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Climate Solutions for the Ocean: How Restoring Kelp Forests Could Change the Future of the Seas · How To Protect The Ocean

• 0:00
  Kelp forests are disappearing fast, and with them we lose one
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  of the most powerful life support systems the ocean has to offer.
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  They shape entire ecosystems, feed communities, buffer, coastlines,
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  and even help stabilize our climate.
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  Yet most people barely think about them unless they see
• 0:17
  seaweed washed up on the beach.
• 0:19
  Today we changed that.
• 0:21
  Scott Icic is here from Ocean Wise.
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  He joins us on the show to reveal how sea forestation is becoming one
• 0:27
  of the most exciting and overlooked solutions for ocean health, climate
• 0:31
  resilience, and community wellbeing.
• 0:33
  We're gonna talk to Scott on this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
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  Let's start the show.
• 0:42
  Hey everybody.
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  Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
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  I'm your host, and/or Lewin, Marine biologist and science communicator
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  here to tell you what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for
• 0:51
  the ocean, and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action.
• 0:55
  And today we're gonna be talking about seaweed, not sea grass, which
• 0:59
  is much different than the podcast I'm trying to start called the Seagrass
• 1:02
  Effect, which you can go to speak up for blue.com/seagrass to help
• 1:05
  crowdfund that sucker to get it going.
• 1:08
  And let's talk about seagrass.
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  Today we're gonna be talking about a seaweed, a particularly important
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  seaweed called kelp and the kelp forest that they create and how they
• 1:17
  help shape biodiversity, how they help shape ecosystems, how they sequester
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  carbon, how they are a climate change mechanism to bring climate change down.
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  This is the be all known all of habitats that we don't talk about.
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  And why don't we talk about 'em maybe is because they're not as sexy in terms of.
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  Coral reefs, right?
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  They don't have these brilliant colors.
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  They're green.
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  Sometimes a little orangey, sometimes a little different types of green,
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  sometimes a little brown, but they are in these beautiful habitats.
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  Maybe not clear water.
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  Maybe that's why they're not sexy, but they have all of these animals that are
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  around it from invertebrates, like sea urchins and starfish to Marine mammal.
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  Like sea otters and sea lions and seals to fish of all different types
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  and colors that are just interesting looking, unique, looking, weird looking.
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  Some are bright orange, some are gray, some are brown.
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  Some are just beautiful, absolute beautiful, and they're found not
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  just on the BC's coast, which we're gonna be focusing today.
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  They're found all over the world and they're such an important habitat
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  that we just don't talk about.
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  But today.
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  We are here to talk about it because we're here to talk to Scott Boic,
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  who's the director of the Sea Forestation Program at Ocean Wise.
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  Now, ocean Wise is this Canadian organization that is an international
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  organization, but it's based in Vancouver.
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  It covers a lot of different things.
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  It covers climate change, it covers whales, it covers
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  ocean pollution and plastics.
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  It covers overfishing.
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  It covers so many things within those larger programs that have become something
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  of interest for Canadians and something of interest for the international community.
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  They collaborate internationally with a number of different countries
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  and researchers all over the world and they play a big role.
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  And in Canada it's important 'cause I'm obviously, I'm Canadian, but it's
• 3:01
  important because there aren't a lot of organizations that are based in
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  Canada that are focused on the ocean.
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  Ocean Wise is one of them, and I think it's a huge part of Canada.
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  It's a huge part of making Canadians leaders in ocean conservation, and I
• 3:18
  really appreciate Ocean Wise, I've wanted to have somebody from Ocean Wise on
• 3:21
  for my entire time doing this podcast, being able to have Scott on the podcast.
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  Is such an honor and to be able to hopefully bring on more people from
• 3:30
  Ocean Wise to be able to talk about the different programs is great.
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  So here we're talking about sea forestation, how they're restoring kelp
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  forests to help protect 'em and help bolster kelp forests within the ocean.
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  Especially along the BC coast.
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  We're gonna talk about, you know, what it's like to grow them, how
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  fast to grow them, how long they have to grow in sort of like a nursery
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  area, like in a building compared to when they had to bring them out.
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  Spoiler, it's not that long.
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  There's a lot of different things that we talk about in this place and
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  even the barriers to having a big scaled sea forestation around the
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  world like that would be amazing.
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  And we talk about those barriers, funding so forth.
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  But it's great.
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  So I want you to listen.
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  I want you to let me know what you think.
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  So here is the interview with Scott Boychuk.
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  He's the director of Sea four Station at Ocean Wise.
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  Enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you after.
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  Hey Scott, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
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  Are you ready to talk about Ocean Wise Kelp and Sea Forest Station?
• 4:24
  Hey And/or, thanks for having me on the pod.
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  I'm excited to chat, uh, a little bit about Sea Forestation with you today.
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  Fantastic.
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  This is gonna be a lot of fun.
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  I, this is a bit of a bucket list for me.
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  'cause Ocean Wise, as a Canadian, ocean wise has been such an important
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  part of Marine conservation in general for, for decades for me.
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  And so I've been watching Ocean Wise for a while.
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  I've been watching the programs develop, uh, especially like, you know, the, the,
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  just, even just the seafood program, the sustainable seafood program for
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  Ocean Wise develop over years after year after year and become such a, a
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  mainstay for, uh, Canadian restaurants and grocery stores And so forth.
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  And now, you know, ocean Wise has become such, this huge conservation organization
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  and a lot of different programs, especially the Sea Forestation program,
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  which we're gonna be talking about.
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  'cause I'm very excited.
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  I feel like it doesn't get talked about enough.
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  So I'm really glad we're gonna be able to talk about it today.
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  We're also gonna talk about Ocean Wise, 'cause 'cause I want, I have some
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  questions that I want to get to know.
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  And of course, I, I wanna get to know you Scott, and, you know, I want our audience
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  to know who you are and all that stuff.
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  So let's get into that.
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  First, uh, Scott, why don't you just let us know who you are and what you do.
• 5:26
  Yeah, sure.
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  Thanks a lot.
• 5:27
  Uh, well, um, my name is Scott Ick and I'm the director of
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  Sea Forestation at Ocean Wise.
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  Um, I've been in this role for about three years and have a background
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  in education and international development and business.
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  Um, I lead, uh, ocean Wise's, sea Forestation initiatives, uh, in
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  British Columbia and in Chile.
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  And, uh, yeah, excited to dig into all things kelp.
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  Uh, it's an exciting place to be right now.
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  And, uh, and thanks for your, uh, support and interest, uh, in Ocean
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  Wise, uh, over, over the last few years.
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  Absolutely.
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  Now, you've had, uh, a, a pretty wide array of background, but
• 6:03
  very much environmental focused.
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  What led you to that, especially someone with an MBA?
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  You know, like the, we, a lot of times when you get an MBA you go into the
• 6:12
  person is generally going into some sort of business, uh, 'cause you know, it's
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  a, it's a, it's a master's in business.
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  What sort of steered you towards that, that environmental
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  focus throughout your career?
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  Mm-hmm.
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  Yeah.
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  Well, I mean, not to go on too, uh, long a winded, uh, biography here.
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  But, um, it, it really started for me when I was 19.
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  I, I spent a year in Indonesia, um, in Sumatra, in Northern Sumatra.
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  And, uh, I just remember my first time driving past some of the,
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  honestly, the clear cut rainforest.
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  And I found out that that was being replanted with, uh, with palm trees
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  for palm oil and just growing, growing up in Edmonton, um, kind
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  of a, a young kid understanding what the impacts of globalization,
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  uh, were on, on, on the planet.
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  Uh, really kind of opened my eyes to some of the more global environmental
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  issues that, that we were facing.
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  Um, you know, that was a, that was around 2004, 2005.
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  Um, you know, I feel like.
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  Uh, I guess not so much a special time, but a unique time, at least
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  in my own personal journey for the environmental movement And mm-hmm.
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  Uh, that just got me kind of on this, on this path.
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  I had always been interested in environmental issues and spent a
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  lot of time outdoors with my family growing up and had that connection
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  to, uh, the land and the ocean.
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  But, um, that was, uh, that year was really a moment for me that I decided
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  to dedicate more of my, my time and, and really my career towards those issues.
• 7:39
  That's interesting too.
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  And, and you know, leading up to ocean wise, you know, which is very
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  obviously focused on, on the ocean.
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  You know, you talk about, you know, you know, going to Indonesia, an
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  island, an island nation, you're seeing a lot of stuff on land.
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  Did you have a, an interest or did you have an idea of the issues that
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  were going on in the ocean, especially around, um, coastal habitats?
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  You know, things like kelp, obviously not in Indonesia, but things like kelp,
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  seagrasses, coral reefs, you know, salt wa, salt water, salt marshes And so forth,
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  and mudflats, uh, a lot of different coastal habitats that are around.
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  But you know, the, the, um, the problems that they were having.
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  Had you had a lot of knowledge of that before, uh, coming to Ocean Wise?
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  Um, before Ocean Wise, yes.
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  But I can say at 19, not so much as I said, you know, pretty much when
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  I locked, growing up in Edmonton.
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  Right.
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  You know, we, we got to the Pacific a few times, uh, growing up.
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  But, uh, I think, you know, through, over the course of my twenties and, uh,
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  and thirties and certainly going back to school, um, for international development,
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  you know, saw the importance of the ocean.
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  Not only its intrinsic value, um, but also kind of how many people,
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  hundreds of millions of people, and really all of us depend on a healthy
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  ocean for our day-to-day wellbeing.
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  Um, So it was, uh, you know, I, I don't have a degree in, in Marine biology.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  And I, I agree that sometimes the MBA is, uh, is unique in, in the nonprofit kind
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  of environmental sector, but, uh, we can touch on that a little bit, um, more, but
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  certainly I think the ocean is kind of having a moment right now more mm-hmm.
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  More broadly in the public, um, in the public eye.
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  And people are.
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  Uh, really more people are really understanding the importance
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  of, uh, of ocean health.
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  And I think it's so important that people with MPAs, people with, you know,
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  various business backgrounds or various backgrounds understand, you know, things
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  that are happening to the environment.
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  You know, the, I think this is a very important aspect to ocean
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  conservation in general, because, you know, it's not just scientists.
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  Like, I always tell people, I focus that a lot in this podcast where it's not
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  just scientists that need to be involved in the ocean, it's, it's everybody.
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  We all live part of it, we all benefit from it, but we all part are like,
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  are part of the consequences of what we're seeing in, in the ocean.
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  And to be able to have people who are at different stages in life,
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  different cultures, different, you know, professional backgrounds
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  And so forth, have that ability to open up and just be like, yes, we
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  need to do better and recognize it.
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  Uh, and, and do be in positions like, you know, like your position as director, you
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  almost need to have an MBA or it benefits you to have an MBA so that you can manage
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  these, these sophisticated problems.
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  Right.
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  And, and I Do you find.
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  In your experience and the people that you've, uh, interacted with at the
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  same level, like within an MBA program?
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  'cause I believe you did the MBA, the executive MBA program at Queens, correct?
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  That's correct, yeah.
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  Which you get a lot of people from various backgrounds who are already working.
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  You know, this is something that's done on top of it.
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  It's, it's very, uh, I had a couple friends who have gone through it.
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  It's, it's an intense program.
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  It's a great program.
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  Obviously Queens University is one of the best.
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  Uh, and it's, it's, but you're getting people from all over the place.
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  Did you have that mindset when you went into like your, your MBA of like, okay,
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  I'm gonna go into the nonprofit sector And then to speak to people, or, or have,
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  or were you influenced by people who were also within your cohort to do the same?
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  Hmm.
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  Yeah.
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  Interesting.
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  Well, I was in the nonprofit sector before joining or before going
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  through the executive MBA as well.
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  I was, uh, in Ottawa for five years with the United Nations Association in Canada.
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  Right.
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  Um, and I think, you know, part of the motivation for going into the MBA was
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  just to kind of round out a skillset.
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  Um, you know, in, in nonprofits and certainly larger nonprofits, like Ocean
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  Wise, we operate, uh, very much like, uh, you know, a business in many ways.
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  We've got big budgets to balance.
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  We have revenue, uh, targets to bring in.
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  There's, uh, there's milestones and project management activities,
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  uh, that must be kind of delivered on time and on budget.
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  So those types of skills are very transferable from the MBA to the nonprofit
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  sector and organizations like Ocean Wise.
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  And, but I would also say kind of the main takeaway for me, um, from the
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  Queens program and, uh, showed out to all my wonderful colleagues that,
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  uh, suffered, uh, with me through that, uh, 18 months was really, um,
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  understanding how to develop and, um, and sustain high performing teams.
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  It was really around team teamwork and leadership, um, and understanding that.
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  Uh, you know, how to fit the pieces of the puzzle together to achieve a common goal.
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  And that, that type of a mindset, I think is transferable, um,
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  in, in any organization and in many aspects of your life.
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  Um, and I think I, I've tried to do what I can to bring some of those lessons
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  and, uh, and learnings, uh, to Ocean Wise and to the Sea Forest Station team.
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  Fantastic.
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  Can you just kind of give people an idea if they haven't heard of, of Ocean Wise
• 12:45
  before, what Ocean Wise is, And then after that, can you just kind of, um, tell us
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  what attracted, I mean, we, I, I bet you, I can tell you what attracted, but let
• 12:55
  let us know what, what personally, what attracted you to work, uh, for Ocean Wise.
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  Um, well, ocean Wise is a global conservation organization based
• 13:05
  in Vancouver, British Columbia.
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  Um, our mission is to build a global community that takes meaningful action
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  to protect and restore the ocean, uh, in tackling plastic pollution
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  over fishing and climate change, uh, through research, education, uh,
• 13:21
  innovation and direct conservation, uh, to ensure healthy Marine ecosystems
• 13:25
  and, and thriving, uh, communities.
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  And we're doing a lot of great work.
• 13:29
  I'd encourage people to, uh, pop by the website or follow us
• 13:32
  on social media to learn more.
• 13:34
  You can sign up to the newsletter.
• 13:35
  We've got a great, uh, external communications team that's, uh,
• 13:38
  providing, uh, fun and interesting and important updates about our
• 13:42
  work on, on a regular basis.
• 13:44
  And certainly we are looking for more ocean supporters to, to follow the
• 13:48
  movement and get involved, uh, with Ocean Wise in a variety of different ways.
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  Uh, you know, I was, this is, uh, my sixth year actually with Ocean Wise.
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  So I've been here for, uh, for some time and, you know, it was just a wonderful
• 14:01
  opportunity to get into a new arena.
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  I did not, as I mentioned, I didn't have a Marine biology background,
• 14:09
  but from a, from a climate and environmental perspective, I, I clearly
• 14:13
  understood how important the ocean was.
• 14:15
  And I, and I, I guess if I wanna apply perhaps some of the, uh, some of the
• 14:21
  skills or lessons I learned in the NBA, I thought it was kind of a, a rising stock.
• 14:25
  You know, I thought it was a good bet, you know, to get into the ocean game.
• 14:28
  There would be lots of work, lots of development.
• 14:31
  I mean, the ocean.
• 14:32
  Uh, the ocean has received a really, a disproportionately small amount of
• 14:38
  funding in the environmental movement.
• 14:40
  And yeah, and even as a subset of that kelp has even been
• 14:44
  more largely overlooked.
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  Um, but yeah, uh, you know, certainly the opportunity within Ocean Wise, um,
• 14:52
  the opportunity to move to Vancouver and, and be actually a little bit closer
• 14:55
  to home with my family in Alberta, were important reasons, but, um, really just an
• 15:00
  exciting opportunity to get more involved with, uh, with Ocean conservation.
• 15:04
  Well, it's fantastic because, you know, one thing I, I know in.
• 15:08
  In Canadas, there aren't many organizations that are
• 15:11
  strictly dedicated to the ocean.
• 15:14
  There are a lot in the us unfortunately there aren't as many here.
• 15:17
  Mm-hmm.
• 15:17
  And Ocean Wise is one of those few that really stand up for the ocean, not
• 15:22
  only from an advocacy level, but from a science level, from a conservation
• 15:27
  level, from a community level.
• 15:29
  You seen the, the organization seems to hit at every, you know, from, from, uh,
• 15:34
  the ground up essentially, you know, from, from politics off the top to ground
• 15:38
  level to community and, And so forth.
• 15:40
  It's, it's very grassroots at the same time.
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  And I, that, that's one of the things that I really admire about it.
• 15:45
  Uh, and, and I just, I just love that fact now.
• 15:48
  One of the programs, it has many, is like, so there's, there's like
• 15:51
  overarching, you know, sort of topics like, like climate change, ocean
• 15:55
  pollution and plastics overfishing that, you know, whales is, is a huge thing.
• 15:59
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:00
  Now, under the climate change program, there's the sea forest station program,
• 16:04
  which is, is what you're the director of.
• 16:06
  And we're here again, we're gonna focus the rest of the conversation on this
• 16:09
  because it's, it's such an important aspect because I don't think a lot of
• 16:14
  people really understand how important coastal habitats, especially kelp
• 16:19
  forests are to our environment, are to the climate change, um, you know,
• 16:26
  race, I guess to reduce climate change.
• 16:29
  Can you talk a little bit about the importance of, of kelp and
• 16:33
  just this, the sea, how the sea forestation program came, you know,
• 16:36
  kelp is obviously a big part of it.
• 16:38
  If there's other, you know, habitats that are part of it as well.
• 16:41
  Can you just kind of give us a little bit of a brief description
• 16:43
  before we dive in a little deeper?
• 16:45
  Yeah, sure.
• 16:46
  Well, I mean, there's so much to say about, uh, the importance of kelp.
• 16:50
  Um, and I, I think you're right.
• 16:53
  I mean, lots of people, um, you know, seaweed and kelp are not
• 16:56
  kind of everyday topics for, for, for for many Canadians, you know?
• 17:00
  Mm-hmm.
• 17:00
  Unless perhaps, um, you've got some nori on your plate at the sushi restaurant
• 17:05
  or, you know, something else like that.
• 17:07
  But, you know, and in fact, kind of on more of the more kind of seaweed,
• 17:10
  aquaculture side of things, you know, some of the products, um, and some of the
• 17:14
  components of kelp, you know, primarily alginate is used in, in hundreds of
• 17:18
  everyday kind of consumer products that people might not be aware of.
• 17:21
  So there is this kind of, uh, there is this background of the importance
• 17:25
  of the seaweed industry globally, um, that, uh, uh, that is growing quickly.
• 17:30
  And I think, um, you know, from a. From a land or from a world and kind of
• 17:36
  constrained land resources, you know, uh, um, a commodity perhaps such as seaweed
• 17:41
  that requires no, no land, no fresh water, no fertilizers or additives, you
• 17:46
  know, could play an important role in, in the future of food security and, uh,
• 17:50
  and, and climate, uh, around the world.
• 17:52
  But the Sea Forestation Initiative at, at Ocean Wise is really focused on restoring
• 17:57
  and protecting wild kelp forests.
• 17:59
  Um, we have seen a global decline of around 50% of the world's
• 18:05
  kelp forests, that that hasn't happened evenly around the world.
• 18:08
  There's large kind of temporal and spatial, uh, differences in different
• 18:12
  regions, and there's a variety of different factors for the decline of kelp.
• 18:16
  But, uh, climate change and various ecosystem imbalances are, are two
• 18:21
  of the kind of primary suspects for.
• 18:23
  For most of the declines, um, I would say one example is the Marine heat blob that
• 18:29
  moved up the west coast of California and Washington and, uh, and Oregon and,
• 18:34
  and BC in Alaska in 20 14, 20 15 wiped out about 95% of California's bull kelp,
• 18:41
  uh, which has not, uh, has not recovered.
• 18:44
  And so, you know, those types of losses, um, are really devastating for the
• 18:49
  near shore ocean ecosystems because Kelp provides just so many var, so
• 18:56
  many different ecosystem services from support, um, for fisheries, uh, from
• 19:02
  buffering against coastal erosion, uh, from supporting just a, a wide
• 19:07
  variety of, of Marine, uh, biodiversity.
• 19:11
  Um, and nutrient cycling, not to mention kind of the carbon, uh, sequestration
• 19:16
  and drawdown potential, uh, that kelp and seaweed has in general.
• 19:21
  There's, there's just a, a rich, uh, a rich abundance of ecosystem services
• 19:26
  that kelp forests provide that we, we really need to urgently, uh, protect.
• 19:31
  Yeah, it seems like there's, as you mentioned, there's been this huge boom
• 19:34
  in, you know, putting, you know, kelp in clothes like, or making clothes
• 19:38
  from it, from making yarn from it, And then food as well as, And so there's a
• 19:42
  lot of these different things that are popping up even in the, and and they,
• 19:46
  they wanna do it sustainably, of course.
• 19:47
  And even in the point where, um, you know, forests are redu are,
• 19:52
  are reduced by, by significant amount 'cause of climate change.
• 19:55
  Coastal development, a lot of different things that are, that are happening.
• 19:58
  So the, the, the, the, the system itself is in trouble from losing kelp, um mm-hmm.
• 20:03
  Even with the fact of, you know, sea star wasting disease, you know
• 20:06
  how we realize sea star wasting sea stars of that, of that disease that,
• 20:10
  that were, that succumbed to those diseases were such an important
• 20:13
  part of keeping sea urchins down.
• 20:15
  We didn't realize that at, at the beginning until they were,
• 20:17
  they were lost, lost some more phos, real forest realizing that.
• 20:21
  And, And so it's, it's, there's so many things that are activating
• 20:24
  after it, it makes sense to have this sea, you know, sea forest
• 20:28
  station kind of program to come up.
• 20:31
  So this is, is, is, is this a, um, a, a program where you're
• 20:36
  protecting existing kelp forests or working to protect existing kelp
• 20:41
  forests as well as restoration?
• 20:44
  Or is it more of a restoration project that will sort of boost, you know,
• 20:50
  the, the kelp forest that we see today?
• 20:53
  Yeah, so we are focused, uh, more on the active restoration of kelp forests
• 20:58
  in bc. There, um, there are a lot of, there are some groups who are doing
• 21:01
  some very important mapping, um, and kind of longer term mapping in the
• 21:05
  province, uh, right, to really understand the trends of, of kelp forests in,
• 21:11
  in British Columbia and, and what is happening, uh, on that side of things.
• 21:15
  We started four years ago, um, the Sea Forestation Initiative, and
• 21:20
  right now we have some important projects going on in British Columbia.
• 21:24
  Um, actually just yesterday it was a, it was a long and very wet day in house
• 21:29
  sound, uh, with, with an incredible team.
• 21:32
  Uh, we were out planting some of the green gravel that we.
• 21:35
  Had grown at our kelp nursery at the Pacific Science Enterprise
• 21:39
  Center, uh, in West Vancouver.
• 21:42
  We have, uh, a space there generously, uh, loaned to us from the
• 21:46
  Department of Fisheries and Oceans.
• 21:47
  And this is where we, uh, trial innovative restoration techniques.
• 21:51
  Um, and this was the third year of successfully growing some sugar kelp
• 21:56
  on, on green gravel, which is, uh, UA unique restoration technique.
• 22:01
  Um, I won't go into too much detail now, right?
• 22:03
  Maybe we can focus on it, uh, a little bit later if there's a more specific question.
• 22:08
  But, uh, we were out inhouse sound, uh, uh, yesterday out planting that
• 22:13
  green gravel at the restoration site.
• 22:15
  So, uh, that was a big milestone for us.
• 22:18
  Um, it's a lot of work to get that, uh, to get that project kind of to that point.
• 22:22
  And we were very pleased that the wind cooperated, uh, although not so much,
• 22:26
  uh, the rain and we'll be at that site, uh, three or four times over
• 22:30
  the, in 2026 to monitor the progress.
• 22:33
  Um, and we were delighted to see some of the, the kelp that we had
• 22:37
  planted last year at the site, doing well with reproductive tissue, uh,
• 22:42
  the source on the blades, which was, uh, which was a great win as well.
• 22:46
  And we, we have another, uh, slightly larger project in Barclay Sound in
• 22:51
  partnership with the Sayat First Nation.
• 22:53
  Um, and this is a slightly different approach where we are actually
• 22:57
  trying to, uh, manage the urchin population at an urchin barren.
• 23:02
  So I was glad that you brought that up very much on top of your sea forestation,
• 23:07
  uh, and/or, which is, which is great.
• 23:09
  And we do have an urchin issue in British Columbia.
• 23:13
  Mm-hmm.
• 23:13
  Um, as you mentioned, uh, urchin populations have exploded, um,
• 23:20
  significantly due because of the functional extrication of sea otters in
• 23:24
  British Columbia during the fur trade.
• 23:26
  Uh, you know, most estimates suggest that we lost around 99% of the sea otters and,
• 23:32
  uh, And then the sea star wasting disease, uh, as you mentioned as well, yeah.
• 23:36
  Those two primary predators of the urchins, uh, being abstinence
• 23:40
  have led to really a significant boom in the urchin population.
• 23:44
  And urchin populations will eat through an entire kelp forest And then remain dormant
• 23:52
  or kind of in a zombie state where they are actually, um, starving and they're
• 23:57
  not usually not commercially viable, but they will remain there and, and really
• 24:01
  prevent the kelp forest from recovering.
• 24:03
  And we see huge reductions in biodiversity at those urchin variants.
• 24:08
  I think you me, you, you mentioned a really interesting point because
• 24:11
  here in Canada, we, we on, I know on the east coast and probably on the
• 24:14
  west coast, if you can, if there's a, there's fisheries for urchins, you know?
• 24:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 24:19
  And they, they use their, their row like in, in like, like
• 24:22
  caviar and things like that.
• 24:24
  And you can get some really cool, uh, it.
• 24:26
  They taste interestingly, you know, it's a cool texture and stuff and
• 24:29
  it's a big, it's a big thing here in Canada as well as elsewhere.
• 24:33
  Um, but you mentioned like they're not in, they're not in good condition
• 24:36
  enough to actually fish out.
• 24:37
  So like what do you, what do you do with them?
• 24:41
  You know, in terms of like how, like in a place where you talk where it's just
• 24:44
  like a sea and barren where they're not gonna prevent kelp 'cause you're
• 24:47
  not gonna spend the money 'cause the money and the time and the effort.
• 24:51
  You just mentioned how, you know, you're not in the best conditions all the time.
• 24:54
  You know, you know, the BC coast is beautiful, but it does rain.
• 24:57
  There is wind, it's a coast, it's a Pacific ocean.
• 25:00
  Uh, And so sometimes the conditions aren't perfect.
• 25:02
  So there's a lot of work.
• 25:02
  This is, it's a lot of people hours to put in and, and you know,
• 25:05
  it's, it's, it's a grunt work to, to put all these, these kelp in.
• 25:10
  And so you wanna make sure you have the right spots for it.
• 25:13
  So, you know, like, you know, when you have a, a site where you
• 25:17
  have this barren of, of urchins that are not viable for fisheries.
• 25:24
  Do you just skip over that, that area?
• 25:27
  Do you get rid of the urchins in that area?
• 25:30
  How does that work with, with, when it comes to a complicated site like that?
• 25:34
  Mm-hmm.
• 25:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 25:35
  Yeah, it's a great question.
• 25:37
  And this is, this is, uh, part of, uh, how kind of the regulatory environment
• 25:43
  plays a role in, in this work as well.
• 25:45
  And we've connected with, uh, several experts, um, from the University of
• 25:50
  Auckland and, uh, a few, uh, a few other organizations in California and
• 25:55
  Australia, um, who have done some really interesting work on urchin management.
• 26:00
  And in those jurisdictions, they are permitted, um, uh, through a
• 26:05
  variety of different means, but, uh, sometimes through kind of like
• 26:08
  a scientific permit or a restoration permit to actually go and call.
• 26:13
  Uh, the urchins.
• 26:14
  Mm-hmm.
• 26:14
  And the example from New Zealand is, um, there were kind of four two hectare sites.
• 26:20
  Um, and they were, uh, allowed to call the urchins to get that urchin
• 26:25
  density down from about 20 urchins per square meter to one or two.
• 26:29
  And that's kind of what you need to get, um, the density down to,
• 26:33
  to relieve the grazing pressure of the urchins enough for the kelp to
• 26:37
  have a, a good chance to recover.
• 26:39
  Um, in Canada right now, we're not quite at that.
• 26:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 26:44
  And we're not quite at that stage yet where we're able to go and call.
• 26:47
  And of course that would be a conversation with, with the First Nation and of
• 26:50
  course, and other local community members as well, if that was, uh,
• 26:53
  if that was something they were, um, interested or in, or supportive of.
• 26:58
  Mm-hmm.
• 26:58
  And, you know, we've been developing all the projects that we've.
• 27:02
  We've trialed and are currently doing in British Columbia, uh, with First Nations.
• 27:07
  We don't have, um, any projects that, uh, don't kind of engage the First Nation
• 27:11
  early on and, and throughout the project.
• 27:14
  But, um, interestingly, um, in the New Zealand example, there was
• 27:20
  actually some initial resistance to the culling of the urchins.
• 27:24
  Of course.
• 27:24
  Yeah.
• 27:24
  But they kind of got permission to try it, and the results were very positive.
• 27:30
  The kelp bounced back very quickly, actually.
• 27:33
  As long as you just kind of take that pressure off, you know,
• 27:35
  nature proves its resiliency, uh, usually time and time again.
• 27:40
  And then once the kelp forest was kind of back and they could see this
• 27:44
  really positive outcome, the, the social support and kind of that social
• 27:49
  license, uh, was actually quite a bit stronger to continue and to expand.
• 27:53
  And so I think in this sense, it's a little bit of a short-term
• 27:56
  pain for long-term gain situation.
• 27:59
  Uh, of course we don't want to, we don't wanna call the urchins, but if the
• 28:03
  end outcome is a, is a healthier kelp forest, more balanced ecosystem, and all
• 28:09
  the other benefits that a thriving kelp forest would provide, then I think we
• 28:13
  have to weigh the options in front of us.
• 28:16
  Well, and you'd also see a rebound of those urchin populations within
• 28:19
  that area as the kelp forests grow.
• 28:21
  You know, providing that safe hiding spots in a, in a, in an area where they can
• 28:26
  eat, but eat sustainably and not destroy the regrowth of, of the kelp forest.
• 28:30
  So I think it's, it's a great point that you, that you raise there.
• 28:33
  'cause you know, sometimes when you see these things work and how
• 28:36
  fast they come back, you know, kelp, forest kelp like, grow really
• 28:40
  fast and I don't think, you know.
• 28:42
  Yeah.
• 28:42
  So it's, it's a great, um, it's a great organism to work with because they grow
• 28:46
  so fast, uh, and they grow so tall.
• 28:49
  So it's, it's great to see.
• 28:50
  You mentioned earlier, I, I wanna talk about a little bit of that growth.
• 28:53
  'cause you mentioned earlier there's a, there's an area that DFO lent,
• 28:56
  um, a, a sort of a structure, I guess like a building that you can,
• 28:59
  that you can plant these, uh, how long do you allow the kelp to grow?
• 29:06
  From, I guess seedling or property goal to to, you know, to an out planting
• 29:10
  before you actually go put it out.
• 29:12
  Like, how long does it take to grow?
• 29:14
  Uh, And then, Yeah.
• 29:15
  And when do you to, to a point where you're like, okay, these are ready
• 29:17
  to go out to the, to the ocean Yeah.
• 29:20
  Yeah, it's a great question.
• 29:21
  And, uh, we really enjoy giving, uh, giving the odd tour, um, particularly
• 29:26
  to some of the school groups we've, uh, uh, had at the kelp nursery.
• 29:30
  It's, uh, it's great to show people the process, um, because it really is
• 29:34
  quite novel, uh, for a lot of people.
• 29:36
  And I have to give a lot of credit to, uh, max and Dana on my team to c
• 29:41
  forestation to c forestation specialists who have, uh, really led the work in the
• 29:45
  nursery over the last, uh, two years.
• 29:48
  And I would say almost the problem we have is that we've become
• 29:51
  too good at growing kelp in the nursery and it grew too quickly.
• 29:55
  Um, and once you actually, uh.
• 29:57
  Refine and kind of, uh, nail down the right conditions for
• 30:00
  kelp, it can really take off.
• 30:02
  So we probably would've, uh, we'll probably move up our timelines
• 30:05
  about two weeks for the next batch that we will start, uh, in January.
• 30:10
  Um, but to answer your question, it takes about six weeks.
• 30:13
  So, you know, the very, the overly simplistic, uh, kind of steps of
• 30:17
  growing kelp in the nursery is, uh, will go out, um, to a local population,
• 30:23
  uh, of kelp in, uh, around late September, mid-September, collect
• 30:30
  some of the sous, uh, from the blades.
• 30:32
  And the sous is just where kind of the, the reproductive
• 30:35
  tissue of the kelp, um, is.
• 30:38
  And once we can, once we have that, we'll take it back to the nursery.
• 30:42
  We'll kinda actually sterilize it in iodine so that, uh, we kind of
• 30:47
  remove some of the other organisms.
• 30:48
  We want the kelp to grow, but we don't want everything, uh, else attached
• 30:52
  to the kelp to grow in the lab.
• 30:54
  Okay.
• 30:54
  Um, that we have.
• 30:54
  So we want to try and.
• 30:56
  Mitigate some of the other growth.
• 30:58
  And then actually we layer that source, um, in, in paper towel, uh,
• 31:03
  overnight and put it in the fridge.
• 31:05
  And that kind of stresses the kelp to release the spores.
• 31:09
  Then we come back the next day, put it in a solution, put it in
• 31:12
  some sterilized sea water, and, uh, the water instantly goes cloudy.
• 31:16
  And that's what we call kelp soup.
• 31:18
  And, and we've never, I don't think anyone's ever tasted it.
• 31:22
  Um, but, uh, this is what we put on the, on the cobbles, on the rocks, uh, which
• 31:28
  kind of are really the basis of the green gravel technique that I mentioned earlier.
• 31:32
  Yeah.
• 31:32
  And we'll spray those spor, we'll spray those four fights.
• 31:36
  Uh, the, the Mita fights on the, uh, green on the boulders and essentially.
• 31:42
  There's a lot more to it in terms of the monitoring and the nutrients
• 31:45
  and the lights and the temperature.
• 31:46
  But, uh, after about five or six weeks, we'll start to see just a little
• 31:50
  bit of fuzz on the rocks, and that's the baby kelp that's growing there.
• 31:54
  And then we can go and take those, uh, rocks out to house sound as we did and
• 31:58
  place them at the restoration site.
• 32:00
  So it's, um, it's become quite a science Yeah.
• 32:04
  For us.
• 32:04
  And I, you know, max and I were there, uh, three years ago with the first
• 32:08
  batch, having never grown kelp before.
• 32:10
  But uh, Yeah, when we saw.
• 32:12
  Uh, when we saw the first calp underneath the microscope, uh, in
• 32:16
  the fall of 2023, we were, we were delighted Um, So we've come a long ways.
• 32:21
  Well, even thinking like, I thought they'd have to be a lot bigger.
• 32:24
  I thought they'd have to be, you know, like, say like two
• 32:26
  feet or, or things like that.
• 32:27
  The fact that she's like, no, once they start to, like, you start to see them on
• 32:30
  the rocks, you can just put the rocks.
• 32:32
  That's really cool.
• 32:33
  Mm-hmm.
• 32:34
  To see, And then it'll go, it'll, it'll just grow from that.
• 32:37
  Um, I, I really, I, I think that's amazing.
• 32:40
  I, I didn't think it would be that, that surprised me.
• 32:42
  That got me.
• 32:42
  Yeah.
• 32:43
  I wasn't, I wasn't ready for that.
• 32:44
  Yeah.
• 32:44
  That's pretty cool.
• 32:44
  That was cool.
• 32:45
  Uh, that's awesome.
• 32:47
  Uh, now we mentioned, you know, the, the, the ecosystem services that kelp
• 32:53
  provide, which is, which is great.
• 32:55
  Um, and, but before, as we get into, you know, growing them and you said,
• 33:01
  you know, you're going to monitor them, you know, over the year mm-hmm.
• 33:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 33:04
  As you, as you grow, um, as they grow.
• 33:06
  Uh, why is monitoring such an important, like, standardized monitoring and
• 33:11
  like, there's a, there's a field guide, uh, like, like there's a, there's a
• 33:14
  guidebook, you know, that Ocean Wise and, and Camp Force Alliance put out.
• 33:18
  Why is that important, you know, to use in the field for monitoring and why
• 33:23
  is standardized monitoring important for this, this project or program?
• 33:26
  Yeah.
• 33:27
  Um, also a great question.
• 33:28
  I think that's, uh, and that this is really a focus for us, uh, at
• 33:32
  Ocean Wise in the Sea Forestation initiative, uh, over the next, uh,
• 33:35
  year and two and really beyond, and.
• 33:38
  Even to go back to an earlier comment that you mentioned at, uh, around the
• 33:41
  site and Barkley sound, um, around kind of the biodiversity uplift.
• 33:46
  This is where we're going to be installing an underwater camera, um, to monitor,
• 33:51
  you know, the recovery of the kelp forest and understand better kind of the urchin
• 33:56
  behavior and urchin dynamics as well.
• 33:58
  Yeah.
• 33:59
  Um, and it's gonna have Yeah, a live stream to YouTube so people can know.
• 34:03
  That's what I was waiting for.
• 34:04
  That was my next question.
• 34:05
  That's awesome.
• 34:07
  Yeah.
• 34:07
  And so we're, uh, yeah, we're really excited about that.
• 34:11
  And uh, you know, I think there's, there's certainly a very, uh, rigorous
• 34:14
  science component to that, but also I think the communication and just
• 34:17
  bringing people a little bit closer to our work in a very remote part,
• 34:21
  um, on the west, uh, west side of Vancouver Island there on Barkley sound.
• 34:25
  It's, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's difficult to get to and I think we.
• 34:29
  We are trying our best to bring this work a little bit closer to people in their
• 34:35
  everyday lives, make it more accessible.
• 34:37
  So, um, but that's a big part of the monitoring piece.
• 34:40
  And we were delighted to publish the monitoring, reporting and
• 34:43
  verification, uh, guidebook, uh, last year with the Kelp Forest Alliance.
• 34:48
  Uh, they've been a strong supporter of ours, and I would encourage
• 34:52
  folks if you're, if you are interested in kelp restoration Yeah.
• 34:55
  To go check out, uh, the website.
• 34:56
  There's a lot of interesting resources there and, and they're
• 34:59
  doing, uh, great work to kind of coordinate the global community of
• 35:04
  practice around kelp restoration.
• 35:06
  And they have a database there, uh, to upload restoration projects.
• 35:11
  And really, one of the main motivations to draft the MRV guidebook was to help
• 35:18
  standardize the way that kelp forest health are measured and monitored.
• 35:23
  So that.
• 35:24
  Uh, when organizations, communities, and other practitioners in this space are
• 35:28
  uploading their data, hopefully the idea is that more of it would be used or would
• 35:33
  be collected using the same methods.
• 35:34
  So we can compare more easily, apples to apples, oranges to oranges,
• 35:39
  And then hopefully understand, uh, a little bit better about which
• 35:43
  techniques have worked best and which, where there's room for improvement.
• 35:47
  And really to help the, the sharing of knowledge and lessons learned.
• 35:52
  So, um, you know, the monitoring for us is extremely important to understand
• 35:57
  what has been working and what has not.
• 35:59
  I think it's just as important.
• 36:01
  Uh, you know, we, we have a, we've set a culture inside the
• 36:04
  organization, organization and inside the initiative that, you know, we
• 36:08
  need to fail fast and learn from those mistakes and build off that.
• 36:12
  But we also don't wanna.
• 36:13
  Duplicate the wheel.
• 36:15
  So, you know, under having those databases, like with the KFA and also
• 36:20
  some of the regional hubs that, uh, and communities of practice that we're a part
• 36:24
  of, kind of allow us to allocate time and resources in the most effective way.
• 36:30
  Um, and uh, and I guess even just to add onto that quickly, you know, the
• 36:35
  monitoring is important from all, both kind of a carbon drawdown point of view.
• 36:40
  You know, we'd be interested to help or we'd be interested to start understanding
• 36:44
  a little bit more, uh, in detail the carbon stock of the kelp forest.
• 36:50
  Yeah.
• 36:50
  As well as the biodiversity gains that we see between an
• 36:53
  urchin baron and a kelp forest.
• 36:55
  And then also the social and cultural value, um, to the forest, to communities
• 37:00
  and, and indigenous nations that, um, have used kelp forests in a
• 37:04
  variety of ways, um, for millennia.
• 37:08
  It's, it's really interesting you meant that It's leading into my,
• 37:11
  you my storyline is perfect with you because you lead right into my next
• 37:14
  question, which is, which is fantastic.
• 37:16
  Um, I, I was gonna ask about, you know, the, the, the biological or ecological
• 37:20
  goals And then of course the climate related goals, which is such an important
• 37:24
  part these days as we're really starting to see climate change rear its ugly head
• 37:28
  in, in the consequences that we're seeing.
• 37:30
  Kelp forests are such an important, they play such an important role for carbon
• 37:33
  capture and climate mitigation, but they also play a role in, in sort of like
• 37:37
  biodiversity and habitat restoration.
• 37:40
  Do you have to balance those goals?
• 37:43
  Is that something that you have to worry about?
• 37:45
  Are there trade-offs?
• 37:46
  Like in certain areas, you're, you're more hopeful for carbon capture,
• 37:50
  so maybe there's a species that's a little bit better in carbon capture,
• 37:54
  or there's a species that's a little bit better in fostering biodiversity
• 37:57
  and, and more of that, that builder.
• 37:59
  Um, I don't know much about the, the, the interplay between the species,
• 38:03
  and of course it'll depend on where you're restoring because you want
• 38:06
  native species and things like that.
• 38:07
  But I guess the, the original question is like, do you have to have, do you
• 38:10
  have to balance those, the ecological goals and the climate related goals?
• 38:16
  Yeah, it's a good question.
• 38:17
  I wouldn't say, um, I wouldn't say that we, I wouldn't say
• 38:22
  that there's many trade offs.
• 38:24
  I mean, I guess if you wanted to use some.
• 38:27
  Extreme examples, but this wouldn't really be restoration.
• 38:29
  I mean, there are some groups who have tried growing seaweed in the ocean,
• 38:32
  open ocean and sinking it, you know, as a way, as kind of a CDR technique.
• 38:38
  So yeah.
• 38:38
  Um, you know, that there's, there's pros and cons around that, I think.
• 38:43
  Absolutely.
• 38:44
  You know, I think, I think there's probably more, there's better ways to,
• 38:48
  to use that seaweed in that biomass, and there's probably for sure more
• 38:51
  effective ways to, to pull carbon in a, in a better way out of the atmosphere.
• 38:55
  But, uh, you know, I, I'm also not closing the door on any options because we really
• 38:59
  do need kind of, uh, everything in front of us and all hands on deck, um, in,
• 39:04
  in the fight against climate change.
• 39:05
  So, um, but for us, I mean, we're focused, um, we're focused on the resiliency and
• 39:10
  the health of the kelp forest And then, you know, all the associated benefits
• 39:15
  that come after that, um, uh, are, are really just kind of the, the positive
• 39:22
  outcomes that, that we're hoping for.
• 39:25
  You know, kelp as a, as a climate ally.
• 39:28
  Certainly I would say five years ago, um, maybe a little bit longer,
• 39:32
  it was, uh, there was a real buzz around kelp is kind of a, a climate
• 39:36
  change ally in silver bullet.
• 39:38
  And it certainly is.
• 39:39
  Yeah.
• 39:39
  But I, you know, it's not, it's not going to, uh, sequester as much
• 39:45
  carbon perhaps as some people thought.
• 39:47
  Um, you know, it does grow very quickly.
• 39:49
  It can grow up to a foot or 45 centimeters a day with some species.
• 39:53
  It can draw down a lot of carbon.
• 39:56
  Um, but what percent of that gets buried in ocean sediments or exported to the deep
• 40:01
  abyss and how much is actually sequestered for longer periods of time mm-hmm.
• 40:06
  Is a really.
• 40:07
  Difficult question to answer.
• 40:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 40:09
  And that's why the kind of the carbon credit market for kelp forests have,
• 40:14
  uh, have not really become mature yet.
• 40:17
  Um, right.
• 40:19
  So yeah, our focus is more so on the biodiversity.
• 40:23
  We really want to get a better grasp of those benefits, um, and, and other
• 40:29
  ecosystem services down the road.
• 40:31
  Yeah.
• 40:31
  Um, but right now, I, you know, within the Sea Forestation initiative, we're treating
• 40:37
  kind of the carbon and the climate piece as a little bit of the cherry on top.
• 40:40
  Um, the rest of it for sure.
• 40:42
  Yeah.
• 40:42
  I mean, you're getting, you're kind of getting both when you do it,
• 40:45
  you know, and that's, that's the benefit of, of, of growing kelp.
• 40:49
  Uh, you know, we focus, I, and as a biologist, you know, obviously
• 40:51
  I focus on the ecological goals.
• 40:53
  Uh, we've talked about climate, we haven't talked about the benefits
• 40:57
  to sort of the social benefits.
• 40:59
  So the be benefits to indigenous communities, the benefits
• 41:03
  to communities at large.
• 41:04
  Um, you know.
• 41:06
  How are those incorporated into the Sea Forestation program to ensure that, you
• 41:12
  know, uh, you know, social dimensions, so social dimensions are included?
• 41:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 41:18
  Yeah, it's also, also a great question.
• 41:21
  Um, you know, I think we've, uh, we've.
• 41:25
  We've done some great work with the Scha First Nation to bring
• 41:28
  out some, uh, some youth from the community with us on the boats.
• 41:32
  You know, as we go to the restoration sites.
• 41:34
  We had, um, help from three wonderful high school students, uh, last year who were,
• 41:39
  uh, you know, kind of rolling up their sleeves and getting their hands dirty.
• 41:42
  And I Nice, uh, really, uh, hats off, uh, to them 'cause it
• 41:46
  was hard work for a few days.
• 41:48
  I think that's an, an important opportunity, you know, particularly
• 41:51
  with, uh, with young people and young professionals to showcase
• 41:55
  various careers and conservations.
• 41:57
  I mean, uh, there's a lot of different, uh, there's a lot of different
• 42:02
  career pathways for young people.
• 42:04
  Um, and I know that, uh, you know, in, in rural and remote communities,
• 42:08
  you know, these types of, uh, jobs can provide some really great livelihoods
• 42:12
  for folks, um, in the communities where perhaps there's, uh, more limited options.
• 42:17
  And I think with the nation, um, you know, I wouldn't, uh, wanna speak
• 42:20
  on their behalf, but I, I know that, uh, we have been fortunate to spend
• 42:24
  some time with, uh, with some of the elders at the s at First Nation.
• 42:28
  And, um, you know, to summarize or to paraphrase a little bit, I
• 42:32
  mean, thankful that, uh, we're out there and we're trying to do some of
• 42:36
  that work with them, but also, um, wanting to lead that work themselves.
• 42:41
  And that's, uh, that goes towards the restoration activities and the monitoring.
• 42:46
  Um, and we've been, uh, really, really pleased to work as closely
• 42:53
  as we have with the nation.
• 42:54
  But we're, we've got some funding to.
• 42:56
  Provide some other dive training, uh, for community members.
• 43:00
  And that's part of the capacity building, uh, within the nation that we, we hope,
• 43:05
  um, will kind of, uh, allow more of the, more of the, the nation to, uh, lead more
• 43:13
  of the activities in Barclay sound at the restoration sites through the actual, um,
• 43:18
  delivery of the restoration activities and the monitoring and the reporting.
• 43:21
  There's a whole bunch of interesting data analysis work
• 43:24
  that we're gonna have to have done.
• 43:25
  And, um, I think the, the cultural value of kelp has been there within
• 43:31
  the community, uh, for a very long time and something that we're, um,
• 43:36
  excited to, to kind of help grow again.
• 43:39
  Yeah.
• 43:39
  And, and growing this, this Sea Forestation program, are there specific,
• 43:44
  I guess, economic or, or policy mechanisms that will, that like, are
• 43:49
  essential for scaling this program?
• 43:52
  Hmm.
• 43:53
  Yeah, so that's interesting.
• 43:55
  Interesting question.
• 43:56
  I, I just had a very interesting conversation with, uh, with
• 44:00
  someone about kind of the economic benefits of restoring kelp forests.
• 44:06
  Yeah.
• 44:06
  And that's something that, um, you know, I, the federal
• 44:09
  government is more interested in.
• 44:11
  Um, you know, I think it started, um, in some ways with the 30 by
• 44:16
  30 agenda and creating more MPAs.
• 44:20
  But I think there's a little bit more, um, desire to understand, okay, the
• 44:27
  MPA has, the Marine protected area has been created, but what is the
• 44:30
  economic benefit associated with that?
• 44:32
  How do you measure the conservation benefit of that?
• 44:36
  And I think right now, you know, the ecosystem services of kelp, there's,
• 44:42
  uh, it's almost, it's certainly an underestimation, but, um, Dr.
• 44:46
  Aaron Eger, um, who is the executive director of the Kelp Forest
• 44:49
  Alliance, I mentioned earlier.
• 44:51
  Uh, released a paper last year with an estimate of some of the ecosystem services
• 44:55
  values of different species of kelp.
• 44:58
  And the rough numbers were, uh, that each hectare of kelp per year
• 45:04
  produces around 60 to $145,000 us, um, per hectare per year.
• 45:12
  And that's just accounting for some of the fishery supports
• 45:15
  And then some of the carbon sequestration and nitrogen fixation.
• 45:19
  So, you know, all of the other ecosystem services values is not included in that.
• 45:24
  So that's why I, I say that number is, is likely an underestimation, but our
• 45:29
  issue right now is that we can't bring that ecosystem services value into
• 45:34
  these projects in a meaningful way.
• 45:38
  And until we do that, I think it's going to be difficult to have
• 45:41
  the budgets and the financing to scale restoration, um, to, uh, a
• 45:46
  really globally significant level.
• 45:49
  Um, because we, because they're chronically undervalued, you know, is
• 45:54
  really the issue, you know, and, and if they are producing a hundred or $150,000
• 46:00
  per year in ecosystem services, um, then how do we, how do we make the business
• 46:05
  case to the right investors or whatever to actually invest in kelp forest because
• 46:12
  they are really one of the greatest investments we can make in the ocean.
• 46:17
  Yeah, no abs absolutely.
• 46:18
  They, they definitely are.
• 46:19
  It's, it's something I think you get, you get your, your best bang for your buck,
• 46:22
  I feel, with, uh, with, with Kelp Forest.
• 46:25
  So I think it's, that's our new logo on the Sea Forestation initiative is,
• 46:29
  uh, kelp is the best bang for the buck.
• 46:30
  So I love it.
• 46:32
  I love it.
• 46:32
  I mean, you know, I just, you look in a kelp forest, I, I live in, just outside
• 46:37
  of Toronto and I go into the, uh.
• 46:41
  The, the aquarium, the Ripley's Aquarium.
• 46:43
  Yeah.
• 46:43
  They have a great display for, for, uh, for kelp forests.
• 46:47
  You see all the species that are there, like just the fish species, they're
• 46:51
  not talk, they didn't, they don't show sort of the invertebrate species.
• 46:54
  They don't show, you know, the Marine mammals that are, that live in there
• 46:58
  and that, that thrive in there, you know, the sea stars And so forth.
• 47:02
  It is such an important aspect to, uh, you know, for stability,
• 47:07
  for biodiversity, for security.
• 47:10
  Uh, it is just, it's just great.
• 47:12
  Um, but, you know, there's a lot of things that go with, with restoration.
• 47:16
  It's not as easy as we're making it sound right now.
• 47:19
  You know, you've talked about some of the, the, the physical, you know,
• 47:23
  problems with that, but you know, what, what are some of the like.
• 47:27
  The biggest scientific or even practical uncertainties when we look
• 47:31
  at global kelp restoration right now.
• 47:34
  Mm-hmm.
• 47:34
  Like the efforts.
• 47:35
  Mm-hmm.
• 47:35
  So like, is it genetics, is it resilience, monitoring, or resilience
• 47:38
  or monitoring ecosystem interactions, invasive species like climate change.
• 47:44
  What are some of the things that are really hindering or some of the
• 47:47
  biggest barriers, uh, towards, uh, restorations and kelp restoration?
• 47:53
  Yeah.
• 47:53
  Well, I mean, unfortunately it's a little bit of all the above.
• 47:56
  All of the above.
• 47:57
  Yeah.
• 47:57
  And I, uh, you know, I think, uh, certainly, you know, I've sound like
• 48:02
  a broken record probably on, on the funding piece, but, um, you know,
• 48:07
  we, it is, it is expensive work.
• 48:09
  These are remote locations.
• 48:11
  And I think, you know, the, the rough stat is that about 95% of
• 48:16
  kelp restoration projects are one or two hectares in size because.
• 48:21
  They're quite expensive, you know, to, to operate and to do,
• 48:24
  uh, to kind of grow at scale.
• 48:26
  So there's certainly a financial component, but I think as we, as we
• 48:30
  look to the future, it's, uh, you know, we've got questions around where are
• 48:35
  the best places to focus restoration efforts in a world, uh, in a warming
• 48:39
  world, and warming, warming ocean.
• 48:41
  Um, we've got an interesting project with, uh, with the University of British
• 48:46
  Columbia and the University of Victoria to do some past modeling of kind of the,
• 48:52
  of kelp forest, uh, spatial extents, um, in bc but also, And then kind of
• 48:58
  looking forward under a few different climate scenarios, where might we,
• 49:02
  our efforts be best placed and other efforts be best placed in the province
• 49:06
  to, uh, focus on restoration efforts?
• 49:08
  Because there is a thermal tolerance that kelp has, and above that,
• 49:12
  above that temperature, it cannot reproduce, it cannot survive.
• 49:15
  And.
• 49:15
  It's what we've seen, um, in certain spots, uh, throughout the province.
• 49:19
  You know, most notably I'd say in the state of Georgia, we are
• 49:22
  seeing much higher temperatures.
• 49:24
  And so then it, it also goes into the question of, you know, what kind of, um,
• 49:30
  selective adaptation we might pursue.
• 49:33
  There's, there's kind of a genetic, there's a genetics part
• 49:36
  of this, which is I think, quite controversial and rightly so.
• 49:40
  But, you know, how do we protect, protect the genetic diversity of BC's, kelp
• 49:44
  forest, but also how do we best, um, set ourselves up for a warmer world?
• 49:50
  And there are pockets of kelp that have proven to be perhaps a little bit
• 49:54
  more resilient to higher temperatures.
• 49:56
  You know, should that, should those genetics kind of act as the foundation
• 50:00
  for future restoration efforts?
• 50:02
  Um, you know, these are, these are, these are hotly contested questions for sure.
• 50:07
  That's for sure.
• 50:09
  And I, I think they deserve a lot of scrutiny.
• 50:11
  But, um.
• 50:12
  You know, I think we, we do need to recognize that things are
• 50:15
  changing very quickly around us.
• 50:17
  So, um, you know, there's a regulatory component.
• 50:20
  You know, I would, uh, I would argue that Kelp has really flown
• 50:23
  under the radar and most global environmental, um, uh, agreements.
• 50:28
  And, you know, I'm not exactly, don't quote me on this, uh, uh, a hundred
• 50:34
  percent, but I know kelp has received just a fraction of the funding
• 50:37
  that Coral reefs have, for example.
• 50:39
  Um, despite kind of having kind of a five to seven times larger
• 50:43
  area than coral reef reefs.
• 50:44
  And I don't wanna get all the coral reef, uh, restoration folks angry at me.
• 50:48
  I'm not picking, I'm not picking a fight, but, um, absolutely,
• 50:51
  totally agree with you.
• 50:52
  Totally.
• 50:53
  Couldn't agree more with you.
• 50:54
  Yeah, no, it's, it's, uh, yeah, you know, we need to, we need to increase
• 50:57
  that funding for kelp forests as well.
• 50:59
  For sure.
• 50:59
  Um, you know, they cover, um, 30% of the world's coastline, so,
• 51:03
  um, not insignificant for sure.
• 51:06
  You know, looking at, you know, we talked about funding, we talked a lot
• 51:10
  of, a lot of the, the barriers, uh, facing it, uh, facing kelp restoration.
• 51:14
  Looking forward, past, say 2030, what does success look like for sea forestation?
• 51:22
  You know, like what are we looking at?
• 51:23
  Scale outcomes change you would make, uh, you know, cons like that, that
• 51:28
  you would make or would make use, say like consider ca sea forestation
• 51:32
  as a win for oceans and climate.
• 51:35
  Yeah.
• 51:35
  I think, you know, beyond 2030, I think we would, uh.
• 51:39
  Uh, be able to look at, you know, hundreds if not thousands of restoration
• 51:43
  projects, you know, at the community level where kelp forests are, are thriving
• 51:48
  again, and, and resilience and really having the data to, to back that up.
• 51:53
  You know, being able to kind of visualize the, the success, um, of that work and
• 51:58
  having kind of a, a co-managed and, you know, a local solution to some of
• 52:03
  these issues because there's no one right way to go about kelp restoration
• 52:08
  and, and, uh, folks with, uh, with local knowledge, uh, and the history
• 52:13
  of, of the place will best know how to go about and what's most appropriate.
• 52:18
  Um, you know, I, I think the work that the KFA and, and others are doing is great in
• 52:23
  terms of connecting the global community of practice around kelp restoration.
• 52:26
  I'd like to see that, um, you know, strengthen these local regional
• 52:30
  networks that we're a part of, um, are growing and strengthening.
• 52:33
  More people are.
• 52:34
  Into, into kelp.
• 52:36
  I was actually, uh, well, max, Dana and I were lucky enough to go to the
• 52:40
  International Seaweed Symposium, uh, this year in Victoria in May, and it
• 52:45
  was, uh, it's kind of like the Olympics of seaweed where there's 500 PhDs and in
• 52:50
  psychology and, and seaweed, uh, that, uh, we're just so impressive and there's
• 52:55
  so much interest, interesting research, uh, going on in the area so that, that
• 52:59
  needs to continue to, uh, to develop.
• 53:02
  And I would say, um, you know, the alignment with the government regulations
• 53:07
  and the regulatory frameworks, um, you know, to, uh, to support the
• 53:13
  restoration work that is going on in, in the near shore ecosystems
• 53:17
  and, and around, uh, around Canada.
• 53:19
  Really, I would say that, uh, we, we could be, uh, doing a bit more
• 53:25
  to remove some of the challenges facing restoration organizations.
• 53:30
  Um, on that side of things.
• 53:32
  And then, and really once we, you know, if we can get alignment on some of
• 53:35
  the funding and the regulatory piece and, and the community buy-in, then I
• 53:39
  think the door opens for, uh, really significant success in the coming years.
• 53:45
  I'm a science communicator, right?
• 53:46
  That's what I do.
• 53:47
  This is the podcast.
• 53:49
  It's to inform people.
• 53:50
  I have a lot of early career researchers.
• 53:52
  I have a lot of, and scientists and conservationists.
• 53:55
  I have a lot of people who are activists on here.
• 53:57
  I have a lot of people who are just interested in knowing what they can
• 54:00
  do to, to live for a better ocean.
• 54:01
  That's my, that's my my tagline.
• 54:03
  Mm-hmm.
• 54:04
  As a science communicator, and I have a lot of fellow science communicators.
• 54:08
  What can we do, what do you think we can do to, to build sort of that broader
• 54:13
  public awareness for these underwater forests and, and the restoration that's
• 54:18
  so important to keep these forests going?
• 54:21
  Yeah.
• 54:22
  Great question.
• 54:23
  And it's, it's, uh.
• 54:24
  We have, uh, we've also struggled, I would say, because it's hard
• 54:28
  to bring people to kelp forests.
• 54:31
  You know, I, um, they're, they're, they're under the water.
• 54:34
  It's often quite cold, uh, and et cetera, et cetera.
• 54:38
  So, I mean, one way that, uh, we have done this at Ocean Wise is through
• 54:42
  our mobile education programs.
• 54:44
  We have our.
• 54:45
  Our sea dome, which is, uh, a bit, uh, like an inflatable dome.
• 54:49
  You can fit about 30 kids inside and there's a 360 degree 4K video that
• 54:54
  projects on the inside of the dome.
• 54:57
  And so it's kind of like you're underwater.
• 54:59
  And, uh, it's been extremely successful, uh, over the last few years, uh,
• 55:03
  reaching, uh, tens of thousands of, of students across Canada.
• 55:07
  Um, And so that's one way that we're trying, I think, you know, there's,
• 55:10
  uh, I recently saw some virtual reality headsets that you can, uh,
• 55:14
  put on and you dive underneath the water and through the kelp forest.
• 55:18
  And I think that's one of the most immersive, really, really
• 55:21
  moving ways to go about it.
• 55:23
  Yeah.
• 55:23
  Talk about connecting to the ocean, right.
• 55:25
  Without getting wet.
• 55:26
  Yeah.
• 55:27
  Like it's such a, it's it's really Yeah.
• 55:29
  Yeah.
• 55:29
  It's, it's really incredible.
• 55:30
  Um, yeah, Um, So I would say, you know, continue, you know, from, from a science
• 55:35
  communication standpoint, I think, uh, continuing to bring guests on who can talk
• 55:41
  about kelp forest and their importance in different ways, I think we need to.
• 55:45
  Raise awareness around just how important kelp forests are and what they provide.
• 55:49
  Um, uh, you know, not that they, there's also a, just a wonderful
• 55:53
  intrinsic value to kelp forests.
• 55:55
  But, um, you know, from a more, from a kind of an objective standpoint,
• 55:59
  they provide just so much benefit to, to humanity that, um, it's,
• 56:04
  it's very much in our best interest, uh, to, to protect and restore.
• 56:09
  And, uh, I would say try and, uh, try and learn more about kelp in your region.
• 56:14
  You know, if you are near, if you are near the ocean, um, you know, go
• 56:18
  along the shoreline and see what, uh, type of seaweed or kelp is washed up.
• 56:21
  You know, it's, it's, uh, sometimes I feel like it's, uh, it's not that well known.
• 56:27
  People are stepping on it and maybe slipping on it.
• 56:29
  Uh, sure if they take the wrong step, but, uh, these are really
• 56:32
  important, uh, species and ecosystems that are usually pretty close by
• 56:36
  if you're, if you're somewhere near the ocean in Canada, that's amazing.
• 56:40
  So, you know, are you a diver, snorkeler?
• 56:43
  Yeah, I do both.
• 56:44
  Yeah.
• 56:45
  Okay, perfect.
• 56:46
  When you, if, if you've gone diving on a, on a kelp forest, uh, what, what's,
• 56:52
  when you go diving or when you're in there, what's your favorite part
• 56:56
  of, of, of diving in a kelp forest?
• 56:58
  Like what do you look for or hope to see every time you go diving on a kelp forest?
• 57:04
  Yeah, it's a really special experience.
• 57:06
  Um, I would, it's, it is really like stepping into another world.
• 57:10
  I mean, in a kelp forest, it's a, it's a three dimensional structure.
• 57:13
  You know, the light shines through and just, you know, the most beautiful way.
• 57:17
  Um, as long as the visibility is is good.
• 57:20
  Yeah.
• 57:20
  And, uh, you know, there's, they're just, the, the abundance of the biodiversity
• 57:25
  and other, and Marine species inside the kelp forest is, uh, is, is so impressive.
• 57:29
  You know, it, they're, they're, they're kind of quiet.
• 57:32
  It's a little bit hypnotic, you know, they're waving back and
• 57:35
  forth in the water and, uh, it's just a very special experience.
• 57:39
  So, you know, when I'm, when I'm there, I'm just trying to.
• 57:42
  Take it all in, be in the moment.
• 57:44
  Um, you know, enjoy the, the rare kind of, uh, time that I get to, to be in
• 57:50
  the water and among, among the kelp.
• 57:52
  I know, uh, max and Dana are kind of in there a little bit
• 57:55
  more, uh, than, than I am.
• 57:57
  But I'm trying to, to change that.
• 57:59
  And, uh, I think, I think ultimately they just give me hope, you know?
• 58:03
  Yeah.
• 58:03
  I think that's, they're, they're just, they're such a,
• 58:06
  they're such a positive aspect.
• 58:08
  Mm-hmm.
• 58:09
  Um, they're such a po they're, they're, they're a source of positivity in, in
• 58:12
  the world right now, and it just reminds me of that every time I'm near them.
• 58:15
  I think it gives such a, a beautiful look of what we don't
• 58:20
  understand about the ocean.
• 58:22
  I think when, when a lot of people picture the ocean, they picture
• 58:26
  coral reefs, they picture mm-hmm.
• 58:28
  Or, or just blue and nothingness, you know, like in a, in a, say, open ocean.
• 58:33
  When you look at a kelp forest, there's so much to look at.
• 58:37
  Like from the ground up, you know?
• 58:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 58:39
  And not only just the kelp forest, but the fish, like I said, the
• 58:42
  invertebrates, the, the, the sea stars, the even the sea urchins.
• 58:46
  You might see a sea otter, you might see a seal or a sea lion, you know,
• 58:50
  coming through every once in a while.
• 58:52
  You know, there's all these different aspects of it up and down that,
• 58:55
  that, that Pacific coast and it's, it just gives you a, a different
• 59:00
  breadth of what the ocean can be.
• 59:02
  Uh, you know, and it's, it's absolutely gorgeous.
• 59:05
  I've never gone diving on, on, uh, kelp forests.
• 59:09
  I look forward to doing it someday.
• 59:10
  It is on my bucket list because it's one of my favorite exhibits
• 59:14
  at any aquarium, uh, that I go to.
• 59:16
  And it's something that, you know, I look forward to.
• 59:18
  And it, and it provides that, just that connection, like you said, like the hope
• 59:22
  that you could have a productive ocean.
• 59:25
  And I think having any way we can, whether you want to get wet and connect
• 59:28
  or you want to go virtual and connect, I think any way to connect is such an
• 59:32
  important aspect to understanding, uh.
• 59:35
  Just the, the biology that's down there, the importance of, of it down there
• 59:39
  and how people really rely on these, on these habitats to, uh, to survive.
• 59:44
  I just want, I just wanna say thank you so much, uh, for, for coming in
• 59:48
  and talking about sea forestation.
• 59:49
  I'd love to have you back on, or anybody else who's part of Sea Forestation
• 59:53
  back on, or even ocean wise at large.
• 59:55
  You know, it'd be, it'd be really great to have more people talk and give
• 59:59
  that, that, you know, audio or visual of what, uh, these areas look like.
• 1:00:03
  Um, it's such an, an important aspect to not only Canadian life, but ocean
• 1:00:07
  life in general and, and kelp forests are, are our future and they need, they,
• 1:00:11
  they were part of our past and they need to be part of our future as well.
• 1:00:13
  So, uh, I wanna thank you so much for, for coming on.
• 1:00:16
  It's been a, a great experience to meet you and, and hear all
• 1:00:18
  about, uh, sea Forest Station.
• 1:00:20
  Yeah.
• 1:00:21
  Well thank you for having me on And/or.
• 1:00:22
  That was, uh, fantastic.
• 1:00:24
  And, uh, you know, if you find yourself out, uh, here in Vancouver in the, in the
• 1:00:28
  darker Rainier months, that's when we're.
• 1:00:30
  I'm kind of most active in the water.
• 1:00:32
  So there's a, there's a possibility there.
• 1:00:34
  And, um, yeah, we've got lots of other, uh, uh, really
• 1:00:38
  wonderful folks at Ocean Wise.
• 1:00:40
  If there's other subjects that we want to explore, um, there's, there's lots
• 1:00:44
  of, uh, important work to be done, uh, to improve, uh, ocean Health,
• 1:00:48
  and I think we'd be delighted to come back on the show, uh, in the future.
• 1:00:51
  So, yeah.
• 1:00:52
  Thanks very much.
• 1:00:52
  It's been a pleasure.
• 1:00:53
  You bet.
• 1:00:54
  Thank you, Scott.
• 1:00:54
  I appreciate it.
• 1:00:55
  Thank you, Scott, for joining us on today's episode of the How
• 1:00:58
  to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
• 1:00:59
  It's great to have you on.
• 1:01:01
  I hope it's not the last time I see you.
• 1:01:03
  I hope we'll see you many, many times.
• 1:01:04
  We can talk about specific projects, of course, ocean Wise, anybody from Ocean
• 1:01:08
  Wise would love to have you on the podcast to talk about the different programs.
• 1:01:11
  This is a huge thing for me, like to be able to connect with somebody
• 1:01:14
  from a great organization like Ocean Wise is absolutely massive.
• 1:01:17
  As a Canadian, as a Marine biologist, as a science communicator, to help
• 1:01:21
  disseminate this information to you, I think it's super important
• 1:01:25
  and must be done more so hopefully we'll have them back on for more.
• 1:01:28
  Let me know what you loved in this interview.
• 1:01:30
  Was it the fact that we talked about restoration and the
• 1:01:32
  mechanisms of restoration?
• 1:01:33
  Was it the fact that we talked about.
• 1:01:35
  How important kelp forests are.
• 1:01:37
  Was it the fact that we talked about some of the barriers to
• 1:01:40
  scaling up a program like this?
• 1:01:42
  Let me know what your thoughts on kelp forest.
• 1:01:44
  Let me know if you use a product that has kelp in it.
• 1:01:47
  I would love for you to tell me.
• 1:01:49
  Let me know in the comments below.
• 1:01:50
  If you're watching this on YouTube, if you are listening to this on your
• 1:01:53
  favorite podcast app, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, whatever
• 1:01:57
  that might be, love to hear from you.
• 1:01:59
  If you go to speak up for blue.com/feedback, you can either write
• 1:02:05
  a comment or you can leave a voicemail.
• 1:02:07
  I'd be happy if you want, just let me know in the voicemail to play that
• 1:02:10
  voicemail on the next episode, answer your questions or listen to your comments.
• 1:02:14
  I think that would be something that's really great.
• 1:02:16
  It's a new program that I'm trying out.
• 1:02:18
  I'd love to hear your feedback.
• 1:02:19
  It goes directly to me if you don't want it to be shared.
• 1:02:22
  No worries.
• 1:02:22
  If you want to be shared, that would be great.
• 1:02:24
  I could share that as well.
• 1:02:25
  Speak up for blue.com/feedback.
• 1:02:28
  If you're watching this on YouTube, you can use that too, or you can use the
• 1:02:30
  comments below, but I just want to build that community, get more interaction.
• 1:02:34
  Love to talk about the ocean.
• 1:02:36
  As you know, I talk about three times a week, probably more than that, behind
• 1:02:39
  the scenes, but I really love to do that, so check it out, subscribe, you
• 1:02:44
  know, follow whatever you need to do.
• 1:02:45
  I love all of you.
• 1:02:47
  I love the fact that you wanna learn more about the ocean and I get to
• 1:02:49
  be the person to tell you about it.
• 1:02:51
  Then I wanna thank Scott and Ocean Wise and Sea Forest Station for
• 1:02:54
  coming on the podcast to let us know more about Sea Forest Station.
• 1:02:57
  Thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:02:58
  I'm your host, and/or Lewin from the True Nord Strong and Free, and for the host
• 1:03:02
  of this How to Protect The Ocean Podcast.
• 1:03:04
  Thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:03:05
  Have a great day.
• 1:03:07
  I'll talk to you next time, and happy conservation.