Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to the gorgeous Luke Molloy & Dylan Rees about their choice of Mindwarp (4/4)

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Talks to the gorgeous Luke Molloy & Dylan Rees about their choice of Mindwarp (4/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:22
None. A hamster with a blunt penknife
0:35
for doing quicker. Welcome back to A Hamster with a
0:41
Blunt Penknife, a Doctor Who commentary podcast, and we're
0:44
here to witness the temporary death of Perry.
0:50
And I am of course joined by Joe Ford, host of the podcast Say
0:53
Hello Joe. Hello there.
0:55
And Luke Malloy, who's might as well be the host of the podcast.
0:59
We're all always here. Hello, Luke.
1:01
How are you? You killed Joe.
1:07
I'm excited. This is the big one.
1:10
This is basically a finale, isn't it?
1:12
But halfway through the season? Yeah, a time.
1:15
Goes have no right to order Luke or anyone else's death.
1:19
I have every intention of finding out what it is.
1:24
Thank you. That was beautiful.
1:27
It's exciting stuff. You know the the stakes are
1:29
raised. The production values are sort
1:32
of raised. Did you hear Philip Martin tell
1:34
the story about how J&T came with though?
1:36
He's been he signed the contract to do the scripts, but nothing's
1:39
written yet. He comes up after the dinner and
1:42
says, come here, all right, you know, away from everyone else,
1:45
so this could go anywhere. It's J&T after all, and Philip
1:48
Martin is reluctantly pulled into a shadowy corner and he
1:52
just whispers in his ear. But quite seductively, Perry has
1:57
got to die. And he goes.
2:02
And then he said he was told explicitly not to say anything
2:05
to Nicola Bryan, and he felt a bit like an executioner.
2:09
Every time he was talking to her, he was going maybe I could
2:11
grotta or maybe like. I think there's the odd
2:15
companion you can kill. You could kill Terlo.
2:18
You can Addrick. You can.
2:19
You can kill Addrick. You can kill Adam as he count,
2:25
but you can't kill Perry. You can't kill Perry.
2:29
I prefer to think that she used it rather than the alternative.
2:32
I think. I think they just did that.
2:34
So you have to make it look, you know, let's just fake up this
2:37
bit of well. Apparently there was a big there
2:39
was a big uproar, but with some of the kids that were too upset
2:42
about Perry dying, so. It's it's Doctor Who.
2:44
I don't think you should. You should kill off the
2:46
companions. And after this story
2:49
specifically where it would basically be the Doctor's fault
2:53
and not just the fault of he was he was there and he didn't save
2:57
her, but like he's literally placed her in that position to
3:00
die not. Not if his, not if his head's
3:02
been fiddled with or it's the Matrix line.
3:05
Well, if it's not the matrix line, but it doesn't.
3:07
Think it's If they haven't pulled him out of time at the
3:10
point that they did, he would have saved her anyway.
3:12
So they're responsible. But then.
3:18
But then we don't know what we're watching doing.
3:20
What is especially troubling about this is this is the
3:23
companion that has been lusted after, tortured and generally
3:27
mystery in an appalling way. I think secretly she welcomed
3:31
death. So to make her the.
3:34
Climax of her. Doctor Who adventure to be her
3:37
death in the most horrific way imaginable.
3:40
Losing, you know, any semblance of who she is.
3:43
I mean, that almost feels like a fitting end to Perry.
3:46
Yeah. When you can't think of just
3:49
like one may like highlight she might have had on board the
3:53
travels, it's get it's. Quite nonsense.
3:56
I can think of a lot of highlights for Perry.
3:58
When she met, No, I don't mean as a character.
4:01
I mean like sorry. I mean as sort of just happiness
4:06
and joy. Did.
4:06
She is there. Is there a moment like when you
4:09
can't think of one that's quite bad?
4:11
The thing where he puts his arm around her at the end of the two
4:14
doctors and says he's again on a veggie diet.
4:16
Yeah, she has. She has a good time with Peter
4:19
Davison for about an episode of Planet of Fire.
4:21
And then it's all downhill from there.
4:24
Yeah, yeah, pretty much. But.
4:26
Speak Speaking of it all, being downhill from there.
4:28
Shall we jump into the episode? Oh.
4:33
I think he wants to go to bed, you know?
4:35
Come on, let's get. It I'm an hour ahead of you
4:37
guys. I'm sorry.
4:39
You're the one who kept us waiting, all right?
4:41
I know. I'm so sorry.
4:42
I'm so sorry. Well, someone count as in then.
4:46
5 4331. But The thing is, I don't think
4:52
you even need to know in advance Perry is going to die in this
4:57
episode to feel that there is something very uneasy going on
5:01
here and that this isn't going to end well.
5:03
I think it's there in the music, which is very edgy and just the
5:08
way this builds and builds and builds to that ending.
5:12
I agree. I agree.
5:13
I think, I think it all feels off from the beginning.
5:16
So I think you know something's going to happen, but you don't
5:20
necessarily assume it's going to happen to Perry.
5:22
I think Ron Jones and I don't often say this deserves a lot of
5:26
the credit, though, for creating that tangible sense of sort of
5:29
dread. As you said, he's learnt from
5:31
his other mistakes and his direction does get better and
5:34
better, I think, yeah, yeah. He's he did Francis then, didn't
5:37
he? And he did Varos and then he did
5:39
this. So I I just think he sort of got
5:41
better with every. And I think, I think Frontiers
5:45
has a lot of the same DNA as in terms of the style of directing
5:49
as Vengeance and this. And he's just learning.
5:52
So he's learning about the lighting.
5:53
He's learning not to shoot the Tractators.
5:56
So he doesn't shoot the rack in one way because he's he's
5:58
already shot the the they tracked haters in another and
6:01
those how silly they look. So it's it's a learning curve
6:04
for him. And he's he's the one director
6:07
because think about dark vengers and viruses that just learns to
6:10
turn the fucking lights down. Is he still with us?
6:13
Ron Jones. I don't think so.
6:16
By all accounts, a very affable man.
6:19
Yeah, I'm trying. I'm just having a quick look on
6:21
the Internet. I look defined, but like with
6:25
those three stories, with Frontiers, with vengers of Virus
6:28
and Mindwarm, I think you've got three of the more memorable
6:32
stories in Eric Saywood's time there.
6:36
Yeah, that's true. He didn't do a lot, you know.
6:39
He died in 1995, but he hasn't got many credits on IMDb, Doctor
6:43
Who, JB and a couple of things I've never heard of.
6:47
And the production managed some of Bergerac as well.
6:50
But no, he just did not. Do some of this was the best
6:52
work he did then. Maybe.
6:55
I think this episode might be the best instalment that he
6:58
directed. Yeah, I would say so.
7:01
I would say so. I think, yeah.
7:05
I. Mean I say Varos is pretty
7:07
strong. Varos is great, but I think the
7:09
script of Varos is stronger than this, yeah.
7:11
Yeah, yeah. And.
7:13
Cut it. Now and you've got a doctor
7:16
that's actually being a hero. My God, it's got the best line
7:19
ever, isn't it? It's like the three of us at the
7:21
end where the TV's go off and it's like, well, what we're
7:24
going to do now, I don't know. It's like the Wi-Fi family, but.
7:29
Actually, he's. Just gonna have to talk to each
7:31
other. What?
7:35
I feel from this point on now, Colin is Colin the safe Doctor
7:39
is the normal safe Doctor. Well, no, that's.
7:41
Why? I don't think he is.
7:43
It adds to the confusion because you don't know where he's
7:48
playing. He just it doesn't.
7:49
Actually. It's not clear when Crozier
7:52
starts using Perry, and he's watching.
7:55
Actually there there is a point where we suggest Perry to the
7:58
6th Doctor and the mass drops a little bit, doesn't he?
8:01
He goes. Oh, female flibbers, you did
8:03
believe hopeless. But I think that adds to the
8:07
confusion because then it's like, well, what has he been
8:09
doing up to this point? Oh, it's been fake evidence.
8:13
Stroke the helmet he put on. Stroke.
8:16
Yeah. His helmet's worn off.
8:19
You know, I've got a point. Stop being fucking fickle.
8:23
I mean, no, you do have a point. I don't think any of us are
8:26
really defending it. We're just throwing out ideas.
8:28
This isn't The Impossible Astronaut by fault or anything
8:32
like. That he definitely has a point.
8:33
I can feel it right now. Everybody knows that Mind Warp
8:38
isn't a perfect script. No.
8:40
No is. Is there someone out there?
8:43
Who? This is their favorite episode
8:44
of Doctor Who. But is that the beauty of mind
8:46
warp? Is that what some would say?
8:48
Is it John Cleese in the in Paris?
8:51
The beauty. Is in the imperfections.
8:56
It does exist. The trouble is, there's there's
8:58
too much that's good in here that you can't write it off.
9:02
No. And as we said earlier on, it's
9:04
it is doing something different. You know, you watch this, you
9:09
watch the mysterious planet, you watch this.
9:10
And which one would you rather have?
9:12
You'd definitely rather take Mind Wolf, wouldn't you?
9:14
Even if you're left not knowing how to feel.
9:17
I like the Die series, yeah. So I think the dialogue's
9:20
stronger and mysterious planet. But the direction is way we.
9:23
Go some taste. Like and we we get, we get.
9:25
Glad it's come and go, stars perish.
9:28
We get glitz and dibberth like the last Holmesian double act.
9:32
Oh yes, get out. And that always says to him.
9:34
All right, I'm there. Now was it Chris Clough?
9:38
Who Director Mysterious. Plants.
9:41
No, it's Nicholas Mallett who would go on to do Paradise
9:44
Towers and The Curse of Fenrik. Yeah, interesting.
9:48
So there's another director proved as he went along.
9:51
Absolutely. And as you should, you know, I
9:54
don't think this is an easy show to direct.
9:56
You're going to learn on the job.
9:57
No, no, I think, I think. This is the cute scene between
10:01
You Can't Have Some very and I think the story tells about like
10:06
his belief of the afterlife is really nice.
10:09
It's just a lovely little touch in a really horrible story.
10:12
It is just nice as well to have a pause for Perry to say I
10:16
really feel lost here and we don't usually get introspection
10:20
from the companions in the 80s. And she looks, she looks so much
10:25
more comfortable in his company. She ever asked with the doctor.
10:28
Basically, she's she's actually laughing, we said.
10:31
That she didn't. Oh, it's weird.
10:32
When the lucosa starts laughing, they start like.
10:36
God, look at him. You you think of those other 80s
10:39
companions departures and you know Nissan's is just so meh and
10:43
Adrix there's no they they build it into the story of.
10:47
The the skills I learned on tracking.
10:50
Thanks Doctor. You die here.
10:54
She was very rarely alive that her.
10:56
I think, I think Tegan has a shit departure seen as well
10:59
because she she has nothing to do in that story.
11:03
Then she just looks around and goes well.
11:04
It's all got a bit. At least it sort of means
11:06
something, though. Yeah, it would.
11:08
It would have helped if it had been scattered.
11:10
This story, it is lame fatigue and.
11:14
I mean, Turlo's in the story after that, and you forget he's
11:16
even been there in the first place.
11:18
No, you get one of his back story in Planet of Fire.
11:20
Oh. Yeah, I forgot.
11:21
That's why it's my favorite story.
11:24
Shout you. But this?
11:27
This and Earth shock. I think these are the two you
11:30
remember from the 80s. I actually forget that Turlo's
11:33
in resurrection, the Dalek, and I think of it.
11:35
I just he's just not there. No.
11:39
Well, he's there, but he's just got got his hanky over his mouth
11:42
walking around. He's a bit comedian for me, like
11:45
once he's once you get past enlightenment, he's not in any
11:49
episode until planet F5. I like the way that he's he's
11:52
true to himself, to the last year, he says.
11:55
Die well, my lady. Yeah, I really like mark strokes
11:58
by the way, just though it's just empty.
12:01
Oh, he's a terrible actor, though.
12:02
Oh, he's so funny. He seems like such a star bloke,
12:05
I remember. When he was watching on the
12:07
behind the sofas he's on the trial of a Time Lord one and he
12:10
watches the mysterious planet and he and Matthew Warehouse
12:13
loves not true so he's going oh, and that wonderful And Mark
12:16
strips was looking at him like he's you know swallowed the sour
12:19
toffee apple or something goes really.
12:21
You'd be happy with that after 18 months off the screen.
12:25
We've we've just missed that. So we have met another mentor
12:29
who's just sort of having a nap. He's.
12:31
Great. Yeah, he's.
12:32
Jokes this guy, the one in the Jacuzzi.
12:34
He's quite funny. He goes, What's it for?
12:36
One moment. I thought you were going to kill
12:38
him. He's just he just there.
12:40
He just pops in while people are running past that.
12:42
How Doctor Who is that? Yeah, it's just an alien just
12:46
sitting in a Jacuzzi in the background.
12:47
He's the. Administrator of the slaves.
12:50
You know, that's what he does. So even the light in here, just
12:55
just where he's taking shoes around that booth with the dry
12:57
ice pumping down, Yeah, this is horrible because she goes, oh,
13:01
I'm all fit and healthy. Well, she thinks she's
13:03
determined to check up. Poor old Perry.
13:09
You say Stupid bitch. I wouldn't trust that bunch at
13:15
all. You can't trust.
13:17
Them also like, how many times has she been near an operating
13:20
table and it's ended well in this series.
13:23
Very few Do you. Remember when she was on
13:26
Shakaya's table tied down? I I loved Perry as a kid.
13:31
When you can't quite comprehend how Terry, I bet.
13:33
You did no. When you got D of her.
13:36
When you. When you can't quite comprehend
13:38
the terrible things that happened to her and you, you
13:41
watch her as an adult and you just feel so bad.
13:44
I think Andrew Zani as a kid and Andrew Zani as an adult are two
13:47
very different experiences. And again, I'll come back to the
13:50
fact that she plays it for real. There's no hint that she's in an
13:55
action adventure series. She's like a a young kid going
13:57
through genuine trauma. It's.
14:02
So weird though, that they push away from that with Mel, because
14:04
suddenly Mel comes along and she's got the tons of agents and
14:07
I know she screams a bit. Well, she doesn't go for any of
14:10
this, no. And you don't ever like.
14:12
She's so sort of superficial. It doesn't feel as real.
14:15
And that's not a sight on Bonnie Langford.
14:17
That is just the character. Yeah, it's.
14:19
What's in the script? You know she's a computer
14:21
programmer from Pease pottage. That is likes exercising that
14:24
she will be. For the unit spin off next year,
14:26
I know. Yeah, we'll learn all about a
14:28
mum and a dad and you know all the trauma she went through and
14:32
how she's. I don't.
14:33
Mind any of that though, I think she's going to come from this
14:35
dreadful middle class family I. Think she's half ban drill on
14:41
her mother's side? It is very odd to go from Colin
14:45
Baker trying to torture Perry to the 334 in the next story, but
14:51
but this is the. JNT thing of rather than
14:53
thinking about character development and things like
14:55
that, he just goes what's the complete opposite to what we've
14:57
had before. That's what he does when he
14:59
casts his doctors. It's just like opposite.
15:03
That is precisely the reason we got Davidson, is because he was
15:06
just not Tom Maker. Yeah.
15:08
Yeah. And that's why we didn't get
15:09
Colin after Tom. Yeah.
15:12
Exactly. Well, you don't.
15:13
Get Colin either, but you know what I mean.
15:15
I. See again, I just sort of tied
15:17
into the point I said before, but as soon as the Doctor and
15:19
you kind of start teaming up, it's very confusing.
15:23
What? What the hell is meant to have
15:25
happened to the Doctor? We just need a point throughout
15:28
the story where it's explained what it, which I know even Colin
15:31
himself was asking. For it, it's it's one line
15:35
somewhere. That's all it needs, yeah.
15:37
Literally or just. Like other I don't know.
15:40
For some reason I haven't put the helmet on again.
15:41
And it sucks because I don't even think it's something like
15:43
that. It's.
15:44
Not like a good thing. What the fuck is this?
15:48
That's the Terra Neptune. Yeah.
15:49
I just always forget it's it's horrible.
15:52
It's so. Bad.
15:53
It's clearly you've just got the actor in there going.
15:58
And that's meant to be like a big banker from another world,
16:01
right? Yeah, a big a big banker, I
16:04
think. You'll be you'll be a racist.
16:06
You are, yeah. What?
16:09
Look at the leucosis hair now. Yeah, sort of matted hair.
16:15
He looks like I bet. That's a really pretty man as
16:18
well underneath all that make up.
16:19
Do you know what? It's called what?
16:23
What? But the alien?
16:24
Lucasa? No, the purple thing?
16:29
Oh no. A bit representative of
16:31
something Or a pulsarian? They never come back in any spin
16:36
off media, not even the Lucy Wilson novels.
16:39
Oh. No.
16:41
I've got to. Say I've got to say I think
16:43
Philip Martin can't be a joke. I love that bit there where he
16:45
goes, No, I'm not going until I found my bro to be in.
16:49
Colin Baker goes We've got time for you to go coursing as in the
16:52
middle of this drama. It is quite witty, this.
16:57
It is, yeah. This is where Cozier began.
17:00
But it's. Quite witty for me as.
17:02
Well, it's quite. Witty, but I don't think you can
17:04
laugh. No, this is so fucking dark.
17:07
Yeah, you think like a warrior, but you do not act like one.
17:13
It's most perplexing. It's it's quite straps before
17:18
straps, isn't it? Who Brah Blessed?
17:21
You. Can't.
17:21
Yeah, yeah. I see that also.
17:23
Why is it suddenly gone lighter? Estate though daytime.
17:29
Don't you love it when when your Cardos threatens this mentor, he
17:32
sort of just gently touches his neck.
17:34
He says Be quiet, wizard one. You will be the first to die.
17:40
Like to me, even now the Doctor's just pissing about when
17:44
Perry's in very real danger. And because we don't know why
17:49
they. Rescue in twos or otherwise he's
17:50
gonna have his brain give to. Toss about teaser Perry's the
17:54
component every. Life's important, Luke.
17:57
But not Perry's. Perry's is the least of all.
18:00
He's never cared about it before.
18:02
The man who never would. He the man who would, that's
18:07
who. Colin Bakeries.
18:12
Is he trying to strangle him? But he's got no neck.
18:14
I. Know it's very cute.
18:18
You could just tell. Blessings.
18:19
Done. A lot of work on the stage.
18:21
Yeah, he has. He has presents.
18:27
It's just I'm I'm really disappointed that he never
18:30
showed up in the the girl who died either because he was
18:33
originally cast, wasn't he, as he was.
18:35
Yeah, he was. Odin.
18:37
Yeah, like. We needed that and I just don't
18:41
know whether there's a role in here in Doctor Who for him
18:43
anymore. But as as as an evil God in the
18:46
sky, yeah, perfection. He just sued that as well.
18:49
It's a really. I think it's a fun story.
18:51
The girl who died. Yeah, he did.
18:53
It's the one fun story from that season.
18:56
He just. Set the the bar.
18:59
Yeah, you're probably right actually.
19:00
It's not a lot of laughs. It's I got.
19:02
Two-part Who is depressed as hell?
19:04
Sleeping them all? The last three, I mean it's it's
19:09
miserable Series 9. It is, but Misery loves company,
19:15
so I enjoyed watching it. Yes.
19:17
And we will certainly enjoy talking about it next week.
19:20
Indeed, if I can. Stay awake.
19:22
Also very funny, Bra Blessed does now spend the next 5
19:28
minutes just bellowing his head off.
19:31
It's the Sandman. I feel sorry for that, that that
19:34
voice is coming through someone's headphones somewhere
19:36
that. Mentor's doing what we all think
19:38
just. Go.
19:40
Just go. Nasty shave her head.
19:45
Do you remember the the Blu-ray trailer for season 22?
19:52
And it's got Perry in the Temple?
19:55
That one didn't land for me. No, me.
19:57
Neither I just. Didn't it just didn't feel
20:00
anything with that? Can I be?
20:02
Can I be really honest with you? Most of those Blu-ray trailers
20:04
don't work with me. Do you know?
20:06
What I didn't think the the latest Tegan one was all that
20:08
and that's because Janet Fielding can't act.
20:11
I'm not. Big on him the only.
20:13
Two that worked for me were the Mel and the ACE ones.
20:16
Oh the. Mel One was fun.
20:17
That's. Because it's your time though,
20:18
isn't it? But the age is, but saying that.
20:21
The ace one, I thought, but he it was one of the early ones
20:24
when it was new. It's a new thing.
20:27
The ace one was good. I quite like the Joe Grant one
20:29
With the daffodils that was. Yeah, that that one's all right
20:33
as Joe, because Joe one where she has that adventure in a cave
20:36
with a sea devil baby. Oh.
20:38
That was shit. Any.
20:39
Any time, do you know? At the PFI they brought those
20:43
two girls up on the stage. We're in that and they were
20:46
interviewed and I'm like they're in a 2 minute trailer.
20:49
Why are they on the stage? I quite.
20:50
Like the season 23 one where it's just a piss taken Collins
20:54
in prison. Well.
20:55
Because that happened in real life, didn't it?
20:58
They just. Filmed when he got that parking
21:00
ticket. So funny.
21:02
I don't think we need an emotional like dagger through
21:06
the heart for each companion that ever actually.
21:08
What interested me more about what was the one called with
21:11
Perry, I can't remember now. The Wanderer, The Traveller.
21:15
Yeah, something like that. What excited me more was seeing
21:19
that enormous stature of Brian Blessed.
21:21
Oh yeah, and sort of them sketching out a bit of the
21:24
future where he's made a bit of an impact.
21:27
I quite like that, and less the sort of Perry stuff.
21:30
How did you feel about Maureen O'Brien wandering around a park
21:33
somewhere in? Why quite like that one I.
21:36
Was I was just that who's there that's because you're.
21:41
Very young Luke Malloy I. Knew who it was, but again, it
21:43
just didn't work, Did it, somebody?
21:45
Messaged me about that and said this is giving off some serious
21:48
BBV vibes now. I get that's what it is.
21:51
That's why I don't like it. It's very BBV.
21:54
You bet a lot. Of them are like that.
21:55
They do one CGI shot. Yeah, I mean.
21:58
They've got no money to be fair. And it does get people excited.
22:03
Let's remember that it might not be for us, but it does get a
22:06
lot. Yeah.
22:06
And if. They were doing it for as you
22:08
made this point to me, Joe, if they were doing it in 20th time
22:11
with Matt Smith and Karen Gillan, I'd be absolutely.
22:14
Gillian. Catherine Tate.
22:15
Oh, wait, we're getting three specials.
22:17
Oh. Or.
22:20
Are they? You've seen a speculation
22:22
podcast for more detail this. Look at this Seal Seal's being
22:26
carried by one of his muscly slaves.
22:28
Yeah, and then you get the the four USB and sort of dancing
22:31
around doing interpretive dolls around the Sense.
22:34
It's all very strange. Yeah.
22:36
So right for this bit, I don't think it's as big an epic an end
22:41
in that, but they want. To see.
22:43
I think it's more of just a bit of a chaotic mess look.
22:46
Look at this little Stinger going, he.
22:49
Wants to put. That in that big muscly chat,
22:51
doesn't it? God, I'll put some yogurt,
22:52
yogurt, yogurt muscles. I do love this shot, Sills.
23:01
Yogurt on sills Stinger or the the muscles the.
23:04
Muscles. I do love this shot though with
23:07
him going backwards it is a great.
23:08
Shot. It is an iconic shot for a
23:10
reason. And there he goes.
23:15
And you just. You don't see this in any other
23:17
story, do you? So it is just a big WTF moment
23:22
and. What I do like about this climax
23:24
is we cut back to the courtroom and everything and it goes.
23:26
All the high council have decided that this is the the
23:28
right thing to do and the best course of action.
23:31
Get the sexy spaceship shot as well, it suddenly.
23:34
Makes the courtroom part of story really important.
23:37
Yeah, this in now is intruding on the other story.
23:41
That's. What you said wasn't it?
23:42
It's actually relevant to the to the story, which is why.
23:46
In episode 13, where we go and we get all the revelations about
23:49
the value yard and that's why that's really exciting again,
23:52
because again, it makes all this common stuff very relevant.
23:55
As a kid, episodes 13 and 14 were like any season finale
24:00
you've ever seen to me before. I was like, God, this is Doctor
24:03
Who doing big budget, exciting arcs.
24:06
It was, you know, it was the sound of drums and.
24:08
Their way of. Getting at the dirt and.
24:11
Me. It's just like it's so clever.
24:16
But the Time Lords are. Only doing what the Doctor is
24:19
doing, which is just like sorting it out in the way they
24:22
see is right. Yeah, you know what's
24:26
staggeringly? Undramatic is how Perry dies
24:29
between scenes. In one scene she's struggling,
24:32
and in the next scene she's cave.
24:34
Yeah. It's sad, Bob Perry.
24:37
Still hot, Yeah. Still hot?
24:39
Still very hot. Do you think she's hot?
24:41
Here as the evil Bull Perry, yeah.
24:44
Absolute, Yeah, it's because. You've both got a toe fetish and
24:47
they start wriggling them again, doesn't it?
24:50
I absolutely would never go near go no king shaming, but keep
24:55
your feet away from me, whoever you are.
24:58
Stingers, though, no. Stingers I'm.
25:02
There for it. Oh, and this is great as well.
25:05
When he goes, you know, charge and suddenly they're affecting
25:09
this again. Don't know.
25:09
They make it all go into slow motion.
25:11
Everything's got to be in place for for this discovery to be
25:15
wiped out. This is really exciting stuff, I
25:18
think. Yeah, and.
25:19
Then they use them as assassins, which is something Nick Biggs
25:22
will do again and again and again, but that's.
25:25
A great line though, don't you think?
25:27
You're using King Yakanos as an assassin?
25:29
I do. Think this does.
25:31
Although we've got like, the sleepy Time Lords in the
25:34
background, I do think this does do something to take the Time
25:37
Lords to a bit more powerful away from that fucking arc of
25:40
Infinity. Just meandering fucking old
25:43
people. They're actively taking a role
25:45
and they are, you know, they're excising data in the first in in
25:51
Mysterious Planet and they're they're killing somebody here.
25:54
It's like, Oh no, these are people that are powerful and you
25:57
know. Are you saying Dylan?
25:58
They took it upon themselves to act like second rate gods.
26:02
That's exactly what I'm saying, but just not quite as
26:04
eloquently. Oh.
26:05
My God now has control of the Matrix.
26:10
Yeah, compare Colleen and Davidson.
26:12
It's chalk and cheese. She's great here, isn't she?
26:16
Really. Good.
26:18
The problem is as you get the upgraded version on Blu Rays and
26:21
DVDs like that. Bold makeup look fine on Avhs,
26:25
but I can see. I can see the, you can see the.
26:27
Cap, can't you? But even then, I think you can
26:30
just say that that's something to the brain transplant, so it
26:33
doesn't really. Bother me.
26:34
Because she's so pretty, it's just ghastly what they've done
26:37
to her. It's a great performance though
26:41
and he goes welcome. To your new body, yeah.
26:45
But this is where he's intolerable.
26:49
She need never die, yeah. It's because it's it's it's it's
26:54
trying to be big, but at the same time he's saying it quite
26:56
as well she need. Never.
26:57
Die. It's for me.
26:59
Right this bit. Now where he goes.
27:01
No. When I was a kid, drama would
27:05
never get higher than this. Still doesn't, still doesn't
27:09
it's. Fucking great.
27:11
It's great. It's very.
27:13
I like how. I'm still just turns around as
27:15
well. Like as I turn around like that
27:18
at work, if someone just strolls through the door, you could.
27:21
Imagine him sort of going under his where?
27:23
I thought, bugger. Oh Oh no, the woman of his.
27:29
Dreams and then. Even, like, even the special
27:32
effects Quantel fade out is great.
27:35
Oh, I love it. But like, don't you say, Doctor?
27:39
Melodramatic. Oh.
27:41
For sure it's operatic, but we like that, don't we?
27:46
Like that you killed. Perry anyway.
27:48
Carrot juice. Let's go.
27:51
I do think he delivers that line brilliantly though, that sort of
27:53
faltering. He cannot believe it.
27:56
Yes. And then he saw Cheeks wobble as
28:00
he says the last lines, doesn't he?
28:02
With absolute indignation. And I have every intention of
28:06
finding out. But this is kind of like it's
28:10
it's almost that cliffhanger of Rose I'm coming to get you at
28:14
the end of of Bad Wolf. It's not such the close.
28:19
UPS I'm calling and you're fucking furious.
28:22
But. I think it's justified.
28:23
In this case it's, not. Often Doctor Who ends with a
28:26
cliffhanger like that, and in fact perhaps never in the
28:29
classic series. Apart from there of like the
28:31
Doctor threatening to do something, like Don't put me in
28:33
a trap and but you know it's very rare.
28:35
So I I think that's a a more interesting cliffhanger from
28:39
this this run of episodes. Another reason why you can't
28:43
just cut the trial scenes out, which people seem insistent on
28:46
doing with these with these episodes.
28:50
Even if you recall, at the end of the mysterious planet, the
28:52
Doctor sort of goes, Well, if that's the muck you can rake up,
28:55
wake me up when it's finished. Now, that's not a great
28:58
statement to make. This is a bit more dramatic,
29:01
isn't it? Yeah.
29:02
And. By the end, I do want to carry
29:04
on with the trial. I want to see where it goes.
29:07
So that's oh, I can't. Imagine anyone who was watching
29:09
this at the time didn't want to watch the next one after that.
29:12
Yeah, it's a big cliffhanger. And then how many people were
29:16
watching? About 7 or 8 million at this
29:17
point, no. It was about it was four or
29:20
five. I think it went down to three
29:23
for mysterious planet and then it started climbing and it was
29:26
sort of 5 1/2 towards 6. I'm not.
29:28
Surprised the ultimate. Foe when I had a lot of stories
29:31
while people didn't have the attention spans at the time, but
29:36
like Doctor Who, Doctor Who stories do tend to end on a a
29:39
happy note, don't they? You know the Rebellion succeeds.
29:44
The villains are foiled. But this story is not over.
29:48
That's true. And they'll sort of pick it up
29:51
and sort of not in five episodes time.
29:54
I like the fact in terror, the verveils we get, the happy
29:56
ending, you know, the verveils have all been defeated.
29:58
And it's like the charge must now be genocide. close up.
30:05
Yeah, I mean the. Trial, I think, yeah.
30:08
It's always often unfairly seen as this failed experiment or
30:11
like stupid move. Yeah, it's a little bit like
30:17
silly maybe putting it on trial when the show is on trial sort
30:21
of thing. But it is also Doctor doing like
30:24
what it should be doing, which is pushing the boundaries, doing
30:27
something new. And I mean, it really does just
30:31
throw absolutely crazy ideas and it's never done before.
30:36
Deconstructs the show's rules. It turns it into a trial drama,
30:42
this, this add self editing of its own stories.
30:45
You've got a story from the future, You've got a villain
30:47
that's him. But in six you know,
30:50
incarnations, time and evil. I mean, it's all just like
30:55
brilliant, brilliant, fizzing with ideas.
30:57
It's not this like, Lost Bad Move.
31:01
I'd say no. Refreshing to hear somebody who
31:06
came to the show through the new series go back, watch the
31:10
classic series and enjoy this and the same nice things about
31:15
it, because I don't think that's often the case.
31:18
Yeah, well, I mean it comes with none of that pressure if it
31:21
being the Doctor Who at the time does it.
31:23
And you know any, any weakness when you feel like Doctor Who
31:27
might be getting close to cancellation.
31:29
Any weakness or long move can really push you, you know?
31:34
This was the first time in the show it was history, that it
31:36
wasn't safe, that it wasn't a given to the fans.
31:39
I think we know it nearly came to an end after season six and
31:42
seven, but this is the first time a Doctor Who fans had
31:46
suddenly grown up. And they were in their late
31:48
teens, their early 20s, and they'd, you know, they'd form
31:51
societies and things, and they're all very vocal.
31:54
And the idea that Doctor Who wouldn't be there, they all felt
31:56
somehow entitled to it because it had been their their entire
31:59
life. And then all of a sudden they
32:01
become adults and they realized that life is a fickle bitch that
32:04
will slap you around the face every now and then, probably.
32:07
So I. Don't think that cancellation
32:08
anxiety ever went away. And after it got cancelled for
32:12
good at the end of survival, obviously we had that enormous
32:17
gap. So when the show came back,
32:18
everyone was just waiting for the point where okay, they're
32:22
not going to make it anymore. So there's suddenly this
32:25
enormous pressure that every episodes got to be the best
32:28
fucking thing ever. Otherwise, they're going to
32:30
cancel our precious show, just like they did in 86 or 89.
32:34
It's it's a it's a problem. This should.
32:36
Really be like a company or you know some sort of spin off media
32:40
that just makes some Doctor Who stories for us, just to put us
32:42
all at rest a little bit. It's on idea.
32:47
On idea it is. Fully still here, It's
32:50
definitely, it's definitely have.
32:52
We have. We hit Season 23 of the new
32:54
series, yet it was. Definitely part of my like
32:58
thing, looking back about with the Jerry whiskey.
33:01
So it was like, yeah, not only am I not enjoying it, but it's
33:04
killed it as well, you know. That was always of it.
33:07
It won't exist past this like it's fully dead.
33:11
Possibly. The biggest finger in the face
33:13
that Chimnell could have done was yeah, you didn't like it and
33:15
I didn't cancel it. He can't.
33:20
He brought it down close, that's true.
33:22
But I. Think Moffett might have once or
33:23
twice as well, but. So I don't think there was ever
33:27
a danger of Doctor Who being cancelled after Chimnell not
33:30
knowing what to do with it is very different from it being
33:32
cancelled. They were looking for people to
33:34
do it. It's just nobody wants to do it.
33:36
And let's me not forget, it was the BBC who wanted to a partner
33:40
with a streamer. And from what I understand from
33:42
that little quote, Ross T Davis said I think it was a whirlwind.
33:46
Well, we'll give it to the showrunner who's done, I don't
33:48
know, low key. I know that's not the best
33:51
example because they've just announced some of the writers,
33:53
but, you know, a big Disney writer to do it, but who doesn't
33:56
necessarily understand the show. That's why I feel Ross T goes
33:59
back. Obviously, we're on speculation
34:01
again. Well, fellas, so we can go to
34:05
bed tonight, there are three reasons as to why we recommend
34:10
mine warp there. Isn't any real difference though
34:13
with season 23 to all of the Davidson series like in quality,
34:19
it's it's inconsistent. I don't.
34:21
Think with classic. There's so much space now
34:23
between classic and noon, you know, I think classic series is
34:26
all a bit ropey now, but yeah. It's that thing of just show,
34:31
show, show your girlfriend 5 and show your girlfriend Pyramids
34:35
and Mars and as she will see no fucking difference.
34:38
Absolutely. Dylan.
34:40
Has once again proven, as with the Flux and series six, that if
34:45
they do a season long arc, he's there for it.
34:49
That's. True, That's true.
34:51
Or a. Hybrid.
34:53
Hybrid hybrids, we'll discuss that.
34:56
Next week, you cunts. OK.
34:58
Yeah. Sorry, let's let's do our let's
34:59
do our three things then. Well, let's start.
35:02
With Luke, then go to Dylan and I'll go last.
35:05
Oh, OK. I'll go for the alien planet and
35:09
just the fucking weird aliens and just a really it's a proper
35:14
alien world and I know. So as you go on it gets a bit
35:18
less alien because you sort of are just getting run around in
35:21
tunnels. But that first shot of the
35:22
planet in the distance, them stepping into the blue water,
35:27
the the mentors, all this, you know we even the weird pink
35:32
thing at the end the Pomerzarian or whatever.
35:35
It builds up this replicated Philip Martin world that he's
35:40
done before, but it it is something that classic ducks who
35:44
didn't do as successfully as this many other times.
35:49
Great. I am going to go for the
35:51
lighting by Don Babbage. Now, I said earlier, it's about
35:56
the person, you know, getting it right and getting the right
35:59
person. But this is the same person who
36:02
had the studio waiting for dragon fire.
36:04
Oh no. Went wrong.
36:09
Actually looking at his his run of stories, I think he doesn't
36:13
feel like he also does Revelation.
36:15
He does Caves of Andrazzani. He does the twin dilemma for you
36:19
know, I don't know whether the lighting is the problem in the
36:21
twin if the. 1. At their off days, yeah.
36:25
Exactly. Exactly.
36:26
Maybe he was going through a divorce or something, but I love
36:30
what Don Babbage did by the use of the strobes, by those big
36:35
shining white lights out of the sort of where they're keeping
36:37
people hostage just and then the darkness for the rest of it.
36:41
He really, And that really helps sell that.
36:43
Aliens world and the oppressive nature of of the alien world
36:46
that Luke was talking about earlier.
36:48
Well, let's go free for free with the production then.
36:51
And I'll say Richard Hartley's music, which I think is 1, you
36:54
know, move over. Dudley Simpson is one of the
36:57
best scores for the classic series.
36:59
It's I love the music where we first go through the screen to
37:02
Thoros Beta, you know, and it's like it's all this sort of
37:08
wistful, weird, exotic alien music.
37:11
But also he does give the action a bit of A and he just puts this
37:16
sort of sinister, dark undertone to the whole story, which is
37:20
helped by the special effects, which is helped by the lighting.
37:23
But the music locks in as well. So overall, you've just got such
37:26
a solid production. Absolutely.
37:31
OK, the scene between Eukanos and Perry in Part 4 where he's
37:37
telling her about how he believes in afterlife or what
37:40
his belief in the afterlife is. And Perry's quite sympathetic.
37:43
Hell even finds it funny somehow.
37:49
Sells. The idea that she could possibly
37:51
love this man and spend the rest of her life with him, which she
37:54
doesn't do by the end of this part 8, but possibly might later
38:01
on. Why?
38:03
To fight? What else?
38:06
For that big old? Sorry, OK, Sorry.
38:10
I can't act it as well as that. I'm actually going to pick a
38:15
slightly obscure one and I'm going to pick the tin, but the
38:19
VHS came in. Oh no, that's great.
38:23
Because it was such a wonderful thing to own as a like 10 year
38:29
old or 12 year old or whatever. It was this chunky tin that had
38:33
this weird plastic thing that sort of looked time lordy.
38:36
And then there was the cardboard box inside and the art on the
38:39
end. Each one came with a different
38:41
doctor and they were just, they are.
38:44
Joe's got his tin out. Who's on the bottom?
38:46
Joe, who's on the bottom? Madam, what year is this?
38:52
Jean between Jean. Between.
38:56
Yeah, I. Love.
38:56
I loved that tin. It was the most exciting thing
38:59
to own as a child. And yeah, videos in tins.
39:02
You kids don't know you're fucking born with your cyber
39:05
man. Yeah, sorry.
39:07
I'm just playing now. There is something to be said
39:09
though. When when the child would find I
39:11
came out DVD, for me it was and having the whole a whole series
39:16
of Doctor Who, a whole classic series of Doctor Who in one box
39:20
set we've never. Seen the likes of it again.
39:25
It was special, it. Was only from BBC Worldwide.
39:31
Do you remember that trailer? I did.
39:33
That was a bit later on, that wasn't.
39:35
That wasn't on the mind wall thing.
39:37
That was a bit later on. That had the 13th.
39:40
Audio stand on video for his many fans.
39:45
I think that was Steve Cole. You know it was.
39:47
I used to love so much the coming soon trailers on each
39:51
DVD. Oh yeah, trouble is.
39:53
They made them look like sort of cinematic movies and then you
39:56
watch the bloody things you're going oh, but.
39:58
Because they they were genuinely new for me so it'd be like and I
40:02
did used to get them up by month so that was they were so excited
40:06
and I love watching them. They still include.
40:07
Them on the Blu rays, you know. Yeah, yeah.
40:09
I watch them all the time. Every night is there watching
40:12
these dragoners, I am going to say.
40:16
Tails trailer over though, Brian.
40:18
Blessed as a whole, because I think he does this as a.
40:21
Whole as a. Whole not, Not as an asshole as
40:24
we. We we already said that he's not
40:26
the bottom as a. Fully rounded person.
40:29
Oh man, I'd bottom for Brian Blessing any day.
40:34
I'd get lost under there somewhere, but it'll be the most
40:37
memorable night of my life as a whole person, character,
40:41
whatever you want to say. I think he is not magnetic to I
40:45
can't keep my eyes off him, even when he's shouting his head off.
40:49
He's really fun. He's funny.
40:51
He can be dramatic when he wants to be.
40:53
He can bring it down when he wants to.
40:55
He's probably doing pulling more weight than Colin Baker in this,
40:58
because the script is so confused about what Colin
41:00
Baker's doing. So in terms of a protagonist, I
41:04
think blessed might be it in this story, and possibly a tiny
41:08
glimpse into what he might have been like as the Doctor,
41:12
especially in the moments where he brings it down, yeah.
41:15
Yeah. Yeah.
41:17
I. As much as time to be in a.
41:20
Scent like this. As much as I sort of had
41:24
problems with Colin's sort of performance as the evil Doctor
41:29
and the Doctor being evil and whatever, this story does exist
41:34
and what it does do is really bring in the child and push it
41:39
in a new direction. And also gives the value a bit
41:41
of bite and a bit of like he's a proper villain and he's
41:44
presented this as his attack and that because I am a fan of the
41:52
child scenes, it is nice for that to really be brought in at
41:56
this point. And and they'll probably keep
41:59
you ticking over while Tara the Verbalist doesn't really have
42:01
anything to do with it until we get back to the ultimate pho
42:04
later on. Yeah.
42:06
Just tying in those two worlds a bit more because I don't think
42:09
the mysterious planet did it all so successfully.
42:13
And I hate, I hate that there's that version of terror the verve
42:17
voids on the Blu-ray where they've cut out the trial
42:19
series. That's sacrilege in what would
42:21
the in what would the Doctor E story.
42:23
Is it acceptable to just cut out scenes the?
42:26
Enlightenment Special edition. She's 70 minutes long and and.
42:30
I suppose the animation for the back of terror as well, but
42:33
that's a new kind of worms. But yeah, I I like the trial
42:38
scenes in in all of them, but this one is probably the one
42:42
where the most relevant and and have the most impact.
42:47
OK. Don't you love the fact that
42:49
someone chose the trial things to learn?
42:51
I just think that's gold. People are fucking weird.
42:57
Just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be done.
43:03
I thought you that was your last thing there.
43:04
No, no, no, no, no. Are you talking about Mine's
43:07
role for the child or Luke? Someone cutting the the the oh
43:12
oh good. I.
43:14
Thought you were. I thought you need.
43:15
To be more specific, sorry I was.
43:18
I I was Googling my next one actually because it's quite a
43:21
it's an even more niche one, but now I fully support second.
43:24
Lighting director, yes. Yeah, Don Babar who?
43:27
Appeared in Productive. Yeah.
43:30
I know I'm going to choose Alistair this and it's cover for
43:33
the target novelization because. It's.
43:38
Fucking weird. And he gets Sil wrong.
43:40
Sil's face is wrong. Well, solid.
43:42
Isn't he? Yeah, he's boss eyed and he
43:45
looks peculiar. But this was again like a really
43:48
early memory of seeing it in a shop somewhere.
43:50
And it's got the McCoy logo and it's got that pink beach with
43:55
the with the sky. And then it's got the mentors
43:58
and there's a real like, I remember just getting in to
44:02
Doctor Who and looking at that book and going, what the fuck is
44:04
that one about? That looks really weird.
44:06
And the boss. I'd still somehow makes it even
44:09
more peculiar. And I later saw it up and not to
44:12
contend Luke where I put No, I didn't.
44:17
Are you sure? Yeah.
44:19
Possibly. I don't know.
44:20
I can't remember when I bought it, but I just remember seeing
44:22
it and being like that. Is that is that's Doctor Who,
44:24
isn't it? Weird aliens?
44:26
Weird alien planets? What is this?
44:28
Did it have? The pizzerian on the front of
44:31
it. You know, maybe it was on, maybe
44:33
it was on the back somewhere. Nothing would be more
44:36
unforgettable than the verbal. It's cover.
44:38
I'm just like an enormous Fanny staring at you in the face.
44:42
My last thing then, is going to be like the general sort of
44:46
wrongness of this and how that's utilized to make this a really
44:50
uncomfortable, unforgettable experience.
44:53
So the Doctor being the most evil he's ever been, Perry being
44:58
tortured, Perry being killed. Like all of this is so wrong.
45:03
It's so not what Doctor Who should be doing when it's just
45:06
been fucking put on hiatus for 18 months.
45:10
One thing they shouldn't have been doing is reminding us all
45:12
that the show's on trial. The second thing they shouldn't
45:15
be doing is reminding us is why it went on hiatus for 18 months.
45:19
But hey ho, you can't say Ericsson wasn't brave.
45:23
No, no, no. There there's a there's a real
45:25
uncomfortable appeal to this story which makes it quite
45:30
unique I think in Doctor Who times I don't think many classic
45:33
who's have this sense of unease so yeah so that that's that's my
45:38
third reason I I'm. Glad.
45:40
I'm not sure it should. Have happened, but I'm glad it
45:42
did. I'm glad.
45:43
You said that though, because you are right.
45:46
Like it's it is unique. And actually, I I find it quite
45:49
hard to find that many things that make me feel uncomfortable
45:55
in a certain way, fresh. Crawling you can feel.
45:57
Grossed out or you can feel scared or whatever, but there's
46:00
not many things that make you feel actually uncomfortable or,
46:03
you know, just a bit leave a bad taste.
46:06
And especially not Doctor Who. Doctor Who shouldn't be doing
46:09
that. But the fact it does is, is that
46:11
safe death? It's that quote for the fact it
46:15
does is sort of the beauty of it.
46:18
And again, it just pushes that remit of Doctor Who can and does
46:22
can be anything and you know, can live through it, do you
46:26
think? Part of that is the Eric Sayward
46:28
thing of not giving a fuck about the characters of the Doctor.
46:31
So he's willing to let the show do the sort of things that you
46:34
wouldn't normally do with it. Because actually, it's just
46:36
like, yeah, this is interesting. This is the type of story I want
46:39
to tell. We'll.
46:40
See if our TD kills Donna offer makes the bold at the end of the
46:43
Giggle, and then we'll know he's not going to be.
46:45
Bold, please. He's going to be dead.
46:48
Shave her head. You know, it's like we, like I
46:53
said earlier about this is sort of as far as he can push it,
46:56
isn't it? And I'm glad we didn't go any
46:59
further with this because then you're going to start battering
47:01
this into a shape that isn't Doctor Who.
47:03
We're getting dangerously close. I think it is.
47:05
Already there with without the explanation of what the doctor's
47:10
actually doing, whether he's been edited or whether he's had
47:13
his brain much without the explanation.
47:15
I think it's already there. And I don't think he'd go any
47:17
further, apart from literally undressing people or literally
47:21
having physical violence. I mean you.
47:23
Were going to have scenes in The Ultimate Evil of him being hit
47:26
by the violence Ray. Apparently he was going to pick
47:28
up a Shard of glass and start running around this planet
47:32
trying to kill the aliens. Eric Sorts really didn't like
47:37
Colin Baker, did he any? More uncomfortable than this and
47:40
it just becomes Zygra. It's gone BBV.
47:43
But it is unique for it, and that should be treasured.
47:46
Yeah, yeah, I. Agree.
47:47
I. Agree.
47:49
Hey. Boys talking about other unique
47:53
experiments that perhaps should or should not have happened,
47:57
Where are we going next? We're going to a castle, very
48:01
famous castle, the Confessions Dial castle.
48:05
What a castle. It's quite.
48:06
I think it's. I think it's a bit of
48:07
Caerphilly, isn't it? Really.
48:08
Yeah, I think. You're right.
48:12
And then we're going to Gallifrey.
48:14
Oh. Christ but it.
48:16
Is we are doing the hands down best episode of Mother Duck 2
48:21
Next Heaven Sent followed by Hell bed.
48:25
Well, I love them both equally, I.
48:28
I also love Hell Bed, but it's a lot.
48:30
Hell, bed's definitely the juice you want to talk about for many
48:33
a reason, not just the reason you probably think and I.
48:36
Don't want to keep my powder dry.
48:37
I think one's very boring and I think the other one is one of my
48:41
least favorite new series episodes.
48:43
So this is going to be an interesting conversation.
48:46
It's going. To be a hoot.
48:47
I can't wait. There's.
48:48
Always one of us in there that don't like it have, you know?
48:51
That's the new format. We can't.
48:53
We can't. All.
48:54
Just mutually masturbate an episode of Doctor Who all the
48:57
time. But we could.
48:58
We could mutually masturbate and hate one because there was a
49:01
point when we all agreed the visitation was shit during this
49:04
podcast. Let's.
49:05
Do it let's. Just go and rip the visitation
49:08
to shreds, OK, add. It to the list.
49:12
Well, fellas, it's been a blast. Until next Tuesday, your pair of
49:16
cunts See you. Next Tuesday, you cunts.
49:21
Goodbye. Beautiful and I'll.
49:23
Cut it there.