Latest / REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph / REALLY JEWISH S1:E6 - food, with Ben Rebuck
Transcript
- Oliver Spike Joseph: back to Really Jewish, our conversation about what it is to be Jewish. You're back for another listen, welcome back. If you joining us for the first time, bruchim ha'ba'im, welcome. We are Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph. I am religious, rabbi in the UK, Yair is secular, law professor in Israel, and we're talking about big topics that affect the Jewish world. Today, we're talking about food. ⁓ ⁓ Thanks so much for joining us. We talking food, food. Ben, you're phenomenal Jewish person on the circuit with hundreds of thousands ⁓ followers on the various media platforms. I've been reading a bit of your stack as a way to prepare for this interview, which has also been like... Sometimes when things are a bit rough you just need something tasty to make you feel better and then we have something tasty for you today. We're talking about Jewish food. We're talking about what's really Jewish about food and we've got our first guest Really Jewish Ben previously known as vegan Ben a big Instagram star and we're gonna ask him a bit little bit about what's really Jewish about food. meaningful and emotional ⁓ quite pseudo rabbinic, if not rabbinic in the way that I read you and your deep connection both to our community ⁓ to food. You're dad, you've been doing professional food blogging by way of social media for quite a few years now. And ⁓ you'd definitely be there, in a UK context, as one of our lead voices in the Jewish community and So welcome back to our sixth episode. it's almost hug. It's been a crazy time. This feels like a bit of a break from ⁓ like delving into passion of food and memory. Tell us a little bit about a favorite recipe that you have. Jewish influencer on social media. It's lovely to have you Ben. Thanks for being with us. Ben Rebuck: Thank you, it's nice to hear those things back sometimes. I think I downplay a little bit of the impact that I could potentially have and sometimes when you stop you listen and you hear it back, it's quite cool. ⁓ I'm happy to hear that. ⁓ Yair Eldan: Listen, first of all, I'll spare you from the stories about the emotional foods, you know, me and Hadasa my wife have after sirens, you know, have the siren of 11 p.m., you know, we take the kids to bed and then, my God, what, we're taking in hand from the kitchen, but you know, I'll spare you that, mean. ⁓ Oliver Spike Joseph: Yeah, and we're happy to have you here. you want to kick us off with the first question for Ben? Yair Eldan: Sure. Hi Ben. ⁓ thought about, I think, transitions. ⁓ transitions are interesting moments in our lives. I mean, I had transitions with regard to food, Jewish food, especially Pesach. Ben Rebuck: Hi. Oliver Spike Joseph: Emotional eating. Yair Eldan: Yeah, the emotional thing is crazy nowadays, but... You know, for me, mean, Jewish food for me is something, you know, very basic, very home-ish, very in a way. So I would go for my matzah braai. ⁓ eat matzah braai although I rarely eat matzah these days. You know, I'm too old for this. It's... I nowadays I rarely eat matzah at all because it's not good for me. I I'm old enough to from matzah and suddenly I like borscht. I mean, I never ate borscht. ⁓ I like borscht ⁓ I mean, obviously I like the Canadian chicken soup, but I'm doesn't make me feel good, but I mean, the matzah bray is a must. I put the matzah in milk and ⁓ fry with of butter and then put on the egg scramble it. Everybody has his matzah bray, that's my matzah bray. It's great. What is yours? I'm just curious about you. Did you have any transitions either with regard to Pesach food or your identity when you think about it? I mean, they're intertwined Ben Rebuck: Sure, I think the biggest transitional thing that had is that my page and my content and everything I did when I started was all plant-based because at the time I was so for me you you use the term transitional and yet it's very like I went from being plant-based to now not which was a big thing it's something that I talk about quite often it's something that I wrote about Oliver Spike Joseph: So for our people listening for the first time maybe matzah brah is basically like an eggy matzah like an eggy bread but a matzah version pretty staple especially if you have small kids because breakfast is hard during Passover if you're not eating regular cereals, I think my I I have to tell a story first. I have a dentist I go to and Two years running on Passover before Passover. I went to the dentist Ben Rebuck: So I think that transitional moment for me really came around doing that sort of stuff. it important for me to kind of tell people that I had stopped being plant-based for the reasons that I've publicized. I'm not going to go back into them because it's, know, I've talked it a lot and, you know, it's one of those things that it was my personal choice and all of that. But I think, you know, going back to specifically about Jewish food, you I made a very, I guess you would call it an informed, some people might call it misinformed decision. Oliver Spike Joseph: actually the first time it was the second day of Passover and he's like, ⁓ he's a non-Jewish guy, he's like, ⁓ the Jews are coming to me on Passover because they eat matzah and it breaks their teeth. There's something about this cement matzah that breaks their teeth. And then the next year I went back it was two days before Passover this time and he's like, ⁓ the Jews come on Passover, the always breaks their teeth. And I'm like, ⁓ no, hasn't even started Passover yet. It's the stress of the approach of Passover. Ben Rebuck: to really be overt with who I am and what I'm about. think the biggest thing for me with social media, and it does tie back into what I just said about why I, people always say I came out as non-vegan. I think it's a bit of a ridiculous way of saying it, but whatever, it makes it a little bit more of a bigger thing than it was. But for me, I think... Yair Eldan: hahahaha ⁓ Oliver Spike Joseph: That's so stressful, my teeth are literally breaking. So that's my, the craziness of this time of year. For those of us who are scrubbing and preparing for Passover, there's a tradition of spring cleaning it this year, but an intense spring cleaning where you rid your whole house of all of the crumbs. And that's both stressful and for some of us, lot, too much even. to answer your question, my association Passover is... Yair Eldan: That's you're right, that's trizzy. Ben Rebuck: The decision that I made was that social media is littered with people and things and fakeness and you know this one's driving that car and this one's got this much money and this one's house and you know you're always told don't believe everything you see. Like with me my biggest thing has always been about The decision that I made was that social media is littered with people and things and fakeness and you know this one's driving that car and this one's got this much money and this one's house and you know you're always told don't believe everything you see. Like with me my biggest thing has always been about Oliver Spike Joseph: my mom's fried fish, it has to be, because she had this enormous like kind of arm's length, big kind of cast iron pan, and she would fill it up with like, know, 17 bottles of oil once year, and she would fry fish for like almost a day, maybe not a day, but certainly like two, three hours, and she would make fish for the freezer and fish for the festival and fish the neighbor. Ben Rebuck: being transparent and being open and being honest being transparent and being open and being honest to the point where my wife will tell me, why have you told people that? You don't need to tell people these things. I'm like, yeah, but it's something that's going on in my life. It shows that I'm a real person. Yesterday I posted that I had a twinge in my neck. And how annoying is it when you wake up and everything's fine, then all of a sudden you're moving like this and you're rigid. It's just one of those things that, yeah, I am a real person and I suffer from real life things and whatever. And one of the things that, not that I suffer from, Oliver Spike Joseph: And she would always have this very strong association, like the whole house is going to stink, it's going to stink for days. My hair, going to have to bathe three times before I get this smell of fish out. And once a year she would just do this extensive And it amazing. It was like an amazing, really connected memory to the preparation for Passover. And we'd eat fried fish on Pesach. ⁓ Ben Rebuck: But one of the things and the biggest thing about me is I'm Jewish and being Jewish has always been something for me that is incredibly important. It's shaped my childhood my whole life You know life was centered around the like the Chaggim (festivals) and would we be going to Israel to be with family What would we be doing for this one and that one? So, you know as much as I grew up in a Fairly secular thing, you being Jewish was ⁓ always really a huge part of what I wanted do. So Yair Eldan: Listen, I remember when I spent a year in London the Jewish community and I was addicted to it too. ⁓ a secular Jew, I ate a lot of fish balls. don't I mean, Jews ⁓ like fish and I ⁓ have to I love them too. ⁓ Ben Rebuck: on social media it made sense that that would be kind of angle you know ultimately kind of I guess everyone needs a niche what I do isn't necessarily groundbreaking know I make food a lot of people can do it but the thing that they can't do is they can't be me they can't have my lived experiences my unique experiences and you know part of that like I said for me ⁓ is Jewish so actually I think it was about Oliver Spike Joseph: So we had the double double fish balls. We had the fried fish balls and then my mum called it chopped fish balls. They like not raw but they were I guess maybe boiled and they We do have a particularly strong connection to fried fish. So ⁓ without further we're welcoming our guest today, Ben. Ben can be both on his sub stack and on Instagram, Ben Rebuck Ben Rebuck: Four years ago, really went in and actually it was for Pesach (Passover) Pesach is my favourite holiday ⁓ as a Jew and I think a lot of us feel like this, which is, it's funny because, It feels like a foodie holiday, even though there's restrictions. I think you look at the ones where we eat, we don't eat, Rosh Hashanah, there's nice food, Chanukah, there's nice food, but Pesach there's just something about it, there's something about the tradition and the story and the story of Exodus is one of the most stories in all of religion. It feels like a foodie holiday, even though there's restrictions. I think you look at the ones where we eat, we don't eat, Rosh Hashanah, there's nice food, Chanukah, there's nice food, but Pesach there's just something about it, there's something about the tradition and the story and the story of Exodus is one of the most stories in all of religion. ⁓ I the Prince of Egypt, it's ⁓ an story. Oliver Spike Joseph: I recommend both. He's cooking loads of food for Passover at the moment on his Instagram and other social media platforms and his sub stack I found really meaningful to read and we're really grateful to welcome him week to ⁓ Jewish. Yair Eldan: But I am in, did your family actually clean in a very way towards Pesach? Because I a child hated Pesach because I was religious. And ⁓ was I felt that I'm trapped in this crazy OCD chag (festival) that everything was perfect. Listen, it was so great to have this with Ben. Ben Rebuck: I I probably, yeah, I think I probably had an experience which wasn't as like cemented that kind of, you know, orthodox level. think growing up, like we had a kosher home, but it was like kosher to an extent, you know, we, ⁓ bought meat and we, know, we didn't mix milk and meat and things like that. Like we were by definition kosher, but you know, it would be, it would be lax for me. Like growing up, I didn't have to, I don't koshering the home for Pesach Yair Eldan: Right. Mmm. I think ⁓ missed asking Ben about the origins of his recipes, his ⁓ view Jewish food. Where did it come from? Because I feel that ⁓ my my ability to feed my kids, obviously came my mother. My mother was ⁓ my feeder and ⁓ still in a way. Ben Rebuck: I just remember that horrible like multicoloured Pesach cereal that we used to eat I actually liked it So it was always like a nice nice excuse So yeah, so what I was saying was was was the Passover content was the first time about four years ago that actually really opened up about my Jewishness on social media. So it of has I suppose a special feeling for me in terms of ⁓ you how I talk about Judaism because I think it's just it's a story that people know people know about you know, the story Yair Eldan: Right. Food is connected to motherhood in my view. did change when I became older, but I asking Ben this question. What about you, Oliver? Ben Rebuck: of Moses and that works so yeah it's always interested me. Oliver Spike Joseph: No, I think I really enjoyed it. Listen, we're experimenting in a way of really Jewish to like bring a guest use the guest as a text in many ways, because we've been used to up until now bringing a Jewish text and today Ben is our text. And I think I relate to that part. think he is somebody is really focusing his life around love of food and there's something about food in our Jewish tradition. let's go straight there. I think one of the striking things of sub stack was you mentioning like a final comma where you say, showing up, feeding each other, making space. That's how we endure. There's something about Jews taking up space, which you're like really focused in on. And it's nice to hear where that transition happened, that four years moment. which is core, which transcends boundaries. know, like we're talking in the interview about some of the boundaries between the religious community, the secular community, and different kind of graduations of that. Something about food which transcends some of those community divisions and even transcends boundaries. You know, he was talking about a woman in the store buying ground almonds and how there's something that he loves of sharing content online. around Passover. Passover for me is all about identity, is about reclaiming our identity and reanalyzing and understanding what the identity is that we're coalescing around, that we're centered around. So let's go there. Tell us one of your favorite recipes for Passover or a favorite memory. you're gonna have to read in the sub stack or online what the actual tell us a little bit about the association with Passover food. where people are cooking his dishes at many tables across the world. there's something quite wonderful about that, because especially in these times when I don't think life is easy for many Jewish communities around the world, about that love of food, which is just nourishing and enriching and really, connects us, like you say, both to family, to mother, to parents, but to each other. Ben Rebuck: aside from that multicoloured Fruit style cereal, think, I ⁓ mean, ⁓ Oliver Spike Joseph: Disgusting I have to for the record. I just have to say disgusting. They're all disgusting Ben Rebuck: I think it's corn. It's ⁓ like a corn syrupy cereal. Yeah. Not I think growing up, I loved Charoset. Charoset was one of the things that I really looked forward to. We'd be at either of my grandmas. I had a grandma who lived in Israel and a grandma who lived in London. It was at someone's, someone was involved with it. It wouldn't necessarily be my grandma who had hosted, but she would always bring a lot of the food. She'd bring her chicken soup. She'd probably make the Charoset whenever. And I loved it. was, you ⁓ Oliver Spike Joseph: Nothing good. Yair Eldan: Yeah, but I mean, when you think about it, think why is there, there is a fuss about Jewish food. mean, Jews are obsessed with food. Everybody is obsessed, but Jews especially in a way. and I think it's connected to the fact that we were Jews at home. felt... Ben Rebuck: It was the sweetness of the table with the bitterness and all that other stuff. So I always liked that kind of balance and the Hillel sandwich, you know, we did it in this country. It was matzah, Charoset and the horseradish. think it's been interesting this year having done a whole series on Pesach again, everyone saying, oh, well, you for Charoset, we do it this way for a chazeret. We don't use this. We use that. You're actually you've done this wrong. The maror is this and that we don't use parsley. We use celery. And it's like we're we're ridiculous. We're a ridiculous group. Yair Eldan: that we can be ourselves only at home. ⁓ food is connected with home. So it a very big part of home. So I think that's why food became such a big thing for us. And ⁓ when think about it, in Israel, ⁓ where could be fully Jewish, and I think still, still, it's crazy to say that, but in 2026, the only place that you can feel totally, know, utterly Ben Rebuck: group of people can't agree on anything. you know ⁓ two Jews stuck on a desert island and they build the two synagogues so they say I'm not gonna go to that one. I my Jewish reviews at the end of every episode I say two Jews three opinions I've given you mine so ⁓ but my favorite part of the food that actually answers your question is this kosher for Passover tort that I made a few years ago and it's become probably of my most recreated videos. Yair Eldan: Everywhere you go is Israel only place in the world and so maybe something about that is Shifting in a way because you know food is you know becoming something different. It's It's not I mean, not the same ⁓ as before the Jewish state Oliver Spike Joseph: Yeah, there is something about the cultural spread. There's something, know, Jewish food being fashionable, being trending, you know, on social media. I always of this, you know, when we talk, having this conversation about Jewish food, Natalie and I kind have, my wife and I have like a little chuckle at Christmas because there's often a thing like around online and in the newspapers and in a cultural way of Ben Rebuck: much so that I had a message from someone the year before last. It's been out ⁓ I've I normally repost it every every Pesach because it's nice to remind people I haven't done this year because I focus on something different But people are still messaging me being like I'm making the tort where everyone loves the tort ⁓ But had a message a couple of years ago from a woman who said that the base of the tort is ground almonds So she messaged me saying I've got to tell you a funny story. I'm in the supermarket I'm looking up and down in the baking aisle. We're looking for ground almonds Yair Eldan: Mmm. Oliver Spike Joseph: Lots of people getting really stressed about Christmas because there's like 12 people coming to the the Christmas table and there's loads of courses to cook. And Natalie always says, ⁓ what are talking about? Shabbat. Like we do this every single week, you know, put on three or four courses and like have, you know, 10 or 15 or sometimes even 20 or 30 people. And ⁓ in a context, it's very, very normal. And there's something about in other parts of the world, this is not, you know, true to all Ben Rebuck: I'm looking and there's another woman there she's looking for ground almonds and there's another woman there looking for ground almonds and one says And it sounds like it sounds like a quick but I have the message and she says you know Are you making Ben's tort and they're all making the kosher for Passover tort so for me doing something like that, which is Literally transcended borders and has been a part, you know It's a real special feeling for me that there are Seder tables where Yair Eldan: Ahahaha! ⁓ Ben Rebuck: my name is being brought up in a way that's like this is this guy that I follow on social media he does really cool Jewish stuff he developed this recipe we're making it we're trying it and knowing that kind of at the same time around the world a lot of people are eating something that I've kind of done like it's just it's a it's a nice feeling to kind of I guess be a part of of people's of people's say the nights feels it does actually feel quite special so that has to be of course my all-time favorite Pesach recipe. Oliver Spike Joseph: but in other parts of the world, just the aspect of putting on a big spread is somehow complicated. something of, ⁓ this time of year also, there's, there is, at time of year I find that I need to remind myself to breathe. Because in our house, we're better at it, know, 10 years into our relationship almost, but it can be very stressful. trying to organise around Pesach now, three kids at home, both of us working. It can be incredibly stressful. I think I also wanted to get into the conversation about of that division between our religious lives and our secular lives. Yair Eldan: great to talk food. Food is such fun, right? Food is fun. Oliver Spike Joseph: because I find it tremendously important and significant in my life that on Pesach, tochel matzot, that you're gonna eat, that I'm gonna eat matzah. on, know, on Seder night I'm gonna put three pieces of matzah on the table and say the bracha (the blessing) over that matzah, and that that eating of the matzah is be meaningful, ⁓ and all of the other food culture and food items surround ⁓ that kind of moment of making hamozzi, making the bracha on It's important at the moment also talk about food, Ben. led emotionally by this podcast and to try and both stay in the Jewish journey that we're both in, also ⁓ in some way or other respond to the world outside. And there's very joyful about food, even in these of equal importance and in many ways of equal weight and maybe even more weight at Passover is the cleaning of the house. Is sh'lo yiru col Seor. You're not going to eat (or see!) any Seor or Chomet, any of the forbidden Passover items, the five grains, what we call Chomets in house. That's also the no stuff, the things that we don't eat. But I think you, Yair, see... quite difficult time, certainly in Israel and here. There's something joyful about talking about food and being in food and having moments where we eat nice things, which take us out of some of the toughness. Yair Eldan: Okay, so I'll be the downer. Obviously Jewish food about, the Jewish mother, ⁓ the representation of home, something very ⁓ very satisfying. Oliver Spike Joseph: things quite differently and already in the interview with Ben, kind of waving your flag of protest, this is too much, this is too stressful and you have negative connotations with the Passover cleaning. Yair Eldan: Definitely. I I the no stuff. From core of my identity, I hate the no stuff. I'm a yes person, but... But I wanted to take you on something else that I think characterized Jewish food, which is the separation it enforces on us. mean, in Israel, between secular and my parents can't come to my house and eat and Pesach. And Pesach, my house is closed for them because they keep kosher. And ⁓ what your take ⁓ on I ⁓ Yeah, I do ⁓ to what you said about ⁓ Seder and Passover regard identity, the questions, and what Ben said ⁓ I think very, I thought ⁓ very true that he is, about Jewish identity ⁓ and his connection to Masorti movement is about exploring, is about critical thinking, is about examining. I mean, food is supposed to be connecting people, Jewish food in a very weird way is actually separating them. Ben Rebuck: Listen, I think, you know, I understand I have a lot of like friends and people that I know who are strict kosher and I understand why they do it. You know, it feels for them like it brings them closer to Hashem and I don't disregard their beliefs at all. It's not something that I think is necessarily up with the modern world that we live in. ⁓ think it's probably quite difficult now. I see a lot of these people when they're traveling. Yair Eldan: Jewish identity and I relate to that as well and when I think about Passover I always I mean I relate to you there is something about freedom there is something about freedom of thought about liberation obviously also about ⁓ you know also you know the feeling that the whole 'dor va'dor' ⁓ 'sheh kamim aleiynu le'chaloteinu' I ⁓ I find it could be Ben Rebuck: You know, there's one kosher restaurant here. There's two things there. And, maybe some people will eat vegetarian restaurants, but a lot of them won't. They won't even go into a restaurant order vegetarian. They just, you know, and, and, and, and I experienced something similar when I was plant based going to places like Spain, where actually you asked for something that's vegan and they say, ⁓ we have the chicken because the chicken's not meat. You know, it's something else. And, know, I've experienced what it's like to, to, be abroad Oliver Spike Joseph: Translate. Yair Eldan: You know that every generation Jews are being to be threatened by people who want to kill them and I mean find that you know part of identity which is problematic I mean because it ⁓ makes close, makes be suspicious about other human beings. It's true, I say it's true, history says that but... Ben Rebuck: particularly in these moments, like you say, that bring you pleasure, holidays and traveling and, you know, spending time with family and the things that bring you pleasure. You know, I'd be on holiday eating bread and tomatoes and salad when people are enjoying, you know, roasted this and fresh fish. And, you know, I got to the point where actually it started, it started to bother me. So yeah, look, but ultimately. Yair Eldan: but still I'm not sure I would put an emphasis about that. So, but I just want to say another thing about the Seder, which relates to what you said, you know, about being with family. And I think what happened to us in the last few years, you know, with Corona the wars in Israel in October 7th, Yeah. Ben Rebuck: If people want to keep kosher, know, I fully respect their decision because it's something that they believe the will of Hashem and you that's it's choice. I will never disregard someone for it. It's a shame in the instance that you said that you can't share those special moments. ⁓ I the same, honestly, sometimes there's things that my wife doesn't eat that I eat and I'm like, I'd love for you to try it. And she was like, I'm not going to try it. And it's the same feeling like food for me is my love language. Like if I make something like try it, like I want to give you a spoon. Yair Eldan: really forced to make a small Seder And I love it. not everybody come, not everybody could actually share the same table. And I have admit, I love it. And I think there is something to it that is related to the biblical And there is a very nice article I read by Yitzchak Brand, which says that there is a transition from biblical Right. Ben Rebuck: of the beginning of the source and the end of the source and I want to talk you through what I've done and how I'm going to make it a little bit better if you said that I actually don't like it right now and whatever. you know it's the same thing she won't eat things that I make because she doesn't like certain things and you know so I guess I know that feeling I think we all probably experienced that so yeah yeah Yair Eldan: times to rabbinic times from is being transferred from the family ⁓ to to the to you can you can yeah it's it's it's bigger he's he's he's writing about the ⁓ about the but it's I mean you can actually say the same about the said there is itself so I think there is something about a small center which is ⁓ I Oliver Spike Joseph: community. So I'll take us to a slightly different area. are running up to Pesach. It's a festival of identity. You're a strongly identified Jewish person online. You've made this transition from vegan Ben to Ben. You're now reviewing both restaurants which kosher and also restaurants which are not kosher. Tell us a little about what it has been like. You know, you're our first guest, you're our UK guest. Yair Eldan: wonderful. It's intimate. It's, you know, you get closer and it actually in a way makes you more Jewish. Oliver Spike Joseph: So tell us two words about small Seder in your house because I like this image. We're also having one very small Seder this year. Tell us. Yair Eldan: So it's gonna be me and ⁓ Hadassah and four of my six kids. Oliver Spike Joseph: What's it like to be Jewish in the UK right now? What's it like to be Jewish online at the moment? Tell us a bit about the last couple of years for you. Yair Eldan: because I have one daughter which is in Sydney. going to move to London. She can't go back to Israel because there are no flights. My older son is going to be with his mother and soldier is going to take a break and come to Seder with my parents. So we're going to be... ⁓ And also younger brother is going to be there. So it's going to be intimate. Not all the hamula, not all the wider... Ben Rebuck: Yeah, I think I would be lying if I said it's been an easy thing for me to do. I think I take a lot of it at face value that, you know, I heard someone say once that the angry dog barks the loudest and it's always sort of resonated with me that, you know, people who are angry are going to shout about it. But I've never experienced, despite the amount of antisemitism I get online on a daily basis, you know, when my videos do well, I mean, it's an hourly basis. Yair Eldan: family and we can have a very intimate conversation about the issues about life it's wonderful what about you how is yours that are gonna be Ben Rebuck: if not minute by minute basis, it's intense. But never in my life has someone come up to me in the street and be like, I follow you, you're a Jew, I hate you, whatever. It's just, it's idiots on the internet and I take them as that. I don't value their opinion, I don't hold their opinion as anything worth to or accepting. you know, sadly, ⁓ ⁓ like whatever people want to conflate it as, has become a norm in society again. That being said, in the UK, yes, I think there's some problems, but I also think ⁓ Oliver Spike Joseph: No, it's interesting. I have to say that I struggle at this time of year because complicated to negotiate family. It's complicated to find the right balance. I think it's an ⁓ description of how Passover has changed. I think a lot of people did very, very big meals back in the pre-corona days. And now used to doing smaller things. We are a big Ben Rebuck: they're easy avoid. I don't live in London anymore. I've moved out to Hertfordshire and I live in a heavily area ⁓ and don't feel it. I go to my local high street and there's two kosher a kosher butcher, ⁓ a kosher There's things here that even though again, don't keep kosher, I'm surrounded by people who... ⁓ Oliver Spike Joseph: Passover said it with my wife's cousins on the first night, is our tradition, and which is lovely, but chaotic and mad and loads of people and kids running around screaming, climbing the walls. We have some of the cousins from America come in that our kids adore, and that's like wonderful to see. And then on the second night, it's me and my dad, my dad's partner and her sister. Ben Rebuck: have similar values to me and I think as a community we've always done that, we've always kind of stuck together, we've lived close by to one another and for me it's always felt a little bit easier. When I go into London, when I go into town, I do feel there's this air of something looming I've felt that for years and I don't think it's just about Jews, I think it's a whole cultural shift in this country that's happening and you know... Oliver Spike Joseph: And it's small and it will be nice and I think there is something of a quality of being together in that small space. yet, ⁓ have to admit that I also struggle that I feel the need towards like bringing everyone and having another chaotic and mental on the second night. Although where you are, Yair, you only have one because it's one night of Chag. So this is... Ben Rebuck: I don't know what's going to happen in the next five years. It's, you know, look at reform you worry that these people are using our name to say, ⁓ we're friends of the Jews. But, you know, I know that they just hate us less than they hate everyone else at the minute. And, ⁓ you know, I don't I don't appreciate being used as a ⁓ like a tool to try and bring people board. So ⁓ it's very difficult. Like I said, I don't a lot of Oliver Spike Joseph: the differential between, I have to say when I lived in Israel for five years, I always missed second night hug because it's something that I grew up with. So I was always used to having a do-over. You have one and then you do something different the second night. Yair Eldan: I mean, have to wrap it up, but I want to ask you, how do cope with a second Seder really? That's crazy. mean, how do you do it? How do you actually manage to reframe it in to actually survive it? Ben Rebuck: it in the... ⁓ outside world. media is always going to be a place for people to hide behind screens and do and say whatever they want. And, I think part it is good for people. think there's a freedom of speech and, that ability to be able to do and say what you feel is there's a part of it, which I agree But obviously, when it leads to rampant anti-Semitism and hatred about particularly when I'm talking about food, you know, I do a series where it's Jewish fusion food. So, you know, I'll mix Oliver Spike Joseph: So listen, I love Passover. I really do. I love the story. I love the traditions. You know, as somebody who without my mum for the last 20 years, it's a time when I feel very intimate with like family in that way. And with her, there's like a way that when you sit down at the Passover table that you are, you know, literally ⁓ said, from generation, you're like sitting in the of all of those, all of those ⁓ Passover seders past years. Ben Rebuck: something that I consider to be Jewish with something that I consider not to be so like a shawarma bao bun or like a schnitzel in like a banh mi sandwich and people will comment me like schnitzel is not Jewish banh mi is not Jewish you're stealing things you're colonizing this I'm like it's fusion if I made an Italian like sushi like no one would care like people care about Jews so much more than they care like we're held to such a ridiculously high standard ⁓ on internet but Oliver Spike Joseph: There's something very special about it, the kind of memories flood back. I remember my uncle playing tricks on us at the cup of Elijah, one of the fifth cup that sits in the middle of the table was actually being drunk by Elijah at the table and the wine was going down. And I never asked him how he did it, but there was this trick that he did that somehow the cup drained, or that's the image that I have, that there's some magic trick that was being played at the table. All of these things come flooding back. How do I do a second sader? Ben Rebuck: But know what, like, truthfully, like I know that and I play into it and I do this series because it... Oliver Spike Joseph: It's part of my DNA of that's what I'm used to and that's what I love. And the second seder always has a slightly different feel to it. And I love the songs and I love the music. And the years, I feel like I've grown into it even and more. Ben Rebuck: rages people and it's good for my engagement and I'm talking about things that I want to talk about and all the voiceovers of these videos are You know a real sort of F you to the to the haters because I'm saying like yeah I know what you're gonna say and I don't care but schnitzel is Jewish and I'm gonna tell you why it's Jewish and if you don't like it can you can you can do one basically, so it works well for me, and I'm fun. So Yeah, no issues for me with that stuff Yair Eldan: I think last thought is thinking about separation inclusion. And Ben left us a sense of inclusion. mean, food as... Oliver Spike Joseph: Yeah, I hear. Yair Eldan: And Ben, what about ⁓ the inside Jewish community? I was so interesting to hear about your, how do cope with the environment? But what about the... as a connection between people and I went to a different vector of seeing food and Jewish food in particular as separating people. So I think, I'm going to be hopeful and go through thinking about food as a connector and not a separator between individuals. you know, the connection between the Orthodox reform and conservative Judaism in, or Jewry in, in England. I'm not aware, I mean, as an Israeli, I don't know a lot about it, but how do we actually, you know, maneuver between these two ⁓ currents, or three currents, inside Jewish community? Ben Rebuck: Yeah, it's, older I get, the more I realise like every Jewish community does their own thing and it ⁓ sense to them and people. I to a Masorti synagogue ⁓ and amount of people when I say I go to Masorti, they're like, I don't know what you're talking about, but I've always gone to a Masorti synagogue. So I'm like, what do mean you don't know what I'm talking about? So there's that, you know, there's that whole, we make things difficult for ourselves. ⁓ We things between the Ashkenazis, the Sephardic, the Mizrahi. Oliver Spike Joseph: So my final thought is that we had a rabbis meeting last week and there was a bit of a tussle between a couple of the rabbis and Rabbi Joel, one of my teachers, Rabbi Joel Levy said Passover is about identity. It has to be about identity, not about Tshuvah not about Aveirah not about repentance or sin. has to be about identity. Something here we've kind of come together on. Ben Rebuck: like, you know, the Beta Israel (Ehopian Jewish community), you know, whoever it is, we do things differently and it's confusing for us. But, you know, I don't necessarily feel like I have to navigate it per se. I think know where I kind of sit on the spectrum, I guess. You know, I've we actually did go to an Orthodox synagogue originally, not ultra-Orthodox, but like it was Norris Lea, which is quite Orthodox. then ⁓ moved to Masorti because there was more of a family feel. There was, you know, Oliver Spike Joseph: that food is a very strong part of identity. I think ⁓ back up what you said, mean, food can be a divider. There's ways in which that we sit the table in the Jewish community. Often it's not the same table because we have different relationships with Kashrut and how we, of kosher of Jewish eating. But there's a possibility here. And actually the overriding possibility is that actually amongst all of our food customs and food culture and shared recipes, Ben Rebuck: we could kind of sit together a little bit and you know there were different services run by different people and think it came from a more like a of like ⁓ secular I think Masorti is quite like thought provoking Judaism. think there's a lot of like you know... Oliver Spike Joseph: that there's more, it's cliche, there's more that unites us than divides us. And maybe that's part of a thought to leave us with for Passover as we sit down at that table for seder on Wednesday night across the world, you the most observed custom of our current peoplehood, that what we share is all of these dishes. Ben Rebuck: yes, this is how we're supposed to do it, but we think maybe we can do things differently and see how people like it. And I've always quite liked that. The synagogue I grew up with had a great rabbi, Rabbi Jonathan Wittenberg, who I think is still a lot of the ⁓ high up in Masorti. And actually now the rabbi that I have ⁓ a member of still a Masorti synagogue in St. Albans, Rabbi Adam, ⁓ I remember how to pronounce his surname. ⁓ Yair Eldan: Promise me that we are going to do a chapter on kashrut. That's a must. ⁓ We'll speak about that. Sure. Oliver Spike Joseph: Yalla, yalla, yalla. It's gonna happen. Listen, to everybody listening, thank you for support. Please drop us a listen, a like. It gives me the opportunity to thank Oy Va Voy for our musical intro and our outro. Listen to their single, Back to My Roots, available on all streaming platforms. Thanks for being with us. Please share this episode with friends. Zagoria-Moffet Offet Ben Rebuck: That's the one, know, an amazing, person and the way that he speaks and the way that he delivers Parshas. was ⁓ at service a few months ago and it was ⁓ a Bar Mitzvah of a 13 year old boy who was Mario obsessed, loved Super Mario, was wearing like a Super Mario tie and you the dad was clearly a big gamer and the rabbi the whole Parshah and talked about how actually Oliver Spike Joseph: Thank Ben and send him loving and kind comments on the occasion of this episode. Join our team if you want to come and help us create this Really Jewish podcast ⁓ and course support us on our Patreon account. Join us next week for more Really Jewish. We're going to launch on the same day next week on Monday. Join us again Really Jewish with Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph. Chag sameach. Ben Rebuck: the sermon of that week had similarities to the Super Mario film. And to go above and beyond, whereas like people, I saw a few people look around being like, what the hell was this guy talking about? No idea. But I could see like. the way that the kid's face had lit up and the way that Adam's face had lit up, like he had clearly, I mean, I think he's a bit of a nerd as well, so it was great for him, but the way that he was able to bring something that brought joy to the B'mitzvah boy, like he will never forget, that kid will never forget that ⁓ went above and beyond. I think that's an amazing thing that he can do. ⁓ it's something that I genuinely, I don't think we'll ever forget either. And I don't even care about Mario. ⁓ think Judaism is something that... inherently I've always had, it's always been a part of me but I had to find it in the space that worked for me that's what I like to tell people as well that... you're a Jew, whether or not you like it, you do a DNA test, it will tell you that you're a Jew and you can't really run from that. But you can be as Jewish or as non-Jewish as you want to be. You want to keep kosher, you want to go to yeshiva, you can do it and you're allowed to do it. If you want to have a bacon sandwich on challah or on Shabbat, you can do it as well. Like nothing's necessarily going to make you more or less Jewish. And think that's why when I'm talking about these things on social media, like I come from a place of what to me feels like authority for level of Judaism, so to speak. I'm coming from a place that I understand if you want to be at the top and I understand if you want to be at the bottom, but I don't treat you as the top and I don't treat you as the bottom. I treat you as all the same. you know, I'll eat food in your kosher restaurants, but I will also post a recipe where I'm cooking non-kosher food and I will mix milk and meat because I don't keep kosher. So it doesn't bother me. If it bothers you, it's kind of your problem. yeah, there's ways to navigate it. But, you know, for me, it's just always been about doing what is genuine to you. and the rest all kind of falls into place. Oliver Spike Joseph: we're going to wrap up. ⁓ ⁓ sure, busy time in the run up to Pesach. We've been following your Pesach-themed content up until today. ⁓ forward to the next slot. Just part this podcast is that you and I are both dads at different stages in parenting. Tell us about being a dad, how that's changed you, and maybe leave us with a note of hope as we transition into Passover. Ben Rebuck: Yeah, I think being a dad has been, it's been a real shift in my... I guess the way that I see other things, the biggest kind of experience that I've really noticed it, I know it sounds a little bit trivial, there's a TV show called Euphoria, and something that my wife and I watched actually before we got married, and it's about teenagers in America, in like this generation now, and it's all about drugs, and it's all about sex, and it's all about all these they do crazy things, and like this one gets killed, and like whatever, like it's a crazy, like it's a drama, but like it's sort of real life, how they use social media and all the sort of bleak that they have now. and we loved that show and before we got married it was great and actually there was a song for there that my wife ended up walking down the aisle to it was great we rewatched it about two months ago and I was horrified watching it I was like I can't believe know my daughter's two and a half now my son's six months old and I'm watching this I'm like they're in for all of this so soon and ⁓ just I didn't enjoy it I mean it's a great show but I just didn't enjoy it in the same way that I did a few years ago so it definitely has shifted my perception of I see like the bigger picture and obviously like I'm worried about the future ⁓ children but you know ⁓ the flip side being a dad has been the most amazing thing you know having these little things that kind of just look at you with, you they don't know anything yet. You know, I'm lucky that they're still quite young. Like they don't know about the world and they don't know what's going on or anything. you know, all they, all they want to do is sort of shower you with love and affection. And as someone who, who, who thrives off that, for me it's, yeah, it's amazing. The last thing was the hope about Pesach you said. Oliver Spike Joseph: Yeah, just if you wanted to share your message for Passover or one message of hope before we go, that would be lovely. Ben Rebuck: Thank I always think if you want to feel amazing in and around Seder Passover, you have to watch The Prince of Egypt because it's the most amazing film with the most amazing music. And it always brings me such like, ⁓ know, there's so many people who haven't seen it and I'm like, how can you not have seen ⁓ It's an incredible film. So that's my hope. My hope is watch that film and listen, because I think it tells the story of the Seder the story of Exodus in such an amazing way that... Yes, you can do it and you can talk about it on Seder Night, to watch it and to hear the songs and the music, they've got Ofra Haza that's my My hope is that ⁓ the story of Exodus and the story of the Israelites is one of you know, it's always I think a few years ago, was the story of Pesach was, you know, let my people go, which felt very for a number of years. Now that you can see it could be 40 years of wondering ⁓ and, you know, not knowing what's next, but, you know, as people we always Yeah, think Seder, Passover the whole thing reminds us that it's bitterness, it's sweetness, it's resilience, it's new beginnings, it's everything. So it's real life lessons. So yeah, I love the story always. Oliver Spike Joseph: Ben, thank you so much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure. Our honor to host you. Thank you. Yair Eldan: Thank you so much. Ben Rebuck: My pleasure, thanks for having me and Chag samayach guys. Yair Eldan: you very much.