Latest / Conversations: Special Guests with Preston Scott / Author Douglas Brunt - "The Lost Empire of Emanuel Nobel"

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Author Douglas Brunt - "The Lost Empire of Emanuel Nobel" · Conversations: Special Guests with Preston Scott

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  Speaker 2: All right, let's get going.
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  Speaker 1: It's the third and final hour of the Morning Show
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  Speaker 1: with Preston Scott. Good to be with you this morning, friends.
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  Speaker 1: It is Show fifty six eight. Jose running the broadcast
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  Speaker 1: as always, and I am here relegated in Studio one B,
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  Speaker 1: and I want to share quickly how this came about.
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  Speaker 1: You know that I'm a nerd on history. You know
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  Speaker 1: that I only do interviews with authors of history nonfiction.
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  Speaker 1: I do not want I just don't waste my time
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  Speaker 1: reading novels. Hardly ever. And a listener said, have you
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  Speaker 1: seen Douglas Brunt's new book, The Lost Empire of Emmanuel Nobel?
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  Speaker 2: I said no.
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  Speaker 1: She said, well, it's coming out in May, and this
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  Speaker 1: is like two months ago. And so I reached out
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  Speaker 1: to Simon and Schuster and joining me on the program
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  Speaker 1: is the author of the book, Douglas Brunt. Douglas, you
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  Speaker 1: are making at least one listener like overjoyed being on
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  Speaker 1: this program. Big fan of yours, she is, Thanks for
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  Speaker 1: making time for me this.
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  Speaker 2: How are you today?
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  Speaker 3: I'm great, my pleasure. It's great to be here.
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  Speaker 2: Set the scene for the book.
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  Speaker 1: Here, talk to us about what is happening in history
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  Speaker 1: in the area known as Russia today and at times
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  Speaker 1: the Soviet Union. What was going on in the nineteenth
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  Speaker 1: and early twentieth century that we need to know.
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  Speaker 3: Well, Emmanuel Nobel, I think folks will recognize the last
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  Speaker 3: name is the nephew of Alfred Nobel, the inventor of
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  Speaker 3: dynamite and the person who established Nobel prizes. So Emmanuel
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  Speaker 3: is the nephew who is living in Russia, and you
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  Speaker 3: know present, it's a story. The effort to capture the
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  Speaker 3: sources of energy around the world is the story of
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  Speaker 3: our times. You know, we open up a newspaper today,
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  Speaker 3: it's on every page of Venezuela, Iran. Russia is essentially
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  Speaker 3: one of the largest suppliers of energy in the world,
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  Speaker 3: and it's been that way for more than one hundred years.
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  Speaker 3: Emanueal Nobel pioneered the Russian oil industry in the south
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  Speaker 3: of the Russian Empire what's modern day Azerbaijan, by the
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  Speaker 3: Caspian Sea and the Caucasu was part of the Russian
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  Speaker 3: Empire at that time. He bought land there in the
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  Speaker 3: eighteen seventies, just after Rockefeller had established standard oil in America,
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  Speaker 3: and he took the American playbook to how you develop
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  Speaker 3: the oil drilling apparatus and the refining infrastructure, and the
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  Speaker 3: pipelines and the railroads, and he implemented the American playbook
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  Speaker 3: in the south of Russia that was the most abundant
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  Speaker 3: petroleum area in the world. And we don't really know
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  Speaker 3: the name of Manual Nobel today. We only know Alfred
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  Speaker 3: who was outside of Russia. But by the Great War,
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  Speaker 3: by nineteen fourteen, Emmanuel Nobel controlled more oil than anyone
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  Speaker 3: in the world. His oil company that he built along
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  Speaker 3: the Caspian Sea was larger than standard oil by World
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  Speaker 3: War One. And then the collision he had with Joseph
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  Speaker 3: Stalin and the Communists around the time of the Russian
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  Speaker 3: Revolution in nineteen seven. Team that coalition and what Stalin
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  Speaker 3: did to Emmanuel Nobel was the inspiration for George Orwell's
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  Speaker 3: nineteen eighty four, that novel that he wrote. I know
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  Speaker 3: you mentioned don't read a lot of novels, but this
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  Speaker 3: one you probably know about it.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely, there's.
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  Speaker 3: A there's a passage in there where they say, renamed
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  Speaker 3: the streets and they tore down the statues and they
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  Speaker 3: rewrote the history. That's that what Orwell was talking about.
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  Speaker 3: There is what Stalin and the Communists did to all
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  Speaker 3: the industrialists in the Russian Empire when the Communists took
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  Speaker 3: over and nationalized all the industry. Nobel was the biggest
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  Speaker 3: industrialist in the Russian Empire at had time. They essentially
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  Speaker 3: nationalized and stole his whole business Empire and renamed it
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  Speaker 3: Nobel Brothers Petroleum Company became the Soviet Petroleum Company. And
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  Speaker 3: the story of Emmanuel Nobel has been lost to the
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  Speaker 3: West until this book.
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  Speaker 1: We got a short little moment here before we take
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  Speaker 1: a quick break, Douglas, But how did this story fall
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  Speaker 1: into your lap? What what lit the fire for this?
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  Speaker 3: My prior book was about Rudolph Diesel, who invented a
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  Speaker 3: diesel engine, and he and he disappeared right before World
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  Speaker 3: War One, And when he brought the diesel engine to
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  Speaker 3: the world in eighteen ninety seven, he licensed it by
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  Speaker 3: national territory. And the person who took the license to
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  Speaker 3: the diesel engine for the Russian Empire was an annual Nobel.
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  Speaker 3: So I first stumbled across these Russian Nobels that no
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  Speaker 3: one's ever heard of. We only know Alfred right, you know.
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  Speaker 3: But there was this whole larger industrial concern of the
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  Speaker 3: other side of the Nobel family, and I discovered them
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  Speaker 3: through Rudolph Diesel back with.
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  Speaker 1: Author Douglas Brunt. He's a New York Times bestseller of
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  Speaker 1: the book The Last Empire of Emmanual Nobel. Douglas how
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  Speaker 1: do you resurrect and research a part of history, not
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  Speaker 1: only from Russia, but the Stalin era where they notoriously
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  Speaker 1: made people disappear.
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  Speaker 3: There are a couple of good ways to go about it.
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  Speaker 3: The first after nineteen ninety one, when the Soviet Union
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  Speaker 3: felt a lot of archives became available to the West
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  Speaker 3: that had great in for me nation on Stalin's for
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  Speaker 3: early years things that were harder to acquire before nineteen
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  Speaker 3: ninety one. He kind of hid some of his early
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  Speaker 3: days because he was basically a gangster. He was born
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  Speaker 3: in the country of Georgia in the south of the
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  Speaker 3: Russian Empire, the caspimc, so he actually grew up right
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  Speaker 3: next to these crazy oil fields of the Nobel's. The
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  Speaker 3: other large oil concern at that time in the south
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  Speaker 3: of Russia was run by Rothschild family, So it's kind
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  Speaker 3: of the Nobels and the Rothschild and Stalins worked in
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  Speaker 3: the Rothschild and Nobel oil fields, and he was also
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  Speaker 3: sort of running protection screen schemes and robbing payroll trucks
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  Speaker 3: and you know all this crazy stuff where he would
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  Speaker 3: take those that money and ship it off to Lenin
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  Speaker 3: to try to help fund the Bolshevik party. So he
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  Speaker 3: was essentially a gangster and has worked to conceal that,
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  Speaker 3: you know, early part of his life. But there was
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  Speaker 3: also a lot of great, you know, real treasures to
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  Speaker 3: research in the Nobel history that made it out of
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  Speaker 3: Azerbaijan and back who modern day as Vajehan that was
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  Speaker 3: been part of the Russian Empire. A lot of information
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  Speaker 3: it's made it out to Stockholm in Sweden, which is
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  Speaker 3: where the Nobel family had originated. The grandfather of Emmanuel
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  Speaker 3: was from Stockholm, and Alfred Nobel had returned to Sweden
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  Speaker 3: as well, so there's a lot of stuff from the
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  Speaker 3: Alfred Nobel side, but also the Russian Nobels in Sweden.
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  Speaker 3: So I spent a lot of time in archives around
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  Speaker 3: Stockholm where they had pulled some of that material out
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  Speaker 3: of Baku, old photos of the oil operations, and they
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  Speaker 3: actually designed the very first oil tanker in the world.
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  Speaker 3: People you know, well that can't be done. But the
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  Speaker 3: Nobel is actually designed steel cisterns inside the hull of
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  Speaker 3: ships that could you know, survive the pounding of the
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  Speaker 3: open ocean. They were the first to do that and
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  Speaker 3: really stunned standard oil because suddenly they're sending enormous quantities
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  Speaker 3: of oil across the oceans to you know, markets around
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  Speaker 3: the world, and so there was tons of information there.
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  Speaker 3: I spent a lot of time in Stockholm sifting through
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  Speaker 3: all that and it was a really fun part of
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  Speaker 3: book together.
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  Speaker 1: This might be like stupid question, but are there any
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  Speaker 1: living descendants of Emmanuel Nobel?
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  Speaker 3: Well, he did, he never had kids, but there are
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  Speaker 3: tons of Nobels around the world now that are still
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  Speaker 3: involved with the Nobel Foundation and the awarding of the prize.
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  Speaker 3: But the kids are all from his from his siblings. Okay,
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  Speaker 3: Alfred had no kids and Emmanuel had no kids, but
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  Speaker 3: there were other Nobel brothers who did have lots of kids,
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  Speaker 3: So there are hundreds of novels that can sort of
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  Speaker 3: tie back to the family.
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  Speaker 1: I would imagine writing a book like this. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: there's so much intrigue when you start weaving in the
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  Speaker 1: story of the Soviet Union and the expansion of Stalinism.
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  Speaker 1: But I would imagine it you become almost like a
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  Speaker 1: friend to Emmanuel Nobel as you're researching this What surprised
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  Speaker 1: you the most as you learned about this man.
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  Speaker 3: Well, that's exactly right. You read all the letters and
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  Speaker 3: the journal entries, and you do start to develop a
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  Speaker 3: connection with the person, even though you know he died
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  Speaker 3: nearly one hundred years ago. One thing that surprised me
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  Speaker 3: was how involved he was with the turn of Russia
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  Speaker 3: from the Tsars of the Romanov dynasty into communist Soviet Russia.
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  Speaker 3: And it makes sense when you think about because he
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  Speaker 3: controlled the oil, and oil was key. You know, World
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  Speaker 3: War one was the first mechanized war, the first war
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  Speaker 3: where we had planes and tanks and trucks and ships
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  Speaker 3: running fuel oil instead of poll and so everyone needed
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  Speaker 3: the oil. And when the Russian Revolution happened, Lenin and
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  Speaker 3: Stalin were thinking, we need to nationalize all the oil,
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  Speaker 3: but we need the help of the oil industrialists otherwise,
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  Speaker 3: you know, we don't know how to pump oil and
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  Speaker 3: refine it. We need these guys to help us. So
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  Speaker 3: Emmanuel Nobel is a refugee in this resort town in
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  Speaker 3: southern Russia that's buffered by the White Army that opposes communism.
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  Speaker 3: And he's writing to the British, who are, you know,
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  Speaker 3: just wrapping up World War One. They're sort of figuring
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  Speaker 3: out the peace terms. And he's like, the British currently
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  Speaker 3: hold Backou where all the oil is in southern Russia.
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  Speaker 3: But there's only about a thousand British troops, which is
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  Speaker 3: nowhere near enough to keep the Red Army, Stalin's Red
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  Speaker 3: Army out of there. And so he writes to the
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  Speaker 3: British government and says, Stalin is coming for the oil
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  Speaker 3: in Bakou. You need to reinforce your position. A thousand
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  Speaker 3: troops is not going to get it done. He's writing
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  Speaker 3: this in the spring of nineteen nineteen, and he says,
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  Speaker 3: by August of nineteen nineteen, Stalin will be here to
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  Speaker 3: take the oil. You've got to get more troops. Here
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  Speaker 3: Churchill is saying the same thing. Churchill's arguing that the
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  Speaker 3: British is send in one hundred thousand troops to Russia.
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  Speaker 3: They can nip this entire communist thing in the butt.
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  Speaker 3: It'll never happen with only one hundred thousand troops, which
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  Speaker 3: is not you know, significant but not much compared to
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  Speaker 3: what they just went through in World War One. But
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  Speaker 3: there's no appetite to do it. They just had this
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  Speaker 3: four year brutal war. They don't want to mess around
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  Speaker 3: in Russian politics and you know, establish a new government there.
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  Speaker 3: They don't send its troops. Things play out exactly as
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  Speaker 3: Emmanual Nobel said they would. Stalin does get there, he
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  Speaker 3: does get the oil, The Reds win the Russian Civil War,
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  Speaker 3: and we have a communist government, but became in a breath.
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  Speaker 3: You know, imagine in a twentieth century in which communism
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  Speaker 3: never appears. Wow, Communism didn't exist anywhere on the planet
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  Speaker 3: until Lenin put it into place in Russia in nineteen seventeen.
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  Speaker 3: But imagine if it couldn't happen, there'd be no communists Russia, China, Korea, Cuba, Vietnam.
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  Speaker 3: None of it would have happened if the British had
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  Speaker 3: listened to Emmanual Nobel and Churchill.
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  Speaker 1: British still aren't listening to much good wisdom these days.
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  Speaker 1: Hang on, Douglas, We're going to continue our discussion The
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  Speaker 1: Last Empire of Emmanuel Nobel. The author Douglas Burnt with
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  Speaker 1: me and the book available, you can get it at
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  Speaker 1: your favorite bookseller. Besides writing New York Times bestsellers. It's like,
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  Speaker 1: oh and by the way, along with that. Doug so
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  Speaker 1: Us brunt our guest is host of the top rated
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  Speaker 1: Serious exam Author podcast Dedicated with Douglas Brunt. All Right,
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  Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about that real quick.
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  Speaker 3: That's a really fun show, and it's a great sort
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  Speaker 3: of side hustle that I have because you're writing is
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  Speaker 3: a fairly solitary gig. You know, it is some research
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  Speaker 3: and I travel around a bit. I mean, a few
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  Speaker 3: people writing, but mostly I'm in my office. So that
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  Speaker 3: the show dedicated that I do, it's comes out of
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  Speaker 3: the podcast on YouTube and on serious Radio. I interview
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  Speaker 3: great writers. So it's a chance to sort of get
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  Speaker 3: out of my little bunker and meet some writers that
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  Speaker 3: I really admire. And I've had fiction and non fiction,
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  Speaker 3: you know, everything from Lee Child to Ammore Tolls to
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  Speaker 3: Eric Larson and David Grant and others, and so I
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  Speaker 3: have them on the show. We always do it in
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  Speaker 3: person on set, and we start each show with me
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  Speaker 3: fixing the guest's favorite cocktail. So Eric Larson had a
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  Speaker 3: Rye Manhattan, Lee Child of Chantaigne any more tolls was
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: the Negroni And so I'll fix the drink pack there
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  Speaker 3: on the set and then we'll just have a drink together.
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  Speaker 3: And for the audience, it's like sitting next to us
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  Speaker 3: in a bar as we kind of shoot the breeze
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  Speaker 3: and we talk about the writer's life and work and
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  Speaker 3: interests and some of the recent books. But it's more
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: of a conversation about how they approached the craft and
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  Speaker 3: how they got started in writing, and it's just a
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  Speaker 3: lot of fun.
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  Speaker 1: I want to jump in on that and kind of
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  Speaker 1: tie it back to our topic here, which is your
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  Speaker 1: latest book, The Lost Empire of Emmanuel Nobel, again available
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  Speaker 1: at all the book outlets, friends that you might use.
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  Speaker 1: Did you get were there moments as you're researching and
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  Speaker 1: or writing where I just kind of imagined that as
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  Speaker 1: I was going through the book and reading it, there
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  Speaker 1: had to be moments where you almost pushed back in
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  Speaker 1: your chair and almost maybe even out loud, went wow,
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  Speaker 1: as you just kind of pulled together this piece of information,
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  Speaker 1: learned that piece of information. Did you have those moments
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  Speaker 1: and what are those like?
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  Speaker 3: It is It's like it's like the nerdy side of
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  Speaker 3: Indiana Jones. You know, when you discover like a gold
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  Speaker 3: nugget of information and like, this is even crazier than
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  Speaker 3: I had realized when I set out to take on
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  Speaker 3: this story. You know, I knew I had a great story,
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  Speaker 3: and then I had to cover something like, oh my gosh,
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  Speaker 3: it's it's crazier than I knew. Yeah, you know, letters
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  Speaker 3: from Nobel to Balfour describing what's going on with Dalin.
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  Speaker 3: You know, I knew there was a connection with Emmanuel
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  Speaker 3: Nobel and Stalin, but I didn't realize how deeply personal
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  Speaker 3: it was, or his involvement in you know, the Revolution
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  Speaker 3: and the Civil War and the outcomes and the significance
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  Speaker 3: of his oil concern. So, yeah, everyone's wanting you. You
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  Speaker 3: uncover some page out of an archive and you to
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  Speaker 3: someone else you think, oh, well, that's kind of interesting.
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  Speaker 3: But in the context of the story that I'm pulling together,
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  Speaker 3: the connections I can draw from that one piece of
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  Speaker 3: information can be fantastic. And so those are very exciting moments, you.
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  Speaker 1: Know, when I got the advanced reader's version, and for
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  Speaker 1: those of you that might not know, this is what
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  Speaker 1: they push out to the media for us to get
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  Speaker 1: a chance to look at the book in advance. It's
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  Speaker 1: not the final, final, final copy, but it's pretty much
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  Speaker 1: the final copy. I read the prologue, Doug, and I
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  Speaker 1: just was like, oh wait, you can't stop there. It
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  Speaker 1: was like the most incredible written teaser, and it set
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  Speaker 1: the stage for the rest of that book so brilliantly.
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  Speaker 2: Well, what do you want people to take away? Big picture?
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  Speaker 1: Obviously, the nuggets inside the book will speak for themselves.
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  Speaker 1: But if there was something that you kind of hope
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  Speaker 1: that people glean from this, what is it?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I would say that the collision between Emmanuel Nobel
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  Speaker 3: and Joseph Stalin is the greatest sliding doors moment in history. Okay,
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  Speaker 3: the idea that Lenin and Stalin and Trotsky and communism
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  Speaker 3: in Russia was the least likely outcome, and through a
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  Speaker 3: series of totally bizarre events and things sort of breaking
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  Speaker 3: the way of the Communists, they do prevail by Emmanuel
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  Speaker 3: Nobel and his oil in the south of Russia are
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  Speaker 3: at the heart of the whole thing.
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  Speaker 1: It's a wonderful story and I'm really grateful that you
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  Speaker 1: made the time for us this morning, Douglas, and best
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  Speaker 1: of success on your book and its sales, and the
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  Speaker 1: next time you write, make sure the folks over at
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  Speaker 1: Simon and Schuster look us up.
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely, what a pleasure.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me on my pleasure.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you, Sir Douglas Brunt with us and again this
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: interview will be on our Conversations podcast. And the book
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: is The Lost Empire of Emmanuel Nobel. What did you
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: do when you heard the whole communist movement could have
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: been snuffed if they'd listen to Churchill? A history altering
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: moment of inaction by the Brits. I'm gonna be talking
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: about that for a while this Morning Show with Preston
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  Speaker 1: Scott