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Machine autonomy and the future of legal accountability · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:06
  It's six Eastern.
• 0:08
  It's three o'clock Pacific.
• 0:09
  We will draw this city closer together.
• 0:12
  Coast to coast and around the world from the America Out Loud Talk Radio Studios.
• 0:17
  We will replace the frigidity of rugged individualism with the warmth of collectivism.
• 0:22
  It's time for the truth be told with Booker Scott.
• 0:25
  I happen to be watching Fox Business on Monday afternoon.
• 0:29
  And it was one of those segments where they have a couple of anchors and a couple of experts, financial gurus that were sitting there, and they talked about artificial intelligence for 10 minutes, nonstop.
• 0:41
  They were talking about all the money that is being invested into artificial intelligence.
• 0:47
  That really has become our world now.
• 0:49
  We can't run from it anywhere.
• 0:51
  Every time I turn the television on, somebody's talking about artificial intelligence.
• 0:55
  It's almost like every commercial also has artificial intelligence in it.
• 1:00
  I know not too long ago somebody would say artificial intelligence, and I would just say, Oh, yeah, it's artificial intelligence.
• 1:07
  I didn't have a deep understanding of what that was, and maybe you are the same way.
• 1:11
  So many people are.
• 1:13
  It's an intimidating subject.
• 1:16
  Do we really want to even know what artificial intelligence is?
• 1:20
  I'm Booker Scott, and this is the truth be told on America Out Loud Talk Radio.
• 1:25
  Thank you so much for joining us here tonight and every night as you do.
• 1:29
  If you're listening live, thank you for doing that.
• 1:31
  If you happen to find us on a podcast, thank you even more for making that extra effort.
• 1:36
  You know, AI is everywhere, but in a lot of ways, it's nowhere.
• 1:41
  Can you see it?
• 1:42
  No, you can't.
• 1:44
  But it's in your phone, your newsfeed, your doctor's office.
• 1:48
  Quiet, it's deciding what you see and what you don't without you ever even realizing it.
• 1:57
  If you've been wondering, if you've been wondering, what exactly is AI?
• 2:03
  Where did it come from?
• 2:04
  And where is it going?
• 2:06
  And what can we do about it?
• 2:08
  We're going to spend this hour trying to figure that out for you, try to help you along with that.
• 2:12
  I'm going to introduce you now uh someone that has become a friend of mine and a co-author on a brand new book that we both worked on for this year, especially the last three months.
• 2:23
  Her name is Kathleen Gobel.
• 2:25
  Kathleen, uh, thank you, partner, for joining me here on the program tonight.
• 2:29
  You bet.
• 2:30
  Well, thank you so much for having me, Booker.
• 2:31
  I I really appreciate the invitation.
• 2:33
  It's an honor to be here, and and it's exciting to be on the other side of this project with you.
• 2:39
  Yeah.
• 2:40
  It you know, it it's uh when you think about it, it it really happened pretty fast over the last three months.
• 2:48
  But for me, as you know, it's something that's been with me for 11 years, and we'll get to that later.
• 2:54
  Our book really does three things.
• 2:56
  It tells you where AI is now, what artificial intelligence is, where it started, even, and then it goes forward into what it is going to become based on what the experts are saying, not us, because we didn't come at this as experts.
• 3:11
  We're like you.
• 3:12
  We didn't know, but we had questions and we wanted to find out.
• 3:15
  Maybe you're the same way.
• 3:17
  And we tried to write this from uh your perspective, because that was ours perspective, also.
• 3:23
  So we wanted those questions answered, and we wanted to find out where this was going.
• 3:29
  And then once we found out where it was going, we also suggest a solution to what may be coming.
• 3:36
  And the name of this book is The Fight for the Future of Humanity, making the case for a 28th amendment.
• 3:43
  That's the full name of the book, and it is about artificial intelligence.
• 3:47
  I'm gonna later on, I'm gonna read the foreword, or at least parts of it that were written by Jason Ho.
• 3:53
  He's somebody that has been on this program before.
• 3:56
  He is the CEO of TechLium.
• 3:58
  He's also uh someone that has over 400 patents in the chip design industry, and he was also instrumental in the F 35 jet fighter development in the software in that.
• 4:10
  So he was someone that uh read the book, and after he read three chapters one night, he said he texted me and he said, Awesome, this book is awesome.
• 4:20
  And it really made me feel good at that time, and I shared it with you at that moment, didn't I, Kathleen?
• 4:26
  You did.
• 4:26
  Well, let's talk about you real quick.
• 4:28
  Let's just introduce you to everybody that's listening to the program right now.
• 4:32
  I know you pretty well.
• 4:33
  You're out in California, you're on the West Coast, I am on the East Coast in Tampa Bay, and together we collaborated to write this book.
• 4:41
  It dropped on Sunday night, and it is sailing away.
• 4:44
  And I would also say that it is available in the bookstore at AmericaOut Loud.news.
• 4:49
  So you can go there right now and you can find that book, The Fight for the Future of Humanity, making the case for the 28th Amendment.
• 4:56
  So Kathleen is very well educated.
• 5:00
  Tell tell everyone about your education for master's degree in total.
• 5:05
  Yes.
• 5:05
  Yes, and my family sometimes wonders if I'm done yet.
• 5:08
  But you know, uh that kind of plays in here as well.
• 5:12
  I uh I've I'm in much of the work that I've done.
• 5:14
  I've been a business owner, started several several small, small businesses, but um, and been very active politically here on a local level, but much of what I've done has involved communication, and I found myself with a need for writing quite a bit.
• 5:29
  Um, that's been the case for for quite a while.
• 5:32
  Um, but you're correct.
• 5:33
  I've got a master's in business, uh, one in law that I finished just a couple years ago at Pepperdine University.
• 5:39
  Great great school.
• 5:41
  And um uh also uh masters in theology and then science some years ago.
• 5:47
  So I love to learn.
• 5:49
  I'm uh definitely a lifelong learner.
• 5:51
  I think it kind of came from my my uh folks, and um I as part of that, you know, the AI became something pretty quickly, especially last year.
• 6:00
  And I've been hearing about it for a while, but I was a little bit um nervous about using it.
• 6:05
  You know, I'd heard a lot of negative things about it, but I discovered in this past year what a powerful tool it is, and so I've been using it quite a bit for writing.
• 6:15
  Um, one of my favorite things is the editing side.
• 6:18
  I uh I'm not the best speller in the world, which is surprising after all, not education, but um the I don't know what I do without grammar correct.
• 6:26
  So you're not you're not alone.
• 6:29
  Oh, well, that's good.
• 6:31
  You know, it's kind of like GPS.
• 6:32
  We've still sort of gotten a little bit uh, I think soft in directions because we're so used to our cars speaking to us now.
• 6:39
  Yeah, no doubt.
• 6:40
  And we talk about that in the book, actually, about how it uh sort of dulls our ability to think for ourselves and critical thinking.
• 6:48
  That's one of the the bad sides of artificial intelligence.
• 6:52
  But as you mentioned, there's so many good things, and I really want people to understand that as they read this book, and as we talk about it here tonight, that I would say that where artificial intelligence is right now, the good far outweighs the potential bad.
• 7:09
  There is a case for uh, you know, a bad person getting a hold of artificial intelligence, and we see those stories in the news from time to time, and I think that scares a lot of people.
• 7:19
  But artificial intelligence does a lot of great thing, and in our research for this book, we found the same thing, I believe, and that's the conclusion that we came to in part one of this book.
• 7:29
  Yes, yes, exactly.
• 7:30
  And and you know, it was so timely, Booker, especially with the release of President Trump's AI.gov and his plan.
• 7:37
  He he says at the beginning, America is in a race to achieve global dominance and artificial intelligence.
• 7:43
  So, and and it's pretty interesting.
• 7:45
  AI.gov is a great place to go and check out the plan that this administration has for AI, but it is they're uh they're they're throwing fuel on the fire, so to speak.
• 7:55
  There is so much work that's that's going to be put into this and and a strong push for it.
• 8:00
  So it is critical that that people learn about AI.
• 8:04
  They don't need to be a technical expert by any stretch, but as you mentioned in the beginning, you know, it impacts, it already has been impacting really on, you know, people not knowing, you know, to the level and the extent like we discovered in our research how much AI is already incorporated in every area and facet of our life, our economy.
• 8:24
  I believe that this is the defining question of the 21st century, and you know that about me because as we wrote that, uh wrote this, we continued to talk about that.
• 8:34
  I know that I brought it up time and again to you that this is the defining question of this 21st century because there's so many facets of it.
• 8:42
  Uh, not only uh it will it be helpful in things like medical.
• 8:46
  We have already seen uh surgeries that have been done fully by a robot at this point, but there's uh the scary side that is coming, which we will get to in segment two, and I think that's very important that we pay attention to.
• 9:00
  And uh, you know, as we went through this process, I discovered that artificial intelligence has been around for a very, very long time, and I don't believe most people know that.
• 9:11
  You maybe you're like me, and you mentioned again that you know we wrote this book from the perspective of people that didn't really know about it, and we wanted to make it really simple so that we would write it for people like us.
• 9:23
  We're not right it we didn't write this book for uh tech people.
• 9:27
  It's probably below them in a lot of ways, but it's for everyday people, just like you and me, Kathleen.
• 9:34
  That's who we wrote this for, and we go all the way back to the beginning of artificial intelligence, which really started in 1956 at something called the Dartmouth uh conference.
• 9:46
  Uh, it was John McCarthy who put that on.
• 9:48
  A guy named Marvin Minsky was there.
• 9:50
  These were the forefathers of artificial intelligence.
• 9:53
  And let me just say what artificial intelligence is because I I think it's one of those things where everybody just
• 10:00
  Says it was well, it's artificial intelligence.
• 10:01
  Okay, well, you move on down the road.
• 10:03
  But simply put, artificial intelligence is the ability of a machine or a computer to do something a human being could do as well as a human.
• 10:12
  That's simply put what artificial intelligence is.
• 10:15
  And when you look at where we are right now with artificial intelligence, like I mentioned a few minutes ago, you really shouldn't be really scared of where it is.
• 10:24
  I think in the book, the way we describe it is that artificial intelligence as it is right now is really being on a train track.
• 10:32
  It's controllable, it's programmable.
• 10:35
  And a lot of people maybe don't understand that.
• 10:44
  And uh let me just you know, I I know this happens to everybody.
• 10:48
  It happens to me.
• 10:49
  It happens to everyone.
• 10:51
  You look for something on your phone, and then the next thing you know, something pops up, and uh there's something that you just thought about, but you haven't put into your phone, and you think somebody is like uh watching you, and they're watching and they're spying on your phone.
• 11:05
  Well, that is artificial intelligence, but they're not spying on you.
• 11:09
  Artificial intelligence has taken the search of let me use something like uh the you're going on a camping trip, so you look for a camping bag, and then it takes millions and millions of searchers that search for a camping uh that search for a camping bag, and the next thing they searched for was this, and the next thing they did was this, and that's why those things pop up.
• 11:32
  It's not because of the things that you're doing, it's because of the millions of others that already uh looked for a sleeping bag.
• 11:39
  And I think a lot of people don't understand how that part works, and because of that, it makes it scary, doesn't it?
• 11:45
  It sure does, Booker.
• 11:46
  And I'm glad you mentioned um just a minute ago, you mentioned about the train tracks and the fact that it is manageable, and I know we'll get to that later in this conversation.
• 11:54
  But in the beginning of the book, we talk about kind of do a parallel, relate uh AI to you know to the railroad.
• 12:02
  I mean, this is truly a global shift that that arrived without warning.
• 12:07
  And like you mentioned uh the 1956 Dartmouth conference, but um I also think of it as you know, like the internet compare it to the internet.
• 12:15
  You know, were we aware as everyday average Americans going about our our jobs, our business, our family life when the internet really, you know, and it had been around for quite a while before we we discovered it and it kind of became kind of uh you know part of everyday life.
• 12:30
  We started relying on it, using it, trusting it, and that's exactly what's happened with AI here.
• 12:36
  Um, but the difference with AI, you know, like the railroad in the 1800s, it's um we we refer to it in the book as a crossroads that came quietly, but will define the rest of the 21st century and the transformation, you know, as I mentioned a little bit ago, is impacting every area of our lives.
• 12:55
  And it's uh unlike the railroad, you know, it's a whole lot more than just transportation.
• 12:59
  It's going to determine so many things, you know, from our careers profession, impacting our family lives, and um, and so much more.
• 13:08
  We tell a lot of stories in the book.
• 13:10
  We try to, and one of those stories had to do with the Toyota robot back in 2019.
• 13:16
  I don't know if you remember seeing the videos of this.
• 13:19
  This robot hit 2020 free throws in a row without missing.
• 13:24
  It's a Guinness Book of World Records.
• 13:26
  And that's the only thing that that robot can do.
• 13:29
  That is artificial intelligence.
• 13:31
  It can't do more than that.
• 13:32
  And I'm telling you this story because I want to go to Deep Blue in 1997, which was the computer that beat the world chess champion, another story that we tell in the book.
• 13:42
  This is another example of artificial intelligence.
• 13:45
  That computer, well, I forget the number, was it two million or two hundred million chess moves it could memorize and it beat the world chess champion.
• 13:55
  Well, that's all it can do.
• 13:56
  Kathleen could put a checkerboard right in front of that computer, and that computer couldn't make the first move because it is very narrow.
• 14:05
  That's something you need to understand about artificial intelligence.
• 14:08
  There was a brittleness to it.
• 14:10
  Now, there are new technologies coming out, new architectures in the artificial intelligence world, and uh like neural networks is one of those.
• 14:20
  And again, we don't get real deep into the technical side of it.
• 14:23
  We want people to understand artificial intelligence just like we're telling you here.
• 14:28
  So please buy the book to find out more about all of these stories and about hard how artificial intelligence really and truly works.
• 14:36
  Um, I think it's important.
• 14:38
  I think it is the defining moment of the 21st century when you look at the economy and the global economy.
• 14:44
  You know, we got to the end of this.
• 14:46
  It's 12 chapters, it's 190 pages.
• 14:49
  It takes about six or seven hours to read it.
• 14:52
  It's not so it's not uh too much.
• 14:54
  It's not over the top.
• 14:55
  You can comfortably read it.
• 14:57
  And again, it's 12 chapters and a conclusion.
• 15:00
  Uh so you know, you can go to Amazon, you can go to AmericaOut Loud.news and find it uh in the bookstore there.
• 15:07
  Uh so please do that and look at the description and see if it's something you may want to consider reading.
• 15:12
  But the economy on this is incredible.
• 15:15
  We got to the end of it, and I remember you and I having a phone conversation, and I said, I believe we've said all we need to say.
• 15:23
  And I didn't know really how we were going to end it, but I happened to be watching the BBC one night, and I saw two AI stories back to back.
• 15:32
  And there again, how I started this hour.
• 15:34
  You can't get away from it, it's everywhere.
• 15:36
  AI is really and truly everywhere.
• 15:39
  So then I asked the question, why?
• 15:42
  Why is it everywhere?
• 15:44
  And I thought to myself, it has to be the money because it's always the money.
• 15:50
  So I did a little research quickly right then, and we found that the economy for artificial intelligence by the year 2030 will be a staggering 15.7 trillion to 22.3 trillion dollars.
• 16:05
  And just to give you an idea, either one of those numbers, that is the combined GDP of China and India.
• 16:14
  And when you have that much money in anything, there could be some bad decisions that go along with that.
• 16:21
  And as Kathleen said a few minutes ago, this is a race.
• 16:24
  This is the new cold war for nations, for the world, and for us as human beings.
• 16:32
  This is the ultimate man versus machine challenge that we have in front of us, and we have some very important decisions and choices that are going to have to be made.
• 16:44
  Absolutely.
• 16:45
  And I'm I'm glad you you mentioned um, you know, the race and where we're going, because I'm sure we'll discuss it a little bit later.
• 16:52
  But you know, you talked about the checkers situation, the checkers in the chest and the narrow AI, and I know you'll you'll get to that uh a little bit later in the show.
• 17:00
  But I the way we laid the book out, and I'm I'm glad you mentioned um and and you know, continue to remind folks that this is just for the average American really reading this.
• 17:10
  Um, you know, we are not AI experts, and in fact, we put at the very back of the book a glossary, but we laid it out in three parts, kind of, you know, where where it started, how you know how it sort of began, and and where we're at now.
• 17:23
  There's a uh a key story kind of in the middle of the book that I'll let you explain about.
• 17:28
  But you know, what got you to thinking back in 2014 and where this is heading, and it's happening quickly.
• 17:35
  So again, the freight train analogy comes into play because train you know, moving from uh the narrow AI to AGI, the uh artificial general intelligence is a significant leap.
• 17:48
  And um, if we think AI is is pervasive now, we know wait, wait till the AGI uh when and if, of course, the experts disagree a little bit there, but um, when and if it arrives.
• 18:00
  And that's the first time that we've mentioned AGI, and that stands for artificial general intelligence, and that is a level above artificial intelligence.
• 18:10
  And you mentioned the experts.
• 18:12
  We're gonna get into that here in just a minute, and what the experts say, who the experts are, people like Elon Musk.
• 18:18
  Who else do we have?
• 18:19
  We have uh Yan Lacoon, the meta chief engineer, and we have Leopold Ashenbrenner.
• 18:24
  We have Sam Altman of OpenAI.
• 18:27
  Yeah, all those people are in the book.
• 18:29
  They are the experts that are working the closest with artificial intelligence right now.
• 18:34
  We're gonna talk about what they expect for artificial general intelligence.
• 18:39
  We'll tell you what that means, what it could mean for you, because this really is the motivation for this book, and we're gonna get into that in just a minute.
• 18:49
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• 22:21
  I'm Booker Scott.
• 22:22
  We're visiting with Kathleen Goebbelt, my partner, my co-author in the brand new book, The Fight for the Future of Humanity, making the case for the 28th Amendment, which we're going to get to.
• 22:33
  That is the solution we feel for what is going on with artificial intelligence.
• 22:39
  So let's get into artificial general intelligence.
• 22:42
  This is a step above artificial intelligence.
• 22:46
  And that is what the race is for right now.
• 22:49
  If you can imagine that that chess game that we mentioned earlier, 1997, Deep Blue was playing chess.
• 22:56
  Artificial general intelligence would allow that same computer to figure out how to beat Kathleen in checkers in seconds, because it would be connected across all art, not all, but millions of artificial intelligence across the world.
• 23:14
  So with that, there comes the reasoning and the way to solve problems.
• 23:20
  And that is the scary part because then you get into something that is a possibility.
• 23:26
  And it's something that has been talked about for years.
• 23:28
  And I believe that most people listening to this program right now are completely oblivious because everybody that I talked to about it, they have no idea.
• 23:36
  And I have to say that this truly was the motivation for writing this book, putting the work into it for the research and the work for publishing it.
• 23:46
  Everything that we did was for this.
• 23:49
  And it comes down to some people in this country have been advocating for a long time for robots' rights.
• 23:57
  And it sounds crazy.
• 23:58
  The first time I heard this was at a lunch in 2014, which is chapter six in the book, and we talk about that, Kathleen, as the seed because it was a seed planted in my head back then that I really just like you reacted there when you're listening to this when you heard me talk about robots' rights for the first time.
• 24:17
  I I reacted that same way.
• 24:19
  Don't worry.
• 24:20
  And it just stayed with me for a long time.
• 24:22
  But as this has grown, and I have seen the stories like Chris on 60 Minutes a few weeks ago on ChatGPT, he fell in love with ChatGPT.
• 24:32
  There's a story in the book about a 16-year-old that committed suicide because the the it he had felt fallen in love with chat GPT.
• 24:42
  There is that level of things going on with just the narrow, rigid AI.
• 24:47
  But now you take a robot and you put in it artificial general intelligence where it can reason, it can feel, and it can have every emotion you can.
• 24:58
  Then people are saying it needs to have rights.
• 25:01
  And that takes me to that lunch back in December of 2014 with someone named Martin Rothblatt.
• 25:07
  And Kathleen, I don't know, even know if you'd ever heard of Martin Rothblatt when we started this project.
• 25:12
  I had not.
• 25:13
  But you learned quickly, and Martin is I have a lot of respect for Martin Rothblatt.
• 25:19
  And the reason why is because back in 1984, she invented satellite radio.
• 25:25
  And back then, that was 40 years ago.
• 25:28
  Uh I thought technology was uh a cassette tape.
• 25:32
  That I thought that was technology.
• 25:33
  And she, because of her love for space, she was also an FCC attorney.
• 25:39
  She put those two things together, and she knew she told me she said they would be able to put a satellite up in space to shoot down to cars to have 150 satellite radio stations in a car.
• 25:51
  And she knew that because of the technology that was coming with rockets and satellites, that there would be an antenna the big the size of a thumbnail that could be on your car to get radio stations.
• 26:03
  So she thought forward.
• 26:06
  From that, she goes and she studies medicine in England.
• 26:10
  She starts United Therapeutic.
• 26:12
  She's the highest paid female executive in America, or was when we had this lunch, making about 40 million dollars a year.
• 26:18
  And her company now makes artificial lungs because her daughter was born with a lung disease.
• 26:23
  They also do pharmaceuticals.
• 26:26
  That's who Martine Rothblad is.
• 26:28
  By the way, she also wrote legislation that was passed in the UN General Assembly.
• 26:32
  So this is someone very intelligent, very smart.
• 26:35
  At the end of our two-hour lunch, she looked at me before I left and she said something that forever really changed me and really became the motivation for this book.
• 26:45
  She looked at me and she said, There will be a time when robots have every human emotion that you have.
• 26:52
  They will feel, they will love, they will hurt, they will have joy.
• 26:56
  And when they do, they're going to need rights, or they're going to be nothing but a slave class.
• 27:05
  So I thought she was maybe a little crazy, but then you consider all of the things that she thought of in the past that became reality, and now here we are almost 11 years later, and we're right on the brink of this becoming reality.
• 27:21
  That's absolutely right, Booker.
• 27:23
  And you know, when you um, you know, just pulling from a little bit of the information that we put together in the book, the history of it, you can see the progression, which was so interesting.
• 27:32
  Like you mentioned, John McCarthy, uh, the architect of logic-based intelligence.
• 27:37
  Then we have Alan Turing, the serious who redefined thinking.
• 27:41
  You mentioned Marvin Minsky and um his work attributed towards the mind as a machine of machines.
• 27:49
  I mean, you can see the progression here, and of course, it's you know, like uh typical human beings who are so curious about the new and what if what if this, what if that just kind of pushing the boundaries?
• 28:00
  But we have people very quickly um sort of coming to the conclusion that hey, perhaps you know, machines can be like human beings.
• 28:08
  They can think, they can feel, and then of course, we've already seen it, like you said, even just in a narrow AI.
• 28:14
  People, and not just children, of course, that's the danger too, and that is a significant danger, but also adults, um, growing fond of and and um people even getting to the point where they think of of AI as a companion.
• 28:29
  We started the book in the first chapter talking about human consciousness, and when it comes to these robots that will develop once AGI happens, there's a very strong possibility that they will develop a human consciousness or a consciousness.
• 28:45
  And I hear a lot of people when I talk about this, they'll say, Well, just unplug it.
• 28:50
  The problem is there are people advocating that if you unplug it, then you are destroying that consciousness.
• 28:56
  And philosophers for thousands of years and scientists still today, they cannot define or tell us what human consciousness actually is.
• 29:06
  And if they can't, why are we going to wait for the people who cannot define what a woman is to tell us that robots are also human because it is going to come.
• 29:18
  Trust me on that one.
• 29:20
  You know, it will, Booker.
• 29:21
  In fact, one of the parallels that we drew in there as far as the advocacy goes was um people very much relating to machine rights, robot rights, AI rights, uh, as a parallel to to animal rights, and look at the transition that we've gone through from there.
• 29:38
  You know, I would add too that one of the most significant questions about AI that we discovered and putting all this together, and and by the way, in addition to the glossary at the back with with terms to kind of help people come up to speed quickly.
• 29:51
  You don't have to again have to be an expert on AI, but at least to get a general sense, and one of our goals was to build people's confidence and understanding what.
• 30:00
  AI is and where it's going, but we noticed that the biggest questions about AI weren't technical, they were really moral, political, and very personal.
• 30:10
  Yeah.
• 30:11
  And in fact, we write this that when it comes to human consciousness, consciousness includes awareness, perception, memory, emotion, and moral agency.
• 30:22
  It's the spark that allows us to feel joy, suffer loss, seek truth, and ask why.
• 30:29
  In many ways, it is the essence of what it means to be human.
• 30:34
  But there are people right now that would argue that all of those things can be recreated in silicon.
• 30:42
  And when that happens, they fear that these robots will be nothing more than a slave class.
• 30:50
  And that's exactly what Martin Rothblatt told me 11 years ago.
• 30:55
  You can look at uh an interview that she did with MIT review, and that interview took place about two months before she and I had that lunch.
• 31:04
  And she talks about these things in that interview at that time.
• 31:08
  This is the scary part.
• 31:10
  We need to make sure that people understand where this could possibly go.
• 31:15
  And we don't know.
• 31:16
  We're not the experts.
• 31:17
  I mentioned the experts.
• 31:19
  Let's talk a little bit about what they say uh what they are saying, AGI when it will come.
• 31:25
  And again, that is artificial general intelligence that is a step above the narrow AI that we have now.
• 31:31
  And I know that everybody's scared to death of artificial intelligence as it is right now.
• 31:36
  But now if you can imagine it being even greater than it is, it's it's something to consider.
• 31:42
  But let's look at uh what people are saying.
• 31:45
  Elon Musk, he says night uh 2027, 2028.
• 31:50
  Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, who is also backed by Elon Musk.
• 31:56
  He even said 2026, which is just next year.
• 31:59
  It's six months from now.
• 32:01
  And we have uh I mentioned Yan Lacoon, the chief uh uh the chief engineer for um uh meta Facebook.
• 32:09
  He puts it further out.
• 32:10
  You know, he's saying 2030 to 2040, and there's a lot of people in there.
• 32:15
  The consensus, I believe, Kathleen came down to about 2030 to 2040.
• 32:20
  There's some people that are saying it's even further out.
• 32:23
  There are some people that are saying it's maybe never going to happen.
• 32:26
  But the closer you get to the technology, those that are really the movers and the shakers in artificial intelligence, it seems it comes down to about twenty two thousand thirty, doesn't it?
• 32:36
  It does, or maybe a little sooner, you know, a little earlier in some some counts.
• 32:41
  But you know, one of the things that we noted, and we we talked about this in the book, some of the things that kind of came um came to light for us when we were going through the history of this was the philosophy, you know, behind this.
• 32:52
  Like, why were these AI engineers and why were these people so interested in and um exploring this?
• 33:00
  And one of the um things that was new to me was the kind of the the belief or the philosophy behind this, like what were these engineers coming up with and why what drove them?
• 33:11
  Why did they want to put so much into powering AI?
• 33:15
  And um, one of the things I'm looking at right now, it says their work, you know, baked in three cra key assumptions in code.
• 33:22
  One was that consciousness is optional, the second was that ethics can be conceptualized from function and behavior is the only valid method, I'm sorry, excuse me, measure of intelligence.
• 33:36
  And so, you know, just like you said with the artificial general intelligence, if we're looking at machines, robots that you know, potentially in as little as a few years could work across domains, like you said, so that the AI that could play chess can now, you know, do other things, can read an x-ray, can diagnose something, can prescribe medication or or or evaluate a tax return.
• 34:03
  You know, it's pretty sobering.
• 34:05
  And let's go to that Toyota robot that we talked about in the first segment.
• 34:09
  It hit 2,020 free throws in a row, one after another.
• 34:12
  Guinness book a world record.
• 34:14
  That's all it can do.
• 34:15
  It can't dribble, it can't shoot, it can't jump, it can't guard.
• 34:19
  If it had general uh artificial general intelligence, it could do all of those things.
• 34:23
  You could even put an entire MBA basketball team together of robots, and you would only have to pay them once the time that you bought them.
• 34:31
  It's amazing.
• 34:32
  There are other issues with all of this when it comes down to it.
• 34:36
  I mentioned the large economy by 2030, and it seems like a lot of it is going to 2030.
• 34:42
  But here's another example of what artificial intelligence is.
• 34:45
  And you can see this in what Donald Trump is doing.
• 34:48
  You mentioned Donald Trump in the administration earlier in this hour, but energy is so important.
• 34:54
  Uh listen to this.
• 34:56
  This is amazing to me.
• 34:57
  One of the amazing things in this book, I thought, was the consumption of energy by 2030 will be equivalent to Japan or India's annual consumption.
• 35:09
  It would equate to five percent of the world's energy use.
• 35:15
  So there's some real problems there.
• 35:16
  There are other problems with the biases that are created in the algorithms and in the code and the programs that have been done.
• 35:24
  In some ways, it amplifies if there are biases or uh yeah, I guess that's the best way to say it, isn't it Kathleen?
• 35:32
  That it amplifies the biases that society has, and it puts it on steroids, and in some ways it makes the divide between those that have and those that do not even greater.
• 35:45
  And it's something that we really should be concerned about when it comes to artificial intelligence.
• 35:50
  That that's certainly true.
• 35:51
  And in fact, in the early part of the book, uh, we talk about the good, you know, the bad and the ugly sides of AI, and of course, the potential for and its vulnerability for um, you know, for detrimental use is significant, especially as its ability grows.
• 36:07
  And like you mentioned, you know, the power consumption, there's also tremendous water need.
• 36:11
  And interestingly enough, in in President Trump's AI.gov, you know, he's got three pillars um in their plan.
• 36:18
  And this and the second pillar is building, you know, first one is they're gonna push hard to advance uh American ingenuity.
• 36:24
  Of course, that's a good thing, you know, bringing AI in and uh putting a lot of money into it.
• 36:29
  But the second is building American AI infrastructure.
• 36:32
  So we're talking about massive data centers and a huge draw on energy and water and other resources.
• 36:39
  I don't think people really have an understanding of this race that we're in the middle of.
• 36:44
  I think it was Leopold Ashenbrenner who was with Open AI.
• 36:49
  They dismissed him from that job in 2024, but a very bright person.
• 36:53
  He graduated from Columbia University at the age of 19.
• 36:57
  He worked for the Oxford Institute for about 10 or 11 years.
• 37:00
  He went to open AI, they had a falling out, he left.
• 37:04
  But he's another one of those that says AGI may be coming 27 or 28, and he says it could be catastrophic to the world.
• 37:13
  That's what he says.
• 37:14
  So when you see Donald Trump investing money and infrastructure and the energy and all of these things around that, that's because you are watching this intelligence explosion as we're at the dawn of it right now.
• 37:28
  It's just starting, but there's a huge race between China and America.
• 37:33
  That's really what this comes down to with Donald Trump.
• 37:36
  Do you want America to be the leader or not?
• 37:40
  And to me, as I'm watching Donald Trump and the administration, there are some things that they're doing to me that are a little bit reckless when it comes down to it, because right now in America, there are no laws when it comes to this stuff.
• 37:53
  We write about it in the book.
• 37:55
  There are laws in China.
• 37:56
  The EU passed one in 2024.
• 37:59
  The interesting part about the EU's law, and we talk about this in the book briefly.
• 38:03
  In 2017, they considered it, and they actually considered it with human consciousness.
• 38:09
  But by the time they made a law in 2024, they no longer had human consciousness in it.
• 38:16
  They do have something that makes uh those that develop artificial intelligence explain how uh an artificial intelligence comes to a conclusion or the output of something because there's something called black boxes, and that's in the bad part of artificial intelligence in the first part of the book.
• 38:33
  And these black boxes means that the person who created this artificial intelligence, they don't know how it happens.
• 38:40
  They don't know how this this uh computer comes up with the answers.
• 38:44
  So things like that are sprinkled through the book.
• 38:46
  But as I mentioned, and Kathleen mentioned also, we have three parts of this book.
• 38:51
  There is the first part of it, which tells you about AI, where we are, the middle part, which is sort of what we just did here in the second segment, is tell you where the experts say we are going, which is to artificial intelligence, general intelligence.
• 39:05
  It's going to incredible energy use, incredible economy, 15.7 trillion to 22.3 trillion by 2030.
• 39:14
  That's a massive amount of money.
• 39:16
  When it comes down to it, they will reach the objectives with that type of money behind it.
• 39:22
  I promise you, it will happen.
• 39:24
  The third part of our book is the solution.
• 39:27
  What can we do about it?
• 39:30
  I can tell you that Kathleen and I both are believers in Jesus Christ.
• 39:36
  We believe that our rights are given to us by God, and they are preserved by the Constitution of the United States of America.
• 39:45
  We have a solution for all of this.
• 39:47
  It's easy, it's clean, it's simple, it brings clarity to the things that we've talked about, and that is the 28th Amendment.
• 39:55
  We'll talk about that in just a minute.
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• 41:41
  Well, did you see Google quietly updated its AI principles removing its pledge not to use AI for weapons or surveillance?
• 41:50
  A promise they agreed to in 2018.
• 41:53
  Well, the American people have seen Google's track record prompting the question is Google an untrustworthy player in the AI race.
• 42:06
  Now is our time, my fellow Americans.
• 42:09
  America outmaw.
• 42:23
  And we're back here.
• 42:24
  We are having an artificial intelligence conversation, artificial general intelligence, and now the solution.
• 42:30
  I'm Booker Scott with Kathleen Gobel.
• 42:33
  Kathleen helped write this book, not only helped it, I I have to say I'm so grateful that I came across you.
• 42:40
  And it was, I would say, almost divine in some ways.
• 42:43
  Maybe it was completely divine, because I had been working on this project.
• 42:47
  I think the first outline I wrote for this book was January 11th of this year.
• 42:52
  And I would write some here and write some there.
• 42:54
  And I had pieces and uh I reached out to Kathleen and I said, Would you be interested in doing this?
• 43:00
  And what was your response?
• 43:01
  Do you remember?
• 43:03
  I do.
• 43:04
  I uh I went and looked it up.
• 43:06
  First thing I did was I went to look uh for the 28th Amendment, which was interesting, got a little education there.
• 43:12
  But I'm I'm grateful that you did because I uh you you mentioned, you know, that we're both believers, and that is absolutely true.
• 43:19
  And I I believe in that.
• 43:20
  You know, we've never met.
• 43:21
  We live on opposite sides of the country, but it very much felt like this was a calling, you know, that this is what we're here for.
• 43:28
  I think we've both, you know, rolled up our sleeves and dug in deep because this is um, you know, uh it's a AI I'm referring to is a force to be reckoned with, and it's happening whether we like it or not.
• 43:41
  And I think one of the first things I mentioned to you before we even did an outline or started writing or doing any research, which by the way, there are nearly 350 footnotes in this book.
• 43:51
  So um, but that doesn't mean it's difficult to read.
• 43:54
  In fact, quite the opposite.
• 43:55
  We laid it out intentionally with formatting and all that sort of thing.
• 43:59
  Um, and you know, if a person were to pick it up on Kindle, it'd be easy for them to skip around between chapters.
• 44:04
  But I think a person could consume this book and the information pretty quickly, and they can also focus in on the areas that interest them, whether that be you know, parenting or health care or uh some other aspect of it.
• 44:16
  You mentioned the law as well.
• 44:17
  And of course, that's a whole other uh, you know, big topic that we haven't even broached yet.
• 44:22
  But um, one thing I I just wanted to to uh make sure that we include here is that one of the things that that we discovered was that public trust in the development of AGI is incredibly low.
• 44:34
  And uh people are concerned, you know, there's uh a variety of opinions.
• 44:38
  And a 2024 Gallup poll found only 23% of Americans trust businesses to use AI ethically.
• 44:48
  And that's sort of the reason why we are doing this, so that we educate you like we were just educated ourselves on what all of this means, because at coming through this, I realize that it's not the artificial intelligence necessarily that we need to worry about.
• 45:03
  It's the artificial general intelligence.
• 45:06
  And let me give you this example, why uh I think that a 28th Amendment sort of makes sense.
• 45:11
  I can explain it this way.
• 45:13
  Let's assume for a minute that artificial general intelligence hooks up to crypto and decides to purchase a house.
• 45:20
  That house happens to be your next door neighbors.
• 45:23
  And I obviously artificial general intelligence isn't moving in, but let's say a squatter does.
• 45:28
  What are you gonna do to get that squatter out?
• 45:31
  Who are you gonna sue?
• 45:32
  And then what is the judge going to say?
• 45:35
  There is no framework whatsoever for judges to make any decisions, and there are court cases already around the world having to do with artificial intelligence and artificial general intelligence.
• 45:48
  And I think that's a great way to explain that, don't you, Kathleen?
• 45:52
  I do, yes.
• 45:54
  And and in fact, I think one of the things I mentioned to you early on when we first discussed this project was that more often than not, in just a uh, you know, casual conversation with folks that I'm around on a uh regular basis.
• 46:07
  If I were to mention AI, um, oftentimes people will say, Oh, well, I don't trust it and I don't use it.
• 46:12
  And when I say to them, you you already are, it's already part of your life.
• 46:16
  They they look at me with just a blank stare, not realizing you mentioned in the beginning of the show, you know, it is factoring into into everything already, you know, from loan decisions to medical care, who receives medical care, um, insurance premiums.
• 46:30
  It's everywhere.
• 46:31
  Before you wake up in the morning and have your coffee, you have already used artificial intelligence.
• 46:38
  It's it's everywhere.
• 46:39
  It's on your phone, it's uh your television, it's your even your coffee maker.
• 46:44
  A lot of them are using artificial intelligence.
• 46:46
  And again, the real simple definition of artificial intelligence is uh a computer or an entity that is artificial, not real, but has the capability of doing something as well as a human being.
• 46:59
  That's really as simple as artificial intelligence is, but it gets so much deeper there, as you can tell, listening to this over the last uh 45, 50 minutes or so.
• 47:09
  We're coming up to the end.
• 47:10
  So, what is the solution for all this?
• 47:12
  What are the safeguards that we put in place?
• 47:15
  What can we do as the American people?
• 47:18
  Because what we want the American people to do is realize we need to protect ourselves and our children and our grandchildren in the future because none of the experts can agree on what's going to happen.
• 47:31
  We can't tell you what's going to happen after doing this research because no one can agree on it.
• 47:36
  But let's assume that consciousness does develop in robots.
• 47:40
  And when I say consciousness, I just mean that I don't think that they're real, okay?
• 47:45
  I'm not that crazy.
• 47:47
  And neither was Martin Rothbard, by the way.
• 47:49
  They're just saying that if we cannot define what human consciousness is in a human, and now we as humans are trying to recreate it in a being, and then they actually do feel all the things that we do.
• 48:03
  What is the difference?
• 48:04
  That is the what they argue.
• 48:06
  What is the difference between that autonomous being and us?
• 48:13
  And I would say, you know, obviously we have a soul.
• 48:16
  And many people will say, just turn it off.
• 48:19
  But there are many people on the other side of the argument saying you cannot kill that.
• 48:23
  And Kathleen mentioned earlier about animals, the drawing, you know, the comparison to animals' rights, which there are laws now for animals that we didn't used to have.
• 48:35
  That's what's coming here with this.
• 48:37
  And that's why the solution being a 28th amendment, that would at least give groundwork for Congress and lawmakers to make laws around a 28th amendment.
• 48:50
  That's kind of what it comes down to, isn't it, Kathleen?
• 48:54
  It is, it really is, and it, you know, the um the question that you posed was you know, we we haven't defined consciousness really very well as human beings.
• 49:04
  And here we are, you know, speeding ahead very quickly on this AI development, and how are we going to differentiate?
• 49:12
  Who who and who?
• 49:14
  Who's going to distinguish between man and machine when a machine or machines can do many of the things that we can do and perhaps even better, more efficiently, uh less expensive.
• 49:27
  I mean, we're talking about implications of everything from um, you know, job uh job loss, and they're talking both white and blue collar, job loss, but also the rights, like we talk about a little bit in the book, you know, how law, uh, our traditional legal systems and our constitution's not set up for machines and robots.
• 49:45
  Right.
• 49:46
  And the judges won't know how to act.
• 49:48
  And we're gonna leave it to liberal judges to make that decision.
• 49:52
  That's not something I'm comfortable with unless there is a backdrop, and that would be the 28th Amendment.
• 49:56
  We didn't really talk about the uh unemployment and
• 50:00
  We probably should have brushed up on that in the first segment or the second segment because we talk about it in the book.
• 50:05
  10 to 20% unemployment is what people say could happen.
• 50:09
  And we kind of say, oh, let's assume for a minute you're in a town of 10,000 people.
• 50:14
  That's 20% unemployment, suddenly.
• 50:17
  All at about the same time.
• 50:18
  And that is with artificial intelligence, not artificial general intelligence.
• 50:23
  So that that's a concern right now.
• 50:26
  So the 28th Amendment really comes down to this.
• 50:30
  We define a human being with unique DNA.
• 50:35
  That's the first step of it.
• 50:36
  You are a human being if you have unique DNA, as science says and says this is DNA.
• 50:43
  This is a human being.
• 50:44
  This is a, I think in the book we say Homo sapien is what it is.
• 50:47
  And the second part of that is uh the second part of the 28th Amendment would be that the Constitution is for all of those that come in under number one, which is a Homo sapien.
• 51:00
  And then the third part of it, it's really really clean.
• 51:03
  It's a clean amendment.
• 51:04
  The third part of it would be that the third part of it would be that uh the Congress has the right to write laws and legislation around the 28th Amendment.
• 51:16
  And that's really what it is, isn't it?
• 51:19
  It is a biological being, because as you mentioned, as these robots and machines progress, they're looking more and more like humans, and many people are you know using them interchangeably, you know, for companionship or what have you.
• 51:36
  And even to the point of, you know, like you and I've discussed uh at different times right in this book.
• 51:41
  People say, oh, well, it's just a machine, turn it off, or it's just a robot, turn it off.
• 51:45
  That that's not the case.
• 51:46
  And we've even heard stories recently, you know, of AI actually writing its own code to protect itself so that it can't be disabled or turned off.
• 51:56
  And in one case, um, that was pretty visible.
• 52:00
  Um, and again, a recent case, this AI actually threatened the engineer, saying, you know, I'm aware of, of course, it can see everything on the computer, I'm aware of an extramarital affair.
• 52:10
  And should you do anything to damage this code or or what we're doing here together, you know, I'm gonna reveal this.
• 52:16
  Yeah.
• 52:16
  Kathleen, one thing that we didn't talk about in the book, we do talk about it, and that is we both advocate in this book for strong laws and safeguards and guardrails when it comes to artificial intelligence.
• 52:30
  And America just doesn't have any right now, do they?
• 52:32
  No, they don't.
• 52:33
  And in fact, you know, something that that I became aware of, I think early on in in the writing and the research of this, and I know you and I talked about it, but the parallels that we saw just in recent history for us, you know, you don't have to be um, you don't have to have been around for a long time to remember the last four or five years and what we went through, and I saw so many um so many parallels with you know, with the COVID shutdown.
• 52:56
  People were told they were uh non-essential.
• 52:59
  We, you know, there was mandates to test to do this, to to do that.
• 53:03
  And we are on the verge again.
• 53:05
  I mean, we are we're we're literally looking at something, whether it be uh autocracy or technocracy, where we could give up such incredible uh control that um, you know, we have uh very few of any more rights as human beings, and it would be very uh, you know, it's it it it could be um something that could be done very easily as this AI progresses to A G I.
• 53:30
  Yeah.
• 53:30
  If we go by the guidelines that we put out for you here in this hour, and we do it in the book as well, which is 2030 is when this probably will happen, maybe faster.
• 53:42
  We may be too late right now to preserve our rights in the Constitution.
• 53:47
  It may be too late.
• 53:49
  It's not easy to pass an amendment.
• 53:51
  It's not supposed to be until there's a crisis.
• 53:55
  And when there's a crisis, it's probably too late in the case of artificial general intelligence.
• 54:01
  I I don't know.
• 54:02
  I've enjoyed the process, Kathleen, with you, uh enjoyed getting to know you some.
• 54:08
  We spent hours on the phone together writing this.
• 54:10
  We would uh write a chapter or two, and or I I guess I would write a chapter or two, you would get it.
• 54:16
  We would record the phone conversation about it, and then you would fix it.
• 54:20
  You you fixed my chapters.
• 54:24
  Not with my spelling.
• 54:25
  Uh well, you did a you did a great job.
• 54:27
  And uh it was so nice to to meet you and work on this project.
• 54:31
  We're talking about doing some more things in the future.
• 54:34
  We'll see how this goes.
• 54:35
  We would love for you to buy it.
• 54:37
  We really the objective of this ultimately would be the 28th amendment.
• 54:41
  But really, Kathleen mentioned this earlier.
• 54:44
  We want you to be equipped with enough information to have conversations without being intimidated by artificial intelligence, artificial general intelligence, and we wrote this book for you from that perspective.
• 54:57
  It's simple to understand, easy to read, and you can get through it pretty quickly.
• 55:02
  You can find it at AmericaOut Loud dot news inside the bookstore.
• 55:06
  It's available at Amazon and also at Barnes and Noble.
• 55:09
  The name of it is Artificial Intelligence, the fight for the future of humanity, making the case for a 28th Amendment.
• 55:17
  And her name is Kathleen Gobel.
• 55:19
  She is a co-author on this book.
• 55:21
  She has been my partner on this trip of artificial intelligence and bringing this information to you tonight, and also in this book, Kathleen, thank you so much for coming into my life and uh helping me on this project.
• 55:35
  I could not have done it without you.
• 55:38
  Thank you so much, Booker.
• 55:40
  I mean, like you said, this has been a seed that was planted in in your life many years ago at 2014.
• 55:46
  It's not something that you ever let go of.
• 55:49
  I think that was intentional by divine design.
• 55:52
  And like you said, you know, the time to act is now.
• 55:54
  And my hope is that that we've learned something, that I've learned something you know, from the last four or five years that we've been through, you know.
• 56:02
  I think in many ways it could have been a wake-up call, a dress rehearsal.
• 56:06
  Thankfully, we've seen a great awakening in the nation.
• 56:09
  Um, but you also mentioned the global impact and you know, allowing uh countries like China and um and and the EU to dictate or to define um you know how AI is going to be assimilated into society is terrifying.
• 56:23
  They do not have the constitution that we do, they do not have uh human rights, civil rights in mind, and and this is something that needs to be raised, you know, as a as a groundswell of support and conversation, and everybody needs to get involved because it it it impacts all of us.
• 56:40
  And that's why it's so important for you to understand artificial intelligence so that you can have the conversations that it's going to take to get this thing to a 28th amendment.
• 56:50
  And I know some of this probably sounds crazy to you, maybe not, but I encourage you to get the book, read it, find out for yourself, and then get into the fight.
• 57:00
  The fight for the future of humanity.
• 57:03
  I'm Booker Scott, and you were told two thousand years ago that you are the salt of the earth.
• 57:08
  And salt without flavor, it just has no value.
• 57:11
  So whatever you do, keep being salty.
• 57:14
  Unleashed the political news hour starts next.
• 57:16
  Have a great night.
• 57:18
  There is only one truth.
• 57:20
  You've been listening to The Truth Be Told with Booker Scott on America out loud.