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SMNTY Interviews: Gina Stamm (Part 2) · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
0:07
Speaker 1: I Never Told You production of iHeartRadio. And today we
0:19
Speaker 1: are bringing you part two of our interview with doctor
0:23
Speaker 1: Ginas Thom, who specializes in all things intersectional feminism in France.
0:29
Speaker 1: And before we get into this quick correction, Gina wanted
0:33
Speaker 1: you to know we misspoke in the last episode and
0:37
Speaker 1: she has not written any books yet. She's written articles
0:43
Speaker 1: and academic journals and chapters and edited collections, but no
0:47
Speaker 1: books again yet, but still a lot to dig into
0:54
Speaker 1: in the works that she has done. If you didn't
0:57
Speaker 1: hear part one, go back and listen to that because
1:00
Speaker 1: it's really gives so much context and it's really a
1:03
Speaker 1: good foundation for what we're going to be talking about
1:05
Speaker 1: in this episode where we break down a lot of
1:08
Speaker 1: the current issues around women in France right now. So
1:14
Speaker 1: if you haven't listened to that yet, go listen to
1:16
Speaker 1: that and then come back. But if you have listened,
1:20
Speaker 1: then let's get into the interview.
1:23
Speaker 2: Okay, So we're talking wow, Okay, so much. It's going
1:27
Speaker 2: to take me like the rest of the day to
1:29
Speaker 2: chew on all of this information online because again, I'm like,
1:32
Speaker 2: French culture is not my forte is not something that
1:35
Speaker 2: I've studied specifically language obviously not. As I said, I
1:39
Speaker 2: need a lot of note cards and help. But with
1:41
Speaker 2: all of that, there's some big conversations that are happening
1:44
Speaker 2: around women and feminism in France right now, right, h
1:48
Speaker 2: can you kind of give us an overview of the
1:50
Speaker 2: public discourse around some of that.
1:52
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'll try to do this as efficiently as possible,
1:58
Speaker 3: and I'm going to leave stuff out, but well, so
2:02
Speaker 3: I do want to address abortion really quickly. There's been this,
2:05
Speaker 3: so it wound up in the Constitution after a couple
2:08
Speaker 3: of attempts, and this is prime. The push for this
2:14
Speaker 3: primarily came after Roe v. Wade was overturned in the
2:18
Speaker 3: US and also after there started to be calls on
2:21
Speaker 3: the far right for limitations on it, and so they
2:25
Speaker 3: there was this fear. They were like, if Trump can
2:27
Speaker 3: happen in America, it could happen here. It needs to
2:30
Speaker 3: go in the Constitution to make it more difficult to
2:32
Speaker 3: undo the right to abortion. Vaaman did not get in.
2:37
Speaker 3: The freedom to abortion to have an abortion did get in.
2:42
Speaker 3: So this isn't nothing, but I want and I want
2:46
Speaker 3: to tip my hat to a legal scholar named Sabrina.
2:49
Speaker 3: I don't actually know how to say her name. I've
2:50
Speaker 3: never done it, said it out loud, but Sabrina Rangin
2:55
Speaker 3: who explained the different really clearly, the difference between the
2:58
Speaker 3: freedom and the right. If you have the right to
3:00
Speaker 3: have something that's a positive entitlement, and not only are
3:07
Speaker 3: you not going to be punished for it, but you
3:09
Speaker 3: need to have access to it. If you have the
3:11
Speaker 3: freedom to do something, you're not going to be punished
3:14
Speaker 3: for it, but there may not be the concrete protections
3:19
Speaker 3: for your access to that. And this has become evident
3:23
Speaker 3: recently one because you've seen despite what are supposed to
3:27
Speaker 3: be legal protections, you've seen the return of clinic protesters
3:30
Speaker 3: in France. And you've also seen because the current government
3:36
Speaker 3: has been starving the public health system in a way
3:41
Speaker 3: that we've seen We've seen obviously in the US in
3:45
Speaker 3: what we in so far as we ever had a
3:48
Speaker 3: public health system. The UK has seen this as well.
3:52
Speaker 3: The current government Amendumocrants government in France has closed a
3:57
Speaker 3: lot of hospital beds and they're really understaffed. So there's
4:02
Speaker 3: a medical desert problem that isn't comparable. Like I live
4:06
Speaker 3: in Alabama. There are a lot of places where you
4:08
Speaker 3: cannot get to a hospital within an hour. So distances
4:13
Speaker 3: in the US mean that medical deserts are bigger and
4:17
Speaker 3: more serious. But compared to the situation that existed in
4:21
Speaker 3: France in the past, you're now getting medical deserts. And
4:24
Speaker 3: so a recent statistic that came out is that one
4:29
Speaker 3: in four women have to leave their department, which is
4:32
Speaker 3: the administrative area. So it might be comparable to a county.
4:39
Speaker 3: I guess, like if we think, but they have to
4:43
Speaker 3: travel to go get an abortion. Again, the distances in
4:47
Speaker 3: the US are much bigger. The abortion deserts are much bigger.
4:51
Speaker 3: But this is a new thing. And also when you
4:56
Speaker 3: look at the statistics which they do have by economic status,
5:01
Speaker 3: women who are more financially precarious are more likely to
5:05
Speaker 3: need abortion care. And so if one in four women
5:08
Speaker 3: has to travel, that means that a disproportionate number of
5:13
Speaker 3: financially precarious women have to travel to get abortions. And
5:18
Speaker 3: while the procedure may be covered by their national health insurance,
5:22
Speaker 3: that travel is not. So there's that gender based violence,
5:28
Speaker 3: and I know I brought it up a few times.
5:29
Speaker 3: I want to put a huge content warning on this
5:32
Speaker 3: section because it's extremely ugly. So you have a lot
5:38
Speaker 3: of a pretty comprehensive set of legal protections, but their
5:42
Speaker 3: enforcement is and the ways in which accusations are taken
5:47
Speaker 3: seriously is really troublesome. Or not taken seriously, it's really troublesome.
5:54
Speaker 3: This came up recently in so you know, I'll talk
5:58
Speaker 3: a little about me too in a minute. But there
6:00
Speaker 3: was also another sort of social media hashtag that was
6:04
Speaker 3: started by an activist called anatumas Off called du blue
6:09
Speaker 3: pen or double punishment, where women who were going to
6:15
Speaker 3: report sexual assault were being uh basically run through the ringer,
6:24
Speaker 3: their witness, their testimony was refused.
6:28
Speaker 4: They were you know.
6:30
Speaker 3: The very traditional sort of oh what were you wearing?
6:33
Speaker 3: Were you drinking? But even beyond that were like one
6:35
Speaker 3: woman called to report a rape and they put her
6:38
Speaker 3: on hold, but she could hear the policeman saying, oh,
6:40
Speaker 3: it's that sled again.
6:44
Speaker 4: Yeah. The numbers of.
6:49
Speaker 3: Rapes that are reported and then from report to investigated,
6:54
Speaker 3: and then from investigation to prosecution, you know that I
6:59
Speaker 3: don't have these data compared to the US, they're not
7:02
Speaker 3: good in either place. So and they are also real
7:07
Speaker 3: you know, very strong social norms that govern that as well.
7:13
Speaker 3: There's a question of feminist side. So what is feminicide.
7:15
Speaker 3: It means it's a woman who was being killed for
7:20
Speaker 3: reasons related to her gender, whether that is that's not
7:23
Speaker 3: exclusively domestic partner violence, because it can also mean like
7:28
Speaker 3: when an in cell mass shooter shows up, or if
7:30
Speaker 3: someone is killed for turning someone down for a date,
7:33
Speaker 3: things like that. This is where it's really hard to
7:38
Speaker 3: compare the US to any other country because feminicides are
7:41
Speaker 3: not tracked in the US. So I can tell I
7:46
Speaker 3: can give you the data from twenty twenty one, but
7:49
Speaker 3: the numbers don't match up exactly. So in France in
7:55
Speaker 3: twenty twenty one, there are nine hundred and thirty homicides,
7:58
Speaker 3: one hundred and twenty two of those are feminis sides.
8:05
Speaker 3: In the US that year there twenty one thousand, four
8:08
Speaker 3: sixty two homicides. So for a country that's about five
8:15
Speaker 3: times has the populations, that's about five times bigger. We
8:19
Speaker 3: just in general have twenty plus times the number of
8:23
Speaker 3: homicides because we have guns mostly.
8:29
Speaker 2: Hell, yeah, that was sarcastic.
8:33
Speaker 3: Of those twenty one thousand, four and sixty two homicides,
8:36
Speaker 3: forty nine hundred and seventy were women, and one third
8:38
Speaker 3: of those are estimated to be domestic partner or intimate
8:42
Speaker 3: partner violence. But that that's not that doesn't map directly
8:47
Speaker 3: onto feminicides. So you could look at it as per population,
8:54
Speaker 3: we have approximately but hard but the numbers aren't the
8:59
Speaker 3: same twice as many.
9:04
Speaker 4: Domestic like intimate.
9:06
Speaker 3: Partner murders as you have feminicides in France. But if
9:10
Speaker 3: you look at the percentage of murders overall that are feminicides,
9:17
Speaker 3: it's kind of the same. So if some if there's
9:23
Speaker 3: a listener who's better at statistics than I am, then
9:28
Speaker 3: those numbers might be make more sense to you. But
9:33
Speaker 3: so and France within Western Europe is that's an elevated number,
9:41
Speaker 3: and there have been attempts to address that. It's a
9:45
Speaker 3: little bit down. Last year, I think there were ninety
9:48
Speaker 3: three identified. That doesn't that's not again that's not all
9:52
Speaker 3: women who are murdered, but women who are specifically murdered
9:56
Speaker 3: for gender based reasons. So it's down, it's not gone.
10:02
Speaker 3: So moving on me too.
10:08
Speaker 5: So I really wish we were recording to like you
10:11
Speaker 5: should publish this record, and just because our faces and
10:14
Speaker 5: the reactions we have in the subjects is just like
10:16
Speaker 5: telling and it's like, so just for your listeners, Gina
10:20
Speaker 5: just literally covered.
10:22
Speaker 2: Their face with a giant's side, wouldn't this subject.
10:27
Speaker 3: So it starts to like it gets sort of immediate
10:30
Speaker 3: uptake in France when in twenty seventeen, when it's with
10:36
Speaker 3: the ball really got rolling, and especially because there were
10:39
Speaker 3: some very high profile people, including as r Argento, who
10:44
Speaker 3: were part of the Weinstein thing but who are very
10:47
Speaker 3: visible on France, it got also some really immediate backlash,
10:55
Speaker 3: public backlash from very high profile people and from very
11:01
Speaker 3: high profile women. There was an open letter signed by
11:05
Speaker 3: about one hundred prominent women, including recognizable film stars like
11:14
Speaker 3: Catherine Denov and people who would have in the.
11:19
Speaker 4: Past called themselves feminists, who said that the right to impose.
11:30
Speaker 3: Oneself sexually was necessary for sexual freedom. So saying that
11:38
Speaker 3: me too was damaging to sexual liberation of men and women.
11:46
Speaker 3: And then you also have this discourse where it's like
11:48
Speaker 3: seduction is a cultural value, and that's where I wish
11:57
Speaker 3: you could have seen Annie's face right there, because so
12:00
Speaker 3: there's this meme. I don't know if you remember the
12:02
Speaker 3: meme of Andrew Cuomo when he got caught having harassed
12:07
Speaker 3: a bunch of his and the headline was I'm not
12:11
Speaker 3: a pervert, I'm just Italian, like because he was like,
12:17
Speaker 3: I'm Italian, I touch people, and people are like.
12:19
Speaker 4: Not like that. And this is where there's.
12:23
Speaker 3: Using the defense of a cultural identity that values certain
12:28
Speaker 3: kinds of contact, whether it's Andrew Cuomo saying I want
12:31
Speaker 3: to touch people, or whether it's people saying we're a
12:34
Speaker 3: very romantic people. Seduction is important to us, and we
12:41
Speaker 3: don't want to be Americans and be too puritanical about
12:47
Speaker 3: these things, which seems to get rid of an awful.
12:52
Speaker 4: Lot of gray area in between.
12:55
Speaker 3: There you so that happened, so that is not uniform
13:00
Speaker 3: at all, but that is that was a big part
13:03
Speaker 3: of the public discourse. So you also get the issue
13:06
Speaker 3: in that the sesa, which are the French oscars. I
13:11
Speaker 3: can't then the year is escaping me right now, but
13:14
Speaker 3: they So France continues to be very friendly to people
13:17
Speaker 3: like Woody Allen, or people who've been accused of sexual misconduct,
13:21
Speaker 3: or people like Roman Polanski who have been convicted of
13:25
Speaker 3: sexual misconduct. And even though they're like, well you need
13:30
Speaker 3: to separate the man from the artist and he won
13:36
Speaker 3: his film won Best Director or Best Picture. I think
13:42
Speaker 3: it was Best Picture at the CESAR.
13:45
Speaker 4: And notably.
13:48
Speaker 3: The actor Adeleanel, wonderful act. I don't know if you've
13:51
Speaker 3: seen the movie Portrait of a Lady on Fire. So
13:55
Speaker 3: the blonde woman in that movie, Adelanel, she got up
14:03
Speaker 3: and walked out yelling shame, which was extremely brave, and
14:10
Speaker 3: she basically wound up retiring from making movies shortly thereafter.
14:18
Speaker 3: She's she's a wonderful sort of lesbian feminist, activist, lover
14:26
Speaker 3: to pieces. She has done a couple of things that
14:28
Speaker 3: are really amazing. One is that she has done that
14:33
Speaker 3: She's spoken out about misconduct over and over again. She
14:37
Speaker 3: brought a lawsuit against a director that she was working
14:41
Speaker 3: with for not specifically rape, but like sexual misconduct with
14:46
Speaker 3: a minor between the when she was between the ages
14:50
Speaker 3: of twelve and fifteen and last week she won, and
14:54
Speaker 3: it was not clear that that was going to be
14:56
Speaker 3: the outcome of that. The court case was so ugly.
15:01
Speaker 3: This sympathy, the amount of sort of public sympathy for
15:04
Speaker 3: him was gross. And he's just been sentenced to four
15:11
Speaker 3: years two of them suspended sentence, two of them in
15:14
Speaker 3: house arrest and five years of not being able to
15:18
Speaker 3: work with minors, which I don't think is enough. But
15:22
Speaker 3: the fact that she went out on a limb and
15:27
Speaker 3: torpedoed her career and she was like a very well regarded,
15:32
Speaker 3: you know, young talent.
15:34
Speaker 4: To make the point that it's not okay.
15:48
Speaker 3: The big me too is children, Like it's not me
15:52
Speaker 3: saying this needs to be talked about.
15:53
Speaker 4: In France.
15:54
Speaker 3: This is a number of public figures. Obviously, that's the
15:58
Speaker 3: case all over. It happens all over, it happens in
16:02
Speaker 3: churches all over, in families all over. But the cultural
16:08
Speaker 3: acceptability of sexualization of children has become a big topic
16:14
Speaker 3: of conversation, and a couple of things have come up.
16:19
Speaker 3: One is a book called Consent, which is by a
16:22
Speaker 3: woman named Vanessa springera where she writes about as a child,
16:26
Speaker 3: like a very young teenager, she was I mean, she
16:33
Speaker 3: was raped, but in the context of a year's long
16:39
Speaker 3: relationship with a very famous author who for decades was
16:44
Speaker 3: very clear that in his part that he was having
16:47
Speaker 3: relationships with very young girls and very young boys, and
16:51
Speaker 3: everyone's like, oh, what a creative man. He's just writing
16:55
Speaker 3: these lovely these wonderful books, and then she came out
17:00
Speaker 3: with this memoir being like no, no me, it was me,
17:04
Speaker 3: a real person, and this created a you know, a
17:12
Speaker 3: public reckoning that has not ended. And then you also
17:17
Speaker 3: have So there's an edited volume that's come out, directed
17:22
Speaker 3: by Iris Bray and Juliet I don't know risbre very well, JULIETROI.
17:28
Speaker 3: They are an amazing sort of writer and activist. But
17:32
Speaker 3: it's the name of the book, is uh, the incest
17:36
Speaker 3: culture like rape culture, as in a cultural norm that
17:42
Speaker 3: makes it possible and makes it okay and sometimes romanticized
17:50
Speaker 3: to abuse children in that way. So again this is
17:54
Speaker 3: not specific to France, but certain cultural norms around it
18:01
Speaker 3: are not the same.
18:02
Speaker 4: From culture to culture.
18:05
Speaker 3: Triuture is also part of a collective volume called Politicizing
18:10
Speaker 3: Childhood and doesn't have a translation yet.
18:13
Speaker 4: I hope it does. It's a good set.
18:15
Speaker 3: Of essays by people from a number of different fields
18:18
Speaker 3: talking about like what are the ways in which we
18:20
Speaker 3: have taken children's agency away in various different situations. Okay,
18:27
Speaker 3: coming to the end of this, I'm sorry. So another
18:30
Speaker 3: thing that's come up recently in the same context is
18:32
Speaker 3: that she's al pellicoat case so for those who don't know,
18:36
Speaker 3: this is an older woman. It was discovered because her
18:40
Speaker 3: husband got caught upskirting someone at a grocery store and
18:44
Speaker 3: his phone got taken away that he had been drugging
18:48
Speaker 3: her and inviting strangers from the internet to come rape
18:51
Speaker 3: her in their home and filming it for about a decade,
18:59
Speaker 3: and he went to trial this past summer with forty
19:05
Speaker 3: nine of the men. There are about thirty men who
19:09
Speaker 3: have not been identified.
19:12
Speaker 4: There are so like what to unpack in that one that.
19:19
Speaker 3: She had been to the doctor many times to be like,
19:22
Speaker 3: I'm falling asleep, I have memory loss, I have like
19:27
Speaker 3: kynecological problems. I don't know what's going on. And at
19:31
Speaker 3: no point did someone propose to her, Hey, I think
19:34
Speaker 3: something really wrong is happening. The men who we are
19:41
Speaker 3: now convicted, because they were all convicted with varying degrees
19:46
Speaker 3: of severity, were from all walks of life, including one
19:50
Speaker 3: of her neighbors, so professional men, working classmen, all ages,
19:57
Speaker 3: fathers married. In addition to the thirty that have not
20:03
Speaker 3: been identified, there have been several who said I sort
20:07
Speaker 3: of was into this, or the husband offered this to me,
20:11
Speaker 3: but I said no. Eventually, and none of them reported it.
20:15
Speaker 3: The doctor who's who supplied the husband with the sedatives
20:20
Speaker 3: has not been unidentified or punished. And there were pictures
20:28
Speaker 3: of their daughter on his phone as well, who had
20:34
Speaker 3: obviously been drugged and it like, and so a lot
20:37
Speaker 3: of things were not addressed. There were a lot of
20:40
Speaker 3: ways in which this was a big wake up call
20:42
Speaker 3: to many people who, for whatever reason, it had not
20:45
Speaker 3: occurred to them that anybody could be a rapist, even
20:49
Speaker 3: if they seem like a nice guy, even if they're
20:52
Speaker 3: so you know that, you know, a good family man, whatever.
20:59
Speaker 3: So this is a big wake up call. It also
21:01
Speaker 3: became an opportunity for some of the most regressive attitudes
21:06
Speaker 3: about consent to be aired in public, both from the
21:11
Speaker 3: defense lawyers and you could say that's their job, but
21:15
Speaker 3: also in the press, etc. So you have the defenses
21:20
Speaker 3: that were you know, I thought she consented and this
21:24
Speaker 3: was just some kink that they had that You had
21:30
Speaker 3: the people whose defense was I thought she was dead.
21:36
Speaker 3: You had the people whose defense was it didn't occur
21:41
Speaker 3: to me. Once I had the husband's consent, it did
21:44
Speaker 3: not occur to me that I also needed the woman's consent.
21:52
Speaker 3: And you also have the defense attorney, because all of
21:57
Speaker 3: this is filmed and the the videos are being shown
22:01
Speaker 3: at the trial, and you have the defense attorney saying, well,
22:08
Speaker 3: he's caressing her, it's not rape. Yeah, it's also gross,
22:18
Speaker 3: and so you have a giant point of reckoning. But
22:24
Speaker 3: what the outcome will be is really unclear, and you
22:28
Speaker 3: have the current I think he's currently the Minister of Justice.
22:32
Speaker 3: He used to be the Minister of the Interior, But
22:34
Speaker 3: who says I think that we should put the idea
22:36
Speaker 3: of consent into the law. That sounds great. The idea
22:41
Speaker 3: of positive consent in the law is what it's like
22:43
Speaker 3: in Spain, it's what it's like in Scandinavia.
22:50
Speaker 4: But there are a couple of rounds with that.
22:52
Speaker 3: One is he's a credibly accused rapist. The only reason
22:58
Speaker 3: I didn't go to trial is that the statute of
23:00
Speaker 3: limitations had run out. His text messages where he was
23:04
Speaker 3: in charge of social housing and imposing his you know,
23:14
Speaker 3: favors if you're going to be euphemistic about it, on
23:18
Speaker 3: women who are trying to get an apartment, those have
23:22
Speaker 3: been leaked. So I don't think he knows very much
23:26
Speaker 3: about consent. And the other issue that was also brought
23:30
Speaker 3: up by Sabrina earn Jen the legal scholar that I
23:33
Speaker 3: was talking about is that once you have consent that
23:37
Speaker 3: is written into law in a specific way, then it
23:39
Speaker 3: becomes a way the question of how to get around
23:41
Speaker 3: it for defense attorneys, which makes it harder for you
23:46
Speaker 3: to say I didn't in some.
23:48
Speaker 4: Ways to say I didn't consent.
23:50
Speaker 3: I don't know if that I agreed without one hundred percent.
23:54
Speaker 3: But it is something to keep in mind when thinking
23:56
Speaker 3: about writing positive consent to laws. And then get the
24:00
Speaker 3: president who comes out and he's like, oh, Gizelle, you're
24:02
Speaker 3: such because one the only way we know about this
24:05
Speaker 3: is that she as a victim, was like, I want
24:08
Speaker 3: it to be an open trial because I don't.
24:11
Speaker 4: I don't. I'm not the one who should be a shamed.
24:12
Speaker 3: They should be a shamed, right, And so you get
24:17
Speaker 3: the president who's out there being like, oh, Giselle.
24:19
Speaker 4: You're a real hero. We're with you.
24:21
Speaker 3: Well, where there were you? Sorry when you were saying
24:26
Speaker 3: that Jerard Depardieux, who also is facing many charges of
24:30
Speaker 3: sexual misconduct, is a national treasure. So oh and the
24:37
Speaker 3: president who was it was recently leaked that he was
24:41
Speaker 3: using a whole bunch of slurs in uh cabinet meetings,
24:47
Speaker 3: including calling the feminine female members of the legislature kukut,
24:53
Speaker 3: which is, by the way, if you're going to use
24:56
Speaker 3: a derogatory term, nineteenth century prostitute is a weird one.
25:02
Speaker 2: So he's throwing it back.
25:04
Speaker 4: That's fine.
25:06
Speaker 2: Oh there's so much. I didn't I don't know what's
25:08
Speaker 2: going on, Like I've not heard anything about tip, Like
25:11
Speaker 2: that's that's news to me.
25:13
Speaker 3: You just oh, yeah, he's he's kay, the newsflash.
25:16
Speaker 4: It's really gross. Really so uh.
25:31
Speaker 3: Then we get the terfism or as they've designated themselves,
25:34
Speaker 3: and they're because they're like, oh, if feminists are trans friendly,
25:37
Speaker 3: then we're femalists, so that there are a lot of
25:43
Speaker 3: people who would identify this way. But there are two
25:47
Speaker 3: sort of public facing figures. One of them is actually
25:50
Speaker 3: one of the former member of the group Femine, which
25:53
Speaker 3: is the news a while ago, like a feminist public
25:57
Speaker 3: activism group. And then she was also one of the
25:59
Speaker 3: founder of the Feminist Collage group that started actually in
26:04
Speaker 3: response to feminicides, making these sort of guerrilla graffiti collages
26:10
Speaker 3: that say like denouncing crimes against women. But there was
26:14
Speaker 3: a split in twenty twenty between this founder, Margaret Stern,
26:19
Speaker 3: and the group itself because the group was like, yeah,
26:25
Speaker 3: we're also defending trans women and she was like, well,
26:29
Speaker 3: then I'm not part of this group anymore. And she
26:34
Speaker 3: has since so with another woman named Dora Muteau, who
26:39
Speaker 3: was a sort of public sex education figure, they have
26:45
Speaker 3: they've come out against the veil. They've they're very anti
26:49
Speaker 3: sex work. So turfs were for wherever you want to
26:52
Speaker 3: say this, And they have gotten as they have been
26:58
Speaker 3: more and more rejected by sort of mainstream feminist discourse,
27:03
Speaker 3: They've gotten closer and closer to far right, even neo
27:07
Speaker 3: Nazi groups. Dora Mutou has gone so far as to
27:11
Speaker 3: really praise Jordan Peterson. Margaret Stern, who was against it,
27:19
Speaker 3: has apologized to the Catholic Church for supporting gay marriage.
27:24
Speaker 3: And yet somehow, when there's this debate over conversion therapy
27:29
Speaker 3: ban in France, who is getting received by a cabinet
27:34
Speaker 3: member these two, and they are on the edge of
27:39
Speaker 3: what's also known as femin nationalism, which is people who
27:43
Speaker 3: identify as feminists but are saying that in order to
27:47
Speaker 3: protect women, we have to protect them from basically Muslims.
27:53
Speaker 4: And immigrant men.
27:55
Speaker 2: What.
27:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, they claim to be universalist feminists, so there's like
28:01
Speaker 3: the same thing is good for all women. That women
28:04
Speaker 3: are most threatened by Islam and in general non European immigration.
28:10
Speaker 3: This is represented publicly by the Nemesis collective that has
28:15
Speaker 3: done a lot of acts of vandalism. They've done false
28:18
Speaker 3: flag acts where they were like wearing a hitche ab
28:22
Speaker 3: or burka and being like, yeah, we were Islamisists, we
28:26
Speaker 3: want Sharia in France.
28:29
Speaker 4: Yeah. And they are also very.
28:32
Speaker 3: Closely related to some neo Nazi violent extremist groups in France.
28:36
Speaker 3: They really took ownership they among with other national righting
28:43
Speaker 3: nationalist groups.
28:44
Speaker 4: So a very tragic thing happened.
28:46
Speaker 3: A young woman named Philipino nod Carnon was killed last
28:50
Speaker 3: fall by someone who had been given a deportation order.
28:56
Speaker 3: This is a similar situation to the Lake and Riley
28:59
Speaker 3: case and the US, where it's it is a tragedy
29:03
Speaker 3: and the person who did it committed a crime. But
29:08
Speaker 3: where this is there is a hyper visibilization of crimes
29:12
Speaker 3: committed against white women by immigrants, and that is using
29:20
Speaker 3: as an excuse to do damage to do process for
29:27
Speaker 3: all immigrants and then Also, in January twenty third, the
29:33
Speaker 3: current Minister of the Interior Bruno was confronted with a
29:37
Speaker 3: member of Nemesis and was like, I want to congratulate
29:39
Speaker 3: this young woman for the uh uh for her activism.
29:44
Speaker 3: And then later he walked that back because he's like, oh, no,
29:47
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, and it's like, well so they So those
29:54
Speaker 3: are kind of some of the hot button issues going
29:59
Speaker 3: on right now. I know that wasn't a real uh
30:04
Speaker 3: let's put it this way, not a joyful note to
30:08
Speaker 3: end on.
30:12
Speaker 1: Well, you know that's that's.
30:14
Speaker 2: What we are over here right right now?
30:18
Speaker 1: Do you have just a brief note about something joyful
30:22
Speaker 1: you are excited about?
30:24
Speaker 3: So I gotta say, the young queer people are awesome.
30:34
Speaker 3: But the amount of like collaboration and public scholarship and
30:40
Speaker 3: art production that I see from them is so heartwarming
30:47
Speaker 3: and like I don't want to be like inspirational in that, like,
30:51
Speaker 3: but no, it really inspired me to go do stuff.
30:55
Speaker 4: And I like, really.
30:58
Speaker 3: Interesting writing projects are projects collaborations. I mean like even
31:03
Speaker 3: the stensil things like that and the way, and so
31:11
Speaker 3: that's something that I'm I'm very excited about. I am
31:17
Speaker 3: concerned about our future. I'm concerned about their future, concerned
31:23
Speaker 3: about a lot of things. But that does make me,
31:27
Speaker 3: that does make me very happy to see it.
31:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's I think that's about right.
31:34
Speaker 1: I think that's how a lot of us feel.
31:37
Speaker 2: Well.
31:38
Speaker 1: Thank you so much Gina for coming on. Please come back,
31:40
Speaker 1: because we gave you these huge broad questions. You nailed it,
31:46
Speaker 1: but we would love to dig in more. But in
31:49
Speaker 1: the meantime, where can the good listeners find you?
31:52
Speaker 3: So I am not on any public facing socials because
31:56
Speaker 3: that's very badly. But if you want to keep up
32:01
Speaker 3: with any of my writing, a bunch of it is
32:03
Speaker 3: an open access So if you google genis Tom you'll
32:07
Speaker 3: find my professional page. A bunch of the articles that
32:10
Speaker 3: I've written are linked there. I've translated a really cool
32:15
Speaker 3: science fiction novel that's already out called Medlito's Dreams. I
32:18
Speaker 3: don't get any more money from that, but I also
32:20
Speaker 3: think it's awesome. And then there's another novel that's more
32:26
Speaker 3: historical fiction by the same author that's coming out in
32:30
Speaker 3: October that I would encourage everybody to check out. That's
32:32
Speaker 3: a it's called The Inner Harbor and it takes place
32:37
Speaker 3: right before the handoff of Macau from Portugal to China
32:41
Speaker 3: in the late nineties.
32:42
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm very intrigued by all of this. Thank you
32:46
Speaker 1: so much for being here, listeners, go check that stuff out.
32:50
Speaker 1: And this brings us to the end of our interview
32:52
Speaker 1: with Gina, who was such a delight, so informative, it's
32:57
Speaker 1: just so knowledgeable. We had so many questions we wanted
33:01
Speaker 1: to ask after the interview was over. So hopefully Gina
33:04
Speaker 1: will come back in the future because there, Yeah, there
33:09
Speaker 1: was a lot more we wanted to get to, right,
33:12
Speaker 1: We covered a lot of ground, that's for sure.
33:14
Speaker 5: For sure.
33:15
Speaker 4: Yes.
33:16
Speaker 1: In the meantime, listeners, if you would like to contact us,
33:20
Speaker 1: you can. You can email us at Hello at stuff
33:22
Speaker 1: Onenever Told You dot com. You can find us on
33:24
Speaker 1: blue Sky at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and
33:28
Speaker 1: TikTok at stuff I've Never Told You. We're also on YouTube.
33:30
Speaker 1: We have a tea public store, and we have a
33:31
Speaker 1: book you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks
33:33
Speaker 1: us always start a super producer, Christenior executive producer and
33:36
Speaker 1: your contributor Joey, Thank you and thanks to you for listening.
33:39
Speaker 1: Stuff I Never Told You is production by Heart Radio
33:41
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