Latest / Real Investor Radio Podcast / Ep 59: Advocacy and Policies for Small Single-Family Landlords with David Howard

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Ep 59: Advocacy and Policies for Small Single-Family Landlords with David Howard · Real Investor Radio Podcast

• Craig Fuhr (00:12) Hey, welcome back to Real Investor Radio. I'm Craig Feuer with Jack Bevere. We're joined again by David Howard, who is the CEO of the National Rental Home Council. We just did a great episode with David talking about a wide range of subjects that pertain directly to not just the institutional guys, the guys that own large portfolios, but really right down to the mom and pop. real estate investor, landlord, owners of single family rentals all across the country. So thanks again for joining us if you're listening. And Jack, let's go ahead and jump back in where we left off from the first episode. It was great one. So I would encourage everyone to go back and listen to that one and then come back to this one. Let's jump in. Jack BeVier (00:57) Yes, so the let's talk about jump into the policy of the the unit count control because Craig you wanted to dig into that that you know got a lot of that was a new issue for me. I'd never I didn't realize that legislators were thinking about things that way where various legislators introduced bills that would limit the you know whether in whether entities that owned a certain number of properties could participate in the real estate market right could buy any more houses right to prevent It's a frankly to prevent large ownership of single family houses. I mean, I take it David that you guys worked on those specific bills to show the other side of that coin and get those bills ultimately defeated. Did they pass anywhere? Is that idea expanding? Where is it most concerning? Where do think it may actually become the law of the land? What's your take on that issue? David Howard (01:53) Well, yes, it is concerning. I'll start there. We have been involved with a lot of legislation, the type of which you're referring to, that would seek to limit essentially the number of homes that single family rental providers can either own or build. We've actually seen proposed legislation that would restrict builders from building single -family rental homes, which is becoming a more and more important part of the industry and where I believe the industry is heading. But it's interesting, we're starting to see this kind of legislation seep into places where I think a lot of people would be surprised to see it happening. I love the state of California. I California is a beautiful state. I'm a long time Dodgers fan, even though I live in Washington, D .C. But California has a reputation of being fairly progressive from a legislative and regulatory perspective. And so we're active in the state of California. Big market, obviously. Your listeners who are from California know this. Very robust rental housing market. there's a lot of progressive legislation in California, starting with the rent control ballot initiative that comes up for a vote in. in November, as an aside, think would be very, very harmful to the housing market in California. But when you hear about legislation that would seek to limit the number of homes that owners of single family rental homes can own, coming from a place like California, you might say, okay, I kind of get it. But what we're concerned about is we're starting to see legislation like that appear in places like Texas. Tennessee, Virginia, and some other places across the country where I think you would be surprised to see legislation like that. States that have been, to their credit, very pro -housing and pro -home building over the years, pro -investment over the years. And so that's a concern for us, and that has really caused us to become more active in a... larger number of states and even localities to some degree that are looking at these legislation. Craig Fuhr (04:20) David, have you had, I'm sorry, have you had any FaceTime with these legislators, know, that are state legislators who have had, you know, these types of bills and when you present sort of the opposing side, I'm just wondering like what is it falling on deaf ears? Do they see your point? You know, so first, have you had any FaceTime with them or anyone that you know in your organization? And what's the feedback you're getting from them on sort of what we all see as rather draconian, you know, moves to limit progress in terms of rental housing? David Howard (05:01) So the answer is yes. Again, I have accumulated many, many miles on my freaking flyer account this year going to different places across the country to meet with legislators and their staff on legislation like this. And I will tell you to the credit of the folks that we're meeting with and have met with and will meet with, I think they're well -meaning. I think they want to do something about I think they realize that affordability is a problem for a lot of folks who want to own or rent. I think they get the fact that we just don't have enough housing and that's behind so many of the problems that are impacting the housing market. The challenge has been to get them to see that legislation and regulation that would limit the number of homes that a particular owner can. can own, getting them to see that that's just not the right policy. That probably has more of negative impact than anything else. Where we do see success is when we can go into a particular situation, a state capital, with partners, with others, whether those partners and others are other trade associations, the home builder associations, the realtor associations. the multifamily associations. When we have a unified front, obviously it helps the cause and that carries more of a punch. When we have folks from the state where we're working, from the market where we're working, meaning if we're going to St. Paul, Minnesota and we have owners from the St. Paul Minneapolis market come with us and meet with their... elected officials, that is probably the one thing that helps more than anything else. Because again, for me to get on a plane and fly to Atlanta to meet with legislators in Georgia is one thing. But to have somebody from Macon, Georgia or Norcross, Georgia or wherever come to Atlanta and meet with their elected officials, that changes the calculus. in a very meaningful way for lot of folks. And so we always try to make sure that we've got folks from the local market or at least from the state with us. We do things like policy days at the state capitol where we'll organize a number of single family rental home owners in Raleigh and we'll spend the day going from office to office meeting with elected officials and staffers. A lot of where we are as an industry I think is new for a lot of legislators. I've said before, single family rental housing has been around forever, but the industry itself, the common themes, the dynamics of the industry, I think for a lot of people that's very, very new. And I think a lot of folks just don't understand the industry. And so it just takes sitting down with people and talking to them about the industry and talking to them about who the owners are and what they're trying to accomplish. Craig Fuhr (08:09) Yeah. As an institutional asset class, it is absolutely a very new phenomenon. So, you know, it's not surprising that many of these issues are, you know, starting to bubble up to the surface. Jack. Jack BeVier (08:33) So what are the, you mentioned the state chapters that you guys are putting in place and that you're involved in the state and local legislation. What does that process look like so far? Where do you guys have local chapters? Where are you eyeing next? And what makes a, what's the situation that makes a local chapter viable for the NRH say? David Howard (08:59) That's a great question. About two years ago, we started a state chapter program. We're headquartered here in Washington, D .C., but we realized that we needed to be closer to the markets where our members are most active. And so I think at some point in the distant future, there will be NRHC chapters in all 50 states. Why? Because there are single -family rental homes in all 50 states. and in every jurisdiction across the country. It's going to take us some time to get there. And so, again, we started a couple of years ago down this road by opening a chapter in North Carolina. We have expanded since then to four additional states. So in addition to North Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Arizona, and we're launching the Texas Rental Home Council in the fall. So... By the end of the year, we will have five fully functional state chapter organizations of NRHC out there. And again, the real reason to have these chapters is to be closer to the markets, to be closer to the decision makers, to be closer to the policies that are impacting rental housing providers and the industry. Most of the legislation and regulation that impacts providers and builders of housing really takes place at the state and local level. There are some things that happen here, obviously, but here in D .C. that is. But most of the action really is at the state and local level. And so for that reason, we need to make sure we have a presence in those states and in those markets and that we're viewed as a legitimate part and partner in those markets in terms of deciding on housing policy. We need to have relationships with local elected officials and regulators. We need to know the housing policy makers in states who are making decisions about this industry. And so again, for that reason, we've started the state chapter program. I will tell you it has succeeded more than I expected it would, again, just in terms of being able to establish not only the NRHC brand, but the brand of the single family rental housing industry and the build to rent sector of the SFR industry has really allowed us to achieve that. The next step is to build out the staff in those chapters. Right now, a lot of the work in the chapters is directed from this office here in DC. But in the not too distant future, we're actually going to have folks who work for the chapters in those markets. who are developing those relationships and maintaining those relationships and doing the kinds of things they need to do. then secondly, I would say there's a very practical dimension to our interest in setting up chapters, which is we think there's a real opportunity to grow the membership by being closer to the markets where people own properties and operate single -family rental homes. I think for the owner in... San Antonio, Texas, who owns three homes. There might be some question as to the value of belonging to NRHC, the National Rental Home Council. I think there's a very compelling reason for that owner to be involved in a part of the Texas Rental Home Council because, again, so much of what impacts his or her business is being determined by policymakers in Austin. And so that's really what we're hoping to achieve. Jack BeVier (12:50) How many units do you need before a local chapter is viable? David Howard (12:56) There's really no unit criteria. It's really more driven by the number of members we currently have in those states and the level of policy activity. So I'll give you an example. We're looking very closely at states like Nevada and Colorado for future chapters, largely because there's so much happening in those states. Craig Fuhr (13:07) Mm -hmm. David Howard (13:23) from a policy standpoint impacting rental housing, both multifamily and single family in our case. We also happen to have a fair number of existing members in those states. And so that's really kind of driving our decision making around launching chapters in those two states. Craig Fuhr (13:43) Was that the reason why North Carolina was the first one for you? David Howard (13:47) It was. North Carolina, I believe, is a fantastic housing market. North Carolina as a state always leads the country or is at the top of the list. Texas is always way out there. Florida is always at the top of the list in issuing new housing permits. There's a lot of new development, a lot of new construction. People are moving to North Carolina for very good reasons. It's a really strong market and there's a really good story there. Charlotte, North Carolina, Mecklenburg County has been a little bit a challenge for us just in terms of the brands of single -family rental housing. There have been stories in the media, television, print. And so we looked at that as really an opportunity to engage primarily with that market. mean, Charlotte's a huge market, obviously, population and otherwise. And we wanted to do something that would allow us to respond more effectively and directly to a lot of what was being said about the industry. We needed to be a part of that conversation. that really drove the decision to launch the North Carolina chapter. Craig Fuhr (14:57) So in a case like that, is it one of your members sort of steps up and says, I'm really interested in heading up a chapter, a local chapter here, and then you guys just sort of give them all the backing? Is that the way it generally goes with standing up a local chapter? David Howard (15:12) Yeah, that's right. mean, and that's one of the most important components here. We need to have members on the ground who are really willing to drive the bus for us. And so in the case of North Carolina, we had some members come to us. Actually, it was interesting. We had representatives from a couple of large companies, but we also had some folks from some of the smaller owners come to us and say, you know, I think we really need to do this. This is an important market. There are things being said about the industry we need to get in front of it. And so making sure that we have boots on the ground is an incredibly important part of the equation and making things work. so we're as involved as we can be, providing resources, both financial and otherwise. When we do things in Raleigh, if there's a need for me to go down, I'll go down. We spend a lot of time on Zoom calls talking about the issues. It's also a very effective way for us to find out what's going on in those markets. So this is very much a two -way street. It's not just us establishing the chapter and thinking, presuming that we have everything they need. mean, having a chapter in Florida, for example, is fantastic because Florida's a state comprised of many, many very strong markets, very strong housing markets. We need to know what's going on. on the ground in real time in this market. And so having a chapter and having members throughout the state who are involved gives us a ready supply of information that we probably couldn't get otherwise. Craig Fuhr (16:51) So we've mentioned many of the states that we mentioned already in terms of what's on the top of your radar seem like the, I guess the obvious ones that I would think of. But when I take a look at what Jack has done starting up the Small Developers Collective here in Baltimore with... many, members who are not necessarily, you I think we would consider many of them sort of mom and pop with their five to 10 houses. If you look across major post -industrial cities across the United States, is that a focus for you as well? You know, like, you know, lot of cities that are in bad need of new supply. David Howard (17:36) Mm Craig Fuhr (17:37) We don't hear about them as being sort of target markets on this call. can you speak to that? Like what's happening in some of some of our major cities, older cities in America? David Howard (17:48) Yeah, happy to. And I'll also commend Jack for the work he's done in Baltimore, which is something that we'd like to replicate in other similar markets. I can tell you, just sort of at a macro level, a lot of our work reflected by where we have chapters, again, Arizona, Texas, Florida, North Carolina, and Georgia. Some of that was driven by the fact that those markets have been so strong. recently. A lot of that strength comes from the fact that people are moving to those markets. Companies are expanding, which is bringing in more people. And so we know from the data that we have that things like population growth drive demand for rental housing. And so I saw something the other day, like 120 people every day of the year are moving to Charlotte, North Carolina. So that just pushes demand for rental housing. That's behind a lot of our decision making when it comes to where we want to have a presence. But certainly there's an opportunity in places that I haven't mentioned, like Baltimore, like some of the cities in the Northeast or the upper Midwest. I think what's really important, and Jack, you've probably seen this in your work in Baltimore, what's really important about our efforts to engage. whether it's through our chapters or through the work we're doing here in Washington, D .C. part of our message is if you have a certain problem when it comes to housing, work with us or let us work with you to try to find a solution. And so we talked earlier about some of these bills out there that are designed to limit the ownership of homes by quote unquote institutions or other owners. Oftentimes we'll just sit down with a legislator or a staffer and we'll say, you have a problem, it's housing supply or it's housing affordability, obviously which are related. We think we're a part of the solution. So let's talk about what the single family rental housing market can do to help address some of those concerns that you have. You look at, for example, some of these markets, in, again, the Northeast, the Upper Midwest, where there are parts of the cities that need renovation dollars, rehabilitation dollars, investment dollars. There are bills in Congress here in DC and at the state level that would encourage investment dollars to go into certain parts of cities to rehabilitate homes and renovate homes and that sort of thing. Most of those bills target owner occupants. What I have said to legislators in some situations is, why don't we think differently about these bills? Let's think about a way to bring single family rental home providers, i .e. investors, into places where you want to rehabilitate and renovate housing. Why? Because these are the folks who know how to do it. We know, for example, when an investor quote unquote buys a home, on average they invest almost $30 ,000 in that property through renovations, landscaping, new appliances, what have you. The typical homeowner invests about $7 ,000 in a house that they purchase. And so you have a group of people, i .e. investors in this case, and I don't, As an aside, I'm not wild about that term investor because I think providers of single family homes do an awful lot more than invest in housing. regardless, you have investors who know how to rehabilitate and renovate homes. If there are homes that need rehabilitating in a city, why don't we work together to figure out what we as an industry can do to contribute to your efforts? to invest in that part of the city, to turn that part of the city around. There's an opportunity there. And sometimes that opportunity comes to light by just sitting down with a legislator or a staffer and talking about what they hope to accomplish, listening to them say, we've got this part of the city where we need more investment dollars. We want to do some things from a legislator or a regulatory standpoint to encourage. investors and owner occupants to help bring that part of the city back. That's what we do as an industry. Let us be a part of that. Jack BeVier (22:39) Can I offer a? Let me offer a perspective and get your take on it. you know, there's issues around affordability that legislators hear from their constituents. so the legislature, you know, like you said, well -meaning wants to help with this affordability issue. the constituents who have affordability issues are right there in their face, sending them emails, looking them in the whites of the eyes, right? And then there, and there's a number of different ways to tackle that issue. One is to let's just talk about the rent caps, for example, one is to Institute rent caps. and, or to restrict institutional ownership or, like large entities that are buying more houses. because the stories are all around those people are keep, are, raising my rents and those people are beating me when we compete with houses for each other. Right. And. absent a trade organization, absent an active conversation that humanizes the housing provider, they are very easy then to demonize because they're not in the room, they're not part of the conversation, they're not humans because you don't look them in the whites of the eyes. And as a result, and frankly, it's easier to introduce rent capital legislation than it is to overcome NIMBYism. If you if your solution to the problem of, hey, don't do rent caps, let's build more houses. And then we have to tackle NIMBYism, like my god, that's a difficult like, you know, thing to overcome. And so it's frankly, just easier to say, hey, you were going to artificially restrict markets, because it provides a solution, whereas overcoming NIMBYism is just too, too great of a mountain to overcome, particularly in, you know, in states that already have like, land use regulations that are codified, right? That are in law. And so, like the way that we've tried to approach this issue is by humanizing, like the number one reason that we created the Small Developers Collective was to humanize landlords so that we weren't this like just evil capitalistic thing trying to suck the blood out of America's cities, out of the city, right? Craig Fuhr (24:53) Mmm. Jack BeVier (25:04) And, and frankly, that's a really authentic story. When you tell it from the perspective, when the membership is the small, the majority of the industry, right? Like if I think, I think a challenge for, frankly, challenge for the rent national rental home council is that it is dominated by institutional ownership right now, myself included, right? Like I'm a member, but like, But we're not, but I'm not the, I don't, I don't look like the majority of the country that does the housing providers. The majority of the country are blue collar people with a couple houses, immigrants who are here for opportunities, looking like, and who are buying houses and looking for a way to like hustle and like, that's a much more authentic and, and those, those are the people like that are, that are the housing providers. And if you can humanize. David Howard (25:39) Mm Jack BeVier (25:58) the housing provider and show that it's not a bunch of like 55 year old white corporate executives, then it's, you know, that's, it's a more authentic story. And I think a more effective message to the legislator. And I think that there, and that's like being done nowhere in the country. Like I think almost nowhere do legislators realize who the housing providers in their, in their jurisdictions like really are. So that's my little plug to keep growing the local chapter aspect of things. David Howard (26:29) That's very true. There's no question that small owners really drive the single -family rental home market. mean, it's something like 90 plus percent of the single -family rental homes in this country are owned by individuals or small local businesses. I will tell you also something else, a data point that a lot of people don't know. The number of single -family rental homes today is about a million less than it was in 2016. And not only that, each year between 2016 and 2022, the number of single -family rental homes in this country declined. So I think that's actually a problem because I think there is, I know, there is strong demand for single -family rental housing. think single -family rental housing serves an important purpose for a lot of people, for a lot of reasons. And to see this decline over the past six years or so, I think it's worrisome. I think it's a real problem and something that needs to be addressed. I think the only way it can be addressed is making sure that we have a presence and that we're talking to people about what some of the concerns are. But I agree with you completely. So much of this market is driven by... somebody who has one home in Indianapolis, Indiana, or two homes in Geary, Indiana, or what have you. But I think the role that we play, just to give ourselves a plug, is those owners, whether they own one home or five homes or 500 homes, increasingly are being impacted by the same policies and the same decisions that are being made in state houses and the halls of Congress here in DC. For that reason, we need to have a common voice. We need to be able to speak on behalf of the industry and push back on some of this legislation that is coming our way. Jack BeVier (28:26) So kind of looking forward, what are the issues that you think are going to dominate your energy on, you know, for the next couple of years? What's, what's on the horizon? What are the fights that you're gearing up for? What are the opportunities that you think that the industry has? David Howard (28:41) Well, again, I still think there's a perception challenge that the rental housing industry has to address. Single family rental housing in particular. think a lot of the narrative is candidly unfounded and unfair, but we're not the first industry to have to deal with that. just ask our friends in the pharmaceutical industry or the oil and gas industry or something like that. And I'm not comparing ourselves to those industries, but we're certainly not the only industry that needs to do a better job telling our story. And going over much of what you just talked about, Jack, talking about the fact that most owners and providers in this market are committed to their local markets. And not only are committed to their local markets, but oftentimes live in those markets. I most owners of single family rental homes, I saw this statistic recently, small owners of single family rental homes live within like 50 miles of the home that they rent or something like that. Numbers might be a little bit off, but it's something close to that. And so you've got people who are committed to their local markets, committed to their communities, have lived there, have educated their kids there, probably work in those communities. That's the sort of thing that we need to communicate. And as it relates to the role of quote unquote institutions in the space, there's a lot of really good work happening at those companies that I think is very beneficial and innovative for rental housing and single family rental housing in particular. For example, this gets back to my earlier comments about being able to talk to somebody one -to -one when you're willing to travel and sit down with them and address their concerns. We were in Sacramento and a state senator raised a concern about home ownership. These large companies are coming in, they're buying homes, they're competing with home buyers. And so we talked a little bit about that and I said to her, look, we have a program at NRHC that encourages our large member companies. to offer on -time rent reporting services. To my knowledge, we're the only trade association that does that. And I told her over the past year, we know that through these on -time rent payment services offered by our larger member companies, 17 ,000 residents now have credit histories where they didn't before. So in other words, Somebody who was renting a home from one of our institutional owners didn't have a credit history before they started, before they enrolled in this on -time reporting program. And so now they have a credit history and everybody knows what that means. You now, you can't do anything without credit in this country. And getting to a point where you actually have a legitimate credit history is something. And our members are responsible for... creating credit histories for 17 ,000 new owners. We also know based on the data we have over the past year, how many of those residents were able to qualify for a mortgage because of their credit history. So, a recall, long way of saying, there's a lot of innovative programs and initiatives like that, that start with the larger companies, like every other industry, Craig Fuhr (32:09) or a car. David Howard (32:23) Apple is doing things in the mobile phone industry that will eventually seep out to the broader mobile community. Same thing is happening in single -family rental housing. Invitational homes is doing things that eventually will be adopted more broadly by owners of 100 homes and then owners of 10 homes and then owners of one home. That's how this works. That's how this works. But again, a lot of the larger companies really don't get the kind of credit that I believe they deserve for a lot of the work they're doing around things like resident engagement and property management and things like that. But to your question, we're squarely focused on telling that story, getting out to states where we need to have a louder voice and telling that story, talking about who actually makes up this universe of single -family rental home owners. The fact that most of them are people like you and me. They're not publicly traded companies. They're not private equity firms. They're people like you and me. Or they're people who have lived in the community, worked in the community for 50 years, inherited their father's business. Their family members all work. You know, I had somebody call the other day who was talking about member, from Ohio, talking about membership. And he was concerned about this perception that owners of single -family rental homes are having some kind of negative impact on the broader housing market. And he said, look, my family has been in this business for 50 years. We basically operate in two markets in Ohio. My father started the business. He owned one house. He bought another house. He handed the business down to me. We now have, I think he said, 47 homes between these two markets of Ohio. He said, I am... I know my residents, I invest in my homes and my communities. This narrative that's out there doesn't reflect what's actually happening. And so we're going to spend a lot of time telling that story. That's kind of the first priority. And the second is, what we have learned is, from a policy standpoint, when we engage, and this is fairly obvious, when we engage, when we take on issues, there's a much higher probability that we're going to be successful pushing back on policy that might be harmful to the industry. So we need to be in state capitals where there is legislation being introduced that would be harmful to the single family rental housing industry, whether it has to do with things like rent control or rent caps or limits on the number of homes you can buy or anything like that. So again, one, we're really going to be focused on telling a more accurate story. Two, We're going to be very focused on making sure we're in the places where we need to be to fight legislation that is harmful. Craig Fuhr (35:27) Jack, as I think about some of the fine guests that we've had on the show, guys like, you know, Sean Mulhall and Chris Garren, these guys are operators here in Baltimore City, David, who, you know, they own fairly substantial portfolios that to their credit, they have grown from the ground up. you know, they're both in tougher neighborhoods. David Howard (35:46) Mm -hmm. Craig Fuhr (35:51) And I see Jack, the reason I'm bringing it up is I see sort of like a narrative difference between what those guys are doing. And frankly, you know, Dave, we're talking about rents here that in most of those portfolios that Jack, would assume is probably somewhere between 1200 bucks a month and, you know, so super affordable, you know, existing Baltimore city homes that were revitalized by their companies up to Jack BeVier (36:10) Mm Craig Fuhr (36:18) frankly, better than new standards or certainly better than those houses have been in in probably, you know, 30 years. Great product, well run operations. But I see that I see a difference in the narrative when you're sitting down with like, you know, a state legislator who is worried about the B2R side. And Jack and I have spoken to several of those guys as well that are really they're not they're not necessarily Jack putting out affordable housing. It's David Howard (36:24) Mm Craig Fuhr (36:47) What it is is basically very nice rentals for middle class. And I think there is a real narrative shift there, David, that if you could navigate that with what guys like Jack is doing with the other two gentlemen that I just mentioned are doing versus sort of like the other side. I see it as a completely different sort of narrative and product. Jack, you might want to comment on that to make things seem more logical than what I just presented there. Jack BeVier (37:15) No. Yeah. I just think it's the, the, the, the, the point is that it's the same industry, right. And the, the, legislation and the, the policy issues that we, that the entire industry agrees are, off base, right. Affect, affect all of these stories. Right. And I feel like that's the opportunity to the, the, the story, to tell the story of the entire industry, not just a segment of it, I think will be the most effective, because it's the most authentic. So that's the real story. Craig Fuhr (37:20) Yes. David Howard (37:43) Yeah, you know, it's interesting. One of the things that I find most appealing about this job and this industry is there's so much diversity in this industry. And I mean diversity with a lowercase d in terms of product type, in terms of markets and geographies and business structures from individual owners all the way up to large publicly traded companies. I think it's unfortunate that the industry sort of gets swept up in these broad definitions of what's happening, the caricature of the landlord with the cigar and that sort of thing. Because you know Jack and as I know very well, that's not the industry I know. But sometimes the industry gets painted with this brush and it's unfortunate because again, there are owners of single family rental homes that rent for $10 ,000 a month. There are owners of single -family rental homes that rent for $800 a month and anything and everything in between. New homes, 50 -year -old homes in all parts of the country. But there are some common themes and, again, themes that I think the industry should work toward to achieve. Those same things apply to an individual owner like Craig Fuhr (38:55) 100 year old homes. Right. David Howard (39:12) or a corporate owner that might own tens of thousands of those. Craig Fuhr (39:17) David, does your membership include companies that work sort of public private to provide low income housing companies like Jonathan Rose are related or Dominium? I don't do that. David Howard (39:28) Yes. They do, yeah. And we actually have a membership. We actually offer a complimentary membership to government agencies and quasi -government agencies that own rental housing. I wouldn't be surprised, Jack, you know better than I. My guess is the city of Baltimore probably owns a portfolio of single -family rental homes. Yeah, and so, you know, part of the, you know, Craig Fuhr (39:52) substantial. David Howard (39:57) And this is somewhere else that think NRC can play a role. We've talked a lot about policy issues and such, but we do an awful lot of work around best practices. Essentially, how to be a better property owner. How to care for your tent. What does that mean? How to invest responsibly in your properties and your community. Craig Fuhr (40:16) How do you filter out that information to your members? David Howard (40:20) things like webinars, emails, now that we have the chapter network, we're starting to do more with in -person presentations and such. some of that, and again, getting back to this interplay between large and small, the great thing about large owners is they have a lot of resources and expertise in this space that they can share with other owners. I'm not saying they have all the answers to all the problems, but they're... The large companies who are members of NREHC have proven to be very willing to share information and best practices, and so we've leaned on that. But we're doing an awful lot more on local outreach, in -person, know, happy hours with educational programming, things like that. We have conferences that take place in those chapters across those states all the time. So we're doing more of that sort of Craig Fuhr (41:13) So David, we can't thank you enough for your time. Folks, we're talking with David Howard from the National Rental Home Council. If you want more information, would highly encourage anyone of, you know, any property owner of any size to go to rentalhomecouncil .org to find out much more about what this great organization is doing. Jack, any last questions or thoughts? Jack BeVier (41:39) No, not David, if anyone wants to get in touch with you, what's your email address again? David Howard (41:43) The email is dhoward at rentalhomecouncil .org. And what I would also say in my final remarks is send me an email, please take a look at the membership program, go to our website, rentalhomecouncil .org. But if you're also interested in creating kind of a local movement, again, we have chapters only in five states, but if you're in Indianapolis or Chicago or Idaho City and you want to become more involved and you want to create something locally. Reach out to me and let's talk about how we might be able to do that. We want to make sure that we're growing in responsible ways and we're in places where there's a need. So if there's a need in Baltimore or Hartford, Connecticut or wherever, reach out and let's talk about what we might be able to do. Craig Fuhr (42:39) Jack and I were just talking just a couple of days ago about how all politics is local for these kinds of issues. And I want to believe that the power, frankly, that property owners have in local councils, state legislators is far more than I think they believe. And it's always been my feeling that David Howard (43:03) Mm Craig Fuhr (43:06) you know, in some ways it's the, it's the squeaky wheel that gets the attention. And I think for many of these guys, they don't want to get the attention. They want to operate their businesses. They want to, you know, be better landlords, accrue more properties. And I, you know, I feel like in many ways Jack can speak to this directly. There's, already have a bit of a target on their back. That was the need obviously for an advocacy group, like, like the small developers collective here in Baltimore and obviously yours. But, it's always been my feeling that, that great operators like Jack and his partner Fred, I think they have a lot more power than perhaps they believe in their local and state legislators. David Howard (43:48) I couldn't agree more. Having somebody appear and speak to a city council or a county commission, you can't put a price on something like that because it's so impactful and so effective. If they're not the ones who are stepping up and telling the story, then who's going to do it? And those city councils and county commissions are only going to hear from the other side. Craig Fuhr (44:09) Then who? Right. Right. Right. That's right. Jack BeVier (44:16) Yeah. The humanization. Yeah. The, the, the, were, we were absolutely in the category of like, keep our heads down, just be good operators and no one will pick on us because we're doing the right thing. And I don't really want to be on anyone's radar because I'm just going to get like taken advantage of. Cause that's all I see is them, you know, introducing legislation that seeks to take advantage of me. Right. So like, why would I want to be more on their radar? Right. So they can quantify how much they can take from me. Heck no. Like thanks, but no thanks. But the, I was wrong. just think I was wrong. Like I think that the, opposite approach of, humanizing the landlord of telling the real entrepreneurial stories, and engaging and having a, just a reasonable conversation about what the, what the real goals are and the best way to, to accomplish those goals, like looking in the whites of the eyes of, of the, public officials is it's just more effective. It's just a better way to. to get things done and to run your business. So thank you very much for everything that you're doing for the industry and looking for, you know, and for having us as a member and looking forward to working with you guys much more in the future. David Howard (45:17) That's right. Well, appreciate having you involved. I appreciate your support and appreciate both of you inviting me to participate today and want to thank all your listeners for tuning in as well. Craig Fuhr (45:38) It's been a great pleasure. We're looking forward to talking to you again. Off camera, David has said that he'd be interested in coming back and giving us updates from time to time on what the NRHC is working on, and frankly, the issues that affect every property, every single family property owner in the industry. So David, we'll look forward to having you back at your leisure. And yeah, it's been a real pleasure having you on. So thank you for your time. David Howard (46:06) Thank you. Craig Fuhr (46:07) All right, folks, that's Real Investor Radio. Hope you enjoyed this deep conversation. We love your comments. As always, you can reach out to me at craig at the dominiongroup .com or jack at the dominiongroup .com. I would encourage everybody again to go to the rentalhomecouncil .org to find out what more what David and his fine folks are doing. And if you're interested in starting a local chapter, reach out to David because I think there's a lot of benefit there. So thanks for tuning in. See you on the next one.