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Lessons from Norway and Texas Real Estate Development with Alek Pedersen - TLP167 · The Land Development Podcast with Ryan Glick

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Understanding the city's incentives and how they think and what interests they have to take care of, and especially their risk return.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: We do development, we think in terms of risk returns in dollars and time spent.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: The city has a different way of looking at risk.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Their return is maybe working their way up a political ladder, but their risk is pretty high, right?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: So they can they can receive terrible backlash from the public, from NIMBY people or whoever wants to complain about a development.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's how they act, right?
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: They are very careful about what they're putting in writing and what they agree to and what they promised.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, what's going on, everybody?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the Land Development Podcast.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I am your host, Ryan Glick.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited today to be joined by Alec Peterson, who is the VP of development at Paladin Partners Commercial Real Estate Services.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Alec, thanks for joining me.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Ryan.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm uh excited to be here.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm excited too.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, this has been a long time coming.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: I know we had a chance to talk earlier this year, and uh your your origin story is super interesting.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm really excited to get into that and also just your path to getting into land development in the US in general, because that's not where you started your journey.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: So um really, really interesting.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so let's go ahead and start there.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so for those listening in that may not be familiar with your origin story, can you walk us through essentially the time maybe around school up through, you know, when you made that decision to move to the US and get into land development here?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it was a gradual process.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I started in in construction in 2010 and saved up some money, went uh to Florence in Italy to study design.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: After about a year after high school, I didn't really know what to do.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I went there on a holiday and and had a friend down there who studied design, interior and product design.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, so I decided to stay, just go for one semester, see how it worked out, and and stayed there for three years.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: And was sort of walking in the rubble of our ancestors in a sense.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: This was like a 1300 uh 13th century renaissance city, right?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you could walk around and do hand sketches of all the all the buildings and learn from all the sort of old masters of industrial and product design and architecture.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um came back to Denmark where I grew up and uh worked in a warehouse, uh sweeping the floors and and you know, basically cleaning the warehouse.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And um I I thought I'd worked a lot on sustainability and and design and how the design could sort of solve big problems.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and I got into a master's degree, a master of science in urban design, uh, which was at the Faculty of Engineering in University of Alborg in northern Denmark.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So that was quite a big shift, but had that sort of that education had the more technical aspect that I was lacking in design, right?
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: So you could sort of land things on on on uh in the laws of physics in a sense, and and make those problems real, right?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh then I worked in Copenhagen, I worked in big industrial uh uh or infrastructural projects, um power pylons, and uh smaller in product design.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: And one friend of mine, he asked me if I wanted to come to Norway because they were building big urban projects, urban planning, and mixed-use uh projects.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I went up there and and did uh some pretty big, interesting projects and uh was there for seven years.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And for the last five years in Norway, I started doing zoning and entitlement.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even before that, actually, but but that's when I really went into commercial land development and applied the design skills and the skills I had learned in zoning and entitlement and more sort of legal groundwork.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And um bumped into a developer.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um this was a guy on the west coast of Norway, uh, probably the biggest man I've ever seen.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not that small myself, but I felt very small in comparison to him.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I met him on on the mountain actually uh the weekend after we had delivered this this big project um in a in a Norwegian fjord.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it was a big multifamily project, um, and um conversion of from industrial to multifamily.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and this big man approaches me and he says, like, good work.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was so I was very flattered but a bit intimidated.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: And um I decided I wanted to go into development, started doing commercial land development, sourcing land, uh sourcing capital, and applying those skills in terms of zoning and entitlement, which were really tough in Norway because it's the law is very transparent.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: You can just go and read it, and it's pretty simple in a sense, but the whole process is very long and cumbersome and entails a lot of risk.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you have to put a lot of money down to secure the land, in some cases you can sign option agreements for several years because of the risk, and because of that sort of sort of artificial uh land restriction, right?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: The regulation creates a sort of uh artificial land restriction, and that became a niche to unlock that land restriction and re-sown land or zone on agricultural land, or in Norway it's mostly forest, right?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so that's what I did.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: And um I found out that in Texas there's a lot of people who who does the same thing, right?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: I was a little bit alone.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: I was you know competing with the big engineering firms, but nobody was creating um let's call it paper lots, uh zoned and entitled land as a product.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I found out that's definitely a thing here, uh especially in Texas.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I got uh got in contact with some people and and usually my LinkedIn would blow up at three o'clock in the afternoon when the Americans woke up, right?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's when the market star uh opened in New York, and that's when all the people were you know slinging deals and and you know uh bullets flying all over the place.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: So so I thought, well, I'll get in contact with some people, maybe I should get, you know, some financial skills.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it uh I was looking into sort of becoming a real developer, so to speak, not just an architect who could do development.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And um then I applied to Texas AM, got to know some more people, and got hijacked to SMU in Dallas, and uh graduated about two weeks ago.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, now I'm applying all those skills and uh here at the Paladin Partners.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: So nice.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you you said something there uh, you know, in the beginning of your story a little bit where you were talking about the age of the cities and the architecture over, you know, in a lot of the European countries compared to the U.S.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the US is as it stands today, is is a relatively young country, right?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we don't have necessarily that extended history, which means that we don't necessarily have a massive history of architecture and design around the country.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: You can see some, you can see some of the borrowed concepts in some of the bigger cities from earlier times.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've switched some of our design practices today.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: But what I'm curious about from your time over there in multiple countries, um, do you feel like that has helped you at all with like giving you a different view into projects and maybe what's possible?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because you can take a look at some of the projects you saw over there where people aren't necessarily looking at them from that lens here in the US.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's two aspects to it.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, like uh sure, America is a young country in a sense, but you know, it's 250 years.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: But when I was in Italy, we were celebrating Italy's 150 years an uh anniversary.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: So just to put that into perspective, I know that Italy has existed for you know thousands of years, like since since Rome, and but but as a unified country, it's actually pretty young.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: So just that's just a side note.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and that leads us kind of into the mentality, right?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because um from what I can tell from my research, a lot of American cities had they looked very similar to the European cities in the eight 1800 and early 1900s.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think that America is more willing to change.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a part of the American spirit.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's interesting.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the the reason I say that is because just like you say, you look at the American cities and they look very modern, right?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: They're heavily influenced by modernism um and the car, right?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're you have giant roads, lots of cars, and very modern buildings with big parking lots, right?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's pretty common here.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas Europe has these old cities that's remained since before uh modernism, uh uh around you know, started around 1920s.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think that America has has changed in in and and has been willing to change with time and has been open to that.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I see that even now, that you know, if it if it makes sense, if it makes sense commercially, if people think it's beautiful, if people think it's interesting, then they're open to that.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: They're open to new ideas.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Even if we were to implement classical art um classical architecture in combination with all the sort of benefits of modern architecture and city planning, we could do that.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, what's what's interesting about that is it's you've got people split on it, right?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because you have a you have a lot of design that's happening that's very modern, but you have a lot of people that look at that and they'll basically equate it to brutalism and like we need to get it, we need to get away from all these straight lines and everything.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get back to um doing development and building with character and curves and and things of that nature.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's we we definitely have an environment where we're very split, I feel like, in this country, where people are very opinionated on on which path to go.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I think you said it best there.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's if you're building something, what is the you know, what does the consumer want?
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like what who you're building it for, what do they want?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you're gonna design design it to the specs of the person who's gonna be purchasing or consuming, you know, the asset that you're you're building.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you have a thought or do you have like a when it comes to your architecture background and everything, did you have a certain path that you preferred one over the other as far as design?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I you I used to design modern architecture and sort of um it was inspired by Dutch architecture.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of uh the Dutch architects are interesting because they don't just look at the world as being beautiful or ugly.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: They they they make you know funny buildings, intimidating buildings.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um they make scary buildings sometimes, and they make it's not just beautiful for them.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: They they can they can attribute all sorts of characteristics to a building, and you can see it right away.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you'll you'll see crazy, like batshit crazy buildings in in uh Rotterdam or Amsterdam, and and it's very interesting.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think that sort of um perspective, it doesn't have to be either beautiful or ugly.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um I don't necessarily agree with them, and and the reason is I went more into classical architecture and look back at what ingredients could be used in the in the classical practices.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: And when you boil it down, it's a matter of geometrics and it's a matter of proportions and mathematics, and it makes kind of perfect sense.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um even with industrial production methods, you can make cheap buildings uh that are that are uh more functional and will last longer uh with with those principles.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think combining classical principles and principles of a classical architecture with modern uh industrial production and economies of scale.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think there's a great missed opportunity right there.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the reason I think that is because I've tested it and I've done the underwriting on it, and it the the numbers make sense, right?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: And they make more sense than many of the buildings we put up today, which are sort of uh after a certain time we've we've, you know, especially architecture is running on default, we're running on standards and sort of uh fumes almost.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of interesting too, because I look back at my own personal views on some of this, even before I was involved in the development industry, and that I had a period of time in my life where I very much liked more modern design.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then as I feel like as I got older, I I didn't like it as much.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like I didn't I didn't like the straight lines anymore.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I started to gravitate toward more of the buildings that were built that were older and were built that I felt like had more character and everything.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: But what you're saying makes a lot of sense because you can still use the aesthetic, you know, design of the outside that we see with some of the more modern approaches to um, you know, creating everything, and you get a little bit of the best of both worlds versus just saying you have to do it this this old way.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to form, you know, you gotta form the um form things a certain way, the old way.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do it a new way because it's not the same or whatever.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that that does resonate.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: That makes a lot of sense.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think it's that's that's how we've always sort of stepped into the future is looking into the past, see what works, pick up the ingredients or teachings or whatever lessons was in the past, and then take the leap into the future with us.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that kind of sidetracked us there a little bit on that topic, but I, you know, getting back to your origin story and you made the move to Texas.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, couple couple questions on that, because I'm I'm definitely curious on how this came to be.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: So you had, you know, you had your own company and you were doing your zoning and entitlement and uh some of your development projects over in Norway.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And at some point, you through maybe connections or something, you made a decision like, hey, I want to do this, but I want to start doing it in the US.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: And specifically, you chose Texas.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: What went into your decision making there to make that move?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that so that was basically the same decision as I use when I find a piece of land, but on a broader scale.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I would zoom out even more just from looking at and sourcing land throughout Europe um to re-establish the supply chains that were disrupted during the Ukraine war.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: I would zoom out even more and look at the globe, right?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I would see, okay, where do I see growth?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Where the uh meaning job growth, population growth, and um generally a good business environment.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and then I would sort of talk to people and see how are these people to you know communicate with and would these people be nice to work with?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that was that was the perfect combination uh in addition to being a competitive shooter and I love hunting and I love big trucks.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought, well, maybe it should be Texas instead of uh Dubai or or Poland, which were the three options I had landed on, right?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: These were the great places where I could do commercial land development on a on a bigger scale.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it was clearly not you didn't just make this decision on a whim and like just ended up in Texas.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: He clearly thought about making the move there, and uh you did did uh schooling there in Texas, and then uh, like we talked about at the outset, currently at uh Paladin Partners.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um for for those who are not familiar with that company uh who are listening in, um could you describe what the company does, the types of projects they work on?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so Paladin Partners is founded by Greg Nelson and Conrad Madsen here in DFW.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um they've done commercial brokerage for industrial brokerage for 25 years and have worked in in uh boutique development, uh industrial development for the last six years.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so it's super interesting to be able to be part of this company and and sort of have uh be able to spin as many plates as possible uh in this firm with some very talented and competent people.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I was kind of thinking about coming into today and and talking with you is trying to do some comparing and contrasting between the US and Norway, where you've had some experience now doing projects in both places.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And do you have any initial thoughts on what you feel are kind of the biggest differences between doing a project in Norway and the US?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: You had mentioned already that things are probably more clear as to what the requirements are in Norway.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's just it takes time and you have probably more risk financially with having to put money down up front and everything.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: But what what else is are the key differences between the the two countries when it comes to development?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: So a big part is how much power uh regulators like the city and the municipality, how much power they have over land.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's a big difference, right?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Here you have much more free uh market-driven incentives and and for all parties, even the city is incentivized to to sort of accommodate the free market because everybody benefits from it.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I was surprised at how much how much is written into law or regulation in Norway that is uh in principle self-regulated here.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean uh the whole the whole point is you you won't make it you won't build a bad building here or do anything malicious because you won't be able to do business.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: People would don't want to do business with you, right?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: So so there's a sort of um self-regulating um social uh codex almost.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I'm sure, I'm sure a lot of it is due to the fact that a lot of Texans are Christian as well.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even if you don't believe in God, the Ten Commandments are pretty good, you know, it works.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it I I just think uh that was that was surprising, that was interesting.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: And on the other hand, a lot of things in Norway are very transparent.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, mapping is super effective, everything is digital.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um basically they've mapped all of Norway with lidour scanners, right?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: So you know you can just buy finished maps with topography, with uh geotechnical, uh environmental, whatever.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: You can you can do a desktop review very, very easily uh and just online.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: So here you're depending more on knowing the right people and and working with them and creating those relationships, right?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because the information is not flowing straight uh through your you know, fiber cable into your computer, it's flowing through people and through the phone.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I find that fascinating and and interesting.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that might be an answer to another thing I was gonna ask you as well is uh when you think about the US, I mean, we obviously are very, you know, just the nature of how the country is set up with different states and different states' rights, and then you take it down another level, you have counties and then you have municipalities, and uh within each of those areas, there's different governing bodies who largely might be responsible for some of that GIS data and everything, which does, you know, it can make it challenging.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you, what you described about Norway and having access to everything nationwide would be a super powerful thing.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: What uh besides that, are there any other things that the US could learn from you know some of your experiences, whether it's Norway or any of the other countries that you were doing projects in?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: Are there things that we could we could borrow from there and and maybe would help make some of our projects better or more efficient?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think maybe the digital aspect, there is a there is a sense in Norway that that you can, let's say, create maps or information or and what whatever whatever you need to for land development and make it available to as many people as possible.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: In most cases it costs some money, but in some cases you can get a lot.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: You can get a lot for free, actually.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: I find that interesting because it makes a lot of the process more efficient.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think that's that's probably the the best case I can uh I can think of.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and it just standardizes a lot of things.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: So so and what I mean with that is when as soon as you sort of map something out with, let's say, a LiDAR scanner or or a drone, um you standardize, you standardize the premise for a land development.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody can look at the map and see this is where uh the parcel starts and ends, and uh this is how the topography is moving across the parcel and how we sort of approach this.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a drawing sort of gathers people around the table and doesn't leave too much up to interpretation.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: So uh a few other things too.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: I want to dig into a few other things in your experience that you've had in the past.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, having done quite a bit of entitlement work and zoning, and um, I know a lot of that was done in Norway, but do you have some initial thoughts about like what are the biggest risks with those that you feel like most developers miss or a lot of new developers may miss when it comes to thinking about entitlements and zoning?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Are you thinking here in DFW or in general or in Norway?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: I would say I would say in general.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and because I want to get into some of the projects or project, yeah, the projects that you've done in DFW or that you've been involved in, but I would imagine at this point in your career, a lot of what you've done has been in Norway compared to here in the US.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I mean you can pull from any any of your experience.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think um a lot of the most underestimated part is understanding the city and their incentives, right?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're serving the public interest.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a difference between Norway and DFW there, right?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because the public has an interest in growth and building and development here to a greater degree in than in Norway, right?
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because just because of how the culture is and how how it's sort of how the people just uh looks at business and growth and and especially in industrial, right?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: It can seem a bit sensitive sometimes.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Why would you build a very very large box uh on either here it's a cornfield or in Norway it would be in the forest, right?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: So understanding the city's incentives and how they think and what interests they have to take care of, and especially their risk return, right?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we think if we do development, we think in terms of risk returns in dollars and time spent.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: The city has a different way of looking at risk, and they don't really have a lot of return.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Their return is maybe working their way up a political ladder, um, but their risk is is pretty high, right?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: So they can they can receive terrible backlash from the public, from NIMBY people or whoever wants to complain about a development.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so they that's how they act, right?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: They they are very careful about what they're putting in writing and and what they agree to and what they promise, right?
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: So in order to build that bridge between the developer who wants to, you know, build yesterday and the city who has to go through certain steps and certain um compliance uh deliverables and certain sort of checklists in compliance, um there's there's a there's a gap to bridge right there.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's definitely possible to align those incentives, um, even though they're so different and kind of opposed, right?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: You can still align them towards a common goal, and that's what I've been working with um in basically all my projects, and that's been, I guess, the hardest part in Norway because the city usually at the very best wants to control what you develop and when and where.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Is that uh so on that note, you'd mentioned like politics, the politics of things, uh, that tends to be probably one of the most brought up challenges here in the US, just even throughout the country.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it's different city to city, wherever you're developing, but it tends to be one of the biggest problems people bring up.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think, even with the challenges that people talk about here in the US and what you've experienced so far in the DFW area, do you think that our political environment is still easier to develop in versus what it is like over in Norway?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it not even apples to apples to try to compare the two?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, Norway changed a lot while I was there.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it was very business friendly when I came in 2018, and then it changed a lot.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think maybe they just had too much business.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: They got fed up with it, I guess.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I was born in Norway, by the way, so so I have half my family is is in Norway and half is in Denmark.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think the big difference is in in in DFW, um like I said, people want business and and they see the benefit of it.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: They see more benefits than uh disadvantages.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think that's just that also has to do with private property rights.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Because private property here is very important, it seems very important to Americans, it's very important to me.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and I respect other people's private property because of it, because I want them to respect mine, right?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a very big difference.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: In let's say Norway, in a lot of European countries, um there's a fundamental idea that you can share with each other and you kind of have to share with each other, and that your private property isn't necessarily only yours.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, if it serves the the a greater good or the public good, then it's theirs.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's easier to expropriate.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and it doesn't even have to be direct expropriation, it can just be zoning, you know, because every four years the city makes uh a big zoning map and that completely changes the structure of private property, it completely changes what what your property can be used for, right?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: So and they have you know unrestricted privilege to do that.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a that's a completely different mindset.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um where and I also think here in America people would fight back.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you'd think so.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: In in most cases they would.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they would also have have have good reason to and sort of good tools to do that.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think there's a there's more I sense um more natural sort of checks and balances here in the U.S.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm sure people listening in are tired of me trying to make comparisons between the country the countries and everything.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um I you know, I I think another thing from your past though that is is interesting and could be helpful for people listening in is we because we do get a lot of people, whether they're engineers or architects that do want to get into land development, you made that move, starting out in architecture and and land design and urban planning, and then just you know, you shifted into more of a focus on land development.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: What was that process like for you making that jump?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: And do you feel like you're getting your background and your start on the architecture side has been really beneficial to you when it comes to land development?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I I definitely think it has.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's because I can I often have a lot of tools that can sort of create the glue between, you know, putting a land a piece of land on the contract and then actually taking the steps towards making a building.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I can always make, I can always design a site plan, I can organize the space, make it sort of more feasible.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there like I said before, there's something tangible to a drawing um that everybody can relate to.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a great benefit when we're raising equity.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: If we have a and and even people won't will never mention it that but well they they will sometimes maybe mention it, but looking at a beautiful drawing is just uh people get mesmerized, you know, especially if it's a big building on a beautiful drawing, they'll they want to touch it.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I I've I've seen them, they react, you know, with their body, they will they will start touching the paper and and you know bring it in.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just the reason I mentioned that is a cue because we're we think we're very rational and we try to underwrite land and we we try to put numbers on it, and but deep down we're really emotional, right?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: And we have to love a deal in order to want to make it because it's tough, it's it's a really tough process.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And to sort of digest that process, to go back to your question, um, you need some of those tools that architects have.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: You need to to make drawings, you need to uh, you know, make renderings and sort of make it tangible and to some extent lovable because an Excel sheet is just not that interesting.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I to dig into that a little bit deeper, so you know, having these renderings that you're able to show and peep allowing people to be able to emotionally connect to the idea of what that land could be used for, some ideas you have for a building that could go there, even if it's not the building that even ends up ultimately getting built.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that's the piece that I wanted to ask you about is, and I'm assuming that's the case, right?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a matter of mocking something up visually, almost like staging a house, right?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: If somebody's gonna buy a house that's empty, it's hard for them to go in there and see their own furnishings inside that.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: But if you put furnishings in there and they walk through it and they see it, it's easier for them to envision their own family living there.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: I would imagine this is a very similar psychology.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: I remember uh you're totally spot on because I remember there was a developer in New York, he would buy old apartments and fix them up or old buildings and fix them up, and he would paint furniture on the floor, just white, white paint where there's a bed, you know, you can see uh uh some chairs and whatever.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: And people could start imagining, you know, and the same goes for building physical models, they're super effective.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: And the same goes for mock-ups when you're you know close to to shovel ready, or at least you you've started casting the slab for the building.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a facade mock-up, you can start seeing the building in front of you, right?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: But you need you need those techniques and you need those steps in order to sort of feed people the idea and the dream.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because let's face it, uh unless the building's there, it's all a dream on until the building stands, right?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just like uh it's not a plane until you fly it, right?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: So you you you need to keep that dream alive and feed it and until there's a finished building on on the land, right?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: And um that's that's a big part of it.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it that's toughest in the beginning.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Do you uh with uh where you're at today and uh your role right now, what is uh what types of projects or what do you have going on today that you're able to talk about?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we're developing um two sites south of Fort Worth, and uh then we're so sourcing land all over DFW.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um one side is uh 1.85 million square feet industrial um in three buildings, and uh the other side is two buildings uh um which are 250, well, yeah, just shy of 300,000 square feet each building.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we we really believe in this size because there are no other sites.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: We've we've looked through the whole map, all the way from Fort Worth and down.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um and these these are the best sites.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: So uh what we're working on right now is basically getting the equity down there because we're already starting to see tenants, and what's interesting is tenants will move faster than than the capital, at least the institutional capital.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: So um so that's a curious process, and and it's just like you know, all land development is a chicken and egg problem.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: There, and I think it'll it'll be a chicken and egg problem until there's a finished building, like I mentioned before.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: So is it a matter of so is it just a it's a matter of essentially you have you have the site, you have, you know, you're working basically both sides of it of bringing bringing the money to the table, but also bringing the tenants to the table, and then then the building essentially gets built at that point.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is that how the process kind of works at a super high level?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's exactly it.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we source the land, we source the capital and the tenant, uh, and whoever pulls the trigger first gets the land right.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: Gotcha.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's really interesting.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have uh so I know these are your current projects that you're working on, but I like to ask on the show about whether there's a favorite project that you've worked on over the years, basically throughout all of your time doing development or even being involved on the architecture side, do you have a project that really stands out in your mind that you always think back on?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, man, that was a that was a fun project to work on.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's a tough question because usually Okay, let me be honest.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is a strange process of working hard on a project, is that I put so much energy and blood, sweat, and tears into the project that usually the best projects when I'm done with them, I kind of hate them.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, that's fair, it's just how it is, and because they they take so much energy and and um I have to fall in love with these projects that break my heart over and over again, and so I start hating them.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it it it it it goes over it, but it takes a bit of time because it's it it's tough.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I would say that's a that's a first response that I've gotten like that, but it's it's super honest, and I definitely understand where you're coming from with it, and uh, so that's that's pretty funny, but but very understanding as well.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I think the most interesting project is really the one we're working now on now in DFW because it's the biggest.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so interesting to just plunge in and be able to talk to the city, and they're open and interested, and they want development here, right?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we're we're making it a giant building.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's the one that's most interesting, really.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's exciting.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is exciting.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's uh shift into the last segment, which is a lightning round.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got five questions for you based on your uh experiences and everything throughout your career.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: First one, do you think new developers should specialize in one asset class or but or diversify into multiple asset classes?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: With the market that's here right now, uh it's all about asset selection.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I wouldn't take too much risk and plunge into assets that you don't know anything about, but you can find great assets and maybe they're 1% of the whole market uh in in any asset class.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is there's so much that you can't really make a return on.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, second one.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: What's the most common rookie mistake you see in land development?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Rookie mistake is to think that it's easy.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's the rookie mistake.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that you can show up with a great idea, and that'll be enough.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you see that a lot.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, third one.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: What's the best piece of advice you've ever received in your career?
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think my best piece of advice has been the people I've worked with, my bosses, who just threw me into deep water and didn't really give me any advice.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: And just you know, good luck, buddy.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: You're out of the nest.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Make it happen.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: All right, fourth one.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: What's the most expensive lesson you've learned on a deal?
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: That is basically I when I haven't vetted my partnerships good enough, that's been the most expensive.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just hard because you know, you go into partnership with great people and it starts out good and sometimes it just doesn't turn out very well, and maybe you couldn't have vetted them.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that's just the case, but it helps um singling out some some good people, good partnerships.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Is there any, and I'm gonna dig a little deeper into that one just because I'm interested, is there anything that you do now that maybe you didn't do in the past to just really vet somebody out and make sure it's a good partnership?
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it just more about getting all parties on the same page with an agreement that just it makes sure nobody can really do something just because human nature may lead someone down a path that like might you know screw another partner, you know, on the deal.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: The the paperwork has to be there.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: You have you have to be super clear and as simple as possible, right?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that everybody understands the terms and you can solve any conflict without going to court, right?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: I've never been to court, but I don't want to go.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: So let's just fix this, all right?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: And um the other thing is, you know, you you have to develop a gut feeling and without making mistakes that hurt, you you won't you won't develop it because when you when you're hurt a couple of times, uh then you get that feeling back as soon as you know a red flag goes off.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a good thing.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just how it is.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's the human condition.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, last one.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you weren't in real estate or architecture or anything related to the industry, what would you be doing instead?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: Pillage and plunder.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: Explain, explain.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: What would you know?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is it because everybody calls me a Viking?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I gotcha.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm leaning into that, and and they're like, well, yeah, I get I guess we like you know, we didn't just disappear, we just changed a little bit.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I love it.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'd love to be a movie director.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, interesting.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to what type of movies?
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm I'm writing notes on a Western right now, and uh I won't give away all the ideas, but think of visually think about uh the Italian artist Caravaggio.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: Caravaggio he uses a technique called Chiaro Scudo, which is basically very dark paintings with some super um some super uh exaggerated points of lighting on the main characters.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's a very strong impression you get from these paintings, and that would be cool to make into a Western.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's the visual cue of the Western.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah, that's really cool.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'll have to uh I I'm drawing a blank on his name, but I've had somebody on the podcast previously, I'll have to find his name and I'll send it to you.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: But he he, for the longest time, has he's written many uh movie scripts for some pretty big name movies and everything.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: So he's been involved in the industry um for a number of years, and he just you know he got into real estate on the side while he was doing that, so he'd probably be a good person for you to connect with.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll I'll shoot his information to you off off this episode.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love that.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: That would be great.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, um, I guess that brings us to a close here.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: What's uh what's the best way for people tuning in to connect with you and to learn more about your company?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um the best way is to find me on LinkedIn, uh Alexander with K S.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that is A-L-E-K-S-A-N-D-E-R Peterson with a D.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, they can call me on LinkedIn.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um hook me up um on LinkedIn and uh they can find my phone number as well.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: So just give me a call.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I will put uh that information on the show notes page for those of you listening in.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: If you look down in the description, you'll see a link there to the show notes page, and on the show notes page will be those uh contact details for Alec.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: So um, Alec, really appreciate you hopping on here and sharing your story and sharing uh your experiences and everything.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Super interesting, uh, very unique compared to a lot of the Guests I've had on in the past, so uh really enjoyed this.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Ryan.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: Appreciate it.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: This was this is a great experience.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: All right, guys, that's all for this episode.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not already subscribed, please click that button.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: We'd love to have you back for the next one.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, we will talk to you all next week.