is a sick,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: depraved individual by any stretch of the imagination, is free,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: stayed free, right? Once they convicted you, once they even
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: arrested you, they stopped looking for him. And whoever he was,
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: he was free to prey on anyone in the community
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: that he wanted to, and that could have been You know,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: one of these people, somebody that was loved by one
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: of these officers or people in the prosecutor's office or
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: anything else. So even in the situation where we all
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: find it hard to understand how someone could have the
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: lack of soul or empathy or whatever it is, or
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: just the total breakdown that allows them to feel comfortable
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: locking up someone who they knew was innocent or more
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: than one person in this case. They would want to
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: keep their family and their community safe, but they didn't.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: That goes out the window in these cases. They get
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: this tunnel vision like they did in your case, and
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: they just go for it.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of that, there's a lot there,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: by the way, that you just said, but I think
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: a lot of that is systemic. There's a systemic problem,
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: especially in places like Illinois. Cook County is probably the worst,
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: where this has been going on for so many generations
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: that these cops just follow in the same footsteps of
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: all their predecessors. I mean, you probably follow this back
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: to the days of Al Capone. I mean, you've got
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: governors in Illinois that are in jail.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: Most of them.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's a systemic problem that's been going on
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: for a long time. And if new police officers coming
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: into the force don't see good examples to follow, then
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: they're going to follow the bad examples that they see.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: And that's what has gone on for so long that
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: that's all they know how to do. I'm not going
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: to say all of them are bad because they're not.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: No, of course not.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: But a few bad apples can corrupt all of them
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: because nobody wants to be the guy that says, Hey,
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: that cop's not doing his job right because then they're Serpico, right?
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: And nobody wants to be. that. So it becomes this
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: big problem that you can't get away from. And I
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: don't know what the answer is to fix it.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: If there's anything that stands out, and obviously it was
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: a miserable 15 and a half years, but One thing
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: I'm curious about is, was there a worst moment in
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: all that time in prison? And was there one moment
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: that actually you remember and brings you a smile?
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: Well, as far as prison goes, the worst moment would
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: probably be the ride to prison. It was the most
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: terrifying I could ever imagine. I mean, you're an innocent
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: man on a bus going to a place where you
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: know that everybody there is hardened criminals. Well, most people
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: there is hardened criminals. It's a maximum security prison. All
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: I could think about is, am I going to be raped?
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: Am I going to be murdered? Am I going to
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: be forced to kill somebody to survive? What is my
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: life going to become? I didn't know what to expect.
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: I was terrified. But I didn't show it. I stood tall,
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: stood my ground, and did what I had to do.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: I met a lot of good people and showed myself
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: to be a stand-up guy. I got by. I survived it.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Was there a moment that you can remember besides obviously
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: the moment when the guard came to tell you that
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: you were free or even when your lawyer told you
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: that you were going to be getting out in a
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: few days? Was there any other moment that stands out
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: that you had a moment of humanity or grace or,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: you know, something kind that somebody did or, you know,
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: anything like that?
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean, probably a lot of small things,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: but I can't think of nothing like really, really major
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: other than, you know, every time my family would come
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: to see me. That was my big moments, you know.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, for the most part, it was just day-to-day stuff.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: It was all the same. The monotony of it kind
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: of gets to you. So it's all the same stuff
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: over and over. I found joy in the fact that
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: I had some really good friends. I met some really
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: great people, one of which is like a brother to me.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: I got to also say, man, I owe a lot
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: of credit to my mom and my grandmother and my family.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: They were a source of strength for me as well.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: All these years go by, but you spent seven and
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: a half years fighting a lonely battle by yourself. And
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: then you get another seven and a half, eight years
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: with the cavalry, right? And then ultimately we know what
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: happened because you're sitting here. Um, and, and how did
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: that come down? What was the moment when you first knew,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: like you knew you were fucked when you were in
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: the courtroom? What was the moment when you knew that
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: you were unfucked?
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow. That's, uh, I mean, there's a couple different
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: areas where I started to feel hope. But I'd say
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: the moment when I knew things were probably going to
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: work out was about a few days before I was released.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: My attorney called me and said that they were expecting
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: to have a meeting with the state's attorney and the
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: attorney general in Kennelly's office. That was the judge. And
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: that they expected a release to be signed, that they
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: were going to vacate my convictions. And it actually came
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: sooner than they expected. I was surprised. I was kind
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: of already packing and planning, hoping that this was going
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: to play out the way they thought. And I was
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: taking it easy, you know, taking a break and watching
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: a movie. And the officer comes by the cell and says, Strong,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: what are you doing? Pack your shit, man. You're getting
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: out of here. I'm like, what? What the fuck are
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: you talking about? And I wasn't expecting it for, you know,
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: another day or two. And it just threw me, man.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: I jumped down. I'm like packing all my shit as
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: fast as I can. All my guys are happy for me.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: People are clapping, wishing me well. People that weren't in
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: their cells were coming up, giving me hugs. It was
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: a very crazy but wonderful feeling and day. Of course,
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: I had to wait for my mom to drive up
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: and pick me up. My attorneys were there. When I
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: walked out, I was so overwhelmed. I broke down into tears.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Just all those years of you know, staying stoic and fighting.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: And it just, I was able to let it go.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: That's an amazing picture that you're painting right there. And
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: it's actually really heartwarming to think about all the other guys,
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: you know, who are still facing their own demons and
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: their own sentences. But the fact that they were able
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: to take joy in your release.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Well, I made a lot of, you know, good friends
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: in there. I mean, guilt or innocence didn't matter as
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: far as other people in there. you judge people by
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: who they were. And there's a lot of stand-up guys
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: in there. They're not all scum like some people would
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: have people believe. And I met a lot of good
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: people in there. There are some bad people, don't get
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: me wrong, but I made some good friends. I still
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: go back to the prison now to visit a couple guys.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: That's amazing. So you're watching the movie, you get this,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: you're sort of touched by an angel, right? Although it's
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: in the form of a prison guard in this case.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: He was actually a cool prison guard. Oh, good.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: Well, that adds a little something to it, too. And then...
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: A few hours later, whatever it is, your mom arrives.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: She must have been breaking down too. And what time
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: of year was it when you got out? And what
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: time of day was it? Was it hot? Was it cold?
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: And where'd you go and what'd you do? What was
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: the first thing you did?
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: So it was May 28th, 2015. And it was a nice,
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: nice day out. So there was three of my attorneys
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: there and my mom. And we went to this nearby diner.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: And I had a bacon mushroom cheeseburger, which was the
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: best bacon mushroom cheeseburger I've ever had. And we sat
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: around and talked and just enjoyed the moment and kind
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: of let everything else just melt away.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: Were there tears?
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: At that point, no. It was just jubilation, man, just
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: telling stories and talking and being happy. The tears, most
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: of those were shed in the parking lot before we
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: went to the diner. so yeah it was just an
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: all happy moment you know with all of us sitting
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: there and eating a meal together and talking about future
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: dreams and hopes and.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: You know so I'm thinking about this first meal so
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: to speak right people think about the last supper I'm
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: thinking about the first meal and how good does food
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: taste after 15 and a half years of institutional you
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: know slop so to speak I think there's another element
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: to this particular story of the first meal.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah so uh I have this story, which is kind
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: of it's a growing story, if you will. When I
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: went to court in federal court, I had a writ
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: to Stateville. I originally spent all my time in Menard
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: and we didn't have oranges. I used to love oranges
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: growing up as a kid. And when I got to Stateville,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: they had oranges and I got an orange and I
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: hadn't seen or had an orange in like eight years,
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: eight and a half years at this point. And so
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: I just looked at that orange and smelled it and
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: rolled it around in my hand. I savored every moment
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: of that orange. And most people are like, oh, you
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: must really love oranges. But it's not so much that.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: It's the little things that everyday people take for granted
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: that you miss so much when it's deprived of you.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: And so I ate that orange and that was the
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: best orange I ever ate. And when I got out,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: the day I got out and we went to that
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: little diner and had this bacon mushroom cheeseburger, I was
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: telling my attorneys about this story. And the waitress overheard.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: And she came over to me after I was done
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: and gave me an orange.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: And so it kind of grew. And then later, last
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: year in San Diego at the Innocence Network Conference, I
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: was telling this same story. And after I was done,
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: one of the girls that was there in this little
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: group walked over and gave me an orange. So this
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: is like this evolving story about an orange and its
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: meaning in my life and how when I was sitting
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: in a prison cell, it had all this weight of
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: You know, something so small but so powerful and meaningful.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: So you drove back to Tennessee. What date was that?
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: May 28, 2015.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: So that's pretty recent. And since then, how's life?
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: It's good, you know. I mean, it took me a
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: little while to adapt to things and want to get
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: back out around people. I was very uncomfortable in public.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Like if I went to a Walmart, just having people,
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: you know, aimlessly wandering around me kind of put me
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: on ease, you know, so I still had that kind of,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: you know, what are you doing behind me kind of feel,
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: you know, like you have in prison. And so, yeah,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: I was very weird about being out in public for
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: a while. And I almost came dangerously close to creating
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: my own prison at home. So I didn't want to leave.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: But I forced myself out of my comfort zone and
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: I got out there and just started facing things and
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: doing things. And I still like to sit where I
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: can see everybody. But, you know, I get around in
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: public with no problem. I go to concerts now and,
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm trying to become an aspiring filmmaker and
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: I do a TV show. So I'm getting around and
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: bumping elbows with people and going to conferences and doing
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: different things.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Jason, we have a tradition here on Wrongful Conviction, which
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: is that at the end of I'd like to turn
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: the mic over to you, the star of the show,
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: and just share with us anything at all that you
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: want to share. Okay.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Well, I did want to add that I'm also working
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: on a documentary that I'm filming about wrongful convictions. And
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: the purpose of this film is that I don't want
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: to preach to the choir anymore. I want to reach
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: out to more and more people and show people that
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: this is a bigger problem than one or two people
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: you might see in a documentary. I think too many
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: people are unaware of how big of a problem this is.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: They see a story on Kurt Bloodsworth or someone else,
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: and they'll say, oh, poor that person, poor this person.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: And I want them to understand that there are thousands
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: of people involved that this is probably happening to right
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: now that we don't even know about. America has 2.2
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: million people in prison. If just 1% is wrong, that's
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: 22,000 people. That's a lot of people's lives destroyed potentially,
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: you know, and we need to be aware of this.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: Martin Luther King said, injustice anywhere is a threat to
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: justice everywhere. We need to be aware of our problems
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: and hold people accountable when they break the laws that
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: they're supposed to uphold. Cops and prosecutors should not be immune.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to innocenceproject.org to learn
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardus. The music
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: in the show is by three-time Oscar-nominated composer, Jay Ralph.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at wrongfulconviction and
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: Flom is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number One.