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Bhutan Grades Itself On Happiness · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the
0:27
Speaker 1: show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for
0:31
Speaker 1: tuning in. We're so glad that you're here. If you're
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Speaker 1: hearing this the day it comes out, Welcome to November twelfth,
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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. We're midway on the way to Thanksgiving
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Speaker 1: and we have a travel episode for you. Before we
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Speaker 1: do this, let us describe your three favorite companions for
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Speaker 1: a crazy, crazy international trip. First off, our super producer,
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Speaker 1: mister Max Williams.
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Speaker 2: Woo who We're gonna climb some mountains.
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Speaker 3: Y'all sure?
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Speaker 1: Second, our main man here, known as the bag Man.
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Speaker 1: In some areas of the world, it's mister Noel Brown.
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Speaker 3: Give it up. They call me Bilbo Bagman. It's true.
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Speaker 3: In speaking of that, you know, when you ask this
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Speaker 3: question about, you know, traveling campaigns, I immediately my mind
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Speaker 3: goes to, like, who's my D and D party? What
1:24
Speaker 3: are each individuals like superpower abilities.
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Speaker 1: That will serve us on this quest? We need the specialties?
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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And it's your boy Ben Bowling our our
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Speaker 1: question today.
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Speaker 3: This is something that's been.
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Speaker 1: On our minds pretty often for years now. Noel, Max
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Speaker 1: and I have had conversations about a place called.
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Speaker 3: Bhutan, a magical place far away land land locked in fact,
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Speaker 3: country on the eastern ridges of the glorious Himalayas that
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Speaker 3: has been referred to by some as the last Shangri Law. Yes,
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Speaker 3: I haven't, Bye, we have not yet mounted this sojourn
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Speaker 3: yet though, have we been, because it's kind of hard to.
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Speaker 1: Get to Yeah, yeah, have you ever visited Bhutan? For
2:11
Speaker 1: most people the answer is no, and Stade Statistically, if
2:17
Speaker 1: you asked most of most Americans, we're Americans. If you
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Speaker 1: ask most of us to point to Boton on a map.
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Speaker 3: Couldn't do it. I could do if the name was
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Speaker 3: on there. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's why we make maps that way, history
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Speaker 1: of cartography.
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Speaker 3: It's aitty bitty though, right, And it's nestled amongst a
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Speaker 3: lot of much larger land masses, so it would now
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Speaker 3: you know, looking at it zoomed out, it's kind of
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Speaker 3: a spec You might not even be able to read
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Speaker 3: the text, Max.
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Speaker 1: Mm hm, you might just see it be and an h.
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Speaker 1: We also know to your point, Noel, that Bouton is,
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Speaker 1: as you said, high up in the heavens of the Himalayas.
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Speaker 1: It's nestled between Tibet, which is controlled by China, and
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Speaker 1: nestled between any Quebet, which, yeah, which already.
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Speaker 3: It's nineteen ninety five all over it.
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Speaker 1: And China and India are two of the biggest up
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Speaker 1: and coming countries in the world. They're going places, don't
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Speaker 1: you think, I you know what I I think it's
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Speaker 1: part of my different job if I say anything about it.
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Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, sorry, no worries.
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Speaker 1: Back in twenty twenty one, we spoke about Baton briefly
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Speaker 1: referring to we had an episode on what Weird Courtship Rituals,
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Speaker 1: and we talked about the Bhutanese practice of night hunting.
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Speaker 3: Oh, I don't remember night hunting. That sounds a little scary.
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Speaker 3: This is a courtship practice. Sounds a little hunger gamez
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Speaker 3: I don't know.
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Speaker 1: This is a travel episode because Noel Max, we're journeying
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Speaker 1: back to Batan because there is a different, odd, wholesome
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Speaker 1: aspect of this country as well, which has been described
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Speaker 1: as ridiculous by certain outsiders. But we're we're kind of
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Speaker 1: into it. It's the only Vajiana Buddhist nation in the world,
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Speaker 1: and for a lot of people it's a dream destination,
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Speaker 1: but it's pretty tough to get there.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it is. But that dream that is kept
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Speaker 3: alive in Bhutan is in no small part due to
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Speaker 3: how they measure the success of their country much much,
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Speaker 3: much differently than we do here for certain in the
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Speaker 3: United States. Rather than monetary measures, they're looking a little
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Speaker 3: more inward. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, Bhutan does not graid its success as a country.
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Speaker 1: And to your point earlier in Bhutan is not a
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Speaker 1: big country by any means. It has a population about
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Speaker 1: eight hundred thousand in twenty twenty four. It decided at
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Speaker 1: some point not to create it success in terms of
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Speaker 1: gross domestic product, in terms of economic output. Instead, they
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Speaker 1: hung out and back in the nineteen seventies they said,
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Speaker 1: maybe we should define success for our country by how
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Speaker 1: happy the people living in it are.
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Speaker 3: Well, that sounds nice. Let's get into this and how
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Speaker 3: this works. After a quick cold open bring and we've returned.
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Speaker 3: All right.
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Speaker 1: The land we call Bhuton today was inhabited by humans
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Speaker 1: as early as two thousand BCE. But as we were
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Speaker 1: talking about off air, we still don't know a lot
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Speaker 1: about its ancient origins. So, uh, Noel, maybe you and
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Speaker 1: I can give people just the high level. That's funny
5:51
Speaker 1: because it's a high elevation country.
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Speaker 3: Success. Oh man, there's apparently this movie this dropped recently
5:57
Speaker 3: called Elevation. That's a total ripoff of a quiet place.
6:01
Speaker 3: But the kind of the inverse where it's these monsters
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Speaker 3: that cannot exist at high elevation. So Bhutan would be
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Speaker 3: spared from the apocalypse brought on by the creatures in
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Speaker 3: this apparently quite hacky creature feature. That's that's out in
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Speaker 3: the theater soon. But yeah, it's true. Ben Buddhism was
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Speaker 3: first introduced to the people of Bhutan in the seventh
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Speaker 3: century AD, when Tibetan king's Songsten Gompo reigned from six
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Speaker 3: twenty seven to six forty nine, converted to Buddhism and
6:27
Speaker 3: extended the Tibetan Empire into the area that empire he
6:31
Speaker 3: already controlled. So I mean, is this this is It's
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Speaker 3: easy to in a footnote of history say extended the
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Speaker 3: Tibetan Empire, but that would be by way of conquest, right. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't a cool zoom meeting.
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Speaker 3: Right. He didn't just pop over and said, yeah, come
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Speaker 3: join us.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, they didn't say he made some good points. No,
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Speaker 1: this was the old story of historical conquest, blood and treasure.
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Speaker 1: We know by the tenth century, Bhuton's adoption of Buddhism
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Speaker 1: had a significant impact on its political development. It's always
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Speaker 1: been a theocracy from that point. And locally, what's curious
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Speaker 1: going to our point about how we don't know much
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Speaker 1: about the providence of Bhutan. Locally, it's been known by
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Speaker 1: many names. The first Europeans to get over there were
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Speaker 1: Portuguese and they were Jesuits.
7:28
Speaker 3: Classic. Oh, and if you really want to see a
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Speaker 3: cool depiction of some of these types of individuals who
7:34
Speaker 3: you know were off in the front lines of exploration
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Speaker 3: and conquest, check out Showgun, the FX series. There's a
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Speaker 3: whole plot involving like Portuguese Jesuits.
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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, And the Portuguese Jesuits that reached bhutand this
7:50
Speaker 1: occurs in sixteen twenty seven. They were Estevao, Casella and
7:55
Speaker 1: dal Cabral and they talk to other people and surrounding areas,
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Speaker 1: and whenever they asked about what we call Bhutan today,
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Speaker 1: people would say, oh, that's the Canberrasaci, whether Potente or
8:12
Speaker 1: the mall. It really depended on who you asked. As
8:16
Speaker 1: far as what name.
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Speaker 3: That you got, well, and that makes sense because until
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Speaker 3: the early seventeenth century they really existed as this kind
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Speaker 3: of loose connection of fiefdoms that were under the control
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Speaker 3: of different kind of I don't know, warlords or whatever
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Speaker 3: you might want to call them, but they did not
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Speaker 3: get along with each other, so there really wasn't much
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Speaker 3: unity to speak of. That unity did eventually come when
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Speaker 3: the Tibetan lama and military leader Nawang Yam y'all, who
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Speaker 3: had actually fled from religious persecution in Tibet, showed up
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Speaker 3: and basically unified these warring clans I guess you could
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Speaker 3: call them, yeah.
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Speaker 1: And he built this network of impregnable fortresses they're call
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Speaker 1: zongs dzo ngs. The most famous kind of example of
9:03
Speaker 1: this architecture is the Tiger's Nest. So look that up
9:08
Speaker 1: with your favorite recreational vice of choice and prepare to
9:11
Speaker 1: learn really cool stuff.
9:13
Speaker 3: This guy.
9:15
Speaker 1: This guy helmed the building of these fortresses and then
9:19
Speaker 1: also set forth a code of law that, to your point,
9:23
Speaker 1: Noel unified these other fiefdoms altogether. And here's a crazy
9:29
Speaker 1: conspiracy for you, folks. When Gahweang Namgau died in sixteen
9:35
Speaker 1: fifty one, the unified government was so important and so
9:41
Speaker 1: fragile that his successors decided to just not tell anyone
9:47
Speaker 1: the leader died for fifty four years.
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Speaker 3: You know, if they had had camera phones and the
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Speaker 3: internet back then, they wouldn't have been able to keep
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Speaker 3: a lit on this, even though they probably didn't wouldn't
9:57
Speaker 3: get good reception up there in them hills. But yeah,
10:01
Speaker 3: you think about the ability to keep a secret like
10:03
Speaker 3: that by today's standards, and it's just kind of mind
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Speaker 3: boggling that they were able to do that. Yeah, Like,
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Speaker 3: did they just tell him? He'll get back to you.
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Speaker 3: You know. Anyway, you can't turn on the computer without
10:15
Speaker 3: finding a spoiler for your favorite TV show, let alone
10:18
Speaker 3: that the leader of a free nation died, right.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And we still don't know a ton of early
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Speaker 1: history of Butad because most of the records were sadly
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Speaker 1: destroyed in a fire that ravaged the ancient capital back
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Speaker 1: in eighteen twenty seven.
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Speaker 3: That's right. Then, in nineteen oh seven, which is kind
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Speaker 3: of a big year, a red letter year for the country,
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Speaker 3: when Wang Chuk was chosen unanimously as the hereditary king
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Speaker 3: of the country by the Lengye Shog of leading Buddhist monks.
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Speaker 3: I imagine the len Ye Shog is a particular title,
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Speaker 3: like a high level official within this order of Buddhist monks, right,
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Speaker 3: which was also in control of the government. Right.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no discernible separation of church and state in this,
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Speaker 1: which would make it arguably a theocracy. The person you're mentioning,
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Speaker 1: Wang Chuk got the coside of the leader of the
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Speaker 1: Buddhist monks, very powerful force, the local government officials, the
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Speaker 1: heads of every rich family. This is the basis of
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Speaker 1: modern Bhuton today. And there have been some interesting and
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Speaker 1: sometimes inspiring plot twist along the way, especially that time
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Speaker 1: they said, Hey, why is the rest of the world
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Speaker 1: so stressed about this money thing? Does money really make
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Speaker 1: you happy? This is where we enter the wholesome, ridiculous
11:52
Speaker 1: history part of the episode nol Gross National Happiness.
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Speaker 3: I mean, it's when going over this material and digging
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Speaker 3: a little further into it on my own, you start
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Speaker 3: to look at this and almost it seems like it
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Speaker 3: would be immediately mocked by certain capitalist forces, you know,
12:14
Speaker 3: or just by folks that are running the government like
12:16
Speaker 3: here in the United States, like the idea that anything
12:19
Speaker 3: other than constant year over year, monetary growth is the
12:24
Speaker 3: way to measure success. Would be found to be absurd
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Speaker 3: by these types of folks and worthy of mockery. Like
12:30
Speaker 3: I could picture certain individuals, you know, pundits or whatever,
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Speaker 3: just absolutely dragging something like this or a country like this,
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Speaker 3: and say, how could you even possibly think like this?
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Speaker 1: Right here in the West, in the United States in particular,
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Speaker 1: and in a lot of other industrialized nations, the idea
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Speaker 1: of happiness is equated with money. There's a New York
12:53
Speaker 1: Times article that explores this in a fascinating way, where
12:57
Speaker 1: in the journalist notes economists as your consumer confidence on
13:01
Speaker 1: the assumption that the resulting figure says something about progress
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Speaker 1: and public welfare. The gross domestic product or GDP is
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Speaker 1: routinely used as shorthand for the well being of a nation.
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Speaker 3: But Noel, we've.
13:15
Speaker 1: Talked about this off air. I've talked about this with Max,
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Speaker 1: and economy can be doing gangbusters and the people in
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Speaker 1: the place where the economy is doing well can be
13:26
Speaker 1: having horrible lives.
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Speaker 3: It's just a misnomer. I mean, I'm sorry, We're not
13:31
Speaker 3: here to soapbox about any of this kind of stuff.
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Speaker 3: And you know, to quote Biggie, more money, more problems.
13:36
Speaker 3: I mean, that's absolutely true. And the older you get
13:39
Speaker 3: and the more you start to maybe come into a
13:42
Speaker 3: career or whatever, the expectations is to continue to rise.
13:46
Speaker 3: And given our position kind of in this system that
13:49
Speaker 3: we're talking about here in the US, you start to
13:51
Speaker 3: kind of judge yourself against that GDP and judge yourself
13:54
Speaker 3: against these expectations of wealth. And if you're not careful,
13:58
Speaker 3: you spend your entire life, you know, and the more
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Speaker 3: money you have, the more you want to have more,
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Speaker 3: the more you want to be like the next guy.
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Speaker 3: And that isn't happiness. I'm sorry, it's just not what
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Speaker 3: happiness is. In fact, it's misery.
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Speaker 1: Gotta watch Apocalypto. They have a thing about this anyway.
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Speaker 1: So yes, I think we're raising good points. The Kingdom
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Speaker 1: of Bhutad is not trying to be a huge expansionist empire. Instead,
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Speaker 1: gross national happiness, which is sometimes called gross domestic happiness.
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Speaker 1: It's a philosophy that currently guides the government. What it
14:33
Speaker 1: means essentially is this, the country has decided to eschew
14:38
Speaker 1: or throw away the traditional economic metrics, and they said,
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Speaker 1: you know what, we're going to figure out our country's
14:46
Speaker 1: vibe based on how much everybody wins, how we develop
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Speaker 1: socioeconomic equitable situation, how do we conserve the environment, how
14:59
Speaker 1: do we preserve and promote our culture, how do we
15:03
Speaker 1: make sure our government is not corrupt. That's a checklist
15:06
Speaker 1: of cool stuff.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, win for one is a win for all. And
15:09
Speaker 3: I know what a lot of folks might be thinking, like,
15:11
Speaker 3: is this vaguely communist or vaguely socialists And it's not
15:16
Speaker 3: exactly real own thing, right, Like really, yeah, it's super interesting.
15:20
Speaker 3: So I mean to the government of Bhutan, it's simple.
15:23
Speaker 3: In two thousand and nine, the leader his eminence the
15:28
Speaker 3: rin Pouchet, which is a big deal. This is this
15:30
Speaker 3: like spiritual kind of the idea of a reincarnated spiritual
15:33
Speaker 3: like the king of the monks, right, his eminence Ked
15:36
Speaker 3: Drupchen ren Puschet, the fifth ree incarnate and head the
15:40
Speaker 3: sang Chen again Suklach Monastery. Again, very much a theocracy.
15:46
Speaker 3: And you were doing a great job with these prefaciations,
15:49
Speaker 3: doing my best. That's in Troungsta, Bhutan. He actually became
15:53
Speaker 3: the youngest ever ren puschet or spiritual leader spiritual master
15:57
Speaker 3: in the history of Bhutan at only nineteen years old.
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Speaker 3: So that was a big deal in and of itself. And
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Speaker 3: it would seem that he put his money where his
16:04
Speaker 3: mouth is, or vice my mouth where his money would go,
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Speaker 3: and we're going to get rid of money. I don't know,
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Speaker 3: it's a bad metaphor, but he really wanted to practice
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Speaker 3: what he preached on a large scale in terms of, like,
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Speaker 3: how can we separate ourselves from some of the more
16:21
Speaker 3: you know, secular trappings and things that are ultimately can
16:25
Speaker 3: be negative for people's mental well being and focus a
16:28
Speaker 3: little bit more on kind of a holistic approach to
16:31
Speaker 3: mental and spiritual health.
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Speaker 1: I uyeah, yeah, one hundred percent nailed it. He was
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Speaker 1: a or is a liaison to the larger world outside
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Speaker 1: of Baton, and to these guys, this is a very
16:45
Speaker 1: simple thing. It's just quote a set of collective conditions
16:50
Speaker 1: that is generally needed to live a good life. And look,
16:55
Speaker 1: everybody outside of Baton, we live in a world that
17:00
Speaker 1: is just chock full of complicated governmental economic policies. To
17:05
Speaker 1: put things so simply sounds refreshing. But how did they
17:09
Speaker 1: get there? How does this idea of quantifying happiness works?
17:15
Speaker 1: To answer that? To like, answer even where it comes from.
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Speaker 1: We have to go back to nineteen seventy two, which
17:21
Speaker 1: technically means this is within our purview.
17:25
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it's more beautiful. Well, the story and the
17:28
Speaker 3: origin of Bhutan as well within our perduc okay, but yeah,
17:31
Speaker 3: as a nation. But you're right, it's crazy how modern
17:35
Speaker 3: this this concept is. So let's travel back to nineteen
17:38
Speaker 3: seventy two together Bhutan's newly crowned leader, King Yigme. See,
17:43
Speaker 3: I'm getting all the pronunciations today. King Jigme Singye wang
17:48
Speaker 3: Chuk was very much pondering this conundrum, you know, of
17:54
Speaker 3: how when you focus on economic growth exclusively as a
17:57
Speaker 3: measure of the success of your nation, you're kind of
18:00
Speaker 3: ignoring your citizens actual well being and your citizen's actual happiness.
18:06
Speaker 3: Because he kind of clocked what we've both been screaming
18:09
Speaker 3: this whole time that I just think that GDP to
18:12
Speaker 3: happiness quot shent is absolutely out of whack.
18:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, sorry, economists, and his excellency studied abroad. He went
18:23
Speaker 1: to different parts of the world, and he felt like
18:26
Speaker 1: he was seeing the same thing over and over again.
18:30
Speaker 1: People would say, Oh, the GDP is great, Oh the
18:34
Speaker 1: economy is increasing, but when he walked the streets right
18:40
Speaker 1: when he saw the people on the ground, he saw
18:43
Speaker 1: countless cases of environmental degradation, he saw startling inequality, and yes,
18:50
Speaker 1: if you're wondering, he did that part of his education
18:52
Speaker 1: in India, and he saw war and he saw crime proliferating,
18:56
Speaker 1: and he said, you know what we need, Bhutad. We
19:00
Speaker 1: need to ensure that any prosperity our country encounters is
19:05
Speaker 1: shared across society. That's the only sustainable way to do it.
19:09
Speaker 1: We need to preserve the cultural traditions, the things that
19:13
Speaker 1: make us Bhutanese. We got to protect our environment. And
19:17
Speaker 1: if people say to the government that there is a problem,
19:21
Speaker 1: we need a government to respond without corruption. And from
19:25
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two, he's still in school when he cooks
19:27
Speaker 1: up this idea. He's the guy who coins the term
19:31
Speaker 1: gross national happiness. From nineteen seventy two all the way
19:36
Speaker 1: to another plot twist. He spends the next decades trying
19:40
Speaker 1: to just do that.
19:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it kind of catches on beyond his country.
19:49
Speaker 3: You know, there's a really great New York Times piece
19:51
Speaker 3: that came out in two thousand and five by Andrew C. Revkin.
19:54
Speaker 3: And Revkin had this to say about it. Around the world,
19:57
Speaker 3: a growing number of economists, social scienceists, corporate leaders, and
20:01
Speaker 3: bureaucrats are trying to develop a measurement that takes into
20:04
Speaker 3: account not just the flow of money, but also access
20:07
Speaker 3: to healthcare, free time with family, conservation of natural resources,
20:11
Speaker 3: and other non economic factors. Been does this sound familiar? Oh?
20:16
Speaker 1: Think our buddy may have been ahead of his time.
20:19
Speaker 3: Huh.
20:19
Speaker 1: So what we're showing you here is even economists that
20:21
Speaker 1: are largely disconnected from the inner world of Bhutan or
20:26
Speaker 1: the wider spiritual world of Buddhism, they heard this philosophy
20:32
Speaker 1: and they said, yeah, maybe there's something missing, so much
20:35
Speaker 1: so that in two thousand and five, four hundred people
20:40
Speaker 1: from a dozen plus countries got together in Nova Scotia
20:43
Speaker 1: for a conference where they said, let's try to reimagine
20:48
Speaker 1: the dismal science of economics. And also that is the
20:52
Speaker 1: street name for the study of economies. It's called the
20:57
Speaker 1: dismal science.
20:58
Speaker 3: Are you serious? I am so serious. That's incredible. That's
21:01
Speaker 3: why I didn't pursue it. I had no idea is
21:04
Speaker 3: that that? Yeah? Wow, okay, that so much makes sense now.
21:09
Speaker 3: But this included in that four hundred three dozen representatives
21:14
Speaker 3: from Ding Ding Ding, Bhutan, including monks, government officials, teachers,
21:19
Speaker 3: and others you know involved in this kind of you know,
21:22
Speaker 3: philosophy of measuring a country's success by the happiness of
21:28
Speaker 3: its citizens. Imagine that the idea of building a content
21:32
Speaker 3: fulfilled and happy and equitable society.
21:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, and don't get it twisted. We have to
21:39
Speaker 1: put this part in. The people of Bhutan are by
21:42
Speaker 1: a large not rich at all. While household incomes in
21:49
Speaker 1: Bhutan are still amid the world's lowest, especially if you
21:53
Speaker 1: look at GDP bup bup bup, bup up up. We
21:57
Speaker 1: know that the policies enacted under the idea prioritizing happiness
22:05
Speaker 1: have resulted in higher quality of life, in higher life expectancy.
22:10
Speaker 1: From nineteen eighty four to nineteen ninety eight, just a
22:13
Speaker 1: little more than a decade, life expectancy increased by nineteen years.
22:20
Speaker 3: And you might be thinking, well, as history progresses, life
22:22
Speaker 3: expectancy does tend to go up. But this, I think
22:25
Speaker 3: we could all argue, is even outside of the norm
22:28
Speaker 3: of you know, maybe what would just happen organically by
22:32
Speaker 3: the availability of medicine and medical technology and things like that.
22:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's stunning, It is astonishing, and the country is
22:41
Speaker 1: still extremely strict about development. At least sixty to seventy two.
22:50
Speaker 1: I think seventy two percent of its country remains forested.
22:55
Speaker 1: It does welcome a limited supply of wealthy tourists. We'll
22:59
Speaker 1: talk about it at the end because I'm going to
23:01
Speaker 1: try to pitch you with Max and going with me.
23:04
Speaker 1: And it makes money by exporting hydro power to India
23:08
Speaker 1: because it's up in the mountains, you know, it's got
23:10
Speaker 1: that glacial connect.
23:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know, I think the focus here, or
23:13
Speaker 3: the takeaway is that the incredible prioritization of their natural
23:19
Speaker 3: resources and their history and the you know, beauty of
23:22
Speaker 3: their country. Ben you mentioned I think it was called
23:25
Speaker 3: the Tiger's Nest at the top, which is one of
23:27
Speaker 3: those fortified situations, you know, that one of the early
23:31
Speaker 3: rulers of the country, you know, focused on. They're literally
23:34
Speaker 3: these gorgeous kind of I don't know I'm saying Pagoda
23:37
Speaker 3: esque type structures because that's just what I liken them too.
23:40
Speaker 3: But they're mounted like on the sides of these incredible
23:43
Speaker 3: steep cliff sides, and it's an absolute marvel of engineering
23:49
Speaker 3: in and of itself, and that's the kind of stuff
23:51
Speaker 3: that they're not gonna let people mess with, you know.
23:54
Speaker 3: And you can't hike that trail, you know, up the mountain.
23:57
Speaker 3: It's called the Tigers Nests and it's like very difficult
24:01
Speaker 3: pass to hike. But you see all this beautiful stuff
24:03
Speaker 3: that is an example of the way they preserve their
24:05
Speaker 3: history and their their natural you know features.
24:09
Speaker 1: And despite what longtime listeners may know about me as
24:14
Speaker 1: an entity, I love monasteries. Have you gone to the
24:18
Speaker 1: monastery in Conyers.
24:19
Speaker 3: We've talked about it that I've got to, we got
24:21
Speaker 3: we got to, and I really want to. Next.
24:24
Speaker 1: Do you want to go with us to a monastery?
24:26
Speaker 1: I promise there will be no hot air balloons.
24:28
Speaker 3: We'll even provide a mantra for you.
24:30
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm totally doing a monastor. Actually a few
24:33
Speaker 2: months back, when I was in New York, I was
24:35
Speaker 2: sitting Noel texts photos.
24:37
Speaker 3: I was in Uh.
24:38
Speaker 2: My friends really wanted to go to the Lego store,
24:41
Speaker 2: which I was like, okay, and I was like, I
24:43
Speaker 2: don't want a Lego store. In right across street was
24:45
Speaker 2: a giant cathedral. The Giant Cathedral, which was the most
24:49
Speaker 2: capitalistic place I went in all of New York, the
24:52
Speaker 2: Lego store, the cathedral, so much more capitalistic. It was like, yeah,
24:58
Speaker 2: one can years ago everything with all.
25:03
Speaker 1: That money goes directly to God, though, and I forgive
25:06
Speaker 1: you for not texting me as well.
25:09
Speaker 3: That is the spirit of Buddhism.
25:11
Speaker 1: But the Catholic Monastery Our Lady of the Holy Spirit
25:15
Speaker 1: out in Conyers is great.
25:17
Speaker 3: Get to go visit if you have a chance.
25:19
Speaker 1: They're not going to try to proselytize with you. They've
25:21
Speaker 1: got also an awesome Bondzeye Museum. The Tiger's Nest in
25:26
Speaker 1: the local language is Pero Taksong. So this becomes the
25:32
Speaker 1: official goal. Gross national happiness becomes the official goal of
25:36
Speaker 1: the government of Bhutan in the enshrine it in the
25:39
Speaker 1: Constitution which has enacted on July eighteenth, two thousand and eight.
25:51
Speaker 1: So from nineteen seventy two to two thousand and eight,
25:54
Speaker 1: the king who had this epiphany has been working ardently
26:01
Speaker 1: toward this goal. And look for the more cynical amid us.
26:06
Speaker 1: This may sound like a performative political thing.
26:10
Speaker 3: But.
26:12
Speaker 1: This is where we get to another I think very
26:15
Speaker 1: wholesome piece of ridiculous history, it's neat.
26:18
Speaker 3: It's kind of weird.
26:19
Speaker 1: So the leaders of Bhutad and the king this is
26:23
Speaker 1: still pretty much an absolute monarchy until two thousand and eight.
26:27
Speaker 1: They evaluate happiness through multiple lenses and they get to
26:32
Speaker 1: the idea of what government makes people or gives them
26:35
Speaker 1: the best chance for happiness, and they say, let's try democracy,
26:40
Speaker 1: and no, I think this stood out to both of us.
26:42
Speaker 3: The people did not love the idea now, and that's
26:46
Speaker 3: why it's a really complicated thing. Immediately you're like, Okay,
26:50
Speaker 3: that's unusual, but it is sort of there's multiple ways
26:54
Speaker 3: to look at it where it's like, on the one hand,
26:57
Speaker 3: you could argue that maybe they were just so you
27:00
Speaker 3: to existing under a under that form of government that
27:04
Speaker 3: they were kind of spooked. But then you can also
27:07
Speaker 3: look at it as like it was just working for
27:10
Speaker 3: them and they believed in the benevolence of their leader,
27:13
Speaker 3: because like, dictatorships are only I think truly bad when
27:18
Speaker 3: the leader is corrupt, you know, and there's no real
27:22
Speaker 3: focus on the people. But it would seem that their
27:24
Speaker 3: king really did care about the people and made choices
27:27
Speaker 3: that directly benefited the people. Yeah.
27:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, the people of Bhutah. The Bhutanese were super on
27:35
Speaker 1: board with this. They loved the king, as this is
27:38
Speaker 1: a religious figure. The king is the one who came
27:42
Speaker 1: to the folks and said, all right, we're going to
27:44
Speaker 1: try out democracy in some form technically constitutional monarchy, and
27:51
Speaker 1: this tested his otherwise absolute rule. If you look at
27:55
Speaker 1: news reports of the time, you'll see that people in Bhutah,
27:59
Speaker 1: like you said, Dol, we're apprehensive, they were reluctant to
28:03
Speaker 1: embrace this. And I love that you're pointing out context
28:06
Speaker 1: here because if we go to an interview with the
28:09
Speaker 1: country's first democratically elected prime minister, who's got a really
28:14
Speaker 1: interesting name, it feels part Bhutanese and for some reason
28:19
Speaker 1: part Victorian England.
28:20
Speaker 3: A little bit. Yeah me, why Thinley? Why Thinley? I
28:24
Speaker 3: don't know if that's very unusual.
28:26
Speaker 1: We've got a response from him in a long form
28:29
Speaker 1: interview he had with the Council on Foreign Relations where
28:33
Speaker 1: he was put in a weird situation where as one
28:37
Speaker 1: of the first democratically elected officials, he had to explain
28:42
Speaker 1: why the country was maybe not super on board with
28:45
Speaker 1: democracy and the visa Keen.
28:47
Speaker 3: It's also like, I mean not to be too I
28:50
Speaker 3: already kind of get it. I mean, look at how
28:52
Speaker 3: democracy works in other parts of the country and also
28:55
Speaker 3: in that region. So many failed democracies I could totally
28:59
Speaker 3: get on with thinking that maybe it was not the
29:02
Speaker 3: best experiment to try, right and you know, and he
29:06
Speaker 3: put it this way, we'll break it up. Like you said,
29:08
Speaker 3: the people were not keen on bringing the kind of
29:10
Speaker 3: change that, in their eyes and in their mind could
29:12
Speaker 3: not be very different from what they saw in the
29:14
Speaker 3: world at large, and in particular in our neighboring countries
29:17
Speaker 3: in South Asia.
29:19
Speaker 1: In many of the countries than they continues, democracy had
29:22
Speaker 1: failed or was in the process of failing, and leading
29:26
Speaker 1: to tremendous upheavals strife among the people.
29:30
Speaker 3: In some cases, they have seen so much violence that
29:32
Speaker 3: people felt that under the benevolent rule of a king
29:35
Speaker 3: who was so very popular, who was revered, loved and
29:38
Speaker 3: adore by the people, they had the.
29:41
Speaker 1: Best and they were not about to give up the
29:44
Speaker 1: best that they had for somebody that, as I said,
29:48
Speaker 1: could perhaps not be different from what they saw.
29:50
Speaker 3: Elsewhere one percent. And he goes on. So they were anxious,
29:55
Speaker 3: but the king prevailed over them, saying that even though
29:58
Speaker 3: the final choice must be theirs. They must realize that
30:01
Speaker 3: the king becomes the leader only by the accident of
30:03
Speaker 3: birth boom boom boom, the accident of birth bens and
30:07
Speaker 3: not by merit or virtue. He's literally pointing out, like
30:10
Speaker 3: to the people under a monarchy, the problems with a
30:14
Speaker 3: monarchy of which he himself is the beneficiary, right, the
30:19
Speaker 3: leader goes on, and that to place the future of
30:22
Speaker 3: a country in the hands of such a person is
30:25
Speaker 3: not in the long term interest of the country.
30:27
Speaker 1: Now, can you give me some raucous applaws?
30:32
Speaker 3: I love that quote. Now, guys, if you want to
30:34
Speaker 3: pick me, you know, as your leader. I mean, I'm
30:36
Speaker 3: not saying this from an opportunistic standpoint. I'm more than
30:39
Speaker 3: willing to serve, just not as your king. You know.
30:43
Speaker 3: That's what he said. Yeah, that's so cool.
30:45
Speaker 1: And as a guy who, as you know, based on
30:48
Speaker 1: my past centuries, I am very anti monarchy, I just
30:53
Speaker 1: want to take a moment and appreciate how wholesomely ridiculous
30:56
Speaker 1: this is. The people are saying they don't want democracy,
31:00
Speaker 1: the king who could make them do that instead does
31:05
Speaker 1: way of open hand, and it's like, hey, just to
31:08
Speaker 1: be honest, I was just born in this position, you
31:12
Speaker 1: know what I mean, technically anybody could have been king.
31:16
Speaker 3: He is a benevolence dictator in a way.
31:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, He's like, we've got to all be part of
31:21
Speaker 1: this experiment for it to work in the long term.
31:24
Speaker 1: It's a topsy turvy situation because historically most kings commit
31:29
Speaker 1: great acts of violence upon their subjects just to maintain
31:33
Speaker 1: their power. And this guy is saying, hey, we're all cool,
31:36
Speaker 1: let's try let's try to make this a long term thing.
31:42
Speaker 1: I mean, Bhutan is certainly not a perfect place by
31:45
Speaker 1: any means. There are great concerns about the treatment of
31:48
Speaker 1: the Nepalese population. But the courage that exhibits in questioning
31:55
Speaker 1: a fundamental assumption of the modern world that money means happiness.
32:00
Speaker 1: We know science proves money does not equate to happiness
32:04
Speaker 1: after a certain threshold of income, but it gains the
32:07
Speaker 1: rest of the world something to think about. And all
32:10
Speaker 1: the conversation is continuing today at the World Economic Forum,
32:14
Speaker 1: at the CFR, at all the you know, the big
32:18
Speaker 1: the big movers and shakers. Internationally, it's it's happening at
32:21
Speaker 1: the United Nations, and we have to wonder, could this
32:26
Speaker 1: only work in a very small, isolated place high in
32:29
Speaker 1: the Himalaya, the so called Kingdom of Heaven, or just
32:33
Speaker 1: maybe could something like gross domestic happiness also make life
32:37
Speaker 1: a little better for all of us schmucks down here
32:40
Speaker 1: off the mountain.
32:41
Speaker 3: You know, Ben, we just had a big election here
32:43
Speaker 3: in this country, and I'm really hoping that they go
32:45
Speaker 3: the gross domestic happiness route. Wouldn't that be cool? I'm
32:49
Speaker 3: I'm choosing to be optimistic about.
32:53
Speaker 1: This, all right, We got a ven diagram. I'm a
32:55
Speaker 1: nihilistic optimist.
32:56
Speaker 3: Okay, cool, you mean in the middle somewhere there we go.
33:01
Speaker 1: So this is a story that we found uplifting. There's
33:04
Speaker 1: much more to the story. We'd like to end it
33:08
Speaker 1: with just some quick tangents in trivia about a country
33:14
Speaker 1: will hopefully get to travel to one day.
33:16
Speaker 3: That's right. In addition to the what is it the
33:20
Speaker 3: Last Changri law, it also has a really cool nickname,
33:24
Speaker 3: the Land of the thunder Dragon boom boom boom boom. Yeah,
33:28
Speaker 3: he say, isn't exactly as menacing as it seems. That
33:31
Speaker 3: it's not a Kaiju size, you know, Godzilla esque creature,
33:37
Speaker 3: and it's.
33:40
Speaker 1: It's like going to a town where they have a
33:42
Speaker 1: mascot that's everywhere. The thunder dragon is in architecture, It's
33:48
Speaker 1: depicted in art. You see it on the nation's flag.
33:52
Speaker 3: Drook is what it's known as colloquially, that's the official name.
33:56
Speaker 3: I believe it's it's actually part of their mythology, not
34:00
Speaker 3: an actual living creature at all. No, it's more like,
34:05
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, it's based on science. Maybe they
34:07
Speaker 3: exist within the lore and the context of their belief system.
34:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're home to a ton of endangered animals too,
34:14
Speaker 1: so this would be a cool place to try to
34:17
Speaker 1: catch a cryptid if you're on board. There are no
34:20
Speaker 1: traffic lights in Bhutad at all. If you go to
34:24
Speaker 1: the current capital, Timpo, then you'll see there is a
34:30
Speaker 1: there's like a decorated stand where traffic police manually direct traffic,
34:36
Speaker 1: similar to North Korea.
34:37
Speaker 3: Like the lollipop men, you know, and in the UK. Yeah,
34:41
Speaker 3: I was about to say, is it just like the
34:42
Speaker 3: honor system ben like as far as zoo goes when
34:45
Speaker 3: and is this a product of maybe they don't have
34:48
Speaker 3: the kind of modern, you know, traffic build up that
34:52
Speaker 3: we see in other parts of the world. It seems yeah,
34:54
Speaker 3: way dangerous, way fewer cars that would makes sense. Yeah.
34:58
Speaker 1: Also the national sport following up on our earlier sports
35:01
Speaker 1: phase is archery. It's not the kind of archery you're
35:05
Speaker 1: thinking about. It's a big deal. If you have the
35:08
Speaker 1: privilege to visit Bhutan. Pretty much any family you meet
35:13
Speaker 1: is going to have a bow and arrow set and
35:16
Speaker 1: they will properly drop everything if you want to go
35:20
Speaker 1: learn archery.
35:21
Speaker 3: How is it different than maybe the Olympic kind of
35:24
Speaker 3: versions of archery that we might be aware of. I
35:26
Speaker 3: know archery is also real big in like Korea. Yeah, yeah,
35:30
Speaker 3: it's in Bhutan.
35:31
Speaker 1: It has a religious significance and social significance. Also, the
35:37
Speaker 1: targets are placed differently than they would be in the Olympics.
35:41
Speaker 1: I still can't believe the cryptid point. I wasn't even
35:45
Speaker 1: thinking about this man until we just started talking about it.
35:49
Speaker 1: With over seventy percent of the land covered by forest.
35:52
Speaker 3: Forested, yeah, way of the same with India. We just
35:54
Speaker 3: did an episode recently and stuff that I want you
35:56
Speaker 3: to know about the cryptids of India, And a big
35:58
Speaker 3: reason for that possibility is how how much impassable you
36:02
Speaker 3: know forest there is and how much opportunity there might
36:05
Speaker 3: be for something to exist kind of under the radar,
36:08
Speaker 3: and it's very similar here in Bhutan.
36:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's also we've heard of carbon neutral countries. Bhuton
36:15
Speaker 1: is a carbon negative country. They make, you know, they
36:19
Speaker 1: make the average amount of CO two that you would expect,
36:23
Speaker 1: but their forest ground captures all of it, so it's
36:30
Speaker 1: actually eating carbon from other parts of the environment. Bhuton
36:35
Speaker 1: is better for better for the global environment.
36:39
Speaker 3: That's because they don't mow down the forests. That's that's
36:42
Speaker 3: a whole part of their philosophy, and they're governing principles
36:46
Speaker 3: to not do that kind of thing and not to
36:48
Speaker 3: prioritize industry over you know, the kinds of things that
36:52
Speaker 3: will hopefully help preventing global catastrophe. They listen to the Lorex, right,
36:59
Speaker 3: I always listen to Lorax.
37:00
Speaker 1: There is one thing I wanted to surprise surprise you
37:05
Speaker 1: guys with which might not be familiar to everyone. Just
37:08
Speaker 1: if you get to chance to travel to Bata and
37:10
Speaker 1: first off, send us photos, we love that. Secondly, you're
37:15
Speaker 1: gonna see a lot of penis artwork.
37:17
Speaker 3: Ah. Still, I'm down with that. There, Yeah, I'm down
37:19
Speaker 3: with that.
37:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, Flanking doorways, hanging off rooftops painted on homes in
37:25
Speaker 1: window displays.
37:26
Speaker 3: You had me at penis artwork. Yeah he didn't. You
37:28
Speaker 3: needn't say no more, Ben, I was.
37:30
Speaker 2: I was on the fence, like all the climbing stuff
37:31
Speaker 2: and then penis artwork.
37:33
Speaker 3: I'm in. You had me a penis BND and you
37:36
Speaker 3: had me a penis. You had me a pen It's
37:40
Speaker 3: I'm in the say no more, say less. It's also
37:44
Speaker 3: highly regulated or illegal to smoke, right, isn't that the thing?
37:49
Speaker 1: It was the first nation in the world to ban
37:52
Speaker 1: tobacco for a while until the pandemic kicked in and
37:56
Speaker 1: a lot of smuggling happened over the border. Uh so
38:00
Speaker 1: now it's tightly controlled.
38:02
Speaker 3: And well, I think that's interesting. I think all of
38:04
Speaker 3: us here ridiculous history aren't the biggest proponents of outright
38:08
Speaker 3: prohibition because we know that it just leads to smuggling.
38:12
Speaker 3: It just leads to black market stuff, which leads to crime.
38:15
Speaker 3: And I just think, so this is to me is
38:17
Speaker 3: a little short sighted. You know, I guess maybe coming
38:20
Speaker 3: from a good place, but it's it's tough. You know,
38:23
Speaker 3: no one we're going to stop their vices just because
38:25
Speaker 3: the government tells them. Max has a cigar that would.
38:28
Speaker 2: Probably the cigar away.
38:29
Speaker 3: I will be very you can prime Max's cigar from
38:32
Speaker 3: his cold dead hand for one CS a year. Okay,
38:37
Speaker 3: wonder you're on record. It's fine, but I have but
38:39
Speaker 3: I just have three in a drawer.
38:42
Speaker 1: It's uh, this is where we learn to that point.
38:47
Speaker 1: Bhuton is definitely a work in progress.
38:50
Speaker 3: Uh.
38:50
Speaker 1: It's been a dream country of mine to visit for
38:53
Speaker 1: many years. It hasn't worked out yet. Visiting Bhuton is
38:57
Speaker 1: quite expensive. Just getting over there is expensive, and if
39:02
Speaker 1: you are American, you have to pay.
39:05
Speaker 3: It used to be two one hundred a day. It
39:08
Speaker 3: used to be higher.
39:08
Speaker 1: Now it's about one hundred dollars a night every twenty
39:11
Speaker 1: four hours just to be there, just to be there
39:15
Speaker 1: as an American, not counting hotel.
39:17
Speaker 3: But is it also affordable though? Like is are the
39:19
Speaker 3: hotel fees? I know a lot of times in Asian
39:22
Speaker 3: countries is expensive to get there, But then the you
39:25
Speaker 3: know the actual cost of staying for a while or
39:27
Speaker 3: not too bad? I hope we find out together. I
39:30
Speaker 3: would like to. Yeah, sounds like a real great idea.
39:32
Speaker 1: The visa is only forty bucks a pop. That's great,
39:35
Speaker 1: that's actually not too crazy, but we will have to
39:39
Speaker 1: I know not all of us are fans of flying
39:41
Speaker 1: or heights. We will have to be ready to fly
39:44
Speaker 1: into one of the world's most difficult airports.
39:47
Speaker 3: Okay, difficult, how like narrow like perhaps some mountain I mean,
39:53
Speaker 3: we know it's mountainous. You probably have to come in
39:55
Speaker 3: for a landing between some crazy peaks.
39:59
Speaker 1: I gotta link here from CNN from our pale little
40:03
Speaker 1: at Marcus where you can see what it looks like.
40:05
Speaker 1: There's one landing airway or runway. There's one takeoff. They're
40:10
Speaker 1: both very short. You called it man, there are this
40:15
Speaker 1: is between two eighteen thousand foot peaks. When you're landing
40:21
Speaker 1: at the very last minute, just to make it in,
40:23
Speaker 1: you have to take this crazy, this crazy turn.
40:26
Speaker 3: Dog leg turn. I'm seeing like I got a gift
40:29
Speaker 3: on the CNN travel site that shows you from the
40:32
Speaker 3: cockpit perspective, and it is serious manure. It's a make
40:36
Speaker 3: your peace with God stuff. It's show jumping here real quick.
40:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just want to say, like you know, as
40:42
Speaker 2: it's been staying on the show, I'm not the biggest
40:43
Speaker 2: fan of flying.
40:44
Speaker 3: I've gotten better about it. I'm also not a fan
40:46
Speaker 3: of heights, but like.
40:48
Speaker 2: This is terrifying, but it's also like super cool that
40:51
Speaker 2: I would do it.
40:52
Speaker 3: And I vote Philip J. Fry. This is a cool
40:55
Speaker 3: way to die. Yeah, that's what.
40:59
Speaker 1: I That's what I say with whomever we're sitting next
41:02
Speaker 1: to in the plane. I'm like, hey, good news. Though,
41:06
Speaker 1: right before we hit the turn and have to grab
41:08
Speaker 1: our beat me here, have to grab our ocean handles,
41:11
Speaker 1: I'd be like, hey, this is a pretty cool way
41:13
Speaker 1: to die.
41:14
Speaker 3: Right. There's a really fun quote the floor the floor.
41:18
Speaker 3: There's a really fun quote the very beginning of this
41:20
Speaker 3: article on Sean and Travel. It said, there's a Buddha
41:22
Speaker 3: in the cockpit. The orange robed icon looks on as
41:25
Speaker 3: the pilot speedily executes a dramatic last minute turn to
41:28
Speaker 3: land the A three nineteen on the slender runway. A
41:32
Speaker 3: dozen passengers, some of whom have spent the last few
41:34
Speaker 3: minutes white knuckling the seat armor res break out into applause.
41:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's fine to clap on that plane because
41:42
Speaker 1: you're also getting flown by a celebrity. In aviation, even
41:46
Speaker 1: now in twenty twenty four, there are only about fifty
41:49
Speaker 1: pilots on the entire planet who are qualified to land
41:53
Speaker 1: or take off from this place, so I would pause it.
41:56
Speaker 1: If you land safely, you have already won ritual approval
42:01
Speaker 1: from the Kingdom of the thunder Dragon.
42:03
Speaker 3: I love it, man, what a fun episode. Ben, Thanks
42:05
Speaker 3: for putting this one together. This is so interesting. I
42:08
Speaker 3: didn't know any of this stuff, and maybe given the
42:10
Speaker 3: slightly uncertain political moment that we're in here in the
42:13
Speaker 3: United States, whatever your political persuasions are, this is not
42:16
Speaker 3: a political show. Stuff like this is comforting. Man. I
42:19
Speaker 3: have to say.
42:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, just to check in, and I am so impressed
42:24
Speaker 1: by his excellency, you know, the sheer balls to say
42:30
Speaker 1: I want what's best for us, and it's so few
42:36
Speaker 1: monarchs ever admit the lottery of birth right.
42:40
Speaker 3: So figure it out.
42:41
Speaker 1: If your friends are happy, if your people are happy.
42:44
Speaker 3: That is such a cool thing to do.
42:46
Speaker 1: And you know what else is a very cool thing
42:49
Speaker 1: tuning into this show ridiculous historians. Thank you so much.
42:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, so cool. Yeah, and a huge thanks again, Ben
42:56
Speaker 3: for putting this brief together. This is a super fun
42:59
Speaker 3: topic and I feel a little bit better after talking
43:03
Speaker 3: about it with you. Oh Man, Bootney's cuisine. We didn't
43:06
Speaker 3: have time to get to it. But buddy, all right,
43:09
Speaker 3: we'll keep where I said, buddy, all right, it's a
43:11
Speaker 3: good way. What are we talking here? Does it have
43:13
Speaker 3: any connections to maybe cuisine i'd be aware of or similarities?
43:17
Speaker 3: Oh geez, you're gonna love it. You're gonna love it.
43:19
Speaker 3: And our pal Matt Frederick will love it too. Do
43:21
Speaker 3: they do curries? What are we talking here? Come on,
43:27
Speaker 3: we've got all right.
43:28
Speaker 1: So Bootney's cuisine is similar in some it's a transit point,
43:33
Speaker 1: right because we've got Indian cuisine coming in. We've got
43:37
Speaker 1: a certain kind of rice with a specifically unique nutty flavor,
43:43
Speaker 1: and it's the only rice that can grow at that
43:45
Speaker 1: elevation in the world. They love red chili's like love love.
43:49
Speaker 3: And it looks like they actually do you know, a
43:51
Speaker 3: little bit different from what Indian cuisine folks might be
43:54
Speaker 3: familiar with. They do noodle dishes as well.
43:56
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, they love a noodle dish. There's also
44:00
Speaker 1: a lot of cheese, which got me back into the game,
44:04
Speaker 1: and that.
44:04
Speaker 3: Is not something you typically associate with with the Asian cuisine.
44:08
Speaker 3: I mean, you do have the delicious panier in Indian cuisine,
44:12
Speaker 3: which I have become a big fan of in recent years.
44:14
Speaker 3: But yeah, okay, I'm sold. Do we have Are there
44:17
Speaker 3: any Botanese restaurants out on Buford Highway here in Atlanta?
44:21
Speaker 1: We're gonna have to get together and figure that one out.
44:23
Speaker 3: On You're out, Ben, You're right.
44:25
Speaker 1: I think you're right too, Noel ed of course, big
44:29
Speaker 1: big thanks to our super producer, mister Max Williams. Big
44:31
Speaker 1: big thanks to his bio bro Alex Williams, our resident composer.
44:37
Speaker 3: Indeed huge thanks to Jonathan Strickland, The Quiz, the aj Bahamas, Jacobs,
44:42
Speaker 3: the Puzzler.
44:44
Speaker 1: Big big thanks to Rachel Big Spinach, Lance, big big
44:47
Speaker 1: thanks to Eves, Jeff Coates and our pale Christopher hasiotis
44:51
Speaker 1: here in spirit. And big big thanks Noel to you
44:54
Speaker 1: and Max for agreeing with me to try to get
44:58
Speaker 1: to BA Todd. We should we should write to accounting
45:01
Speaker 1: now just get a hand of it.
45:03
Speaker 3: That'll be fine with it. We'll see you next time, folks.
45:12
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
45:16
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.