Latest / The Doodle Pro®: Positive Dog Training for Calm Doodles / Why Does My Goldendoodle Bark at Me? Demand Barking Explained (Kristi Benson)

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Why Does My Goldendoodle Bark at Me? Demand Barking Explained (Kristi Benson) · The Doodle Pro®: Positive Dog Training for Calm Doodles

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Karin Gearhart and oh this session is a fun one.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Today, Christy Benson's unpacking what your doodle's demand barking is really telling you.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I promise her reframe is going to make you laugh and change how you hear every single bark.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's jump in.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: If many of us who have problems with our dogs doing this demand barking, if we meet our dogs' needs in a much more clear way and in a much more active way, I think a lot of the demand barking goes away on its own because our dogs are tired.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: They have they're satisfied with their lives.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad to be here.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you're going to see if you're watching on video, I have a little guest pop with me on my lap.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: And this is Rocket.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: And Rocket experience is a little separation anxiety.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: So if I was going to be recording without Rocket on my lap, we'd be having some barking.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that actually brings me to my first question for you.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Not all barking is demand barking.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: What would you categorize the different types of barking?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then let's go into how do we tell which is which?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great question because it actually has a really big sort of say in how we treat the barking or how we help the dog guardians who are we're working with.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think that the two big classes of barking that it's really important to understand are some dogs are barking when they're feeling happy.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: So they're barking about happy things.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: And some dogs are barking when they're feeling upset.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: Those are pretty different sort of motivational states for our dogs.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: If they're feeling upset, our overriding urge and need as dog trainers and as dog guardians is to help the dog feel better.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: And in a lot of cases, if your dog is barking because they're upset, if we help our dogs feel better, the barking kind of goes away on its own, because it's more a symptom of them being upset.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: But the the barking that I deal with in this course is dogs who are barking when they're not upset.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a couple of different ways that dogs bark when they're not upset.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: They can bark when they're playing.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have a dog who enjoys playing with other dogs, they might be ripping around the yard or ripping around the dog park and they might be barking.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just an expression of doggy joy.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: I would be pretty content just to let my dogs bark when they play.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's part of play.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Some dogs will also do a bit of anticipation barking.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: So if it's just a car ride time, it's almost like their happiness overflows and it comes out as a bark when they're really happy or right before one of my dogs barks quite a bit right before supper or any meal.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: If she knows a meal is coming, she just gets her vocal.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you have a dog that barks even when she already or he already has the dog in the of the ball in their mouth.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you there isn't, yeah, yeah.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a dog who can bark around a ball.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: I find that hilarious though.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I almost wouldn't train that out.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's maybe it it's more annoying than you'd imagine.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: But when someone has told me that I've had clients or I've had colleagues who have have dogs who can bark around a ball in their mouth, I just find that it's really funny.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my yes.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: But that ties in with the excited anticipation sometimes while playing a game of fetch, but sometimes it could be, I want you to throw the ball, you're taking too long, kind of bark.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: So and this is what we'll spend the most of our time speaking about is that some dogs have learned, but it's like they've been trained by us accidentally or by their environment, that barking gets them what they want.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: So if they have learned to do a bark behavior on purpose to get what they want, then that is something that can be extremely persistent.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: It can be very hard to handle as a dog guardian.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's something that can really wear down on our nerves.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: Those dogs are typically not upset.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: So we're talking about a dog who's just learned through the same way that you and I would learn to play a game or to play an instrument.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: They've learned to bark in those contexts.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if I'm at home as a pet parent with my doodle and my dog's barking, what signs on their body, or how can I tell?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Is this an upset bark, which is a different track than what we're talking about today, versus what people call demand barking?
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I like sharing, and I'm sure you have probably shared with your audience, quite a few different resources on dog body language.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's really great to look at good visual resources when we're trying to help dog guardians understand if their dogs are upset or not.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I think if we look at our dogs, their whole body, so not just one thing.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: For example, if their ears are looking close to their body down and back, is their back a little bit arched?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Is their tail tucked up between their legs?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Is their whole body looking a little bit more alarmed, or are they looking more loose and floppy and happy and open-mouthed or excited with their ears up and forward?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: I would say take a peek at the whole body and see if there's a lot more check marks going towards the upset end of things, or if there's more check marks going towards the floppy and happy, or excited and anticipatory.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we've defined it, we've confirmed this pop, this doodle is demand barking.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: You've actually said that this phrase is kind of a misnomer, even though we use it because and we all understand what we're talking about.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: But what do we need to understand instead?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the phrase demand rankles on a lot of dog professionals because it makes it seem like our dogs are being unreasonable.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: When in fact, it's almost always that we have accidentally not any, it's not like humans are doing anything wrong, but we've accidentally trained our dogs to do this.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: So imagine if you went to your job and someone said, Oh, look at you, demand working.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, No, I'm just working, like I just putting in an honest day, like, and then I get my paycheck.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like that, I'm not demand working, or in any situation, if you walk to the fridge to get yourself a nice can of pop, and then someone's like, Look at you, demand walking.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: No, I've just I've learned that if I do the work of going to the fridge, I can reinforce myself with this treat that I want.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: So demand barking because we have accidentally trained our dogs to do it, is the same thing.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: The dog has learned, and in most cases, we have literally trained them in very much the same way that we would train a dog to sit or do a nice down state or stand to be groomed.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: We've trained them to bark, but then we get all like huffy at it, even though we haven't ourselves trained them to do it.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Dogs have limited modes of communication that get a response out of us people.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And we've brought them into our homes, and now we've got these companion pups that we expect to just be quiet and be ready to play when we are, but otherwise don't disturb.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm working from home, etc.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, first off, our expectations of them can be unreasonable, that they just need to be quiet all the time.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: But second, you're saying they're just communicating in a way they know that's work.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think the expectation question is really big.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if many of us who have problems with our dogs doing this demand barking, if we meet our dogs' needs in a much more clear way and in a much more active way, I think a lot of the demand barking goes away on its own because our dogs are tired.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: They have they're satisfied with their lives.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think people get dogs, especially some doodles can be very active, surprisingly active.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that that you get a dog with this idea that it will be something that, like you said, will fit in very neatly without a lot of extra effort.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: But realistically, I think we need to almost switch that equation completely.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: We need to fit into our dog's lives.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: We need to help our lives meet our dogs' needs.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll talk about that in the second half of how we treat a like what you're describing is getting ahead of before they're even needing to ask sometime, right?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that framing.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Getting ahead of absolutely.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: But when we're talking back to my question about the misnomer, I talk a lot with my students about mindset matters and how we're looking at what the behavior is with our dog.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I agree, when you hear demand barking, I almost picture like the stereotypical toddler throwing a fit in the grocery store for some candy, right?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Gimme.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's the mindset I think we have when we're hearing this bark for food, pet being let out.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: But what how else are they supposed to ask?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: What other tool have we given them to be able to unlock that door in order to be able to get that pet, etc.?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one of the things that I love about my dog training colleagues is they just so naturally give their dogs the behaviors and the openness, the openness in their lives to ask in ways that the humans find a lot easier, a lot less destructive on the eardrums.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, you just but if I go and I spend time with a dog trainer, just seeing their dogs who have can come and do a gentle prod or come and do a sit, or like they've just given their dogs a lot more ways to communicate their needs, and they also meet their dogs' needs in much more actively than I think people imagine.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: So someone's like, But you're you're a dog trainer.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: You're dog, of course your dogs are gonna be well behaved.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I'm a dog trainer, so I pretty actively meet my dogs' needs by how I've set up my house and how I've got their lives.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yes.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like this pup on my lap right now would have a hard time, despite me being a dog trainer, if I left him downstairs.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, you gotta be on my lap.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we're gonna do in the short term so that you're comfortable.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: I teach a default sit.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Puppy culture calls it manding, but that to me is a pleasing way for my dog to say, please.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I have to be paying attention.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's a quiet way for him to be asking something.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll go play fetch, and sometimes a neighborhood kid or somebody will want to toss the ball to my dog too, and he'll go into a sit and they don't know that means please, and they'll wait and they'll wait, and you know he doesn't look ready enough for them to throw the ball, and then he throws a bark there, and then they throw it.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, excellent.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for the reinforcement, kiddo.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, but if the dog tried barking once, like in that scenario, it worked, and now it has a job.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, how does a loving doodle parent accidentally become the employer here without ever noticing?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: The employer.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love it.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of it is about noticing.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, I have a dog door, but sometimes it's closed.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: If our dogs need to go out, sometimes our dogs need to go out in the middle of the night, need they need to go to the bathroom, and we might have the dog door closed for some reason.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we're asleep.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: So for them to get us up enough to open the door, there has to be some sound or some movement or some either jumping up on the bed or barking, which will then make us notice.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like you say.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: So then I will walk to the dog door and open it.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like pretty much dictionary perfect positive reinforcement training.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: The dog does a behavior and then we give them what they want, which trains them, which lets them know, oh, hey, this is how I need to behave in order to get something that I want.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: With demand barking, there's often this extra component of I don't feel like getting up right now.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel like opening the dog door.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel like giving my dog a treat or throwing the ball as a big one for dogs who love ball.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: So then the dog will bark a little bit more, which is again a very natural textbook case of how how to train dog.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: You want a bigger, better bark, wait for a little bit.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then when the dog does do the behavior with more persistence and more volume, then you go and give them the treat.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you can end up training in a very loud, very long-term bark just by noticing and then finally giving them what they are asking for.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: If I go to wake my teen sons, I might have started with a soft knock and then a louder knock because that soft knock doesn't work, right?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now I just go and knock hard to start.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the same can be with our dogs, that they're gonna bark with some gusto because that's what got you up and got you to open the door.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: So say you're thinking to train a dog to do a nice down stay.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: You don't even start with a down, you start with a sit, and then you get the dog into a down and they get a treat right away.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Over time, you build up to this behavior just in the exact position you want.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: Say you want like a particular Sphinx down or something, and then you add on duration slowly with a treat.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's this is exactly the same process, it's just being trained, the dog's being trained to do something that we don't want.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: So actually pat yourself on the back if you have a proficient demand barker, because you've been an excellent trainer here.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Excellent trainer.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: You have followed reinforcement strategies.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people are just like, oh, I wish my dog were smarter.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Your dog is actually pretty smart.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Your dog has learned this behavior and probably with fewer trials than it would take to do a downstair.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you bring up the intelligence piece, the definition of a doodle is a dog mixed with a poodle.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so we've got that genetic piece, these are working dogs.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Plus, we're bringing in some of these companion breeds that just like this pup, want to be with you.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're I see the most demand barking I see with the doodles I work with are for pets and make room on the sofa next to you.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: I want to cuddle.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the most often second would be like really high drivey.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I want to keep playing fetch.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're not going fast enough for me.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: So when you work with dogs that want more pets and are picking up on things quickly, what would you say to them?
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: So one of the things I do in my course is I divide it into a couple of sections.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: And one is can you give the dog what they want?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, are they demand barking for something that you give them anyway?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: For example, door opening services.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a yard and you let your dog into the yard and they demand bark for it, you give them that reinforcement anyways.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that that's we wanted them to go out to go to the mouth.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just picking a quieter way for them to notify us.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then I also have a section where I talk about if your dog is asking for things that you can't or won't give them.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a bit of a different approach there, I think.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now with padding, if you're happy to pat your dog as often as they need it or as often as they want it, then you can simply get your dog to do a different sort of request behavior.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: One of my dogs, Archer, likes to have his head patted.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And without doing this on purpose, I'm a lazy trainer too.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: He trained me and to he comes and he puts his head on my lap, and his head is like the size of a it's he's enormous.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: He's an enormous dog.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So he comes, and it's not like you could ignore that.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very cute.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I read and pat him every time he puts his head on my lap.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: So he would never have to even go to barking, right?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: The nuisance-ish behavior that I accidentally taught my doodle at around 10:30 at night is usually when I go to bed and he sleeps on the foot of my bed.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's 10:30 because he starts doing a little dance, and I'm like ignoring it.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to get a little bit more work done before I head to bed or scroll Instagram for a minute.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not ready yet.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then he starts tugging on the throw blanket that I didn't even realize I always have draped over me.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I like my throw blanket.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want it to get full and torn.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, all right, all right, we'll go to bed.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: I could train him to do something else.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: He's trying to do something polite with his little dance, and he does a little huff.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so I could give him a replacement behavior, but as we're talking about what to do to fix it, you're right.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: What is the thing instead?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: So for your pup for the pets, it's identifying, okay, this is lovely to me, the head on my lap.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: To me, yeah, it doesn't bother me the little pull on my blanket.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: I probably need to be annoyed a little bit to get up and go to bed.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: I could probably work for a couple more hours.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: So he's helping me out.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you'd probably pick the tug on the blanket rather than continuous to high-pitch barking.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: The thing about barking is that it really works for us humans, which is why if dogs are being creative and they try out three to four different things, the barking is the one that will very consistently work.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: So they learned that it works because we find it very aggravating typically.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: And with people working from home and can't have that on their Zoom call, and parents with young children that'll disrupt their sleeping child, they will jump up to interrupt it.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: And wow, it really works.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going into what we do about it.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to bust some myths that people might have heard to try.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: It might be your in-laws, it might be your neighbor, it might be your friendly neighborhood trainer, and some of the ones that I hear a lot.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And again, if you've tried any of these, our Doodle Pro Nation is no blame, no shame.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: We do the best with what we know, and you're here, and we're gonna help you know some more.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've tried these, Christy and I aren't blaming you for it.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've even tried some of these tools before I became a dog trainer.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: So absolutely no, no shame.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: There are ways that if you go to the pet store in many communities, you can find tools to stop dogs from barking.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And these tools typically rely on scaring the dog or actually hurting the dog to the point where then they stop barking.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it might include things like ultrasonic or like things that dogs can hear but humans can't.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: So a deterrent that will listen for dog barking and then make this sound.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's always the option of buying different colors that spray like a smell like citronella that the dog doesn't like.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Or there are even more sort of ferocious options where the dog can wear a collar that will deliver an electric shock if they bark.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: In some cases, these tools will work and they work by scaring or hurting the dog, which is something that I'm pretty sure the listeners to your program and anyone who has a dog that they pop up in bed with every night at 10:30, we don't want to hurt or scare our dogs.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: The marketing around a lot of these things you can go in and buy, the marketing makes it seem like it's very gentle, very pro-dog, but it's not.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: The learning underneath it is we're gonna hurt or scare this animal into stopping their behavior.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: And even if it works, there is a real risk that the dogs will become fearful.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes they'll become fearful of things in general, sometimes they'll become fearful of something very specific.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: So if they typically say bark before you give them supper, and then you start using a tool that scares them, they might become scared of eating their own supper.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: For example, it and then all of a sudden you had a problem which is pretty easy to fix, but it's an aggravating problem, but it's relatively easy to fix.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now you've replaced it with a problem that's much harder to fix and that impacts your dog's quality of life in really important ways.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: Or even you it can become, we can get into the this is worrisome enough behavior, worrisome enough fear that the dog can become dangerous.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Dogs who are scared are dogs who might bite.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I think we really want to take a step back and look at these tools and go, okay, it looks like it might be easy.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: It might be$39.95 and the the marketing looks great, but we really have to say, is this okay for dogs?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Are we okay treating our dogs like this?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And are we okay with the potential side effects?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: And for me in my practice, and I know for you in your practice, that's just not an acceptable risk.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not something I want to do to my dogs.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's not on the menu for me, but it's also not necessary.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: There's a kinder, more evidence-based way that we can do it and have a quieter household with our pup without harming or scaring them.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: In Jean Donaldson's Academy for Dog Trainers, was you're an instructor in it.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so correct me if I'm remembering this lesson wrong from years ago studying it, but she was talking about sometimes the fallout that people don't picture a dog who I think was wearing a citronella collar.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it sprays something that's kind of distasteful to a dog.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: But people pick that over a shot collar or a bar collar, sometimes thinking that it's kinder.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the dog would often bark looking out the window and then would get sprayed.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it resulted in the dog being fearful of the curtains.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because every time it was going by the window and would bark, it didn't associate that the barking was bad.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was that the curtains were bad.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you're using a what a spray bottle to spray at your dog or a can of coins or any of these collars, when somebody walks in the door and you don't want them barking at them, or the mailman goes by, it can result in a dog that's scared of the mailman.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: They're scared of guests entering the house.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, absolutely.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: It creates fear in the dog trainer's heart.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: If you're like, here's a friendly dog who happens to say they like the mailman enough that they bark because they want the mailman to they find it enjoyable, maybe, or guests come over and they get pats and they just like guests.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now we might be creating a dog who's fearful of guests.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's replacing, like you said, an easy problem with something that is, yeah, it's so worrisome.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I know training sometimes seems like it's a little bit, oh God, now I need more treats.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, I have to do these four steps to get to the end point.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And training with fear is much quicker.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: So dogs, like all mammals, learn very quickly if they're scared, right?
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: So, but the problem is that so, say we've created this fear, it's much, much slower to undo a fear.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: It is to train a new behavior.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it might take a few repetitions and some good strategy to train a dog to sit instead of barking at the bear.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: But to take a dog who's scared of something and to undo it, it's a tough colossal effort.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: It can really be a colossal effort.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we definitely don't want to create that.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: The other advice that people are often given that is not using fear or pain, thank goodness, is just ignore it.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: You trained it into them, so it worked, and just ignore it and they'll stop barking.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: I see where they're going and there's an extinction piece, but can you go into why that's not your go-to?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: I would say it's if if you're very capable at noticing your dog and your dog is only has only tried barking once or twice, like a very small number of times, then it you could probably ignore it and get away with it.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: But if your dog has, like you said, if your dog has been doing this barking thing for long enough where you're like hiring a dog trainer or finding courses online, the behavior is probably entrenched enough at this point, then that trying to use the ignore option, which, like you said, the extinction option will almost certainly be so frustrating for the dog.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't mind using a bit of frustration, but that is a continuum, right?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want, I don't want my dogs to be so frustrated that it almost becomes a terrible mindset for them.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: And also it will be very annoying for you.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: So even if you're like, no, I'm comfortable with my dog getting frustrated, you yourself will probably be so annoyed by how hard they'll try barking, because they will almost certainly try barking louder, longer, harder to see if it's gonna finally work that you will break.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then just like you knocking on your children's doors to wake them up, they will immediately go to the louder, longer, harder option just to get what they want next time.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard on the dog and it's hard on the humans.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: So other options are typically a better bed.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then going louder and more high-pitched or more frequent isn't a battle of wills.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't your dog not respecting you or being disobedient.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Just barking worked, and then what the heck?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's not working.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Am I supposed to do it more?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: What unlocks this?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: It always I always got paid for it.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I'll do it better and more about you taught me this.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that again is a mindset where we it's the scientific term of for our listeners of extinction burst that there's it gets bigger before it goes away.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: And for most of us, it's painful.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's so painful.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very natural progression of behavior, it's a very predictable progression of normal behavior.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about the kinder and more efficient and effective way to reduce demand barking.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: We'll use that term because it's the common one, and everybody understands what we're talking about.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: But underneath the hood, we understand more that it's they're doing what worked, right?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you started with getting ahead of it.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: What can we give the dog more of what they want, right?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: And to do in kind of an uh enrichment audit.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love that for enrichment audit.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's hard for us as humans because we tend to be very busy.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: You yourself mentioned maybe I can stay up for an extra X minutes just to get something done.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Most dogs tend to be very on the opposite end.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have enough exercise and they don't have enough enrichment.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: So making a big effort, seeing demand barking as a little bit of a symptom of a dog who needs more, just needs more, period.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: So upping their enrichment, can they, instead of eating their food out of a bowl, can we give them food toys?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Can we scatter their food?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Can they hunt for their food, making them work a little bit for their food, which for some people might seem a little bit rude.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Why can't we just give them things?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: We can give them lots of things, but we can also give them wonderful experiences.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And dogs, when given a choice, will pick to hunt for their food rather than eat it out of a bowl.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I hunt and put it into a cong or scatter it in the yard or hide it around your house.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to pause there so everybody catches what Christy just said.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because so true.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can use a puzzle feeder and have a if you have a labradoodle that's really just wants to scarf and not take a breath, it might not be the case with them.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: They might want both, but you can have a bowl of food easy and ready and a puzzle feeder, and they pick the challenge.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: They want to have interesting enrichment in their lives.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: They do, they pick the challenge, absolutely.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: It gives them something on top of the food, so they get the food and the fun experience.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's it's true and it's it's mind-blowing that dogs would do this, but it makes a ton of sense, I think, when you consider their evolutionary history and how little they have to do compared with us.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: They don't have Instagram reels to keep them busy, right?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're very much constrained to the environment that we've put them in.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, definitely a lot more enrichment using food and training and different classes if you want to take them.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Walks are very enriching, smells you can do it and beyond even just activities that you as a guardian would have to.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna take my dog to the dog park or a dog training class, something like that.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of passive types of enrichment that you can do.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: So and a lot of it is actually really cheap.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: You can go through your recycling bin before you take it out and figure out ways to make use of it in ways that your dog will find will help tire out their brain, which is what enrichment does, is like exercise for the brain.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we're getting ahead of meeting some of those needs before they even have to be asking for it.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: But then our next key is teaching a different way to ask.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk me through?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: They call that the replacement behavior.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk me through that and why you often pick a downstay?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: I like picking what the dog already knows.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, because I'm lazy.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And training a whole new behavior takes effort.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: But that said, training is a wonderful enrichment for your dog.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: So if you happen to like training, take a training class, train your dog to do a jillion things.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's wonderful.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's great for your dog.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I find in a situation where someone has come to me and is my dog is driving me, my ears are just bleeding from how much my dog is barking.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: I want to get on that stat.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I like taking a behavior that the dog already knows, which is often sit, could be down, anything.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Some dogs know how to do a nose touch, which a lot of people find easy to it's very quick to train.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: But even, for example, my dog Archer, who puts his head on my lap, that I could say that's gonna be his request behavior for anything that I'm gonna give him.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: So something that the dog is already good at.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: So often you just capture something that's already offered or that you've already trained.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the new key that unlocks what those can be.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: So if it works, I think sit is just one of the easiest ones because almost everyone, their dog knows how to sit, right?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's useful to say, okay, let's rev this sit up a bit.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: So let's train it in a bunch of different contexts.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: Let's train it in every room.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do 10 revs in every room with treats.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Sit, dog sits, give a treat.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: Let's do it in the kitchen, let's do it middle of the walk, let's do it in the yard to get the dog just so that the muscle of sitting, when you say sit, has become very well developed.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: And at that point, then you can start to say, okay, my dog is good at sit.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: He's done it 150 times in the last week for a treat in a bunch of different situations.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see if we can replace the barking with the sit.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: So we'd start say the dog is barking to get up on the couch.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: I would say, ask your dog to sit.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: As soon as they sit, invite them up on the couch.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: So make it very clear that the reinforcement for sitting is getting up on the couch.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't matter if the dog barks or doesn't at this point.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Soon enough, we'll say, let's get the barking out of the picture.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: But right now we just want the dog to start getting the sense of, oh, the way I get onto the couch is if I come and take a sit.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: How do you tackle the creating the pattern of bark, sit now on the couch?
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: How do you tackle that pattern that we might have trained?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's good trainers accidentally.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: That comes up, I think, a little bit.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's as frequent as it might seem.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd say give yourself 20 or 30 reps of the dog coming up, barking, sitting, and then getting on the couch before you really start to say, Oh, he's doing both.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: Give the chance for that other behavior to because dogs are very wise at how they spend their behavioral dollar, right?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: They're not going to behavior that doesn't get them what they want.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: So as they learn it's sitting that that the owner wants, that my mom wants to get on the couch, the barking may just decrease all by itself.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that I would give that a little bit of a chance to mature as a behavior before I would dive in there.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: But then I would start to say, make it a new rule of if the dog barks and then sits, then there's no couch access.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it's I would say reinforcement is only available if the dog is quiet.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I think your point of 20 to 30 reps is so many more than people would think.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you're right, dogs like to be efficient.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: They're not going to waste offering the bark if it was to sit that worked.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: So pay them more time.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, hopefully.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's for when it's something that we are okay with that can be a yes, when we're able to open the door, when the couch is available to come up for snuggles.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: What about when the answer is no?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I so when the dogs are asking for something that they're they just can't have, like say they've already had all of their calories per day and they're barking for a treat.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: This is a different scenario.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a time when I would, I know we've already touched on this, but I would say it's really important now to go to take a step back and say, let's ask again, is this dog getting their needs met?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, is this dog getting enough to do during the day?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Does this dog have and it's getting enough exercise?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Enough.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: If the dog has a big need for companionship and sort of physical affection and they're not getting any, can we take a step back and look at that first?
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: But that said, even dogs who get all of their needs met and have very like high quality doggy lives can still demand bark.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: So if that's the case, then yeah, we can do we can train a replacement behavior that's quiet instead of barking.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: So say, yeah, I'm gonna have to keep some treats at the table or by my office, but I'm gonna have the dog do a downstay instead of barking.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: And they're still getting something out of it.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: They're getting a treat, but they're getting a small treat after, say, 30 seconds of a downstair, or after two minutes or three minutes of a downstair.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that that can really help to change the sort of the channel in the dog's behavior.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: So they come in hot, but then they get into a little bit of a different mode of oh, we're doing a downstair training now.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna be rolling around and I still get a treat.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: I still get to do something, I'm still being active, but it's not this barking behavior.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we can train a new behavior or use a new behavior, longer term behavior.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think tends to be a bit more useful.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to do something very quick, like a nose target, and then the dog is done, and then they're just like, I guess I'll be barking again.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: We just do a new pattern, but barking's still the game, right?
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other thing that you can also use is negative punishment.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you can use timeouts, which are very effective for dogs who are demand barking.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Can you explain what a 30-second timeout is and how that's different from the spray bottles and shake cans that we talked about earlier?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: So the spray bottles and shake cans that we're talking about, which in dog training lingo is known as positive punishment, which sounds like a good thing, but it's not.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Positive just means adding.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: So you're if the dog does a behavior like barking and you add a shake can or a spray from a collar or an electric shock or any kind of a punishment that that you're adding to the dog's sensory environment, it makes the behavior go away if it works because the dog doesn't like that.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: If they find it scary, they find it uncomfortable, they find it intimidating.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Negative punishment takes away something good.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: So the dog is like, I like being around my people.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: So for I think a reasonable example of negative punishment, if a dog barks when they want to get up on the couch, they likely want to get up on the couch with you.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you get up and leave, that's negative punishment.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that will, if the dog stops barking, they're like, hey, wait, I wanted you to stay, but you get up and leave, then the dog will learn to change their behavior, they'll bark less because they want to keep you.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: So if you remove the dog from something that they like, which is typically in negative punishment, we're talking about social contact with other humans.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: So if you remove the humans for 30 seconds, it's a very powerful sort of consequence for dogs, and they will typically learn to modify their behavior.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: And without us using pain or instilling fear.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: No, a big caveat for that is if your dog finds being alone scary, then that changes this from being a okay thing to do to dogs to something which dog trainers on our side of the fence would not agree with.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't want to scare our dogs.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: It might work to stop barking, but that doesn't mean that it's okay.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, agreed.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: So takeaway if somebody has a doodle that's been doing this for three years.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then this is what's worked, and this is how they get the door done, and this is how they get their pet.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: What advice would you give?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: Just is four sessions gonna cut it.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: I find doodles very bright to train.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't trained doodles of doodles, but so I would say I would say training a replacement behavior for something like getting up on the couch or padding would be very easy.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd probably start with a sit.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think you could get relief from that kind of behavior relatively quickly.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I would also say a very easy corollary is going to be giving that dog a lot more of stuff that they like just in general.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: So starting to have Kongs around, starting to have toys that the dog likes to it's if I hear a dog who barks a lot to get something, to me, I'm already thinking of a dog who's quite active.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: So if you have a dog who's quite active, meeting their needs can really help.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then also it can just be a bit of a break.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you see the dog starting to come towards you and you're like, oh no, I know this is gonna be a barky time, just let's play ball for five minutes down the hallway, or let's hear have have your supper calling right now, and so we can preempt it.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: And for a dog whose needs are not being met, barking can be self-reinforcing, where it is something that can be like they can get a little entertainment or something out of it if the rest of their life is not meeting their needs, right?
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think sort of the textbook case of that is like the backyard barker.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: If a dog is just out in the backyard without other dogs, without people, and they're just bored, then that dog doesn't need barking remediation.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: That dog needs more of doggy joy in their lives for sure.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Which is all of our goal.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: If a doodle parent does exactly one thing after this session, what would you recommend they do?
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: Taking a peek at your dog and recognizing that they're using their behavior as a tool to get what they want.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it's cool because we can see them using their brains to be like, how do I work my environment and my my family?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: Not in a negative way, just in a way of here's a mammal making their way through their world.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: We can see them learning and using their behavior, which is cool.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: But also we can see what do our dogs really want.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: My dog, all of my dogs right now are currently sleeping by themselves on their own beds.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: They would probably scratch at a door or bark to get in to have their own bed.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: I know that being on lulling around on a human bed gives my dogs joy.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I can see that just by looking at them and seeing how they're working their environment.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I think taking a step back and watching them do their doggy thing is really useful.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: And for people who are ready to tackle this, you've got a wonderful course to help them do so.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell them a little bit about that and where they can find it?
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so you can find all of my courses on my website, which is christybenson.com.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I do have a barking course.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's called Peace and Quiet.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's aspirational with barking dogs.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: So it's an online course, it's relatively quick to get through.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: It has a lot of graphics and some videos to help you train your behavior.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: I've really aimed it at working with people where they're at.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: So if you need help training your dog to sit, there's instructions on how to get any dog to sit down.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then also, I have a lot of ways of helping dog parents figure out how to give their dogs enrichment and give their dogs exercise without adding to our already very full plates as humans.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'd welcome any of your audience to come and join up.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's a few free lessons to see if it suits their sort of learning methods.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for having me.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Christy, it sounds like your dog and this dog are ready for us to wrap up.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Demand working.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'll never say it any other way again.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Christy, for bringing that to Doodle Pronation.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: Scratch behind the ears for your doodle.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: From me.