Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / A video, voice recording & DNA, but NO SUSPECT in the murders of two teen girls in Delphi, Indiana

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A video, voice recording & DNA, but NO SUSPECT in the murders of two teen girls in Delphi, Indiana · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: How do two little girls get abducted and murdered basically
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: in broad delight? And why have years passed and the
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: case is still unsolved even though we believe the perp,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: the killer is caught not only by camera but by audio.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense to me. And now the victims
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: families are asking why crime stories With Nancy Grace, I'm
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: talking about two beautiful little girls that are abducted and
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: murdered in Delphi. I mean it, see Grace, this is
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: crime stories. Let's start by hearing from Libby's grandma what happened?
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Tell me that day from the time they got there
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: for dinner. Well, they went upstairs. Of course, Abbey come
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: bringing in a big old tote of paint. Yeah, they
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: were gonna paint. Of course Libby's room wh nearly as
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: organized as Abbey's her stuffs everywhere still is um. He
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: walked through and you find some paint here, and you
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: find some paint there, and all of our other stuff.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: So they went upstairs, and of course, you know how
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: kids do, They take lots of selfies and videos, and
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: so we know what they were doing that night because
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Libby did some videos and of Abby there painting and
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: we there is there is a canvas there of where
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: they started a new painting, said chocolate. Imagine that I
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: was right. I can't remember, like there was something wrong
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: with one of the letters. That was. So they they
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: were up in the room doing their their thing, and
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: they of course they're up half the night. Girl stuff
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: girls talking to them. Whatever you're hearing Grandma Becky Patty
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: speaking to me at crime con in a live podcast
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: in an effort to help solve the murders of Libby
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: and Abigail. But guess what, they're not solved. We want justice.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, we have who we believe to be the
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: killer on camera and on audio. I guarantee you there's
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: gonna be DNA at that crime seat. So where's the purp?
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: With me an all star panel to break it down
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: and put it back together again. Crimline dot Com investigative
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: reporter Alexis Terreschuk joining US professors Jacksonville State University and
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet, death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: the founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: and colleague Cheryl McCollum. Psychologists joining me out of New York.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Karen Stark at Karen Stark dot com, judge and trial lawyer,
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Court TV anchor Ashley Wilcott, and special guests joining me
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: now Libby's sister Kelsey German. Kelsey, let me just start
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: with you. I don't believe two or three days passed
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: by that I don't think about Libby and Abigail Kelsey.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: When you think of them, what goes through your mind?
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Collision of thoughts? I'm sure. Yeah. When I think of them,
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: I try to think of all the good memories and
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: not the bad ones. But most of the time I'm
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: just trying to rerect my brain thinking about who could
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: possibly do something like this in such a small town.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: So I spend a lot of time just thinking about
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: all the good memories I have with both of them.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: You know. I do that too with my fiance, who,
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: as you know, was murdered just before our wedding, and
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: my dad, who passed away recently. I think of all
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: the good things. Once in a while, the thoughts of
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: their death or funeral invade my happy thoughts, and I
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: push it away because I don't want to think about that.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: When those thoughts do come to you, Kelsey German, what
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: do you think um. Usually during that time I do
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: try to push them away, but I also I also
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: go to my therapist pretty quickly when those come, because
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: when those come, I usually end up having some really
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: bad nightmares at the end of the night. And so
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: so usually during that you have really bad nightmares, You
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: have really bad nightmares. What do you dream? I still
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: have those nightmares about Keith, my fiance still to this day.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: What is your dream, Kelsey. I'm very curious. There's a
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: lot of times I'll dream about being in the woods
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: with them that day and crossing the bridge and trying
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: to trying to help them, but I can't get to them,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: and I'll sometimes I'll see his face, or sometimes it'll
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: just be a blurry vision of him coming towards me.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: It just kind of depends on the thoughts that I
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: have before. Then. You know, that's very similar to the
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: dream I often have still about Keith. I dream that
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: I know where he is and I have an address.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: Let's just pretend it's forty three Kelsey German Road, and
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: I'm looking and it's getting dark, and I hear voices
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: and I think it's him, and I get to forty
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: one forty two and it skips to forty four, the
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: street address. I'm like, whoa, WHOA, Where's forty three? And
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: I cut down an alley and then another alley, and
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: I'm looking and it's I can hear their voices, but
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: I can't find him. Dreams like that. I know our
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: shrink today, Who's awesome. Karen Start would say, it's not
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: good to repress memories or push them away from your
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: mind when they come. But you know, sometimes life is
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: just easier that way, not to think of the painful thing.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: You know. I don't believe she would have these nightmares
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: as much, Cheryl McCollum if we had an answer, because
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: if you noticed Libby's liberty, Libby's sister said a lot
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: of times, his face, the perps face is blurry. You
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: know why, because we don't know who he is, because
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: he hasn't been caught. Cheryl McCallum, what's the problem that's
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: a part of this case, Nancy, that it's done me
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: for over three years. We've got him on video, got
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: his boy and right now I want to kind of
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: concentrate a little bit on his accent, his accuate eye.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: Get messed this all the time about his accent, right
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: he says, guys down the hill. But if you listen
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: to how he's talking, he's controlled. He's not screaming, he
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: doesn't grit his teeth. He's just given a directive. And
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: that directive tells you he's got a planned spot. This
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: was a planned crum. This was a controlled person who
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: did this deliberately. Okay, does that help me find him?
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I'll have to analyze what you just said.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: He just heard Becky at Patty saying the girls spent
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: their night before painting and talking and laughing and taking
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: incessant videos. I can just imagine that. Take listen to
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: more of what Becky tells me. They slept in and
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: they got up, but I don't know. It's nine thirty,
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: ten o'clock and they had pancakes for breakfast brunch and uh,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: and they came out and said, we want something to do. Well,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: my my office is at home. And I said, dreaded words,
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: what can we do? And I said, you know what,
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: I got some files and need to be filed. You
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: want to make some money? Bet they were. They were
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: out there working away. And especially if you said I'll
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: take a shopping you know you do this for me,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: I'll take a shopping. So they were out there and Kelsey,
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: Libby's sister, come out and said, Hey, I'm gonna stop
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: by a friend's house for a little bit and then
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: I have to be at work for Libby. That's all
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: it took. She jumped up and said, hey, because it
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: was a beautiful day. It was a you know, it
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: was about action. Drop was hey we she and I said, well,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: what about this filing? OK, we'll do it later. I
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: promise we'll do it later. So I said, well that's fine.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: She said, can Kelsey drop us off at the trails?
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: And I said, well, okay, but I'm busy. You're going
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: to have to get a ride home. Guys, you are
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: hearing the grandmother, Liberty's grandmother, Libby Baky Patty telling me
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: about the last day that Liberty and Abigail were saying
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: alive crime stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: the abduction and murder of two precious little girls, basically
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: in broad daylight, and why the family members are still
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: having nightmares to this day with a vague face approaching
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: them in the woods because we don't have the face.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Nobody's behind bars for these heinous murders of two little girls.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: You just heard Becky describing to me how the two
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: girls were filing for some extra money her files, and
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: the moment they got a chance, they decided to go
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: to the park, to the walking trail and said, hey,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: we'll do the files later. When my daughter Lucy says
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: that I'll do it later, we say you'll do it never,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: because that's what that means. But take a listen to
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: what we learned. Then. When did you realize something was
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: not right at all? Well, our whole family was out
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: there looking. We all left. Tara, my daughter went straight
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: over there. Derek was there. My other son come pulling
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: in as I was leaving, and he said, what are
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: you doing. I said, we're gonna go look for the girl.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: So he jumped in the car with me. We drove.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: If if they would have decided to walk home, we
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: drove both directions that they would have gone both routes.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: We got there. We had six cars there. We were
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: taking over everything. We split up. We walked all the trails.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Um Cody and Kelsey went across the bridge. They went.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: They went across and up to the road and up
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: to the houses up there were the sheriffs there yet
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: not yet by this time it was a little after
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: five as they getting dark. Now not yet, it wasn't,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: but I knew it was going And I was on
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: the phone most of the time with AT and T
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: trying to get them to ping her phone. And they won't.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: They won't do it. M Can you imagine Mom in
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: this case, Grandma begging AT and T please ping my
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: girl's phone, and they refused to do it. Joining me,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: Kelsey Germany Thissus, Libby's sister, Karen Start, New York psychologist
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, colk Reshorts Institute, Joe Scott Morgan Forensics, and
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Alexis Terreschik joining me right now, Crime Online dot Com
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: investigative reporter. Also with me, Ashley Wilcot, Court TV anchor
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: Alexis The reserve, the park, it's more of a wooded
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: area with a long hiking trail. Tell me about that
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: trestle bridge, the Momon Bridge. It's huge. It's a huge,
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: old wooden bridge. It's not covered. It's just a regular
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: wooden bridge with wooden planks like looks like almost blogs.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: And it's just in the middle of this park where
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: everybody goes. This is a regular place families take their kids. Girls,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: you're fine with your teenagers, Well you were fine back
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen with your teenagers going there to hang out.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: And so the girls were there playing. It's a deserted
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: area because it was February. It's cold, it's and it's
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: so the girls are there. It's wide open. There are
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: so many pictures of the here. And you know what,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: because these girls are modern day teenagers, they were snapping pictures,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: taking video, putting it on social media, putting it on
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: videos of each other on Snapchat for their entire trips.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: So the second they stopped communicating with each other and
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: with their families, that's when everybody knew that something was
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: wrong in this tranquil area too. Ashley Wilcott, Court TV anchor,
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: judge and trial lawyer. Ashley, we have gone over and
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: over the trail. Tell me what you observed, all right,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: So I was there in March and we walk the trail.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: First of all, it's beautiful. The trail's kind of up
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: so you can see down and you can see the
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Highway from different pieces of it. And then you get
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: to this trustled bridge and let me suggest this. It
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: is so gorgeous. I can see why everybody in the
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: community uses this trail. But Nancy, here's what bothers me.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: I think there's such a comfort level there before this happened,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: the whole community goes there. The fact that she took
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: this recording. I do not believe that she knows this
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: person at all. I believe that they were surprised. They
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: didn't know who it was, but their little spider sense
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: said something's wrong and we're going to video this now.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: The other thing about this trail is, you know, the
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: trail starts by the interstate where you walk over that
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: and then walk the trail, and there's another entrance by
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: a house where these two girls entered the trail. So
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: they walk by this house, they come in a side trail,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: take the main trail to the railroad. So my point is,
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: what's amazing. It's what Cheryl McCullum said. There are people around,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: there's a house where they entered the trail. This is
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: a community. They have a video. Nobody saw anything, nobody
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: heard anything. This is just so disturbing to me. To
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Kelsey German, this is Liberty Libby's sister. You drop them off.
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Question to you, Is this a place where other people
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: were out jogging and walking or were they seemingly all alone? Yeah? Absolutely.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know that I saw anybody at the time,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: but I'd known throughout the day that there were people
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: there all day, people my age and people even younger.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: We're out there that day. I'm just hanging out and
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: enjoying the warm weather of that day. And you can
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: hardly go to a park or a playground or a
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: trail like this and not see people there, which makes
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: it even more confounding that nobody notice this guy. And
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: that leads me to my next question to Liberty's sister Kelsey.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Why would they have taken a video of this guy
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: approaching them on that trustle bridge. True, they took videos
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: of everything, but typically of the doing selfies or doing
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: funny TikTok's or something like that. Why do you believe
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: they would have taken that video of this man approaching
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: them and you could go to crime online and see
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: him just as clearly as I can. Why what would
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: lead them to video or photograph a complete stranger? Kelsey?
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: I think they were worried. I think they were a
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: little creeped out by this person. That was behind them,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: and they were just going to take this video and
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: bring him home and show us and say, hey, look
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: at this really creepy guy that was behind us on
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: the trails today. Why do you say he was behind them? Well,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: the picture of Abby was towards the end of the bridge,
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: and it looks like the guys coming towards them, So
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: I would say he's behind them, or they're walking towards him,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: I guess, you know. And I'm so glad you said that, Kelsey,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: because in my mind, the way I looked at the
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: photo of who I believed to be the killer, I
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: thought they were coming from one end of the bridge
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: and he was coming from the other end. But you
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: just brought up that you believed he had been behind them,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: and that you think they got afraid, creeped out and
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: they took a video. You know what, I'm very curious about, Kelsey,
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: the time of the picture or video of him coming
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: toward them. How close in time was it that one
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: of the girls thought to record him saying go down
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: here and strikeing them to go down into the woods
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: beside the bridge. How close were those two things. I
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: have no idea. I know that the picture was taking
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: it like two or seven, but I don't think there
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: was a timestamp on the interesting. Interesting, So when they're
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: getting his voice telling them, directing them, ordering them to
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: go down the side of the bridge to the wood,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: you don't know what time that was, correct, I do
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: not too special guests joining me now Liberty's grandmother, who
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: I consider to be a friend, who joined us at
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: crime con Becky, Patty Becky, thank you for being with us.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: Thank you for inviting us. Becky. You know I told
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: you when I saw you in person, I'm never letting
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: go of this case until it's solved, until I see
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: it all the way through the appellate route after the conviction,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: and I know this guy is behind bars. Crime Stories
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, we are talking about the disappearance, the kidnap,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: and the murders of two gorgeous girls in Delphi, Abby
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: and Libby Becky. I was just asking Kelsey a question,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: an evidentiary question. You may know the answer from the
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: time the girls took the picture or video of the
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: killer who I believe to be the killer coming toward
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: them on that Trustle Bridge. Guys, look at it at
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: crime A line. You can see the picture. That was
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: at two o seven. How soon after that did they
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: record his voice? Do you know, Becky? No, I do
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: not know a time, but I do know that it
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: happened at the end of the bridge. So I believe
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: that Libby felt trapped and wanted to do something because
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: the trails end at the end of the bridge, so
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: she knew she was at the end of where they
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: were supposed to be. I wonder why she decided to
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: take that video and record him what I've heard it
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: a million times, But Becky, what is he telling the
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: girls to do in the video? He told them to
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: go down the hill? Why do you think they and
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: along with that, Becky, I feel that he took control
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: of them right there. What do you mean do you
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: think you had a weapon? I believe there was something.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Libby wouldn't if somebody just came up to her and said, hey,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: go down the hill, authority figure or not, she would
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: not unless there was something that prompted her. So yes,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: I believe that he somehow took control of them about
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: the time he told them to go down the hill.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: I'm curious if they were taking pictures of other people
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: in the park that day or just to him because typically,
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, basically, this is not what I see my
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: twins doing. They're twelve about their age, and they take videos, selfies,
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: they make TikTok stuff like that, but they don't just
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: take pictures of random people they see at a playground
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: or a part. I've never seen them do that. There
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: was something about this guy that made them video him.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: And the reason I'm asking the time to Joseph Scott Morgan,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: forensics expert an author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: is because I think this is the guy. And if
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: they took the picture, let's just say, thirty seconds later
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: you hear his voice and it's captured on audio, then
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: that's him. I'm looking at the correlation between the photo
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: and the audio of him ordering them off the bridge
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: and down into the woods. Get it? Yeah? Completely? Who else?
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: You know, who else could it be other than this
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: person that they have taken the time to videograph right here.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: And then we have this voice, this voice that's haunted
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: us for you know, these past three years, over and
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: over again, giving them a specific directive. And that's very important,
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: you know, you talk about, you know, how this individual
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: would have taken charge and listen, there's no nonsense in
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: his voice. You know, he is giving them a specific
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: directive and he's giving them a specific location to go to.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: So I would think that this individual was menacing in
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: some way. I don't know if he was holding a weapon,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: if he displayed a weapon. I don't know that he's
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: necessarily a large guy. But you know, when you're a
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: young teenage girl, grown men are going to appear well,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: wait right right there. That's something I don't understand because
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: it's very simple, Cheryl McCollum. Is it not, director a
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: cold case research instit you to measure the handrail on
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: the bridge as he's walking beside it and extrapolate down
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: to the inch as to how tall the guy is,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Is it not, Cheryl McCollum. That's how you do it.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: You take the measurement of a known affixed object such
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: as a car tire or a car, or a bridge
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: or a tree or whatever's there, and you measure it.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Then you can extrapolate and determine almost to the inch
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: the height of this guy. Cheryl McCollum, You can do that,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: may see, But the reality is, we've got a freaking video,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: We've got him walking we've got his clothes, we've got
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: his voice. How many cases have you and I worked
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: together that we had a video of the perpetrator, that
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: we had his voice and the cadence of his walk
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: in the drift zero zero? You know, I'm going to
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: throw that to good point. I'm gonna throw that to
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Libby's grandma, Becky Patty after hearing the voice, seeing the video,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: what is the working theory as to who this guy is?
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: What are police telling you? We've gone through three years,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: We've got his picture, we've got his video, we've got
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: his voice, and I guarantee, I don't know if the
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Cause have told you this or not, but I bet
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: they've got his DNA. What were they saying the guys
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: from based on his accent? Let's see, you know, we
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: don't get a lot more information than what you guys do.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: They haven't, and I don't know that they want to
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: give some of that out. Hi. They do continually say
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: that he is at least has local ties, so that
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: would tell me his accent would probably be from around here.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: That is a very good deduction. Agree or disagree, Cheryl McCollums.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: I actually reached out to a linguist expert that works
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: for Disney, and what he does is he works with
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: actors what they want to take on a certain accent
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: for a movie. And he didn't know anything about the case.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: This was two and a half years ago and I
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: sent him just the clip of Down the Hill. He
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: wrote me back almost immediately and said, rural Indiana. Wow, Cheryl,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: by the way, that was brilliant. Okay, brilliant And based
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: on what you're saying, what the Disney expert is saying,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: and what Becky Patty's telling me, I agree. So I
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: mean I don't get it. Alexis Terrestia Crime online dot
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter. We know he's a local rural Indiana.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: We know what he looks like. We've got his voice. Alexis,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: do you know if there's any DNA? I do not
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: know specifically if there is DNA. But I have spoken
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: with the sheriff Intown many, many, many times, and he
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: told me that say whatever evidence they had, and again,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: they will be there, as Louie's grandmother said, there they hold.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: It's really close to them and they don't share it
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: too much. They don't want to kip off the killer.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: What about the killer, chip off the killer. Today, that
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: cow is out of the barn, the ship has sailed.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: I don't understand that. Is that some police technique Cheryl McComb.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: I mean I've handled cases where we did not release
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: information because it was critical at not get out at
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: that moment. But I mean it's been three years. I
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: think at this point all bet they're off. I think
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: they should release as much as the video as they can,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: as much as his you know pH you know, phrasing
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: to them as they can. He had to have touched them.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: We know that. So touch DNA has got to be
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: on the clothing. This guy's hiding, playing sight, he is
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: watching the media. He's probably gonna listen to this. So
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: again we need to tell him, booze, we got your DNA.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: We're coming. We're not going to stop. The police get
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: three thousand till a week. I mean, come on, look
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: like I don't be doing that. May all be true,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: but nothing is happening that we know of. To Becky
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: Patty Libby's grandmother, Becky, A police told you that they've
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: been able to retrieve DNA and a couple of they
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: have admitted even in a couple of interviews that there
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: is DNA and now adds to how much or what
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: kind or whatever. They have not been specific with us,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: and there may be a reason for that. But we
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: do know that there is DNA, and I do know
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: toab LESSI and B, which is our county sheriff did
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: an interview with our local paper last week or the
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: week before and said that there's a partial fingerprint. Okay,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: I'm torn between happiness that we've got a little bit
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: of evidence there and I'm confounded because if there is
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: DNA and there's a part sho fingerprint, I mean, help me,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: what's happening Time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: about the murders. There's no nice way to say it.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Of two little girls, Abby and Libby Abby Williams, Abigail
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: Libby German Liberty, just thirteen and fourteen. They go out
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: to walk a populated, popular trail and they end up dead.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Can you imagine Becky Patty running through the park that
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: night with all the family trying to find them as
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: it's getting dark, begging at and t to release the
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: peeing records, the cell phone records can't get the info
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: the shot. When they learn their girls. They were just
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: upstairs playing and painting that they're dead at three years
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: pass and no resolution. Back to you, just Scott jumping on.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: What were you saying? Yeah, just like Becky had mentioned
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: a moment ago. I'm first off, I'm shocked I haven't
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: heard this bit of information. There's no reason I would
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Becky's part of the family that they had recovered a
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: partial print. However, this is the caveat. Maybe there is
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: DNA and I've heard a couple of these law enforcement
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: types that are involved in this case state that at
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: least peripherally, and now we have a partial fingerprint. Here
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: is the rub when it all comes down to it.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: We can develop a fingerprint, we can develop a DNA
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: profile perhaps, but if there is nobody, no one to
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: compare it too, then you're kind of left, you know,
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: dangling in the breeze at that point in time. If
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: an individual is not in a database, and I believe
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: this person has offended before Nancy, but I just don't know,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: maybe just be and maybe a misdemeanor where DNA wasn't
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: taken where it may have been in the jurisdiction. But
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: you know, you can put it in the ncis the
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: National Database database. But I want to reiterate what Joe
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: Scott is saying. When you get a fingerprint off a
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: crime scene, off clothes, off a body, people go, oh,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: we got a fingerprint, Well, where are you going to
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: compare it too? You have to have a known print,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: that's the latent or the discovered print at the scene,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: but without anything to compare it too. They're not in
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: the APHIST, the DNA, excuse me, the fingerprint database. And
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: it doesn't mean you're a criminal. You could be like me.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: I was a government servant. My fingerprints are in the database.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: A lot of people are on our program right now
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: have fingerprints in the database for many different reasons. Nancy,
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: If Nancy I please listen. One of the things I've
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: thought about were this case, why were the girls out
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: there where they'd been brought there? Why were they why
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: were they out of school that day? Well, there's an
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: awareness in in this community that school was out that
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: particular day. I think that it was a makeup snow
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: day or whatever it was. It was actually unseasonably warm.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: We combine that with the knowledge that whoever was involved
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: in this had a knowledge that kids were probably out
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: of school that day. Now, that leads me back to
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: another point. I'm not saying that this is the case. However,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: you've got a person that's DNA is not popping up,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: You've got an individual whose prints are not popping up.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: That points me in the direction of age. I'm wondering
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: if this person has committed this crime has not quite
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: passed that age marker yet where they have hit, you know,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: where their career criminal. Maybe this is their first time out,
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: and so that points me to maybe it's a younger
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: person as opposed to think about that image, and I
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: know that you'll probably talk about that and he the
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: newer image that Indiana State Police released is completely different
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: than the initial image that came out, And I think
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: that is a striking point here. The fact that there's
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: nothing on a database and the fact that they change
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: the composite image to make this individual look younger. I
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: think that it might give us an indication this person
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: has maybe not offended at this degree. To this point,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Karen Start with a New York psychologist at Karen Start
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: dot com. Earlier, you heard Kelsey, this is Libby's sister,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: describe the horrible nightmares she endures and very often she's
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: the one in the woods, not Abby and Libby, or
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: with Abby and Libby, and she sees the coming toward her,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: but the face is vague. Is there a chance if
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: this guy's caught, she will see his face and her demons,
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: her nightmares will go away? I think, Nancy, it would
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: certainly help if she could see his face. Will they
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: go away? I think over time, if she keeps work
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: on it. She said she has a therapist, and there
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: is an awful lot that you could do for a
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: traumatic incident like that. But as long as he's out
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: there and she's not able to have a visual I
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: think that that's exactly what's going to happen. What she's
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: thinking about in the daytime, unfortunately, is going to repeat
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: at night in one form or another. And by the way,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: you talked about repression, and that's not a good thing,
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: and I would agree with you, but sometimes it is
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: a defense and after senses are there for a reason.
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: There are times, like you said, if having a thought
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: about someone that you loved who died, if interfering, you
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: want to put it away. But in her case that's
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: very hard to do, you know, Kelseye with me right now,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: Liberty's sister. Do you remember dropping them at the trail? Yeah,
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: I remember it clear as day. We got to the trail,
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: and I remember making sure they both had sweatshirts, and
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: they got out of my car, and Libby turned around
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: and told me she loved me, and I've told her
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: it back, and then I drove away. Do you ever
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: relive that I think back on it. Yeah. I sometimes
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: wish that I wouldn't have dropped them off. So I
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: always think about it and think about how I could
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: have done it differently, or if I should have looked
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: at something else I was there, or maybe I saw
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: something that I'm pushing back into the back of my
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: mind and not thinking about now. So I think about
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: it often. Have police told you whether the girls were assaulted, Becky, No,
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: they haven't told us. They haven't told us. Then I'm
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: not sure that I want to know. I mean, I do,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: but I'm afraid to. I hear you, you know, don't
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: feel alone? Do you know that to this day, I
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: have never been able to bring myself to go back
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: to the spot where my fiance was murdered, never gone there.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: I can't. I don't want to see it. I don't
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: want it in my head. There's enough there already. So
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: I hear you, there's just some things I don't want
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: to know, believe it or not. Well, we already, you know,
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: like Kelsey said, we already we live a lot of
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: that day. Every day it goes through my head, the
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: last moment that I saw Livy or stand and they're
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: smiling at me, and I think, if only I'd have
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: said no. And every day you've you live the different
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: possibilities and scenarios of what those girls could have gone through.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: We think of everything possible, So you already have all
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: these horrors in your mind, so you I don't think
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: you want to know for a fact that maybe they
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: lived that horror. I hear you. You know in my mind,
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: when Keith was murdered, it was just like that, he
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: felt no paying bam it. He was alive one minute
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: and the next minute he was in heaven. That's how
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: I want to think it happened. And I hear you.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: Some days I just don't want to think there's another alternative.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: For all of you listening and watching right now, want
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: you please help us get justice. The tipline is eight
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: four four four to five nine five to seven eight six,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: repeat eight four four four five nine five seven eight six.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: We wait and pray as justice unfalls. Nancy Gray's Crime Story,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: signing off Goodbye friend,