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Episode 360: What Athletes Can Teach Executives About Performance · The Growth Project

• 0:00
  You.
• 0:03
  welcome to the Growth Project. This is a podcast brought to you by AMP. Plus we are a performance psychology practice in Greenville South Carolina where we exist to optimize who you are and what you do. In simple words, we love the idea of helping you be better for the people that matter most, for the things that matter most in your life, while pursuing better, while having big dreams, while trying to accomplish and be a part of something greater than yourself.
• 0:27
  And so we try to help you find the harmony and balance between your life and your work, between your well-being and your performance. And this has become a little bit more of a frequent, discussion. Doctor Gaby Caveat this is on the, show with me today. I've enjoyed our conversation. I love the insight you're bringing. You your experiences in school are a little bit closer than mine.
• 0:52
  And so I'm enjoying our conversations. We're getting some good feedback from our listener as well. So appreciate you being a part of this today. Yeah. Okay. Always happy to be here. Yeah. And so again, give us feedback. Like us hopefully you're liking the new edition where we are providing some documents, a worksheet, if you will, to really support, your learning.
• 1:13
  You know, we know the research suggests that you forget 42% of what you hear in the first 20 minutes, and 67% in the first 24 hours. So what we're trying to do is to be relevant and to help you to transfer this information from short term to long term. So I think it's on our YouTube page or where you might be able to find on our website, download the worksheet that really helps guide and support the information just to help you retain some of this knowledge and and what you're aware of, this knowledge helps you put this into practice.
• 1:43
  So today I'm a little bit excited to me, Gaby, I think when I mentioned the topic, I'm like, I don't know how we talk about this for more than five minutes. But it's a question we get a lot. It's sometimes asked in a condescending way, if I'm honest. Especially from a corporate perspective. But but we hear it often, and I think most people are confused that probably 80% of the work we do is in the corporate space, that they kind of label us as sports psychologists.
• 2:11
  And here's here's the question, here's what's driving today's question is, how can a sports psychologist help me in the corporate world? What do they know about, being a CEO? What do they know about, a, a business organization? And so my default answer is always, well, the mental skills that make it successful in sport, make you successful in business and make you successful in life.
• 2:38
  And that's to me, that's the conversation is pretty much over after that. But that is not usually, enough for people. And so when when you did some research on this and really thought about what, what are the skills that are necessary for high performance in life and in work and in sports, and how do they overlap in this field of performance psychology?
• 2:59
  Right. Well, we have a ton of overlap. Right. And, you know, the first thing I'll say to add to your argument when you're, you know, standing up for what we do is, is that there's research to show that 68% of high performing CEOs and executives actually were, collegiate athletes. So there's clearly some degree of correlation there between skill sets.
• 3:23
  You need to be successful as a collegiate athlete and then to be high performing in a corporate setting. And what we've seen in the research is some of those overlaps are high stakes decision making. You've got to be able to to make decisions and make good decisions for yourself. But for the company then sports for yourself, but also for your teammates in order to succeed.
• 3:43
  Yeah, I think sports to me is such a great. You were an athlete. I was, high school athlete and loved intramurals, by the way. But but to me, it's always such a great microcosm of life. Because if there's only one winner, usually at the end of the season and it teaches you how to sacrifice it teaches you some discipline, it teaches you to be coachable.
• 4:06
  It teaches you, to handle adversity. It teaches you to handle success. It teaches you to be a part of a team and play a role on that team. And that's why I think it's such a great microcosm of life. And I don't know that statistic that 68% of, CEOs and executives played a college sport. And so why do you think there is an aversion from a corporate base to think about sports psychology or performance psychology in the corporate space?
• 4:32
  What are you unimpressed you for this question? I'm just curious. You know, it's a great question. And I will say, I think that the, the way that the perception around athletes versus corporate America is it's very different. Right. And, it's almost like in a corporate setting, you show up much more buttoned up competitors. And typically we don't see athletes that way.
• 4:57
  We see them as, sometimes high emotions, very energetic. Maybe that's a role in it. I'm not quite sure, but that's the initial reaction I have is, oh, they're they're playing a game and we're in serious business. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's dismissive. And I think to me sometimes it's, not really understanding the role of psychology and mental skills training.
• 5:24
  To me, I think sometimes in corporate America, they see it as a rah rah, motivational, type piece. And that's what they see, a sports psychology. So I think it's somewhat misunderstood and misconstrued in the corporate space that this is serious business. And we have to focus and we have to talk about business, and we have to talk about strategy, and we have to talk about tactics.
• 5:42
  And we have talk about all these things that are that are relative, to peak performance. But but we're biased, but we believe the mindset precedes a skill set that we can give you a skill and a tool to use. But if you don't have the mindset and maturity to use it effectively and efficiently, then you become dependent on us or you become dependent on other people.
• 6:06
  And I think sports is more open to coaching because these athletes get coached in everything, and they're used to that terminology as well. And I think, well, my, my coach. Right. Yes, I have coach, my special teams coach, you know, they're used to that verbiage. Whereas in the corporate world they're just not.
• 6:23
  So so you mentioned kind of high stakes decision making. What are some of those other shared experiences that we believe translate really well in the high performance world of corporate America, the high performance sports world that we're in as well, but also in life.
• 6:39
  What are some of those shared experiences that we think, make performance psychology applicable to whatever walk of life you're in? Yeah. Well, the first is evaluation, right? Public and and private, where you're being evaluated by others constantly. You're also having to self evaluate for performance metrics. That's a huge one. I don't know if you've seen that show up in the work that you've done with, in the corporate setting.
• 7:05
  Yeah. I mean, I just, was at a court meeting last week, and, and the team didn't perform well, and they didn't hit the goal. They didn't hit their number. And so the feedback from the leaders sounded very much like a, a talk from a locker room coach of, hey, we didn't play well or we didn't show up well, we didn't execute.
• 7:26
  We didn't focus. And so the language, even the terminology to me, and maybe that's just the way my mind is wired, there's similarities in that process is, I think, the thing that I see that so transferable and I guess I've been doing this for 20 years is they are both and we are all held accountable. The things we can't control.
• 7:48
  And so in sports, I can't control winning or losing. I can influence it in in business, I can't control whether or not I hit my number. I can't control the sale. I can't control the customers, I can't control other people. And to me, that's the most common form of stress in a high performance world. And there's nothing more stress of the being held accountable, the things you can't control.
• 8:10
  And so understanding the mindset that it takes to be successful, to define your own success, to focus on the things you can control, to quiet your mind, quiet your body, to engage fully in the present moment, to not let the burden of expectations take away your joy. To me is is that's the commonality. That's the common thread. And to me, that's part of the human experience.
• 8:34
  No matter whether you're an athlete, whether you're in business, whether you're in medicine, whether you're trying to be a parent, whether you're trying to be successful in school. Those are the commonalities that we all experience is that is part of this human experience, the good and the bad and the skills we coach all tie in directly to that.
• 8:53
  We're talking feedback. You were talking about how they were giving this that was locker room speech, but how you deliver that speech and what verbiage you're using. Tone of voice. Yeah. All of the principles around that delivering feedback, receiving feedback. And then, you know, how do you handle pressure, what are your skills that you have for coping with the demands.
• 9:12
  And all of this ties into to being able to perform in settings where you don't have complete control. Yeah. Here's a and I just got off the, I just did a seminar webinar, with the team on emotional intelligence. And then your government research suggests that your IQ is a greater predictor of your success than your IQ.
• 9:33
  And so in any profession now. No, he says, and his research suggests that to be a physician or to be an accountant or be an engineer, there's a certain level of IQ and maybe about one standard deviation above the norm. But what you get into the profession, your IQ has little to do with your success. It's your IQ, how well you get along with others.
• 9:52
  Can you self-manage? Can yourself motivate? Are you aware you're adaptable? Can you connect? Do you have empathy? Well, the same thing we talk about in sports for 99% of our athletes. What I tell them all the time, the maturity has to match the talent. Bill Parcells, a great football coach, said talent opens the door, but character gets you through to the other side.
• 10:15
  So for us, the talent opens the door. Whether that's your IQ in the business world, whether that's your athletic ability in the sports world, but the maturity to match the talent, the self-regulation, the self management, the ability to be a part of the team, the ability to be coachable, the ability to handle success, ability to handle failure.
• 10:34
  That's to me how I see it. And just a matter of what role you're in, what world you're in and how you're applying, these skills. Yes. And I that relationship is so fascinating to me. I always say a similar thing to my athletes is your your physical skills will get you so far in the sport. Yeah. When you hit a certain level, everybody's got talent.
• 10:54
  Everybody's got physical ability. What's going to set you apart? Yeah. What's going to be that competitive advantage for you. And I think another thing that I think is just we do mainly in America, more so than anything else, our identity is so tied up in what we do. I mean, how many athletes do we know that their identity is so much in their athletic, but in the corporate world as well?
• 11:19
  Right. Because there's a lot of stress, a lot of frustration is, you know, that's not who you are. It's your core. You're not just an employee or you're not just a CEO or just a tennis player. You have other facets. And we get so locked into the one that's taking up the majority of our time that we forget to prioritize the full self.
• 11:41
  And and what my athletes, especially the ones at Clemson that are in a very highly, especially in the world we're in now, just everybody's aware and mindful with social media and access and, everybody is a critic. I always talk about you have to ask a question, do people love me for who I am or love me for what I do?
• 12:01
  And I think it's why the research is so profound on leaders that loneliness is such a significant problem. Because I think leaders ask that same question do people love me for who I am or they love me for what I do? Yeah, and I think these are the other commonalities that really prevent us and inhibit us from being our best and doing meaningful work.
• 12:23
  so are we missing anything?
• 12:24
  Right? I mean, I'm sure we are. And kind of the similarities between sport and performance, maybe, maybe the only other thing I would talk about is the energy it takes, the energy it takes and the demand to experience. Yes, the literature shows it's consistent as well. I remember all of my my research is actually based off of organizational psychology literature on the demands of employees in the workplace.
• 12:53
  And then you look at sports and it's the demands they experience are the exact same, just in a different arena. So it's not that the experiences are all that different, it's just you're going from inside of a corporate building to onto the field. And that's really the main difference. You know, you know we talk about the wellness. We a lot.
• 13:15
  You made me think about that. The mental, physical, spiritual, emotional, relational, behavioral to me, one things we see in the athletic world, the physical is taken care of. Right. You know, we think about exercise. Athletes don't have to worry about getting exercise in the corporate space. It's one of the biggest weaknesses that people will sacrifice their physical health, which really influences their mental and emotional health and their relational health because of busyness, because it's so hard for the athlete that's part of their experience.
• 13:42
  So one coping mechanism that is part of their identity, a part of their work is physical exercise. Now, when they're injured and we take that away, that creates another set of problems. But that's that's a piece that I think is a part of it. The other well, we talked about similarities. I think a big difference is and this is really challenging, the football teams, the sports teams, they meet every day together, they practice every day together.
• 14:09
  And a lot of the global work we do with companies is they may get together and once a month they may get together once a year. And so it's a little bit harder sometimes to build those connections. So those are a couple of things that kind of separate them. But for the most part there's some similarities. Exactly. The you know, the social piece is huge.
• 14:28
  I think, you know, and especially in a team sport, your, your partner is that it's they're going to have much more social interaction, probably closer relationships. And I would say an individual sport, they're looking at something much more similar to a corporate setting where it is you're looking at your own performance. You may have interactions somewhat regularly with your teammates or with your coaches, but a lot of that is very and more focused.
• 14:55
  So I would almost be my favorite individual sport when mirror the corporate setting. That's more closely. Yeah. And so as you're hearing this kind of summer like kind of go through these, I would think about whether you're an athlete listening to this and how might this apply. Because, you know, I think that's important research like 98% of people are going pro in something other than your sport.
• 15:16
  But if you're in corporate America and you're trying to perform at a high level at home and at work, think about what are the similarities that you experience. Maybe you played a high school sport. Maybe you understand the high performance strategies we're talking about can really enhance your life and enhance your work. And so, you know, if you had to sum this up, how might you sum up this, what we just talked about here?
• 15:40
  well, you know, at the end of the day, I think what we're trying to say here is that the arena changes, but the demands don't. Yeah. Yeah, I love that line either.
• 15:48
  I like where I'm showing up and what game I'm playing may change, but the demands on my mind and my body and my emotions and my stress don't you know, in in experiencing that burnout is a huge problem in sports, youth sports. And it's a huge problem in, in the health industry. Health care industry is a huge problem in corporate America.
• 16:10
  Significant levels of burnout and exhaustion. So the demands of what it takes to be your best in the different roles that you play. I like the arena may change, but the demands and skill sets that it takes do not. Yeah, yeah. So drop the mic. I'm over. I'm done. But but we'll we'll keep going just to, just to kind of entertain.
• 16:31
  And so some of the things that we think transfer well let's start with that. Yeah. Well the first is for your processes right. Having a process we always say oh trust the process. Trust the process. However you can't trust a process you don't have. So I, I always think that it's important to have routines to prepare, to control what you can't control, whether that's as an athlete or as a high performing executive and or just individual at home, your home life or relationships, and making sure that you're showing up the way you want to and having a system for that.
• 17:08
  Yeah. And so let's understand why that is so important. So, as I said earlier, there's nothing more stressful than being held accountable. The things you can't control when you can't control the outcome. And if I don't have a process of I can't get lost in my process, if I can't get lost in the moment, if I can't give each play or each, sales call or each day a life of its own, and I'm not focused on my process.
• 17:29
  My brain is going to focus on the outcome. I asked a question the other day to to an athlete, but then I start to ask better myself is what does a good performance look like to you? You know, you say you have high standards. What are the standards? Oftentimes they can't answer that right away. And that's where you don't really know your process if you don't know the steps to obtaining.
• 17:52
  Yeah. And so many young athletes and so many young people kind of just hope. And they're going to show up and play well. And they don't have a good process to handle success, and they have a good process to handle adversity. And so if I a process orientation, that's something I can control. Correct. And if I'm not focusing on the things I can control, my brain just wants to constantly focus on what I cannot.
• 18:13
  Which what does that lead to? An increase in anxiety and a decrease in confidence. And so one of my favorite quotes that our football team sees from me each week is from Thoreau that says, success comes to those who are too busy to be looking for it. And so what we try to teach is it allows me what I want to get too busy doing, getting lost in my process, controlling the things I can control.
• 18:36
  Stay focused on the moment. Not the maddest of the moment, and let success find me because I'm too busy. Be looking for it. Okay, so that's a really
• 18:44
  so then another key component is not only of what we teach or process.
• 18:49
  What's another component that we think transfers really well. Going back to your comment about EQ is is emotion regulation. Yeah. How do you handle stress. How do you handle, mistakes and how how resilient are you in the face of adversity? Yeah. Positive emotions, negative emotions and not letting them detach or detract from what you need to, focus on and then give them that next perform.
• 19:15
  I spent a lot of time this fall working with our football team and our coaches at Clemson. And our head coaches at Clemson, and in a lot of corporate spaces, even think about, in my own life the difference between a reaction and a response. And we talk about we would never take away your privilege to be human and to have that reaction.
• 19:34
  It's to it's human nature to have a negative thought, to have a negative reaction, to experience anxiety, to experience guilt, to experience fear, to experience shame. That's all part of being human. And that's a human reaction when things don't go your way. However, being human means you get to choose a response. And we think about that response of emotional regulation that we get to choose that response.
• 19:59
  How do we quiet our mind? How do we quiet our bodies, and how do we have a productive response to impact my performance in a positive way? And so what are some emotional regulation skills that we see in the sport world? In the corporate world, what would be some things that you would recommend to people to? We typically follow a pretty simple three step process here.
• 20:21
  Take a second pause. Whatever you've experienced, it's going to elicit emotion. And like you said, allow yourself to tune in to that emotion. Whether it's frustration, anger, guilt, anxiety, feel it, pause, take it in, regulate, take a deep breath. Use a grounding technique, something that repositions you into the present moment, and then you can think and respond.
• 20:49
  The easiest thing to do is to experience an emotion and react. I'm angry. Okay. I'm going to yell, yeah,
• 20:55
  that sounds like that's not good. Anymore. Don't do it. But, yeah, the best approach would be okay. I'm angry. I recognize that. What you just did there. Take a breath there. Hey, let him take a deep breath, okay?
• 21:15
  How do I want to respond and ask yourself that quickly.
• 21:18
  And part of that emotional regulation to me as a cognitive psychologist, the similarities as human beings of how are my thoughts working for me or against me? We know where I'm at, not how many times we've talked about this that, you know, we have between 50 and 70,000 thought today and said some of those thoughts tend to be negative.
• 21:34
  It doesn't matter what arena I'm in, the thoughts tend to be negative. Do I have what it takes? Am I going to is my family going to be okay? Is my marriage going to make it? What, like we have these thoughts on a consistent basis about what we need to do, about what we have to do, about what we should do, which adds pressure, which leads to what I can't do, which leads to helplessness and hopelessness.
• 21:55
  And so part of this emotional regulation, regardless of the arena that is the common theme that we see is, are my thoughts working for me or against me? And if my thoughts cannot be positive, how can I be productive in my thought life? Same thing if the situation is negative, you can't lie to yourself and so you get to have that reaction.
• 22:15
  You get to acknowledge that I'm angry or frustrated or fearful or anxious. But how is that thought helping you? How is that reaction helping? And most of the time it's not. That's what we mean by maturity, match and talent.
• 22:29
  awesome. I think the other thing is we keep going about skill sets that are transferable and transfer. Well, and we mentioned it like coach ability if and here's where athletes do a better job.
• 22:42
  They may not love it, but they are used to breaking down the film. They are so exposed each week they get a grade and they watch film, and they're broken down on a consistent basis about how they can get better. I always get excited. Imagine if we could do corporate America like that, right? It would be great. It's an advantage that sports has over the corporate setting, where it makes it very easy to target the behavior.
• 23:08
  Right to target. Okay, here's how I perform. I can see it. How do I need to change it? I can see the outcome wasn't exactly what I wanted, but I use it to get better.
• 23:18
  And I think for some reason in corporate America they are avoidance. They try to avoid the courageous conversations. They don't have the film.
• 23:26
  You know, our coach, like the film doesn't lie. We don't have the film. And we so we try to use three sixes and we try to use these other things to where what I see in corporate America, where coaches in sport, I mean, coaches get criticized all the time. They get coach all the time, they get feedback all the time.
• 23:42
  But in corporate America, we tend to shy away from it and we dismiss the giver of the information. And we resent the feedback. A lot of it, I think in terms of the frequency as well, you know, sports, like you said, you're getting feedback constantly promising or we're doing like quarterly or semi annual reviews or even just yearly or just an innocent performance review.
• 24:06
  And here's where I think corporate America, that is usually tied to my compensation. Right. So it's really hard to separate who I am from what I do. And so if you're if I'm getting negative feedback at the end of the year, my first thought is what's going to affect my finances, which now leads to anxiety and stress and fear and defensiveness versus in sports.
• 24:27
  I mean, it may be related to my compensation, but in the moment, like they're trying to get me to get better. And I think that's that would be they are we do get feedback. But I think sports has a leg up. Yeah. And you know, we're not saying that sports is the, top performer when it comes to feedback.
• 24:47
  You know, they're they don't do it. Well you know part of where it's you know, we use feedback in the same way we do in the corporate setting where it's either get better, your spots gone. Yeah. Right. So then there are pros and cons to both domains. It's just navigating where you're at and what your challenges are. And I think whether you're receiving feedback or giving feedback, one of the similarities I'll talk about around peak performance, around leadership, around coaching, is whether it's for yourself knowing when to add pressure, knowing when to take it away or in terms of feedback.
• 25:19
  How am I adding pressure, how am I taking it away? And I heard a coach, somebody sent me this about Mike Elko, about emotional regulation and adding pressure. And he said his job is the opposite of the moment. And I think that is so brilliant. And whether that's in sports or whether that's in business, how are you showing up in a way that's observe the moment.
• 25:39
  If your team is experiencing this, you got to be able to show up in a different way. If they need some pressure, they need motivation. You got to bring the energy. If there's too much, you got to quiet it down. It's kind of how that works together as a manager and as a leader. It's the same principle.
• 25:55
  Absolutely. What are your employees need? What are the people that you're leading need? And it's typically the opposite of how they're showing up. Yeah. And how are you treating them in a way that allows them to be their best. And I think that's the question I always ask leaders and coaches are, is your team winning because of your in spite of you?
• 26:14
  And how are you using feedback and how are you opening yourself to feedback? Are you humbling yourself enough to receive the feedback? Yeah, good. Okay. What's another way that that that they they transfer.
• 26:25
  one thing. Beyond discipline consistency I think that, you know, you look at success in either domain. The discipline is there. The high performers in the athletic setting, the high performers in the corporate setting, they typically are very disciplined and have a structure in line with their process.
• 26:43
  Right. So going back to the first one is do you have a process. But then are you disciplined enough to carry out that process in the face of barriers and obstacles. Yeah. And so to me to that self-management self like I can stay focused. I can say discipline when I mean, there's a lot of days I don't I don't let my feelings control my processes or my decisions.
• 27:04
  I might not feel like doing it, but because I have the discipline, because I have a greater purpose, because I'm a part of something bigger, I'll sacrifice what I feel in the moment, for something that I want most. And I think that's that's what successful people tend to do, is they know what they want and they know what they're willing to give up to get it.
• 27:25
  Yes, we talk a lot about habits and the formation of, productive and healthy habits that are going to move towards your goals. And and that's exactly what it is, whether it's in an athlete or in a corporate setting, having habits that move you towards your goals.
• 27:41
  Yeah. And so I think one other thing that we find very common in high performance environments is, high performers is creating an environment that maximizes strengths and minimize weaknesses. And I think what coaches do a great job, whether they're recruiting or now the transfer portal or whether the senior in, professional team is they create an environment and maximize their strengths and minimize weaknesses.
• 28:06
  And they adjust and adapt with the team that they have. And that's corporate America, right? Your job as a leader is to engineer the environment that maximizes your strengths, maximize the strength and minimize weaknesses. And that's what creates an environment to win. And too many times I think in sports and in business, we focus too much on weaknesses and then brings to mind the verbiage we use in both domains of of recruiting.
• 28:32
  Right. You're being recruited as an athlete for a team based off of your strengths, the value you bring to the team. And then now in the corporate world, you're being, hired by a recruiter or somebody is recruiting you. And what are they looking for? Yeah. Strength to build. What will increase the company's revenue, strength that will increase productivity, and match the culture.
• 28:54
  And that's that's huge. Yeah. I guess Jim Coughlin's work has been so profound in my work as a performance psychologist or a psychologist or a human being, but in sports or, in corporate America, we talk about the first rule of thumb is get the right people on the bus. Right. And so back to what we talked about with emotional intelligence.
• 29:13
  And it's not about talent. You know what a Calvin Coolidge say. There's nothing more common than unsuccessful people with talent. And it's more about what's it, what's the fit and, and and how do you create that fit. And I think to be honest, probably athletes in sports do a better job of recruiting and finding the best fit and finding the best talent than corporate America does in that piece.
• 29:38
  So so those are skill sets that we think help you perform at a high level. And like, here's the arena that I'm playing. What are some of the common things we see that doesn't help, whether it's in sport or in corporate America? What are the things that that don't do too well? The the outwork everyone mentality, you know, going to work harder than everyone else around me.
• 29:56
  And that's going to get me to the top seat at the table. Right? And that's just not helpful. And oftentimes it doesn't work. It just leads to burnout. Yeah. And so I mean, I think that effort is something we believe is a key to success. But the right effort doing the right things. Right. Yeah. And knowing how to engage and disengage.
• 30:17
  And I think, well, you know, one of the things that we talk about with that effort is, recovery and rest. You know, Jim Lehrer said, and he was the first sports psychologist turned corporate psychologist that I remember reading about. And he said, we live in a world that celebrates work and productivity, ignores renewal, and recovery, and fail to recognize that both are necessary for peak performance.
• 30:40
  I couldn't agree more. And so. So where do you think? Well, we'll kind of go back. Who does it better? You think?
• 30:47
  You know, I think athletes do it better, quite frankly. And I know that's a little bit contradictory to to maybe my line of research saying that I'm prioritizing athletic rest. But I think when it comes to especially their physical rest, they do it much better. And that's a main energy expenditure for them. Yeah. You know, we have things in place very set procedures for how many hours a week they have to be off the practices.
• 31:13
  You know, how many times they need to go see their athletic trainer and go to rehab or whatever that looks like for them? We have a whole applied science lab with, somebody Alex Baena who runs that for us at Clemson football. And he's like, we have more visits this year than ever before. So athletes are doing a better job, at least being aware of the physical recovery of recovery, and now hopefully leaning more into the mental side of recovery as well.
• 31:37
  And emotional. Yeah, I think when we look at corporate America, the rest is just really not something that's, value maybe or lowest. It's dismissed. You know, to me it's pride in how hard you work. And yeah, it's pride in busyness. It's pride in how I mean, and I'll be completely honest, it's one of the things I don't love about what I've created for my life is I hear it all the time, and my daughter will say it as well.
• 32:06
  Dad, you're the busiest guy I know, and it's not something I take pride in, but it's something that's been a part of my life that I learned my whole life, which has helped me find some some quote unquote success. But it also comes at a cost. And athletes understand that it's ingrained that you have to have rest and recover for your body to be.
• 32:26
  I mean, even in swimmers, you know, they have to taper down. You know, you have to be mindful of that for peak performance. But I don't think corporate America understands it very well. I think because, the side effects are repercussions aren't as visible. Whereas with an athlete, if you don't prioritize your for short ever, you're going to get injured.
• 32:44
  They're going to tear something. You have to sit out. Whereas yeah, you're coming to work exhausted, mentally fatigue drained. Can't necessarily see that, you know, we drink coffee or you drink alcohol or, you know, you might wear your Apple Watch or your Fitbit or your Wu, but you weren't really paying attention to that. And I think, you know, I'm doing a lot of work right now in the area.
• 33:08
  Physician well-being. And the research is pretty profound about significant levels of burnout and exhaustion and, divorce and depression and those are all signs of, burnout. I just did some continue education. I need to go find the author's name. But a physician wrote a book called When the Body Says No. And his question for us, what is the body saying no to that you will not.
• 33:34
  Yeah. There's another great book that I like for this. It's the body keep score. Oh yeah. And that's a great one. Talking about how you just go, go, go. You're experiencing stress. Trauma demands constantly. Maybe you're able to push through it, but at some point your body's going to break down and you won't be able to anymore. But it's you know, it's fascinating to me.
• 33:56
  Yeah. And so, so that that we're going to outwork you like that isn't going to get you by what else do we see as a, as a common struggle, the win loss thinking. Yeah. Yeah I think that that's you know we've got in sports the scoreboards. It's either your your head or your behind. And same thing with a sales position.
• 34:16
  Right. Either you're, you're meeting quotas or you're not. And there is some clarity there. But there's also some ambiguity as well. Yeah. We keep score and we run a performance based world. And I think part of our job is to kind of help people be in this world, but not defined by it, not of it, but but they keep score in sports and they keep score in business.
• 34:34
  And every, every sales meeting I've gone to, they'll put a spreadsheet up with the like. And you got green, yellow, red. Who's above the plan and who's below the plan? Well, the add in the game, the scoreboard doesn't lie about who won the game. And so one of my favorite things to do that we bring to corporate America.
• 34:50
  One of my favorite questions I ask no matter what, what role or arena I love that language. Gaby, is how do you define success? And if your success is based on achieving a goal or based on a score, or based on hitting a number, you're going to always fall short. You may grab temporary feelings of success, but if that's your only metric, I think the scoreboard and winning and hitting your playing and hitting your number are a byproduct of your effort, a byproduct of your success, a byproduct of your mindset, a byproduct of your culture.
• 35:23
  Not not the root cause or determination. I couldn't agree more. And that kind of goes into the third one, which is the control illusion. Yes. This keeping score gives you an illusion of control, right? You're like, well, I just need to make one more sale to hit target and I can do that. I have control of that. But it's really not not the case in sports or I for great.
• 35:45
  Yeah. Or even, you know, go back to my physician work. You know that the, the stages of well-being and physician research right now is really interesting. It says that at one point there were deity like status, and now there went to hero like status. And now they're finally giving them permission to be human. And that devotion that I've shared in here before with my wife, who share with me the devotion that the title was great Husbands Make for gods.
• 36:08
  And I think that illusion of control, that especially success and the hubris of success, whether that's in sports or business, that leads me to think I can control the outcome I can influence. Look what I've done. And and we dismiss other people's contributions or we dismiss that. You know what? We may have just gotten lucky, in that process.
• 36:33
  Right.
• 36:34
  Okay. What have we what have we not covered? Hopefully we've made it pretty. A pretty good argument. I feel like we have, but of course I'm biased. I've been doing this for a long time. What needs to be said that hasn't been said? Or what are some, some takeaways from from our conversation today? I think we said pretty comprehensively a good framework for understanding that the overlaps between the two and the differences as well.
• 36:59
  It's such a fascinating conversation for me. Right now because of where I'm coming in with bless, and it's already, in my experience, previously being in the sports world and now getting a taste of the corporate setting. And yeah. So what have you learned? Yeah, yeah. This is this is a good like what have you learned and what have you seen I know we've talked about some of that today, but it's been great kind of seeing that the transferability and you know I knew I knew about it.
• 37:22
  But now seeing it really transfer and I will say like the feedback piece is then one of the ones that sticks out the most to me and, and then discipline and habits. In the conversations I've had in the meetings I've been a part of and it's just, it's it's something that I didn't expect fully if I'm being transparent.
• 37:41
  And I was honestly quite worried. I mean, I don't know how this how I'm going to do going from sports to corporate. Yeah. And now being in it, I'm like, wow, there's a need that it's very similar to what you're doing with athletes. And so it's kind of cool thing at first. Yeah. Yeah I think that I mean, so we talk about a lot of corporate America, thinking, well, biased.
• 38:04
  And what I hear is a lot of sports psychologists maybe being biased as well as like, well that it but, but but I love that it's been kind of an eye opening and encouraging. And I think that's what I'll kind of end with, is people love to look at the, neat opportunities we've had. And those were primarily they see in the world of sports.
• 38:23
  And they always love to ask me, who do you love working with the most? And to me, my answer is the same. And it doesn't matter what you do. But if your organization or you exhibit these three qualities, curiosity are you are you're curious, are you asking questions or you want to improve? We we aren't who you are.
• 38:43
  We are the company for you. If you're just kind of happy, satisfied. You don't want to grow. You don't want to learn. You don't want to get better. You want to keep doing what you've always done, which may have worked for you some humility, whereas you don't have all the answers. We don't either. And then some passion around what you do.
• 38:59
  And so that's what I get excited about. That's what inspires me, is working with people who want to find that harmony between their work and their life, between their well-being and their performance, the the true desire to be better and pursue better regardless of the arena that you're playing in. And that's one thing that's really stuck out to me is going from sports to corporate, is that people want to enjoy what they do.
• 39:24
  And people, yes, wake up and hate going to their job. They don't want to wake up and dread what their day looks like. So finding ways to to use that wellness will help them, you know, learn how to balance or find that harmony that we talk about has been honestly very rewarding to be a part of so far.
• 39:43
  Yeah. Well, you've been a blessing to be a part of it. So challenge yourself. If you're an executive listening to this or you're in the corporate world, or if you're a stay at home parent, challenge yourself. Hey, what can I maybe learn from the sports world? Where am I? Where can I improve some of the things we mentioned?
• 39:57
  Or if you're in the sports world and think, okay, where can I get a little bit better in some of these areas? Where can I really grow? How can my maturity match my talent? How am I taking care of myself in such a way to help me be who I want to be and accomplish what I want to accomplish?
• 40:10
  And so a give us your ideas. Give us your suggestions. Where do you see the similarities? Where do you see the differences? Don't forget about the worksheet. And if you are kind enough and like what you hear, please. Is it follow us or like us? I get confused can be a follow on YouTube can be a like on Spotify I believe or subscription I oh so yeah subscribe.
• 40:31
  That's it. Yeah. Subscribe subscribe. And that just helps us get our message out that we hope is relevant in your life. And so until next time, we look forward to hearing about you being better and pursuing better. Yeah. Thank you.