Latest / FROM THE INSIDE OUT by BETH ARNOLD / INTERVIEW WITH MARIANNE THORNE: AMERICANS DON'T KNOW SH*T ABOUT SOCIALISM

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INTERVIEW WITH MARIANNE THORNE: AMERICANS DON'T KNOW SH*T ABOUT SOCIALISM · FROM THE INSIDE OUT by BETH ARNOLD

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, this is Beth Arnold from The Inside Out, and I am interviewing.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to be interviewing Marianne Thorne, a Danish author with a degree in economics and a long career in finance, consulting, investments, and real estate.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: And she wrote that fabulous piece that I have posted on my Substack, which I was so happy to do.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: Marianne has written the piece I'm talking about, a clear-eyed and provocative piece about what Americans get wrong when they call Denmark socialist and what it means to live in a country where illness, unemployment, raising children, and growing owl do not carry the constant fear of financial ruin that we do.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: Marianne, I'm so pleased to have you here.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: We Americans need to understand what we're talking about and not let the powers that be scare us with a boogeyman, because that is exactly how this issue is used in this country, especially now as Trump and his GOP flails to the run-up to the midterm elections.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so happy you're here.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, and thank you for having me.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, anyway, so exciting.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so here's here are some questions.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: For Americans who don't know your work yet, how would you introduce yourself and what made you want to write this piece?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um first of all, my name is Mary Anthone, as you said, and uh I live in a suburb to Copenhagen.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, and I've been living in Denmark my whole life.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I am Danish.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm an economist, as you said, and uh I have home had my own business for more than 20 years now.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you can still live in at the a country with a welfare state and pay taxes and have your own company and still survive.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I wrote the piece uh because I read an essay from Jonathan Cohn where he said, I have to say it correctly, it was um how Maca fell in love fell in love uh with a tiny nation, a tiny socialist nation, uh as long as it's just about vaccine recommendations.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just like but it it has nothing to do with it.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, because uh you cannot compare it because in Denmark we have um we have our uh um what do you call healthcare system where where you where you are um you get followed and you get uh treatment from your baby, you get followed when you're pregnant.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you can just not say uh it's about vaccinations, but you cannot say either that uh this is because it's socialist, because we are not socialists.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Denmark has never been a socialist country, never.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that word and others like it have been used as clubs for Americans, you know, when the wealthy and powerful, the GOP now particularly, and some uh Democrats as well, who are more conservative, want to scare people away.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, it's like they they give out wrong information and act like it's a bad thing when it's really great.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: It is because it gives you it gives you some kind of uh peace.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you're not afraid, you're not afraid all the time.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh that's what um also when when I hear and Danish people here Americans say socialist, it it's uh what you call it the skintingly, uh and it's mocking.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it it's not in a nice way.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh and it's even worse because we are not a socialist country.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Not even China is a socialist country.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: They claim to be a socialist country, but they have more than 800 billionaires.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: There's actually no socialist country in the world.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: People really do not understand this terminology at all.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: And when it's used as uh propaganda, you know, when it's used as propaganda instead of uh with facts, it really becomes difficult to overcome that narrative that we have heard so long.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: Also because it's like a curse.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: You say it like it's a curse.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I have you know, I think people really have to get educated about this, and it's so hard, especially now with the misinformation that Americans hear constantly from Trump and all his lackeys.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's constant misinformation, so it's it's very difficult to overcome that narrative.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: But but let me ask you um, so let me ask you the next question.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Your your title says Americans behave like a bull in a china shop when they call Denmark socialist.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: What do you mean by that?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: And what are Americans getting wrong when they call Denmark socialist?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh I had expected some negative comments when I wrote the piece because you know you use the word like a curse.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: But but what has surprised me most was also I got more friendly response than negative response.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: But but even the friendly ones misunderstood.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because they said, oh, but but it's nice to be socialist.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's nice, we want to be socialist like you.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, yeah, but that's the point.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: You have the essay actually says we're not a socialist country.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so so both sides get it wrong.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and even Bernie Sanders got it wrong.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: I remember once uh our our former prime minister, Lars Luke Erasmussen, he was uh visiting Harvard, I think, in 2015.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: And he told Bernie Sanders that we are not a socialist country.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we are a country with a market economy and a welfare state.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's not the same thing as a socialist country at all.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we have huge companies, you know Novo in US in the states, you know Novo who produce, you know, the weight loss uh drug.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, and and we have Mask, the big shipping company, and we have DSV, the big transportation company.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: We have a royal family.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, no socialist country in the world has a royal family.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: And you have Lego, don't you?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: Don't you have Lego?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, we do have Lego also, yeah.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's prep Lego is even family-owned.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a share company, it's a family-owned.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: My my grandson is a constant Lego builder.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: He he loves Legos, so we have Legos everywhere.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh I think a lot of boys do.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: But but but so it's it has nothing to do with socialism.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: It it's um it's actually quite sad, I think, that that there is such a misunderstanding about it because it's uh it's a way to build your society.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually a structure.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: A structure of society and a view of uh human beings and how to live.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: It has nothing to do with socialism at all.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: When I read more about Denmark when you and I were going to talk, I I just thought, uh, yeah, that's where I want to live.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the point of, you know, and what Bernie has worked on for all these years, he may have gotten the term wrong, but he's he's everything he wants is the right thing, you know.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah it's it's the it's the things that you all do that we don't that is um so horrible for the American people.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: And Trump just in the last day or so has uh Medicaid, I mean Medicare uh had lower prices for drugs for people for two years, and he's taking that away.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's constant.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: There, you know, people can't afford medications, they can't go to the hospital.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: I had a friend who went to the emergency room and the bill was sixteen thousand dollars.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: That that's yeah, unbelievable.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: How could anybody unless you're you know very wealthy, how could you possibly pay sixteen thousand dollars for an emergency?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: And especially when w when you're sick.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh my my father got uh cancer a few years ago and uh he was diagnosed as you are, he was treated, he got chemotherapy uh for a long period of time.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: He is now uh well.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Luckily, he gets now he goes to checkups every six months.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: He didn't pay one krone, nothing.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: He just got his treatment and even his medication.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you get subsidies for your medication in Denmark.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh up till one thousand one hundred, that's about one hundred and fifty dollars, I think.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: And after one thousand and uh one one hundred and fifty dollars, you there's some steps until I think it's about four thousand five hundred, that's about six hundred and fifty dollars in a year.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: After that, you're not paying anything, then you'll get subsidies from the state.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, this I I can only imagine how well, in fact, I lived in France for 10 years.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I we France has the best healthcare system in the world, and it was amazing to go to the doctor there and get the treatment that you got.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, in the urgence, come to your apartment in Paris if you're sick.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you need them.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: And and doctors gave me their cell phone numbers.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it was truly such a different experience.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, people don't this is one of the biggest fears that Americans have is their health care.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so many, because of Trump's big, beautiful bill, have lost their health care.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: They cannot afford to have it.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: Now, how does that help us as a nation?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't help anyone to have a sick population.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and it doesn't even it doesn't even help uh the companies because the companies um they have sick uh employees.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: If you are if you are a low-rate uh employee employee, then you don't have insurance.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you work at I this I don't know.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just guessing.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: If you work at Amazon on the lowest level, or if you are a cleaner or something, do you have health care?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know because what I read about Amazon workers is they have to be on food stamps because they don't make enough money to buy food that they don't have.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember what else.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: But so I doubt that they have health care, but I really don't know.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: But it's it's not good.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's also what I what I re uh read in the uh wrote in the piece.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's how free are you if you have to have two jobs and you cannot even give your child Medicare or medical treatment or or an education.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: What's freedom is then that?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I love that.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: What is freedom?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's a such a great question.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what you know, Americans have been terrifically I mean, they've been fed their staff for so long.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna I don't know what it's gonna take to get this out of their heads that that is bad.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: When we lived in France, Obama was president and we were Obama was trying to get Obamacare passed.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Which was a great thing.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: It it wasn't nearly as far as it should have been.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: It should be Medicare for All.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we call it here, Medicare for All.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: But the people were out protesting getting health care.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: And we were going, the French would say, Why don't Americans want health care?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: And we would say, Yeah, we don't know, we don't understand this at all.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: But they've been made to believe that it's so bad to have this sort of help from your government when uh actually we're the only civilized nation, I think, that doesn't have yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, when I was preparing, I know I now I'm jumping around because I had this this answer in the last section of my preparation for you.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, I think it has something to do with McCarthyism.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, yeah.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, at that time, if you said the word socialist, you were almost fired.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right, absolutely.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: But it started before that.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: But then the the dictionary was uh indoctrinated in everybody's uh mindset.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: So for three generations, you just heard as as soon as an American hear the word socialism, it's just it's almost like this.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it has nothing to do with socialism because welfare has nothing to do with socialism.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Healthcare and education has nothing to do with socialism, it's taking care of your citizens.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: And how wonderful is that?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: But this is what, you know, Ronald Reagan started, this he made slurs against black citizens, really, calling them welfare queens.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: They've made welfare one of those bad words, too.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, welfare is a terrible word.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean, really, they've just done such a job on people's heads.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: So they always choose somebody.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's you know, black women.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: Now it's trans people.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: They're they're always choosing somebody to pick on.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: But in the meantime, they're infecting people's heads.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it really is an authoritarian sort of move.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: And and the GOP has been very uh successful at doing this.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's also they have Go ahead.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: They have the algorithms so they can control the the um the flow of of the interpretation.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think also Reag Reagan started the dismantling the the programs that that gave um the population in general good service or tried to give it, uh, because uh Reagan started the the period where the big difference as I see it in Europe compared to US is in Europe the population are citizens.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: In the in the US uh the population are consumers.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's a huge difference.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: That is a huge difference.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: In in Europe we are citizens and we have rights.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you also have obligations.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so it's not welfare queens or or whatever they called it, because of course um you can say in Denmark, of course there's people who say, Oh no, I don't want to work, I would just want to have my uh my welfare money, and but we have control mechanism mechanisms.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I know also in the States, because when I look at documentaries uh from the US, even in America, you have people who who uh exploit the system.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but but it's everywhere, all systems and all over the world, there will be people who exploit them.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and governments, they do what they can to stop the misuse of it and exploitation.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let's just talk go ahead.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, no.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I just want to say in terms of exploiting the system, you know, the Trump sons have, I forget how many billions of dollars in in tech uh weaponry uh from the United States government.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, exploiting the system.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: The little people exploit this might exploit the system in a much tiny little way.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's you know, it's the rich people that really uh how many billions of dollars did Elon Musk take from the American government to create his his wealth?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I think he must be one of the most uh subsidized persons in the state.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: So talk about a welfare queen.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Let's call Elon Musk the biggest welfare queen of all.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, Peter Thiel, I guess he also gets a lot of money through um.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: So they should they they should stop um but it's also easy to pick on the little ones.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's the easy part.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's easy to pick on the little ones.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's easy to pick on the vulnerables.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: But also people who perhaps don't have so much surplus in the daily life.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you work two jobs just to manage, yeah.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: When you come home, you just sit and you eat and you perhaps watch television.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: You you don't go on and do all other stuff because you have to rest so you can be have energy to to work the day after.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's also what you get if you have a system where people are well educated and they have uh freedom not to be anxious all the time.
• 18:00
  unknown: Right.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Then they have energy to to participate in democracy.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh as you know, uh Denmark is one of the top-rated uh countries in the world for happy people.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't even vote for our Prime Minister, but I trust her.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: There you go.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's a concept that we d we don't know here.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because of course she's a power person.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: You cannot be a politician politician if you're not a power person.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I but I trust her.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and I trust she wants the best for for for Denmark and for the Danish people.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: And as you talked about Trump's sons, uh it's it's just he won the he wanted to drain the swamp, but he m he became the swamp.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he bought the swamp.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, or of the water.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: He's putting gold.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: He's putting gold all over the swamp.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: But but it is so disgraceful.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's it's not worthy of of any nation.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think so.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's no, it's not.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's sad because US is uh uh there's so many good things about the US.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: You you have so many good stuff, there's so many people, there's so much positive energy, and and I really hope for the US that that you um will be better to talk to each other again instead of shouting against each other.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think that's the way forward for you.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: Well it has to be that way, but it the yeah, I don't even know how that's gonna happen, but um, you know, that's one thing I think Trump has done more than anybody in is really divide us.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean he's really divided.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean others have done it too, but not like not like no, he he has a special talent.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, he does.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: And that's you know, I've I've always thought, you know, he's not really good at almost anything, but what he is good at is reality TV, and that's the way he has run his presidency as reality television.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: So there's constant drama.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean when we get up in the morning and look at our phones, because that's what we all do, and we look at all the things he's done in the last 24 hours, it's just like, oh my god, how can this be every day?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: But it is.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: I th I think it's on purpose because you know, like Steve Bannon said, drain the swamp, because you get so much, you get so much information, you get so much stuff.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: So so you you lose focus on what's actually matters.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I so I think it's on purpose.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, I'm just guessing.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: But but I think it's on purpose.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely it is.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean totally.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like people like Steve Milan, and I don't know how much Peter Thiel has to do inside the government, or people like him.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think there's a lot happening in the back.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: But you have Trump in the front because and making so much noise, so so uh people lose track.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, there's a lot happening.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot happening in the back.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: And the Christian nationalists, the Heritage Foundation with Project 2025, they've carry they're just keep continue to carry it out.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: This, I mean, beat by beat, they're carrying it out.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: So there's there's always a lot happening in the back.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let me go on to another question.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, so and maybe we've covered this, but let's let's see if you want to say something more about this.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Americans are often told that universal health care, paid leave, subsidized child care, strong labor protections, and free or low cost higher education uh are radical.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Radical.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: How do those things look from Denmark?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: Ordinary.
• 22:04
  unknown: Right.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: So they look ordinary.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's the answer.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite ordinary.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's not radical here at all.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we have a market economy.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: So and most of Europe, you lived in France, it's the same.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: They also have good systems in in France.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in Paris at least two times a year.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: I come there a lot, so I know.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And as I always also told you about Lars Luc Rasmussen, he's uh centre right.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we have uh conservatives, they don't want to abolish the our system, our welfare system.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: They might want to trim it but not abolish it.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah because everyone gains from it.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know the the the companies get then educated, healthy and um what you call it, um people who are easy to adjust because well educated people are easier to adjust and to learn new things.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and actually in Denmark it's also easier to fire people than it is in many states in the US because we have our system who takes care, so it's easier just for companies to fire them too.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not the companies also have great advantage of it.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: But but the companies also I mean, the people also if they get fired, they have better access to more jobs, right?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: They're not worried that this is the end of the No, because if if you get fired Most Danes are member of uh what you call it, they get the I think where did I have it?
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Most people have um get money from the uh what you call it?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Union.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Union.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: They're members of some kind of union, so they get money.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you get money for some kind of period, and in that period you can look for another job.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: So you get another work, you get work somewhere else.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're fired, you can still you can still be at home and you can still uh take care of your children and you can still live where you live.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: And if you get fired, uh we pay I I I uh to this essay I I checked out a lot, you pay about twelve hundred to fifteen hundred dollars per child for daycare?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Is that true?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, oh it's it's really high.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know exactly what it is, but it's really high.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I th I think we pay uh five hundred and twenty dollars for uh daycare and then we pay two hundred and seventy-five for preschool.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: And for a second child, you get fifty percent discount.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't pay and you only pay for eleven months a year because we have five to six weeks of vacation.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: So and if you are and if you're fired, you get more uh subsidies for your daycare because you have to have your daycare, keep your daycare, because it's also not good for the child to get in and out all the time.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's not good for children's stability and the development.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so but you also have to be ready to take a job.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have to wait for another daycare, then you cannot take a job, so it will bite itself in the end.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you keep your daycare, but you get a reduced price.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, for for Americans, the things we're talking about are catastrophic events for them.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: And the some people can barely make it.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: Listen, children now, I'm sure don't have food here, here in this country.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: Children do not have food.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: It even gives me the goosebumps because it it it shouldn't be like that.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: No, and or health care.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and and um pregnant mothers have terrible health care in this country, especially if you're uh someone of color.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh it's but that that's that's that's just so crazy because color is just color of a skin.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: You're still human.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: So but and and when it's 30 years ago 30 years since I I gave birth.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the system perhaps have changed a bit.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: But when I was pregnant, I was uh followed by a midwife.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think um I d I can't remember 30 years ago, but I was followed by a midwife and some checkups with my doctor.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and after giving birth, I was hospitalized for four days and then I came home.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Zero.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't say anything.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and uh after the birth, uh that's where the vaccination uh where I was it it doesn't make sense with the vaccination programs you're talking about because after giving birth, I think it was about six times I can't have forgotten, but I think it was four to six times the nurse came to our home, in our home, and visited, and uh then she gave a why advice about breastfeeding and giving advice on how now she's uh three months old, now you give porridge with some butter or whatever.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and she came to your home.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: She came to the home.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: She came to our home.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: And uh never would that happen.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, no, no, no.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: And zero, zero.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't pay anything.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: And and there was also checkups at the doctor where they get vaccinations and and stuff.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: And my daughter got all her vaccinations uh because I trust the system.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't pay for it either.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, okay, it's even worse now.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, before people, you know, with all the price of healthcare, I mean, you took your child to the pediatrician, and there was no question about them getting the vaccinations, they got their vaccinations.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: Now, of course, we have Nutty RFK Jr., who is advising people not to have their children vaccinated.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, he says he's not, but basically he's making it very difficult.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: In effect, he is.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he's making it very difficult for uh people, children to get the vaccinations that they should have.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: So it's even worse now than it was.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, um imagine.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Now, when I was a child, I think doctors came to our houses if we were sick sometimes.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, usually we went to their office, but I mean, I don't even know when the last time somebody would come to your house here.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I also read that that a lot of children are dying of measles now.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is that true?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you know, yes, because they're getting vaccinated.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because they haven't been vaccinated.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: We had solved that problem in this country years ago, and now we have measles again because children haven't been vaccinated because of these nutty, you know, RFK Jr., I think what he he doesn't um he doesn't believe in germs.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, anyway, he's another, you know, yeah, he hasn't never been twinned yet, I guess.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: He's I don't know, you know, uh members of his family came out before he was uh made the the Secretary of Health and Human Services and um said don't let him have that job, but you know um Yeah, I know, I know, okay.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: I remember.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: I remember I wrote it, I read it.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean Caroline Kennedy, what she said was so was really great.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: But um, okay, so what does the Danish welfare state make possible in ordinary life, not in theory, but in daily human life?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, l let's also bring education in at some point because here some colleges in this country cost$100,000 a year now.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: I can tell you that the education uh I think uh it's only for bachelor$100,000, right?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: My daughter, she's um every education in Denmark is free.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh school, elementary school is free, uh university is free.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And uh when you go to the university, even when you I I can't remember the age, I think when you're 18 and forward, then you get uh paid by the government to study.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: You get about thousand dollars a month to study.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so and you don't pay anything.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: My daughter, she has a master in political science.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: It cost me zero.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: I paid the books.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: But that's it.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: I paid the books.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the best thing.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: That a child who had racked up debt to go to college wouldn't be happy for them.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and I am in total agreement, yes, education should be free so that everybody has the chance for this.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: But also it it it is an investment in in the country's future.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you have a well-educated population, it it's actually l lift the f the the country into the future.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I think what you know, especially, obviously I'm a Democrat here, but especially, you know, the GOP wants they do not want equality.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: They do not want the population to be invested in each other as a community as you all I think are.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: So they want to have the poor people to serve them, and they want to just uh you know, evidently, as we've seen now with these oligarchs, these tech bros, there is no limit to their greed.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: No, and they don't pay tax.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, and they don't pay tax.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: So um but but but actually it's quite iron ironic because you Americans, even uh Republicans or Democrats or whatever, you're actually paying to some kind of welfare state.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: You just pay to different insurance companies, uh, and you pay for your education.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually made an essay, I don't know if you read it, uh, where I compared the living cost in Denmark and the United States.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: We have more after tax.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: We pay a lot of tax, yeah we do, but we also have peace in our souls because we know everything is taken care of.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: If we are fired, you still go to the doctor and you can still go to hospital and get treatment because it's two different systems.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's not uh uh it's not about if you are employed or not, it's it follows the person.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and you're still paying the same.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think uh I found out that you pay twice as much for healthcare in the States per citizen than we do in Denmark, because you pay for a lot of paperwork and you pay for a lot of administration that we don't because we save that layer.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, our our healthcare system is broken.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's it's it's so expensive, it's unbelievable, and um and it's you know, it's so wonderful that you all have this sense of community and and that everyone has is doing pretty well.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know, yes, some people are rich or but everyone is doing okay instead of being scared to death, they're gonna lose their house, or they're gonna get sick, or they get cancer and they can't pay for the treatments or whatever.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, their children can't Yeah, I I have a little dog here.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's okay.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh fortunately, my two have not barked yet.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: So Okay, so you yeah, I also have two.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, but who's now because normally I go down to make dinner now and and you can put you can put the clock on the back.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: We'll try to wrap wrap this up.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's okay.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so how does living in Denmark change a person's relationship to fear?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: Fear of illness, job loss, having a child, growing old, or falling behind, and how would you respond to critics who say social democracy makes people dependent or soft?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that the the difference is when when a dame gets cancer, because of course we can get sick in Denmark, uh you fear the cancer.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: But if an American gets cancer, you fear cancer and the bill.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and and you perhaps even uh fear for your the rest of your family, because if you lose something, you cannot pay for them either.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that's how I can say it in one sentence.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but there's no softness in it because you see, I'm self-employed, I have my own business.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: But people here, it's easier for them to start uh a business because you're not afraid of getting fired, you're not a cra of course you're afraid of getting bankrupt.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody is interested in getting bankrupt or or lose everything.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: But you can still go to hospital, you can still manage and you can still find some place to live.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: It won't be by the sea, perhaps.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we also have uh low status jobs in Denmark, of course we have.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but but uh you can still make a living and and you still have a school as the same as as all other schools.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: You also have private schools in Denmark, but uh that's why we're not socialist country where you cannot choose, but you have a choice.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And and the the public schools are good.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: We have rules.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you don't even have a uh ministry for schools now, do you?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, no, and in fact, what the Republicans are doing are hollowing out public education.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: They're hollowing out public education, and they want people really to go to Christian schools, which, you know, if you look in in the state I'm from, which is Arkansas, they I just saw the amounts that that were were paid to private schools, and they were all Christian schools.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there was an Episcopal one or two thrown in, but I mean, they're they're destroying public education in this country.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: The GOP wants that to happen, and it's part of, I'm sure it's part of the uh Project 2025.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, it sounds like it.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: But in Denmark it's very separated.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we have uh we are taught about religion in schools, uh, but we're also taught about all kinds of religions.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think about 50% of the Danish population is not a member of any church.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: So most of them is tradition.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: We are Christian country, we have Christian values.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um but uh it's not in school.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: In school uh it's it's because you cannot take even if you're Christian, you can be Christian in different directions.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: You can be a Catholic, you can be Protestant, you can be whatever.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: So so you cannot force some kind of religion in the float of people.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's not right.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I I'm I can't just say quite out frank, I'm not a member of the church and I'm not religious.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm not not religious because I don't know.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know whether there's a God or not.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm open.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but uh I I I don't like if someone is forcing it on me.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it was in our, you know, our our founders' values that that this was religion was not going to be, church was not gonna be part of our state.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: And and what these people are doing, and this is what they wanted to do, is making religion part of our state, which it was never intended to be.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: When I was a kid growing up, we were all probably Protestant.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, there were a few Catholics thrown in, but uh not many.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: And we didn't care who went to church or what church you went to, or you know, it was it just didn't matter.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: And now all these people I grew up with, I see they're just you know pounding the table almost about Jesus and all this stuff.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, wow, what happened to you?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's not the way of the so it's so weird because you just had your 250 anniversary.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and it seems to me that all the things uh you fled is what you are having now.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's ironic.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's quite ironic.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: But you're going back.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: The rest of the world moves forward, but the Americans are going back.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it's true.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: We really are going back.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: But and you know, part of this, I was gonna say this earlier, and then I do want to try to finish up our questions.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: But part of this, you know, when the our country was in such terrible shape after the depression in the late 20s and early 30s, and Herbert Hoover, the president, was doing nothing almost to help anyone, and people were were maybe not starving, but almost, I mean, it was a terrible, terrible kids didn't have shoes, it was a terrible situation.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: So when FDR was elected and he brought in the New Deal, which actually did give us some of the protections that now Americans take for for granted and they don't understand that that is a welfare that is good for all of us.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they don't understand that that is socialistic or whatever, you know.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: But the the the big wealthy powers then have hated that so much for all these years.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, literally for almost a hundred years now, that so what's happening now is still an answer to what Franklin Roosevelt did with the New Deal.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: They hated the New Deal.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: They're trying to overcome every single thing he did with the New Deal.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it it it started with Reagan, dismant uh perhaps it started a bit with Nixon, but Reagan did a big job dismantling it, and even Bill Clinton helped it uh by by supporting uh Wall Street a lot.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yes, listen, uh you know, that's what uh did happen.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: The Clintons, both of them, moved this moved the Democrats to the right.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: To me, the Democrats now are more like light Republicans, and so the the people who are more liberal are really the Democrats, but you're exactly right about what happened.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: And um so this is this is part of the problem too.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but Reagan, you know, the Republicans just they worship Reagan, even though he did things that hurt.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: This is what a lot of us don't understand.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: How people can vote against their own best interest over and over again.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's what they're doing.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and uh it's not even just me or in Denmark.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_00: When you ask Europeans, we're just like, what's happening?
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh you can cut this out if you but no one we are really asking our uh each other, are they stupid?
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're asking ourselves for that.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're saying that you know sometimes you're just like, but it's it doesn't just doesn't make any sense.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you call and you call yourself Christians, but but where's the Christian values?
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: We live by the Christian values.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we say nobody should go hungry to bed, nobody should suffer.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we help each other.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it's good for all of us because when people don't need to be criminals, it's also good for everyone else when when we can walk in the streets safe.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um when people don't need to be criminals, that's a very good way to put it.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_02: That people can walk in the streets safe.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: And listen, we don't understand either.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: We're going, how are these people so stupid?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_02: We're saying the same thing.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's but I think that they've been literally brainwashed for so long.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think they have.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's also why I think I said it uh with the McCarthyism.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's if you use the word socialism, it it is really like uh Americans doing like this.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, it's a little garlic, you know.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: So true.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely correct.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely correct.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think you have to start.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think the w the thing you do by having dialogues, uh talking, slowly talking, and and just listening.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think also you you have to listen.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Also listen to the people you don't agree with because I I I think perhaps um I think perhaps most of the anger in the States are because people feel nobody listens.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's on both sides.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's definitely part of it, definitely.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: Especially I think the people who vote against themselves, and I think this started happening more.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, they were people were being um manipulated star uh a lot, starting with Reagan.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: But then even during Clinton, I think the Democrats started instead of listening to people, their base, blue-collar workers and people like that, they started intellectualizing everything and not and not listening to the people who who needed them the most and who we needed, the Democrats needed, you know.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, who the people we'd always tried to help.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: So um Yeah, that's what uh because where it also came to to Europe, you know, what you call vocism or whatever.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think um I think some somehow people got left behind in that dialogue because I I'm very liberal.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: I I I actually don't care, to be frank.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: But but I I don't see why I should be involved in other people's uh how they feel as agenda or something.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: As long as we're just talking, it is it it matters if you're going to have sex with each other, but otherwise actually it doesn't matter.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and I don't care if people are black, brown, white, yellow, whatever.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh because it's a matter of respect for each other.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think um I think some people who suffer in their daily life, when they hear all that talk, they just don't understand because to them it's a luxury problem because they cannot even feed their children.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you are talking about something as going to bed with someone or your feelings or whatever.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: My child needs food.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: You're absolutely right.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then you lose people.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: Then you lose people because You're absolutely right.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: When you cannot just survive, then everything else is a luxury.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: And this is what um so many Americans now are just trying to survive.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: They're just cleaning on in that big, beautiful bill.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think well, the estimates of how many people that's gonna kill eventually, I mean, I've seen an estimate as high as 10 million people worldwide that that is gonna kill, and I believe it.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um it sounds like so a a chunk of Americans, though not all, define freedom as freedom from government.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: What is Denmark's understanding of freedom?
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get back to that.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: Freedom of fear.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: Freedom of fear.
• 47:10
  unknown: Yeah.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's a huge difference, I think.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think that's the the huge the biggest difference between our two systems.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's uh is like I said before, in in um in Europe and in Denmark we are treated as citizens.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: And in the States uh you are treated as a consumer.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_00: So so you you are well you do well in the States as long as you can pay.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you cannot pay then then you are actually uh lost.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean this is so I mean freedom of fear, that is so huge.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: That is that is everything.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, in a way.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because how how can you have a good life if you're free?
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, absolutely.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, what would you say to Americans who believe that taxes automatically mean less freedom because that's what they're told.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's what they're told.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: And what do Americans most misunderstand about taxes in Denmark and what Danes receive in return?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: I would say uh Americans are already paying to the welfare state.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: They're just not getting it.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because you pay to insurance companies and every time you change jobs you lose everything.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: So you you you pay to it, but you just don't get it.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: We pay to a different uh it's I don't know how how to to say it in English, but we pay also, but we pay to one big box, if you can say we pay to each other somehow.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: We pay to some kind of uh what do you say in common, a b uh a money, a bank account in c we have in common that then pays out for hospital for all of us.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you only you pay and you have so many administration levels uh and insurance companies and people who has to make money out of it.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: We pay to the state who is not going to earn on it.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think Americans are too fixated on uh stock values, and stock values doesn't say shit about the underlying economy, to be quite frank.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so it is misunderstood.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but and this is the problem that's been happening for decades and decades, is that you know, they're making sure that these companies are making all this money.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, scads of money.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: And and even the CEOs of Wall Street, who used to make a lot of money, but not like$25 million every year or more.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they're making these ridiculous amounts of money, and the and corporate and these corporations are are are feeding off of the people.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, really.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and you can say that.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then a lot of people, as I've said, will not have health care, do not have health care, do not have food to eat.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a so uh it's a short-time solution.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: I I cannot stop wondering, you have a lot of weapons in the States.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: So what what if there's a civil war?
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: You can actually do damage.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: You can you can.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: But it's easy for the big if you work on Wall Street, you're safe because you have the money, you can pay for your uh health care, you can pay for all of it, but it's a short-term solution.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh because you only look to next quarter, you're only looking for your next bonus uh or whatever.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: But but the in the long term, I say I would say the taxes is an investment long term.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_00: And in the future of the country.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the system you have is a short-term investment, and it's only until next quarter, all the time, the next bonus, but it's only for the few.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think um actually, I think you should rethink the whole American system.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people would agree with you.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, money money out of politics.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: You should not be able to buy politicians.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: But that's another discussion.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: We can take that another.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, all right, I'm gonna just ask you one more question.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_02: If you could correct one American myth about Denmark in one sentence, what would it be?
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: And what should Americans be asking about their own country instead of asking whether Denmark is socialist?
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: I would say we are not socialist.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that we have a king is everything but socialist.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: But but uh I would say we have more economic freedom as a citizen.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: Ordinary people have more economic freedom.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, rich people rich people also has freedom, and we also have rich people in Denmark.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um but we have just decided in Denmark that illness uh should not ruin a life.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and and um that that I would also say you should stop using the word socialism as as a curse.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh use welfare state.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: I know Reagan had something about welfare state, but I think you have to think as it as it as for everybody.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um and drop it um so um so don't ask if Denmark is is socialist.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: Try to ask the question, who makes money out of your fear?
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh boy, that's exactly right.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: That is that's that's why how I would say it.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: Who makes money out of your fear?
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's not you.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: Trust me.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's not you.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, and we don't have to you know, yes, it's it's so terrible that so many Americans live in fear and can barely make ends meet if they are, and if they are, they don't have health care and they don't have food enough food and they don't have what they need.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: So ask who is afraid of the word text.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: Who's afraid of the word text?
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_02: Good question.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: Good question.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Marianne, this has been so much fun for me to talk to you, and I so appreciate Yeah, it's I so appreciate you coming on, and um and maybe we'll have to do this again sometime.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we can make a fun of it.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_02: And in the meantime, I'm gonna show people.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: This is my uh this is this is a uh trailer about a new a new book that I'm that I have done that is not out yet.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_02: But it's called a modern declaration.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, in the year of the republic 2026, a modern declaration.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_02: We hold these truths again, a citizen's argument for the country we were promised and still owe one another.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I hope this is this is just a small little pamphlet, sort of like we had in our Revolutionary War with the modern uh our grievances, and I'm modern who's enabled this and how this has happened, and to not feel isolated and alone, but we got to stick together and be inspired.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: I look forward to so this is this is coming.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: This is a sneak preview, but anyway, uh thank you so much again, and uh and let's talk again one time.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you for having me.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, bye.