Latest / The Worship and Leadership Podcast / Follow Well Before You Lead - Part 1

Transcript

Follow Well Before You Lead - Part 1 · The Worship and Leadership Podcast

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, what's going on, everyone, and welcome to the Worship and Leadership Podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Elmer Cañas Jr.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: And my main man right here, Willie C.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Simpson.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yo, what is up, everybody?
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you you know what, Elmer?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody wants to talk about leading.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: But rarely does anyone want to talk about following, which is ironic because that's where everybody starts out.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody starts out as a follower.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: We all play follow the leader.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: When we're little kids.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Come on now.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're born in this world.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: You following the schedules, you know?
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: I remember, you know, when my kids were born, you know, my daughter Disney was born first, and then my son came along about a year and a half later or so, right?
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: 19 months later, and he's learning how to walk, and he learns how to walk by crawling around, following his big sister around.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: He ain't come out leading her and walking.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: My Lord in heaven.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: That'd be weird.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: That'd be weird.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: If he'd come out the womb walking around.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: What's up, dad?
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Babe, what's up?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Full mustache.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to have a you know, your food man shoe had a big old head of hair.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: What's up, dad?
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Can I go get my learner's permit?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: Hold on now.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: What are we doing?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: It takes time.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: It takes time.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Man, and today we're talking about following a leader well.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: So we're gonna talk about following.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it is true that a lot of people they crave to be leaders.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: They crave the ability to tell other people what to do.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know exactly what it is, but but in reality, the best leaders are actually the best followers.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, looking at one of our anchor passages, uh, 1 Samuel 24, it's a very interesting scene.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: It it starts in a cave.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have these two primary figures.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: You have King Saul, and then you you have David.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And King Saul is the first human king in Israel's history.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Israel demands a human king.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: God's like, well, I'm your king.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, Well, we we get that.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: You ain't good enough.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: We won't be like the other nations, which is crazy.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: God's like, okay, I'm gonna give you a human king.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: And Saul starts out well, and as is inevitable with all humans, he fails in some aspect.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so the Lord sends the prophet Samuel to tell Saul, hey man, you out.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm kicking you out as king, I'm gonna raise up David.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: And as most people would be prone to do, Saul didn't take too kindly to that.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so he allows jealousy, bitterness, and resentment to fester in his heart.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And not only does he oppose and resist David, he he gets to the point where he's actively trying to kill him.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like he is in active pursuit, using Israel's own military to pursue God's chosen man to be the next king, which is crazy to say.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so David is literally running for his life, literally running for his life.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so he's hiding in a cave.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: And Saul and Saul somehow chases him, finds him, and he's in this cave.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a weird, it's a crazy scene.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: But Saul is taking a bathroom break.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: And David has him dead the right.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: How many men?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when nature calls you, you're vulnerable.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're vulnerable.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so David creeps up to him with a sword in his hand.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, oh man, he's about to get in.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: And he doesn't.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: He just cuts off a corner of his robe.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: And David in this moment has this wicked leader dead to rights.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now he and he has every right.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like nobody would have looked at what David did.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if David would have killed Saul, nobody would have batted an eye.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: They'd be like, Yeah, that's that's literally defending yourself, right?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: We were self-defense.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody would bat an eye.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Saul was pursuing him.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: He was Saul was like, When I see you, man, it's what did that young people say?
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's on sight.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I hurt myself saying that.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm old.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody would have batted an eye, though, Elmer.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because David was well within his right, because he would have been, he was actively defending himself.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: He would have been.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: But he chose to honor the title over the man.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: He chose to honor the title over the man.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so now we see there is this dynamic of David being willing to submit to the leadership of Saul, even though Saul was wicked.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now, again, we're not saying that everybody has to follow that exact same pattern.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: The point is it's the heart that David had, and recognizing as wicked as Saul is, he is still God's anointed leader over Israel.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and he's God's anointed leader, and the Lord is the one that sets authority in place.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so David is not just honoring the title.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: He's honoring God.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: He's honoring God.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's ultimately what he's doing.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And guys, listen, this is the if you don't take anything away from this episode, just what Pastor Elmer just said, all authority is set in place by God.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: When we say authority, we're not talking about human agency, we're talking about the leadership level of authority because authority is what sets order and is what leads to human flourishing in the earth.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: God has set that.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you are honoring authority, irrespective of how that human authority acts, you are by proxy honoring God.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: Now, obviously, there are some qualifiers and caveats.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're not talking about immoral authority or illegal authority, things that folks that are doing things that are uh breaking the law or putting you themselves, you or others at harm or at risk.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean you gotta call that out and you gotta resist it.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: But but if we're honest, most of us struggle with leadership because they have certain proclivities and tendencies that we just don't like.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they have they have quirks and they have personality traits that we just don't like, or they have a leadership style that just kind of grates against our sensibility.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And this is such a such a broad subject because as you're talking, I can imagine people thinking of like presidents and governors and stuff.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because we easily go that direction because they're very they're public figures.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I'm talking about like your boss.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Come on now, like at work, yep.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like even like for if you got parents, yeah, like just different that type of authority that you're engaged in every day.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Your your pastors, your small group leaders, people that God has put in your life to help you become a better person, to help call things out of your life.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think to your point, those are some of the people that we'll struggle with quietly.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: We'll talk about the president, we'll talk about the leaders, the world leaders, and the stock market, we'll talk about everything in the world that's happening, but we'll refuse to talk about the people that I should be following.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: Come on, man.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's actually closer to home, because those are the people that can shape you.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: There, they can be there's those are the people that can break you too.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so you actually should put more energy in like who am I following, you know, and um number one, we are all followers of Jesus Christ.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so we were talking about this before we started that we we shouldn't have a problem following because we're all called to follow Jesus Christ, right?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right there, absolutely 100%.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: Again, that's why I say it's ironic that we want to start first with leading, and then we struggle now with having to be a follower when, like you said, we are called lifelong to follow Jesus.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like we we not none of us as Christians will ever arrive at this point where Jesus will look at us and say, All right, man, I'm you know what, you you take the wheel.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna sit in the backseat.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: None of us will do that.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: As a matter of fact, the longer I walk with Christ Elmer, the more I'm thankful that he's in the lead.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Seriously.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I if you want to talk about leading well, you have to start first with following well, and that's following first Jesus Christ, who is our our good shepherd.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: But then it is also following human authority, civil authority, governmental authority, academic authority.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we have to start with with following that kind of leadership well.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do want to ask you this question here, Pastor Ellen.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever had the chance to make a leader look bad?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it would have benefited you.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And if so, what did you do, my brother?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: I plead the fifth.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Man, several times, just sometimes leaders forget things.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm just thinking across my whole life experience from a teenager till now, like I've always been able to lead close to the second chair or from the second chair, and and there's a lot of conversations that are had, and sometimes your leaders forget things, and and so you'll go back to the table and say, Hey, we're doing this, and they're like, What are you talking about?
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know what you're talking about.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: And you you know, you have notes, and and sometimes you can just be like, Look, but you said this, and and it's easy to just hold them accountable to things, but you also have to know your leader, and so over my experience I've learned like okay, I can kind of bring clarity here, and when it's gonna come across as I'm I am challenging authority, and when I'm asking just for clarity, and so uh there there have been several instances where that's that's the case, but yeah, yeah, but you you don't end up winning, like okay, you know, making a fool of of a leader or someone you're following doesn't benefit you.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I just think of this that I want to follow the way that I want to I want to lead others, and like do I want people calling me out on my stuff?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like I want to be held accountable, sure, no doubt on that, but I am gonna make mistakes, you know.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I make mistakes, and so I think P there's a grace that God gives us to be under certain leadership.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: So back to David's story, there was a grace that God gave David.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there was a grace, strength, and provision.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: God positioned him and kept him every week every single situation, kept him alive.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and he gave David strength, he provided the people that would protect him, even Jonathan, Saul's own son.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and so like that's crazy that God would put Jonathan in David's life to during that season that would keep him alive, you know, he would give him a heads up and all that stuff.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so God graces us so we can get through the difficult seasons.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we start feeling the need to embarrass or to belittle our leader, yeah, like you gotta be careful.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because all authority is set by God.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, and so you're not just challenging the individual as ridiculous as they might sound or crazy or wild, whatever.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Now you're you're challenging everything that God set in order because they will in in our in our in our situation with church, you know, in our setting, as pastors, we're gonna be held accountable by God, you know, for decisions that we're making and not making.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of times people they just want they just want the confrontation, yeah, you know, instead of holding us accountable, like, hey, like take it back to scripture.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love how you said that.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, to your point, I I think it's also about a desire for control.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I just think man, our the problems and the issues that we have with leadership ultimately come down like one or two columns.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's something else you and I were talking about right before opening up this this pod here, is that when we have disagreements or tensions or let me just say frustrations with leaders, it the the here's a great filter question for you to ask.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Again, we're talking about following well in order to lead well.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Is this a matter of policy or preference?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: What I mean by that is like if there's something that leadership is doing that is a violation of a directive or like a company rule or like a standard or even a statute, like a law, yeah, we have to address that.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like if there is illegal financial practices going on, if there is practices that are happening that endanger the lives of others, right?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: If they if there is like something that's happening that's an obvious sin issue for those of you that are in vocational ministry serving at a church or an organization, yep, those are things that that need to be addressed 100%.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I keep saying our situation.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: I meant ministry.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, I'm so sorry.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: But it's all good, man.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so though, yeah, those are things that that need to be addressed and need to be dealt with because like scripture commands and the Holy Spirit would would convict you to deal with those things.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And even then, you still have to be wise and you have to be God honoring.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: When it comes to preference, now that's personal.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really about things that great against your sensibilities.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So you may have a leader who leads.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: So when we talk about things of preference, man, these are just things that you just don't like about a specific person or a specific leader.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Man, I just don't like the way that they communicate.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: They can be a little gruff or flat out rude, or man, this person takes forever with follow-up, or just whatever the situation may be.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And okay, so you just don't like the way that they lead.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the problem is that we tend to make preferences, these moral absolutes.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so we say, well, because this person doesn't lead the way that I lead, then they must not be fit for leadership.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're not qualified.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we we can even make it moral, even spiritual, to say, you know what, man, God didn't authorize this.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, hold on now, pump your brakes and ask yourself, okay, is this an issue about sin and the law, like law breaking, or is this an issue about personal preference?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're honest, Pastor Omer, a lot of the disagreements and the tensions that we have with leaders, it's about preference.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: We just don't like the way that they lead, and that's okay.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: So then what you get to do is you get to decide, just like you were saying, No more, you get to decide, you know what?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to lead in a way that if I were in that chair, this is how I would do it.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just gonna uh in this moment here, I'm gonna exemplify what good leadership is in the seat that I'm in.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: My mother-in-law has been watching the new version of Little House Little House on the Prairie.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah, remake, yeah.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: On Netflix.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not watching it, but I glance and I see it.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember watching the old one when I was a lot younger.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: And life was so much more simple, like in those times.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like you had the blacksmith, you had the baker, you had like people were like they specialized in their craft.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's you went to those people for their skill and their gift.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you didn't question how if they did a good job, you didn't question if if there was another way to do it.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: At least I'm assuming I didn't live in those times, but just from a lot of the the movies and the books that I've read, like that's there was this respect of the craft that the people had.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so many different trades.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: Trades are start things that are starting to fade away.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like the plumbers and the electricians, and you know, all those things, blacksmiths, like uh shoemakers, you know, cobblers.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Cobblers, you barely see those around.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's right.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Come on, somebody.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: But but that's becoming a rarity where there's the people that are are gifted in one thing, and that we go to them and we ask for their leadership in that space.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because now everyone, through YouTube, ChatGPT, and Google and the internet, whatever platform you use, you can figure it out yourself.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's true.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so now we've learned to lead ourselves, or at least there's an illusion that we're that we're leading ourselves because at the end of the day, I don't know how to fix my car.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I am asking another source for information.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: When before I would just go to the mechanic.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's so good.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because and I would have to pay, and I knew I was gonna have to pay.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: But obviously, I want to save money, and so I think it's a better decision.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna go on YouTube and I'll actually end up breaking more things on my car than you know it started with.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I I just think there's this a shift in society that we want to fix everything on our own, we want to lead ourselves, we want to further ourselves, you know, and so I I all the way from spiritual leadership to just just how we were raising our kids, there's a there's some I can go on and on.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that because of that disconnect, because because now we don't value people's authority, we don't value people's gift, their their trades, their gifts, now everyone's an equal.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so then what that does is I can question everything you do.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I'll go to a restaurant, and this is just a kind of an analogy.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'll go to a restaurant, right, and if they didn't please me, I have every right to complain.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because the customers are always right.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it that's and then that's the thing.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: We've m taken a policy that was intended for the employees of the restaurant, and as the customer, we've taken advantage of something that was not for us to take up.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so for the employee, the customer is always right, means that they're gonna serve them well.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna if something didn't come out the way it was supposed to, they're gonna cater to it and and fix it.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so so nothing's gonna keep them from serving and making their experience better.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: So you're saying the goal is really extreme hospitality, like like that's extreme hospitality.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's good, man.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: But the consumer has taken it as like, oh, they're gonna do what I want.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so now you go to work, right, and then you your boss is telling you, hey, I needed this yesterday.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: What happened?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, hold on, you ain't gonna talk to me that way.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, because I am right.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the customer, but no, now you're the employee, and so so that our consumer mindset in our society where we we don't value people's gifts or their craft, we don't value their positions and their authority, we don't because we think we have it figured out.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: We think I can do better than him, I can do better than that.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how many people have not I'll just say this you know, in the music space in church over the years, there's this thing called auditions.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Elmer, for those that are uninitiated, what is an audition?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: An audition is when you want to join the worship team.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: Come on, and and you gotta sing a little bit, or you gotta play a little bit.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, sir.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then so you come, you prepare, and then you present your gift, and we tell you yes or no.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: You're gifted or you're not.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and some people you can go work on it, but not right now.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's been people that have approached me and been like, hey, you know, I sing way better than you.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, that's great.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, come on, audition, do your thing, right?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: They tell you that.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, they've told me, yeah, like I sing way better than you.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: And or I'll leave, yeah, I've I leave worship way better than you.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, that's great.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Have I got offended?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because if that's so true, like, come on, join the team, like take us somewhere we're we're not at.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, but the mindset of the individuals has always been, to your point at the beginning, to embarrass me or to kind of belittle me because they might come in feeling intimidated, and then all of a sudden they just kind of want me to be intimidated by them.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, bro, like you got it, you got it upside down here.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm gonna tell you yes or no.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so come in humble, come in with respect, you know.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: But but I think that's just our society.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we just feel like I can walk into any situation with you know, my head held high, obviously be confident, but just with so much pride, and and that's totally opposite to what what the Lord asks of us as we're called to be followers of him.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man, that is so good, Almer.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Man, dude, you you said a whole word and a half on that.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I talked a lot.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, that was I'm just saying, I really want to just spend some time just unpacking that because I I love that that pivot you made about the fact of where we are contextually and contemporarily, that we have made ourselves these leaders.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: We we've kind of like these unofficial leaders of our of our own lives.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Man, that is so good about you know the advent, especially of AI, YouTube, and and just online, where things before that were held tightly in these these guilds and these artists and these almost kind of like these craft sort of circles now that's just been freely available.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like and like say literally anything that you want to do that a professional does, you can learn how to do it.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so then I just yeah, and so now you delude yourself into thinking, oh, well then I I don't need leadership.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we think it's easy.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's the other thing, too.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's the problem.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's the we think it's easy.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, that person, that's a craft, that's what they do all day, every day.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: For over 20, 30 years.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like, yeah, great point.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, I'm a car guy.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: My dad was a mechanic in the army, taught me how to turn wrenches, but I never had that as a career.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so you and I we've talked some things.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you asked me some questions.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, man, it's kind of considered, but I ain't no pro.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't get paid to do that.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so, man, I wonder how many of us are amateur leaders.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my God.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Come on.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: When I want to be a professional follower, man.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Lord.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: I want that to be my upset.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: I want to do that every day, all day.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: When I wake up, I got the follower handle.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: I want to become a professional at following leadership.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, I want to become a professional following Jesus, but I want to be a professional following my leadership here at the church.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be a professional following pastors Mike and Stephanie.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be a professional following you.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: You're my leader.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like I want to be, because then I know that I will lead well.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm going to say, hey, I know what it's like to desire to be led well.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm going to lead well.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: But also I know the value and what leadership pours into me.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I want to do that same thing.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: I want to model how I'm poured into him so I can pour it into others.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it ain't about perfection, but it is about direction.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: You, Pastors Mike, Pastor Stephanie always point me to Jesus.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, well, that's so that's what I'm going to major on.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to Minor on the imperfections than you and everybody else on the planet.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Man, I'm preaching better than y'all.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna minor on the imperfections and I'm gonna major on the direction.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's how you follow leadership well.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Are they leading me to Jesus?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Then I can go forward.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: I can do that.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: They're gruff, they're rough, they they they're forgetful at times.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: So are you.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: Man, do you think, do you think for a second that you don't annoy somebody on this planet?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Seriously, or frustrate them, or slow down a process?
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, come on, man.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: What are we doing?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: If you got kids, just ask your kids.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: Am I a good parent?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Interview your kids.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Am I a good leader?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: Am I a good leader?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my lord.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Do I annoy you?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: You stepping on some toes now, brother.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what we're called to do.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Self-reflection is all part of leadership.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I do that better when I follow.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Man, I feel the Holy Ghost right now through this microphone in this studio right over here.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Jacob over here, you know, on the ones and twos.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: He got the what's that, Jake?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: You got Napuma zone?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Man, old school.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, praise the Lord.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Loyalty is not silence.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: So again, we want to follow well.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: And a part of following well is being loyal.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, absolutely.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think a leader has a right to expect loyalty because we expect loyalty from those that in our lives.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, man, like let's be friends.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be loyal to you because you're my brother in Christ.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: But it's not silence.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I love what you were saying earlier about like we don't want to seek to embarrass authority and leadership, but we can respectfully and humbly challenge them in a way that honors them and most importantly honors God.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: So can you just help us unpack that, yeah, Omar, about how loyalty is not silence, it's not just drinking the Kool-Aid wholesale.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Loyalty is I think there has to be there has to be a surrender when you're loyal.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, all right, in my case, like I know the Lord's called me to Pastors Mike and Stephanie.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's a loyalty, number one, to God, yeah, and then to my leaders.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm gonna be loyal to them.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Again, they don't they they have good days, bad days, regardless of the situation of the day.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I am here to serve.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: So so the objective of the relationship has to be clear.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like I have a mission, I have an assignment.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably the best way that I say it.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: My assignment is to serve them, to serve the house.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so that doesn't only happen between nine to five.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's part of the calling on my life.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: It might be different for other people, they're like, Well, I work at Target, and then I only work from like six to eleven, whatever.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then, but whatever the time frame is that you feel this is the assigned the time that the Lord has assigned me to these leaders, I'm gonna give them my best.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna give them what they've asked me to do.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so loyalty is shaped by by your personal decision to to surrender your preferences, which you mentioned earlier.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And and so it's not staying quiet and saying yes to everything.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so, in full transparency, whenever there is things that I not that I don't agree with, but that have not settled in me yet, yeah.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: I qu I ask questions.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I've learned that asking questions, asking for clarity is the best thing you can do, and doing it the right way and at the right time.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and so not just randomly, you know, you're in the middle of something where they're trying to fix something, and I just start asking because I want the information now.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, again, that comes with discerning the moment, and so I'll I'll really feel out the moment.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, all right, this is a good time to ask.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, hey, I'm struggling with this decision.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Can you give me more clarity?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Because the reason why I need clarity is because not because I want to be satisfied myself, but because I want to be able to cast the same vision down and share that same information to other people without filtering it through my emotions, without filtering it through my my perspective of life and ministry and all that.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: I want to, I want their heart, I want everything they're sharing to be communicated.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: I want the weight of it to to land on everyone else because like we talked about previous episode, we want them to everyone that we share to carry the weight of ownership.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's good, right?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's so good.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: So the danger in loyalty is that you you think you're shielding and you're protecting your leader when you're not like when you start filtering things on behalf of your leader to other people, you're actually hurting the organization.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so you you have to be able to let the weight of what they're sharing come all the way down.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so, in loyalty, a lot of times we'll we want them to look good, we want our leaders to to be come across as like the best in the world, and you know, no one to ever say anything bad about them because we want to protect them.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's the the leading thing here.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: We want to protect them from any distorted image or view of who they are, but in protecting them, we can also cause danger.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so that's where we have to be careful when they're leading, there's there's their leadership, and then there's who they are.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: And who they are is the like you are different, I'm different, we're all different.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: The Lord's made us all different, and the the Lord gives us grace to exist all in one space and to work together as a unit, right?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, in ministry.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so again, I said this before let the Holy Spirit do Holy Spirit things, right?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's things I might not understand how are we gonna do this, but the Holy Spirit always comes and provides and equips and empowers.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so being loyal is more than just showing up, it's more than just being present.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a lot of times that's what we we call we call our dogs loyal because our dogs are just there and they take all our crap.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, come on, man.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: But no one's no one's calling you to just be a dog, like you be loyal, but be faithful and be honoring, like that's so much more.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Loyalty is more than just showing up, it's yeah, it's understanding the situation, loving your leaders, praying for your leaders, yeah, being faithful to them in the good and the bad times.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I honestly I think that's there's so much to loyalty in that sense of you know, you're committed to the mission vision, you're you're you know that God's hand is there.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's so much more, man.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'll keep it.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, brother, I'm telling that right there could literally be its own podcast episode.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: I love what you said about, you know, we can sometimes unintentionally do more harm than good when we want to shield our leaders.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing that pastors Mike and Steph have said to us is hey, you don't have to defend me.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when we've had had when we've had to engage in hard conversations with people, you know, they might be grumbling or complaining, or this might be struggling with a decision that we've made specifically, like church-wide, not just even on like on our team, but like even on our church where we've talked with staff members or dream teamers or or our or our church guests.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's easy because, like you said, especially when you've known them for years and you know their heart, you know their character, and it's easy to want to say, you know, like to want to get defensive.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I I love their heart when they say you don't have to defend this because they know number one that the Lord's their defender.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then number two, you're not gonna get anywhere either way.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: You're just you're just when people are dead set on disagreeing with you and complaining, you ain't gonna change them.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: He does not.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: And and like you said, the Holy Spirit does the Holy Spirit things.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I love when you said one word I just kept hearing was way.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think loyalty, what loyalty does is help to transfer the weight down downstream.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's what makes you loyal is a willingness to transfer the weight downstream.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you do that?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: First, you got to grab the heart of your leader.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, man, I love, I've been challenged for even by hearing you say that.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to, I want to be more of that type of leader, just being, you know, here here on that team where I do seek to gain clarity, to gain understanding.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because I really want to I want to imitate the heart of our leaders because they're imitating the heart of God, which is the heart of a shepherd.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so I want to bear that weight down and say, hey, here's what it is.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, loyalty doesn't look for uh what's the word I'm looking for?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Man, all these words I know.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Loyalty doesn't look for conformity.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like there will be, man, when Pastor Mike shared that message about the the the Lord's Supper.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: And oh, so good.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: He just real briefly, Pastor Mike said that everybody at that table was not in full agreement, not with each other, and definitely not about Jesus.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: One of them betrayed him.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, but they were all gathered around Christ.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: They're at the table, they're at the table, and that is how we can maintain loyalty, is to say, you know what?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody in this room, everybody on this team at Life Point Church, at your organization, at your church, is, should be gathered around Jesus.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, I I'm willing to see clarity because I'm like, I want to see clarity because I want to continue to carry the heart of my pastors and my leaders, which is the heart of Christ, which is the heart of a shepherd.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I can push that weight downstream.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't have to force conformity, but I can say, hey guys, this is the weight that we all get to bear because it's the heart of a shepherd.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so that just kind of spills over into the practicality of how we do lead well as we wrap up.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so one way that, like you said, we do that, gain clarity and ask questions.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Assumptions will kill relationships faster than almost anything else in an organization.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Just and it's 1 Corinthians 13.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Love, believe the best.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think another thing that we can do is to ask what success looks like.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, what does it look like for us to win as an organization?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like what how do we know that like like we're we're we're doing the vision well?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how do we, you know, how what looks like success?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: What looks like winning, what looks like up and to the right movement?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: What what should we be prioritizing?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, what what are things that keep you up at night?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think these are questions that we can ask of of our leaders.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think other questions that we can ask, which is really hard, and this is for you personally as leaders.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking at you in the camera with these big old eyes.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: Ask your leaders, hey, what is it like to lead me?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: What is it like to lead me?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: Am I life-giving or am I exhausting?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Am I like a fresh air follower or am I a frustrating follower?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Just ask them.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you really want to grow, like if you really want, if you if you're really invested in helping to further the vision that God's given your leaders, if you really are invested in growing yourself as a follower into a leader, or you may already be leading, but you're a leader and a follower, right?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's just crazy.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm a leader and a follower.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: You're a leader and a follower.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you're really invested in growing, let me just say this as an individual, as a as a as a Christian, sometimes it's good to ask those kind of questions.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, what do you see in me?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and sometimes if you're not maybe ready to ask your leader, ask those that you that you lead.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: Ask those that know you, ask your mentor.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody should have a mentor.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Ask your leader, ask those that that you were saying earlier, like what as parents, and ask your kids, hey, what is it like uh to to to be my daughter, to be my son?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: What is it like?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: I re I really feel that I need to share this.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, sir.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: But several years ago, there was a leader that I actually asked him that question, and I go, you know, what can I do better, or where where am I struggling for you?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then they said, Well, you you tend to lie.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, What?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: You're calling me a liar?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: I go, What is ministry?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, and then he clarified, he says, You you hesitate to tell the truth and you hesitate to get to the truth, and so you're a liar.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, whoa, that's really hard.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I and I I'm like, please explain, because I'm like, all right, I want to take the correction, but this is hitting me like a ton of breaks right now.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and he unpacked just situations where I I was he was asked for information, and instead of just telling him, I would kind of say, Well, this is happening, and because of that, this is happening, and he just felt like I was just dragging information around him, and so in his eyes, it's like I'm just fibbing, I'm just lying, because I can't just get to the truth.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: I I I didn't get it like at the moment, but then as time went on, I asked again, I'm like, Hey, how do I get better at that?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he goes, When I ask you something, just tell me.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't need all those details.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: So knowing your leader helps because in his eyes, I was his liar.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was wasting time and not just speaking the truth immediately, yeah, and or the information that he wanted.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so it was a slap in the face because I'm like, what?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like me lying, and but then I I did see like I'm like, okay, yeah, you know, my English teacher used to say I I wrote too much when I would write.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: I I should and I do, I overthink, I and so then it made me reflect, self-reflect.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's like maybe I'm not communicating what needs to be communicated, and wow, it's not what he's asking.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe I'm not listening, maybe I'm not communicating what I need to.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so just over the time under this leadership, I was able to correct that, and so so I could be a better leader for him, yeah, and the things that he was asking me to do, and be a better follower ultimately.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: But that was a hard, a hard kind of slap in the face.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: But it started with me asking, Yes, hey, what am I not doing well?
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: How can I be better at this?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and he's like, Well, this is what it is, this is what it is, yeah.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, and again, the clarity is what helped.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, to just hear like you're a liar, yeah.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man, I'm offended.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like that that that can seem insulting.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's insulting, and I'm I'm out at deuces.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you don't call me a liar, right?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right, but I'm like, okay, you're you're my leader.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: Why would you say that?
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's it, right?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: What about it?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then so then the unpacking of it helped me see, okay, all the fluff has to go.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: In this season, in this seat, the there's no room for fluff.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: I need to just be direct.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: Here it is, here it is, here it is, here it is.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that's helped shape me in my leadership today.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, all right, let's just be direct, let's just be honest.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: Let's not let's not wait.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: This needs to be said now, and you know, so just what for what it's worth.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Come, brother.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: That right there was a word.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I appreciate you sharing that.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: That blessed me.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Don't be a liar, dad.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be a liar.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Just just don't, just don't.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: Man, that was so good.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Elmer, this has been a fantastic episode, man.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've been uh I've been encouraged for sure.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I I don't know, man.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, maybe you and I can discuss, you know, offline, but I I don't know, man.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we need to consider a part two through this.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Seriously, man, because like you said, this is so rich.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Just that loyalty piece you just shared was so good.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I really would uh like to maybe unpack some more of that because it was that was rich and deep, just about what what loyalty really looks like.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think some people do struggle with that, and maybe they are in situations that are truly unhealthy, or they are maybe there are some things that the Lord is stirring and pressing in them that need to be addressed, and there's there's fear.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you should never have to fear good leadership.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because this also spills into the home, and I I agree with you.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: This there's so many angles to loyalty, yeah.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and so yeah, if we can unpack it, we we'll we'll do it.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Next episode, yes, I we'll do it.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: All right, until then, peace out.