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Christianity and Marginalized People: Part 7.2 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephan
0:07
Speaker 1: never told you a production of iHeartRadio.
0:18
Speaker 2: And we are back for the second part, which apparently
0:21
Speaker 2: there's gonna be a third part because I I just
0:24
Speaker 2: can't apparently keep things together of Christianity and the marginalized
0:29
Speaker 2: people and specifically the queer communities and religious trauma. And honestly,
0:33
Speaker 2: I should have expected this because when it comes to
0:36
Speaker 2: attacks on both women and the queer community, it is
0:40
Speaker 2: non stop and it continues every day. The rhetoric continues
0:45
Speaker 2: every day. So yes, this is part two of now
0:48
Speaker 2: what it's going to be the three part series. Yeah,
0:51
Speaker 2: three part the way three parts of this episode of
0:54
Speaker 2: the series that is elongated to being like a literal
0:57
Speaker 2: season and a half.
0:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I just wanted to make sure.
1:02
Speaker 2: Yes, you're correct. And I think at the by the
1:04
Speaker 2: end of this, we need to replay the entire thing
1:06
Speaker 2: in one setting so that it's actually connected and people
1:09
Speaker 2: are like, what is what's happening?
1:11
Speaker 3: We could make a playlist.
1:13
Speaker 2: I think we need to make a playlist and maybe
1:15
Speaker 2: do like a feature on the Saturdays to actually just
1:19
Speaker 2: recover everything. I think that might be a plan that
1:22
Speaker 2: we have to have. So for those of you who
1:24
Speaker 2: could not take this type of sad conversation enough for
1:28
Speaker 2: the first time round, we may have a replay through
1:33
Speaker 2: because we are sadistic apparently.
1:36
Speaker 1: No back to back to back, where to go? Right?
1:43
Speaker 2: And speaking of as before content warning to all the
1:47
Speaker 2: grossness and hatefulness that is tangled into this rhetoric and
1:51
Speaker 2: behind the anti LGBTQ plus movement, and it includes assault,
1:57
Speaker 2: sexual assault, sexual mental and physical abuse use that will
2:01
Speaker 2: be mentioned, all the practices and unfortunately we are starting
2:05
Speaker 2: this episode where we left off all the part one
2:09
Speaker 2: about how the organizations like Focus on the Family uses
2:13
Speaker 2: because it didn't just use once upon a time and it
2:16
Speaker 2: is still using harmful practices like conversion therapy as a
2:20
Speaker 2: part of their anti LGBTQIA plus tactics. Oh, take a
2:26
Speaker 2: deep breath, everyone, take a deep breath. Any because it's
2:30
Speaker 2: going to be a shorter episode. I think because the
2:32
Speaker 2: way I wrote it. I say this at the beginning
2:34
Speaker 2: knowing how many pages it is, but who knows what
2:37
Speaker 2: this discussion brings. But because it is a heavy topic.
2:41
Speaker 2: Conversion therapy in itself is so gross and so traumatic
2:45
Speaker 2: that it is going to be just specifically on that.
2:48
Speaker 2: So yeah, sorry, So let's talk about the history of
2:51
Speaker 2: conversion therapy first and then we're going to dive into
2:54
Speaker 2: what is happening today because we need to be paying attention.
2:58
Speaker 2: So conversion therapy, when it comes to the origins of
3:02
Speaker 2: conversion therapy, it is sad and it is gruesome. The
3:06
Speaker 2: history of it is gross. So what exactly is it.
3:10
Speaker 2: Here's what the HRC or the Human Rights Center says. Quote.
3:14
Speaker 2: Reparative or conversion therapy is a dangerous practice that targets
3:18
Speaker 2: LGBTQ plus youth and cease to change their sexual or
3:22
Speaker 2: gender identities. So called conversion therapy, sometimes known as reparative therapy,
3:26
Speaker 2: is a range of dangerous and discredited practices that falsely
3:30
Speaker 2: claim to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity
3:34
Speaker 2: or expression.
3:35
Speaker 1: And here's a bit more detail from a research article
3:37
Speaker 1: for ScienceDirect dot com.
3:39
Speaker 3: Quote.
3:40
Speaker 1: Religion based LGBTQA plus conversion practices frame all people as
3:45
Speaker 1: potential heterosexuals whose gender aligns with their birth sex in
3:50
Speaker 1: a CYS gender binary model of male and female sexes.
3:53
Speaker 1: Deviation from this heterosexual CIS gender social identity model is
3:58
Speaker 1: cast as curable sexual brokenness, and it goes into a
4:03
Speaker 1: deeper explanation, saying religion based lgbtqa plus conversion practices are
4:10
Speaker 1: grounded in the pseudoscientific conviction that all people are born
4:14
Speaker 1: with the potential to develop heterosexual attraction and identity with
4:18
Speaker 1: a gender identity that accords with that assigned to them
4:21
Speaker 1: at birth. Sis gender proponents of lgbtqa plus conversion practices
4:26
Speaker 1: view lgbtqa plus people as suffering from sexual brokenness that
4:31
Speaker 1: can be cured. This ideology of sexual brokenness usually conflates
4:37
Speaker 1: and confuses differences between sexual orientation and gender identity, seeing
4:42
Speaker 1: any diversity in these attributes as having a common atiology
4:47
Speaker 1: and treatment. Full membership and participation in faith communities can
4:52
Speaker 1: be dependent on lgbtqa plus people of faith committing to
4:57
Speaker 1: chastity and seeking healing for their sexual brokenness. The ideology
5:03
Speaker 1: that informs lgbtq A plus conversion practices thus posits that
5:08
Speaker 1: lgbtq A plus subjectivity and spiritual belonging are incommensurable. This
5:14
Speaker 1: has led to the development of cultures that promote and
5:17
Speaker 1: engage in various practices directed at changing are suppressing lgbtq
5:23
Speaker 1: A plus sexual orientation and gender identities.
5:27
Speaker 2: Right, and as we're speaking from the study, they're quoting
5:30
Speaker 2: things like sexual brokenness, like they're putting those in quotes
5:33
Speaker 2: to let you know this is what they say. So
5:36
Speaker 2: I wish you could see And because she's actually doing
5:38
Speaker 2: the quotes wider fingers while she's reading this project, I
5:47
Speaker 2: get it, you see pause. But it's quite fun. I'm like,
5:49
Speaker 2: no one knows what she's doing except for me. I
5:52
Speaker 2: appreciate it. I appreciate it all. But we just want
5:55
Speaker 2: to like firmly say, there's a lot of these things
5:58
Speaker 2: that we sound If it sounds like that sounds gross,
6:01
Speaker 2: why would you say that is probably quotes If we
6:04
Speaker 2: don't say that out loud, like, we're gonna try to
6:06
Speaker 2: emphasize it because this is if you know us, you know,
6:10
Speaker 2: this is not our language. But then again, if AI
6:12
Speaker 2: decides it's still our words, oh oh, we're in trouble.
6:16
Speaker 2: Please know we are not in support of any of this. Okay,
6:21
Speaker 2: I feel like we might have to put that at
6:22
Speaker 2: the beginning and the end of every episode because of
6:24
Speaker 2: AI changing our words around. I'm kind of scared. Anyway,
6:28
Speaker 2: that's a whole different episode. Of course, with this type
6:34
Speaker 2: of unsanctioned and unethical practices as seen by the medical community.
6:38
Speaker 2: It can be difficult to have one specific term or definition.
6:42
Speaker 2: And when I say unethical and unsanctioned, it has obviously
6:45
Speaker 2: been criticized and disavowed by much pretty much all of
6:50
Speaker 2: the professional h organizations out there, So, like the AMA,
6:54
Speaker 2: all of them have said this is not correct. We
6:56
Speaker 2: don't believe this anymore, This does not work. So according
7:00
Speaker 2: to a documentation from a twenty twenty UN consultation on
7:04
Speaker 2: conversion therapy, it is difficult to define it in a
7:08
Speaker 2: straightforward manner. The article says, it's quite difficult to get
7:12
Speaker 2: a grip on what we call conversion therapy or reparative therapy.
7:16
Speaker 2: There are many definitions. For example, quote it is the
7:20
Speaker 2: pseudoscientific practice of trying to change in individual sexual orientation
7:23
Speaker 2: from homosexual or bisexual to heterosexual using psychological or spiritual interventions,
7:29
Speaker 2: in this case leaving out the attempts of sub treatments
7:32
Speaker 2: to also eradicate a transgender identity. An important reason why
7:37
Speaker 2: it's so difficult to define is that we deal with
7:39
Speaker 2: a multitude of practices which are not only offered in
7:42
Speaker 2: separate organizations that consider converting homosexuality or transgender identity as
7:48
Speaker 2: their main aim, but also inside the realm of churches
7:51
Speaker 2: and church services, where these practices will be labeled or
7:55
Speaker 2: can be labeled as for example, in exorcism that's en
7:58
Speaker 2: quotes quote healing ministry or simply quote prayers and are
8:04
Speaker 2: predominantly seen as religious practices. Another important reason for the
8:09
Speaker 2: difficulty of definition is the constant change in how faith
8:12
Speaker 2: organizations label these practices themselves, being very aware of the
8:17
Speaker 2: public concerns that these treatments may raise. By doing so,
8:21
Speaker 2: they avoid being trapped in a definition that renders their
8:25
Speaker 2: offered treatment or practices as harmful, unethical, or potentially illegal
8:30
Speaker 2: from the perspective of law.
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Speaker 1: And Though this idea of changing or suppressing sexual orientation
8:35
Speaker 1: and identity probably could be dated centuries ago, one of
8:39
Speaker 1: the first recorded mentions of it was in eighteen ninety
8:43
Speaker 1: nine by a German psychiatrist who claim to have turned
8:46
Speaker 1: a gay man straight. According to the psychiatrists, he told
8:50
Speaker 1: people at a hypnosis conference that all they needed was
8:54
Speaker 1: forty five hypnosis sessions and a few trips to the brothel.
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Speaker 1: According to history, Through hypnosis, he claimed he had manipulated
9:03
Speaker 1: the man's sexual impulses, diverting them from his interest in
9:07
Speaker 1: men to a lasting desire for women. Hmm.
9:12
Speaker 3: How much did he charge for these sessions anyway? And
9:18
Speaker 3: many credit.
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Speaker 1: This as the start of the pseudoscience of conversion therapy.
9:23
Speaker 1: In the late nineteenth century, doctors and psychiatrists looked at
9:27
Speaker 1: homosexuality as something that needed and could be treated. It
9:31
Speaker 1: was like even included in their manuals beliefs that causes
9:35
Speaker 1: of homosexuality could be found in men's testicles, or that
9:39
Speaker 1: all humans were born bisexual, that homosexuality was something that
9:43
Speaker 1: was conditioned, like a lot of misunderstandings, right.
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Speaker 2: I will say so the whole like being born bisexual
9:51
Speaker 2: theory was Freud. But he did not see that as
9:55
Speaker 2: a disease. So give him credit for that. For one thing.
10:01
Speaker 2: He did not see that as a disease, unlike everybody else.
10:05
Speaker 2: And as we mentioned earlier, we were talking about the
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Speaker 2: way that the narrative changes and the definition changes. Please
10:11
Speaker 2: keep that in mind because we're going to come back
10:12
Speaker 2: to it and why that's important in this conversation and
10:16
Speaker 2: all these types of theories that led us to the
10:18
Speaker 2: early quote treatments. And I'm putting quotes here because we
10:21
Speaker 2: want to emphasize this is not true and was a
10:24
Speaker 2: theory that was damaging and traumatizing, but it was the
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Speaker 2: early ideas and theories at the time. So quotes here
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Speaker 2: when I say treatments, and again a quote from theistory
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Speaker 2: dot Com of some of the practices at the time. Quote.
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Speaker 2: Some LGBTQ people were given electroconvulsive therapy, but others were
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Speaker 2: subjected to even more extreme techniques like lebotomies. Other quote.
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Speaker 2: Treatments included shocks administered through electroys that were implanted directly
10:50
Speaker 2: into the brain. Robert Gelbraith Heath, a psychiatrist in New
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Speaker 2: Orleans who pioneered the technique, used this form of brain stimulation,
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Speaker 2: along with higher process and heterosexual pornography to quote change
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Speaker 2: the sexual orientation of gay men. But though he contended
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Speaker 2: he was able to actually turn gay men straight, his
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Speaker 2: work has since been challenged and criticized for his methodology.
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Speaker 2: I would hope so. An offshoot of these techniques was
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Speaker 2: a version therapy, which was founded on the premise that
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Speaker 2: if LGBTQ people became disgusted by homosexuality, they would no
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Speaker 2: longer experience same sex desire. Under medical supervision, people were
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Speaker 2: given chemicals that made them vomit when they, for example,
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Speaker 2: looked at photos of their lovers. Others were given electrical shocks,
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Speaker 2: sometimes to their genitals while they looked at gay pornography
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Speaker 2: or cross dressed, which.
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Speaker 1: Just messed up, shall we say. And though this idea
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Speaker 1: was eventually dismissed and seen as cruel and traumatic by
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Speaker 1: the medical world, and with the psychiatric field removing homosexuality
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Speaker 1: from the DSM, which is a manual of sex chiatric
12:00
Speaker 1: disorders in nineteen seventy three, religious groups were reticent in
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Speaker 1: letting the practice go, and several organizers still practice it today.
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Speaker 1: Many religious organizations have rephrased the idea, calling it the
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Speaker 1: now known term of conversion therapy or reparative therapy, and
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Speaker 1: even just Christian counseling. Today, their methods vary, perhaps less
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Speaker 1: electroshock and lobotomies, but can include talk therapy, which you know,
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Speaker 1: there's a lot of like healthy dose of guilt and
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Speaker 1: shame all the way up to extracisive. Here's the quote
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Speaker 1: from that history dot com article. At gay conversion camps
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Speaker 1: and conferences, LGBTQ people were isolated from family and friends, hypnotized,
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Speaker 1: told to pray until their homosexuality subsided, instructed to beat
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Speaker 1: effigies of their parents, mocked coach on proper genders, and
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Speaker 1: told their sexuality was unnatural and sinful.
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Speaker 2: Right, and by the way, that idea that everybody is
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Speaker 2: again born bisexual and then conditioned. That's kind of still
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Speaker 2: a belief in some of the religious organizations, except they
13:18
Speaker 2: wouldn't say that out loud, except for the part that
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Speaker 2: are like, you know, you can resist this, Yes, this
13:23
Speaker 2: is sin just calling it that way. So again, a
13:26
Speaker 2: lot of the rhetoric is very religious, and we're gonna
13:29
Speaker 2: see that because any I read through more Christian articles
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Speaker 2: that I'm so sad.
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Speaker 3: I believe it, Samantha why.
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Speaker 2: But the saddest part is I could tell you word
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Speaker 2: for word why they said that what they did, and
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Speaker 2: I taught some of those things, and I'm very sad
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Speaker 2: about this. But all that to say is you're going
13:48
Speaker 2: to see this turn of phrase essentially to try to
13:51
Speaker 2: convince you that this is not bad for you, that
13:55
Speaker 2: we're just we're trying to impede on their freedom of
13:58
Speaker 2: speech anyway. So statistically it does not work, and in
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Speaker 2: fact it does. The opposite, oftentimes doing more harm. And
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Speaker 2: here's a quote from the Science Direct study. Studies have
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Speaker 2: shown heightened suicidality, increased drug and alcohol use, increased risk
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Speaker 2: of homelessness, poor mental health, and poor economic participation among
14:22
Speaker 2: people who have experienced conversion practices. Studies of young people
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Speaker 2: who have experienced conversion practices have shown negative impacts on
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Speaker 2: identity formation and family relationships. Note that many survivors of
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Speaker 2: conversion therapy will need treatment for post traumatic stress disorder
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Speaker 2: and post religious trauma. In a recent Australian study, Australian
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Speaker 2: LGBTQ plus youth aged fourteen to twenty one years who
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Speaker 2: were exposed to conversion practices were around four and a
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Speaker 2: half times more likely to have experienced homophobic, physical and
14:53
Speaker 2: verbal harassment than those who did not, and three times
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Speaker 2: more likely to have experienced sexual harassment. They were also
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Speaker 2: at least one and a half times more likely to
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Speaker 2: have a mental health diagnosis and three times more likely
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Speaker 2: to have PTSD diagnosis. They were also at an increased
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Speaker 2: risk of homelessness, particularly on the basis of being LGBTQ plus.
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Speaker 2: Note that the trauma from religion based conversion practices is
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Speaker 2: distinct from and compounds already established trauma related to heteronormativity, transphobia,
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Speaker 2: and homophobia. In addition to these harms, identified further negative
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Speaker 2: impacts anger as a response to deceptive claims and mistreatment,
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Speaker 2: grief at loss of times, opportunity and youth, increased sense
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Speaker 2: of shame, escalation of high risk sexual behavior, and impairment
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Speaker 2: of self concept due to hyatrogenic counseling practices.
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Speaker 3: YEP.
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Speaker 1: A statistical breakdown of the harms of conversion therapy from
16:03
Speaker 1: glad dot org San Francisco State University found that, compared
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Speaker 1: with LGBTQ young people who were not rejected or were
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Speaker 1: only a little rejected by their parents and caregivers because
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Speaker 1: of their gay or transgender identity, highly rejected to LGBTQ
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Speaker 1: people were eight point four times more likely to report
16:22
Speaker 1: having attempted suicide, five point nine times more likely to
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Speaker 1: report high levels of depression, three point four times more
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Speaker 1: likely to use illegal drugs, three point four times more
16:33
Speaker 1: likely to be at high risk of HIV and STDs.
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Speaker 2: So now we want to make a distinction in that
16:40
Speaker 2: not all religious organizations approve of this practice. The churches
16:44
Speaker 2: we mentioned in part one of the specific episode would
16:47
Speaker 2: be included in those who would be against this type
16:50
Speaker 2: of therapy, and many of the most spoken out again
16:53
Speaker 2: to reaffirm their position. As a topic is still being debated,
16:56
Speaker 2: like I've found organizations that had actual statements on their size.
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Speaker 2: We do not condone this, and we think a ban
17:03
Speaker 2: is necessary.
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Speaker 1: But there are many who oppose a complete ban on
17:07
Speaker 1: conversion therapy, using the First Amendment as a basis on
17:11
Speaker 1: why it should not be completely banned. Religious outlets argue
17:15
Speaker 1: that these types of bands target Christian ministries. Here's a
17:20
Speaker 1: quote from Premier Christianity. There is no doubt that Christian
17:24
Speaker 1: pastoral ministry is being targeted by activists in this area.
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Speaker 1: All the evangelical organizations who have encouraged responding to the
17:33
Speaker 1: consultation recognize this. This very real threat is why organizations
17:39
Speaker 1: that have up to now been quiet on conversion therapy
17:43
Speaker 1: are now suddenly speaking out about it. Pastoral ministry is
17:47
Speaker 1: a private, consensual conversation, but activists want to criminalize pastoral
17:53
Speaker 1: ministry for people struggling with sexual ur gender identity issues.
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Speaker 1: Prayer is also for activists.
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Speaker 2: Right, So, as we talked about earlier, this is where
18:05
Speaker 2: it's turning it and flipping it on a script, and
18:07
Speaker 2: I think it's important that we pay attention. I hate
18:09
Speaker 2: that I clicked onto this to look at this, and
18:11
Speaker 2: my algorithm is a truly messed up from now on.
18:14
Speaker 2: I'm so sad, But this is how the rhetorics are turning.
18:18
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying prayer is a bad thing and
18:22
Speaker 2: that no one should be praying. That has never been
18:24
Speaker 2: a thing. That is a never thing. Have we talked
18:27
Speaker 2: about separation of state and church and state? Yes, because
18:32
Speaker 2: even in the breakdown, like different denominations of a specific
18:36
Speaker 2: religion are arguing with each other, So why the hell
18:39
Speaker 2: are we going to allow for something when people can't
18:41
Speaker 2: in that organization. I can't even agree with what it is.
18:44
Speaker 2: But that's again a whole different side note for me
18:47
Speaker 2: not to be too obvious, but can we once again
18:50
Speaker 2: agree that this usage of First Amendment defense seems to
18:54
Speaker 2: be really one sided as per usual, like Florida education
19:00
Speaker 2: including colleges being stripped completely a factual information for being divisive.
19:07
Speaker 2: But hey, I guess again, I keep going on these
19:11
Speaker 2: sides because I'm just like, what it? This is why
19:14
Speaker 2: we say this is all connected and this is not
19:16
Speaker 2: just about one thing. This is not just about the
19:18
Speaker 2: queer community once again, and this is the idea that
19:24
Speaker 2: talk therapy is just Christian counseling. And don't get me wrong,
19:28
Speaker 2: I'm not saying talk therapy is not a thing, But
19:32
Speaker 2: what I'm talking about is it being manipulated. And when
19:36
Speaker 2: it comes to unlicensed professionals try to make take on
19:39
Speaker 2: mental health services and say that they are ordained and
19:44
Speaker 2: it doesn't hurt anything is very untrue. And I say,
19:48
Speaker 2: this is a person who went through Christian counseling by
19:50
Speaker 2: people who were not counselors, and I'm like, what the
19:52
Speaker 2: hell is happening and being discharged after three weeks of like, oh,
19:56
Speaker 2: you should be a counselor ma'am.
20:00
Speaker 3: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Different times again. Please, for the love of Jesus, if
20:07
Speaker 2: you want to know more about what we're talking about,
20:09
Speaker 2: as we're talking about this whole mental health services slash
20:13
Speaker 2: mentoring kind of can be said, please refer to our
20:18
Speaker 2: Purity Culture and Religious Trauma episode because it's in depth,
20:21
Speaker 2: is traumatic, but it's very honest. And here's one more
20:28
Speaker 2: quote that I've found disturbing from that same article. Any
20:32
Speaker 2: government intervention to ban conversion therapy will lead to a
20:36
Speaker 2: chilling effect on conversations or discussions about sexual or gender identities.
20:42
Speaker 2: People will fear saying what they really think. As it
20:46
Speaker 2: stands today, Christians are often afraid to express their support
20:51
Speaker 2: of biblical sexual morality. They avoid at talking about it,
20:55
Speaker 2: and sadly, churches often avoid at preaching or teaching about it,
21:00
Speaker 2: even though it is perhaps the biggest cultural change that
21:03
Speaker 2: the Church faces in the UK in the present generation.
21:08
Speaker 2: A new law will only exacerbate this problem and cause
21:12
Speaker 2: people to be even more cautious about expressing Christian views
21:15
Speaker 2: on sexual morality. The culture at large will also become
21:20
Speaker 2: more antagonistic towards biblical sexual morality and accuse people expressing
21:26
Speaker 2: an orthodox a position of being pro conversion therapy or
21:31
Speaker 2: even of engaging in conversion therapy. This chilling effect is
21:36
Speaker 2: harmful to the Gospel. Therefore, any Christian should strongly oppose
21:41
Speaker 2: government intervention in conversion therapy in principle. So oddly they
21:46
Speaker 2: do want a separation of church and state here, but
21:52
Speaker 2: not when it comes to licensed therapy and professions, which,
21:56
Speaker 2: by the way, the Supreme Court in the US shut
21:58
Speaker 2: down at one point in time saying that professional people
22:02
Speaker 2: can have a right to freedom of speech. That's a
22:06
Speaker 2: whole other conversation we're going to come down to in
22:08
Speaker 2: a minute. I don't know. Maybe it's it's different in
22:13
Speaker 2: the UK, and I know we have people in the
22:17
Speaker 2: UK listening, so let me know and this is true
22:20
Speaker 2: for them. But I haven't seen many people in the
22:24
Speaker 2: country that feel quote afraid to express their support of
22:27
Speaker 2: biblical sexual morality here, as in fact it's the opposite.
22:32
Speaker 2: This level of hypocrisy makes makes me want to throw things.
22:37
Speaker 2: Anny makes me want to throw things. This is why
22:39
Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, we're only doing small We're only doing
22:41
Speaker 2: a small bit this time. I feel like that's probably
22:44
Speaker 2: everything every time I say it. But the conversation about
22:51
Speaker 2: the fact that Christians this is that whole level of
22:54
Speaker 2: making sure Christians feel like they're being persecuted so they
22:57
Speaker 2: have to fight harder and louder and to remember, this
23:01
Speaker 2: is what the Bible told you, that they were going
23:03
Speaker 2: to come after us, and we're being persecuted here, instead
23:07
Speaker 2: of talking about the fact that no, we would never.
23:12
Speaker 2: The law is never like someone asking questions was never
23:15
Speaker 2: the problem. It was literally holding people down, screaming in
23:20
Speaker 2: their faces and telling them if you have sex with
23:24
Speaker 2: the opposite sex, then you'll be fine when rhetoric like
23:29
Speaker 2: like even, but let's be real honest. What they want
23:32
Speaker 2: to say is that there's a stark difference from the
23:34
Speaker 2: old school. When I say old school like early late
23:37
Speaker 2: nineteen hundreds and early nineteen hundred's method of a conversion
23:41
Speaker 2: therapy to today's therapy is completely different, and that it's
23:45
Speaker 2: not as dramatic and then nactuality it is, but in
23:49
Speaker 2: a different level, especially to young kids.
23:53
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, I mean, and like I know we've said
23:57
Speaker 1: it in several of these religious episodes, but the idea
24:02
Speaker 1: as a kid that you will go to hell, that's
24:07
Speaker 1: it's traumatic. Like I don't know how else to tell you.
24:12
Speaker 1: We can have a conversation. I do believe there are
24:15
Speaker 1: pluses for positive spirituality religion, but for a lot of us,
24:21
Speaker 1: it's raised in this kind of like Western Christian world
24:26
Speaker 1: that is a traumatic thing in itself. And if what
24:29
Speaker 1: is telling you is you have to go get this
24:33
Speaker 1: really traumatic something is wrong with you and we're going
24:38
Speaker 1: to have to fix you or else this eternal health
24:42
Speaker 1: fire is what's waiting for you.
24:45
Speaker 2: Right And if you don't and if you don't come
24:47
Speaker 2: to us to help us fix you. Then you're not
24:49
Speaker 2: a part of our community, like both of those things,
24:52
Speaker 2: and you're not going to be accepted by any of
24:53
Speaker 2: your people, including your parents possibly. And by the way,
24:57
Speaker 2: literally laws and policies are quickly following the idea of
25:00
Speaker 2: morality and it has been changed very fast, like white
25:04
Speaker 2: Christian nationalism has taken over. And we're watching, like begging
25:10
Speaker 2: people to realize what's going on, and many of us do,
25:13
Speaker 2: and there seems to be so little that we can
25:14
Speaker 2: do in the background. And even worse, this is being
25:19
Speaker 2: used to oppress this law, it's being used to oppress
25:23
Speaker 2: the marginalized. They're trying so hard to convert like this
25:26
Speaker 2: whole conversation like we're the minority here. No, no, and
25:33
Speaker 2: actually they may be, but they've got the most power.
25:37
Speaker 1: Right well, and that's one of them. I mean, I
25:40
Speaker 1: don't have to tell you or anyone else. So that's
25:42
Speaker 1: one of the most frustrating things about this whole conversation
25:44
Speaker 1: to me, is like the hypocrisy of it.
25:46
Speaker 3: It's just the like, oh, so.
25:51
Speaker 1: You'll fix this person, which is essentially destroying a part
25:55
Speaker 1: of them through trauma or like making them feel that
25:58
Speaker 1: they have to cover it up or go to.
26:00
Speaker 2: Hell, or they have to hate themselves?
26:03
Speaker 1: Are they up to hate themselves? And you want to
26:06
Speaker 1: tell me all about how such a loving religion and
26:10
Speaker 1: it's so about like not judging. Yeah, yeah, yep. And
26:19
Speaker 1: here's another example of this flip we're talking about and
26:24
Speaker 1: fear mongering from Christianity today. As the practice itself has
26:28
Speaker 1: all but disappeared referring to conversion therapy, public campaigns to
26:32
Speaker 1: ban it are growing around the world. Some Christians worry
26:36
Speaker 1: that new regulations with poor definitions will take aim at
26:39
Speaker 1: what the UK Evangelical Alliance calls everyday aspects of church life.
26:46
Speaker 1: A new law in Victoria, Australia, for example, will ban
26:50
Speaker 1: religious practices, including but not limited to, a prayer based
26:54
Speaker 1: practice aimed at changing or suppressing the sexual orientation. The
27:00
Speaker 1: government also says conversion therapy is illegal with or without
27:04
Speaker 1: the person's consent. It is not yet clear how the law,
27:07
Speaker 1: which goes into effect in February twenty twenty two, will
27:10
Speaker 1: be applied, but it could criminalize praying for people who
27:13
Speaker 1: ask for prayer. I'm so sorry, but just the idea
27:16
Speaker 1: of somebody out there praying for me, like go.
27:21
Speaker 2: Hopefully never had someone tell you that I have.
27:24
Speaker 3: But like the idea that someone's out there just.
27:28
Speaker 2: Any my parents are praying for me to turn away
27:31
Speaker 2: from a feminist ways. My mother, right, you think I'm
27:35
Speaker 2: getting No, I don't, absolutely not. I don't think that
27:40
Speaker 2: this is this is an active thing. I'm I'm sure
27:45
Speaker 2: she has requested prayer in her women's grap Yes, who
27:48
Speaker 2: are who I have friends of their kids they have
27:52
Speaker 2: prayed for. I know they have because I know that's
27:54
Speaker 2: what my mother would do.
27:56
Speaker 1: That's what I was kind of laughing at, though, is
27:58
Speaker 1: that it's like some going to like a prayer group
28:01
Speaker 1: and being like, it wouldn't be my mom in this case,
28:04
Speaker 1: but I know someone it might be who was afraid
28:07
Speaker 1: of my mom's who would.
28:08
Speaker 3: Be like, we gotta pray for those girls and me
28:11
Speaker 3: never knowing it. I guess there's something kind of comical about.
28:18
Speaker 2: Here's the thing about this prayer and karma and good vibes.
28:22
Speaker 2: All those things are great and people believe that. I
28:25
Speaker 2: believe in several days, I believe like there's a level
28:28
Speaker 2: for me personally. But yeah, having like there's this like
28:32
Speaker 2: moment of like, wait, to me, if I was a
28:36
Speaker 2: prayer person, I would be praying for you. I'm just
28:38
Speaker 2: more disgusted in trying to figure out why you're like
28:41
Speaker 2: this as opposed to like, like true, yeah, it's literally,
28:48
Speaker 2: uh have I'm pretty sure I can almost say pray
28:52
Speaker 2: for Samantha she's lost her way and that she will
28:55
Speaker 2: find it again, and that she would see God and
28:59
Speaker 2: find the find the right path again, like guaranteed. Those
29:03
Speaker 2: words are all up in that. And we also go
29:09
Speaker 2: ahead and talk about the fact that it says they
29:11
Speaker 2: really are harping on the idea of prayer and leaving
29:14
Speaker 2: out the part about like praying because what we see
29:17
Speaker 2: when we talk about praying over people, and especially when
29:20
Speaker 2: it was like the church I grew up in, it
29:22
Speaker 2: was like they weren't violent, but there was a lot
29:25
Speaker 2: of touching. There was a lot of loud noises, there
29:27
Speaker 2: was a lot of screaming. Like I had friends who
29:29
Speaker 2: would come to my church and would be scared during
29:33
Speaker 2: our prayer service. So I mean, think about that, especially
29:37
Speaker 2: when they're like trying to pray a demon out of
29:39
Speaker 2: you essentially.
29:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean it's just kind of a running joke.
29:43
Speaker 1: Like the whole thoughts and prayers is.
29:45
Speaker 2: Like yeah, how effective has it been?
29:47
Speaker 3: This is the bare minimum we can do, Like we're
29:50
Speaker 3: praying for you?
29:52
Speaker 2: Cool?
29:53
Speaker 3: What else?
29:55
Speaker 2: It does also remind me of like Saved, in which
29:58
Speaker 2: Manny Moore's characters like I'm filled with Aali goes and
30:00
Speaker 2: the slams, like throws the Bible in this girl's face
30:03
Speaker 2: and it hit him in the face. I'm like, that's
30:05
Speaker 2: the level of what I like, this is what we're
30:07
Speaker 2: talking about. I'm like, yeah, let's not doing what you do.
30:11
Speaker 1: Quit trying to twist this right, right, and and that
30:15
Speaker 1: is true, like it's usually used because you can't like
30:20
Speaker 1: explain it. Yeah, it's like, well, I'm praying for you, okay.
30:25
Speaker 2: Great, what else have you done for us?
30:29
Speaker 1: Right? And again this plays on the idea that the
30:33
Speaker 1: government is trying to ban prayer to victimize Christians instead
30:36
Speaker 1: of predicting LGBTQ plus youth. I think a lot of
30:39
Speaker 1: us probably have experienced the anger at people saying like
30:45
Speaker 1: I don't want to say and God, we trust in
30:47
Speaker 1: our whatever government things.
30:51
Speaker 3: And they're like, well, they're punishing me right, well right.
30:57
Speaker 2: The fact that when people want to take a knee
31:00
Speaker 2: during yes like that, or not want to say a
31:04
Speaker 2: prayer like or not the Christian there were places that
31:08
Speaker 2: would do the Christian pledge to like there's so many things, okay,
31:15
Speaker 2: But it is this type of rhetoric or in rephrasing
31:18
Speaker 2: that is allowing for practices like conversion therapy to try
31:21
Speaker 2: to creep back into present day methods. And I honestly,
31:25
Speaker 2: I don't know why I said the word creep, because
31:27
Speaker 2: it's not creeping. They are doing it very openly and
31:30
Speaker 2: we're seeing it. In fact, just recently, two councilors in
31:35
Speaker 2: Florida were able to win a lawsuit stating that the
31:38
Speaker 2: local conversion therapy band violated their First Amendment rights in
31:42
Speaker 2: free speech. And this was April of twenty twenty three,
31:47
Speaker 2: so literally a few months ago. Not a good sign.
31:50
Speaker 2: Not a good sign. In twenty twenty there was a
31:52
Speaker 2: ruling that granted a preliminary injunction to stop enforcing the
31:56
Speaker 2: conversion ban in Florida, Georgia, and Alabama. Again, this is
32:00
Speaker 2: based on the idea that it violates free speech. Here's
32:04
Speaker 2: a quote from the Washington Post about it. In America,
32:07
Speaker 2: twenty six states and the District of Columbia at least
32:10
Speaker 2: partially banned using this damaging practice on minors. When Auto
32:14
Speaker 2: and Hamilton's case was heard by the US Court of
32:16
Speaker 2: Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit in twenty twenty, the court
32:19
Speaker 2: decided that Auto and Hamilton suffered quote content based regulations
32:24
Speaker 2: of speech. According to Judge Britt Grant, this case also
32:29
Speaker 2: prompted the court to grant a preliminary injunction preventing the
32:32
Speaker 2: enforcement of city and county wide conversion therapy bans in
32:35
Speaker 2: Florida as well as Alabama and Georgia. I feel like
32:40
Speaker 2: that should be a real big ringer of what's happened
32:43
Speaker 2: in the last few years and what they're ramping up to.
32:47
Speaker 3: Yep.
32:48
Speaker 1: And we also want to note that just because the
32:51
Speaker 1: state may have banned the practice, it doesn't mean organizations
32:54
Speaker 1: have adhered to it. In a twenty twenty one investigation
32:58
Speaker 1: by Open Democracy, a woman went undercover and found counselors
33:02
Speaker 1: in some of the banned states. Here's what they wrote
33:05
Speaker 1: about it. The counselors were described as offering treatment for
33:08
Speaker 1: homosexuality issues and gender identity issues on a US wide
33:14
Speaker 1: list provided by Focus on the Family, a conservative Christian
33:17
Speaker 1: group that is pursuing similar anti LGBTQ activities. In Costa Rica,
33:22
Speaker 1: where its Latin American office is located. Our investigation reveals,
33:27
Speaker 1: in one instance, a counselor operating in Virginia told her
33:31
Speaker 1: undercover reporter that LGBTQ people were unhealthy and that our
33:36
Speaker 1: reporter should not eat until she reached the point of
33:38
Speaker 1: seeing herself at the cross with Christ hanging, dying, bleeding,
33:43
Speaker 1: because that's life changing. A counselor in Colorado promised to
33:48
Speaker 1: treat unwanted same sex attraction, an expression frequently used to
33:53
Speaker 1: disguise conversion therapy but rejected by LGBTQ plus communities. Leading
33:58
Speaker 1: health and legal experts said that Open Democracy's findings were
34:02
Speaker 1: blatantly unethical and graphic examples of conversion therapy that broke
34:08
Speaker 1: local laws and raised concerns about the effectiveness of existing
34:12
Speaker 1: anti conversion therapy legislation.
34:15
Speaker 2: Right and as we're talking about this, yeah, these examples
34:17
Speaker 2: are not great. So take care of yourself, and the
34:33
Speaker 2: report continues. In another investigation, our reporter, claiming to be
34:37
Speaker 2: at age seventeen, had several online paid sessions with these
34:40
Speaker 2: two practitioners who are operating in Virginia and Colorado, two
34:44
Speaker 2: of the twenty states who are offering conversion therapy to
34:48
Speaker 2: minors is banned Virginia and Colorado. Measures share the same
34:51
Speaker 2: definition of conversion therapy any practice or treatment that seeks, attempts,
34:55
Speaker 2: or purports to change in individual's sexual orientation or gender identity,
35:00
Speaker 2: including efforts to change behaviors or gender expressions, or to
35:04
Speaker 2: eliminate or reduce sexual, romantic attractions or feelings towards individuals
35:08
Speaker 2: of the same gender. The first of the two professionals
35:11
Speaker 2: told Open Democracy's reporter that he was currently based in Virginia,
35:14
Speaker 2: although he was listed on the website as being in
35:16
Speaker 2: another nearby state where these practices are not restricted. During
35:22
Speaker 2: the first session, the therapist told our reporter that she
35:24
Speaker 2: had to suppress homosexual desires, read the Bible, and stay
35:29
Speaker 2: away from any Christian group that affirms gay sexuality. Quote
35:33
Speaker 2: They're not going to tell you that your depression, your anxiety,
35:36
Speaker 2: all that is not going to go away if you
35:38
Speaker 2: pursue the gay lifestyle, he said. The therapist also described
35:42
Speaker 2: LGBTQ communities as unhealthy, claiming that quote the suicide rate
35:46
Speaker 2: is considerably higher than the national average, he continued, the
35:50
Speaker 2: sexual assault rate, the crime rate, all that is higher.
35:53
Speaker 2: The transmitted diseases. Those numbers are higher in the gay community.
35:56
Speaker 2: All those numbers are out there. Focus on the Family
35:59
Speaker 2: has done those kinds of studies. The therapists also claimed
36:02
Speaker 2: that in their lifetime, gay men have an average one
36:05
Speaker 2: thousand partners and lesbians five hundred. Very succinct numbers, I
36:10
Speaker 2: have to say so myself. Yeah, okay, And according to
36:17
Speaker 2: Sex and the City, so do the heterosexual women.
36:23
Speaker 3: To any like sitcom weekly sitcom?
36:26
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah.
36:27
Speaker 2: So obviously these are examples of what's happening. And though
36:30
Speaker 2: the early articles from the Christian outlets imply incarceration and
36:34
Speaker 2: loss of freedom for violating these bands, that's actually not true.
36:37
Speaker 2: The repercussions aren't that harsh, and the lawsuits actually maybe
36:41
Speaker 2: more damaging either way. So there's I could not really
36:46
Speaker 2: find what the finds were. I think for the most part,
36:49
Speaker 2: it's like malpractice suits and you get a censure from
36:52
Speaker 2: your organization, and if you're a religious organization, you may
36:57
Speaker 2: be fined, but you're not going to jail. This is
37:01
Speaker 2: not a thing the and as we see, organizations like
37:05
Speaker 2: Focus on the Family have made a huge network as
37:07
Speaker 2: in fact they do have I think a network of
37:09
Speaker 2: like seven hundred counselors that does just this type of
37:13
Speaker 2: work where they do the telehealth type of thing to
37:16
Speaker 2: get around the bands or to violate those bands. And
37:20
Speaker 2: we see that this level of like guilt in condemnation
37:25
Speaker 2: is heavy, and that whole line of like picture Jesus
37:28
Speaker 2: at the cross and use I used that to teach
37:31
Speaker 2: kids to be guilty because I had so much shame
37:35
Speaker 2: for so long for just existing. And that's that level again,
37:42
Speaker 2: like being a different identity and being born loving someone
37:45
Speaker 2: that people are saying you're not supposed to. When I
37:47
Speaker 2: say loving someone, I'm talking about age appropriate consent. Don't
37:50
Speaker 2: want to hear anything from NAMBLA, but like all those
37:53
Speaker 2: things like and being told, oh if you don't if
37:57
Speaker 2: you live by like that, that means you don't love
37:59
Speaker 2: Jesus or this thing who did all the huge things,
38:03
Speaker 2: which by the way, again were done by hypocritical religious
38:07
Speaker 2: people as a reminder but they don't want to remember
38:11
Speaker 2: that or whatever. And we didn't really kind of talk
38:15
Speaker 2: about the fact that there is a networks like this
38:17
Speaker 2: for other types of religious organizations, like Catholics very heavily
38:22
Speaker 2: into this as well. Some Jewish organizations are heavily into
38:25
Speaker 2: this as well. We've seen all around the world where
38:30
Speaker 2: they have been influenced by this, and the persecution of
38:33
Speaker 2: the queer community is intense and probably follow along the
38:38
Speaker 2: nineteen fifties type of methods of conversion therapy, which you
38:43
Speaker 2: know some countries have finally caught on and banned entirely.
38:46
Speaker 2: So yeay, But again, if it wasn't clear, these bands
38:53
Speaker 2: are in place for people under the age of eighteen,
38:57
Speaker 2: So right now what we're talking about is conversion therapy
38:59
Speaker 2: being ban for youths, which I don't know. It should
39:05
Speaker 2: be easy to follow if you're in Florida, as we're
39:07
Speaker 2: not supposed to be talking about gender or sexual orientation
39:10
Speaker 2: at all, but yet it's not banned there as in fact,
39:15
Speaker 2: you know they turned that over so interesting again.
39:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, Also, ageists just want to put in there because
39:28
Speaker 1: the assumption is that by a certain age you'll know
39:32
Speaker 1: not true.
39:34
Speaker 2: I think it's the idea is that they don't want
39:36
Speaker 2: to like it should be banned altogether, but for so
39:39
Speaker 2: pretty young because like parents are like physically pushing them
39:43
Speaker 2: into those types of things, and then the whole camps
39:46
Speaker 2: that we've seen, But it is right, Yeah, both can
39:51
Speaker 2: be true. And this is something that will continue to
39:54
Speaker 2: be challenged. The most extremist rhetoric continues, we can guarantee
39:58
Speaker 2: other lawsuits will follow. So I know in twenty twenty,
40:02
Speaker 2: we had a lawsuit in both DC and I thinking
40:04
Speaker 2: a little earlier in California, which were overturned because they
40:09
Speaker 2: were trying to say again free speech. But both DC
40:12
Speaker 2: and California said, based on the whole county and city
40:16
Speaker 2: markers that they can control how businesses are run and
40:20
Speaker 2: how professionalism is run, which is true. But yeah, this
40:25
Speaker 2: is definitely going on a national level again, and we
40:30
Speaker 2: should definitely watch it because this has been in play
40:32
Speaker 2: for years. Like some of these articles we talked about
40:35
Speaker 2: where they were fighting this obviously earlier than twenty twenty one.
40:38
Speaker 2: Some of them were in twenty seventeen, some of them
40:40
Speaker 2: were twenty fifteen, and there's tons being released now talking
40:44
Speaker 2: about this is going. This is literally persecution of Christians.
40:48
Speaker 2: That's what they're trying.
40:49
Speaker 1: To say, right, And I do want to add in here,
40:53
Speaker 1: I find it kind of humorous slash very insulting, slash terrible,
40:58
Speaker 1: but kind of humorous that it I feel like the
41:02
Speaker 1: why they try to tell is that this is like
41:06
Speaker 1: the natural thing, this is how it should be. But
41:09
Speaker 1: what they really mean is we want white Christians to
41:15
Speaker 1: have babies in this very certain sense, because I find
41:19
Speaker 1: it really funny as an asexual person where I'm like,
41:21
Speaker 1: I don't want to have sex. That seems to be
41:23
Speaker 1: kind of your message, and they're like, no, you need
41:27
Speaker 1: to have sex and have a baby with a man.
41:32
Speaker 3: But you told me that sex is bad. You've been
41:34
Speaker 3: telling me this whole time. And they're like, no, wait
41:37
Speaker 3: a minute.
41:38
Speaker 1: Only this one kind is really good and actually Christian,
41:44
Speaker 1: you need to be doing that thing.
41:47
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's just kind of like.
41:49
Speaker 2: Hm, right, yeah, and definitely like the result of like
41:55
Speaker 2: being gay, the opposite of being gay is having heterosexual sex,
41:59
Speaker 2: and that would definitely there were examples, and I didn't
42:02
Speaker 2: read this is what I was telling Annie. I was like,
42:05
Speaker 2: it's gonna be this short because and it ended up
42:07
Speaker 2: not being short, of course, but they're going to be
42:10
Speaker 2: shorter because I couldn't go through all the stories because
42:13
Speaker 2: I would say stories about men and women being told
42:17
Speaker 2: if you come over, we're gonna do exorcism, and I'll
42:20
Speaker 2: show you why this is pleasurable. Essentially trying to have
42:23
Speaker 2: sex with them to convert them, and that is you
42:26
Speaker 2: would think that was from the nineteen fifties. No, that's
42:28
Speaker 2: happening today. And as we know, as we see more
42:32
Speaker 2: and more people in the ministry doing some very suss things,
42:37
Speaker 2: this is right up the alley. Again, not saying that
42:40
Speaker 2: all the people that are in the ministry or who
42:43
Speaker 2: are doing this are abusers. That's not what we're saying,
42:45
Speaker 2: but we're saying that this tactic is still happening today, right.
42:50
Speaker 1: And I was talking with you about when I first,
42:54
Speaker 1: like early days, when I first was like, you know, hey,
42:58
Speaker 1: I think I'm a sexual. Somebody wrote in and was
43:01
Speaker 1: very kind, but she was like, I kind of find
43:05
Speaker 1: it hurtful that you identify this way, but you don't
43:09
Speaker 1: use the A in the LGBT because we're often ignored,
43:14
Speaker 1: and we've already done episodes on that. There's a lot
43:17
Speaker 1: of like complications with that whole thing, and there's definitely
43:19
Speaker 1: problems with it. I was not offended. I got where
43:22
Speaker 1: she was coming from. But she she brought up like,
43:26
Speaker 1: have you heard of corrective rape? And someone else recently
43:30
Speaker 1: brought that up with me, which is a thing which
43:33
Speaker 1: is similar to what you're talking about. Where it's like,
43:36
Speaker 1: essentially we're going to rape you, right and that will
43:40
Speaker 1: fix you.
43:42
Speaker 2: Right.
43:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's it's really gross and it's it's happening now.
43:46
Speaker 1: It is not something from the past, right. Yes, Yes,
43:54
Speaker 1: we still have more to talk about. We still have
43:57
Speaker 1: more to talk about. Yes, there will be a part
44:00
Speaker 1: three to this mini series already, it's like a subpart
44:06
Speaker 1: or just branching.
44:08
Speaker 2: Yes, it's growing, is having his own babies.
44:12
Speaker 3: It is y. There we go.
44:16
Speaker 1: But that's what we have to say for now. So listeners,
44:18
Speaker 1: if you have any thoughts about this, you can email us.
44:21
Speaker 1: Our email is Stepania mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
44:24
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at mostuff Podcasts, or
44:27
Speaker 1: on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I've Never told you.
44:30
Speaker 1: We do have a tea public store with some merchandise.
44:34
Speaker 1: We also have a book that you can pre order
44:36
Speaker 1: in audio form or physical form at stuff you should
44:39
Speaker 1: read Books dot com. It is coming out within the
44:41
Speaker 1: month this of August.
44:43
Speaker 3: Twenty twenty three.
44:44
Speaker 1: So thanks as always too, our super producer Christina, our
44:51
Speaker 1: executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey.
44:54
Speaker 3: Thank you and thanks to you for listening.
44:56
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