Latest / The Fourcast / Mamdani and Polanski: can a new left undo Trump’s climate reversal?

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Mamdani and Polanski: can a new left undo Trump’s climate reversal? · The Fourcast

0:00
This administration, the United States has completely shifted
0:02
the dynamic around getting to Net 0 at all.
0:06
Comments that Bill Gates made even in the past week about
0:10
effectively a more moderate approach is a complete shift.
0:13
Trump surrendering, going back to drill, baby drill, as he puts
0:16
it. In doing so, he's could well be
0:18
surrendering the greatest economic opportunity in the
0:21
history of the human race to China.
0:23
Let's just come then to the the big political development New
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York and and Zara Mandani. Is there a bigger trend here
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that might lead to something? Hello and welcome to the
0:36
forecast. While COP 30 gets underway in
0:39
Brazil, in the US, Donald Trump is ripping up climate policy,
0:43
blasting his allies for falling for what he calls the world's
0:47
greatest con job. And big business is working out
0:50
whether or not to follow his lead.
0:51
And yet in New York, Zoran Mandani, a left wing populist
0:55
unafraid to tout a green agenda, has just won the mayoral race.
0:59
And in the UK, the Green Party has surged under Zach Polanski.
1:03
So is the direction of travel really a climate rollback?
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Or is a new left preparing to claim power and reclaim the
1:10
climate argument? With me from COP in Belem is our
1:14
chief correspondent, Alex Thompson, and in London, the
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financial journalist and author Andrew Ross Sorkin, whose new
1:20
book 1929 investigates the Wall Street crash.
1:24
Thank you both for joining us. Andrew, let's begin with you.
1:27
I mean, to what extent is Trump trying to cast a shadow over COP
1:33
30 and frustrate the whole, you know, the whole process?
1:37
Oh, I don't think he's just trying.
1:39
I think he is and and doing so quite successfully by I mean all
1:43
of the rollback efforts that have been made already by this
1:48
administration in the United States has completely shifted
1:50
the dynamic around net getting to net 0 at all.
1:55
And I think you're seeing it in terms of even the large big tech
1:57
companies in America that made all sorts of pledges effectively
2:01
stepping away from them. The comments that Bill Gates
2:03
made even in the past week about effectively a more moderate
2:08
approach towards those goals is a complete shift.
2:12
And and despite frankly you know, the mayoral elect in in
2:16
New York City, Zoran Mandami, I am not sure that the direction
2:21
of travel is in, in cops favour, if you will, in this moment.
2:27
Yeah, I mean, look, look, Trump is sort of is not sending a high
2:29
level team to Brazil. America's coming out of the
2:33
Paris climate agreement. But but just just focus on on
2:37
that sort of corporate America story, if you like.
2:40
I mean, you wrote about Bill Gates.
2:43
I mean, how much of a real rollback is this?
2:47
Or is there an element to which corporate America is getting on
2:50
with what it was doing before Trump was re elected, but just
2:54
not being as vocal about it as it was before so as not to annoy
2:59
him, you know? Look, I think there's some level
3:03
of of truth to that. I think one of the things that's
3:05
happened in the United States is the the enormous amount of
3:07
investment being made in artificial intelligence right
3:10
now. And all of the, the, the sort of
3:14
power and energy ecosystem around that that's required has
3:17
raised real questions about how much carbon ultimately is going
3:21
to be put out as a function of, of all of the new technology and
3:26
investment that needs to be made and energy that needs to get
3:28
made. So I think in some ways there's
3:30
been a complete rethink even with an industry about how to
3:34
approach these goals. I think there was a lot of good
3:37
faith efforts that were made, you know, during the past
3:40
administration before that around net 0 sum, you know,
3:44
companies suggesting they were going to get to, you know, even
3:47
even less than net 0 effectively going back in time.
3:50
But I think actually Bill Gates's comments are especially,
3:55
you know, important in this moment because one of the things
3:57
that he's effectively saying now is not the climate is an
4:01
important, but especially in a moment where, you know, USAID
4:05
money has effectively disappeared, that now there is a
4:09
real debate about how resources get spent.
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And in a world of, of finite resources, is it going to be
4:16
spent towards climate? Is it going to be spent towards
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other things? In this case, I think Bill Gates
4:20
is now saying, I think we'll probably see this him deploy
4:23
more money towards, you know, measles and polio and things
4:26
like that. And and frankly, a way at least,
4:29
or at least less than where he was on climate before.
4:33
Alex, I mean, to what extent is this shadow being felt in Brazil
4:38
as COP gets underway? Well, I think the the shadows
4:40
clearly being felt in in Brazil as are being felt elsewhere
4:43
across the whole climate world. But there is, dare I say it, a
4:46
possibility that we might be getting America here and
4:49
Trumpism a little bit out of perspective.
4:52
There is the second industrial revolution on this planet going
4:55
on. We started, the Brits LED it of
4:57
course with coal 150 odd years ago.
4:59
It's now happening with electricity, and it's now being
5:02
LED very much by China. Now, that's impossible to
5:06
ignore. And when you set that fact, and
5:09
it is an economic fact against what Trump and other politicians
5:15
of some parties may be saying elsewhere in the world, it comes
5:19
close to being a little bit irrelevant.
5:21
You know, I mean renewables outstripped fossil fuels for the
5:25
first time last year by 4141%. The projection of of renewables
5:30
roll out has exceeded the expectations and the projections
5:33
of the International Energy Agency by 1500% since 2015.
5:39
The amount of money going into renewables is now 2.1 trillion
5:43
this year. That is twice the amount of
5:46
money going into coal, oil and gas.
5:49
More people last year for the first time were employed in
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renewables around the world energy sector than are employed
5:55
in fossils. That is the reality.
5:57
That is what is happening. And nothing that Donald Trump or
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anybody else politically can say about, you know, global warming
6:04
being a con or net 0 being too expensive.
6:06
They never tell you what not doing net 0 cost, by the way,
6:10
none of that is going to make any difference because big
6:12
business frankly sees the climate breakdown as an
6:15
opportunity and they're going for it.
6:18
And yet, you know, Europe is clearly divided.
6:22
It's declarations at the beginning of COP have clearly
6:26
been watered down. Their ambitions have been
6:30
shrunk. They're delaying the start of
6:33
the new European carbon market. You know, what do you think is
6:37
going on there And, and, and, and what do you think we will
6:40
then hope to get out of this COP by the end of it?
6:45
Well, hope it's not hope. It's not exactly thick in the
6:49
steamy Equatorial air here, Krishnan, to put it, to put it
6:52
mildly. And the political reasons for
6:54
that are obvious. But I mean, the cop is one
6:57
thing, but it is apart from the House, it's fearsomely
7:00
democratic. So one country, one country out
7:03
of what is 194, whatever can stymie and sabotage the whole
7:07
process. The Saudis want to sabotage
7:09
things because they want to go on exporting oil.
7:11
The biggest oil exporters on the planet, the Indians have a
7:14
massive domestic coal interest. They want to keep that going.
7:18
But at the same time, there is this extraordinary push towards
7:22
renewables elsewhere. And don't forget, these cops do
7:25
matter. If it wasn't for the cop
7:27
process, we'd all still be talking about the ozone layer.
7:30
It was a COP which put paid to that and stopped the CFCS going
7:34
into the atmosphere. If it wasn't for cops, humans,
7:37
humanity would be looking at a four Celsius rise in
7:41
temperatures, average global temperatures by the end of the
7:43
century. That's been pulled back to 2.6.
7:47
And if you what I've just been saying about how the projections
7:50
for renewables are outstripping, the reality is outstripping the
7:53
projections for renewables, that 2.6 could come lower still.
7:58
So they do make progress. It's just, as many people would
8:02
say, too slow. Andrew.
8:04
Well, look, I think they out this point, there's no question
8:07
renewables are still, you know, on a trend line going in the
8:10
right direction. But so much of that trend line
8:12
is actually a function of what's happening in China uniquely.
8:15
And actually one of the things that's going to be very
8:17
interesting to watch over the next several years is how much
8:20
the United States and frankly Europe want to compete
8:22
effectively with China when it comes to renewables.
8:26
That is a functional big question mark right now.
8:29
But I do think I going back to this direction of travel in
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terms of what corporate America is looking at right now.
8:36
You know, they're seeing a president that effectively is
8:39
saying don't invest in these things.
8:41
I mean, it's not just saying that they that this president's
8:44
agnostic, This president is not agnostic about where where fuel
8:49
and energy is going to come from in the future.
8:52
That that has become an interesting point.
8:54
And you have not seen the CEO community rise up and raise
8:58
their hand and say, you know what, Mr. President, we disagree
9:00
with you. In fact, they have been silent
9:02
on this issue in large part, to be honest with you, because
9:05
either they disagree with the president or frankly, they agree
9:08
with the president or think that it's a cheaper option to go that
9:11
approach, even if it's the short term approach.
9:14
Do do they not fear, though, that America will just fall
9:17
behind, that this is is a massive missed opportunity as
9:20
China surges ahead with renewables and takes this sort
9:24
of global leadership role, that America becomes, you know,
9:28
partly irrelevant but also way behind in business terms?
9:33
Well, look, the big question right this moment is actually a
9:36
function of tariffs and how the tariff regime is changing
9:42
everything. I mean, you know, the United
9:43
States effectively has argued that these tariffs are some kind
9:46
of national security or resiliency argument.
9:49
But the truth of the matter is that if you are creating your
9:52
own domestic economy, the competition becomes less
9:56
important. Look, I like competition.
9:59
You like competition. Actually, most CE OS think that
10:02
they like competition, except when it's competition with
10:05
themselves. So the so the global markets in
10:08
renewable technology is not seen as the big opportunity that it
10:13
was two years ago. I think that there is a real
10:17
divide given that what given this idea of the fracturing of
10:20
globalization right now, I think there's a real question mark
10:24
within the CEO community, especially in the United States
10:27
about what that really means anymore and what competition in
10:31
around the globe is ultimately going to look like.
10:34
And the truth is the United States, while we were creating
10:37
some of this technology, we were not manufacturing it and
10:40
exporting it. And so that's an interesting and
10:43
important factor just to think about service, how U.S. business
10:46
thinks about this. In fact, most of it was being
10:49
imported. Alex, I mean, the other thing
10:51
that's that may, you know, rear its head in these negotiations
10:55
is the fear among some countries of Trump using his tariff policy
11:00
to to thwart international agreements.
11:04
We saw what happened at the IMO over the last few days where
11:08
Trump basically blocked a, a, a, an attempt to make shipping more
11:13
environmentally friendly. Could he do the same at COP 30?
11:19
He could come to that in a minute, just to come back to
11:20
what Andrew was saying a moment ago.
11:22
I'm sure Andrew would agree with me.
11:23
Don't read too much into the silence of CEOSCEOS.
11:26
Don't pick fights with Heads of Government.
11:28
That's not that. Therefore, the board doesn't
11:30
like it. The markets don't like it.
11:31
They get on. And in terms domestically of
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getting on, let's consider, if you will for a moment, what's
11:37
happening in the United States. Where's the biggest roll out of
11:40
renewables in the United States? Which state would you choose?
11:43
The answer, of course, is Texas. Oil rich, gas rich Texas.
11:47
They're people. They're absolutely forging
11:49
ahead, and they're forging ahead with as much perhaps silence,
11:52
subtlety and subterfuge as they can.
11:55
Globally. It is said in some quarters, and
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there may be some grain of truth in this or it may be hyperbole
12:00
that Trump surrendering on the issue of going back to drill,
12:05
baby drill as he puts it. In doing so, he's could well be
12:08
surrendering the greatest economic opportunity in the
12:12
history of the human race to China to get on with it and
12:15
perhaps the EU when they get their act together to come on in
12:17
the curts in the coat tails. Certainly across the UK there
12:20
are many of companies who are forging ahead in the renewables
12:24
markets and selling right into markets like like the United
12:27
States. We filmed in one last week,
12:29
massive batteries, container sized batteries.
12:32
Where are they penetrating the market in the US?
12:34
Why? Because U.S. companies are being
12:36
discouraged from doing so. But they need large batteries
12:40
for when the wind don't blow. Now, as regards the IMO, yeah,
12:43
the big fear you talked, we started this conversation
12:46
worrying about the shadow of Trump hanging over.
12:48
It's true Trump isn't sending a high level delegation.
12:51
It's true he's trying to pull out of Paris, but that would
12:54
still take many, many more months to achieve.
12:56
It's also true that a lot of state interests, California and
13:00
many states, are sending delegations here to say, look,
13:04
bluntly, we're not listening to what the White House is saying.
13:06
We're getting on with making money in renewables.
13:08
But there is that fear at the end of the International
13:11
Maritime Organization's conference where they were
13:14
trying at last to find a globally agreed way of curbing
13:18
emissions from bunker oil, from ships, chimneys, if you will.
13:22
And they were close to it and they had it.
13:25
Trump sent in his people, the saboteurs in suits to wreck
13:29
that. There is they fear that that
13:31
that could be attempted here at the cop.
13:34
But at the moment Trump is saying that they're not sending
13:37
any delegation of any real worth and they're sticking to that.
13:40
But we shall see. Andrew wants to come in.
13:43
Yeah, just one note. You know, during the first Trump
13:46
administration, the CEO community spoke out and spoke
13:51
out quite vocally about things that they disagreed with this
13:54
with the president, including on climate, including on his views
13:58
about the Paris climate accord and so many other issues.
14:02
And and so to suggest that somehow the silence is somehow
14:05
no different and that that that CE OS never speak out against,
14:10
you know, people in power, I think is actually a a false
14:13
choice. I think we saw it in action
14:16
empirically between 2016 and 2020 repeatedly over and over
14:22
and over again. And it's only now actually given
14:25
some of the steps that this administration has taken against
14:28
businesses, against universities and, and, and against his
14:31
enemies in other ways, that we have now seen some of the
14:36
wealthiest people in the United States who would otherwise raise
14:40
their hand, not raise their hand out of fear, sure, but.
14:43
What we can agree on, Andrew, what we can agree on is that
14:46
they are by self getting on with it.
14:48
You know they are still doing this stuff.
14:50
Some, but I think it's I, I, I mean, I think that there is
14:53
some, there is some of it still going on, but I think the, the
14:56
the path of travel in terms of the ambitions that they had even
15:01
two years ago is just so very different today than it was
15:04
then. Can can you just and I say it's
15:06
unfortunate I. Mean what is actually driving
15:10
Trump, you know, is it is it just America first?
15:14
He thinks, you know, that, that, you know, that there is an
15:17
easier way to prosperity from oil and gas in the short term.
15:21
You know, is it some attempts to sort of thwart China by
15:26
undermining the whole renewable energy, you know, process or is
15:31
it that he he just doesn't understand this stuff?
15:35
I think it's probably all of the above and some, you know, it's
15:38
never black and white. I think it's a piece of all of
15:40
the different components that you just described.
15:43
You know, I think on the election trail when he was, you
15:46
know, making pledges to to, you know, vast parts of America,
15:50
especially in, in towns that had historically coal and other
15:53
kinds of what what might describe as dirty energy and the
15:56
like. Part of his appeal was he was
15:59
saying that he was going to help those people get their jobs
16:02
back. That's that's what he ran on.
16:05
He's somebody who historically has not really believed in
16:08
climate change unto itself that that that actually carbon even
16:12
in his mind necessarily is the is the knob, if you will, that
16:17
is going to change the dynamic over time.
16:20
So I think there's a whole bunch of reasons why, you know, and he
16:23
would put even climate in this sort of category of woke ISM,
16:27
you know, a phrase that you know, has become the the phrase
16:30
of the day in America, but that has sort of an amorphous meaning
16:33
in lots of ways. Let's just come then to the the
16:36
big political development of the day, which is New York and and
16:40
Zara Mandani. Is New York just another country
16:44
or, or, or is there a bigger trend here that might lead to
16:48
something? Look, I think there's real
16:51
questions about capitalism and socialism and that you're seeing
16:54
that play out in New York. And I think it's it's
16:56
representative of affordability crisis that's happening in
16:59
America. I think both parties would agree
17:02
that there's an affordability crisis in America.
17:04
The question is how do you attack that issue of
17:06
affordability. What I think we don't know, and
17:09
it'll be great experiment, is to see what ultimately happens in
17:11
New York and how much of his agenda, which includes things
17:17
that are almost the antithesis for a place that's considered
17:20
the capital of capitalism, whether that will work.
17:23
And that's the experiment. Yeah, I mean, Alex, I mean,
17:28
there are there are fewer Heads of Government going to cop than
17:32
last year, aren't there? But I mean, what, what is the
17:34
sort of, what is the political feeling?
17:36
Do you think you know the the sort of if there was a sort of a
17:38
centre of gravity politically that is moving to the right in
17:44
lots of parts of the world, is that being felt at COP?
17:47
I don't think it is. I mean, the swing of the
17:50
political centre of gravity doesn't quite work like that
17:54
when you've got this extraordinary sort of, as I
17:57
said, democracy of 194 countries where everybody has got to agree
18:02
on anything before anything is agreed at all.
18:05
You can see from what we've been talking about, what Andrews just
18:08
been explaining about the domestic shift.
18:10
I'm in recent elections in in the US.
18:13
Quite plainly, what people are seeing here and what they're
18:15
looking to is China as a leader, as giving leadership in this.
18:20
China has moved its move to address in its NDC nationally
18:25
these national plans that countries are required to come
18:28
up with. It has for the first time moved
18:30
to talking indefinite, quantifiable terms about carbon
18:35
reduction. It's doing more by scale than
18:39
any other country on the planet in terms of rolling out
18:42
renewables. Xi Jinping doesn't come to these
18:45
things. And that's so there's nothing
18:47
new there, but they send, there's almost the next best
18:49
thing in terms of the sort of high command of the
18:51
administration in Beijing. So they're looking at them to to
18:55
to pick up the baton. And here's a slightly weird
18:58
thing about China in terms of its NDC's, its plans to cut
19:02
carbon, its plans to stop, curb its pollution.
19:06
China's quite unusual, the broad brushes that most countries
19:09
promise a lot but don't deliver to that extent.
19:13
China has tended rather to do the opposite, be rather cautious
19:18
in its approach, in its promises, in what it can deliver
19:21
and actually in quite a number of different areas in terms of
19:25
carbon reduction across the industrial piece has under has
19:28
over delivered on these plans. So there's a source of hunch
19:33
that that might happen here. I mean, the Trump effect
19:35
obviously has disrupted things. But then again, we've been here
19:37
before. You know, a few years ago it was
19:40
Madrid, a cop conference, Trump first administration pulling out
19:44
of the Paris Agreement, blah, blah, blah, and high level
19:47
delegations. Nancy Pelosi was giving
19:49
interviews to every local radio station, every local paper on
19:52
the conference, on conference floor to make a point.
19:55
That won't happen in the same way this time around.
19:58
But yeah, the shift is to China. I mean, that's true, isn't it
20:01
Andrew, that the pendulum is not going to generally go Trump's
20:05
way because China and India are are not going to agree
20:10
ultimately because they know it's in their interest to pursue
20:13
a renewables, you know, agenda, not least for domestic economic
20:17
reasons. Well, there's no question.
20:19
And now we get back to the the question about tariffs.
20:23
And, you know, if you live in a tariff world, what that
20:26
ultimately looks like if, if there is this sort of breakdown
20:29
in globalization, what does it mean for the United States to
20:32
even compete with China or for China to compete with the US?
20:37
And if you're implementing all these tariffs around, you know,
20:41
it it, it fundamentally changes the dynamics of competition.
20:44
You know, by the way, back in 19291930, we had tariffs in the
20:49
United States and it reduced global trade by 60% within 12
20:54
months. And when that happened, I think
20:56
there was a real wake up call actually about globalization and
21:00
about what you would actually want in the context of
21:02
competition. Yeah, I mean, I'm glad, I'm glad
21:04
you took us to to your book because I was about to do the
21:06
same thing. I mean, wait, wait, you're
21:09
looking at, you know, the, the circumstances that led to the,
21:13
the crash of 1929, which is, which is probably not really
21:16
widely understood by most people.
21:18
We just kind of, we know there was a crash, but we're not
21:20
really sure exactly why, you know, to what extent are the
21:25
current circumstances similar? What was happening back then?
21:30
Well. Unfortunately, you know, and it
21:32
was not my intent when I started writing this book, I was trying
21:35
to bring people inside the room so they could understand what
21:37
that crisis looked like. The parallels are quite shocking
21:40
because it was all of the same kind of euphoria that we're
21:43
living with today. All of this excitement in the
21:45
marketplace around new technology.
21:47
Back then it was telecommunications and radio and
21:50
automobiles. Today it's AI and this this view
21:53
that it's going to change the world and it probably will
21:55
change the world, but it's bringing in all of this
21:57
investment that is almost indiscriminate to some degree.
22:00
And as a result, it also comes with leverage.
22:03
There's so much, there was so many loans being brought into
22:06
play with AI, but back in the 1920s being brought into play
22:10
because investors were actually taking out extraordinary loans
22:13
to bet on all of the stuff in the stock market both in New
22:16
York and and here in the UK and around the world.
22:18
And so the real question today when we're looking at sort of
22:22
where things are, by the way, this relates actually to some of
22:24
the renewable efforts as well as how much leverage, how much debt
22:28
is there in the system. And the truth is, right this
22:30
moment, I don't think we know so.
22:33
Do you think if we got towards another, well, I mean, you know,
22:36
maybe not a crash, but a mini crash does that, does that, does
22:42
that strangle off the climate agenda in developing countries?
22:47
Well, look. Yes, arguably there's been an
22:49
argument for years now that, you know, we've been living in, you
22:52
know, anytime we have boom times, we're able to afford to
22:55
do things that hopefully move, you know, the human race
23:00
forward. Renewables may be one of those
23:02
things, you know, when you get into a moment of a crash or some
23:06
kind of austerity, investments in things like that seem to
23:10
dissipate. The real question, and this has
23:12
been the big issue at COP for years is can you make renewables
23:17
more economically viable than some of these older, older, you
23:22
know, CARB carbon fuels that we've been living with for
23:27
years. And in some cases we have done
23:28
that, in some cases we haven't. And that's really, I think,
23:31
going to be a huge dynamic going forward.
23:33
Yeah, I mean, Alex, I mean, the the promise of making renewables
23:38
more economically viable than fossil fuels has been greater
23:45
than the delivery, hasn't it, so far?
23:49
Well, it depends which dimension you look at.
23:51
I mean, Cop is the last place that you're going to look to
23:54
affect a, an economically viable downgrade in the prices that
23:59
solar panels costs or the blades for wind turbines and so forth.
24:02
But the market and competition and technology will absolutely
24:06
do that and absolutely is doing that.
24:07
You only have to look at, well, anything you want to choose.
24:10
Let's choose those two examples. The cost of a solar panel, for
24:13
instance, the cost of a blade on a turbine, wind turbine, for
24:16
instance. Look, just go and look at the
24:18
cost of those and there's your answer.
24:20
They're coming down, down, down and dare I say down as against
24:24
oil and gas. I mean, oil and gas is a finite,
24:27
filthy resource. We're going, it is running out.
24:29
You know, certain parts of the British political establishment
24:32
talk about getting North Sea oil and gas out of the North Sea.
24:35
While a lot of it isn't in the North Sea, it's in the northwest
24:38
Atlantic, West of Shetland. It's a long way out there.
24:40
It's a long way down. There's hardly any oil anyway,
24:44
so you're looking at gas. So that's, I just throw that out
24:46
as an example of what is effectively just in resource,
24:50
simple resource terms, forget economics and politics, simple
24:53
resource terms some which is obviously mid long term a sunset
24:57
industry. The exact opposite is happening
24:59
in renewables. And Andrew is right, yeah,
25:01
that's going to be likely impacted in some way should
25:06
there be God forbid some kind of economic crash.
25:11
However, the good news is as those prices have come down and
25:14
that trajectory continues, we would hope there's some
25:17
insulation to that attack. And Andrew, just finally, I
25:20
mean, what would the big risk be that all it's the big
25:23
infrastructure cost that could no longer be financed, You know,
25:26
it's, it's building these things.
25:28
Right. And and this is how, but it
25:29
connects back to energy. So there's a huge infrastructure
25:32
cost right now and a lot, you know, hundreds of billions of
25:35
dollars moving towards building these data centers.
25:37
It's not just the data centers themselves, it's actually the
25:39
energy that's going to power these data centers.
25:41
And so the real question is when you have, you know, large
25:45
language model companies and these tech companies that have
25:47
not become profitable yet effectively making commitments
25:51
to buy things that they actually need cash for, whether they're
25:54
going to be able to make those cash payments in the future.
25:56
And if we get to a point where they can't make those payments
25:59
and they've taken on extraordinary debt and there is
26:01
a crash that actually will set back not just AI, but we'll set
26:06
back, I would argue the the energy complex and some of the
26:10
renewable efforts as well given given how connected those
26:14
markets are. Well, we'll leave it there.
26:16
Andrew Ross Sorkin, thank you very much indeed for joining us,
26:18
Alex Hanlakop. And we'll speak again soon.
26:21
That's the forecast. Bye bye.