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EP240: Tim Spellman - How To Win At Life As A Man · The Sovereign Man Podcast

0:02
Speaker 1: - The best thing about being on a men's team
0:04
Speaker 1: is they remind me of who I am.
0:07
Speaker 1: And when you get lost and you got a half a dozen men
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Speaker 1: who you're really tight with,
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Speaker 1: they can bring that back to you.
0:13
Speaker 1: There's nothing better.
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Speaker 2: - You're a man living in the modern world
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Speaker 2: in a time when men and manhood are not what they once were.
0:23
Speaker 2: You live life on your own terms.
0:25
Speaker 2: You're self-sufficient.
0:26
Speaker 2: You think for yourself
0:28
Speaker 2: and you march to the beat of your own drum.
0:31
Speaker 2: When life knocks you down, you get back up
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Speaker 2: because in your gut, you know that's what men do.
0:37
Speaker 2: You're a badass and a warrior.
0:39
Speaker 2: And on the days when you forget,
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Speaker 2: we are here to remind you who you really are.
0:45
Speaker 3: - Welcome to Sovereign Man Podcast
0:47
Speaker 3: where we aim to make men masculine again.
0:48
Speaker 3: I'm your man, Nicky Balu,
0:50
Speaker 3: and we have a very special guest for you today, Tim Spellman.
0:54
Speaker 3: Welcome, Spellman.
0:56
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me, Mr. Ballou.
0:58
Speaker 1: I really enjoy what you do
1:00
Speaker 1: and I'm looking forward to talking to you today.
1:03
Speaker 1: - So brother, why don't you begin
1:05
Speaker 1: by sharing your backstory?
1:08
Speaker 1: - So my backstory, I grew up in New Jersey.
1:13
Speaker 1: I'm from the States.
1:14
Speaker 1: I grew up in New Jersey and went to grade school there.
1:18
Speaker 1: When I was in sixth grade, my father sold his business
1:20
Speaker 1: and took the family to Europe for a year,
1:23
Speaker 1: which turned into two years, which was fricking awesome.
1:26
Speaker 1: We lived in Florence, Italy.
1:29
Speaker 1: I went to the American School of Florence, learned about girls in Florence.
1:33
Speaker 1: It was nice.
1:34
Speaker 1: Moved back to the States and moved up to Massachusetts.
1:39
Speaker 1: My father's family had been from New Jersey and my mother's family had been from Massachusetts.
1:44
Speaker 1: So we went and lived up there for a while.
1:47
Speaker 1: And then I went away to college and started a career and I'll get into all of that later.
1:52
Speaker 1: But boy, do I have some good memories of my grandmother and other people that brought
2:00
Speaker 1: me great lessons when I was little.
2:01
Speaker 3: That's awesome, man.
2:03
Speaker 3: That's awesome.
2:03
Speaker 3: Keep going.
2:04
Speaker 1: So I'm going to talk today about karma, gratitude, whatever that topic is.
2:10
Speaker 1: I don't even have good words for it.
2:13
Speaker 1: But I must have been putting things on the wheel since I was like seven, because my memories
2:18
Speaker 1: from about second grade on are just totally pleasant ones.
2:22
Speaker 1: I made a lifetime best friend with a fellow who was within walking distance of my house,
2:29
Speaker 1: even though he's a different school system.
2:31
Speaker 1: He taught me some great lessons in my life.
2:34
Speaker 1: My friend Dwayne, one of them was to never regret anything.
2:39
Speaker 1: And that has echoed throughout my life ever since I was little.
2:44
Speaker 1: My grandmother, Shai, was volunteering, started volunteering at the local community service
2:53
Speaker 1: center for, I don't know what the right word is, but the local community service center.
3:00
Speaker 1: And she showed me what grownups do to give back.
3:03
Speaker 1: So that was pretty amazing to learn about that.
3:08
Speaker 1: When I was 10, she learned about the suicide of a young teenager that she knew, and she
3:16
Speaker 1: sat me down on her porch and made me promise never to commit suicide.
3:21
Speaker 1: And that has stayed with me all my life.
3:22
Speaker 1: We all think of like ending it from time to time, some seriously, some not.
3:27
Speaker 1: I closed that back door when I was 10.
3:30
Speaker 1: Sure, I think about driving into a bridge when I'm pissed sometimes, but I know I will
3:34
Speaker 1: never do that because I made the promise to my grandma.
3:37
Speaker 1: Living in Florence, Italy was really transformative.
3:43
Speaker 1: We went to the American School of Florence.
3:45
Speaker 1: I learned Italian and French in middle school and had a great time being able to see the
3:55
Speaker 1: Duomo, the cathedral in Florence, Italy from my bedroom.
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Speaker 1: We camped during the summers and we met a British family who had been hosted by another
4:05
Speaker 1: foreign family and to pay it forward they invited us to their home in the Lake District
4:11
Speaker 1: so they could pay it forward and when my parents got back from that they invited friends into our
4:18
Speaker 1: home when we were living in Italy to pay it forward. So that's just the idea that chain of
4:24
Speaker 1: paying forward has had positive echoes all throughout my life. So I'm happy to keep talking.
4:33
Speaker 1: Is this the topic you want to hit?
4:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, please do.
4:37
Speaker 1: It's good.
4:37
Speaker 1: Okay.
4:37
Speaker 1: Keep going, man.
4:38
Speaker 1: When the conversation's good, no need to stop.
4:41
Speaker 1: Just roll.
4:41
Speaker 1: Great.
4:42
Speaker 1: So when I went to choose a major in college, I remember feeling very lucky because I knew
4:48
Speaker 1: exactly what I wanted to study, which was computer programming.
4:53
Speaker 1: But Lucky's not the word.
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Speaker 1: What's the word that you would use if you feel like you've got the right thing, that
4:59
Speaker 1: you're going in the right direction?
5:01
Speaker 1: Because there's—
5:01
Speaker 1: I like the word blessed.
5:03
Speaker 1: Blessed, yeah, okay.
5:06
Speaker 1: So I felt really blessed, fortunate, whatever that word is, that I wound up picking the
5:14
Speaker 1: things that I cared about.
5:16
Speaker 1: When I sat in the stacks at the college that I transferred to and didn't have any friends
5:25
Speaker 1: and picked up a book on medical information systems and decided that's what I wanted my
5:30
Speaker 1: first job to be. And my career goal early on was I wanted to be a proficient computer
5:37
Speaker 1: programmer in two years and a proficient systems analyst in five. And I wound up being a proficient
5:43
Speaker 1: computer programmer in six months. And by two years, I was a proficient systems analyst.
5:50
Speaker 1: I've never looked back in my four decade long career, but boy, have I had great opportunities.
5:57
Speaker 1: The best place I've ever worked is Fidelity Investments, privately held company, no pressure
6:03
Speaker 1: to hit quarterly goals to make the stock look good, family owned, big brokerage house, and
6:11
Speaker 1: one of the best in the world.
6:13
Speaker 1: And I got to be on the data architecture team of the best division of the best, one of the
6:19
Speaker 1: best companies in the world.
6:21
Speaker 1: And oh my goodness, was it great.
6:23
Speaker 1: jobs, I had been pretty much the smartest one in the room.
6:27
Speaker 1: I was an architect early on, a software architect, and just was pretty damn good at it.
6:34
Speaker 1: Taught well by some great teachers.
6:36
Speaker 1: And when I got to Fidelity, I was just another employee.
6:40
Speaker 1: There was nothing special about me.
6:42
Speaker 1: It was so awesome.
6:44
Speaker 1: I learned a ton from being around so many smart people.
6:48
Speaker 1: So those are the threads that I wanted to pull on today.
6:53
Speaker 1: One of the things I got into doing transformational work in my early 20s, I did a number of different
7:03
Speaker 1: kinds of things.
7:04
Speaker 1: I wound up, the one that's meant the most to me is the one that I did when I was 30,
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Speaker 1: which is the Sterling Institute's Sterling Men's Weekend.
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Speaker 1: It's really about being the man you always wanted to be.
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Speaker 1: I've learned it, I've teached it, taught it, taught it.
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Speaker 1: And it's been a real staple in my life, learning how to lead.
7:26
Speaker 1: And then right now in my retirement, I'm a leadership trainer.
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Speaker 1: So I teach other men how to lead.
7:34
Speaker 1: Let's see what else I wanted to touch on.
7:37
Speaker 3: I love to ski.
7:39
Speaker 3: Let's talk about the men's weekend for a while.
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Speaker 1: Sure.
7:41
Speaker 3: So what had you do the weekend?
7:43
Speaker 1: How'd you get introduced to it?
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Speaker 1: My brother had a men's team that was just phenomenal in their relationship with each
7:53
Speaker 1: They talked to each other straight, there was no emotion about it, but they would call
7:58
Speaker 1: each other out on stuff like you wouldn't believe.
8:02
Speaker 1: You know, like I would say the traditional New Yorker, the stereotypical New Yorker,
8:07
Speaker 1: just like lay it out at you flat.
8:09
Speaker 1: And I had never met anyone like that and I wanted what they had.
8:14
Speaker 1: The relationship those men had with each other was just amazing.
8:18
Speaker 1: So I went on a couple of overnights with his men's team and he invited me to a registration
8:24
Speaker 1: event.
8:25
Speaker 1: I said yes to going to the registration event, but I knew I was telling myself, yes, I'm
8:30
Speaker 1: going to register.
8:31
Speaker 1: And I did.
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Speaker 1: Just it was really powerful.
8:36
Speaker 1: I came out of there with the understanding that I really wanted a family.
8:41
Speaker 1: I asked my girlfriend at the time to marry me and have a family with me.
8:46
Speaker 1: She didn't want to do that at all.
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Speaker 1: She didn't want a family, she didn't like the way marriages worked.
8:51
Speaker 1: And I led the way and we'd have, you know, I have two very successful young men in their
8:56
Speaker 1: twenties and a marriage of 40 years.
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Speaker 3: That's pretty awesome, dude.
9:02
Speaker 1: Yep.
9:02
Speaker 1: And one of the things I did was a lot of volunteering around Sterling and the standards that they
9:09
Speaker 1: use for the volunteering are top notch.
9:12
Speaker 1: It's a world-class organization.
9:15
Speaker 1: They put on transformational workshops for men and for women.
9:19
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I learned out of holding those standards is to be a really
9:25
Speaker 1: excellent employee.
9:26
Speaker 1: My bosses love me because I really know how to be a good employee as well as a good manager.
9:33
Speaker 1: But they like it when I report to them all the time on all the important things that
9:38
Speaker 1: need to be known about.
9:41
Speaker 1: And I've just been, I've been well-trained and I'm good at it.
9:44
Speaker 1: Did that answer the question?
9:46
Speaker 3: Yeah.
9:46
Speaker 3: So why did you stick around so long, the Berlin organization?
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Speaker 1: So it's my community.
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Speaker 1: I built, I started, my first volunteer job was doing community service.
9:57
Speaker 1: And over the years, one of the things we used to do is help out with playground builds.
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Speaker 1: The organization that we formed to do that did about 250 playground builds.
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Speaker 1: And I was personally involved in helping lead 150 of them.
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Speaker 1: So it's just a community that we have together.
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Speaker 1: I know men, I have 2,000 men's names in my address book.
10:24
Speaker 1: There are 2,000 men who know my name across the continent and into Israel and elsewhere.
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Speaker 1: And so I built a community.
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Speaker 1: I care about it.
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Speaker 1: It's something that works.
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Speaker 3: Why do you think community matters to men?
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Speaker 1: The thing about community is it's a place where you can step outside yourself.
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Speaker 1: A thing that I learned from the Men's Weekend was how important it is to serve something
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Speaker 1: higher than yourself.
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Speaker 1: If you're all about you, let me say, I was all about me when I did my Men's Weekend.
11:01
Speaker 1: I was a child of the me generation.
11:02
Speaker 1: I wanted to know how to be more attractive and bring on more girls.
11:06
Speaker 1: And I found that living a purpose-driven life is way more valuable, brings way more meaning
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Speaker 1: to my life to have something to live for that's way bigger than me, rather than worried about
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Speaker 1: what I look like in the mirror in the morning.
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Speaker 1: So out of that grows community service, communities of men, communities of women.
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Speaker 1: One of the graduates, a few of the graduates in New England started a charity that gives
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Speaker 1: gifts at the holidays for Christmas and Hanukkah.
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Speaker 1: We arrange for kids that would not otherwise have gifts, children living in shelters or
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Speaker 1: in community medical centers or after school programs that don't have anything else.
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Speaker 1: We find volunteers to give them gifts and give them the specific gifts they want.
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Speaker 1: People love that.
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Speaker 1: People love the idea of going and shopping for another kid.
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Speaker 1: It's completely anonymous.
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Speaker 1: But just think of the joy it brings you to get a gift for somebody else and to be able
12:13
Speaker 1: to do that at whatever scale you want.
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Speaker 1: So that's a, you know, community service just lights people up and I thoroughly enjoy being
12:22
Speaker 1: involved in that kind of work.
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Speaker 3: So what made you become a leadership trainer for men?
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Speaker 3: Why is that important to you?
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Speaker 1: - I saw how the, I took the leadership training course
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Speaker 1: and saw how valuable it was for men.
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Speaker 1: This is a different kind of leadership training
12:37
Speaker 1: than you might think of as a management training.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, we talk about delegation and chain of command
12:44
Speaker 1: and motivation and things like that,
12:47
Speaker 1: but it's really also about being.
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Speaker 1: It's not about the doing as much as it is about the being.
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Speaker 1: How can you be a man that can lead other men?
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Speaker 1: How can you be a man that can find some other man's best?
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Speaker 1: And that's a really powerful way to live your life
13:03
Speaker 1: is to find that way of being.
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Speaker 1: So I saw some very effective trainers that wanted to do that
13:10
Speaker 1: and about 15 years ago,
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Speaker 1: four of us stepped up to be trained as leadership trainers.
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Speaker 1: And I now run a team of six leadership trainers
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Speaker 1: that do that up and down the East Coast.
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Speaker 1: That's pretty wild, man.
13:22
Speaker 1: That's pretty darn wild.
13:25
Speaker 1: - Yeah, so just let me say,
13:26
Speaker 1: we've got two levels of training.
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Speaker 1: One is that business of being and training men
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Speaker 1: in how to be that leader.
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Speaker 1: But we do also have large numbers of graduates
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Speaker 1: that are organized into men's teams,
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Speaker 1: which organize into tribes.
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Speaker 1: So one of the things that we have evolved over the years
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Speaker 1: is how to teach leaders to lead leaders.
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Speaker 1: And that's more challenging.
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Speaker 1: The being is still important, but there's also some lessons that we've learned over
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Speaker 1: the years that we bring to those men to show them how to get leaders to bring other men
14:03
Speaker 1: up.
14:03
Speaker 1: And that's been really effective.
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Speaker 1: One of the things about our graduate organizations is we're bringing in new men all the time.
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Speaker 1: So having a program of a steady program of keeping the knowledge in the organization
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Speaker 1: Helps being helps the organization see if those tribes be successful. Amen
14:30
Speaker 3: Amen, you know Justin Sterling the founder of the Sterling men's weekend
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Speaker 3: And the Sterling Institute of relationship passed away about a year ago at this time
14:38
Speaker 3: And I learned a lot from doing this program and we started Sovereign Man because we believed that a lot of men
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Speaker 3: needed a place where they'd be celebrated held to account and
14:51
Speaker 3: Challenged to be better men. I believe that the only way to do that is
14:57
Speaker 3: Around other men too many men in this day and age are on their own
15:02
Speaker 3: They don't have other men around them
15:04
Speaker 3: They're frankly isolated and alone, and they feel like shit because of it.
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Speaker 3: It's important to have other men to be around.
15:13
Speaker 3: Men don't even know it, but they crave masculine only spaces.
15:17
Speaker 1: Oh, man, yes.
15:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're seeing the smile on my face because we were talking, the leadership training team
15:22
Speaker 1: was talking last week about the men that we have.
15:26
Speaker 1: We are so lucky that we have each other.
15:30
Speaker 1: I have a wife.
15:31
Speaker 1: She loves me.
15:31
Speaker 1: It's great.
15:32
Speaker 1: It's wonderful.
15:34
Speaker 1: I've got a full team of men that love me and love me in a masculine way.
15:38
Speaker 1: This is not a romantic thing.
15:40
Speaker 1: They deeply care about me and because we've been together for so many years, they deeply
15:44
Speaker 1: know who I am.
15:46
Speaker 1: One of my friends said that the best thing about being on a men's team is they remind
15:51
Speaker 1: me of who I am.
15:53
Speaker 1: And when you get lost and you got half a dozen men who you're really tight with that can
15:58
Speaker 1: bring that back to you, there's nothing better.
16:01
Speaker 1: It's a super place where I get my power, where I get my strength is from those men.
16:08
Speaker 1: So Baloo, you're absolutely right.
16:10
Speaker 1: Men are lonely.
16:11
Speaker 1: They might have a wife, they might have a friend or two, but in terms of having men
16:17
Speaker 1: that can perform that service for them, keep them... Have something to do with each other
16:25
Speaker 1: that's really not superficial, but really deep and at the life level.
16:31
Speaker 1: That is so key for what we bring each other.
16:34
Speaker 1: That's a masculine love.
16:37
Speaker 1: It's not pretty.
16:40
Speaker 1: We yell at each other.
16:44
Speaker 1: We call each other out.
16:45
Speaker 1: We don't put up with any guff, any junk.
16:50
Speaker 1: I don't know.
16:50
Speaker 1: I'm trying to make this family friendly, but I'd use stronger words if this is not family
16:54
Speaker 1: friendly.
16:56
Speaker 1: So, we don't put up with any shit from each other.
16:59
Speaker 1: If a man is handing us bullshit and he doesn't know it, we tell him.
17:04
Speaker 1: We said, "I'm going to hold up a mirror to you.
17:06
Speaker 1: You're being full of shit right now."
17:08
Speaker 1: And when we do enough with each other, we really recognize and trust each other.
17:13
Speaker 1: So having that trust among men is a huge strength for other men.
17:17
Speaker 1: So thank you for what you're doing in that regard.
17:22
Speaker 1: work that you're doing. I've met a number of men that are beneficiaries of it, and man,
17:27
Speaker 1: are you making a difference in individual men's lives all the time. Good job.
17:32
Speaker 3: Thank you, brother. Thank you. You know, I've often wondered and asked myself,
17:38
Speaker 3: what happened? What changed in the last 60 odd years in the West that upended hundreds of years
17:45
Speaker 3: of tradition in male and female roles and understandings of one another's roles.
17:52
Speaker 3: And the answers I was getting weren't satisfying.
17:54
Speaker 3: They just didn't have the ring of truth to them.
17:57
Speaker 3: But back in the late 2010s, I think 2017, 2018, something like that, I was on Amazon
18:07
Speaker 3: one day and I came across a book that said, "Willing Accomplices."
18:10
Speaker 3: Author is a fellow named Kent Clesby.
18:13
Speaker 3: It was a picture of Vladimir Lenin and I think Karl Marx on the cover of the book.
18:19
Speaker 3: I bought the book.
18:20
Speaker 3: Didn't touch it for a while, but then I picked it up.
18:23
Speaker 3: And it was slow going at first, but when I got going into it, even though the man was
18:27
Speaker 3: not a great writer, what he had to say was so riveting that I finished it very quickly.
18:32
Speaker 3: And here was the central premise of the book.
18:34
Speaker 3: He said that the reason the West is where it is today in terms of its cultural norms
18:40
Speaker 3: is because back in 1917, the world's first communist government came to power, and that
18:48
Speaker 3: was in Russia when they overthrew the government of the czar.
18:52
Speaker 3: And the leader of that government, Vladimir Lenin, had a vision of creating a one world
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Speaker 3: communist government, hence Marxism-Leninism, right?
19:00
Speaker 3: That was the whole point.
19:01
Speaker 3: Because that wasn't originally, Marxism was not about taking over the whole world originally,
19:05
Speaker 3: Leninism was.
19:07
Speaker 3: And he had an objective in his mind, but he had something getting in the way of him achieving
19:13
Speaker 3: that objective.
19:14
Speaker 3: And that was the United States of America and the West in general.
19:18
Speaker 3: Because the United States was opposed to all the things that communism was for.
19:23
Speaker 3: And he said, "Well, we're going to have to defeat the United States, but we can't do
19:26
Speaker 3: it in a straight up fight.
19:27
Speaker 3: They'll crush us."
19:27
Speaker 3: So the idea he had was to use the society's very openness against itself.
19:33
Speaker 3: So he found a German communist who was part of his cadre of acolytes.
19:38
Speaker 3: His name is William Nisenberg and he sent him to the United States with a mission, which
19:42
Speaker 3: was to infiltrate American society and start turning it against itself.
19:45
Speaker 3: So initially they went into schools, they went into academia basically, they went into
19:51
Speaker 3: the media and storytelling, Hollywood.
19:54
Speaker 3: And they started slowly, slowly to recruit people who believed in the progressive ideal,
19:59
Speaker 3: the Marxist ideal really.
20:01
Speaker 3: And it was a decades long project, but they started taking American education from being
20:06
Speaker 3: pro-American to anti-American.
20:07
Speaker 3: They started taking American movies from being pro-American to anti-American and the same
20:11
Speaker 3: with the media, the news media.
20:13
Speaker 3: And nine, 10 decades later, 11 decades later, they've succeeded.
20:17
Speaker 3: But they also then brought in KGB country destabilization specialists.
20:22
Speaker 3: And the idea that one of them had was based on an Italian Marxist sociologist who said
20:30
Speaker 3: The way to bring the Marxist project to a boil fast was to weaken the family and to do that you have to weaken men.
20:37
Speaker 3: So feminism was concocted in a Marxist laboratory and they brought it to women to say, "Hey, you've been oppressed."
20:43
Speaker 3: Same language of Marxist liberation language, right? Imperialism, you're oppressed, all that crap. And they managed to make enough
20:52
Speaker 3: dissatisfied women to believe it to start spreading the gospel and
20:56
Speaker 3: They had allies in the media and over a period of the last 60 years, they've absolutely ripped
21:04
Speaker 3: the American family asunder.
21:06
Speaker 3: They have weakened men in American society, in North American, Western society as a whole.
21:13
Speaker 3: And the whole idea is that if you weaken men and you weaken the family unit, you're weakening
21:18
Speaker 3: society and then you can take over a country without having to fire a shot because the
21:22
Speaker 3: men are too weak to stand up.
21:23
Speaker 3: And when I read all this, first, it sounds like tinfoil hat territory.
21:29
Speaker 3: But then I looked at what was actually going on in our society, I go, "This guy's bang
21:32
Speaker 3: on.
21:33
Speaker 3: He's exactly, that's exactly what's happening."
21:35
Speaker 3: Because why else, out of the blue, would a woman go, "Oh my God, patriarchy, they're
21:40
Speaker 3: oppressing us."
21:41
Speaker 3: Never happened before.
21:43
Speaker 3: So my take on our current society is we need men like you and groups like mine and the
21:50
Speaker 3: groups you're involved with to help elevate men.
21:52
Speaker 3: But we also need to teach men why all this happened and what they can do to turn it around
21:57
Speaker 3: and combat it.
21:58
Speaker 3: Because it's going to be a long, hard, slow slog, just like it was for the Marxists to
22:03
Speaker 3: turn our society against itself.
22:05
Speaker 1: I had not heard that before.
22:07
Speaker 1: I guess the thing that I know to do is to do what you do, the same thing, is reach out
22:13
Speaker 1: to men, lift men up, find men who are hurting and help them through it.
22:18
Speaker 1: Because that's the starting point for a lot of this work is if you see another man that's
22:25
Speaker 1: in pain, do something about it.
22:29
Speaker 1: I know a man who asked a friend how he was doing.
22:35
Speaker 1: This is a family friend.
22:37
Speaker 1: And he said, "Fine."
22:38
Speaker 1: And my teammate went and asked the next question, which is, "Yeah, I know everybody says that.
22:43
Speaker 1: How are you doing really?"
22:45
Speaker 1: And it turned out he was really in pain, had a lot of stuff going on that wasn't working.
22:51
Speaker 1: He was taking it out on his family, and he's been able to get through it with the help
22:57
Speaker 1: of other men.
22:58
Speaker 1: I've met him.
22:59
Speaker 1: I've worked with him.
23:01
Speaker 1: You do the same thing.
23:02
Speaker 1: Reaching out to other men is key to helping those men get through whatever has happened
23:08
Speaker 1: to them, whether it be this collapse of the family, collapse of marriages, or just personal
23:16
Speaker 1: pain that they've gone through.
23:18
Speaker 1: It's so important that we do this work together.
23:21
Speaker 3: Amen.
23:22
Speaker 3: Amen.
23:23
Speaker 3: God bless you, Mr. Spelman.
23:24
Speaker 1: Really good to have you on the show, my man.
23:26
Speaker 3: All right.
23:27
Speaker 3: Thanks.
23:27
Speaker 3: This has been a ball.
23:28
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed talking to you.
23:30
Speaker 1: Get out.
23:31
Speaker 2: And that's a wrap.
23:34
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Sovereign Man Podcast.
23:37
Speaker 2: If you're ready to take charge of your life and become the man you've always wanted to be,
23:41
Speaker 2: we invite you to join the movement at sovereignman.ca.