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How to Maximize Value From Freelance Workers · Humanity Working

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Take the signals and decide when in the in the in the year you should be pushing, because there's a lot of work coming in, and where you can actually be stepping down and taking a day off here and there.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it not only gives you the autonomy to understand when to push and when to remove the food out of the pedal, but it also gives you the signals and the reminder that there are days when you there are weeks that when you invest five days, you're going to be very productive, but you have the luxury of taking only that four days.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: In today's episode of Humanity Working, Paul sits down with Santiago Jaramillo, the co-founder of Bunny Studio.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Bunny Studio describes itself as a creative fulfillment platform which delivers services such as voiceovers, writing, video and design services.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: They have thousands of freelance creatives all around the world and match those people to organizations who want them.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Paul wanted to talk to Santiago because he brings a really interesting perspective on how to get great results from people, even when they're not working directly for you.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: There are really great lessons you can learn here that range from setting clear expectations, managing complex projects, and even interesting ways to blend human effort with AI.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: One quick note Paul and Santiago actually spoke a few months back when he still was CEO of Money.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: He's since stepped down from that role and is now, in his words, slowing things down for a while.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a rare opportunity to hear a CEO in a more reflective mood toward the end of his tenure.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is brought to you by Billion Minds.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Billion Minds helps companies be ready for the future of work by developing adaptable, resilient employees.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: You can learn more about them on LinkedIn or by visiting billionminds.com.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: And if you like this episode, please like and review us on your favorite podcast app.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, let's get on with it.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: All right, I'm very happy today to be joined by Santiago Haramillo, who is the CEO of Bunny Studios.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Bunny manages end-to-end creative services from voiceovers to motion graphics, from audio ads to dubbing projects.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: They help companies scale their team their team's needs with a crowd of 15,000 plus creators and over 90 different languages.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the pod, Santiago.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Paul, for having me here.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's a pleasure.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Let's start with how Bunny Studios works as an organization.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: Your creators, I know you call it a platform, but ostensibly they're part of a marketplace.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's a bit of how they're organized.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: So what does that mean in terms of how they're distributed?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: How do the creators even become aware of you?
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and how are they effectively delivered to uh to the customers?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Good.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: So there are about 15,000 people uh working in the in the company as creators.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they're based in the US, the UK, you can go to South Africa, they're gonna be in Singapore, Japan, uh, in a lot of different uh countries.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of demographics that we address with a lot of different skill sets as well.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and then what we do in the product to organize work is the platform where it actually intervenes, it's to organize the skill sets in an accessible way for the buyer.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're gonna be creating or potentially localizing your podcast into German, uh, then the organization of the crowd is very important.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: And the skill sets that they come with are very important to organize as well.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: Think about uh content localization of a medical article or a lawyer uh of a law, yeah, concept.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: Some of those things you want to make sure that the skill sets are organized, and then the database organizes that skill sets, and then people can actually access through the demographics and through the skill sets what they're gonna be buying.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: That would be the first part of how the crowd is organized.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: The second part that you want to think about it is there's a lot of uh in-house and email-based solutions in terms of communication.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things that we pride ourselves on at Bonnie is that we do focus a lot on quality and we focus a lot on speed.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Those are two areas that we that we heavily emphasize uh to our buyers what they're gonna be getting at the end.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then the system is built to be a 24-7 open platform when anyone can buy from anyone.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, in that 27 uh component, one of the things that you have to organize is the time zone of the crowd to make sure that whenever you're buying something at uh, I don't know, potentially in Seattle, uh, you're gonna be, and the creator is in Germany again using the same example, then the time difference is gonna work for the expectation of the deliverable.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then you add a component of time zone that works into that production.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but other than that, you have an internal uh we have an internal communication tool to communicate how the pro whenever there's a project to be created, uh, whenever there's a deliverable sent to the client, and then old-fashioned, email-based, it's an external tool, it's an external vendor for a lot of our buyers.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: So we emailed for communication.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then to your third question, how are the assets delivered?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: We also manage an in-house tool.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: So companies can actually go to the platform, uh, request what they're buying, but the creator can actually upload all of the assets to the platform and the client is able to access them.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: We organize them, think about a Dropbox, think about a Google Drive, when we properly organize all of these assets that can be on a project of one asset to thousands of assets, so the buyer can actually access the information uh very easily.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: And as you think of mirrors, when you think about remote organization, one of the concepts that I'm sure you've discussed um with other guests here on your own product, it's there's a lot of how do you access information.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, how do you make sure that you find what you're actually uh looking to find?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that's one of the things that we do uh heavily on the production of the of the of the product.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: People can upload content in an organized way, and whomever is searching and buying can find this content in an easy way.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how long has Bunny been around?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: We've been in business for 11 years and a half.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I've been running and being part of this company for a while now.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Very interesting.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I would imagine, because a lot of what you're talking about there is technology, organization, um, and and basically kind of making sure that the data flows effectively within your organization in a streamlined way.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Have those been many of the innovations that you've had to create over the course of the last few years in order to be able to make sure that things run smoothly?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's actually a good question.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not the typical question that I get when people listen about Bonnie Studio.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: But uh the reason I find it to be a good question is think about having 10,000 to 15,000 people, uh, think about having more than 100 different skill sets and think about having more than 50 different demographics.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: And organizing that and putting it together, uh, that can be a that could be thought about a trivial problem of well, you just put a search and then there's a request and there's a send, and that's it.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: But there's a lot of things happening behind the scenes.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: The way that I actually explained what we ended up building over the last 10 years is think about if an Amazon warehouse when you have a lot of products that are organized on a lot of different categories, and then when a request happens in Amazon, uh the robots that are uh on the Amazon warehouse with a lot of human power uh support in the process go and pick up the product, go through the delivering process that it has to go, and actually end up on our houses on whatever uh we actually ended up buying.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: What we ended up doing was taking all of the skill sets from all the creators with all of the demographics and organizing them on an accessible warehouse where robots, so it's powered by technology, can actually access these skill sets whenever it's in need, making sure they're available, making sure they have the quality from whomever is buying something, and making sure it will be delivered in the specific time frame that the customer, the buyer is looking to get their asset.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: The technology access that sends you the product, and it happens in parallel not to one, to ten, but we actually serve 6,000 customers on a yearly basis with very unique workflows.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it allows the technology allows people to access a big crowd of talent, uh, create a lot of content without ever having quote unquote issues in the process of delivery.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then at the end, you get a voiceover, extremely very fast delivered in 90 minutes, which is sometimes what we do.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you get an animation that takes a couple of weeks or even a month in a couple of days, and you can dub or localize a lot of content that would take you months, you can do it in a couple of weeks.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: And all of that has to do with the organization of the system and the skill sets and the warehouse that happens behind the scenes.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know what interests me about this, I think, probably the most, Santiago, is that when people are first kind of making their way in this in this world, one of the things that they think about immediately is this crowd, this enormous um set of resources that are potentially available to them.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: But then, particularly if they're uh if they lack experience in doing it, then they start to run into often what they consider to be the challenges.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, for example, how do I ensure quality?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: How do I make sure that um the thing that I'm asking for is being uh is well understood and being delivered, particularly if I'm dealing with people that are have lower familiarity with my needs and my organization, particularly if I'm dealing with people that are in different that are in different time zones.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I I guess one of the questions that I have for you is what would be your main advice to customers in order to get the most out of services like yours?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think it goes to one specific element, which is signals.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think the world actually goes around signals.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: We build signals to take decisions either on where we go to study, uh, which company we choose to work for, uh, or in this case, uh which creators or people you're gonna be uh working with to augment whatever process you're augmenting uh in your company.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: And in that regard, a lot of companies have different ways of addressing it, but you can receive signals in terms of very straightforward things, um, like a rating of the professional, uh, reviews of the professional.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then in that regard, you do the same uh in regards to ratings of the company, reviews of the company.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: And you can review one of the things that I would do depending on the complexity of the system that I'm looking to augment in this case, uh, has to do with what is a vetting process that a company has uh to create a crowd of talent.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I would pay attention to the vetting process, uh, because depending on how the vetting process goes, even if it exists, there are companies, a lot of marketplaces in this case that they don't have a vetting process, which is fine.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: They have other types of signals for that to for the system to work.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but if you have a vetting process in place, it should give you some layer of confidence uh that there's a that there's a filter for the creators to join the crowd, and then you get additional system signals in the platform uh that should guide you on how to take a decision and who to work with.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got this large number of people, 15,000 or so people all around the world that are doing uh work for customers that themselves are all around the world.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then of course you've got your own internal organization that supports that.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think what might be interesting for a lot of people is what have you what have you learned, right?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: What have you learned from that, from from the group of 15,000 that influences how you organize Bunny Studios itself, the people that the people that work for you on a day-to-day basis as full-time employees?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: So we are about 90 people at Bonnie Studio running uh this platform, and then we are distributed in a lot of different places.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: There are a few people in the US.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm actually taking this call from Colombia, from Bogota today, uh, and then there's uh team members in Brazil, Argentina, uh, there's someone in Egypt, there are a few people in uh Berlin, the Netherlands, Spain.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, someone from the team is in this call from uh from Spain, and then there's someone in Singapore.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: So we're Natish people with a lot of cultural backgrounds, a lot of different time zones, uh serving customers mainly in the United States, with a crowd of people that are all over the world.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of combination that happened here.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: And potentially, as we go into more specific cases, the biggest abstraction that I've learned uh in terms of running a remote organization is that you need to define yourself as a remote first company, if that's what you're pursuing, right?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because all of the systems that you build below that definition will be heavily impacted by understanding that you are remote, right?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: If you are trying to be remote friendly, it's different from saying I'm remote first.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: If you are hybrid, it's different from saying I'm remote first.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because then your objective setting, your planning, uh, your performance, your promotions have a different layer of reading than saying you're hybrid, management exists in Seattle, and then we execute from somewhere else.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's really a definition on where hybrid management is in a hub and then the executor is in a different place.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: So how you understand yourself will impact the systems that you build around your company.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Did you know from the outset that that's what you wanted to do, that you wanted to have an organization that was spread all over the world?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: So that's an interesting question.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: We when we when we started the company with my partner many years ago, uh, he lives in the US, I live in California, uh, and then we were hiring people, hearing a lot of people here in Colombia back in the day, 12 years ago almost.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: And um we wanted to have first a hybrid approach.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we build a hub in San Francisco for about seven, eight people, and then we build a hub in Colombia with about 25, 30 people, very early on or even less, I can't recall exactly.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but we our first approach was to have a hub.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then we started having a lot of issues in the process, uh, specifically the hybrid concept.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because it was like, okay, so are we gonna be building hubs?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and then if I want to hire someone in a different country, should we build a hub for that person to be there?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but there's no the concept of multiple people in that office because I just only hired one person.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: So we went from a hub version.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: A second version we ended up having was oh, or the progress went to a hybrid um structure where we actually allowed people to run offices if they were in the same city, or work from their home if they were not uh if they actually didn't want to go to a city, to I'm sorry, to an office space.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: So even if you were in the same city where there was a hub, but you didn't want to be part of that hub, you could actually opt out and work from home.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: And the last version that we ended up doing before uh the pandemic arrived was like we were becoming a remote first organization that allowed people to actually collectively hire a WeWork, for example, if there were two or three people.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: And if you wanted to go on a daily basis with another colleague in the same city to that We work, you could do it.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh then the pandemic arrived.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then we eliminated that last uh concept of getting to a WeWork every once in a while that you want it, and then we became fully remote uh home office based uh in the last four years.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it's being a progress from a hybrid version to a fully remote with a lot of versions in between.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that's a that's a fascinating evolution.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think what I think will interest a lot of people will be the fact that a lot of that came before the pandemic, the vast majority of that came before the pandemic.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, what was driving the evolution?
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Was that you're just getting a deeper understanding of of what it took to get out of your people?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Was it the your staff saying to you, this is what I want?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: What was leading you towards that path?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: That you could find really good talent without it outside the traditional hops that you think about.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of great talent that is not there's a lot of good talent in New York and in Los Angeles, don't get me wrong, but you can find a lot of good talent that is not in these two hops, or you could get a lot of good developers that are not only in San Francisco, and you're limited by the concept that there has to be a proximity uh to the other individual uh to actually find these good people.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not the case.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: And not only I've met a lot of remote companies that are remote first companies in the US, uh, the fact that we're a lot of uh, I'm not an immigrant because I'm not living in the US, but uh, we're a lot of nationalities uh blending happening here at Bonnie Studio give us the opportunity of understanding, well, if I can hire a great designer that is working from Nigeria, can I find a great developer that actually works for the company from Nigeria?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: And uh if I can find a great copywriter that is working in in, I don't know, Singapore, can that great copywriter be the copywriter of the product uh working in Singapore, which by the way is a real case?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so in that regard, there's it came more from the abstraction that good talent, it's everywhere.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a matter that a lot of companies don't know how to connect with that talent, and I get the complexities on the difficulties to do it.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: But if you could, why wouldn't you?
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: So then that leads me to the obvious and natural question, which is there is this talent everywhere, but it sounds like you've done a pretty good job of finding it.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Is the um is that related to the fact that you've got these this group of 15,000 people uh as well?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: Is that a source for you?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Or what techniques are you using to find this great talent that is all around the world?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I I think it comes in in in three things come to mind.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: One, there are full-time team members within the organization that are building Bonnie Studio every day that have come through the crowd.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: So that has been one uh proxy to find uh talent in the company.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, an additional element, it's um traditional job oper job boards, like you're gonna find Indeed working very well in a lot of countries, you're gonna find LinkedIn working very well in a lot of countries.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then we go to simple job boards um that are friendly into the markets that we know there's talent that we could potentially access.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then the third thing is we're if there's one thing in our recruitment process that we can be proud of, and there are a lot of things to highlight, we're good at vetting talent.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: So one of the big challenges that a lot of companies have, for example, hiring um engineers in in Brazil or in Nigeria or in Southeast Asia, and they scare and they're scared about is if I go and hire in these countries, how do I know they're good?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: And somehow the proximity we're talking about signals earlier.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, if it's in San Francisco, it's gonna be good.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: So that signal removed the process to go into an additional uh process to your recruitment process.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but if you can actually build good vetting system of skill sets and strengths that you're hiring, then it's the same application for a Nigerian uh professional from a Colombian, from a Brazilian, from an American, just run the process.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: And if they have a good application, then they're good.
• 19:28
  unknown: Right.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: I that resonates with me a great deal.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: So um in our company, for example, we um 90 plus percent of our uh of our design work and our for our application and our coding is done out of Eastern Europe.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: And and you start to see, like when you when you first start doing it and you start to feel uncomfortable, you start to realize that there's a lot of bias, there's a lot of cognitive bias going on that actually isn't related to how good these people are.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't actually take long to start working with people on a day-to-day basis to to start to realize that you know there's this amazing talent all around the world.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if you do have a means of efficiently tapping into it, it actually puts you at a significant advantage than it would than it would do otherwise.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: But I that's one of the pieces of guidance I think I send out to people generally, which is like try it.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it like like try it with a couple of different employees, right?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And see what uh and see what you can do.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: And once you start to put the mechanisms into place, they benefit you anyway.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because, sure, yeah, a lot of people in San Francisco are good, but you can still hire somebody bad in San Francisco.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and so it happens everywhere, but yeah, and so what it will lead you to is an improvement in how you uh how you vet your employees, how you recruit in general, which will serve you uh beyond just the ability to be able to recruit these people from elsewhere from elsewhere.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: So um love that love that you're doing that and love that effectively you're living inside your organization many of the values that that are provided by your by your organization, which is great.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we've talked about ostensibly your internal organization being uh being this fully remote organization as well.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you've also experimented with some flexibility in terms of um not just when people work, which is going to be natural because of the time zones you're in, um, but also you've experimented with things like four-day work weeks and uh and other different kind of non-traditional uh working models when it comes to time.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you did a I know you did a four day work week experiment.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's evolved a little bit.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: So why don't you talk us through that, uh talk us through that process?
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'll guide you through that and and please don't forget me to talk about you.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: You we were discussing earlier about the role of management in these frameworks.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you asked me about how does Management lead in these examples, and I'll tell you about it in a minute because there's always a contradiction in everything that we do here.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: But going back to 40 work weeks, so we were in the pandemic.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of us have a different way of living the pandemics.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: We are a company that had that we're a very unique company because again, we're businesses in the United States, but the number of employees that I have in the United States didn't allow us to access some of the benefits in terms of payroll that other companies were able to access.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: I have businesses in the European countries, but I didn't have enough employees to actually go and have the benefits that European companies accessed.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: So we were running a business making sure that things didn't break in the process.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: This is March, uh, April, uh, May, which was a lot of unknowns, uncertainties going around.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then we ended up doing something which is that was potentially, I remember it was my decision, like, hey guys, we're not gonna be working five days, we're gonna be working six days.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I need management to be focused on looking at every single number Saturday, 8 a.m.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: And we're gonna be here until 1 p.m.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then without noticing, like I think all of us said, yes, let's do it.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: We have to be extremely aware about what's happening in the market and make sure that we can react as fast as we can.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and then we ended up burning ourselves very quickly.
• 23:18
  unknown: Yeah.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: From uh in about three to five months, we actually were burnt out.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, it was not something that we were discussing, but then we were having a conversation with Micah Hockman, who leads our people operations team, and uh, and then she discussed not only the intensity that we were doing within the company, but the cognitive intensity of being isolated in your house, which is different from being remote.
• 23:43
  unknown: Yes.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like I can be in a remote setup and I can go grab a beer with my friend after this.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but we were living in the setup that we were remote, completely isolated from any other external human interaction from our core family, right?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then that added a lot of issues in our brains that we, again, we all live in different ways in different parts of the countries, uh, in different countries.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_02: And um part of the proposal that Micah said, hey, let's cut a day.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: Let's not only remove that six days that we were doing for a few months, remove Friday.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: And there's always been the flexibility in the company of experimenting and including how the organization evolved as an experiment.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then we said, let's cut Fridays.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: And then we cut Fridays, expecting the output to be similar.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then we run a clean, no Fridays policy.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, depending on the teams, it would be a Monday or a Wednesday.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, if you have customer success or sales, you wanted them to be around through the week.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but then we ran it for about uh six months and it had a great impact.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it was a fantastic effort.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we did not see productivity or productivity, and actually, output was not affected, but productivity did increase on a day-to-day basis.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because when you think about it, we are working, we pride ourselves, right, in this remote computer technology scene.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: We're part of we pride ourselves of working 10, 12 hours, 15 hours in front of the computer, but a lot of that time is time that you're looking at the screen.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, like somehow your brain got into a procrastination that you cannot get out of, uh, and then you're losing time.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: The first signal that we saw when we removed Fridays out of the schedule was well, if I'm gonna be doing this Monday, Thursday, I rather make sure to deliver what I have to deliver without that procrastination effort.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: And that was very positive to see how there's a lot of self-organization and a lot of responsibility on every individual to say, what do I need to change in my own schedule to deliver what I was delivering Monday, Friday to deliver Monday, Thursday?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it's actually achievable.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: And the second element is a lot of people were looking, specifically parents, were looking to get Friday off to do life logistics that they were not able to do Monday, uh Friday before.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: There was like, I mean, if you have kids, or if anyone that is listening has have kids, living with kids during the pandemic with work, I think that's the most common discussed topic on the internet, right?
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so giving Fridays off was an incredible benefit.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then that built a lot of rapport between the organization and individuals during those first six months, even nine months.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: The second stage goes as follows, which is how do you get to the point that you measure the specific output of uh of a project like a four-day work week?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then that's where it becomes a little bit more gray.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: You get a lot of qualitative information and you get a lot of early signals that things are working out.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but then we did push a bit in the midterm.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like what happens specifically?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: This was a rationale that I discussed uh with Mike, and part of the reason of why we ended up in the version that we have today, um, which is what happens when you set up.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: So you got from working five days uh consistently, you organize your setups to be very productive for four days, but then you will get used to those four days, and you will get used to a pace that goes to those four days, and potentially some of the non-productive elements that you had before will come back to those four days.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so kind of cream.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then the productivity, the output will not be the same of five days, but the one of four days.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then we also saw some friction in certain teams where we had a couple of teams that out of the necessity of pushing to make sure that they emerge certain their lens, started to push consistently on a Friday.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: But then you had other teams that were like, I'm taking my Friday off.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: There's nothing in the world that could happen in the company that I'm going to be replying an email or doing something on Friday.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, very, yeah, that's not a universal statement that happened here and there anecdotally again.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Because again, it's very difficult to measure this completely quantitative.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of qualitative data in the process.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: And then out of that reflection and conversations with the team, we ended up in a model that we have today, and we've been running it for a couple of quarters, which is a push play learn day.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: And what we do is there's the fifth day of your week that you can organize in your quarter and in your year, where we have peaks of work in a specific month, and then we have also peaks that are coming down uh on work in specific uh months for specific teams.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: So what we ended up organizing was hey, these are signals of how our operation works through the year.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Take the signals and decide when in the in the in the year you should be pushing, because there's a lot of work coming in, and where you can actually be stepping down and taking a day off here and there.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it not only gives you the autonomy to understand when to push and when to remove the food out of the pedal, uh, but it also gives you the signals and the reminder that there are days when you there are weeks that when you invest five days, you're gonna be very productive, but you have the luxury of taking only that four days, and you avoid, to some extent, you avoid having that repeatedness that it's always four days or it's always five days, you have certain um management on on that aspect.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that all sounds very interesting and and kind of intriguing.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: You're a company that almost like was one of the earlier adopters of this of this four-day work week.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: You did it early, and now you've adjusted and adapted away from it just uh at least just a little bit.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting, just in terms of there's often a difference with any of these things.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's the like this is an example.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, another example would be unlimited personal time off.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: All of these things, they have an immediate impact, and then there is a shift that happens over time as human behavior naturally changes over time.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: And we're even seeing that in remote and hybrid work setups as well, in general.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's a difference between being a remote work company for six months and a remote company for 10 years, and there are different um, you know, subtleties and changes that that that happen inside organizations as those occur.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing I think is interesting as well, and I'm curious, and it kind of reminds me of the unlimited personal time off um example.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: There must be a lot of sort of unwritten cultural um aspects to this, but then also unwritten cues that people take.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not just talking about sort of like culture in the different countries, I'm talking about like culture within culture within the company, right?
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um you're you're the CEO of the company, so you're ostensibly you know the ultimate role model in the in the company, in the sense that people will look to what you do personally, and then obviously people will look to other managers inside your organization.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you do personally to try to role model the right behaviors?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: I never take time off.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's the big uh funny thing about all the conversation that happens, and that's constantly the same feedback that I get from uh, again, I have to point at Micah, who's like, Santi, we're building all of this, and then you never take a freaking Friday off, or you never take a week off, or you're not actually you're actually pushing that uh uh those elements.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: So whatever we do, you actually go into something that is very specific that we all that we also discuss internally, which is you're writing an unwritten rule uh that we have all of these documents uh, but the CEO doesn't follow them, therefore you shouldn't follow them as well.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: And there's always been a friction.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and and and I always try not to, like whenever people are taking time off, I never step in, or if people are off for a Friday, I never step in.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but I do get the mirror of, well, I have to push here and there.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, some of the things that I I do in that regard, there's a couple of things that said.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh one, um I'm I'm learning to be more conscious about my time off, and it's always a constant process.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, so I'm looking this year, we're actually uh organizing ourselves to have mandatory minimum days off.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: So we're not a fan of an unlimited policy because there's always that's not true really, like you cannot go on vacation for two years.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that's it, you broke it.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but we're looking to make sure that we have 21 days off as a minimum requirement.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: And my calendar this year for the first time has 21 days off properly demarket in April, uh late June, and there's something in October.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: So my first 21 days are organized onto taking ad.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I do take here and there Fridays uh afternoons off.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, it's hard for me for a lot of meetings not to be around a full day, but I do get off here and there on a Friday, uh, on a Friday, and I do not reply to emails or anything until uh the next couple of days um on the weekend.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_02: And um what else am I doing?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was harder to think.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's actually following the frameworks that we're putting together, uh, where it's my own personal process.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, love the minimum time off one.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: We're seeing that um a couple of things that we've seen uh which are sort of net new, uh, which I think are really effective.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: So one is that um is minimum amount of time off.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a reflection of the fact that you know, this this thing in in our skulls needs rest, right?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and so doing that forces you to be able to do that and most likely uh leads to in you know innovations and creativity and all that kind of stuff um that are extremely important.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so recognition of that um of forcing some downtime is very helpful.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing we've seen, which I think is kind of interesting, is um new employees.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very um it's very common for people to jump from old job to new job without any decompression time between the two.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes people are smart enough about it and they say, okay, I'm gonna take a week off before I start.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um we are starting to see inside several organizations now the idea that you start with the company and literally your very first week is is paid time that you're not in the company, right?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: We start you with a vacation.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's a real I think it's a really, really smart, really smart thing to do because the moment that you're in, you're drinking from a fire hose.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so why not have somebody rested to be able to drink from the uh to be able to drink from that fire hose?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: So those sorts of ideas are really starting to take hold inside organizations.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for companies that are thinking about acting as remote or high or hybrid organization, oftentimes they think, well, hang on, we're we're giving people all this freedom already just by making sure that they are, you know, by allowing them not to come into the office, not to have a commute and all that kind of stuff.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: So why do we need to do these other things as well?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, what it's forgetting is the fact that work and the rest of your life merge or tend to merge a great deal more when you are working remotely.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: So actually having time off is something that can be more important versus less important.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really cool to hear you doing that as an organization.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: As we finish up here, it's just a couple of things that I'd love to uh love to go into.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think I think one is just delving a little bit more detail about what you said that people were basically getting more done in less time as they started to think about how to make a four-day work week work for them.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: In general, what do you think are lessons that people can learn from in terms of how you can go about reducing workloads without causing deadlines to slip?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Technology, for example.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: How can you use technology in order to be able to do that?
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, um before we get into technology, I think there's a clear I think it all starts with a framework of communication between management and and team members who are executing.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: And that framework goes specifically into what is it important, the output on the number on the or the speed in which I reply to Unislack.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh do you want me to make sure that I that I get things done or do you want me to reply to Unislack?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: And if and if the matter is that we're focused on getting things done, then if you're building the right teams, everyone is capable of understanding pain points in their execution process.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like we can lie as much as we want about saying, yes, I know am I procrastinating for this or not, this reason, but it is possible to do an abstraction on pinpointing and being self-aware of what are things that you have to do to improve as an individual.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: And when you have that agreement, that again, you don't have to reply on a Slack on Friday, then good.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: I should take advantage of that and make sure to improve it, go Monday, Thursday, and I don't have to reply to Slack on Friday.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: That works very well and it's starts on that agreement between management and team members.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's the third, the first thing that comes to mind.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: Now, when you think about um uh tools, I also think about agreements.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because a lot of the tools that you do, either that's asynchronous communications, either slack, a confluence, a notion, whatever every company is doing, it all goes to agreement.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna be spending a lot of time reading a poorly written report.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, if we find agreements on how a good report is written, then you only have to read it once.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that's gonna save me the fact that I have to reread it three days after I gave you the feedback so I don't have to repeat the task.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: So when you think about it, when it comes to individual execution, we have a lot of control where the noise starts in organization is how the organization assembles themselves in exchange of information, in exchange of expectation.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's where the noise appears.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where I think a lot of companies, a lot of management should spend a lot of time.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: Why are you repeating three times the same document?
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like what happened on the first time that you wrote the document that is that is not properly communicating whatever the question was, so that the information flows in a proper way from the get-go and not repeating it two, three times through one or two weeks.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because that if you've listening or you or you've been in the case, you repeat information three weeks and you're just discussing the source of the information.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then peer grouping, we do a lot of peer peer feedback reviews, and in, but not only on us performance of individuals, but it's like sitting down, a group of people and brainstorming about hey, how did you get done a specific project and building up structures that are relevant to your own organization that otherwise you wouldn't be able to learn?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because we do a lot about we everyone, and I think we all go into the pitfall of let's read what people are doing outside my organization to learn how they're actually doing it, but we invest less time actually looking inside the organization to learn what people in my organization, in my particular universe of work, are actually doing well.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: So you get a lot of CEOs.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: I've been that CEO when I read a blog post about how people are being productive, and I tell Tim, this is how you have to be productive.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then I ask someone about how they're doing something like, oh wow, that's actually smarter and better than what I read.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: So investing the time and looking at how people are getting a lot of things on and understanding who are your top performers and why, that's very important.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: I I'll give you one quick example that we recently do at uh customer operations, so customer success.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: There's one outlier in terms of performance.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: He's fantastic.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, uh he's a German guy living in Mexico, and then uh he always performs better on a weekly basis than anyone else.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then what we ended up doing in this quad is that hey, you know what, you're gonna stop 50% of your execution and you're gonna spend 50% building and documenting how the hell you address your work so that our others can mirror.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: And by doing it already two months into the quarter, we've seen improvements in some of the other under colleagues by taking this individual as a mirror for others to understand how the how he was doing his job and why he was an outlier in the team.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: So when you think about it, it's go inside rather than we can read a lot.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: And there's everything has been written already.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: Go inside and understand how to make it.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: That would be my foot, my my thought process.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll finish with a question that I think will be at the um sort of in the heads of a of a few folks that have listened to this podcast regularly.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: We've learned we've talked a lot about um the idea that the people that are doing your work can be anywhere.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that great people exist uh exist anywhere, and you've got basically 15,000 of those people that are available largely on the uh on demand for people to use, as long as they understand the right questions to ask and how to frame what they uh frame what their requirements are.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I know inside a lot of people's heads right now, and particularly in this world of of creative work, for example, is how do I get from um having this need that a need and a requirement that I have to having that need being fulfilled by a combination now of people and AI type techniques?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because we hear a lot from people right now who are thinking about their organization and how their organization should be structured, they're seeing all these announcements around AI, they're seeing products, like products launch in in like no time that will create like an Instagram reel for you and uh immediately, or will create um you know, sets of tweets for you that will spread out for the next for the next six months, and you take 30 minutes to create them, and they're not bad.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: So as you're trying to trying to figure that out as an organization, how do you go about doing that and understanding what is the right mix between people and artificial intelligence capabilities?
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: How are you thinking about it, even I'm actually like out of coincidence, I am thinking a lot about the concept of blending.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: So blending human capacity with AI power.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: And where can you build a process of creativity when you have input from a create a human creator and then you have input from a robot?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and there are different aspects when you can do it in the short term.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like what will happen in 10 years?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not the right person to ask.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think we will uh know in 10 years what actually ended up happening with all of uh this uh revolution.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um the speed at which it's happening is very fast as for today, but they've been working on this for six, seven, eight years.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: So it's new that we're seeing it on the market.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: But there's a lot of things that have been people having working on this for almost a decade or more.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um so when uh and that that was going to the point that at least for the next 18 months and potentially three years, I see a lot of blending synergies uh where a designer can work with their customer and they can actually use AI to communicate before the final piece is created.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's actually one of the use cases that we have with one of our customers, where they were creating an animation and they actually use one of uh uh these tools and said, you know, guys, uh I went into this tool, pitched what how I wanted my characters to be.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: This is the output.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_02: Can we work around this output?
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: So what he ended up doing is from someone that was not a designer uh to someone that is a designer, the AI was able to speed the communication element of it.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: So instead of verbally communicating what he wanted and the designer taking their input and actually going through a lot of um drafts, he was able to reduce a couple of uh hours or days on work by taking the draft of AI, getting to the designer, and the designer was ready to work on the final output, taking that into consideration.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you're gonna be able to see a lot of we're doing something at Bonnie City today where we're um we built a tool.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: For post-production.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: We do a lot of audio ads.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: And there are two types of audio ads that we get that we produce.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: One that requires a lot of sound effects, where there's a lot of immersion in the sound experience.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: And for that, we work with um we work with people.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: A music producer, a sound producer, it's actually a really good person to do all of these.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: But there's a lot of audio ads today that just require a very straightforward blending of getting a soundtrack without any effects or anything.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: You can automate that part.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: So you get the production of the of the voiceover ready, and then you blend it with an automated piece, and then you speed up the production for the end buyer.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna be seeing those cases.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the approach that we're taking at the Bonus Studio today, uh, blending it.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: I see that's what a lot of companies are gonna be doing over the next 24 months, because still, when you go deep into the technology, it requires a lot of personal parameters or specific parameters to make something work very well.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: So if you want, in the case of voiceovers, if you wanted to have 10 different accents in Brazil, because you're advertising in audio in Brazil in a lot of the regions that they market, you would have to build a very complex model for each individual accent that you're gonna be creating.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: And then that parametrization can be very expensive versus just getting the voice actor and do it in the specific accent.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you're looking for something very generic, and we say it on TikTok, right?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh like the voiceover TikTok, I think we all have it on our on our on our on our ears already, and we're getting used to that voiceover, that's perfectly fine.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we're gonna be seeing a lot of blending, a lot of new use cases.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: I imagine TikTok with human powered by humans.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: It wouldn't be the same.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like the speed in which you create a video would be very slow.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: So for some aspects, it will speed up and open new industries that didn't exist before.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: In some others, there will be a lot of blending, and that's my opinion over the next 18, 24 months, a lot of blending.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: What happens after that?
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: We're still figuring it out as we go by.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think there are more questions than answers.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um but you cannot remove the fact that a lot of the industry do face a threat.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever adjective you want to use, there's a threat to the industry.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I would be, yeah, if I were in the industry, I would be spending a couple of hours here and there reading and learning and informing myself so that in my as a as an individual creator, learn how can how can I actually blend it in my own, or what can I do uh to actually be competitive 24 or 36 months down the line.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: If you're a business working in this, how can you blend it or figure it out how you build a business out of this in the next 36 months?
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're creating it, well, you're just creating, you're having fun.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's a little bit of here and there.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's not that organized, but that's a little a bit of what is on my head.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we'll leave it with that very human thing that is in your head.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so Santiago, very nice to uh to talk with you today.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, really enjoyed it.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: I know our audience will too.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: Likewise, Paul, thank you so much for your time.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, to the audience, thank you for listening.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: Humanity Working is produced and edited for Billion Minds by Matt Neal.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: Our interviewer is Paul Slater.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: Music is by Dolo Records.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: If you like this podcast, please subscribe, like, and recommend us to others.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: It helps us reach more people.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to learn more about how Billion Minds gets companies ready for the future of work by building adaptable, resilient employees, look for them on LinkedIn or visit their website at billionminds.com.