Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 466: Direwolves and Ancient Hunting Dogs

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Ep. 466: Direwolves and Ancient Hunting Dogs · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: You can't predict anything.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: for ELP. First Light has performance apparel to support every
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: dot com. F I R S T L I T
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: E dot com fills back everybody. He's got a tall chair.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: Ope, run camera here. I am now. Yanni's head is
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: in the way of the I'm here.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: That's all the matters. I'm gonna get to introductions in
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: a minute, but first I got up. So you know,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: when you see airlines airports being like voted America's favorite airport,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: all that's a lie. Like the best airport in the
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: world is the Ketchcan Airport. Ketch Can't Alaska small. You
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: can get all the food you want to eat. It's
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: got everything you need. The main thing that I liked
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: about it was that and Ronnie's seen this in the
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: confiscation display, the TSA confiscation display. Since since nine to
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: eleven they have had and they started doing that sort
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: of thing. They have had a brass knuckles dagger as
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: the centerpiece of the confiscation display, like a genuine like
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: a trench knife, brass knuckles pointed in a dagger. So
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I always like to imagine the guy that was, like
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: the guy that was bringing that on.
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: The plane, who do you imagine him?
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: But he's like, oh, you know, one thing I should
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: probably grab is my brass dagger. So they had it
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: and then now it's gone. And I asked him, I said,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: why is that gone? He says, well now, and then
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: they go and donate all of this stuff and they'll
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: donate it to the Boy Scouts. And I said, there's
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: no way that the Boy Scouts is gonna give out
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: or sell that brass knuckles dagger. So it's just missing. Now,
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: someone somewhere now holds that brass knuckles dagger and it's
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: not going to the boy Scouts, but they'll take it
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: and sell buckets of that stuff, all your leather man's.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: And the other day my kid lost a bench made
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: folder and he introduced the idea to me over the phone.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: He was flying with his mom and he tells me,
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: you know that knife that I don't use much anymore,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: was his way of introing to me that it had
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: been confiscated by TSA. Anyhow, we're going through the catch
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: can line and Seth, we're coming from our fish shack.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: And as we've talked about a bunch, Seth bought the
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: mold you fallen down fish shack next to our not
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: falling down moldy fish shack. And my little boy, my
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: eight year old, was over hanging out at seths place,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: and they gave him a sling shot, the old school
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: kind of the wooden handle and surgical rubber. So we're
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: in we're leaving ketch can and he's all been out
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: of shape because he's worried about how he's got the
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: slingshot in his bag. And we're conversing with the TSA
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: guys about what exactly happened to the where the brass
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: knuckle dagger is, and then I'm not buying that. The
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: boy scouts are auctioning it off, and my kid says, listen,
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: I have this slingshot and the guy he gets it out,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: and the guy holds it and stretches it and says,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: you're okay, next time, put it in your bag we're
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: gonna let it fly. We fly from Ketchcan to Seattle,
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: and Seattle like, we got to go to Terminal D
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: and we're way far away and they're doing some construction.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: So we get off the train and normally, it seems
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: to me, normally it doesn't matter what escalator you go up,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: you wind up where you're trying to get to. But
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: I'm not paying any attention. I'm talking to my kids.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: And we wind up at baggage claim, which means we
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: have to go back through security. And I'm telling my kids,
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: I don't understand what I did, but we gotta go
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: back to security. Two of them had already thrown out
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: their boarding passes. So anyhow we get we had we
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: get in line and here's the bagpack again, and my
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: kids like, man, I'm super worried about my slingshot. And
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: I watched all the bags go through and that bag
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: stops and somehow that TSA guy is so sharp. There's
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: no metal on this slingshot. It's a wooden handle and
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: surgical tubing. And he snatches that bag out and says,
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: is there a slingshot in his bag? And I said, yup.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: It blocks my eight year old they said it's fine.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: They said it's fine, and catch can not fine in
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Seattle confiscated it. So now there's gonna be some boy
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: scout running around with my kids slingshot and at brand
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: knuckles dagger when I find them.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: TSA's website addresses this.
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: It says slingshots carry on bags, no checked bags.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: Well, the thing I was pointing out to him, and
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: when we were hashing this out is I was saying,
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: it's not like it's it's not a wrist rocket. It's
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: an old schooler. He spent two weeks shooting that slingshot
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: off the deck of art thing, and he was barely
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: clearing the water line.
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: Slingshots, by TSA categorization are the same as yo. Yo's
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: not allowed in your carry on, but they are allowed
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: in check bags because.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: You're gonna garrett someone with a Yois Garrett? Mean? You
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: know you're watching mobster movies in Peter You're you're the
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: guy in the bag seat kills the guy in the
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: front seat by strangled him.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: I never heard it called garrett.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: That's a term. Yeah, I like that. How do you
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: not know that? I just don't.
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: That's gonna help you in a Future Trivia episode.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: One more thing before we do our intros. This is
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: this is highly unlikely one of my absolute favorite bands
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: of all time, The Brian Jonestown Massacre is coming to
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: town October sec and already hold my tickets for me
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: and my wife. I'm thinking of you guys fish. There's
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: probably no way you guys fish, but if you fish
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: or anything, let me know. I will take you fishing
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: while you're in town. Joy today, Bye, Where do we start? Yannis?
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Do them all up? Because I gotta look at some stuff.
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: Oh geez, I'm not gonna do a good job. I'm
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: not prepped up for this episode. That well, you're gonna
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: have to do the intros. Big boy, Okay. Brent Reeves
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: is here today.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you just hear because you like dogs and you're
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: in town. It's just a happy coincidence. His wife, Alexis
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: is here. How long you guys been married? I think
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: twelve years?
• 6:50
  Speaker 5: She thinks twelve years. I knew you was going to
• 6:52
  Speaker 5: ask this question. We're waiting on the lift at the
• 6:55
  Speaker 5: hotel and she came. She was getting ready, and she
• 6:57
  Speaker 5: walked into where I was sitting, and I said, now
• 6:59
  Speaker 5: we've married, how long.
• 7:02
  Speaker 6: You know you asked me what year we were married?
• 7:04
  Speaker 5: Okay, whatever it was. From now on, just direct all
• 7:07
  Speaker 5: the questions to Mike Atarney.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Uh, you're honest. You tell us, of course, Spencer Newhart,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: Ronnie Bam many time guests, Ronnie Bam are living our
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: our expert on dogs that are living today and what
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: they have going on. And then we have a dire wolf,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: an ancient dog expert. How do you like to classify yourself?
• 7:26
  Speaker 6: I mean that sounds good.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: Really, I'll take it.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: Sure, you know the first question I'm gonna ask you.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: I don't want you to answer it yet, but I
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: want you to know. The first question I'm gonna ask you is,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: And I want you to think about this because you
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: guys are gonna you're gonna nitpick this question. Who How
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: long ago did someone have the first pet dog? And
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: I'll define pet like a dog where the owner could
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: at any given time account for where that dog was.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, I want you to mull that over. You
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: got a good one lined up?
• 8:00
  Speaker 6: No?
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Oh?
• 8:01
  Speaker 7: Really?
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Like it's not it's not well known to science.
• 8:04
  Speaker 7: It's no, it's more in my category.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: No, it's not in category. You tell me you're not
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: gonna tell me the way that satisfies me. On what
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: continent and in what is today's country, and in what year?
• 8:16
  Speaker 7: And they sent the Messegi's up to the Pharaohs.
• 8:18
  Speaker 6: They put the big old bells on there the pharaohs.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Someone had a dog, pet a pet dog way before that.
• 8:24
  Speaker 7: That's just one I could do.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: You agree right? Don't answer? Yeah, Steve.
• 8:29
  Speaker 7: You also didn't mention her name.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: Oh I'm sorry, Angela Perry. What are you tell me?
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: Who are you affiliated with?
• 8:38
  Speaker 6: I'm a professor at Texas and University and I work
• 8:41
  Speaker 6: in commercial cultural resource management commercial archaeology as well, helping
• 8:49
  Speaker 6: people manage their heritage aka archaeology.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Oh, I got it. Do you interface with a frequent guest?
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: We have David Meltzer who's he's at a different school,
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: But you got interface ever on ancient old stuff.
• 9:01
  Speaker 6: I mean Texas A and M and S m U
• 9:04
  Speaker 6: what we do?
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but you guys, you guys hate each other.
• 9:07
  Speaker 6: Neither one of us are from Texas, so.
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: We don't care in the same journals.
• 9:13
  Speaker 6: Oh yeah, we written papers together and I yeah, we
• 9:15
  Speaker 6: wrote a paper about dogs coming to the Americas with people.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, how long you've been at Texas, A.
• 9:22
  Speaker 6: And M one year.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Where were we at before then?
• 9:26
  Speaker 6: The United Kingdom UK? Doing what archaeology?
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Did you did you spend time at the Did you
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: spend time at the Ancient DNA place in Oxford?
• 9:39
  Speaker 8: Yeah?
• 9:39
  Speaker 6: I work really closely with Gregor Larsen and the Ancient
• 9:42
  Speaker 6: DNA group Oxford.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Do you work with Best Shapirol, she's been on the show.
• 9:46
  Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, Beth and I Best on the dire Wolf
• 9:48
  Speaker 6: paper with us. We work together to try to get
• 9:51
  Speaker 6: DNA out of dire wolves. Took a long time.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: We did it such a little clique.
• 9:56
  Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I got one club.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: I got one. You can't answer right now and it
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: won't detract from because we won't get into it too
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: much later. We had a big argument. Do you remember
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: the Spencer? No, we had a big argument about what
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: big argument. Spencer wasn't in it. Huh were there ever
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: dire wolves? Oh?
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was. I was the one who you know.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: I got such a bone to pick with you, dude?
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: Were there? But here? Was there ever dire wolves in Alaska?
• 10:31
  Speaker 6: North of the wall? You mean, and there we go?
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: What is that that that takes place in Alaska?
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: Well?
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: You know Arctic?
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: Uh?
• 10:44
  Speaker 6: Good question. We the real answer is we aren't sure.
• 10:48
  Speaker 6: So there are a couple possible dire wolves. We have
• 10:53
  Speaker 6: this issue though, that we have dire wolves, we have
• 10:55
  Speaker 6: gray wolves. We also have something called the Bringian wolf
• 10:58
  Speaker 6: now extinct wolf. All of them look very very similar morphologically,
• 11:04
  Speaker 6: bones look very similar. So we have people like me
• 11:09
  Speaker 6: zo archaeologists go through a lot of bones trying to
• 11:12
  Speaker 6: figure out how someone called this a x y Z.
• 11:15
  Speaker 6: I mean not that long ago. I was in the
• 11:17
  Speaker 6: Illinois State Museum where I work a lot, and digging
• 11:20
  Speaker 6: through some boxes. Read about a puppy burial. Digging, digging,
• 11:24
  Speaker 6: Let me find this puppy burial they found in the seventies.
• 11:27
  Speaker 6: Dig it out bobcat, real popcat.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: So you got to go digging around behind, you got
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: to go digging around behind round. I think they all
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: went to farms. It's like a puppy mass grave.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Was that the bobcat that they put like shell necks?
• 11:51
  Speaker 6: I had a necklace on it and everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 11:54
  Speaker 6: I had a had a cool necklace. It had marine
• 11:58
  Speaker 6: and fresh water pearls on it, and then it had
• 12:02
  Speaker 6: they were carved like two bear canines, but they were
• 12:05
  Speaker 6: like deer long bones, but they've been carved to look
• 12:08
  Speaker 6: like bear canines, really strung up. We found it buried.
• 12:12
  Speaker 6: The photos from the excavation in the seventies like have
• 12:15
  Speaker 6: it laying out in a burial with the necklace clearly round.
• 12:18
  Speaker 6: So they thought like, oh, it must be a dog,
• 12:20
  Speaker 6: must be a puppy.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: They took so someone had taken deer long bones and
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: carved them to look like barri caneines.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, and you were wanted to recognize it.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: Like fake the earliest fake diamond.
• 12:30
  Speaker 6: I mean it's pretty I mean it's pretty cool. I
• 12:32
  Speaker 6: mean they pulled it out. Listen what we do for
• 12:34
  Speaker 6: zoo archaeology identifying you know, animal remains at archaeological sites.
• 12:38
  Speaker 6: This is not This is a fairly new kind of
• 12:41
  Speaker 6: category of archaeology. Before that, you take your bones that
• 12:44
  Speaker 6: you found, you sent to a biologist or zoologist or
• 12:46
  Speaker 6: something like that, or you just kind of rough it
• 12:48
  Speaker 6: in the field. I'm an archaeologist. I don't know. It
• 12:50
  Speaker 6: looks like it could be a dog. Probably dog. Put
• 12:53
  Speaker 6: it in a box, put it right, puppy burial on
• 12:55
  Speaker 6: the box. Put it away. In forty years, someone will
• 12:59
  Speaker 6: come along, Miss America can tell me what it is bobcatt? Yeah,
• 13:05
  Speaker 6: so it wasn't a mound in Illinois.
• 13:07
  Speaker 7: Is it possible it was a domesticated bobcat?
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I think so, Little pet, I don't know.
• 13:13
  Speaker 6: You tell me, can you domesticate a bobcat?
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Well, no, you can't. You can domesticate a bobcat. A
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: you can't domesticate bobcat cat.
• 13:21
  Speaker 6: You can tame yet a bobcat not domesticated with the
• 13:25
  Speaker 6: definition of domesticated.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Well from.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Dollars in Alaska? Real quick?
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: Wasn't there a declaration they wanted to hear the bone
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: I have to pick with you.
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: Well a second, wasn't there a declaration made in twenty
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: twenty that there were diar wolves found in Asia? Like,
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: wouldn't that imply that they had to get there via Alaska?
• 13:44
  Speaker 6: There was a declaration made.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Okay, but it's not not accepted, not yet.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: No, No, I mean the media jumps the gun. I'm sorry,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: go ahead, the media jumps the gun. Someone will come
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: out with the paper to beat to say, hey, here's
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: the thing that like a thing that would be warrant exploration,
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: and they and then they come up with a headline
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: humans in New World way before previously thought, and then
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: you read it and you going, eh, I mean they
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: got like a date off a thing that probably isn't valid,
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: and they don't include all that in the headline.
• 14:19
  Speaker 6: Yeah, we're in the world of like sexy archaeology, right, So, dogs, DNA,
• 14:23
  Speaker 6: peopling of the Americas, all these things get like hot
• 14:27
  Speaker 6: topic headlines.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: That's why you're here, you know, right exactly.
• 14:29
  Speaker 6: That's why I'm here. Diar wolves in Alaska, who knows.
• 14:35
  Speaker 6: Dire wolves don't seem to like cold weather. They were
• 14:37
  Speaker 6: hanging out a lot in lower latitudes near water. They're
• 14:42
  Speaker 6: into Florida, they're into Texas, they're into southern California with
• 14:45
  Speaker 6: tirees like they're a tires exactly. They're snowbirds. They're not.
• 14:49
  Speaker 6: They don't seem to like the cold weather too much.
• 14:52
  Speaker 6: So been hard to believe. You might have had some
• 14:54
  Speaker 6: that like wandered aimlessly into somewhere north, but they're not
• 14:58
  Speaker 6: like really hanging out there. It's not their place, got it?
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: So in Krin's words, Angela Perry, you might pronounce that correct, Yeah,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: is well Krinn messed up. It'd be an archaeologist Krin.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Angela Perry is in Krin's words. Archaeologist, Oh, she corrected
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: it is an archaeologist and professor at Texas A and M.
• 15:22
  Speaker 7: Her.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Area's expertise include environmental archaeology, got it, zoe archaeology, got it, parasitology.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: First time ever heard that word? I got it, palaeo ecology,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: got it. Hunter gathers domestication, adaptation and candids. Also, Ronnie
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: Bame hosts the Honting Dog podcast. Brent Reeves hosts This
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Country Life on the met Eater Network and often hunts
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: with dogs. We're gonna come back to all that in
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: a minute. Another invitation.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah, I'm an inspiring dog owner.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Really, this is a noe doubt and I'm gonna hit
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: you up on Instagram too. The Butcher of hoy Lake
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: a golfer, so Barons. Here's the headline from Baron's The
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: Butcher of hoy Lake stays patient as he hunts British
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: Open Crown. So there's a there's a golfer, real good
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: at golfing. I see that he uh in all his
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: interviews about golf, and he always talks about hunting. I
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: want to have so I'd like to have you come
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: on the podcast because I feel that golf is the
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: antithesis of hunting. Like you can't get if I looked
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: at a person golfing, a person sitting on a chair
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: reading in a person hunting, and I had to rate him,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: like who's closest, honey, I would pick the person on
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: the chair because maybe they're reading about hunting. It's like
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: I would love to have Brian Harmon on guy. So
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: there's an invite, Please come on the show. We're gonna
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna, We're gonna dog on you about playing golf
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: and you can defend yourself. Just killed the biggest deer
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: of his life two years ago. Only hunts mature box
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: butcher's his own deer. Nice and won a golfing contest.
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: Real big golfing contest, like a big golfing tournament.
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: There are four majors, Steve, he won the wrong one
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: because this is the only one held outside of the
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: United States. Thus, the European media didn't take a liking
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: to his very American hunting culture. Oh that's how they
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: kind came.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're like the you know they're king, they're
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: king guys used to go hunting, for sure. The current
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: ones the one I think the one that app the
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: one that like, the one that abs gone to do America.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: I think he used. Yeah, he used to hunt, and
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I think the one that stayed put used to do it. Yeah.
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: If you'd go to Brian's Instagram, you wouldn't even know
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: he was a golfer. He looks like a plain old hunter.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Oh really, God, please come on the show. Did he
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: come on the show? Krin, You're gonna reach out to him.
• 18:07
  Speaker 8: You're going to reach out to him.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to have him on the show. Um,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: it's what else is in here? And that's interesting? That's
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: not interesting? Now that it's not interesting, it's all interesting, Crin.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: It's just I'm just trying to be cognizant of time,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: and to be honesty, I didn't look at everything that
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: was interesting in the right frame of reference. Oh why
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: did you scratch out why astrology is stupid?
• 18:44
  Speaker 8: Because I didn't think that.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: That was the most interesting thing.
• 18:47
  Speaker 8: I didn't think that the explanation was.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Like, but that great explanation. So guy right saying he
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: knows that I hate astrology, and I think I've talked
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: about making my own twelve signs? Have I told you
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: about that? Like instead of looking up your sign, I'll
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: make up twelve. That'd be like your dad was a
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: drunk and beat you, so you look it up and
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: you'd be like, you'll have you'll have trust issues. You'll
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: have trust issues today, Like you're extraordinarily wealthy, but you
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: inherited all the money, and you can look it up
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: and be like, be an easy day today, but you
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: might feel existential crises. And then it'd be a much
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: more accurate way to find out what's going to happen
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: today than it would be to look at astrology. But
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: this guy was saying. This guy wrote in Why It's
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: All Wrong everyone thinks there's something other than they are,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: and he explains the Earth currently revolves around the Sun
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: and spins on its axis with a twenty three point
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: five degree tilt that, in conjunction with Earth's rotation around
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: the Sun, gives us the seasons. Got it. This tilt
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: changes wobbles in a formal process called precession. This also
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: affects climate. This matters because thousands of years ago, when
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: astrological signs were defined, the night sky was positionally different
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: than it is now. So when someone says they're are
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: Aquarius or Virgo, or whatever. They're actually off by a month.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: In that night sky they were referring to via zodias
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: vote via the zodiac sign, so it's not even accurate anyway.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: So you follow me. So I always run around liking
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: to tell people that I'm Aquarius, I believe, but I'm not.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: That was interesting, and you made up twelve of those. No, only,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: I'm just still working on the concept. So I got
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: to find twelve that capture everybody, and then you'll be
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: able to look every morning and I'll tell you a
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: little bit about how the day is going to go. Perfect. Yeah,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: you can help me with that. On it, I'm on it. Yeah,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: because you can help me with the one about criminals
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: that you get it like you're a criminal, and then we
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: can look out and they'll give you some under the
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: sign of handcuffs. Oh we got to do signs too, Yeah,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: like the handcuffs signed, the bar shadows from the window,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: the money sign.
• 21:09
  Speaker 5: The bar shadows from the window are your first clue
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: that you're dreaming?
• 21:14
  Speaker 6: Uh?
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: All right, getting on now, Krein, When do you imagine
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: that we plugged Roundie's project?
• 21:25
  Speaker 8: I was gonna say a little bit later on.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, So We're gonna dig right in. Can we save
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: all that stuff? Though? Yeah, normally this had all happen
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: behind the scenes, but feel so cranky about his video
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: that we can't be behind the scenes anymore.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: Sausage is getting made.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: We're seeing it. Okay, all right, let's dig in. Now.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Have you thought about what my question?
• 21:45
  Speaker 6: Which one?
• 21:48
  Speaker 7: Okay?
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: And this that's a question that's going to require you
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: to is a question that's going to require you to
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: define a bunch of points.
• 21:56
  Speaker 6: Mm hmm.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: We lately. When I say lately, I mean in recent years,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: you see headline after headline after headline as dogs become
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: more popular and more treat people treat dogs more like people.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: People are infatuated with dogs. You see more and more
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: headlines sort of speculating on when the what is the
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: genesis of dog ownership, What is the genesis of the
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: pet dog? Who first domesticated the dog? When did they
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: domesticate the dog? How was the dog domesticated? So I'm
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: trying to put in a clean question that would let
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: you explore some of these definitions to say who had
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: the first dog, when and where?
• 22:46
  Speaker 6: Generous of you set those questions up for us? Okay, Well,
• 22:54
  Speaker 6: good questions. I think that where we're at in people
• 22:58
  Speaker 6: who are into a dogs is probably that we are
• 23:02
  Speaker 6: we are moving away from just like Neanderthals. You probably
• 23:06
  Speaker 6: had like Meton and Dave talking about this and when
• 23:08
  Speaker 6: they were on before. Are we previously thought like, oh,
• 23:12
  Speaker 6: Neanderthals are these like kind of brutish people who can't
• 23:15
  Speaker 6: figure anything out. More learning that they're doing all these
• 23:18
  Speaker 6: amazing things. And I think around dogs, we've always had
• 23:21
  Speaker 6: this idea that probably it's only recently that we've been
• 23:24
  Speaker 6: doing like training and breeding and very specific stuff, and
• 23:27
  Speaker 6: up until this point, dogs have just been kind of
• 23:29
  Speaker 6: wandering in their own left to their own devices. That's
• 23:34
  Speaker 6: probably not the case. So some of the work we're
• 23:35
  Speaker 6: starting to do now is trying to figure out the
• 23:37
  Speaker 6: genetic lineages of working dogs. You know, when do people
• 23:42
  Speaker 6: really start breeding dogs to be working dogs, birding dogs
• 23:48
  Speaker 6: or hunting dogs or sled dogs or any of these
• 23:50
  Speaker 6: kinds of things.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Breedy meaning I'm going to take this one which is great, yeah,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: put it with this one which is great, yeah, and
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: hopefully continue this this yeah, continue this like set of
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: behaviors or whatever.
• 24:03
  Speaker 6: Right, So brings tricky, right, because it not only means
• 24:05
  Speaker 6: you have to put things together, but you have to
• 24:06
  Speaker 6: keep things apart. Right, So you have some dogs that
• 24:09
  Speaker 6: you're like, Nope, don't want them, not those aren't the
• 24:12
  Speaker 6: good ones. We don't want them breeding with the ones
• 24:14
  Speaker 6: who are good at this. So it takes some forethought,
• 24:17
  Speaker 6: takes some planning, take some ways to keep them apart
• 24:21
  Speaker 6: from each other. Right, So we did a pay for
• 24:22
  Speaker 6: a couple years ago now on some rock art we
• 24:25
  Speaker 6: found in Saudi Arabia showing people hunting with dogs at
• 24:30
  Speaker 6: several sites. These dogs had leashes on them, very clearly
• 24:34
  Speaker 6: le leashed dogs. Some of them were a couple dogs,
• 24:37
  Speaker 6: some of them like huge groups of dogs. Some of
• 24:40
  Speaker 6: the dogs were leashed, some of the dogs weren't leashed.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: And this is rock art.
• 24:43
  Speaker 6: It's rock art, right. And so what's interesting as well,
• 24:45
  Speaker 6: if you're interested in hunting and how people are using dogs,
• 24:48
  Speaker 6: is that these are two different locations as well. So
• 24:50
  Speaker 6: you have one site that's kind of an oasis area
• 24:53
  Speaker 6: where you clearly are gonna have animals that are coming
• 24:56
  Speaker 6: up to drink and eat and they're gonna be trying
• 24:59
  Speaker 6: to ambush prey at a watering hole. And then you
• 25:03
  Speaker 6: have another location where you also have dog hunting rock art.
• 25:06
  Speaker 6: That's this kind of narrow escarpment valley where you're clearly
• 25:09
  Speaker 6: going to be using dogs to like chase hunt animals
• 25:12
  Speaker 6: into a location where then you're going to kill them.
• 25:17
  Speaker 6: And the depictions of how they're using dogs and these
• 25:20
  Speaker 6: two locations are very different.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Your hand gesture for kill very violent. She stabbed with
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: stabbed with both hands at once.
• 25:32
  Speaker 6: This is what we're doing, right, So.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: She's the first criminal astrological.
• 25:39
  Speaker 6: So what's interesting about that rocker is that, yeah, we
• 25:42
  Speaker 6: have leashes, so they're clearly controlling dogs.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: But what you're going to get to when the rock
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: art was made.
• 25:48
  Speaker 6: Yes, so rock art hard to date, but pre Neolithic,
• 25:51
  Speaker 6: so before the arrival of agriculture, so probably nine to
• 25:55
  Speaker 6: ten thousand years ago, eight thousand years ago something.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: They were leashed dogs, leashed.
• 25:59
  Speaker 6: Dogs, leash dogs. What's interesting about this that we notice
• 26:02
  Speaker 6: is that they're depicting in some places tons of like
• 26:05
  Speaker 6: twenty thirty forty dogs, groups of dogs with very specific
• 26:08
  Speaker 6: patterning and very specific like morphotypes of the dogs. So
• 26:12
  Speaker 6: it almost appears as if they're depicting individual dogs that
• 26:16
  Speaker 6: are like known to them, you know, they're not just
• 26:18
  Speaker 6: drawing dog, dog, dog that, Oh, this one has spots here,
• 26:22
  Speaker 6: this one has a pattern on its chest, here, this
• 26:25
  Speaker 6: one has this. So you start to get this impression
• 26:27
  Speaker 6: that very very early on, people are thinking of dogs
• 26:31
  Speaker 6: as like individuals, and that they're thinking of dogs as
• 26:35
  Speaker 6: members of the group, members of the hunting party, and
• 26:38
  Speaker 6: that they're it's not this idea of like just take
• 26:42
  Speaker 6: the dogs or blindly going out for a hunt, whatever
• 26:44
  Speaker 6: happens happens, right, that there's planning involved, that there's some
• 26:49
  Speaker 6: kind of method involved, and that the dogs are individuals
• 26:53
  Speaker 6: known to them and are in many ways probably equal
• 26:56
  Speaker 6: members of the hunting group.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: You read a lot into this.
• 27:01
  Speaker 6: It was my PhD, So maybe I am reading a
• 27:04
  Speaker 6: lot into it. But I mean they're depicting dogs very
• 27:06
  Speaker 6: specifically right in some interesting ways. So I would say
• 27:09
  Speaker 6: probably by that time there's some effort to you know,
• 27:13
  Speaker 6: control dogs, train dogs, breed dogs, do some some kind
• 27:17
  Speaker 6: of like and does that lead to a pet? Is
• 27:20
  Speaker 6: that a pet?
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: No?
• 27:22
  Speaker 6: Dogs are interesting because they're kind of like a Swiss
• 27:24
  Speaker 6: army knife of tools, right, So my interest in dogs
• 27:29
  Speaker 6: is dogs is technology. Right, They're the first biotechnology. If
• 27:32
  Speaker 6: we think about all the things that we do with
• 27:33
  Speaker 6: animals these days in terms of technology, dogs are where
• 27:38
  Speaker 6: all of that started. Before dogs we dead to everything ourselves.
• 27:42
  Speaker 6: We had to figure out how to hunt, We had
• 27:43
  Speaker 6: to figure out how to track things. We had to
• 27:45
  Speaker 6: figure out how to do all this ourselves. Dogs are
• 27:47
  Speaker 6: the first time that we went, oh, wait a minute,
• 27:51
  Speaker 6: like something else can do this for us? Oh, yeah,
• 27:53
  Speaker 6: it's better than we are, right right. So you can
• 27:57
  Speaker 6: use a dog to hunt, You can use a dog
• 27:59
  Speaker 6: to pull a sled, but you can also use dog
• 28:01
  Speaker 6: as a bed warmer. You could also use a dog
• 28:03
  Speaker 6: as emergency food, for source alarm system sanitation around your
• 28:09
  Speaker 6: camp site. The dog does a lot of things.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Dog is technology, right, are you hip to the eye
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: to the theory? I'm sure you've heard it that dogs
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: perhaps self domesticated, meaning here you have these these roving
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: bands of hunters or these migratory bands of hunters, and
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: they leave a lot of waste, gut piles, carcasses, and
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: dogs are just kind of glued to them.
• 28:41
  Speaker 6: Yeah right, yeah.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: And over time like that as a possible explanation for
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: how it came to be, and it wasn't bad to
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: have them around. They would alert the you know you
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: to the presence of things, and maybe that helps explain
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: how it came to be that these two species, yeah,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: develop some sort of symbiosis.
• 29:02
  Speaker 6: I mean, I think this is probably the kind of
• 29:05
  Speaker 6: going theory at the moment. It used to be probably
• 29:08
  Speaker 6: we thought, oh, taking cute wolf pups or something like
• 29:11
  Speaker 6: that was probably how it happened. But this is unlikely.
• 29:14
  Speaker 6: It's hard for us to think through the process of
• 29:19
  Speaker 6: domestication with dogs. They're the first domesticated anything, first domesticated animal, plant, anything,
• 29:25
  Speaker 6: first concept of domestication is dogs. So prior to dog domestication,
• 29:31
  Speaker 6: we have no concept of what kind of a domestic sphere, plant,
• 29:36
  Speaker 6: or animal would look like. Right, So the idea that
• 29:39
  Speaker 6: people intentionally domesticate a dog without any concept of what
• 29:45
  Speaker 6: domestication would mean is unlikely.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: And I think that's that's a cool point. I never
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: thought about that, how they had no plants yet, No,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: not so, Yeah, they were like, I'm gonna do with
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: this raccoon like we did with our dog.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: But it's a.
• 30:01
  Speaker 6: Domino effect after that. Right after the first thing is domesticated,
• 30:05
  Speaker 6: then they're like, oh shit, look at all these things
• 30:08
  Speaker 6: out here. But horses, cows, goats, sheep, donkey. I mean,
• 30:14
  Speaker 6: then they just go for it right. Then after that,
• 30:16
  Speaker 6: it's just a slew of animals that are domesticated one
• 30:19
  Speaker 6: after the other, mostly livestock animals, but also domesticating a
• 30:23
  Speaker 6: dangerous carnivore like that. That's not intentional, right, Why are
• 30:27
  Speaker 6: you gonna go out take some time? Why are you
• 30:29
  Speaker 6: gonna go out and be like, you know what I'm
• 30:30
  Speaker 6: gonna I'm gonna domesticate. I don't know what domestication is,
• 30:33
  Speaker 6: but this is what we're gonna do. And you know what,
• 30:36
  Speaker 6: do you know where we're starting. We're not starting with
• 30:38
  Speaker 6: the juicy horses. We are starting with the wolf. This is,
• 30:41
  Speaker 6: you know, our dangerous predator competition. Yeah, what you're saying
• 30:46
  Speaker 6: is more likely, Yeah, it is. It's a it's a wolf.
• 30:51
  Speaker 6: We you know, you said you had Beth on the
• 30:53
  Speaker 6: show before. We cannot find have not found the wolf
• 30:58
  Speaker 6: population from which it comes. Not it's not our gray wolves.
• 31:01
  Speaker 6: It's a gray wolf ancestor. But whatever lineage dogs come
• 31:05
  Speaker 6: from that gray wolf ancestor is most likely not with
• 31:09
  Speaker 6: us anymore extinct, but very closely related to to our
• 31:13
  Speaker 6: modern gray wolves. They are wolves.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Though, well, how how many? How many I was gonna
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: say how many canines or do we have globally? But
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: that's not very helpful because then you get into like
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: kit foxes and right, how many if you look, so
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: there's an African wild dog, right and you have what's
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: that one in in Australia.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Those are domesticated, right, but they can live without people?
• 31:45
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so dingoes. So dingoes are domesticated dogs that arrive
• 31:49
  Speaker 6: with the first peoples in Australia and.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Then oh okay, so they arrived with people.
• 31:53
  Speaker 6: They arrive and then they're like, we're out of here.
• 31:56
  Speaker 6: They head off to the outback or wherever in Australia.
• 31:58
  Speaker 6: So they are far dogs in many ways. But this
• 32:02
  Speaker 6: is a debate.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: But they're a wolf, yeah, I mean, I mean sorry,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: they are Okay, they're originally from a wolf, right.
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: Weirdly dingos are classifieds like vulnerable or threatened. Strikes me strange.
• 32:15
  Speaker 6: It's an interesting debate in Australia right now about dingoes
• 32:17
  Speaker 6: that you know, some people would like to classify them
• 32:20
  Speaker 6: as a pest species. They're just a dog that's gone feral.
• 32:24
  Speaker 6: They're feral dogs. They're destroying everything. But others say, like,
• 32:27
  Speaker 6: maybe they are a dog, a domesticated dog, but they've
• 32:30
  Speaker 6: been in many ways rewilded. They've been alone for thousands
• 32:34
  Speaker 6: and thousands of years, and they effectively act as a
• 32:37
  Speaker 6: wild animal.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because the ancestral Australians arrived there forty thousand.
• 32:43
  Speaker 6: Years ago, right, they would have not arrived forty thousand
• 32:46
  Speaker 6: years ago, they would have been there I think five
• 32:50
  Speaker 6: thousand years the.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Dog, Yeah, the dog dogs later wave a later.
• 32:54
  Speaker 6: Wave of people. So, but you know, five thousand years
• 32:57
  Speaker 6: kind of hanging out on their own. Also, the New
• 32:59
  Speaker 6: Guinea singing dog very closely related to dingoes in New Guinea,
• 33:03
  Speaker 6: totally totally isolated, domesticated dog, but has been isolated alone
• 33:08
  Speaker 6: for thousands and thousands of functions as a wild animal.
• 33:11
  Speaker 6: Is a domesticated dog functions as a wild animal?
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: When you did anyone, I'm trying to go back real
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: deep here for a minute, and then I'm gonna jump
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: away into the future. When in the in the during
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: the African diaspora, was anybody packing dogs?
• 33:32
  Speaker 6: No, no, no, no, we don't have So the paper
• 33:36
  Speaker 6: that I wrote, Dave Meltzer proposed that domestication of dogs
• 33:42
  Speaker 6: probably happened in Siberia around twenty three thousand years ago.
• 33:49
  Speaker 6: What we're always missing. When I'm like laying in bed
• 33:51
  Speaker 6: at night as an archaeologist thinking about dogs, what I
• 33:54
  Speaker 6: think about is like, why, right, we're hanging out with
• 33:57
  Speaker 6: wolves for tens of thousands of years the landscape hunting
• 34:02
  Speaker 6: alongside them, predators just like us, daylight hunters who form
• 34:07
  Speaker 6: packs to take down animals larger than ourselves. Very very similar.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: We're calling us daylight hunters.
• 34:13
  Speaker 6: I mean, you could be a nighttime hunter if you want.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: But that's what Yeah, Okay, I just got I didn't
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: know if you're talking about you're talking about so humans
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: being like daylight pack.
• 34:21
  Speaker 6: Hunters, very similar to wolves. Right, we have a similar
• 34:24
  Speaker 6: social structure, we take care of each other as young.
• 34:27
  Speaker 6: We're very similar to wolves and lots of ways, and
• 34:29
  Speaker 6: we would have seen and known wolves on the landscape
• 34:32
  Speaker 6: for tens of thousands of years prior to domestication. So
• 34:35
  Speaker 6: the question is why, now? What what drives domestication to occur?
• 34:41
  Speaker 6: So going back to your idea of was it an
• 34:44
  Speaker 6: accident that they domesticate themselves around that time, and lots
• 34:48
  Speaker 6: of parts of the world we had pretty crap climate
• 34:51
  Speaker 6: stuff happening right the LGN, the last Glacial Maximum, not
• 34:55
  Speaker 6: a nice time to hang out in a lot of
• 34:56
  Speaker 6: parts of Eurasia. So we have populations of hunter gatherers
• 35:00
  Speaker 6: wore essentially kind of isolated in Siberia, so they kind
• 35:03
  Speaker 6: of get stuck there. There's a refugeia of some decent
• 35:07
  Speaker 6: kind of climate and locations up there, but moving between
• 35:11
  Speaker 6: that and the rest of your Asia would have been
• 35:14
  Speaker 6: kind of nasty time, so they kind of isolate up there.
• 35:17
  Speaker 6: I don't know how long they've been up there, for
• 35:18
  Speaker 6: thousands of years, though two to nine thousand years they're
• 35:21
  Speaker 6: hanging up.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: Can I point out that I'm quite envious of those people.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: They got to hunt the woodly rhinoceros right exactly. So
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: they're up there, which is just if you're going to
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: do something cool, that's about the epitome of coolness.
• 35:34
  Speaker 6: So they're up there with these populations of animals who
• 35:37
  Speaker 6: are also up there in this kind of refugium, but
• 35:40
  Speaker 6: also wolves. Wolves are kind of isolated up there with
• 35:42
  Speaker 6: them as well, so they become less mobile in this
• 35:47
  Speaker 6: kind of smaller area than they're used to, And something
• 35:52
  Speaker 6: like that has to be the driver. There has to
• 35:54
  Speaker 6: be some reason that dogs become domesticated. And probably, as
• 35:58
  Speaker 6: you were saying, they're hunting, they're leaving scraps around, and
• 36:02
  Speaker 6: some group of wolves somewhere decided, you know what, today's
• 36:07
  Speaker 6: the day. I'm not gonna risk everything and go out
• 36:10
  Speaker 6: and hunt this deer or wool urine or something like
• 36:13
  Speaker 6: that on my own. Why would I do that when
• 36:16
  Speaker 6: it's much easier.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Scraps, right, competitors too, wouldn't.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: They, right?
• 36:22
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's much easy.
• 36:24
  Speaker 7: One of them scavenged off the other and figured it out. Yeah, right.
• 36:27
  Speaker 6: And so you know people in Alaska right now, lots
• 36:30
  Speaker 6: of parts of the world, Russia deal with us all
• 36:32
  Speaker 6: the time, right, So there are dangerous predators who hang out.
• 36:36
  Speaker 6: Bears are around, lots of village sce. People don't run
• 36:39
  Speaker 6: them off anymore. They just learn to live alongside. They're
• 36:43
  Speaker 6: going through the trash. They're not really bothering anyone. They're
• 36:46
  Speaker 6: just doing their thing. Humans like, as long as they
• 36:50
  Speaker 6: don't bother us, we won't bother them. This kind of
• 36:52
  Speaker 6: like symbiotic relationship of they eat our trash and don't
• 36:55
  Speaker 6: bother us, that's fine. We could see that happening with
• 36:57
  Speaker 6: wolves where you know, you butcher some kind of mammoth
• 37:01
  Speaker 6: or something like that. You take what you want, You
• 37:03
  Speaker 6: go back to your campsite. You don't really care if
• 37:05
  Speaker 6: the wolves are scavenging off the leftovers, as long as
• 37:07
  Speaker 6: they don't bother you, and they're kind of at an
• 37:09
  Speaker 6: arms distance. Why bother them, right? And so what ends
• 37:13
  Speaker 6: up happening is that, you know, wolves have culture. Wolves
• 37:17
  Speaker 6: learn to hunt from their parents and other pac members.
• 37:20
  Speaker 6: And when you have generations of wolves that have no
• 37:22
  Speaker 6: longer no longer hunt, right, they're scavengers. Now, then what
• 37:27
  Speaker 6: do they teach their young to be scavengers? And then
• 37:30
  Speaker 6: they're young or scavengers And then eventually you have generations
• 37:33
  Speaker 6: of wolves have never hunted. They only know scavenging, so
• 37:37
  Speaker 6: going back to a hunting lifestyle is not as easy
• 37:39
  Speaker 6: for them, and they only know a scavenging lifestyle. And
• 37:42
  Speaker 6: eventually you kind of narrow that population down to this
• 37:46
  Speaker 6: population of wolves that are scavengers who are comfortable living
• 37:50
  Speaker 6: alongside humans. And then that's just like righte for becoming
• 37:54
  Speaker 6: a dog.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: How long would something like that take?
• 37:57
  Speaker 6: I mean, would only take a few generations, right to
• 38:00
  Speaker 6: get wolves that have never hunted before?
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Not Yeah, well, how did it backfill? See, I
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: thought the answer is gonna be different because you're talking
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: about these these pre agriculture cave art or rock art.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Is it is it? Petro? What the hell? Witch is witch?
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Petro?
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: And pictol which pitographs or petroglyphs pictographs Aret, that's a
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: chiseling noise. Yeah, and this is petroglyphs. So it backfilled.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: It went in reverse, meaning humans were in Saudi Arabia
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: long before they were in Siberia. And if the technology
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: did I just say, yeah, humans were in Saudi Arabia
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: long before they were in Siberia. So if the technology
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: emerged in Siberia, it's somehow also yeah, yeah, so like
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: it transferred. Yeah, not just the direction that people were
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: that some people were.
• 39:08
  Speaker 6: Flowing, it would have dispersed. So if we're right about Siberia,
• 39:12
  Speaker 6: you have dogs essentially being domesticated there on their own accord.
• 39:18
  Speaker 6: And then once the lgm's kind of nasty climatic thing
• 39:21
  Speaker 6: simmers down and we get into the Holo scene, then
• 39:24
  Speaker 6: people disperse. So the ancestors of Native Americans they make
• 39:27
  Speaker 6: their way across the Beringian land Bridge into the Americas.
• 39:31
  Speaker 6: But also that population disperses back down into the rest
• 39:34
  Speaker 6: of Eurasia and Arabia and everywhere else across the world.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: When those first Americans, whenever I talk about BRINGI hoards
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: like to point this out, is that people no one
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: and maybe you'll disagree, no one in Siberia woke up
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: one day and said, fred, let's go to America. Okay.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: They hadn't been there, they didn't know what was there.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: And I feel that the generations of generations of humans
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: would have lived and died in what is now the
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: Bearing Sea. Yep, right, you were not. You were moving along,
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: and you know some day you go like, let's go
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: check the next valley. Oh that's pretty sweet. All the
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: stuff there has like no idea what we are, and
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: you just kind of walk up and kill it. And
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: the next day you're like, let's go over to the
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: next valley, no concept of that you're heading anywhere. And
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: it was a huge land.
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: Mass six hundred miles wide, which is as Montana.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so be that that you would have people who
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: were born, You would have had people born and died
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: on this chunk of ground that's underwater now in the
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: shallow sea. So if you have a domestication event in Siberia.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: By the time people get to what is now Alaska, Yep,
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: are their dogs still are? Are Are there dogs still
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: making love to the new wolves they're finding in Alaska? Like?
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: How are you not constantly updating what the hell of
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: dog is by every every like genotype of every genotype
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: of this almost like pan.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: Global wolf you are.
• 41:29
  Speaker 6: So we like to say domestication is process, not an event,
• 41:33
  Speaker 6: because domestication also starts, stops, has dead ends, maybe started
• 41:40
  Speaker 6: up in other places and then petered out. No, it's
• 41:44
  Speaker 6: not working. Taming these wolves not working out for us,
• 41:48
  Speaker 6: and then that that kind of lineage of tamed wolves
• 41:54
  Speaker 6: semi possibly domesticated dogs kind of you know Peter's off,
• 41:58
  Speaker 6: these are the ones that worked.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: So when you let's let's say you get to the
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: point where we'll just do there's two So there's two
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: things I'd like you to get into to help try
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: to explain. Eventually you have across north So so you
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: have the first Americans come in and they very quickly
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: just explode southward. And then later you have this wave
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: of people who were possibly more Japanese illusion and they
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: exploited like marine resources and had composite toolkits for harvesting
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: whales and shit, and they come across the north of
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Alaska very different, like very different people had dogs. And
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: then so you get to where Stephenson in the early
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds is going in like Coronation golf, and he's
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: finding people with dogs who have had not had interactions
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: with Europeans. A century earlier, you have Lewis and Clark
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: come onto the Great Plains and they're finding nomadic bison
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: hunters with huge packs of dogs which they're using eating.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: These things look nothing alike. Yep, how is all that happening?
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, because they're not buying dogs from they're not
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: buying dogs from Europe.
• 43:31
  Speaker 6: No where dogs go, people go, So anywhere people went
• 43:35
  Speaker 6: in America's dogs are going right. And eventually, just like humans,
• 43:39
  Speaker 6: these groups of dogs breed only with each other, and
• 43:43
  Speaker 6: eventually you get independent lineages of dogs that are very different.
• 43:46
  Speaker 6: You know, a dog that you're using as a water
• 43:49
  Speaker 6: dog ends up looking very different than a dog you're
• 43:51
  Speaker 6: using to hunt bison, and looks very different than a
• 43:54
  Speaker 6: dog that you're using to hunt white tail deer and
• 43:56
  Speaker 6: bore looks very different from a dog that's a sled
• 43:59
  Speaker 6: dog that's pulling you across the Canadian Arctic, and so
• 44:02
  Speaker 6: these things can happen fairly rapidly. You're just saying, like,
• 44:06
  Speaker 6: you know, you want a dog that is good at
• 44:09
  Speaker 6: being in the water and has a better coat, and
• 44:11
  Speaker 6: blah blah blah. You just just make it. Just kick
• 44:14
  Speaker 6: out the ones you don't want out of that line,
• 44:17
  Speaker 6: and you know you get one that has a really
• 44:19
  Speaker 6: good coat that you like, you breed that one, and eventually,
• 44:22
  Speaker 6: you know, you get a dog that does what you
• 44:25
  Speaker 6: want it to do, is.
• 44:26
  Speaker 7: Bringing for characteristics, right, characteristics in traits.
• 44:31
  Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, so you know up north they need dogs
• 44:34
  Speaker 6: that are pulling sleds and have a certain physiology and
• 44:38
  Speaker 6: have certain types of foot pads that are good for
• 44:41
  Speaker 6: pulling and certain types of oxygen intake at higher altitudes,
• 44:47
  Speaker 6: and that's what they breed for. And like the first
• 44:50
  Speaker 6: i mean the first population of dogs, that initial population
• 44:54
  Speaker 6: of wolves, if they kind of self domesticated, right, that
• 44:57
  Speaker 6: population naturally gets cold down, right, Say one of those
• 45:01
  Speaker 6: wolves decides like, you know what, I'm gonna wander into
• 45:04
  Speaker 6: that village today and I'm gonna take a little snap.
• 45:06
  Speaker 6: But a toddler that wolf, it is not in that
• 45:08
  Speaker 6: population for very long, right, humans make sure like nope, cold,
• 45:12
  Speaker 6: all right, that guy and his bad attitude are gone
• 45:15
  Speaker 6: no longer in that population. And it's the same thing
• 45:19
  Speaker 6: for dogs across the early Americas. You know, this dog sucks,
• 45:23
  Speaker 6: it doesn't hunt, it's not doing what we want done.
• 45:26
  Speaker 6: Out of the population, right, has nice fur though, could
• 45:33
  Speaker 6: you use that?
• 45:33
  Speaker 7: Right?
• 45:33
  Speaker 6: So, so you have these dogs being cold and cold
• 45:36
  Speaker 6: and cold and cold. We're working on a paper now,
• 45:39
  Speaker 6: cold cold cold, cold, cold cold.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: Pin which you know Danny. We're just up at the
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: fish shack and Danny was telling me he saw or
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: someone was selling firewood in Alaska. I can't he what
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: part where he was, but someone was selling firewood and
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: kindling were they just cut to it. It's spelled k
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: I n l I n kim, which says killing. They're
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: just like, I'm like, you know what, I'm not getting
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: the d involved anymore. D's out Kinlin. That's South Alaska.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: G Yeah, he says it's k I N l I N.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: He knew exactly what they were talking about. Saved on
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: paint on the sign anyways, go ahead, yeah, so.
• 46:21
  Speaker 6: Cold cold cold, Yeah, I mean, you know.
• 46:25
  Speaker 7: I mean, I honestly think somebody should explain cold because
• 46:28
  Speaker 7: I bet you a lot of people don't really know.
• 46:30
  Speaker 6: Go ahead, are you volunteering, Well, tell us you're the archaeologist.
• 46:34
  Speaker 7: But I know more about culling. Probably it's the process
• 46:37
  Speaker 7: of taking something that's not desirable and killing it as
• 46:41
  Speaker 7: it and usually in its infant stage. You don't usually
• 46:44
  Speaker 7: wait till they're find out if they're two years old
• 46:47
  Speaker 7: and they're practical to use. That process has been done
• 46:50
  Speaker 7: with domestic dogs for years because you could see if
• 46:54
  Speaker 7: you're looking for a standard size or a standard coat,
• 46:58
  Speaker 7: and you'll see puppy differences and be like, oh wow,
• 47:01
  Speaker 7: that one's tiny.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: You know that just because it's a resource thing, right,
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: It's like.
• 47:06
  Speaker 7: We're only going to have the feet eight of them
• 47:08
  Speaker 7: if everything works out right. And that one that's really big.
• 47:12
  Speaker 7: That reminds me of the dog that the neighbor had
• 47:15
  Speaker 7: from twenty years ago, the one that was killing things.
• 47:18
  Speaker 7: Big ones out. So they try to keep it to
• 47:21
  Speaker 7: a standard basically, And I'm sure they did that back
• 47:23
  Speaker 7: in the day. You know, they they could tell. And
• 47:26
  Speaker 7: the neat thing about those people are they would have
• 47:29
  Speaker 7: kept those dogs around to observe them as they're growing up,
• 47:32
  Speaker 7: because dogs are like kids, but they grow up in
• 47:35
  Speaker 7: twelve months kind of. So you might see that behavior
• 47:39
  Speaker 7: of a really aggressive one it's six months and they
• 47:41
  Speaker 7: would probably still call it there because they still want
• 47:43
  Speaker 7: the milder temperament dog, you know. They so yeah, but
• 47:47
  Speaker 7: I just didn't I know you were saying that, and
• 47:49
  Speaker 7: I wanted people to like, we're talking about yeah, selective breeding.
• 47:55
  Speaker 7: It's a selective killing.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.
• 48:08
  Speaker 7: Uh.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: In France's Apartment's the Oregon Trail. So there's a historian
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: named France's Apartment and he wrote one of the He
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: wrote what would become one of the early definitive histories
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: of the French and Indian War. He had, you know,
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: what was the disease that you send everybody out west?
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: The doctors has head like go to an arid climate,
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: go to an arid climate, TV something like that. So
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: he went out and I think it was an eighteen
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: thirty four France's Apartment, went out onto the Great Plains
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: and then later wrote a book called The Oregon Trail.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: They think that he was he was probably so he
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: spent a bunch of time with you, Aglala Sue was
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: probably in Crazy Horses camp when Crazy Horse was thirteen
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: years old. He one day goes into I think he
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: goes into a trading post and Laramie, wy what's now Laramie, Wyoming.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: I think he was in Laramie and he's invited to
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: dinner in a Sioue Famili's So in Aglala Sue family's tepee,
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: he's invited to dinner. All their puppies are in the teepee. Okay,
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: so you've hit a level of familiarity and care where
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: the female dog is nursing her puppies inside.
• 49:32
  Speaker 7: Like the first house dog.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which, like so it paints a picture, right, I
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: mean you have it's like it's it's not a huge space,
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: but you're giving that space as litter of puppies, which
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: demonstrates this level of familiarity and care. But here's Francis Parton.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: He's a he's a guest. A woman goes over sorts
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: through that little collection of puppies that is inside the teepee,
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: thumps one in the head and cooks it for him.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: So it's like this real you know what I mean.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: It's just it's it's like this real collision of two.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: It's a collision of two attitudes about dogs. It's really interesting. Right, Well,
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: they're inside, right, We're gonna take care of them and
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: make sure that whatever nothing kills all the puppies. But
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: but I mean, come on, dog is good. Yeah, I
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: mean yeah, So like these, you know, you get these
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: glimpses into these very complicated these these like complicated contradictory relationships. Yeah.
• 50:29
  Speaker 6: I mean, some of the sites that I was working
• 50:33
  Speaker 6: on for my when I was writing my dissertation were
• 50:36
  Speaker 6: super interesting because you have clearly hunting camps together, sites
• 50:42
  Speaker 6: where you have elaborate burials of dogs which must be
• 50:47
  Speaker 6: hunting dogs, are bearing them with hunting implements and red
• 50:51
  Speaker 6: deer antlers and very elaborate points and things like that,
• 50:56
  Speaker 6: and with covered with red ochre and really in these
• 50:58
  Speaker 6: like very elaborate burials, it looks just like a human burial.
• 51:02
  Speaker 6: By the next door, you got a bunch of butcher
• 51:04
  Speaker 6: dogs that they've clearly been eating in the trash pile.
• 51:06
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 51:07
  Speaker 6: So there you clearly have these like camp, same camp,
• 51:12
  Speaker 6: same camp. So you have dogs that are you know,
• 51:15
  Speaker 6: and we probably have that a version of that, we're
• 51:18
  Speaker 6: not butchering them and throwing them a trash pile. But
• 51:20
  Speaker 6: we have versions of this right where we have you know,
• 51:23
  Speaker 6: if you're a hunter and you have hunting dogs, and
• 51:24
  Speaker 6: you've got that like prized hunting dogs, and then you
• 51:28
  Speaker 6: got the kind of you know, someone was telling me
• 51:30
  Speaker 6: in a bar yesterday at Ted's we had this German
• 51:33
  Speaker 6: shorthaird pointer like great hopes for it scared scared of guns.
• 51:38
  Speaker 6: Now it's a couch potato, right, it's not. But then
• 51:41
  Speaker 6: they have another dog that's just like an amazing hunting dog.
• 51:45
  Speaker 6: So you know, you get this these levels also of
• 51:49
  Speaker 6: you know where that dog falls in the pack, and
• 51:52
  Speaker 6: we think, you know, as an archaeologist, I think about
• 51:55
  Speaker 6: humans as another animal on the landscape. We're just another
• 51:59
  Speaker 6: animal the landscape, and a dog is our greatest technology.
• 52:05
  Speaker 6: If you're a hunter gather and you're using dogs for hunting,
• 52:08
  Speaker 6: and in many ways, if you're a hunter gather, you know,
• 52:13
  Speaker 6: ten thousand years ago, a dog is much more valuable
• 52:17
  Speaker 6: to you than another human hunter. Right, So when I
• 52:20
  Speaker 6: was hunting boar in Japan, we would enter these dense,
• 52:24
  Speaker 6: dense forests. No way we're going to track a boar,
• 52:28
  Speaker 6: but the dogs.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: Right when you're talking about you. Yeah, okay, so tell
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: me about this now.
• 52:33
  Speaker 6: So part of my PhD where I was in Japan
• 52:35
  Speaker 6: working with hunters and hunters in Japan trying to see
• 52:38
  Speaker 6: how they use their dogs to bar there in some
• 52:42
  Speaker 6: of these really really dense forests. You know, you can't
• 52:45
  Speaker 6: see two feet in front of you because the forests
• 52:47
  Speaker 6: are so dense, And the rise of hunting dogs in
• 52:51
  Speaker 6: our kind of archaeological pass is most likely tied to
• 52:56
  Speaker 6: the beginning of the Holocene period somewhere between ten and
• 52:59
  Speaker 6: twelve thousand years ago, when we kind of move out
• 53:02
  Speaker 6: of this time of having more open forests and polar
• 53:05
  Speaker 6: tundras and the deciduous forests start coming into the northern latitudes,
• 53:09
  Speaker 6: and forests start getting really really dense, and the animals
• 53:12
  Speaker 6: move from these huge megafauna you know, mammoth and masdons
• 53:18
  Speaker 6: that we see out on an open plane, to like
• 53:20
  Speaker 6: super fast white tailed deer and boor who a moving
• 53:23
  Speaker 6: through a dark dense forest?
• 53:25
  Speaker 7: Right, got it?
• 53:26
  Speaker 6: We're humans. We're not usually tracking a white tailed deer
• 53:30
  Speaker 6: through a dark dense forest.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: Can I throw something into that?
• 53:33
  Speaker 6: You tell me?
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: I think that you're also starting to see that they've
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: had that your people are living in encountering animals that
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: have had more experience with humans, right, Yeah, I mean
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: I've brought this up before, but there was a time
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: when there was the first person. I don't know who
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: he was, I'd love to meet him. There was the
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: first person that ever saw a rattlesnake, and that person
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: had lived hundreds of generations in the absence of venomous
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: snakes yep. Or there was the first man. There was
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: the first person that ever walked up to a mastadon,
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: and the masdon maybe just stood there. Yeah, because aland
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: doesn't seem that big. What's it doing? Right? And then
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: after a while you get where stuff has kind of
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: a has a different attitude, and you might be looking
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: for new ways of dealing with these new attitudes. Ye,
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: but we're anywhere they catch a smell on the wind
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: and they're gone, Yeah, yeah.
• 54:34
  Speaker 6: But we're also dealing with that.
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 54:36
  Speaker 6: So, generations before you were Macedon hunters on open planes.
• 54:43
  Speaker 6: Every technology you built was for that. Everything you've taught
• 54:47
  Speaker 6: generations after you is for how you go hunt a
• 54:49
  Speaker 6: macedon on an open plane. Now you have dense forests
• 54:53
  Speaker 6: coming in quickly, pray species are changing. They're becoming these
• 54:57
  Speaker 6: kind of mezso prey species, smaller, medium sized prices. Is
• 55:02
  Speaker 6: very very quick and moving through a dense forest. That
• 55:05
  Speaker 6: takes a different type of hunting, different types of tools,
• 55:08
  Speaker 6: different types of technology. Dogs are really good at that.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: I had no idea they hunted boars with dogs in Japan. Yeah,
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: so what happened when you went? How did it go?
• 55:20
  Speaker 6: I mean the dogs? The dogs do most of it, right, Yeah,
• 55:25
  Speaker 6: I mean so it was interesting. I love debates about
• 55:30
  Speaker 6: about hunting with dogs, modern hunting with dogs, because when
• 55:34
  Speaker 6: I talk to hunters who don't use dogs, not for
• 55:36
  Speaker 6: like birding or something like that, but hunting deer, boar
• 55:39
  Speaker 6: or something like that, they say, there's no sport to
• 55:41
  Speaker 6: it hunting with dogs. Sheeting, right, it's too easy. It's
• 55:45
  Speaker 6: too easy. If your hunter gather ten thousand years ago.
• 55:48
  Speaker 6: It's exactly what you want you want it to be.
• 55:51
  Speaker 6: It's not a sport subsistence hunting, you know.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: But even out, I mean, this is a subject for
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: a different thing.
• 55:57
  Speaker 7: I would love.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: I would love the debate with one of these people.
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: How it's not easy, because the thing I always like
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: to bring out to people is if you could measure
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: hunting knowledge and like bits the way you might measure
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: information in your computer in a drive to successfully use dogs,
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: meaning selecting, breeding, caring for training, someone who can effectively
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: use a dog to get a big game animal. It
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: holds more bits of holds vastly more bits of information
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: in their head than is required to shoot a deer
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: coming into an egg field. It's just like you might
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: find one to be more fun or less fun. But
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: don't get into me this idea that it's easier or
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: cheating to pull that off, because that's not easy to
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: pull off. That takes lifetimes of dedication. You might like,
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: you might have other problems with it, but the easy
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: thing come on. So it's is not true.
• 56:58
  Speaker 6: I debate this a lot with a colleague of mine,
• 57:00
  Speaker 6: Jeremy Coster. He's a professor at Cincinnati and he works
• 57:04
  Speaker 6: with indigenous mosquito on my Younga people hunting in Nicaragua
• 57:08
  Speaker 6: and Jeremy Coster mosquito in Myyungna. So in Nicaragua where
• 57:16
  Speaker 6: they're they're horticulturalists, but they still the primary meat is
• 57:20
  Speaker 6: coming from subsistence hunting in these like neotropical forests, pretty
• 57:24
  Speaker 6: pretty dense kind of tropical forests, and so we debate
• 57:29
  Speaker 6: a lot about they use hunting dogs there. Their dogs
• 57:32
  Speaker 6: are not really trained. It's they come out one they
• 57:36
  Speaker 6: might get killed by a jaguar. Some ways, that's good
• 57:39
  Speaker 6: for you because it's killing your dog is not killing you,
• 57:41
  Speaker 6: so that's all right. But a lot of them get
• 57:44
  Speaker 6: lost to jaguars or snake bites. A lot of them
• 57:47
  Speaker 6: are just clearly not up for it. But then you
• 57:49
  Speaker 6: get some small population of dogs who are really good
• 57:52
  Speaker 6: at it and then teach other dogs. But there he
• 57:56
  Speaker 6: he does a lot of calculations of tracking, cost benefit
• 58:00
  Speaker 6: analyzes of using dogs and return rates using dogs versus
• 58:05
  Speaker 6: not using dogs. The issue there is he's got a
• 58:08
  Speaker 6: dense forest and he's got probably twenty or thirty animals
• 58:12
  Speaker 6: in that forest that that dog could go after. And
• 58:15
  Speaker 6: you don't know when your dog goes off and it's
• 58:18
  Speaker 6: barking and it's gone, if it's going after a forest
• 58:21
  Speaker 6: rat or a brocket deer. And you have to debate
• 58:25
  Speaker 6: whether the time lost in tracking down your dog for
• 58:30
  Speaker 6: four hours if it caught a rat, is worth it,
• 58:34
  Speaker 6: right or does it have a deer And you don't
• 58:38
  Speaker 6: know right, so you can lose a lot of time
• 58:40
  Speaker 6: and an environment like that. If you're a hunter gather
• 58:43
  Speaker 6: in a forest in northern US or Germany or the UK,
• 58:52
  Speaker 6: your idea of what your dog is going after is
• 58:55
  Speaker 6: a much smaller breadth of praise species. Right, So you
• 59:00
  Speaker 6: could have thirty things, of which twenty five you don't
• 59:03
  Speaker 6: care about, or you could have a force in which
• 59:06
  Speaker 6: if your dog's going after something, it's probably something you
• 59:10
  Speaker 6: want to kill an eat.
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: Right, John, he's got it narrow down to one thing.
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm trying to truest to chase mountain lions and bobcats, raccoons.
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: All three things. Never mind, he's got narrowed down three things.
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: But there has been a lot of narrowing down, you know,
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: a lot of teaching him what not to chase.
• 59:33
  Speaker 6: Right, And how much time does that take? Kind of
• 59:35
  Speaker 6: effort does it take.
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: We're not done. We're three years in roughly. Yeah, lots
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: of time.
• 59:44
  Speaker 6: This is the debate of like, as an ancient hunter gatherer,
• 59:46
  Speaker 6: spending three years training a dog. Probably not. It's probably
• 59:51
  Speaker 6: a game of nope, nope, nope, Oh, this one's all right,
• 59:56
  Speaker 6: all right.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: He gets the red ocre the red, Yeah, exactly exactly.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 6: So you know, this is the this is the bait
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 6: we have. Do we breed the good one with another
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 6: good one from the village next door, produce some good pups.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 6: Then you go from there. That litter produces eight pups.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 6: Of those eight pups, six of them duds, two of them.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: All right, I need to I want to just really
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: quickly get back to this Japanese thing. How many how
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: many bores did you guys get?
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 6: We got? Well we went out for weeks, so.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: Oh so you're really putting some time into it.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 6: Yeah, we're tracking. We had GPS callers on the dogs
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 6: trying to track, like where they went, how long it
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 6: took them.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: They have chase dogs and catch dogs.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 6: The chase dogs were the catch dogs there.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: So they track it and hold it down.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 6: Yeah, track and hold. They have the full vests and everything.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 6: Though those boar aren't messing around.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: So then they come in and kill with a knife.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 6: I mean so basically this is what we did. We
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 6: get to the edge of the forest, right, super dense,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 6: and I'm thinking, how we look for the tree that
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 6: has you know, the rubbing on it, Like, okay, there
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 6: there's somewhere. Dogs sniffs the tree looks at us. All right,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 6: we'll go he's got the scent. There they go, tracking
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 6: them on GPS callers, where are they going? You can
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 6: hear them, they're they're barking to each other, tracking each
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 6: other where they're going. You can you can hear them
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 6: going up the mountain. You can kind of hear where
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 6: where the barks are coming. And you can hear when
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 6: they get the scent that they're close, because then they're barking.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 6: Really you know, it's increasing. And then you can tell
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 6: when they got them. You know they're doing that that.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 8: Go go.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 6: And then you're just like, all right, here's where the
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 6: humans step in and we do the real hard work,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 6: right we so we track them down and then kill them. Right,
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 6: But this is an interest.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: So did you take a real like into that or
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: was just work for you?
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 6: I mean, it's it's fun, right, It's interesting to see
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 6: the process. I'm an oargist. I see the dead animals
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 6: on the ground, right, I need to know how does
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 6: this work in reality? How you know? What are I
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 6: try to think through? How what are the places that
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 6: things go wrong? Where does the path split in a hunt?
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 6: Where a choice could go this way or this way?
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 6: You know, a lot of people in archaeology talk about
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 6: hunter choice, hunter prey choice, and what we decide to do,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 6: what we decided not to do. But when I've been
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 6: hunting with dogs, we're not the ones who decide what
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 6: animal you go after. We're the ones to decide if
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 6: you kill it or not, but we're not the ones
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 6: deciding on animal you go after. So when we talk
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 6: about you know, humans in the past ten thousand years
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 6: ago always killed males or females, or ones this size
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 6: or ones over here. A lot of that if you're
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 6: using a dog to hunt, was decided by the dog.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 6: We decide whether you kill it or not, but prey
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 6: choice is largely decided by what animal the dog goes after.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 6: And so you know, we they're lily going after females
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 6: with young, regularly going after males that are running or
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 6: on their own, sick, old, injured. You know, these are
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 6: the animals that that dogs are going after, over and
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 6: over and over.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. You might find tune it.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: You might find tune it on species, but it's pretty
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: hard to find tune it on. Go get me a big.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 4: Male, Yeah, go get the big one.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: Go ahead.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 4: Have you ever found any crossover of ancient cultures that
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: used falcons and dogs.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so I worked in Kazakhstan. In Kazakhstan, they're using
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 6: birds of prey, dogs and horses. It's a three prong approach, right.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: And how old do you think that? Like three prong approach.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 6: Is pretty old? I mean horse domestication. Trying to track
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 6: down right now, exactly when horse domestication happened in Central
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 6: Asia somewhere most likely, but yeah, thousands and thousands of
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 6: years ago. So it was interesting in Kazakhstan. Problem for
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 6: me is an archaeologist to use his ancient DNA.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 9: You know.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 6: When I was in Kazakhstan, I would talk to the
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 6: local people who are still hunting with falcons and horses
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 6: and dogs. And I was in a tiny, tiny little
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 6: museum in the middle of nowhere, and I saw this
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 6: picture of hunters and they had their horses, they had
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 6: their falcons, and they had their dogs, and they had
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 6: two wolf pups. So Kazakhstan has one of the largest
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 6: wolf populations in the world. You don't really think about
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 6: Kazakhstan being a place where tons of wolves. There they
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 6: had these two live wolf pups and I was asking
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 6: them the guy that we.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: Were with, and then the painting, the wolf puffs looked
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: different than the dogs.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 6: Yeah, they're clearly wolf. I mean it's a photo. It
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 6: was a it was a black white photo. So they
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 6: had these two live wolf pups that they'd tracked. They'd
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 6: been on horses with their falcons and their dogs and
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 6: they'd tracked these two wolf puffs and they caught them live, right,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 6: And so I said to them what are they why?
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 6: At first, well, why are they going after wolves? And
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 6: what are they going to do with them live? I said, Oh,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 6: they'll breed them to their dogs.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, put a little extra pap in them.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 6: And I was like, I was like, what are they
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 6: tell me more? And I said, well, you breed your
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 6: dogs with wolves to fight off the wolves. You know,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 6: I'm an archaeologist though, and I'm thinking, you know, we
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 6: study ancient DNA try to figure out, you know, the
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 6: genetics of dogs, and I'm.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: Thinking, what night, Yeah, like the fag that is still happening.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 6: Right, No, it's still happening. It's happening all the time.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: They're creating all kinds of noise.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 6: Oh yeah, they're introducing like local wolf genetics into dogs
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 6: and this happens. Ever, happens all over the place. Right.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 6: So there's a dog breed call a sar loose that
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 6: genetically looks like an ancient dog. I love talking about
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 6: people about ancient breeds, ancient dogs and why they look ancient.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 6: And this looks like an ancient dog, but it's not.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 6: It's a recent breed about fifty years old. That they
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 6: just took a wolf in a zoo in Germany and
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 6: bred it with German shepherds something like that and created
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 6: this sar loose. Probably you look.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: At it, and you're looking at I think even genetically.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 6: Genetically because it's genetics. Are a wolf wolf genetics?
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: Right? And so it turned up that bone and a
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: hole in the ground, It would have threw you off.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 6: Bad news, badness, right, So you might get a dog
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 6: that looks ancient. Oh man, this is ancient.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: When you say it looks ancient, you're talking about what
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 3: you see in the DNA.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 6: Like genetically, but also morphologically, I mean, because a dog
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 6: that has recent ancestry of a wolf is gonna morphologically
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 6: look probably a lot like a wolf. But you know,
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 6: we we think what happened with dogs and the reason
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 6: why no one can sort out your question of like why, when, how,
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 6: where when did this all happen? It's probably because dogs,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 6: if they're domesticated in somewhere like Siberia, they're coming back down.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 6: They're coming back down with human populations into Eurasia via
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 6: different right. And of course as they're coming down, they're
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 6: interbreeding with Asian wolves and European wolves and wolves in Germany,
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 6: wolves everywhere, right, And so then they end up looking
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 6: all of them end up looking ancient, but with independent
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 6: local wolf populations being kind of blended in there. And
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 6: so for us genetically and morphologically, it's a nightmare because
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 6: they all look old because they've got these local wolf
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 6: populations being bred into them, these local ancient, local, ancient, local, modern, local,
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 6: historic like wolves and dogs. If you leave a dog out,
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 6: they're gonna hang out with wolves, right, they'll either be
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 6: killed or they'll hang out with wolves. And I mean,
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 6: canids love to interbreed, love to interbreed with each other.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 6: We had some from a site in Illinois that's one
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 6: of the used to be the oldest dogs in the Americas,
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 6: and we had two sites right next to each other,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 6: overlapped in time. But the dogs look very different. Morphologed.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 6: We had these one dogs that the one site had
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 6: these really robust dogs, and then the site twenty kilometers
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 6: away the dogs are much more like grass aisles, so
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 6: kind of thinner, more thin bone dogs. And we were like,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 6: this is the same time period. They're twenty kilometers away
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 6: from each other. That's strange that they would have that
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 6: much variation. We did the genetics of the kind of
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 6: grass style thin dogs and they were Koi dogs, but
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 6: they were buried. They were buried. They're in burials with
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 6: grave goods, but they had very recent coyote ancestry.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: And they were some fashion esteemed or cherished because they
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: had a proper burial.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 6: They had proper burials, are probably being used for hunting.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 6: But like, I don't know much about what a koid
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 6: how you live with the koi dog, but maybe you
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 6: guys you know about koy dogs.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: I kid yesterday and he was telling me all about
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: what you need to do if you want to have
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: a pet coyote.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 6: Okay, right, exactly.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: So, which presumably he learned on YouTube.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: Catch a Crayfish.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: Tell me like all the ins and outs of having
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: pet kyotes, And I was just kind of have listened
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: to what he was telling.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 7: Me, I gotta throw something in so Yanna. You might
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 7: be familiar with the name Delmar Smith with dog training,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 7: maybe Brent. He's he's from Oklahoma, probably one of the
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 7: most famous dog trainers horse person that you've ever met.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 7: And he had kyote pups around the farm when he
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 7: was a kid. And I did an interview with him,
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 7: I don't know, six seven years ago, and he just
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 7: looks at me. He said, wrong, I can take kyle
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 7: pup and teach him what your pointer knows. It's on audio.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 7: So I didn't know about that they could breathe with them,
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 7: but I do know that they could be trained up
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 7: pretty good.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 6: There you go.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: Before we move on, though, I it's one more question
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 3: about Japan. What were those dogs like like will be
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: to be similar to breedwise, so they were all.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 6: Over the place. So we had some hardcore guys that
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 6: had shiba you been you like local Japanese hunting dogs
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 6: dog yaba in you So they got the little curly tail,
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 6: they have a fox like kind of face dog. So
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 6: Japan's interesting because they got all sorts of really interesting
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 6: specialized dogs.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: Can I I have a trivia question planned for Angela
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: coming up.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: I got a bone to pick with you.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: Okay, say too much?
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 4: Can she talk about this when we get on the
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 4: trivia show.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: She's already given the answer to the bone.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 4: Not not yet. But I'm worried. I'm worried she's approaching
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 4: that territory. So I think we should just leave it
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 4: until trivia.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: Should I pick my bone with yeah?
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: Now or later, Tavia, if it's a trivia bone.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: Trivia bone, okay. Oh you know what I did that? Uh,
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: when we had that tent, say, on the parking lot,
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: I met this family. Memerel's gonna tell you the story.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: I sent you that picture, that little mountain man trophy,
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: and I said, I'll tell you later. I never told you.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: So there's this family and they do They've made their
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: own trivia tournament out of your trivia show.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: I'm worried about what you may have done, but carry on.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 7: Well.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: I ran up in the office and game one of
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: the trivia game.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, a prototype that was not ready for the market.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 4: But that's okay. Now one's just out there in the world.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: I said, listen, I'm gonna give this to you. Don't
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: show anybody, especially anybody that works here. Uh huh oh, no,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: like five people came up to me. You gave that
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: guy that trivia?
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: I'd heard from five people.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: I told him very clearly, put in your bag. You
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: don't show anybody.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 4: Yes, and I had heard from five people that some
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 4: family was walking around on the board game. I was like, well,
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 4: that's not possible.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: I show he went on to show everybody. I said
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: that the show perfect.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: I'll pick my bone and she will talk about her Japanese.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: He's gonna continue his line. Question yep.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 6: To answer your question, there are some local dogs and
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 6: some European like bloodhound type dogs. So that's a Mexico.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: That's all she can say for now.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: Oh, because it's right, because the bone, the.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: She may just give it away to everyone in the room.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: It would be at your advantage to just wait about
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: an hour.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 8: Got it.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: There's a Scottish woman that has an album called Bones.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: You have thrown me in blood I have spilled, which
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: we should work into the show. Okay, here here can
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: we switch the wolves from it? But I know, so
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: you're ancient dog, but that means categorically that you're interested
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: in wolves. What is the term trying to get how
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: to set this up when we now look at the
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: wolf landscape. Okay, we talked about what we have, the
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: Mexican gray wolf, right, and then that wolf ends at
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: what highway?
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 7: Is it?
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: There's a highway that it ends at. It'd be like
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: if a mule deer crosses, if a meal deer crosses
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: the I five quarter or he becomes a Columbia blacktail
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: in certain places, so he can go back and forth
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: all day long. And there's if Ossiola turkey walks across
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: a certain road, he becomes an eastern turkey. Right, And
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: we have these little divisions, but this one actually has
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: teeth because from a legal perspective in terms of how
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: it's manageding like experimental species and danger species. There's a line,
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: there's a highway. There was an eye forty. I don't know.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: There's there's a highway at which a Mexican gray wolf
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: ceases to be a Mexican gray wolf across to some highway.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: It's been pointed out to me, and I can't remember
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: the word they use. That all this is nonsense that
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: you had like that, Yes, there were wolves in Mexico,
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: but as you road north, you never left wolfland. It's
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: just you would gradually see different morphological types. Meaning in
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: the desert southwest there's wolves running around slightly different college
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: generally smaller. You'd go north and they might get bigger
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: and grayer, and you'd go north yet and they get
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: bigger still. And then you go north yet and they
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: might get smaller and wider, and then you roll into
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: you'd like roll into Siberia and it's like a little
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: bit different yet, but you never you never crossed the
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: line at which they're not interacting and what's the word
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: I'm looking for.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 6: I don't know where you're looking for.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: But they were a continuous blank. Yeah, they were.
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 7: Like you think, like a monoculture of a Yeah, it
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 7: was like that.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: All you could later go in and make like these
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: distinctions and these arbitrary lines at which they changed, but
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: they were just all there, all interacting, all breeding, and
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: you would just see different demonstrations different like pheno.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 6: Tisenotypes or morphotypes. So you would not have ever gone
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 6: anywhere and not seen wolves. If you're an ancient hunter gather,
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 6: there would have been wolves everywhere, I think, and all
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 6: these wolves can interbreed with each other. They're all canis
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 6: sloopis of some of some description they had. Uh yeah, yeah,
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 6: I mean, well, if you took a wolf from North
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 6: America and you moved it to Eurasia, maybe they're all
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 6: Canus loopists. They could interbreed, and the wolves that are
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 6: here now came from You know, when you say why
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 6: people were living and dying on Burringia, that's true. Why
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 6: did they make it that way? Well you have animals,
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 6: tons of animals moving into the Americas, So you have
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 6: a concert migration of animals moving through Bringian land Bridge.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 6: So probably people are following animals. You know, people didn't
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 6: just wake up one day and say like go east, right,
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 6: They're probably following herds of animals, both predators and prey
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 6: that are moving you know, their way into there, including wolves.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: Well you know who's brand new that I didn't know.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 6: This, elk Yeah, yeah, yeah, ELK.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: Like there could have been p people. I'm not sure
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: what the latest is on this, but there could have
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: been people that showed up here before elk.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 6: Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, so we think that wolves
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 6: didn't actually make it here. Wolves and ky didn't actually
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 6: make it here until fairly recently as well. So probably
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 6: wolves came over in the same time humans were making
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 6: their way over there, which is why dire wolves.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: Will get to dire So that was a wolf that
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: was here before Canis lupus.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 6: So dire wolves were probably the ancestor of dire wolves.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 6: Probably came into the Americas over a million years ago.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 6: Probably dire wolves evolved in the Americas somewhere, and then
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 6: we're here by themselves, the only wolf hanging out for
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 6: a very long time until gray wolves and dogs eventually
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 6: show up on the scene. But by then they they
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 6: were so removed from each other evolutionarily, they would not
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 6: have been able to so we have.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: So they weren't bred into they weren't bred into the
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: gray wolf. No, they probably just blinked out. You think
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: they blinked out because of being displaced by wolves and dogs,
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: or you think they blinked out as part of the
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: megafoneal extinctions, you know that took off the mammoths and macedons.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 6: It's probably a combination of both. The I mean, there
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 6: are a lot of mega predators that were in the
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 6: America's they're no longer here. You know, we had American lion,
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 6: American cheetah, short face bear, all the shimtar cats like
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 6: all sorts of predators that are no longer here because
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 6: their prey went. Yeah, tons of weird praise species that
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 6: you know, most people don't. There are camels in America,
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 6: original horses, real horses. Before the arrival of European horses,
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 6: we had horses here at camels, giant ground sloths, right Aglyptodon,
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 6: which was like a ginormous armadillo. We had all sorts
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 6: of things that were here, and when those things went
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 6: with the climate, the predators that relied on them, you know,
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 6: went as well. It didn't help, you know, humans would
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 6: have seen dire wolves. By the time we got here,
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 6: there would have still been dire wolves. We would have
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 6: interacted with dire wolves. We would have seen them, but
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 6: probably didn't help that we arrive with our dogs hunting everything.
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 7: How big was a dire wolf like a dog species
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 7: we'd recognize.
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 6: So a dire wolf isn't as big as we you know, game.
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 2: Style Game of Thrones to make some three four feet tall.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 6: No, I wish. No, the average direwolf is probably about
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 6: the size of like a big Arctic timberwolf.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 7: Okay, that makes sense.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you don't know this. I was gonna say,
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: did you know that me and my wife's first date
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: was at LaBrea tarpis.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 6: But you had I did not know that I'm here.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: Well, no, hear me out. So I have a very
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 1: nice I don't mean a brag school display at my
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: house built into my wall. My first date with my wife,
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: who went to Librea tar pits, and they have the
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: wall of dire wolf skulls, and I said at that time, somedow,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: I'll build one of those into my house. You did
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: it and then married her and built the school. Stick
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: to my word. Score.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, can I tack onto this conversation? This this tattoo
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 4: is the that is the cattle brand of the original
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 4: owners of the Lebra guitar pit when I think it
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 4: was called the Leroca Ranch because I also went there
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 4: and I was so moved by like the dire wolf thing.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: That was like I want something associated with that.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, Bray Tarpet's very cool. I mean they're very cool.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 6: I worked there several times, and one time when I
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 6: was working there, I had this office that kind of
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 6: looked out over the tar pits and I just watched.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 6: I was like one after the other animals, just adding
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 6: adding to the.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: Birds.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 6: Birds mostly just landing and then just.
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: Ah, you're seriously.
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 6: Oh yeah, the tar pets are still taking victims.
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: But you know when it's crazy, that is, and I
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: don't know how many hundred, one hundred and seventy five
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: dire wolves have come out of there, well all that stuff,
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: you think of it, it just be like a death like
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: smell like death. But they're saying that as long as
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: those pits have been going, I think it was that
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: if you had an incident, meaning a baby, a baby
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: mask mammoth gets stuck in the mud, a dire wolf
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: goes out to scavenge on it, he gets stuck in
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: the mud. A golden eagle lands on there, he gets
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: stuck in the mud. As long as that are in
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: the tar, as long as that happens every forty years,
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: yeah you're fine. Yeah, Like that would account for the
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: the bazillions of dead things collected in that tar. And
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: they either still fishing.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 6: Never learn they never learned, It just kept going. I
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 6: would just watch and yeah, we'll just land, and I thought.
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 4: Humans must have learned. Now, there's been one human ever
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 4: found there. It was like an eighteen to twenty year
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 4: old woman.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: But she was thrown in she had a axe wound
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: or yeah, I didn't know that she was thrown in
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: there as a cover up.
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 6: Whoa, yeah, there's a dog in there, a.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: Thousand year old crime.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: She had an axe. Yeah, she had been had a
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: blown into the head with an axe and somebody said,
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean to stick her.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 6: Humans love to throw like bog bodies. I just love
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 6: to throw a dead body into into one of these things, bogs,
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 6: tar pits.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 4: Swampsh'd be addicting throwing things in there.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 6: What happens?
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 7: Wow?
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 6: Yeah, still taking victims darts?
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: Oh?
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: Old it?
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: Did you just write that current eye forty?
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 3: I did?
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: I was right.
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 2: I was waiting to get away.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: You should have celebrated my rightness.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 4: I was you know I was going to get there.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 4: I forty in Arizona, New Mexico is the northern boundary
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 4: of the Mexican gray Wolves.
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 1: I got two more dire wolf questions. All right, have
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: you guys found where anybody was any butchered remains of
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: dire wolves?
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 6: We're not sure that's the answer. So we we don't
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 6: have a lot of sights where we have overlap between
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 6: dire wolves and humans. The few sites that we have
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 6: are in New Mexico and Arizona where we have butchery
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 6: sites where humans have butchered a mammoth and we also
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 6: have remains of dire wolves got it, but no obvious interaction.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: Like no tools made from dire wolf.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 6: Bones or no, no, nothing very specific like that. We
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 6: think probably humans caught the tail end. Around twelve to
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 6: thirteen thousand years ago is the time when a lot
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 6: of those mega predators and the Americas start to go
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 6: short face bear, saybergoth, cats, dire wolves, they all start
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 6: to go out. So there may have been like a
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 6: kind of hold out group in the Southwest that kind
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 6: of held on for some period of time and then
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 6: kind of petered out. I think for our paper we
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 6: got one of the kind of latest dates of dire
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 6: wolves and it was like twelve seven hundred years ago,
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 6: and that's probably towards the very end of the dire
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 6: wolf population.
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: And do you ever see are you ever running running
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: genetic lines on anything living today or anything from okay,
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: how to put this, So dire wolves twelve thousand years
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: ago they were gone? Yeah, okay, do you ever see
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: in anything living today or anything that died in the
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: last ten thousand years? Where you're like, oh, somehow some
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: dire wolves snuck in there. No it so it legit went,
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: It's gone.
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 6: So we checked everything we think as possible dogs, coyotes,
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 6: gray wolves, nothing has any kind of dire wolf in it,
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 6: and dire wolves, and so dire wolves and gray wolves
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 6: have a common ancestor about five point eight million years ago,
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 6: but after that they diverged. So what was interesting was
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 6: that we always assumed that dire wolves were just gray wolves,
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 6: like they look nearly identical in their morphology, and you know,
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 6: the people tarpets are the experts and dire wolves and
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 6: we just always they just look so similar. We figured
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 6: that they're like a sister species or just very closely related.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 6: And so when we did, when we finally got DNA
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 6: out of them, the reason it took so long was
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 6: because the stuff at Libreas, where most of dire wolves
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 6: are coming from, covered in tar, not a great place
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 6: to find DNA. Tar destroys the DNA. So yeah, so
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 6: can't can't get DNA out of those.
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: So just can't, can't can't really any of that stuff.
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 6: No, the tar just like destroys it. So I went
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 6: on this like bonkers road trip where I just drove
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 6: everywhere I could think of that might have dire wolf
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 6: bones and collected.
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: I'm just knocked on the door.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 6: A bunch of dire wolf samples, like Idaho Museum, Natural Street. Hey,
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 6: you guys have dire wal I just went everywhere and
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 6: tried to get as many as I could, and we
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 6: managed to get five out of hundreds that we that
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 6: we tested that we actually so we have two from
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 6: American Falls, from Idaho, and then one from Ohio, one
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 6: from Texas, I think, and another one from somewhere back east.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 6: So five rand ones, not Librea or anywhere famous that
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 6: we know dire wolves from. And when we tested those,
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 6: there's just no relationship at all. We found that they
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 6: are more closely reated to like jackals than they are
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 6: great wolves or dogs or kyotes or anything like that.
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 6: They diverged so long ago, so their ancestor that was
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 6: related to like a jackal, African jackal ancestor diverged, came
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 6: over from Africa across Eurasia and into the Americas, right
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 6: and that split happened five point eight million years ago,
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 6: and so their relationship to wolves is not very close
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 6: to the relationship. They just look like Wolves. It's like
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 6: convergent evolution. They do the same things, they live in
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 6: the same place, they eat the same thing. They kind
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 6: of so they look the same.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: But yeah, uh, are you Fami with the Grateful Dead.
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 6: I've become familiar with a lot of things that are
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 6: tangential to dire Wolves.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: You know where I'm going.
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 3: You know where I'm going with I do.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: They have one good album, yeah, Reckoning.
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah that's it.
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: You think I don't care what Doug Darren plays in
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: his car. They got one good album, Reckoning, which includes
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: the song dire Wolf.
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, yeah, you.
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: Should license that film. We could play it during the podcast.
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sounds good.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 6: When I talk about diar Wolves, a lot of things
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 6: come up. Game of Thrones obviously.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, traffic and that kind of stuff, any kind I
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: don't like any kind of new stuff that people know about,
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: because then it's just I'm always afraid my brain will
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 1: become like their brain.
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 6: We got to work backwards. Then you got Game of Thrones,
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 6: and then you got D and D Dungeon Chaggins anyone.
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll talk about that. Guys in high school, we're
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: into that dire Wolves.
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 6: There's like a Direwolf car dire wolves are part of that,
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 6: and then you know grief. Those are kind of the
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 6: touchstones of of diar Wals. Most people, though a lot
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 6: of people had no idea dire wolf was a real animal.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 6: I thought it was a completely mythological like creature that
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 6: was just made up for Game of Thrones or made
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 6: up for dungeons and dragons, and I don't know it's
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 6: real that it was a real animal. M Yeah, did
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 6: you know? Did you all know that dire wolf was
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 6: a real animal?
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, dude from my first day?
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 7: Probably not in high school, I didn't, but yeah's.
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: Who's the ass on your necklace? What's that my kid?
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: What's your kid's name?
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 7: Scot Oh, that's from the movie. Yeah, yeah, Mockingbird, Yellow Mockingbird.
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 1: It's a novel.
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 7: How many books do you knowed me to ready if
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 7: I quote something?
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 6: In high school? Yeah?
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: You named? Are you familiar with the the somewhat misogynistic
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: theory that Truman Capoti wrote that book?
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 6: No?
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I learned that in the movie Capoti.
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 7: That in there.
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 5: Yeah, supposedly the Dale character in the in the novel.
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: Does have a big pre publication record, and then it
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: kind of dropped off the Face of the Earth, and
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: when they line out what her influences, it's like Courtney
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: Love all that all that great music by whole was
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: when she was hanging out with Billy Corgan from Smashing Pumkins.
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: That's another misogynistic music theory. And then so it's like
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: that that wasn't actually her, it was Billy Corgan. And
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: then that that Truman Capodi wrote to Kill a Mockingbird.
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that and published it under her name
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: because then she never I guess she didn't like write
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: anything after. I'm not telling you a theory that I think.
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: I'm just telling you about the theory. It's like when
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: I tell jokes you're not supposed to tell. Now I
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: tell people about the joke. I don't tell the joke.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you should be aware there's a joke that
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: goals like this.
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 6: Should I rename my daughter now?
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: No? No, it's after the movie.
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 6: It's a movie too. It's a movie too.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: Spencer, what do you what are you Dealey dallying around here?
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: You got another question?
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: I was just making notes.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 3: We could hit on this. I feel like the rotten
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 3: meat fermentation topics are interesting.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: You guys take.
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 3: Well it was just in the notes about the consumption
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 3: of rotten meat. You want to speak to that?
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 6: Do you want to speak to that?
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 3: I can't speak if you could. Yeah, was it was
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 3: it the wolves or the humans that were doing that?
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 6: So I think the idea behind this, this is still
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 6: a kind of new idea that humans. You know, wolves
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 6: do this. They cash somewhere, they kill something, they eat
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 6: their fill, and then they'll they'll cash the meat in
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 6: water or you know, on her snow or something like that,
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 6: and come back to it, by which point it's you know,
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 6: sometimes putrid, rotten, but fine, but fine for them. Right,
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 6: So the ideas did Neanderthals or modern humans kind of
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 6: pick up on this idea of if you put meat
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 6: into an anaerobic environment, if you put it in the water,
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 6: in a frozen link or something like that, and come
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 6: back for it next season when you're low on meat,
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 6: you know, is this something that you could kind of
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 6: get away with. So I have a good friend Melanie,
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 6: she worked at the body farm in Tennessee.
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: Where they do all that that stuff for. Yeah, what's
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: the word it combines like insects and.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 6: Crime, Yeah, forensic entomology, Yeah, yeah, studying like when does
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 6: a blowfly hat on a dead body or something like that. Yeah,
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 6: so she was working there. She's a professor at Purdue now,
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 6: but we were working on this idea of like we're
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 6: trying to figure out why nitrogen values.
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: That'd be if I was a producer, I'd be taking
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: notes right now about getting someone from the body farm
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: on the show. Okay, ye forensic and to my forensic
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: and just someone who like puts a person out and
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: then a while later goes and checks on them.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's it's interesting something.
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: Can you horin up?
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 7: Yeah?
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 6: Sure, I mean there are a couple of them. There's
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 6: one in Texas. There are a couple kind of around
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 6: where they're doing.
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: We want the person who's best.
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 6: Body farm. The one at Tennessee is kind of the
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 6: the most well known one and.
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 3: Absolutely krin you can donate your body there for science and.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 6: You can there's kind of consider.
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: No cure.
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, wasn't there a whole thing about uh one
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 6: of the.
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 8: Lab the heads of the lab at was it.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 6: Harvard or another university of a cadaver lab where they
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 6: were actually selling off body parts.
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: No, I would mind picking one up experiment, Yeah, be
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: like see that you know what that is right in
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 1: my freezer? All right? Sorry, yeah, yeah, you go ahead
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: with your line of questions.
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 3: I don't think I add a question that we're listening to.
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 3: Angela explained about the body.
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 6: I mean, last I heard, they were they were full
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 6: of and that they had their they were at max
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 6: capacity of you know, the number of people that they
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 6: could take on the head signed up. So many people
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 6: want to donate, donate their bodies, and there's a pretty
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 6: you know, an extensive process of paperwork that you need
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 6: to do before, you know, because part of the work
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 6: that they're doing at that lab is you know, being
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 6: able to track things I have to do with knowing
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 6: you know, kind of what your diet is and your
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 6: ages and things like that. So they need some background
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 6: information on who you are and kind of what kind
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 6: of lifestyle you lived or things like that. So you know,
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 6: my friend was clipping cadaver fingernails to do some some
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 6: work on on cadaver finger things like that. I mean,
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 6: it's really it's it's really interesting work. Definitely be a
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 6: good episode.
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: Are you familiar? I think this might have got debunked,
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: but there was a site where they had they the
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 1: way they interpreted this site at the time, was it
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: someone had they had killed some mammoths, put those mammoths
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: in a pond, and then to the intestines and packed
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: them full of gravel and wove the gravel over. Wove
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: the gravel filled in testines as weights. Oh okay, over
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: the carcasses to hold them underwater. So the intestine rotted away.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: But you had this skeleton remains of this meat overlaid
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: with these cylinders of gravel, And that's what they suspected
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: that they had made.
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 6: Like in ans, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised. I
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 6: think we think of ancient peoples as kind of like slow. No, right, No,
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 6: of course not. They would have figured out all sorts
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 6: of stuff like this, right, they would have figured out pretty.
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: Cool to think of that as like a new timey idea.
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: What packing testines full of gravel and laying them over
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: some meat. Yeah, I mean, if I got friends that
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: none of us proposed that we do.
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 6: That, try it. I mean, next time you guys go
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 6: out hunting, take take a carcass that has something left
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 6: on it and put it, put it in a you know,
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 6: a cold body of water, cover it with some gravelly
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 6: intestines and see how long? Yeah, see how long it takes.
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: We've done that just to keep flies where it's not.
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: It's kind of nasty the way it looks after a while.
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: But between getting full of fly eggs and hot or
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: putting it in the creek, we've opted to just stick
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: in the creek.
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 6: How long did you leave it for?
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: Days? A couple days?
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 6: What was it like?
• 1:35:25
  Speaker 1: When it just looks like something that drowned. It gets
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: bled out real bad, so it gets white. But I
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: don't think if you PEPSI challenged it, I don't think
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: you'd be able to taste the difference, to be honest
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: with you, it just looks. It just looks off putting.
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 6: How long do you think you could leave it in
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 6: the water.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 1: Well, if you put it in, if you put it
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: in the creek and that creek was running like a
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: glacial stream where that thing's running forty to fifty degrees,
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: I bet you put them there for weeks and it'd
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 1: still be edible.
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 3: Try it, Yeah, as long as something else wasn't starting
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 3: to eat on it. Yeah, but just cold glacial water
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 3: in there, yeah, I guess colder, it is probably less
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 3: bacteria and whatnot in there to eat it or actually.
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: In the case where we did it, that stuff was
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: a glacier earlier that day, so.
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 6: It stayed really cool, real cold. Yeah.
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 4: Did you notice any trends with the average life span
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 4: of domestic dogs thousands of years ago? Did it seem
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 4: very different?
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 6: Not really? You know, we found lots of ten twelve
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 6: year old dogs. Wow, ancient dogs, which is, you know,
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 6: not that far off from now. I mean how old,
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 6: dear guys.
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 7: Hunting dogs, I always say, twelve is an easy number.
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 7: About right of active hunting and not necessarily the last
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 7: year or two. But in some cases, you know, what
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 7: is the.
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 6: Life cycle of like a hunting dog in terms of
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 6: how long does it take to train, when's it get good,
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 6: when's it kind of plateau?
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 1: And then when does it in the bird.
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 7: Dog world, I don't know in the hound world, Yanni,
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 7: But in the bird dog world what I said, by
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 7: three years, you know what you have third season, and
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 7: of course that takes training to get there.
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: His die has been cast.
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 7: Right right, like he's but this way, he's not going
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 7: to get better. He's not going to start pointing him
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 7: forty yards away. And giving you more opportunity. Whatever he's
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 7: developed over a couple of three seasons, there's your dog.
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: How long until you know? How long until you know
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 1: what you got?
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 7: Usually you can tell about a year and a half,
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 7: like you used to get one hunting season behind you,
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 7: and you see potential and then you're just hoping to
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 7: build on that. But sometimes it just never builds.
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: God, it just but you formed on strong. At a
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: year and a half, you have a strong hunch.
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 7: Oh yeah yeah, And at three years you know, yeah,
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 7: I got a dog right now that hunts behind me.
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 1: Jesus making sure.
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 7: I just can't bear to color. We lined up in
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 7: North Dakota, Les.
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 1: Can take off the rear on he just against you
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: pass one by.
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 7: We had five of us pushing this big state land
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 7: and it's behind us. She's doing a nice job of
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 7: going left to right, but she's behind us. So I
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 7: think Trent said, well, how about if we turn around
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 7: and walk backwards. So yeah, she's not gonna be a
• 1:38:15
  Speaker 7: rock star but for the hound, gentleman.
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: But what a second, I wanted this, this this rear
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: hunt dog. Well, so that kind of thing. There's no
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: way you're going.
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 7: To that and I'll be honest with you. I know
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 7: for a fact because I know who owned her and
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 7: they and I got him from her. She did something
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 7: very similar to that in her little puppy test before
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 7: she was a year of age.
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 1: You're not going to crack that. No, you're not gonna say.
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 7: Listen, Oh you could over you could over handle her
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 7: and call her around and call her around and call
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 7: her around. I just let her hut. She hunts fine
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 7: with one person, but with more than one person she
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 7: decides to go left to right behind you. But how
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 7: long is the hound head?
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 3: I think Frank could probably speak to it better than
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 3: I can.
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 1: Well, it's with.
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 5: They have been bread so strong over the last fifty
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 5: sixty years. You're lying the coon dogs, Yes, yeah, it's
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 5: and you all the even you know, if you're pleasure
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 5: hunting or your competition hunting, you're getting your dogs from
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 5: the same place, all out of the same litters, and
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 5: their bread for competition. So the breeding is to have
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 5: a dog that's barking, quicker, that's tree and quicker for
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 5: competition because in competition you don't necessarily have to see
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 5: a coon in the tree. In the summertime, the leaves
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 5: are full of If the trees are full of leaves
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 5: and you can't see a coon, it's called circle points
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 5: and you get credit for that. You know, you could
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 5: you could win a coon hunting competition at night and
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 5: never look at a coon if there was any doubt
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 5: that there wasn't a coon in that tree. You know,
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 5: if you if you went to a tree that didn't
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 5: have any leaves on it and you couldn't you everybody can. Yeah,
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 5: you could look all the way around and there wasn't
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 5: any holes in it and you could see you know,
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 5: that's called slick treeing. You know, there's nothing in there.
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 5: That's that's a minus. If you tree on that same
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 5: tree in the summertime, when it's full of leaves and
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 5: you just can't happen to see it, you can say, well,
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 5: they're theoretically you know, you could hide six up there,
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 5: but we just can't see them. But that's you know,
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 5: would you see your beast? Well, my dog started treating
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 5: by hisself when he was nine months old, but that's
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 5: not I mean, that's not highly unusual. There's yeah, it's
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 5: all that's what it is. He he is following that
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 5: genetic cold that's been instilled in him.
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: But at a year, like you.
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 5: Were saying, a year and a year and a half,
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 5: that's when most folks start deciding I'm going to keep
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 5: this dog, or you know, maybe he's got some characteristics
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 5: that I don't like that I'm that somebody else is
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 5: okay with. And I'm not a competition hunter, so I'm
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 5: just I'm just looking for when I cut the dog loose,
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 5: that when he starts treeing, that he's he's looking at
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 5: a looking at a coon. So what he does between
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 5: the time I turn him loose and he treats a coon,
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 5: it's really immaterial to me. As long as he barks
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 5: enough that I can keep up with him. He's not
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 5: running deer, not running chasing armadals or treeing possums or
• 1:41:15
  Speaker 5: anything like that off game, which he doesn't. And it's
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 5: it's you talk about wolves and how dogs came from that,
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 5: you know, it's inherently against what a predator would do.
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 5: Chasing prey to make noise, you know, A coon dog
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 5: or any kind of dog that chases game that barks
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 5: out loud for you to know where he's at, is
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 5: really going against what would would be able for them
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 5: to fill in the dinner plate because he's chasing a
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 5: coon to eat, because it's a prey drive, the prey
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 5: instinct that he's going after.
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 7: He's giving him a lot of warning, he's marking.
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 5: He's saying, I'm coming, you know, and that's no point
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 5: tree with the whole exactly.
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 3: He's like Kevin Murphy.
• 1:42:03
  Speaker 1: I feel the need to quote Jerry Kloer. Jerry Klower said,
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 1: when Brummy trees out on a coon, you don't have
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 1: to worry about no possum or no wildcat. That's right,
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: that's exactly.
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 3: How many prime years will you get then out of that?
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 5: Oh you can, you know, with proper care, and he
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 5: gets carred for properly. You can hunt a dog, you know,
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 5: seven eight, nine years old, and we hunt. I keep
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 5: I keep him in shape, We hunt, you know, year round.
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 5: His doghouse has an air conditioner in it.
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 7: I think that'll build up tolerance.
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 5: And a heater so it never gets hotter than seventy
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 5: five degrees in there, colder than fifty five.
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 7: Hey, Steve, did you know that your hometown, my adopted hometown,
• 1:42:54
  Speaker 7: is home of one of the most famous coon dog
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 7: walker bereaeders in the history of the world. Oh yeah,
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 7: the Giddings family, Chuck, Frank Kitttings, Frank Frank Gettings, Chuck.
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 7: Really yeah, he had that.
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: Carl got his walkers and everything. Yep.
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 7: And his son, Chuck lives right next door to me.
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 7: That log home next to me, that's Chuck Gettings house. Seriously, yeah,
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 7: and his dad is in his eighties and he still
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 7: runs coons every night, every night, every night.
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 1: So is that well, no, you can't because I thought
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: it was the training season there, oh, Phil.
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 7: There is the season when it is closed. You're right,
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 7: But any night that he could be out out that's good.
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: Heed.
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 5: In Arkansas, you can hunt, you know your you can
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 5: hunt your round and you can take game. You can
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 5: kill coons on private land year round and there's no
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 5: limit on them. I don't kill very man coon scept
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 5: in the wintertime when the when the fur is good,
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 5: you know, I'll bring the fur home. But the you
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 5: can still get out there and do it. And then
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 5: you know, those dogs, there's the domestication of them. And
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 5: a lot of people would think, or I used to
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 5: think that it was you had to train a dog
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 5: to make him do what you wanted to. It had
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 5: to be about four, she would think, you know, somebody,
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 5: really he had had to be heavy handed with.
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 1: A dog to get him to do something. But that's
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 1: not the case.
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 8: No.
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 5: You know, every dog that I've ever owned, even labradors
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 5: when I was training the labradors, they have an inherent
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 5: desire to please you. And you just got to if
• 1:44:29
  Speaker 5: you can't show that dog that you appreciate what he's
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 5: doing and let him know that. When when whaling trees
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 5: and he he when I cut him loose and he tracks,
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 5: he barks on the trail and then he trees and
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 5: I praise him. That's all that's that's his reward. His
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 5: reward is not the coon in the tree, because those
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 5: those days are over with. His reward is me being
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 5: pleased with how he did it. If he goes out
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 5: to do it again. Yeah, And if he goes out
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 5: and does something, he does some the wrong, I mean,
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 5: knock on wood. He's never treated a possum. But how
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 5: I would deal with that is he wouldn't get a reward.
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 7: He'd just be like, come on, let's get out of here.
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 5: I put I put a snap on a leash on
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 5: him and lead him away and cut him loose again.
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 7: And it would be different for him. He'd be like,
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 7: he's like, oh man, he rubs my ears real good
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 7: when we do this.
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, election is still gonna let him come in the house.
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 3: But most ancient people get the same feeling of just
• 1:45:28
  Speaker 3: joyful pride that I got when I was in Arkansas
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 3: and Mingus treated his first coon.
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 1: That doesn't.
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 6: I mean, let me tell you, I've seen some really elaborate,
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 6: elaborate dog burials, ancient dog burials. There's one site in
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 6: Sweden where big cemetery got humans in big cemetery, but
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 6: humans in one location, young children in this kind of
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 6: like middle ground location, and then a whole cemetery of
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 6: dogs and some of those dog barrils. One of those
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 6: dog barrels is the most like richly decorated, more than
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 6: the human burials. It's got, I mean, all sorts of
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 6: shells and points and red deer antlers and ochre and
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 6: the whole it's it's curled up with its tail kind
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 6: of between its legs and it's its legs tucked up.
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 6: And I mean, you have to think that a dog's
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 6: not being parried like that unless something, Yeah, there's something
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 6: like they're just thinking like this is the greatest dog ever.
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 6: But also you know, there's no telling how many hunting
• 1:46:39
  Speaker 6: dogs they lost in the forest, right, and the dog
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 6: gets buried in the forest and never makes it makes
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 6: it back. But I mean, what for me for domestication studies,
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 6: I think one of the most interesting questions for me
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 6: is this you know thing that you guys are talking
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 6: about where they are the ancestors of wolves. They have
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 6: a prey drive. But somehow we've something's happened in the
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 6: relationship with humans where they have mosts released to let
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 6: the final step be kind of taken over by humans,
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 6: right to make the kill, to make whatever that that
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 6: final decision is on. Okay, I've chased, I've scented it,
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 6: I've gotten you here, I've done my job as I've
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 6: used all my innate senses as a dog to get
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 6: us here. Now you're the one to make.
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 1: The kill that raca the tree. It's like you get
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 1: like a couple of seconds, I portion it out, I
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: get what I want you.
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 6: This is the question of like how did that This
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 6: is interesting to me of like how that process happens.
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 6: That's brilliant where wolves released that control over the final
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 6: step of the kill and then what happens afterwards. And
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 6: so when people tell me, you know, we we we
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 6: chose to domesticate wolves like we would have were hunting
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 6: alongside them, I'm trying to think, like, you know, it's
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 6: almost like Twilight, like running in the woods alongside the
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 6: wolves and you're hunting deer and I'm hunting deer, and
• 1:48:16
  Speaker 6: so we decided to hunt together. I just can't see that.
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 6: I can't see the scenario in which you make a kill.
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 6: You're there, the pack of wolves and you and a
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 6: deer between you.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 7: Go ahead.
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 5: Well, seventy but I would say easily seventy percent of
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 5: the dogs that I hunt with now, if it's during
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 5: kill season in the winter and we shoot a coon out,
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 5: they'll They'll grab a hold of it and then that's it.
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 5: I'll just turn and walk away and go look for another.
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 3: They just need a little the same way you think
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 3: he's just going to tear the thing to shreds, but
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 3: he gives it one little Yeah.
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 1: He gets his food from you. My kids have a
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 1: red squirrel dog. It is an expert red squirrel hunter,
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: and all she wants to do is she wants to
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 1: know that they've been shot down. Out of the tree,
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 1: won't eed it, no desire to pick it up.
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 3: She's treeing those resis.
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, Yeah, she trees them with a bark. Nope,
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 1: that's the I said. If you could get that dog
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 1: to bark, they got a follower. She'll hear if a
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 1: pine squirrel cuts out, she's going to that pine squirrel
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 1: and she will get and sit at the base of
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 1: tree and stare at that squirrel. And if you find her,
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: there's a squirrel there and she's sitting there staring at it.
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 1: And when they shoot it down, she's just done.
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 7: Did you do any gun preparation for this or did
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 7: it just work out?
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 1: No? They kept telling me how good she was at it,
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 1: and I kind of didn't believe it. But it's it's true. Man.
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 1: That dog is a That dog will get one squirrel
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 1: after the other, after the other after the other. Right,
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 1: because pine squirrels are so vocal and they have the
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 1: achilles their achilles heel. I'm not saying every one of
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 1: them does it, but when they're not happy with your presence,
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 1: they oh so just keeps it going. There's always if
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: you're in a good area, there's always two or.
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 7: Three of them.
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 1: Going, dude you And so she just goes to that
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 1: one and she'll find out where it is and stare
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 1: at it, and they'd act different. They'll when she treats them,
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 1: they'll treat lower and out in the open and often
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 1: sit there barking at her, not like they would with
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 1: a person. Yeah, so they my kids clean up on
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 1: them anyway, zero interest.
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 6: What's happened. Something's happened.
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 1: It wants to see them and wants to go out
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 1: and be like, yep, that one's dead and that's it.
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 6: But they've like that last final step of like predator
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 6: response partnership has like released to humans.
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 1: That's a great point. Why you'd go through all that
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 1: trouble and then a thing that would once reward you
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 1: and your pack with all this food. You'd go through
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 1: all of that same trouble and in the end not
• 1:50:53
  Speaker 1: get to be the one you get the scramps, not
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 1: get to be the one that decides on allocation.
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 6: You do all the work, and then you're just like
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 6: let go and then like back. Which is interesting when
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 6: we have conversations with people.
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 7: Didn't happen till they made Kipple dry dog.
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 6: For But I mean, you know, people have cats who
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 6: you know, those cats go out and they'll fend for
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 6: themselves all day long.
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 1: But yeah, get a cat thust.
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 6: Dogs like they can chase they can.
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I can tell you a little something about cats
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 5: as far as law enforcement goes. Anytime any kind of
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 5: investigation where we had a death on a you know
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 5: and unobserved death where someone old person or something, they
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 5: had died in the house lands in their feeding on them,
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 5: they had a cat. The cat to be eating them.
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 5: Where what's it like to eat nose first? Yeah, that's
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 5: where they'll start. And then you go in there with
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 5: a dog and a dog will be starving to death,
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 5: will be dead laying beside them.
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 1: They won't eat them, you know, cat will eat you
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 1: for the shelter. Take your laugh, take your last breath,
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 1: you know. I mean dogs on search.
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 2: This podcast all about dogs.
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 1: We play cat in the titles. Yeah, so like I'm
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: thinking c a t apostrophe LLL right.
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 8: Like a parenthetical part of the title, like dogs are better.
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 1: I got one last question that weren't handed over to Ronnie.
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 1: You're not interested in dogs, like you don't have a
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 1: bunch of dogs.
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 6: I have dogs?
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: Oh you do? Okay, I thought you were saying that
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 1: you just didn't you weren't into like actually having them.
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 6: No, I have dogs. I've always had dogs my parents.
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 1: Somehow in the pre chat I picked up that I
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 1: didn't get that.
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 6: Yeah I have Westies.
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 1: Oh I just picked that up. Okay, I thought you
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 1: were saying you were fixing to get into west.
• 1:52:50
  Speaker 6: I'm fixing to get into some new dogs. I'm fixing
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 6: to some were I want like big livestock guarding dogs,
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 6: you know, lives. That's what we're saying.
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 1: She goes.
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 7: Now I got to get I.
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 6: Have to get goats and sheep and property.
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 1: You know, you don't start with you start with like
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 1: that jail.
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 6: This is what I this is. This is part of
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 6: what I argue with some of my you know, archaeology
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 6: colleagues about it is like, if you decide you're gonna
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 6: you're gonna use dogs to hunt, right, and the dogs
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 6: are like the primary decision makers. Then does all technology
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 6: follow from using dogs to hunt? This is the other
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 6: technology that you use then have to align with how
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 6: you hunt with dogs.
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 1: You know, my guess would be and I don't know
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 1: my guess would be with humans. It was that initially,
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 1: it was that it was useful foreign activity already occurring,
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: and not that they said. He if we had one
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 1: of those, we would change how we go about this. Yeah,
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 1: it was probably you know, when we try to drive
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 1: all those things up into that box canyon, that would
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 1: go even better. Yeah, well the dog.
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 6: Yeah, So the ethnography and the ethnic history when you
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 6: read about hunting, I read a lot of like you know,
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 6: modern ethnography, but historical ethnography about people who went and
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 6: lived with indigenous groups somewhere and how they use dogs,
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 6: and you hear similar stories over and over. There's always
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 6: like a prize dog who's just the best, and everyone
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 6: wants the puppies from that prize dog and like allows
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 6: them to do something that they couldn't do before. You
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 6: always hear stories about some type of prey, usually something
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 6: semi dangerous, bore or something like that that is just
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 6: too dangerous to go after on their own, but now
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 6: that they have dogs, they've decided they're gonna go after it.
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 1: That's what I was wrong.
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 6: Well, for certain animals, I think for some, like the
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 6: most more dangerous animals. You hear this in like Arabia
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 6: for example, like going after ibex, super dangerous and they
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 6: get themselves up into like crevices and stuff that you're
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 6: not going to go after them, but your dogs will.
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 6: Got it, So praise spieces that you normally would be
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 6: like not not.
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 1: It opened up opportunity, opportunity, we know. It backs you
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 1: up on that. The last thing you're gonna do is
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 1: catch a lion. Yeah, I mean you live, you could
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 1: live a lifetime. I mean a mountain lion. Yeah, you
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 1: live a lifetime and be like I spent my whole
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 1: life in the mountains that I've seen two mountain lions.
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 1: So that opens up a thing that you just are
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 1: not going to accomplish. Yeah, and it makes it possible.
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, it's not like it so that that contradicts
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 1: my earlier point. You're right, it's like you're not going
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 1: to get one without it.
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, yeah, there are certain there are certain things.
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 6: You also hear a lot of stories of we used
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 6: to have to go out in five or ten person
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 6: hunting groups. But now Phil Phil can go out by himself,
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 6: This Phil or that Phil, any Phil, Phil can go
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 6: out by himself with a group of five dogs and
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 6: do what we used to have to take ten people.
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 6: Now the other eight people can go and do something
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 6: actually useful around the camp, or go somewhere else and
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 6: do something else. So it frees up people to do
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 6: other things because a pack of dogs can do what
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 6: a pack of humans would do, and probably much better.
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 1: Me and Yanni interviewed a guy, do you remember his Yanni,
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 1: a Chimane guy. He had to tell his story in
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 1: Chimane to someone who spoke Spanish.
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 3: No, to someone that spoke correct, that spoke Timani and Spanish.
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 1: He told me someone who knows Chimani and Spanish, who
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 1: then listened and told it, and then to a Spanish
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 1: Spanish English speaker, and then we're getting to like third hand.
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 1: It was a big story about hunting jaguars with a
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 1: dog and a jaguar that had killed some of his dogs,
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 1: and eventually getting a jaguar or after it killed his
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 1: primary dog, Yeah, his main dog.
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 6: Yeah, So my colleague that I told you about before
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 6: in Nicaragua, lots of jaguars where he is, and he says,
• 1:57:10
  Speaker 6: you know, when he goes back, the percentage of dogs
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 6: that are left from the year before is very low,
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 6: and it's largely due to jaguars, but they're also using
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 6: the dog. They're using the dogs as hunting dogs, but
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 6: also is in many ways that kind of not bait.
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 6: But if jaguars going to attack someone, then you'd rather
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 6: attack your dog and attack you.
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: We were in a village they had lost at the
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 1: time we were there, and it continued for a while.
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 1: At the time we were there, they had in the
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 1: last month or two, I camera the timing they had
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 1: lost twenty four dogs to a jaguar, which they thought
• 1:57:43
  Speaker 1: to be a single jaguar had killed twenty four dogs
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 1: I camera as the last month or two, and it
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 1: went on after we left, right.
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 6: But this is also the reason why when you ask
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 6: people in a village like that, like how much time
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 6: you spend training your dogs? How much time you're going
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 6: to spend training a dog that like tomorrow could get
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 6: killed by a ja So you rely on some level
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 6: of like natural ability and instinct, which is probably also
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 6: why hunting dogs can be really great there but also
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 6: really frustrating because they don't have much training. You're just
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 6: hoping for a good one. When you do get a
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 6: good one, you breed them and you everyone wants the
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 6: puppies because they're hoping that one's natural abilities of hunting,
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 6: you know, kind of pan out, but you don't have
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 6: three years because they might get killed by jaguar tomorrow.
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 6: So that's a lot of training investment to put into
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 6: the dog that's going to get killed tomorrow. So I
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 6: think the use of hunting dogs is highly correlated to
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 6: like what pray you're going after, the environment that you're
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 6: in that determines how useful a hunting dog may or
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 6: may not be, and a lot of places where you
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 6: read Ethnografyorth no history of hunting dogs. You know, the
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 6: use of hunting dogs is like critical to their economy.
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 6: They can't go out and take the number of animals
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 6: that they could they were doing it by themselves. Or
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 6: you know, you have a single guy who's trying to
• 1:58:58
  Speaker 6: feed his family and he can go out maybe take
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 6: down one small animal, but with a pack of dogs,
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 6: he can corral an animal and then kill it and
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 6: make a much bigger kill or something like that. So
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 6: you know, there are these kind of variations based on
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 6: what prey you're going after. Or you know, your dogs
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 6: make it eight nine years with productive hunting, but if
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 6: they're an environment where mountain lions are going after him,
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 6: or jaguar or something like that, wolves going after them
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 6: or something like that. Maybe you wouldn't put the time
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 6: and effort into the training if you're losing dogs more
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 6: regularly or something like.
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 5: That, they concentrate more on quantity.
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 6: Right with your dogs, do you guys? Are they trained
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 6: by humans only or is it reliance on other dogs.
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 5: That's the two methods that that coon dogs use. But
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 5: they're so independent now. That's when I was training in mine.
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 5: I was training with a friend of mine. He had
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 5: an older dog, well established and straight coon dog. He
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 5: didn't treat possums or anything, and we'd cut them loose together,
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 5: but they would after one hundred and fifty two hundred
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 5: yards of my dog following him around, he would just
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 5: break off on his own and then and that independence
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 5: has been bred into him a lot because of the
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 5: competition hunting where.
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 1: Oh, because they got he's got to score. You don't
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 1: want like a you don't want to tag along dog right.
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 5: Because because of who If he's second to the tree,
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 5: then he's his points are or less.
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 1: But if he goes and does his own thing, he
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 1: gets the same prioritize dog that doesn't like peers. That's
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 1: more independent.
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 6: Yeah, And what is the like through rate? If you
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 6: have a litter of six pups, how many of those
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 6: six pups and the dogs you're talking about turn out
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 6: to be.
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 5: There's a guy that had a the who's the grandfather
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 5: of my dog? And that dog was like one of
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 5: ten or twelve, and it was the rest of them
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 5: are nothing, And this dog was an absolute world beater.
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 5: They he bred him with another world beaten female, a
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 5: whole litter of puppies that you would think would be dynamos.
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 5: None of them are worth anything, bred them again the
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 5: next time, and maybe three out of ten were world beaters.
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 5: So it's just, you know, there's a lot of math
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 5: that goes in there that nobody understands, because it's not
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 5: always best and best bread together make the best, and
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 5: it just doesn't work that way. And I can't answer
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 5: why that is. But you would think the same. And
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 5: it's like me and my brothers, we got the same
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 5: mom and the same daddy. I'm the only pretty one
• 2:01:45
  Speaker 5: out of the whole brunch.
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 1: So it's the same thing. So didn't Jerry Clark call
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 1: you pretty? He did, so you're a pretty boy. Put
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 1: him in the whole New life. Did he say it
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 1: like how like say a clown like a like like
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 1: a you know, like a creepy way like a grandpa. Okay,
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 1: not like you know what I'm saying. No, like no,
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 1: all right, Ronnie, take it away.
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 7: Uh Well, I just want to thank you for letting
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 7: me come out to do a little advertising. Yep, you
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 7: let me come out a couple of years ago and
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 7: we released the Upland Institute the Pointing Dog Training series,
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 7: which is done very well. And I do get notes
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 7: from emails. Heard about you on Meat Eater podcast. Great
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 7: finally got a puppy and they remembered it. So I
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 7: called you up and I said, uh, I got into
• 2:02:38
  Speaker 7: the project I'm working on right now, and I had
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 7: so much fun, like getting into the not that I'm
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 7: the editor, but sitting in on the editing process and
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 7: watching how you could just take a bunch of let's
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 7: just say b roll, even if it's on purpose, and
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 7: you could turn it into something. And Matt, my partner,
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 7: he loves the job of editing, and he kind of said,
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 7: what can we do down the road? He said, he said,
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 7: I you know, we're burning He's burning the candle at
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 7: both ends. But he said, what can we do? And
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 7: he's got a day job right as an editor, you know,
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 7: but he he would like to do this full time.
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 7: I'm like, boy, I mean we could do I didn't
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 7: want to do a different training video because I already
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 7: did a training video and it came to me like
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 7: I get so I filter so many people's emails, Ronnie,
• 2:03:32
  Speaker 7: I'm getting my next dog, Ronnie, I'm getting my first dog, Ronnie.
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 7: I'm I went from German short hairs and I want
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 7: to try one of your big, long eared broncos. So
• 2:03:41
  Speaker 7: I realized it's just like, until you've been in it,
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 7: there's a lot of people just will never really get
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 7: into the minutia of how dogs are bred, how they're selected,
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 7: how it happened. So we decided to build this series
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 7: that were filmed. In the middle of filming, We've got
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 7: a couple episodes done. It's called Behind the Dog because
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 7: that's kind of like, if you're a dog person, everything
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 7: you do is behind the dog, or in.
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 1: The case of your dog, in front of the dog in.
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 2: The one dog's case, right exactly.
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 7: So yeah, so Behind the Dog films what we're doing
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 7: is we're trying to find let's say the top tier
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 7: breeders of every breed in this country, and there's a
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 7: lot of them.
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 7: We did one with a short hair a German short
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 7: hair pointer breeder. We're working on editing one that we
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 7: did with a Vima. I'm gonna do it right a
• 2:04:31
  Speaker 7: or a weimer Reiner.
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 1: How it was supposed to go yea wema, yeah, and
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 1: why Wagner group in the group.
• 2:04:37
  Speaker 7: Exactly exactly, And then of course, you know, a more
• 2:04:41
  Speaker 7: difficult one will be And we found a labrador breeder,
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 7: and there's so many labradors in this country. But what
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 7: we're trying to do is find the breeders that put
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 7: the most back into the breed god, from health testing
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 7: to hunt testing and an actual hunting. Like there's never
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 7: going to be someone who just shows their dogs in
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 7: a show ring, but they might hunt them, show them
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 7: and sign up for every possible health test they could
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 7: because they're so concerned that like, look, I'm selling these
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 7: dogs for a lot of money. Now, remember what a
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 7: dog costs twenty even twenty years ago, we spent two
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 7: hundred dollars on a dog or five hundred maybe, And
• 2:05:21
  Speaker 7: so we want to kind of bring these what are not.
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 1: Don't give me the extremes, but what's happened to that
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 1: price two to five twenty years ago has become two thousand.
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 7: That would be easy right in the middle, two thousand dollars.
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 3: There was an auction recently, like an outfitter auction down
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 3: in New Mexico, a mule and hound auction. I don't
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 3: know what the mules went for, but there were a
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 3: couple of dogs that broke twenty thousand for lionhounds. Yeah, wow,
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 3: dry ground line.
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's every day in the coon hound world.
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 7: So that's what we're That's like kind of our Grail quest.
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 7: We we want to find the top tier breeders and
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 7: eventually even go down to Terry or colleagues. Got ways
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 7: to go for you get there. We got but it
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 7: gives me something to do. I'm retired, so I can
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 7: just drive around the country.
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 1: Well, let me just chime in them out. So what
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 1: I thought was that what one did was I looking
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 1: I can't remember.
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 7: Were looking at the one about the Germany short hair breeders.
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 1: So so Ronnie's at a breeder right, kind of doing
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 1: a podcast. Yeah, and they're but they're showing so there
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 1: they have all these dogs running around different age classes,
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 1: and just this is just one of the many things
• 2:06:27
  Speaker 1: in here, right is they stand one up. Okay, they
• 2:06:30
  Speaker 1: stand one up on a pedestal. What do you call
• 2:06:32
  Speaker 1: that thing?
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 7: Just tap the platform.
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 1: They stand one up on a platform, and they say,
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 1: when I'm when I'm looking at these, here's what I'm
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 1: looking for, very specific.
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 7: The nose could this confirmation?
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it would stand this way, This should look like this.
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 1: This should look like this. So even if you weren't
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 1: at even if you weren't going to that breeder, let's
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 1: say you can't afford it or whatever you could, you
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 1: still watch it and you'd be like, oh, okay, so
• 2:06:59
  Speaker 1: when I go look at pops, I'm trying to select
• 2:07:01
  Speaker 1: the pop from my neighbor, from the dog pound whatever.
• 2:07:04
  Speaker 7: These are attributes that would be K nine attributes.
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they'd be like, you don't know, and like you said,
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 1: you don't know yet how it's gonna turn out. Maybe,
• 2:07:13
  Speaker 1: but these are attributes that would be signifiers of some
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 1: of the things you might want to look for in early.
• 2:07:21
  Speaker 7: Selection, right, Yeah, and we will in some of the episodes.
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 7: We'll get into it as deep as we did in
• 2:07:27
  Speaker 7: the first one where we showed basically we took like
• 2:07:30
  Speaker 7: a year old dog and then went backwards to a
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 7: sixteen week old dog, then a twelve, then an eight,
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 7: then a four, and what she did with these pups
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 7: for confirmation, it's been done for decades. Another woman started
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 7: this where they literally can pick the dog up by
• 2:07:48
  Speaker 7: the by the under the collar and between the legs
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 7: and just watch the way the legs hang. I mean,
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 7: someone are going to walk like me, Steve, and you
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 7: know how funny I walk right with my knees out. Well,
• 2:08:00
  Speaker 7: a puppy will show you that same thing. If he's
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 7: gonna be cow howked, which is where they it would
• 2:08:05
  Speaker 7: be knock kneed. If you were a person, you don't
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 7: want to find out that you're gonna have a cow
• 2:08:09
  Speaker 7: howk It's gonna run funny and eventually not be able
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 7: to do the performance you want to do. It's gonna
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 7: wear out its back end, it's gonna wear out its joints,
• 2:08:18
  Speaker 7: just like I did, you know, walking with my knees
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 7: going up in two directions. So yeah, there's things you
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 7: could learn. You don't have to be interested in the
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 7: German short hair. You could watch what she's doing with
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 7: that puppy and like, wow, I'm gonna do that next
• 2:08:31
  Speaker 7: time I look for a dog. And then so, yeah,
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 7: it's like a We always interview the person at their
• 2:08:37
  Speaker 7: home or their kennel or usually it's always both, of course.
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 7: So we record a podcast just at a kitchen table,
• 2:08:45
  Speaker 7: and then we film the whole time. We're doing it,
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 7: like you're doing here. Now, we have cameras, two or.
• 2:08:50
  Speaker 1: Three cameras film that and the hunts and everything.
• 2:08:53
  Speaker 7: Right, And in that person's case, yeah, we hunted together
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 7: that that prior season in North Dakota, so we use
• 2:08:59
  Speaker 7: some of that footage when talking about how we met.
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 7: You're actually watching our footage of our hunt in North.
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 1: Dakota, and you learn, Like in that case, when I watch,
• 2:09:06
  Speaker 1: you learn, why is hunting with this kind of dog?
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 1: How is that different than other kinds of dogs? Meaning
• 2:09:14
  Speaker 1: what are some of the expectations if you think about
• 2:09:16
  Speaker 1: a bird hunting dog, what are some of the expectations
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 1: of this breed, what are some of the expectations of
• 2:09:21
  Speaker 1: that breed.
• 2:09:22
  Speaker 7: Yeah, and I honestly, I think where the point I
• 2:09:25
  Speaker 7: want to make to people is like a bird dog
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 7: is pretty much a bird dog, just like a hound
• 2:09:30
  Speaker 7: is pretty much a trailing hound. They have some that
• 2:09:33
  Speaker 7: are a little better at big game, a little better
• 2:09:35
  Speaker 7: at small game. But it's what the breeders put into it.
• 2:09:39
  Speaker 7: It's the standards that they hold themselves to. And when
• 2:09:43
  Speaker 7: I say standard, it's their breeding ethics. But every breed
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 7: in this country now, And that's why I wanted to
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 7: ask you Angel, like, if you had a dire wolf skull,
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 7: so all dogs have forty two teeth, would juicy? Yeah,
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 7: twenty two and twenty and or two and twenty up?
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 7: Would you see teeth misalignments and old skulls, So that
• 2:10:07
  Speaker 7: would indicate to me hell.
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 1: Of a trivia question. Man, Damn it.
• 2:10:12
  Speaker 3: Was Ronnie that yesterday. I even wrote it down in
• 2:10:14
  Speaker 3: my notes that was going to use that in oh Fu.
• 2:10:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, nobody would have got it right.
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 7: Where a tiebreaker, but you also said that nobody would
• 2:10:23
  Speaker 7: get it right, so it might not be hard.
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 1: Was phenomenal tiebreaker material.
• 2:10:28
  Speaker 7: What I wanted to ask Angel is like, if you found, uh,
• 2:10:31
  Speaker 7: there was a dire wolf or a wolf or whatever
• 2:10:33
  Speaker 7: with bad teeth, that's an indication of probably too much
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 7: generational breeding. Possibly, Yeah, because if you had a dire
• 2:10:40
  Speaker 7: wolf skull, how many of those exist out there.
• 2:10:43
  Speaker 1: I don't even know. I'll tell you there's one hundred
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 1: and seventy five of them.
• 2:10:45
  Speaker 7: Oh there's Would they have any malclusions in their mouth?
• 2:10:50
  Speaker 3: They do?
• 2:10:50
  Speaker 6: They would too, Yeah, they haveclusions, they're missing molers, they
• 2:10:54
  Speaker 6: have all sorts of.
• 2:10:56
  Speaker 7: So all that is coming from that far back, I
• 2:10:59
  Speaker 7: thought it was more of a last hundred years bringing.
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 1: Things from messing with them too much.
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 6: This is what we're trying to sort out right now,
• 2:11:05
  Speaker 6: is that we think some of the things you're selecting
• 2:11:07
  Speaker 6: for positively, like you know, a water dog, you want
• 2:11:12
  Speaker 6: something with this type of coat, right, shoes, something that
• 2:11:14
  Speaker 6: goes with this type of coat. But what trails along
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 6: with it? The jeans that partner with that that you
• 2:11:19
  Speaker 6: don't necessarily want but you're not thinking about. Come along for.
• 2:11:22
  Speaker 1: The ride like bad hips, come along for the ride.
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 7: I think we got to have you on an episode
• 2:11:29
  Speaker 7: someday of Behind the Dog. Well, anyway, thank you, Steve.
• 2:11:32
  Speaker 7: It's a It's all you have to do is go
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 7: to behind Dog Films dot com.
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 1: Well, so how many when you launch? Like? How many?
• 2:11:40
  Speaker 1: Tell me what ones you're gonna have done? Now?
• 2:11:42
  Speaker 7: Well, we have two completed. One of them was not
• 2:11:46
  Speaker 7: a breeder specific, but it was a training video that
• 2:11:49
  Speaker 7: we were shooting, and we really got into the weeds
• 2:11:51
  Speaker 7: about how any good bird dog, especially duck dog obviously
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 7: has to be comfortable with the water. Should just be
• 2:12:00
  Speaker 7: another terrain to even your house dog.
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 1: Right, if you go, you don't need to coax it
• 2:12:05
  Speaker 1: at the shoreline.
• 2:12:06
  Speaker 7: Dog on a walk and it won't cross the creek
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 7: with you. Your kids aren't gonna let you finish the
• 2:12:10
  Speaker 7: walk because the dog's like, well, but some dogs literally
• 2:12:15
  Speaker 7: won't put a foot in water.
• 2:12:17
  Speaker 1: So I know. I went down with her friend to
• 2:12:19
  Speaker 1: swim at the creek yesterday and her friends got her
• 2:12:22
  Speaker 1: dog in a life jacket.
• 2:12:24
  Speaker 7: They don't need that.
• 2:12:25
  Speaker 1: They don't need that. I said to her, I said,
• 2:12:27
  Speaker 1: did she got dog? He's a life jacket. She's oil.
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 1: She'll sink.
• 2:12:33
  Speaker 3: That dog does not know how to swim.
• 2:12:35
  Speaker 7: Does he swim like vertical? Yeah, that's not good.
• 2:12:38
  Speaker 1: That's gonna wear all quick.
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 7: But to answer your question, we did one with a
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 7: breeder in Michigan that breeds German short airs. Yeah, we
• 2:12:45
  Speaker 7: have a training one about the water. We're editing one
• 2:12:48
  Speaker 7: currently with the Wine Mariner breed. Got it, Uh, we're
• 2:12:52
  Speaker 7: going to what we're going to do. A wire haired
• 2:12:55
  Speaker 7: pointing griffin breeder, and then a labraader, and then a
• 2:12:59
  Speaker 7: poodle point breeder. Got it, poodle pointers, Not think of poodle,
• 2:13:02
  Speaker 7: it's pu d e l. It's a German breed. We're
• 2:13:05
  Speaker 7: gonna do that, I'm boise. So it's gonna be probably
• 2:13:10
  Speaker 7: one a month until you know, we say, okay, Matt,
• 2:13:14
  Speaker 7: quit your day job.
• 2:13:16
  Speaker 1: And someday you might tackle the hounds. And oh absolutely.
• 2:13:19
  Speaker 7: In fact, if Frank Gettings could be alive for long enough,
• 2:13:23
  Speaker 7: I mean he might. But you also have to have
• 2:13:25
  Speaker 7: the person that's good on the microphone too, which sure
• 2:13:27
  Speaker 7: I always remember, like you had the first show Wild
• 2:13:30
  Speaker 7: Within and you did that moose hunt and I specifically
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 7: asked you how come you didn't have the guy on
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 7: camera with you very much? And he says he just, well,
• 2:13:38
  Speaker 7: come on, no, all right, Well, I'm just saying you
• 2:13:42
  Speaker 7: have to find the right not just the right breeder,
• 2:13:44
  Speaker 7: but the right conversationalist.
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:13:47
  Speaker 7: They can be great at what they do, but they
• 2:13:50
  Speaker 7: don't convey it. So you got so I that's my
• 2:13:53
  Speaker 7: goal is to find the people that can convey their passion.
• 2:13:56
  Speaker 1: Sure, and then your area of expertise is birds.
• 2:13:59
  Speaker 7: You like stuff with others, right, everything, everything that flies.
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 2:14:03
  Speaker 7: But that's why I want to you know, like the
• 2:14:05
  Speaker 7: hounds is going to be a tough one to do.
• 2:14:07
  Speaker 7: You know, there there's houndsmen that don't follow any pedigree,
• 2:14:13
  Speaker 7: like they'll just they'll breed another outside type of hound.
• 2:14:16
  Speaker 7: There's what is there seven basic hounds m H five Yeah,
• 2:14:21
  Speaker 7: saving seven. So if if Brent wanted to take his
• 2:14:26
  Speaker 7: walk what is your reading tree and walker and he
• 2:14:31
  Speaker 7: did it to Yanni's redbone or blue tech, that's the
• 2:14:37
  Speaker 7: hound joke and they bring them together, they probably get
• 2:14:40
  Speaker 7: the same money for him. Oh it's it's more of
• 2:14:44
  Speaker 7: a sarcastic.
• 2:14:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you mean, like you you like a walkers, you're
• 2:14:50
  Speaker 1: down on red bones and bluetooth anything else?
• 2:14:52
  Speaker 7: Right, not really, but only among friends, right, So the houndsman,
• 2:14:59
  Speaker 7: Like for me, I'm gonna have to find the houndsman
• 2:15:01
  Speaker 7: who probably has a ten generation pedigree on his dogs.
• 2:15:07
  Speaker 7: And really collectively and consciously it's like no, no, no,
• 2:15:11
  Speaker 7: her her, her grandma did the same thing. Literally stood
• 2:15:16
  Speaker 7: into kennel, barked and made circles. And you'll see that
• 2:15:19
  Speaker 7: follow in litters of dogs all of a sudden and
• 2:15:22
  Speaker 7: briers like, oh my god, that's just like her great
• 2:15:24
  Speaker 7: aunt drove me crazy and it just pops up. Right,
• 2:15:29
  Speaker 7: So I'm going to have to find a hound breeders
• 2:15:31
  Speaker 7: that are like you guys Yianni and Brent might.
• 2:15:34
  Speaker 1: Have to help got his dog from the dog.
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 7: Well, I'm not gonna go to the but you're meeting
• 2:15:38
  Speaker 7: so many you know, houndsmen. There's got to be that
• 2:15:41
  Speaker 7: houndsman out there that like knows that breed like the
• 2:15:44
  Speaker 7: plots do like like like obviously I would go to
• 2:15:47
  Speaker 7: Bob plot to learn about the plot hounds.
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 1: I didn't know. The plots are still the plots.
• 2:15:53
  Speaker 7: Yeah, the plots are the plots still yep from Johanna's plot.
• 2:15:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of times they come like the Dickenson's
• 2:16:01
  Speaker 1: or something over time, right, really still the plots patrilineal descent.
• 2:16:05
  Speaker 7: Well, obviously there's some you know, some coyotes and some
• 2:16:09
  Speaker 7: other stuff probably happened.
• 2:16:11
  Speaker 1: There's something in that, there's something in the woodpile.
• 2:16:14
  Speaker 7: But for the most part, yes, yeah, like Clay would
• 2:16:18
  Speaker 7: know all about Like Clay could lock me up with
• 2:16:20
  Speaker 7: a bunch of good ones.
• 2:16:21
  Speaker 1: So behind the dog dot.
• 2:16:23
  Speaker 7: Com, behind the dog films dot.
• 2:16:24
  Speaker 1: Com, behind the dog films dot com.
• 2:16:26
  Speaker 7: I don't think we could get behind the dog for
• 2:16:28
  Speaker 7: some reason.
• 2:16:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you look for u r ls.
• 2:16:32
  Speaker 7: There was behind the chicken, behind the horse, behind the dog,
• 2:16:34
  Speaker 7: behind the cat, like we kick it.
• 2:16:36
  Speaker 1: U r L's getting hard to come by, man. That's
• 2:16:38
  Speaker 1: why places now to make up words to be Hulu whatever.
• 2:16:41
  Speaker 1: You just make up words because you can't check it
• 2:16:43
  Speaker 1: because nothing checks out anymore, right.
• 2:16:44
  Speaker 7: Right, So, yeah, it's behind the dog films dot com
• 2:16:48
  Speaker 7: and uh.
• 2:16:49
  Speaker 1: And and upland instu is still kicking an asswer No.
• 2:16:52
  Speaker 7: Oh yeah, yeah, now that that's a that's a complete
• 2:16:55
  Speaker 7: four and a half hour training course. Yeah, yeah, still
• 2:16:58
  Speaker 7: available these Oh yeah, it'll be available till the internet
• 2:17:01
  Speaker 7: blows up, got or till we hit the little button
• 2:17:05
  Speaker 7: in the background it says disabled. No, you can download
• 2:17:07
  Speaker 7: it yourself. It's not downloadable. Otherwise you could just give
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 7: it to your friend. Yeah, this is this is a
• 2:17:14
  Speaker 7: pay system right now. We charged four ninety nine to
• 2:17:17
  Speaker 7: watch it, and we're not sure if that's the model
• 2:17:21
  Speaker 7: it's going to stay at. Yeah, but literally, just to
• 2:17:25
  Speaker 7: earn the money to keep going to the next town,
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 7: we like we had to monetize it before it was
• 2:17:30
  Speaker 7: big enough to monetize in another fashion. So, but it's
• 2:17:34
  Speaker 7: it's honestly, it's I don't know, Yanna you you did?
• 2:17:36
  Speaker 7: You get to watch the rest of it with.
• 2:17:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we did, we did. If you like dogs, you're
• 2:17:40
  Speaker 3: gonna love it. There's a bunch of shots that dogs
• 2:17:42
  Speaker 3: running around all over there and.
• 2:17:43
  Speaker 7: Some interesting conversation about that.
• 2:17:45
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, behind the Dogfilms dot com. That's it all right,
• 2:17:49
  Speaker 1: and and then and then tell folks how to find
• 2:17:51
  Speaker 1: yourself there real quick? Is there a preferred way? Texas
• 2:17:55
  Speaker 1: A and M Texas A and M.
• 2:17:57
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 2:17:57
  Speaker 1: Do you want people to write in with all kinds
• 2:17:59
  Speaker 1: of things like, hey, I got this one dog.
• 2:18:02
  Speaker 6: I get a lot of interesting emails.
• 2:18:04
  Speaker 1: What's the thing you'd be most interested in hearing about
• 2:18:07
  Speaker 1: if the museum had a dire wolf? Uh?
• 2:18:11
  Speaker 6: Yeah, well I get a lot of people asking me
• 2:18:13
  Speaker 6: about dire wolves, are saying that they think they have
• 2:18:14
  Speaker 6: dire wolf stuff at various museums.
• 2:18:16
  Speaker 1: What's the most annoying email you get? This will help
• 2:18:19
  Speaker 1: people not email.
• 2:18:21
  Speaker 6: Like ancient alien dog.
• 2:18:26
  Speaker 2: You don't want those theories.
• 2:18:30
  Speaker 1: I'm listening to this show. Email is in an alien
• 2:18:33
  Speaker 1: dog theory, Man.
• 2:18:35
  Speaker 4: Do you like Steve though and explain what the theory
• 2:18:37
  Speaker 4: would be actually, So, I.
• 2:18:40
  Speaker 6: Get a lot of people saying that dogs are actually
• 2:18:43
  Speaker 6: aliens that have come from the Dog Star Cirrus, and
• 2:18:48
  Speaker 6: that that some genetic material has come out of the
• 2:18:52
  Speaker 6: star arrived on Earth and that dogs have appeared from there.
• 2:18:59
  Speaker 6: And I'm dumb for this is a thing. It's a thing.
• 2:19:08
  Speaker 6: It must be like on the internet somewhere that the
• 2:19:12
  Speaker 6: dog star is serious?
• 2:19:13
  Speaker 3: Is you know a Westy and then that star? It
• 2:19:20
  Speaker 3: just makes more sense the star.
• 2:19:25
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 2:19:25
  Speaker 1: The writer Joan Didion speaks about this, and this is
• 2:19:31
  Speaker 1: pre internet. The writer Joan Didion and slouching towards Bethlehem.
• 2:19:35
  Speaker 1: She talks about how some people cope with how much information.
• 2:19:40
  Speaker 1: There's so much information, and you you face a fork
• 2:19:45
  Speaker 1: in the road where you are interested in the subject,
• 2:19:49
  Speaker 1: let's say like geopolitics, dogs, whatever, economy, economics. You go like, Man,
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 1: I could take the fork that would be to just
• 2:19:59
  Speaker 1: to try to digest and understand all of this information.
• 2:20:05
  Speaker 1: Or I could take the fork where I know a
• 2:20:08
  Speaker 1: little thing that no one else knows. Yeah, and that's
• 2:20:12
  Speaker 1: really what's going on, And that's a seductive.
• 2:20:15
  Speaker 6: Little fork dogs are aliens.
• 2:20:17
  Speaker 1: That's where you get That's where so many conspiracy theories
• 2:20:20
  Speaker 1: come from. Is you're just it's it's like there's insurmountable
• 2:20:24
  Speaker 1: amounts of information and you're like, yeah, that seems like
• 2:20:28
  Speaker 1: a lot of work. Yeah, I'm buying this dog star deal, yes,
• 2:20:31
  Speaker 1: because that is just easy and then only I know it.
• 2:20:34
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, a lot of I get a lot of
• 2:20:38
  Speaker 6: emails thought from dog people who are convinced they have
• 2:20:43
  Speaker 6: it all figured out?
• 2:20:45
  Speaker 1: Like do you call them dog people?
• 2:20:46
  Speaker 6: Dog people?
• 2:20:46
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 2:20:47
  Speaker 6: Keeping keep emailing me, keep emailing me. I have some
• 2:20:51
  Speaker 6: good theories in my inbox.
• 2:20:53
  Speaker 1: Okay, so she doesn't want to hear about dog stars,
• 2:20:55
  Speaker 1: but she doesn't want to hear I'm interesting.
• 2:20:59
  Speaker 6: Give me every thing but dog stars. Yeah it.
• 2:21:03
  Speaker 1: Can you get me a dire wolf skull? Anyhow? Anyway,
• 2:21:05
  Speaker 1: look at three D print?
• 2:21:06
  Speaker 6: You want?
• 2:21:08
  Speaker 1: Really you want? You want to take that? That's the
• 2:21:10
  Speaker 1: best I can do? Yeah, yeah, I could.
• 2:21:13
  Speaker 7: Go in the backyard and dig up some skull.
• 2:21:17
  Speaker 6: We can just give you a wolf skull.
• 2:21:19
  Speaker 1: No, no, I want a three D. If I can
• 2:21:22
  Speaker 1: get one, I'd like to have a three D of
• 2:21:24
  Speaker 1: a of a dire wolf yeah, oh, heads up, speaking
• 2:21:27
  Speaker 1: of that, we have Krin. You haven't seen it yet.
• 2:21:29
  Speaker 1: Hunter Spencer's working on a big octopus holding the gaff.
• 2:21:34
  Speaker 1: So it's an octopus. He's got a gaff and he's
• 2:21:37
  Speaker 1: got some shrimp tucked under his arms. Do a t
• 2:21:39
  Speaker 1: shirt run if you've listened to pussing the pot, which
• 2:21:42
  Speaker 1: is also really good on search.
• 2:21:45
  Speaker 3: Dominate, So hind titty, listen to pot cattle, eat your
• 2:21:49
  Speaker 3: nose whatever this one's.
• 2:21:50
  Speaker 1: Going search all right, Well, thank you for joining, Thank
• 2:21:57
  Speaker 1: you for great man. Yeah, Krin, how long were you
• 2:21:59
  Speaker 1: talking about? Get the real dog expert?
• 2:22:01
  Speaker 8: Like years?
• 2:22:04
  Speaker 1: Dogs hundred? Yeah, he already took his head he's done.
• 2:22:09
  Speaker 7: He's like, she doesn't know nothing about the blue shakes.
• 2:22:14
  Speaker 1: He took his headset off. He's done.
• 2:22:16
  Speaker 3: Any more funny than that, Come on.
• 2:22:19
  Speaker 1: It was a headset drop. All right, thanks everybody.
• 2:22:24
  Speaker 7: Oh r.
• 2:22:35
  Speaker 6: O seal rey sho like silver in the sun. Right
• 2:22:48
  Speaker 6: right alone, sweetheart.
• 2:22:54
  Speaker 9: We don't beat this damn of course today, taking no
• 2:23:00
  Speaker 9: HM and ride away. We're done beat this damned parsday,
• 2:23:09
  Speaker 9: So take a new one and ride on.
• 2:23:21
  Speaker 6: H