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At The Money: Living a Life of Purpose · Masters in Business

0:02
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
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Speaker 2: What is your financial purpose? What is the value of money,
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Speaker 2: what does it mean for your life, satisfaction and legacy.
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Speaker 2: To help us unpack all of this, let's bring in
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Speaker 2: doctor Jordan Grummitt. He's a physician whose niche is the
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Speaker 2: intersection of money, mortality, purpose, and regret. He's worked in
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Speaker 2: internal medicine and hospice care. His book, The Purpose Code
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Speaker 2: helps people understand their purpose, connection, and legacy. So let's
1:03
Speaker 2: begin very basically, what do people get wrong when they
1:06
Speaker 2: say they're searching for purpose? Oh, my god, so much so.
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Speaker 3: First and foremost, most people think of purpose as their why.
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Speaker 3: And I actually think this is very dangerous because when
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Speaker 3: you think of your purpose as your why, it becomes
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Speaker 3: this big, audacious thing, like a needle in a haystack,
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Speaker 3: and there are high stakes in getting it right. I
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Speaker 3: actually define purpose as something completely different. I think purpose
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Speaker 3: are the things we do that light us up in
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Speaker 3: the present and future. That is it very easy, very
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Speaker 3: easy to control, not a needle in a haystack. They
1:41
Speaker 3: really confuse what I call purpose and meaning. A lot
1:43
Speaker 3: of people think they're the same thing, but meaning gets
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Speaker 3: more to our why. It's more about our past. But
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Speaker 3: purpose is really straightforward, and when you look at it
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Speaker 3: as straightforward, it becomes just much easier. What can I
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Speaker 3: do today that lights me up and is exciting?
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Speaker 2: And you just stinguish between purpose that creates anxiety and
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Speaker 2: the kinds of purpose that creates meaning. Explain the difference.
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Speaker 3: So when I wrote my first book, Taking Stock, I
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Speaker 3: made the point that we should be putting purpose, identity,
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Speaker 3: and connections before wealth building. Not that we should put
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Speaker 3: wealth building aside, but we need to think about those
2:21
Speaker 3: things so we can then build a framework of wealth
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Speaker 3: around them. And I went to talk about this book
2:26
Speaker 3: of conferences and people would look at me, and I'd
2:29
Speaker 3: always get one in the crowd would come up to
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Speaker 3: me afterwards, and they'd be angry, they'd be sweaty, and
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Speaker 3: they'd say, will you stop telling me to find my purpose.
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Speaker 3: I've been searching forever. I don't know what it is.
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Speaker 3: I'm totally frustrated and anxious. I don't even think there
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Speaker 3: is a purpose. Please stop people telling people to find
2:47
Speaker 3: the purpose. So me, being a physician, I'm like, I
2:49
Speaker 3: need to do some research on this. And what I
2:52
Speaker 3: found was a paradox. When I did the research. There's
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Speaker 3: so many studies out there that say that having a
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Speaker 3: sense of purpose increases our our happiness, our health, and
3:01
Speaker 3: our longevity. There are tons and tons of papers. But
3:04
Speaker 3: then I saw other research, especially by this lady named
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Speaker 3: Larissa Rainey, who found that up to ninety one percent
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Speaker 3: of people, at some point in their life feel purpose anxiety.
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Speaker 3: This idea that finding their purpose causes them to be
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Speaker 3: depressed and anxious and feel like they can't actually connect
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Speaker 3: to what the role in the world is. And so
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Speaker 3: in my mind I kind of said, well, how does
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Speaker 3: this paradox work? How can purpose be both the most
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Speaker 3: important and also so anxiety provoking? And this is how
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Speaker 3: I kind of realize we kind of get purpose wrong.
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Speaker 3: We think it's one thing, but it's probably two. What
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Speaker 3: I call big P purpose and little P purpose. The
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Speaker 3: big P purpose is that kind of big, audacious why
3:43
Speaker 3: like how am I going to make a legacy and
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Speaker 3: define myself? And I think that makes people anxious. What
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Speaker 3: I define purpose is little P purpose is more of
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Speaker 3: those process oriented things you do that light you.
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Speaker 2: Up really really interesting. So when we're talking about whether
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Speaker 2: it's big P your little P purpose, is it something
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Speaker 2: that we happen onto and discover. Is it something we build,
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Speaker 2: or is it something that we practice, or some combination
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Speaker 2: of the three.
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Speaker 3: People always ask me, they say how do I find
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Speaker 3: my purpose? And the first thing I kind of say is, well,
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Speaker 3: we don't find your purpose. You build or create it.
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Speaker 3: It's a very active process, but it is true you
4:22
Speaker 3: have to have some idea of what lights you up.
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Speaker 3: I call these purpose anchors, this idea of well, what
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Speaker 3: kind of excites me? What lights me up? In the book,
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Speaker 3: I talk about all sorts of ways and exercises we
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Speaker 3: can do that are very very simple, that help us
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Speaker 3: figure out what our purpose anchors are. But the easy
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Speaker 3: thing is finding what lights you up. Then the hard
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Speaker 3: thing is you have to build a life of purpose
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Speaker 3: around those anchors, which means you have to take action
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Speaker 3: and do something. I'll give you a perfect example. One
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Speaker 3: of the ways you can find a purpose anchor is
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Speaker 3: to ask yourself. If I found out I was dying tomorrow,
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Speaker 3: what would I regret that I never had the energy, courage,
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Speaker 3: your time to do? And I asked myself this ten
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Speaker 3: years ago and the answer was so utterly clear, I'd
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Speaker 3: regret never Traditionally publishing a book that was my purpose anchor,
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Speaker 3: and that was really easy. I wanted to write a
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Speaker 3: book and I wanted a traditional publisher. The hard part
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Speaker 3: was then I had to build a life of purpose
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Speaker 3: around that. I had to go figure out what I
5:13
Speaker 3: wanted to write about. I had to build a platform,
5:15
Speaker 3: I had to find an agent. I had to eventually
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Speaker 3: write a book proposal. All very hard work, but very purposeful,
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Speaker 3: exciting work. And so the idea is, figure out what
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Speaker 3: lights you up. Can be big, can be small, It
5:29
Speaker 3: can be one thing, can be one hundred different things,
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Speaker 3: can last a week or can last a lifetime. None
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Speaker 3: of that matters, but then start building a life of
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Speaker 3: purpose around it.
5:37
Speaker 2: And one of the things you've written about is achievement pressure.
5:43
Speaker 2: What is the ways that people can have less purpose
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Speaker 2: anxiety and live a more purposeful, stress free life.
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Speaker 3: So here's the thing. I often talk about the difference
5:55
Speaker 3: between meaning and purpose, and a lot of people think
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Speaker 3: they're the same thing, but in my mind are very different.
6:00
Speaker 3: Let me explain, Meaning is about the past, and it's
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Speaker 3: all about your thoughts. So meaning as the stories we
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Speaker 3: tell ourselves about ourselves and about our past. Now, happy
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Speaker 3: people tend to see their past, see difficulties, see trauma,
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Speaker 3: realize that they were enough, and because they were enough,
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Speaker 3: they got over all their difficulties to be where they
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Speaker 3: are today. So it's a heroic story, and that sense
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Speaker 3: of meaning is you come through that, you say I
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Speaker 3: am enough now. Unhappy people have more of a trauma story.
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Speaker 3: They go back, they look at their traumas and their problems.
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Speaker 3: They feel like they were thwarted, like they were never
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Speaker 3: enough and that's why they're where they are today. People
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Speaker 3: who have meaning problems often feel like instead of going
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Speaker 3: back and dealing with their past and learning better stories
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Speaker 3: to tell about themselves, instead they think they can jump
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Speaker 3: to the present in future, find a sense of purpose
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Speaker 3: and that's going to quench their meaning problem. They think
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Speaker 3: they can. It's their way to feeling enough inside. And
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Speaker 3: so what you'll find is people who feel bad about
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Speaker 3: things that happened in the past, and instead of dealing
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Speaker 3: with those they achieve more and more and more. But
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Speaker 3: the problem is they achieve the first thing and they
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Speaker 3: think it's gonna make them happy, but it doesn't fill
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Speaker 3: that hole from their past, so they then double down
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Speaker 3: and try to achieve more and more. I call it
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Speaker 3: the achievement treadmill. We have so many great examples of
7:20
Speaker 3: that in pop culture. Elon Musk is a perfect one.
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Speaker 3: Do you know about Elon Musk? His childhood was hard,
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Speaker 3: He was kind of abused by his father. He was
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Speaker 3: beat up by all the other school kids. I believe
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Speaker 3: from the outside, Elon Musk probably doesn't have the greatest
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Speaker 3: sense of meaning. He sees trauma in his past, and
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Speaker 3: instead of dealing with that, he figures, if I just
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Speaker 3: make a trillion dollars, or if I just travel to Mars,
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Speaker 3: if I just do these things, I'm gonna be happy.
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Speaker 3: But anyone looking at the outside looks at Elon Musk
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Speaker 3: and says, boy, that guy doesn't look happy. Like most
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Speaker 3: of the people work with him end up not liking him.
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Speaker 3: He feels like someone's always screwing him. He feels like,
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Speaker 3: you know, you start looking at this guy who has
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Speaker 3: everything in all the sense of purpose a guy could
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Speaker 3: in the world, and he looks unhappy. It's a difference
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Speaker 3: between meaning and purpose. If you want to get off
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Speaker 3: that achievement treadmill, you have to have a better sense
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Speaker 3: of meaning. It's about dealing with your past.
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Speaker 2: So you bring up some really interesting issues, whether it's
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Speaker 2: related to someone like Musk or not. How often are
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Speaker 2: people confusing purpose with things like status, public recognition, productivity, career?
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Speaker 2: Elon sounds like he's the case study for what you
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Speaker 2: just argued.
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Speaker 3: So here's the big question. All of those things can
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Speaker 3: be good or bad. And so the question is are
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Speaker 3: they fulfilling a sense of little P purpose or fulfilling
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Speaker 3: a sense of big P purpose. And let me tell you,
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Speaker 3: I always feel big P purposes is bad. It's always negative.
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Speaker 3: So let me explain why. So big P purposes goal oriented.
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Speaker 3: And because we live in America, you know, if you
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Speaker 3: can dream it, you can build it. It's often big
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Speaker 3: audacious goals that are very difficult to achieve and they're
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Speaker 3: usually all or nothing, like I want to travel to
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Speaker 3: Mars or I want to be a trillionaire is all
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Speaker 3: or nothing and it's really hard to achieve. And every
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Speaker 3: million people who go for those goals, very few are
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Speaker 3: ever going to achieve it. So you're setting yourself up
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Speaker 3: for purpose anxiety. So if your career or your status
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Speaker 3: or the things you're doing every day is about big
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Speaker 3: PA purpose and it's very goal oriented, you're generally going
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Speaker 3: to find yourself unhappy. Because you're either going to fail,
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Speaker 3: which is going to feel bad, or you're going to
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Speaker 3: reach that goal, but the minute you reach it, because
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Speaker 3: you're not feeling enough inside, you're either going to double
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Speaker 3: down and reach for a higher goal, or you're going
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Speaker 3: to be completely afraid you're going to lose it. Loss
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Speaker 3: of version, right, loss of version where doubly is afraid
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Speaker 3: of losing what we've gained than not gaining it in
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Speaker 3: the first place. So you're setting yourself up for unhappiness.
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Speaker 3: Let's change that around and say that you're more of
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Speaker 3: a little pea purpose and you enjoy the process, not
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Speaker 3: the goal, but the process of your career or the
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Speaker 3: process of having status. You like going in every day
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Speaker 3: of the office. You love seeing the people you love.
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Speaker 3: You're working on complex, intricate problems. You get so excited
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Speaker 3: by them you forget the time of day and miss lunch.
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Speaker 3: That's flow, that's little p purpose, that's enjoying the process.
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Speaker 3: Most of these people, you know, if they don't end
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Speaker 3: up getting that promotion, if they don't end up being successful,
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Speaker 3: they'll still tell you it was really exciting along the way.
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Speaker 3: So any of those things can be good or bad.
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Speaker 3: It really depends on if they're a version of little
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Speaker 3: P purpose for you or a version of big P purpose.
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Speaker 2: So you're hinting at something that I'm fascinated by, which
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Speaker 2: is the concept of legacy, big P purpose, so to speak?
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Speaker 2: Is this overrated? Do people misunderstand a complishment or reputation
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Speaker 2: or influence? Like? What is the role of legacy in
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Speaker 2: seeking a purpose?
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Speaker 3: So here's the thing. If you're interested in big P purpose,
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Speaker 3: often your goal is to do something big, audacious and
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Speaker 3: leave a legacy. And as we've kind of outlined, usually
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Speaker 3: those things are incredibly hard to achieve, and you're probably
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Speaker 3: going to be anxious. You might not enjoy the process
11:05
Speaker 3: getting there, so you might burn out, you might quit,
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Speaker 3: And if you're lucky and happen to get there, you
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Speaker 3: may want to push past it and have even more. Again,
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Speaker 3: I think a lot of that is a recipe for failure,
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Speaker 3: and we see this in lots of hyperachievers. But let's
11:20
Speaker 3: turn that around. Let's say you're interested in little pea
11:23
Speaker 3: purpose and you just do things you love. I actually
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Speaker 3: argue that will leave a bigger legacy and change the
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Speaker 3: world more. And it has something to do with generational trauma.
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Speaker 3: We all know what generational trauma is. Right. Our parents
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Speaker 3: and their parents struggle with traumas, they might not do
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Speaker 3: the best job of it, and they hand that trauma
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Speaker 3: down to us, and we face similar traumas. My grandmother
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Speaker 3: was an orphan during the Depression. She had issues with
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Speaker 3: money and food. She passed that on to my mom, who,
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Speaker 3: even though was in a high paying job, had stressors
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Speaker 3: about money and was always afraid to spend. And then
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Speaker 3: my dad died prematurely, and she was afraid on spending
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Speaker 3: on anything. She was dreaming that when we went to college,
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Speaker 3: her three kids, she was going to sell the house
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Speaker 3: and live an apartment. It was very traumatic. She passed
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Speaker 3: that down to me. I have trouble spending to this
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Speaker 3: day because of the trauma that's been passed down. That's
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Speaker 3: generational trauma. What we often don't talk about is generational growth.
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Speaker 3: Generational growth is the exact opposite. It's the purposeful things
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Speaker 3: we hand down that end up being our legacy. I'd
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Speaker 3: love to talk about my maternal grandfather, who was an
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Speaker 3: accountant and loved math. Because he loved math, my mom
12:30
Speaker 3: learned that from him. It was generational growth. She decided
12:33
Speaker 3: she loved math. She became an account When I was
12:35
Speaker 3: a little kid, I had a learning disability. Because my
12:38
Speaker 3: mom loved math and she modeled that behavior. I ended
12:41
Speaker 3: up loving math, and I was really good at math.
12:43
Speaker 3: So even though I was bad at reading, I was
12:44
Speaker 3: good at math. It gave me the confidence to move forward.
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Speaker 3: I eventually became a doctor, used those mathematical skills, and
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Speaker 3: I was able to help hundreds and thousands of people
12:54
Speaker 3: with my medical skills. That's generational growth. That is my
12:57
Speaker 3: maternal great grandfather, who I never met, as he died
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Speaker 3: before I was born. His sense of little purpose and
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Speaker 3: his love of math was passed through the generations to me.
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Speaker 3: And every time I walk in the room and helped
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Speaker 3: someone in the hospital or in the office, his legacy
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Speaker 3: was being felt fifty seventy five years later and hundreds
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Speaker 3: of miles away. Little pea purpose actually leads to tons
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Speaker 3: of legacy. And it's a lot more attainable than let's say,
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Speaker 3: traveling to Mars or making it to be a trillionaire.
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Speaker 2: So someone who's achieved professional or financial success, how should
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Speaker 2: they think about purpose after they've hit those goals.
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Speaker 3: Well, again, we always talk about this idea that money
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Speaker 3: is a tool, not a goal. You now have tons
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Speaker 3: of this tool, Let's use it to live a life
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Speaker 3: of purpose. What do you dig, what excites you? How
13:48
Speaker 3: can you use money to do more of that, to
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Speaker 3: be more involved in that, or to offload things you
13:54
Speaker 3: don't want to do so you have more time to
13:55
Speaker 3: do the things you do want to do. Now, I
13:57
Speaker 3: want to tell people, just because you're not wealthy doesn't
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Speaker 3: mean you can't use other tools to live a life
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Speaker 3: of purpose. Money is one really good tool that helps
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Speaker 3: you live a life purpose by freeing up your time
14:08
Speaker 3: and giving you some fuel to pay for things that
14:10
Speaker 3: help you live that life of purpose. But there are
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Speaker 3: tons of ways to live a life of purpose without
14:14
Speaker 3: having tons of money too, So you need to keep
14:17
Speaker 3: it in perspective. But if you are wealthy, if you're retired,
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Speaker 3: you're like, I've won the lottery, I got the jackpot.
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Speaker 3: Let's use that money to do things that are deeply
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Speaker 3: important to.
14:26
Speaker 2: You, really really interesting. So we're down to our last
14:31
Speaker 2: question or two. I want to address your work as
14:35
Speaker 2: a medical doctor in hospice. You've spent a lot of
14:40
Speaker 2: time and spoke with a lot of people near the
14:42
Speaker 2: end of their lives. How do their ideas of purpose
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Speaker 2: differ from younger ambitious people, how they think about it?
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Speaker 2: And what sort of regrets do people have at the
14:55
Speaker 2: end of their life that might inform us how we
14:59
Speaker 2: should think about me and purpose. So everyone regret.
15:02
Speaker 3: Everyone's regrets are slightly different, but there's always some version
15:07
Speaker 3: of this. And before I even give you the line
15:09
Speaker 3: that I hear so often, let me remind you that
15:12
Speaker 3: almost no one has ever told me on their deathbed
15:14
Speaker 3: they wish their net worth made it to two million
15:16
Speaker 3: and it only made it to one million.
15:17
Speaker 2: No one says that.
15:18
Speaker 3: I've never heard someone say I wish I worked more
15:21
Speaker 3: nights and weekends. You just never hear that. So what
15:24
Speaker 3: you tend to hear people say is I really regret
15:27
Speaker 3: that I never had the energy, courage, or time too
15:30
Speaker 3: And then fill in the blank. And the reason it's
15:32
Speaker 3: fill in the blank is because for every person that's different.
15:35
Speaker 3: You know, when I ask myself that question, it was
15:37
Speaker 3: that I didn't traditionally publish a book. Another person may
15:39
Speaker 3: say that they never traveled to Africa. Another person may say,
15:43
Speaker 3: you know what, when I was young, I wanted to
15:45
Speaker 3: be an NBA basketball player and I never made it.
15:47
Speaker 3: There I wasn't good enough. But I could have worked
15:52
Speaker 3: as a coach on the team. I could have been
15:53
Speaker 3: part of a fan club. I could have done so
15:56
Speaker 3: many other things to bring this goodness into my life.
15:59
Speaker 3: And I did. And so who are the people you
16:02
Speaker 3: didn't connect? You because you were too afraid? What are
16:04
Speaker 3: the things you didn't try because you always thought there
16:06
Speaker 3: was more time, or that you didn't have enough money.
16:09
Speaker 3: But there's some excuse that you didn't do this thing
16:12
Speaker 3: you really wanted to do. The young people can learn
16:15
Speaker 3: from this. We can take that regret of the dying
16:18
Speaker 3: and we can turn that into a purpose anchor. If
16:21
Speaker 3: I can think about what it would be like to
16:23
Speaker 3: be on my deskbed and figure, well, what would I
16:26
Speaker 3: have regrets about? I can then turn that into a
16:28
Speaker 3: purpose anchor and say, well, I'm not dying. Why don't
16:31
Speaker 3: I start building a life of purpose around that? And
16:34
Speaker 3: that's kind of the key, And that's what I think
16:35
Speaker 3: the dying can really teach to all of us younger people.
16:38
Speaker 3: And that's why for me to connect these disparate parts
16:41
Speaker 3: of my life as being a hospice doctor with being
16:44
Speaker 3: someone who talks about personal finance, this is where I
16:47
Speaker 3: saw them intersect.
16:49
Speaker 2: Last question and apologies of my pattern recognition machine is
16:56
Speaker 2: kicking into action. I'm hearing ollvious regrets are not things
17:02
Speaker 2: that people did, but things that people did not do.
17:08
Speaker 2: Is that do we regret the things like I've never
17:12
Speaker 2: heard anyone say, gee, I never should have bought that
17:14
Speaker 2: sports car, I never should have bought that convertible, or
17:17
Speaker 2: I never should have taken the family back to Italy,
17:20
Speaker 2: to the old country. It's never the things you do.
17:23
Speaker 2: It sounds like it's the things that you didn't do.
17:28
Speaker 3: So what you're talking about is the difference between the
17:30
Speaker 3: two different types of regrets. There are action regrets and
17:34
Speaker 3: in action regrets. Action regrets are man, you know, I
17:38
Speaker 3: really wish I got better sleep last night because then
17:40
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have gotten to that accident today and hurt
17:43
Speaker 3: that person, right, That is an action regret, and in
17:46
Speaker 3: action regret is Wow, I'm now sitting on my deathbed
17:49
Speaker 3: and I really had this dream that I never pursued.
17:52
Speaker 2: But here's the thing.
17:54
Speaker 3: Action regrets are often in action regrets in hiding. So
17:59
Speaker 3: an action regret, I wish I really slept better and
18:02
Speaker 3: didn't get into that car accident and hurt that person.
18:04
Speaker 3: But what you're really saying is, well, I can't change
18:06
Speaker 3: the past, but I really wish I did something about that.
18:09
Speaker 3: I really wish I educated other people to what I
18:12
Speaker 3: did wrong. I really wish I went and talked to
18:14
Speaker 3: that family and apologized to them and helped them out
18:17
Speaker 3: in some way to make up for what I did.
18:20
Speaker 3: Like a lot of times, action regret actually is in
18:23
Speaker 3: action regret in hiding. So yes, it's that we didn't
18:28
Speaker 3: have the courage to take action to do those things
18:30
Speaker 3: that were deeply important to us. But let me add
18:32
Speaker 3: one more caveat. I had a patient who was dying
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Speaker 3: in his late forties of leukemia, and when he was
18:41
Speaker 3: in his twenties, he did something amazing. He was rising
18:44
Speaker 3: the corporate ladder in his early twenties and he decided
18:48
Speaker 3: to take a year off and try to climb Mount Everest.
18:51
Speaker 3: And everyone thought he was crazy, and they're like, you're
18:53
Speaker 3: in your prime money making years. Why are you taking
18:56
Speaker 3: a year off. You're going to set yourself back.
18:58
Speaker 2: He did it anyway.
18:59
Speaker 3: He trained for six months and then he went and
19:01
Speaker 3: started climbing Mount Everest. The weather changed. He never made
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Speaker 3: it much past Spase Camp and then he went back
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Speaker 3: to work. And then I met him in his forties
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Speaker 3: when he was dying, and all he wanted to talk
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Speaker 3: about was that trip to Everest and what it felt
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Speaker 3: like to be on the mountain. Here's the magic. You
19:17
Speaker 3: don't even need to succeed. All you have to do
19:21
Speaker 3: is have the courage to try. That's what people don't get.
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Speaker 3: You will regret not whether you succeeded or failed. You
19:27
Speaker 3: will regret that you didn't give it your best.
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Speaker 2: Huh. Really fascinating stuff, Jordan. So to sum up, people
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Speaker 2: who want to live a more satisfying, productive, meaningful life
19:43
Speaker 2: should worry less about big, hairy, audacious goals and be
19:49
Speaker 2: focused more on the little things that bring you joy.
19:54
Speaker 2: The processes and daily activities you can do that build meeting,
20:00
Speaker 2: build purpose, and ultimately lead to using your money in
20:04
Speaker 2: a more satisfying way. I'm Barry Richtolts. You're listening to
20:09
Speaker 2: Bloomberg's at the Money