Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / "Ozzy @ 75"/Daniel Bukszpan [Episode 151]

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"Ozzy @ 75"/Daniel Bukszpan [Episode 151] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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We're totally booked. I mean, I'll leave you do you're reading Little Hands,
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It's time to run and roll row. We are totally booked. Welcome
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to Booked on Rock. This is the podcast for those about to read and
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rock. Find the podcast at booked on rock dot com. There you'll find
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exclusive video segments from episodes, blogs, links to all the social media sites,
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the latest rock book releases, and links to all the listening platforms.
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You can find every episode of Booked on Rock there, along with links to
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your favorite listening platforms. Daniel Buckspan is this episode's guest. The book is
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called Ozzy at seventy Five. Daniel is the author of this book, which
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features seventy five career accomplishments and life events of Ozzy Osbourne. It comes in
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a slipcase hardcover format, photos from both on and off stage, images of
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memory bilia, including gig posters, seven inch picture sleeves, ticket stubs and
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more. It also includes a gatefold Ozzy timeline with artwork depicting Azzi through the
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years. Key studio albums are featured. But there's more to this book than
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just the music. Daniel goes deep to reveal the events that helped Chuck the
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course of Ozzie's career, and he's here to talk about some of those albums
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and events. To hear a playlist of Ozzy Osbourne, head over to the
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show notes page. Daniel, thanks so much for being on the podcasts.
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Great to meet you, very happy to be here. Thank you for having
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me. Right off the bat, no pun intended. There wasn't that was
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terrible? Why wasn't that corny? That was corny? It was very pleasure.
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There was an interesting comment included in this book's introduction. It came from
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Glenn Hughes, the great singer who sang from Black Sabbath in nineteen eighty six,
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and he said, it wasn't so hard to sing the Ronnie James Dio
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era Sabbath, but it was incredibly difficult to sing the Ozzy era Sabbath.
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And he's not referring to hitting the notes or anything like that. He's referring
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to the fact that Ozzie had a vocal style. It was unlike anybody else.
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And you write quote Hughes was right then and he's right now. Ozzy
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Osbourne has one of the most distinctive, immediately recognizable voices in rock music.
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Can you talk about when you were thirteen and first heard Ozzie? What was
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it that got you hooked? As you say in the book, Uh,
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well, I didn't really get hooked on on Ozzie like right at that moment,
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Like when I was like twelve thirteen, I was aware of him more
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as kind of like a media personality. Uh you know, like I knew
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all this, you know stuff about him, you know, doing terrible things
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too, you know, flying life forms and that sort of thing. And
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it almost made the fact that he was a musician like almost kind of secondary
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in a way. It was kind of like, oh, wow, he
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plays music too. Wow. And it I mean, in some ways it
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kind of obscured you know a lot of what he does. But you know,
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once I heard Black Sabbath was it. It was over the thing that
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that Glenn Hughes said I think is really accurate because you know, because you
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know, you have all these people out there who want to sing like Dio,
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You have all these people out there who want to sing like Rob Halford,
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you have all these people out there who want to sing like Bruce Dickinson.
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Nobody can sing like Ozzy Osborne. And it's not a question of like
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that it's too difficult or anything like that, but it's so distinct you will
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just immediately sound like you're copying him. And I've I've heard like a couple
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of bands like in the kind of more stoner rock genre where this, you
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know, the singer is just they're just copying him and it doesn't work.
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It just kind of I think it doesn't the big disservice, but you know,
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they just they've just that's that's where they're going with it. So nobody
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sounds like Nick Dagger. You know, there are a lot of musicians like
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that, Bob Dylan, you know, whether you like him or not,
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it's like that's that's a distinct thing that he does, and what Ozzie does
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is a very distinct thing, uh you know. And I think like the
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more training you get and like the more schooling you have, uh you know,
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the more technique you have, you know, then you start to move
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away from those kinds of kinds of like very unique types of styles, you
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know. I mean, I'm I'm a huge Dio fan and uh, you
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know, it's it's a little embarrassing almost like what a simping fanboy I am
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for him. You know. But you know when I when I listened to
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him, what I'm mostly struck by is this technique and just how how well
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he does it. From that point of view, when I listened to Ozzie,
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it's this completely different thing. It's that's not to say he can't sing,
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that's not to say he's not good at it. But nope, no
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one taught him to sing like that. That's just what comes out. You
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know. There's nothing wrong with you know, with you know, taking a
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few voice lessons and trying, you know, And I mean he does,
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like I have seen him do you know some me me mimo move type stuff
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backstage before he starts a concert. But I think he's like cognizant of the
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fact that, like if he were to like really go for schooling, it
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would kind of ruin it. You know. It's like Freddie Mercury is a
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great example. He never wanted to fix his teeth because he was really worried
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that that would change the way his voice soundled Ozzy Osbourne is you know,
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he's kind of similar in the sense of, like, you know, my
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imperfections make me what I am, My flaws make me what I am.
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And to get rid of those things would would take away all the most wonderful
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things about him. Uh and you know, I just I think that would
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ruin it in some ways. What by the way, I think you mentioned
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in the introduction, what was the first album from Sabbath that you heard?
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Was it Volume for Am? I right, Well, it was we Sold
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Our Souls for rock and Roll, which is like the ideal introduction to that
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band. You know, you're not You're not going to do better than you
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know because total broad overview of everything they've done. It's just the first six
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albums though, so there's no rock and roll doctor on it. A song
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I hate that I wish they had never written and that I'm still upset about
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to this day. But you know, I mean it's uh there. You
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know, there are a few things on the record that are you know,
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like the all fourteen minutes of warning, you know, and stuff like that
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that's like maybe that isn't totally necessary, but I remember the first time I
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heard it just being like, my god, this is incredible and I was
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hooked immediately, and to this day I never lost it. And my poor
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family who have to hear me playing their music constantly. We must give them
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sympathy and you know, extend a loving hand to them. But I just
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can't. I can't stop listening. And they're probably like my top three of
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all time. And you know, not a day goes by where I'm like
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today would just somehow be improved if I just put on Black Sabbath just whatever
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is going on today, whether it's like I have to go to a funeral
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or just I'm late for work or whatever, just Black Sabbath will improve this.
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Yeah, yeah, there's nothing like Sabbath. Yeah, the book goes
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into chron it goes in chronological orders. So starting with his childhood, when
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and where did he grow up? And can you talk about the challenges he
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had in school and sadly after school with bullies. Yeah, that I didn't
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know about. That was one of the things I learned writing the book.
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That's really fucked up, and I'm sorry that he had to deal with that,
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you know. And he said in that bit also that it was like
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you couldn't really talk about it back then, Like if you were going through
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stuff like that, you just had to kind of take it because you know,
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there was no Oprah Winfrey show to talk about it or anything like that.
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Just you you had to just sort of put up with it, remain
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silent and take it every day. And you know, you have to imagine
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that had some kind of an effect on him after going through that over and
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over and over again, for better or worse, he would not be the
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guy he is today without it. But again, like I said, for
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better or worse, I certainly would not want to go through something like that,
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even if there was like Ausie money at the end of it. Like
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you know, well, you know, put up with this now eleven year
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old person, and when you're fifty, you know it'll be worth it because
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he'll have all this money. I'm sure you've been very happy to be poor
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and you know, have people not do that to him? Well, this
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was the first time I've found out about it too. But reading your book,
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how did you find out about this? It's sexual abuse. I mean,
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it's it's all out there. He talked about it openly. Yeah,
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I was very sort you know, it was just it was right out there.
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I wasn't looking for it specifically, you know, because I didn't know
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about it, and it was very early on in the research for the book.
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And I remember seeing that I think it's in like the second chapter or
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in the second segment of the book, So you're talking about like page four
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or something like that, And I remember seeing that and just being like,
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oh Jesus, that's horrible. Yeah, he got the last laugh though,
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if you if you want my honest opinion, though, where are those guys
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today? No one noticed? Yeah. Moment number four, John Michael Osborne
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joins the music business. First, what's the story behind Ozzy Zig? And
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two? How does the Polka Talk Blues Band play a part in the story
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of Ozzy? Oh? Well, he had said just that he thought Ozzy
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Zig would just be like a cool name to make up for himself, and
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like he didn't really get into it much more beyond that other than that sounds
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cool. And then he joined this band that would become Black Sabbath with the
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very terrible name of the Polka to blues Band. I would not join such
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a band. I would be like, get to get your ship figured out
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and then then maybe I'll join, you know, but yeah, you're waiting
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for like yeah, you know, well, you know, I mean,
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I'm I'm tempted to. It kind of reminds me of Jeff rob Tull,
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which you know, Tony Iom was in for about five minutes, right,
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isn't that right? And just it makes me think of white flutes, yeah,
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you know, and stuff like that. It does not make me think
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of Black Sabbath. It makes me think they still had some. They had
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some. King Styron now still and Ozzie Osbourne joins up with guitarist Tony Iomi,
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Bassis, Keezer Butler, and drummer Bill Ward the classic lineup of Black
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Sabbath. And I'm a huge classic Hors fan, but have yet to see
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this movie. Boris Karloff was in nineteen sixty three film. It's titled Black
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Sabbath and that's they titled the song after the movie. And then it's decided
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that hey, this is a perfect band name, much better than Talko Polke
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blues band. They played their first game in August of sixty nine. This
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is during the Manson murders, Woodstock, Vietnam, pretty crazy time. What
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were those early days like for the band and how were they received by critics
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and fans, because it wasn't like they were this overnight success. Well,
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critics hated them. They hated them for years. Tony Iomi said as much,
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and like repeated it. I saw him talking about it once and he
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went, they hated us. The critics hated us. They absolutely hated us.
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They hated us. You know, just he could not say it enough
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to release sum up. Just you know, the hostility. You know,
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if you if you read any reviews from that time, you kind of get
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the sense of, like I think a lot of a lot of critics kind
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of saw them as like, you know, the whole hippie thing was not
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working anymore, that was kind of starting to fade away, and I think
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they saw like Black Sabbath maybe also bands like the Stooges and people like that,
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is like they're coming along to ruin everything. We were going to be
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in the Garden of Eden at Woodstock and everything was going to be wonderful and
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it was going to be utopia. But you know, the reality, like
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you mentioned is you know, that's when the Manson murders were Altamont was just
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a couple of months later. I mean, honestly, I think Black Sabbath
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were kind of almost more representative of what the culture was like at the time
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than I mean when I when I did the Woodstock book, one of the
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people that I interviewed, was like, you know, that festival was a
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lot of fun, but it was kind of like an Irish wake for the
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hippie movement. Like this, this was the funeral. It was a happy
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funeral, but things were changing and you could tell it was starting to be
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over. And I think, you know, just Black Sabbath especially, you
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know, the other bands I mentioned, like the Stooges and MC five and
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bands like that, we're just not having it. And they were really like,
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you know, Summer of Love, we never saw it. Sergeant's Lonely
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Hearts club band and it did not apply to us. We were in abject
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poverty in like this very industrial part of England that you know, were shelled
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by the Nazis, you know, and they just they couldn't relate to you
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know, if you're going to San Francisco or or something like that. You
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know. The self titled debut album released on Friday the thirteenth, February thirteenth,
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nineteen seventy an event number six in the book titled the band Invent a
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Genre and it took just one day including overdubs, to make that album.
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That is insane. That puts them on the map. But the second album
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leads them to the crossover success, and that's event number eight. The band's
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second album is one for the ages. That's the title in the book,
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and that's nineteen seventies Paranoid. And you call the band's third album seventy ones
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Master of Reality, their heaviest ever and the final in a series of records
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that formed the foundation for heavy metal. But you see, the band would
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become creatively restless from this point on. So I'm guessing event number twelve in
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the book is really the main reason why this happens, which is recording Volume
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four is fueled by cocaine. So is it's only drugs that caused the creative
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decline? I don't. I don't want to say that, and I also
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don't want to say it was a creative decline. To me, the debut
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Paranoid and Master of Reality. I regard that as one album in a lot
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of ways because it's just bludgeoning, bludgeoning, bludgeoning. It was just really
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like, you know, there was no delicacy about it at all. But
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I can see how after three albums of that they'd be like, well,
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let you know, let's see what else we can do. No, I
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mean, but the amount of cocaine that they were doing at the time was
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late. I'm reminded of that scene in The Shining where you know, where
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Danny is coming down the snow drift from the window. You know. Yeah,
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if I'm not mistaken, I think it turned out that they spent more
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money on cocaine than they spent recording Volume four. Like Volume four costs like
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sixty thousand dollars to make, and they spent seventy five thousand dollars is on
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cocaine, which is crazy. The fact that they're still alive, I don't
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know if it's possible. And that first sound, by the way, the
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cover, where was that taken that? Oh you know, I don't know
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the name of the town. I know people who have made pilgrimages to go
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there, and you know, they'll take pictures of themselves standing in that spot.
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I know a couple of people who met the woman on the cover.
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The My understanding is like it was just kind of like, oh, hey,
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let's take this picture and that'll be the album cover again. And like
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so many things early on with the band, it was just very spontaneous and
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they kind of just had these ideas, got out of the way and just
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let them happen, and you have all this, you know, timeless music
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with timeless imagery because of it. They said that they didn't really like the
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cover to Paranoid because it was originally supposed to be called War Pigs, and
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it would have made more sense for that to be the cover of an album
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called war Pigs, and they weren't crazy about it. But I can't imagine
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that album with a different cover. I can't imagine Master of Reality with a
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different cover. And again, none of none of these are complicated, what
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you know. It's not like the you know, like led Zeppelin three with
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the pin wheel, you know, where it's like we spare no expense,
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we have to do everything. I think there were storms. I don't know
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those guys, yeah, yeah, right, I don't know. Put a
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lady on it. I don't know who knows. Wasn't it the ROADI wearing
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some silly outfit with a sword like war Pigs or oh, I don't.
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I don't know that sounds right though, I mean literally, I'm pretty sure
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it was like a ten minute decision. And and today, you know,
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fifty four years later, fifty three years later, it's this timeless image that's
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sold. God knows how many copies of this thing. How do you best
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describe Black Sabbath's music. It's heavy metal, but there's jazz in there.
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There's yeah, I mean, I mean, they're certainly like acknowledged as the
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first heavy metal band, and in a lot of ways I agree with that.
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But it was, like you're saying it was jazzy, it was more
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blues. I would say it was more more blues than anything else. Bill
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Ward, just with his like swing, gave it major jazz feeling certainly,
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you know, And I think if it was up to them, they would
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have just improvised forever and not even necessarily been like, Okay, we have
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to have this song verse chorus, verse chorus, guitar solo, verse chorus,
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app You know, there's a lot of you know stuff, certainly on
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the first few records too, that where they're really kind of getting out there.
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You know. I don't know if that's because of drugs or because they
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were you know, exploring musically or whatever. But you know, when you
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when I think of heavy metal, when I think of those words, I
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think of like Iron Maiden, you know, I think, you know,
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really heavy metal as it sounded like in the eighties. There were a lot
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of things being called heavy metal in the seventies, but I feel like it
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wasn't quite there yet. Like Rush was called heavy metal in the nineteen seventies,
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and I'm sorry, that's just not correct in my opinion. Ted Nugent
18:03
was called heavy metal in the seventies. Yeah, I mean there's some overlap,
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certainly, but I think it's more like you know, hard rock,
18:11
maybe sludge, you know, that kind of a thing. It hadn't really
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become as refined as it would become in the eighties Rainbow or you know,
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someone like that, where you know, it's it became more classical, and
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it became more complex, And the first three Black Sabbath albums are not complex
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at all. It's those are just like that's a beating, you're just taking
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a beat. Three of them was that first album where all those songs worked
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out on the road. It was like their regular set that they did at
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clubs every night. You know. The whole reason they were able to get
18:45
the whole thing down in twelve hours because they did it every night. After
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they recorded everything, they did a few overdubs, they double tracked a couple
18:55
of vocals, but that was it, and it had just been this is
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what we do on Thursday at this club, and it was just a part
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of them. It was just what they did every night. The book gets
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into not just Ozzie's music, it's also his personal life. He got married
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to Thelma Riley, had two children, Lewis and Jessica. This is a
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good segue into event number eighteen, Ozzy goes on a drunken poultry rampage.
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Right quote. Thelma Riley Osbourne tried her darndest to turn her husband Ozzie into
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something resembling a typical human husband, but the odds were just not on her
19:30
side. What happened, It was like, okay, we live on this
19:33
whural estate. Have some chickens, raise chickens that you know that'll, you
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know, maybe mellow you out a little bit. That'll be a nice thing
19:42
for you to do. Did not happen. Instead, he just you know,
19:48
went around just shooting them. And he said that there were like bits
19:52
of beak everywhere. I do feel bad for like all of the animals that
19:56
he was horrible towards. And you know the fact that he's famous for it,
20:02
that's not so fantastic in my opinion, although I have to say I
20:06
eat meat, so I can't really get that outraged about it. I enjoy
20:10
a good piece of trick. And just like anybody, I'm not sure that
20:14
he did that though, for you know, to make food, and I
20:18
think he was doing it just be like, you know, crazy man.
20:22
Yeah. Well, and ultimately it just gets to the point where the band
20:25
they gotta do something. Number twenty one in the book Sabbath fires Azzi and
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then moment number twenty two, Sharon Arden meets her future husband. She would
20:33
also play a role in his comeback, as we know. Can you talk
20:36
about how the two meet. It has to do with an envelope that's handed
20:38
to Azzi. This is an interesting story. Oh, I think it was
20:44
Dana Strum from from Slaughter. Isn't that wild? Like existed in nineteen seventy
20:52
nine, but they were like, you know, ten years later a flight
20:56
of the Angels. He came by with an envelope with like five hundred dollars
21:00
in it and said, Sharon Arden, the daughter of your manager is going
21:07
to come by for this a little later today. So he goes, okay,
21:11
opens it up. There's five hundred dollars in there. He blows it
21:12
immediately on coke. He was not really thinking ahead at that point, I
21:17
would say, not really doing the long term. You know, what are
21:21
the ramifications for me? Because she shows up, she is expecting the money
21:27
to be there. It's not. And you know, she completely chewed him
21:32
out, and rightly so. And you know, if if I was waiting
21:36
for five hundred dollars and someone spent it, I would be unhappy, certainly.
21:41
But surprisingly she came back and she was like, if you ever actually
21:45
want to get your ship together, we want to manage you, which to
21:48
me, I mean that she must have just really had an instinct that there
21:53
was something here. I mean, he's been completely written off at that point.
21:59
He had himself off in a lot of ways. He was sure he
22:03
was just gonna, you know, go back to Birmingham and you know,
22:06
go on unemployment and die. That was about it. She put a line
22:11
on the floor, like in his in his own piss, I think when
22:14
she opened the door, yeah exactly. I don't know if if I went
22:18
over to someone's house and they were sitting in their own piss like this is
22:22
a business opportunity, would I just wouldn't see it that way, you know.
22:27
But she recognized something in him and she was able somehow to say there's
22:33
something worthwhile here and we can do something with this, you know, and
22:37
it made all the difference. She and Randy Rhodes were, you know,
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I would say the most responsible for the fact that, you know that he's
22:48
famous to this day under his own name, because I think if those two
22:52
had not been in the picture, he would have been Black Sabbath's old singer.
22:57
That's how he would have been seen. And you know, the music
23:02
completely changed with having Randy Rhodes in it. Lee Kurz, Lake and Bob
23:06
Daisley don't sound like Bill Ward and Geezer Butler, so as this you know,
23:11
complete sea change from what had come before. And also, unlike Patrick
23:18
Me and Sharon Arden, was not ripping him off, So there was that,
23:22
you know, and she wanted, she wanted to really like turn him
23:26
into a you know, a star in his own right. And you know,
23:30
I think I think a lot of people were probably like, well,
23:32
that's that's crazy, that's you know, who would do that. Yeah,
23:36
Oh sure, I think a lot of people, those who are a certain
23:40
age remember that period know this, but a lot of people may be too
23:42
young to know that he really was. Nobody gave him a chance. Nobody,
23:48
no, and they had wanted to do all this. I think Don
23:53
Arden had wanted to like manage both Black Sabbath and Ozzie and have them towards
24:00
together, and Ozzie would be son of Sabbath. Is just just a tragically
24:07
terrible idea. And you know, to her credit, Sharon was like,
24:11
no, we're not We're not going to do that. We're going to actually
24:14
do a not stupid idea, and we're going to actually promote you as a
24:18
real artist in your own right, you know. And I would say between
24:22
her and you know, and again he has said as much. You know,
24:26
Randy Rhodes completely was a game changer for him in terms of you know,
24:32
how the music went and everything that I don't you know. I mean,
24:36
maybe if it hadn't been for them, he may have still gone on
24:38
to you know, other success and that sort of thing. But I mean,
24:44
at least to me, Randy Rhodes was just so phenomenal and such a
24:48
game changer. Uh. And you know, even though like Eddie van Halen
24:52
was already out there and kind of doing similar stuff. In some ways,
24:56
people didn't really associate that kind of sound Ozzie. They certainly didn't associate it
25:02
with Black Sabbath, and it was just this whole new thing entirely. I
25:07
would even say that when Ozzie got on my radar, I didn't even know
25:11
he had been in a band called Black Sabbath before that. To me,
25:15
he was a solo artist, who did you know all this all this other
25:19
shit with doves and bats and that sort of thing. But I but Black
25:23
Sabbath was not. It just wasn't on my radar at the time. I
25:27
want to ask about the dove incident because there's an added story in this book,
25:32
of course, him meeting Randy Rhodes in the book, that's moment number
25:34
twenty three, and he signs with CBS Records. He's got a band now,
25:40
and there's an added story to the chapter on this famous dove incident at
25:44
CBS Records. This is March twenty seventh, nineteen eighty one, And can
25:47
you just talk about what happens on that day because it's always worth hearing again
25:51
for those who've heard it before. It's still a great story. But also
25:53
what did his bassist Rudy Sarzo say about that day because it was something that
25:59
happened after towards what was intended on that day was Sharon was like, Okay,
26:04
we're going to the offices of CBS Records at nine o'clock in the morning,
26:10
and what you're going to do is just you know, meet and greet.
26:12
And what I want you to do is you're going to put a dove
26:15
in each pocket and release them into the room. Is sort of like a
26:18
peace offering. He was already drunk at nine o'clock in the morning, you
26:25
know, and he just like sat on this like some woman's lap and just
26:30
you know, bites the head off a dove, spits it onto the table,
26:33
and then the other dove like gets away and is shitting everywhere, and
26:40
you know, it was a total disaster. You know, you don't know
26:42
who he was. By the way, This woman, this poor woman,
26:45
there's a picture of her, like a stunted look on her face. Yeah,
26:48
I've seen that picture. He looks happy, but her they like sort
26:53
of obscure her face because I think she doesn't want to be remembered as part
26:57
of that moment. You know, don't think she wants to take any responsibility
27:02
for it. Rudy Sarzo said that like he saw Ozzie like later in the
27:06
day and he's they're standing I don't know where they were, but like they're
27:11
standing there talking to each other, and he sees something moving in Ozzie's jacket
27:17
and he's like, oh, what's that And Ozzie goes, you know,
27:18
like this, pulls out another dog, bites the head off, same thing.
27:22
So maybe it was three. I don't know. For he is a
27:27
little tricky sometimes, especially when it's over forty years and you have the bat
27:33
story in the book, you can't leave that out as number twenty eight.
27:36
And the fan throws a dead bat on stage, Azzie thinks it's a fake
27:40
rubber bat, and he bites it, and that's the famous story, and
27:42
then from there a legend was born. You cover Ozzie pissing on the Alamo,
27:48
all these made for headlines that really benefited Ozzie and they got him some
27:52
free publicity. But then tragedy strikes Randy Rhodes. He dies in that plane
27:56
crash. And this was so unnecessary that the thing, Daniel, that's just
28:00
it sucks so much about to hear this story, and it wasn't as if
28:04
Randy was on a plane headed for another gig or anything like that. March
28:07
nineteenth, nineteen eighty two. What happens and why did this happen? There
28:14
are conflicting accounts of what happened. Don Eery was outside of the tour bus
28:19
and he was taking pictures with the telephoto lens so he could get like really
28:25
tight shots of what was going on in the cockpit of the plane. The
28:30
plane was being flown by their tour bus driver who had been up like several
28:34
nights in a row, you know, empowering all the over night drives with
28:38
cocaine. And when you do that, you are not quite you're not quite
28:45
yourself, and you have a tendency not to make great decisions. And he
28:51
took I can't remember who he took up first. I think one member of
28:55
the crew and maybe Don Eery. But the second time he went up and
28:59
he took up Randy Rhodes and Rachel Youngblood who is a makeup artist for the
29:03
tour. Supposedly he was buzzing the tour bus for reasons we don't know.
29:10
And the third time he did it, the wing clicked the bus and the
29:14
plane crashed. Everyone killed instantly. There's conflicting accounts about what happened or why
29:19
it happened. I've read some things where some people were theorizing that he was
29:26
trying to kill his wife, his ex wife, who was on the tour
29:30
bus. I don't know. Don Airy had one kind of point of view
29:36
about what happened. Rudy Sarzo had a different point of view. Azzi had
29:41
a different point of view. And you know, we'll never really know exactly
29:44
what happened, because you know, the people who knew what happened are dead.
29:48
And I don't know why the guy felt like he needed to do that,
29:52
But I mean, you know, what was lost that day is unimaginable,
29:56
you know. I mean, can you imagine, like if Randy Rhodes
29:59
were still here today, how much amazing music he would you know, even
30:02
if he didn't work with Ozzie anymore, just like how much incredible music he
30:06
would have made. And you know he would be like, yes, so
30:10
yeah, this is forty two years ago, so he'd be in his sixties
30:14
right now, and that's that would have been like decades and decades of great
30:18
music and his playing would have gotten even better. And you know, there
30:22
was just so much that he still had to offer, and you know that
30:26
his life was cut short like that is I mean, my god, that's
30:30
horrible. Yeah. So he made two albums with Ozzie, and what albums
30:33
they are, but yeah, he could have done so much more. I
30:36
remember it's about twenty years ago. Kevin Dubro I interviewed him during my radio
30:40
days. He came through Connecticut. It was part of Quiet Riot Poison this
30:44
package Eightiestour Quiet Riot. Randy Rhodes was a member of Quiet Riot before before
30:48
he was an Ozzies band, and he said Randy wanted would have gone on
30:52
to just do classical. I mean he may have done that with Ozzie or
30:57
maybe just gone off and done Ascal for a while and come back. But
31:00
he said he was really serious about doing strictly classical, which you can hear
31:03
it in the in the music. Yeah, absolutely, I can totally see
31:07
that. Noan, you know, certainly if you listen to stuff like d
31:11
this is a classical guitar player, just like Bill Ward is a jazz drummer.
31:18
This is a classical guitar player. He's working within heavy metal, but
31:22
his approach, his classical but you know, a lot of eighties metal,
31:27
you know, like The Scorpions and Iron Maiden and Judas Priest and stuff like
31:30
that, a lot of it comes from a kind of a classical tradition and
31:36
you have to give Randy Rhodes a lot of credit for that. You know,
31:38
he's not the only one, but he definitely was at the forefront of
31:44
that kind of thing. I just don't think you would have heard, you
31:48
know, maybe him and Eddie van Halen. Without them, I just don't
31:52
think he would have heard as much classical influence on heavy metals during the eighties.
31:56
I don't think he would. And as he was devastated by death,
32:00
and it's amazing that he was able to rebound from that because he could have
32:04
gone back into I mean, he still was hitting the bottle hard, doing
32:07
the drugs, but that could have really destroyed him, but he did keep
32:10
going. It's interesting the future Night Ranger guitars. Brad Gillis is with Ozzie
32:15
briefly there. He's on that Speak of the Devil Live album that came out
32:19
after Randy's death, but it's Jak Lee that becomes the guy to fill Randy's
32:22
Big Shoes. He's on nineteen eighty three's Bark at the Moon, and you
32:27
know, Ozzie manages to move on, maintain success, but not without some
32:30
bad press coming from the suicide Solution lawsuit in nineteen eighty four, and that's
32:34
in the book, as you're right. For those who didn't live through the
32:36
eighties, hard to imagine how much Azzi had an influence over young minds.
32:43
How did he find himself in the center of this controversy, What were the
32:45
claims, and how did this case end up parents looking to make money.
32:50
Maybe that's a little glib on my part, but I'm just I'm not one
32:55
of these people who thinks, like, you know, he watched taxi driver
33:00
and then he murdered his girlfriend, so taxi driver is responsible, you know.
33:05
Just I've never been one of those people. I think if you do
33:07
stuff like that, you're already pretty fucked up and pretty crazy, you know
33:13
what I mean. I feel bad for the kid, obviously, because you
33:15
know, he was clearly not in a good state. You don't shoot yourself
33:20
if you're in a good state, you know. And I mean I can
33:22
kind of understand like the parents wanting to blame it on something, and you
33:27
know, because it's like you want to feel like you have some control over
33:31
what happened, or you want to sort of like control the narrative a little
33:36
bit or something, you know. I mean, if if something like that
33:37
were to happen in my family, I would have a very hard time being
33:42
like, oh, well, shit happens. What are you gonna do?
33:45
You know that, I mean, that would be completely devastating. And I'm
33:49
certainly not like what I said about the family wanting money is I should take
33:54
that back because that is a little glib. But at the same time,
33:59
it's he wasn't. Ozzie Osborne was not responsible and you can't blame him for
34:05
that. You can't blame Judas Priest either for what happened with them. It
34:09
doesn't work that way. But you know, I mean, having grown up
34:13
in the eighties, I certainly remember, you know, with Satanic panic and
34:17
you know, all that's you know, and people thinking like if you played
34:20
a record backwards then you know, you know, Satan would grab your soul.
34:24
That sort of ship people really believe, which ridiculous, you know,
34:30
But yeah, suicide Solution was the song, but it wasn't being played.
34:35
That was there was some strange odd thing how they'd kind of shoehorned Ozzie into
34:38
that whole story. He was listening to speak of the Devil, which suicide
34:43
Persian is not on that record, so it doesn't make any sense. But
34:49
somehow that's remember the lawyer trying to say that that subliminal messing, get the
34:55
gun, get the gun, get the gun, shoot shoot shoot, and
34:59
Ozzie he just that that footage of him just shaking his head. He's like,
35:02
I don't even know how to even answer. The page said something about
35:07
that too, where he was like, you know, yeah, we got
35:09
accused of, you know, the same sort of thing. And Stairway to
35:12
Heaven that if you played it backwards there would be all these messages, and
35:15
he was like, it was hard enough writing it forwards, you know,
35:20
like it was hard enough just writing the song in wonder Less, you know,
35:23
putting backwards shitting it if you if you played it the other way,
35:27
you know, but you know, people people want to believe a lot of
35:31
silly crap, and they will. The result of that lawsuit was I don't
35:36
believe Ozzie was held responsible. So the case was dismissed. Yeah, but
35:40
the judge did say something to the effect of, like, even garbage can
35:45
be given First Amendment protection too. Like you could tell the judge was like,
35:51
Oh, let's let's get this guy come on. But you know,
35:54
ultimately it just wasn't He couldn't do it. One of my all time favorite
35:58
clips is Rank Zappa on Crossfire. You've seen that. Their words there were
36:06
and he kept saying that all they're just words. Huh. Yeah, he
36:09
was the best. He fought. He fought those guys. It was like
36:13
three on one and he just said bring it and they could not weigh a
36:16
finger on him. And then they tried for sure just words he gives.
36:22
The event gives me is that he d Snyder and John Denver never got to
36:29
form a band together. Got a record about you know what they hit,
36:31
you know about testifying at Congress, because that would have been fantastic. John
36:37
Denver, I gotta I was quite surprised to see him show up at that
36:40
thing. Sure, Frank Zappa, Sure, and then it's like John Denver
36:47
the book Down Rock Podcasts will be back after this. Daniel Buckspan is on
36:53
the podcast his brand new book through Motor Books. His Ozzie at seventy five.
36:58
The book is out September. If Zach Wilde becomes Ozzie's guitarist nineteen eighty
37:01
eight, number thirty eight, moment number thirty eight in the book. He's
37:05
on no rest for the Wicked album, which is a huge commercial success,
37:08
but ninety ones No More Tears is even bigger, and you mark this is
37:13
number forty one in the book. Not only are the songs solid, No
37:15
More Tears a hit single on rock radio, and of course Mom I'm Coming
37:19
Home number twenty eight single. You say it's good timing that also helped.
37:23
Yeah, I mean I was I think like twenty one or twenty two when
37:27
that came out, and it was at the same time, Like this was
37:30
like literally within weeks of each other, like the self titled Metabolica album came
37:35
out never Mind by Nirvana. You know, it was like there's this sea
37:39
change, and he just, you know, Ozzie just had the good timing
37:45
to get his record out in the middle of all that. I think if
37:49
if it had come out too early or much later, you know, it
37:52
could have really been a problem because I mean, even White six months later,
37:57
heavy metal music was just really White Persona and on Garrata at that point.
38:01
I mean, I remember a lot of that just sort of changing almost
38:05
overnight, where you know, you'd have all these bands like you know,
38:09
Voivode and Slayer and you know, that sort of thing, and then sudden,
38:13
you know who had been popular a year ago and now just nobody wanted
38:17
anything to do with them. You know, a lot of people blame that
38:22
on alternative rock. I don't actually subscribe to that, but timing definitely is
38:28
a thing, and Ozzie just had the good timing to get that record out
38:31
at the right time. It was a good record too, which that album,
38:36
yeah, great stuff on it, and I mean I remember the first
38:39
time I heard it listening to Zach Wilde and being like, he sounds like
38:45
he plays in Molly Hatchett. He has this like total Southern rock style,
38:50
which to me was like, huh. I never would have thought of pairing
38:54
that with Ozzie ever, But it worked great. And you know, I
39:00
mean again, I think like the same as it was with Randy Rhodes.
39:04
It was just this real like Okay, we're clearing the decks new shit.
39:07
We did the old shit, this is the new shit. He's never been
39:10
scared to, you know, shake things up and you know, be like
39:15
okay, so we did this for a few records and we're good, let's
39:19
let's try something else us. He has never been formulaic. I know there
39:25
are people who may not agree with that, but you know, I mean
39:28
there's always been some progress and evolution on every album. He doesn't just do
39:34
the same shit over and over again. You know. I remember specifically when
39:37
that record came when No More Tears came out, I was just like,
39:40
wow, you know, this is this is not something I would have expected
39:45
at all from this guy. And to me, it really meant like,
39:47
yeah, you really can't count him out, you know, because that's all
39:51
anyone has ever done is write him off, count him out. You know,
39:55
he's going to die, He'll be a member of the twenty seven club
39:59
still here. I would say his last record, Patient number nine, is
40:05
one of his better records. I remember when the last record came out,
40:08
you know, the most of the reviews that I read for it were like,
40:13
this is a good record. He's going to die soon, you know.
40:16
It was it was just this kind of like you know, goodbye.
40:20
You know, he's sailing Off into the Sunset, you know, that sort
40:23
of thing, and then he comes out with another record that's one of the
40:27
best ones that he's done in years. You cannot write the guy off.
40:30
I don't. I don't know how he's still alive personally, and I know
40:34
that they did like a human genome project with him to to you know,
40:38
study his DNA and everything to see why he's still alive. Doesn't explain it.
40:43
In my opinion, He's been pretty prolific over the last ten years,
40:47
like Black Rain, he had the NonStop touring and the Black Sabbath Reunion reunion.
40:53
Yeah, yeah, and that's in your book too. That's the thing
40:57
that's funny because Ozzie retires in ninety two. He was in his mid forties.
41:01
He thought he was done, but he got bored, comes back.
41:06
Ozzfest is among the seventy five key moments in Azzi history. How'd that all
41:09
come together? And how important do you think that festival was to Azzi maintaining
41:14
his name is success in the nineties, Yeah, it was huge. What's
41:19
funny about it is what they wanted to do was see if they could get
41:22
him on Wallapalooza, you know, the festival organizers for Wallapalooza were like,
41:28
oh, you don't know, he's old news. Fuck him. And I
41:35
would say at this point that Ozzfest became much more successful than wallapool As ever
41:42
was. I saw oz Fest a couple of times. I saw Wallapalooza once,
41:47
and my entire thought process during Wallapaluza was getting me the fuck out of
41:52
here immediately. I hate this, but it wasn't my choice to go there.
41:59
And it was a long story, but I mean oz Fest, like
42:02
they there seemed to be a mission to it beyond just this is a good
42:06
thing for him to do. It was we want to kind of give a
42:09
form to all these bands that are not hit that are like, you know,
42:13
really you know, sort of considered like you know, dirty, unwashed,
42:19
you know, monsters, you know, that kind of thing. But
42:22
you know, he was talking about, you know, the state of like
42:24
if you were in a band at the time, you had to buy all
42:28
the tickets for the venue where you were playing and sell them to your friends
42:32
or you couldn't play. It was a really hostile environment for new bands.
42:38
And you know, a band like Sepultura or something like that is it's just
42:43
not going to happen. They're not They're just not that kind of band.
42:45
Fear Factory is not that kind of band. It doesn't work like that,
42:50
and it just wouldn't have It just wouldn't have worked. And I think,
42:54
you know, at that point, I don't you know, I don't want
42:55
to say Ozzy saw himself as like an elder statesman, but I think he
43:00
certainly had a feeling of like, you know, I've been around for a
43:04
while, I've done some good and you know, maybe now, you know,
43:07
I can kind of use my place in the world to help these new
43:12
bands out, you know, because that's worth doing, you know, because
43:15
he was saying, like, you know, the way the way things worked
43:17
at the time, Black Sabbath never would have gotten out of burning him because
43:22
they just would not have been able to sell all those tickets, and he
43:25
would be working at the at the Abbot War today, you know. And
43:30
the Sabbath reunion in late ninety seven, that was a successful tour, tried
43:35
to do a studio album that didn't happen. But then we get the Osbourne's
43:37
on MTV, so here we go again. It's like a whole new reinvention
43:40
of Ozzie and this is in the book. Of course, you got to
43:44
include this. It made Ozzy Osbourne even more famous because there were people who
43:47
knew little to nothing about Ozzie. Now they know him. He's like a
43:52
household name. But was this a good thing? Was Ozzie getting too much
43:55
attention for like the character Ozzie and not enough for his music? How do
44:00
you see a good move or did it take away from his I think ability
44:05
as a musician or well, I mean again, it's Ozzie and there are
44:09
things he can do that a lot of artists can't do. He's a unique
44:14
case. And there you know, just there there couldn't have been like the
44:19
Halford's you know there just it wouldn't have happened. There are things that Ozzy
44:25
Osborne can do that no one else can do. And I just I didn't
44:29
feel like that show took anything away from, you know, his music.
44:31
I didn't feel like that show demeaned him in any way. I know some
44:36
people did think that to me though, I mean a lot of the way
44:38
I see it is like the guys alive, and he can do what the
44:44
fuck he wants. And if he was enjoying it and didn't feel exploited.
44:50
I don't see the harm. I think it's fine, you know, and
44:52
I mean, you know, Sharon got cancer while that was going on,
44:57
and they were filming the show while she was in treatment. To me,
45:02
that's a lot more objectionable than how it all played out for Ozzie. Like
45:07
if it were me, I would have really wanted my privacy and not to
45:12
have all that like play out in front of the cameras if I had cancer.
45:15
But they're a public family, and you know, they their whole lives
45:20
have kind of played out publicly. The argument for the show is is that
45:25
Azzi proves he doesn't take himself too seriously, right, so he made him
45:30
more an endearing character. What was he poking fun at Sting ones where he's
45:35
trying to have a conversation with Sting and Sting was just kind of like thumbing
45:37
it, you know, people like you. I absolutely can't stand him.
45:44
I hate him. If I wasn't clear about that, Staying you don't like
45:47
Sting. I can't stand him. I do like a couple of the police
45:52
records. Staying himself, I think is the most portentious asshole on the face
45:59
and anything anyone, especially Ozzy Osborne has done to make sting uncomfortable. I
46:06
support all over Hey, speaking of credibility, because Sabbath's in the Rock and
46:15
Roll Hall of Fame, this is probably a stupid question. I know what
46:16
you're gonna say. Ozzy should be in there, right, He's not in
46:19
as a solo artist. Doesn't seem to care. I think happy that the
46:22
band got in. Yeah, that's another thing about him, though. I
46:25
don't think it matters to him too much. I think he's just happy out
46:29
there touring. Well, not now obviously because he can't tour, But to
46:34
me, he's like he's always been more about the work. He wants to
46:38
get out there and do things a lot more than he wants to be commemorated
46:43
for it, you know. I mean he was saying, you know when
46:45
Black Sabbath got inducted that you know he was he was proud. He was
46:51
certainly happy for the rest of the band, and you know, it was
46:53
it was a very important moment for them because, you know, because of
46:57
how much they had influenced bands like Metalla and they needed to be recognized.
47:02
It would be good if he made it in. Certainly, he deserves to
47:06
be in there, but I get the sense he doesn't really care that much.
47:09
One thing that he said, when Black Sabbath we're not getting in,
47:14
he was like, don't even worry about it. We're a people's band,
47:17
you know, and we're liked by people who buy the records, buy the
47:22
concert tickets, and those are the people who gave us our career, and
47:27
that's what's important. I have massive respect for that. You know, he
47:31
was a working class guy, and you know, he knows there's not a
47:35
lot of money out there for a concert ticket. He knows there's not a
47:37
lot of money out there for a new record, and I think there's part
47:44
of him that really feels like this really means something, that these people took
47:49
a chance on us and spent their money on us. I think also he
47:52
really viewed himself and the rest of the band is kind of like a gang
47:58
in some ways, like a street gang, and I think it was important
48:02
for him to feel like he was part of that. I don't know how
48:06
much he felt like it was important for him individually to be recognized. I
48:10
want to ask you about the twenty thirteen Sabbath reunion, which winds down in
48:15
twenty seventeen, with that tour. Unfortunately bill Ward wasn't there. This is
48:19
over contractual disputes, and they got Brad wilkon drums from Rage Against the Machine.
48:24
The album titled thirteen is released, the band goes on tour. What
48:28
are your thoughts on that reunion in the final twenty seventeen tour good end to
48:31
the Sabbath story? Well, I saw them in twenty thirteen at Barkley's Center
48:37
in Brooklyn, which was a horrible venue that sounds awful, really, the
48:43
worst acoustics you can imagine. They destroyed the fucking place. They fucking doors
48:49
off the place. And when I went to see them, I really wasn't
48:52
expecting much. I was like, I don't know, these guys are in
48:54
their sixties, how good can they be at this point. I was astonished
48:59
at how good they were. I really was not expecting that at all,
49:02
and I was very glad I went, you know, because I knew,
49:07
like, you know this, the window for this is kind of closing,
49:09
and so like, go check them out now while you can. As far
49:14
as the record thirteen, yeah, you know, there's good stuff on it.
49:20
I'm glad that the final Black Sabbath album is not forbidden, you know,
49:24
because that would have been like the worst tragedy since nine to eleven,
49:29
and you know, if that had been the last thing they ever did under
49:34
the Black Sabbath name. But I don't know, It's just there was a
49:37
I had sort of a feeling of like, I think it's a little too
49:39
late for them to like be making a new record, and this has this
49:45
kind of like retro feel to it that seems almost like a little like self
49:50
conscious, like even with the like you know, the tolling bell and rain
49:55
sounds at the end and everything was just kind of like did you have to?
49:59
You know, it's not bad, and certainly it's better than technical ecstasy,
50:05
I'll say that, but you know I mean that. I mean it
50:08
was playing live that really that was what really made me get religion with them.
50:15
They probably should have just been touring and you know, bringing it to
50:17
the people that way. People don't really buy records anymore anyway. That's a
50:23
whole other discussion, but you know, I can see how, like,
50:27
you know, guys have their vintage would sort of feel like, well,
50:30
you have to make a record if you're gonna tour, you have to.
50:32
I don't know, I want to finish with with where we're at now because
50:37
Ozzie struggled in recent years. He's turned seventy five on December third. Just
50:43
recently, his guitarist gushed Ge said he's hoping Ozzie can get back on track
50:46
play some shows. He canceled his appearance at the upcoming Power Trip festival in
50:52
California that was that is in October. Are you hoping for his return or
50:57
is it best for him just to call it a career. He's earned that,
51:00
right, there's nothing more to prove. I think if he can like
51:04
get up there one last time, that's great. And you know, for
51:07
you know, for anybody who never got a chance to see him, like
51:09
having one last sort of opportunity to make sure they do I think that would
51:14
be great. But you know, at the same time, like he has
51:16
nothing left to prove. He's clearly suffering physically. Is a Parkinson's that he
51:22
has. It's not just that he there was there was a problem with one
51:28
surgery that he had where he's he's just been in like constant pain for the
51:31
last three years, you know, and he's really not doing well. I
51:37
can see him still being the kind of guy who's like, no, the
51:39
show must go on. I will get up there. The fans want it.
51:45
He is that kind of guy, and I could see that happening.
51:47
But there's part of me that's, like, you major point. You know,
51:52
many times you did no more tours twice. You know that's you've you've
51:59
proven, you've proved yourself, and maybe now is a good time to just
52:02
enjoy life with your family and do some gardening. And you know you don't
52:09
because he doesn't have anything to prove at this point. No, he hasn't
52:14
for some time. But you know it's to me what really the point is
52:20
really that like if he's like in pain, if he's physically suffering, I
52:23
don't think you should do it. And if you look at the body of
52:28
work there between Black Sabbath and Solo, very few can match that. It's
52:34
really I can't anybody I would compare him to. You know, do you
52:38
have a favorite solo album and a favorite Sabbath album? My favorite Uzzy solo
52:45
album is Diary of a Madman, which is just a fucking banger. And
52:51
you know, there's nothing nothing further I can say about that album that has
52:57
not already been said by everybody for Black Sabbath albums. It depends on what
53:02
day it is, because like some days, I really loved Sabbath, Bloody
53:07
Sabbath. There's also the debut Paranoid Master of Reality trio that I kind of
53:15
consider one album really the first six, but if I had to pick one,
53:21
probably a Master of Reality because that is a heavy fucking record, Yes,
53:25
super heavy. I think that's the one that's an influenced a lot of
53:29
the grunge bands. Yeah, I think so. Kurt Obain, I think
53:32
said something to that effect, like and Geezer Butler even said something to the
53:37
effect of, like, you know, we were really blown away when you
53:40
know, Nirvana and all those bands cited us as an influence because everyone hated
53:45
us and you could not be less cool. Then if you like Black Sabbath,
53:51
it was not possible. And then twenty years later here's all these you
53:55
know, kids in flannel and they loved it and they were not ashamed to
54:00
say so. The tuning other guitars, that was something that a lot of
54:04
those like Soundgarden Kim Thile talked about that. Yeah, Diaryva Madman second album
54:08
with Randy Blizzard of Oz and Diaryva Madman. Those two albums, man,
54:13
those those consider one album too. You know, not that it's just more
54:17
of the same shit, but they're consistent, and you know it's not like
54:25
it's not like they're repeating themselves. It's just like this, you know,
54:30
this is kind of it's sort it's like those first three Black Sabbath albums where
54:35
it's like this is one statement sort of. Ozzie had seventy five out September
54:39
fifth through Motor books available ever books are sold and by the way, just
54:44
beautifully packaged. That's the thing. I mean, this is not just a
54:47
great read, but it's just the way it was put together. You've got
54:50
to be so happy to be part of this whole series. No, I
54:53
didn't have anything to do with the design or anything like that. And then
54:58
when I got my author copy, I was like, holy shit. Yeah
55:04
he's saying, yeah, it's got a poster in there. I mean,
55:07
they do such an amazing job. Nice let's slipcase cover. Yeah, every
55:15
AUSSI fan should have it. And where can people find you online? Daniel?
55:19
My website is notorious buk dot com. I love that Torrius Buk exactly.
55:29
I'm not going to make people spell my last name. That's a cool
55:31
errand you know, and I'm on Instagram and but now find the website.
55:38
That's probably the best place to find me. Cool Daniel. Thanks, this
55:42
was great to have you on the podcast. I hope to have you back
55:45
on again in the future. You've got another book on rock and roll,
55:46
you know you've You've got an open invite here. Thank you very much.
55:51
I appreciate it. That's it. It's in the books.