Latest / WTF! Women Talk Finance / EP 19: The Loneliness Economy Is Bigger Than Dating Apps

Transcript

EP 19: The Loneliness Economy Is Bigger Than Dating Apps · WTF! Women Talk Finance

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_06: I'm Jackie.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_06: I'm Kid.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_06: And this is WTF.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_05: Grab your coffee, wine, water bottle, emotional support snack, no judgment.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_06: And let's get into it.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_06: We're back.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_06: Welcome to WTF, women talk finance and so many other things that start with F and things that don't start with F.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_06: We have a super, super interesting, in our opinion, topic today.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_06: And it's called the Loneliness Economy.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_06: Let's go.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_06: What's the loneliness economy, Candace?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_06: In your own words.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, okay.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_04: So it's funny because when we first started talking about this, my brain went two different directions.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_04: And now I think it's like a third direction.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_04: Are you ready?
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_04: Let's go all, let's go down all the pathways.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_04: One, two, and three.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_04: My first thought when you said loneliness economy, my brain went to this whole thing we're being fed on this loneliness epidemic.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, I think I even said it to you.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, boo-boo, it's just women, we want to be on our, we want to be, we're choosing loneliness.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_04: This is not a we've got to be.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_06: So you're seeing a loneliness market as a wonderful thing.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_06: Like, let me in.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_06: I want to be alone.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, we we have higher standards now.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: We don't have to couple up.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I, yeah.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_04: So that was my first thought.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_04: Then and I love that.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_06: That's its own whole show.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_04: It's own whole thing.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I was like, yes, let's get this.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_04: Thinking commune.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_04: I'm thinking like my own little house of solitude and quiet.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_04: But but then my brain went to wait, wait, wait.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_04: We live in this world of like everything is built to be coupled.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like you're you're incentivized to buddy up.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_04: We've got a buddy system world.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_04: You everything is cheaper and easier when you buddy up, right?
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_04: Like the tax system.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_04: The taxes get easier, healthcare gets easier.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_04: All of these things are like incentivizing us financially to get a place.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_04: You really need two incomes to make it work.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_04: Um, when you get like serving sizes, it's easier to cook for two people than it is to cook for one person, unless you do girl dinner, which is my favorite.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_04: Um and so that's where my brain went.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_04: Then there's a third thing that's really what we're talking about.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so in the long- on this show.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_04: On this show.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_06: I think it's worth circling back on those first two separately, both of them.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_06: They are super interesting and topics worthy of like a full deep dive chat.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I think today intertwine, but today we're talking about the loneliness economy.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_04: There is an entire economy built around people who are lonely.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_04: Not yes, choosing to be alone.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_04: I want to be really clear.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_04: There's such a big difference between choosing to be alone and something built off supporting that and loneliness economy, which feels more predatory, and preying on people who are feeling lonely, feeling isolated, and that is a space for businesses to come in.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_04: They've filled it, they've created the market, they're building products and they're charging people for shit they don't need or overcharging for things that maybe again in our world are built for two people and it's built for one, and it's it's feeling very predatory, this whole new myth economy.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_06: Let's put this into some really like practical, practical things.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_06: So, first of all, if you think back to like, I don't know, in junior high, I had like mentors in classes that were aimed at teaching young people how to connect, how to make eye contact when you're speaking to someone, right?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_06: So many of our young people are so on screens all day and interacting with people in a different way, right?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_06: Apps, smartphones, the internet, all of it's changed how we relate.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_06: And as a result of that, I think there is more loneliness inherent in like younger relationships because the connection is different.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_06: And older, mature people have this understanding of how to develop relationships and connect and beat loneliness, but I don't know that young people have the tools.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_06: And so I think also during COVID, loneliness became much more um on people's radar, but at some point it became a market.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_06: And what they what they offer us in this market, right?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_06: Match.com and all of the apps that go to connection in that type of space.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_06: Um but they're pay to play, they're pay to play, and they're not designed for healing us and curing loneliness per se.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_06: They are designed to keep us clicking and keep us engaged, they're designed to keep us on the app.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_06: I I come from two camps.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_04: I I met my husband the old-fashioned way, but so I don't know.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_04: At a bar.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_04: No.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_06: Um at church.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_04: Um at a pool.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um I but but so I have no experience with with dating apps.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_04: I have no experience.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_04: What I do have experience with is capitalism.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_04: And I see both the good and the bad, right?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I fully transparent.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_04: I don't always feel like I've been on the right side of the coin.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, they're these these apps, these pay-to-play dating things, to me can border on predatory or some of them going full bore into predatory because you're right.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_04: They don't make money because you make a connection right off the bat.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_04: They don't make money because your first month in you find the love of your life.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_04: And I will say, I know so many people who've met the love of their life.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_04: They're absolute person on match.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_04: I know so many people.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_04: And so I'm like, okay, I can see this working.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_04: There's there's so many apps now.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_04: I'm curious.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm curious, do they do they introduce you to the love of your life right away?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_04: Or do they introduce you to we're potential to keep you going because they make money the longer you're on the app, they make money the more that you put into it.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_06: So it's all a subscription model.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_06: They they are relying on you actually subscribing to ongoing loneliness.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_04: So I am speaking out my ass because I'm fully acknowledging here, I've not done it.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_04: I'm also fully acknowledging I know people who have done it and been wildly successful, and I know people whose hearts have been absolutely crushed repeatedly because they are paying for these things and they are just wanting to find their person.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_04: So I've seen it from both of you.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_06: So do you think this product that's meant to help with loneliness, do you think it's actually making the problem worse?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_06: Do you think these apps, and I I did I didn't mean to call out match singularly.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_06: There's so many, right?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_06: Bumble Tinder, Hinge.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_04: I I will say I've met people who've met on match and are I'm like, that's incredible.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_04: I actually have two people very close to me who met their person on match, and I am like, holy crap, you almost couldn't.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_06: We're also not endorsing, we're not endorsing Matt.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_04: But you couldn't like, you couldn't conjure this love up in a lab.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's so crazy how much how perfect of a connection they have.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um so I think you hit on something a little different though.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_04: So much of the problem of our loneliness stems from our addiction to devices, and we kind of live in this instant gratification world where I can I can have almost anything sent to my house.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_04: I don't have to leave.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_04: Meaning I don't have to have social interactions.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_04: It's a beautiful world we live in.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_04: Um I um I can do so much just just through this, right?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_06: I can have it all brought to me.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_06: I don't need to leave my house.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_06: So many things.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_04: I can be entertained endlessly, I don't need to go to the movies, they're all in my house.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_04: I don't need to do, I don't need to go to Blockbuster.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_04: They come right to me.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um you know Miss Blockbuster though.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Blockbuster.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_04: It's so good.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_04: So it's part of the causation, and then we see it also trying to be the solution as well, like digital solutions being there to solve the problem caused by the devices being delivered on the devices that are supposed to.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_04: It's I don't know, it does feel like there is a predatory nature to this loneliness economy.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_06: So we've got part of this loneliness economy, let's just call it out.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_06: There's these dating and chat apps, which we've already identified, but there's also like solo living infrastructures, single serve food, solo dining, micro apartments, that 2.4% of new US units nationally, by the way, um, and 66% of Seattle's pipeline.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_06: Interesting.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_06: Um a lot more money basically being pumped into the market to build single unit housing.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_06: Uh, we've got like pet robot rentals, platonic companion listings, rent of family services, other paid companionship.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_06: I didn't know about this, right?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_06: I've got sources.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_06: We'll post it in the link.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_06: These, but more like AI companions.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_06: All of these additional types of offerings are coming on the market and making it larger and larger and larger.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_04: And I think there's two sides to this, right?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_04: We're talking about in my brain, this is two different things being lumped into one.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_04: There we're we're labeling this broadly as the loneliness economy.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_04: There is loneliness and alone.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_04: I'm very different.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_04: I'm fully on board for single living and having that option.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's so important because again, we have built this whole system as of recently.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_04: We used to be able to afford it off of a single income.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_04: Now it's really hard to afford life on a single income.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_04: So if we are actively building housing to support single living, 100%.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, please, let's do more of that.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_04: More, more of that.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_04: If we are building rent of family and companion robots, to me, that's a different thing.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_04: That's not somebody who's choosing to reside alone and needing an economically viable solution.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_04: That is somebody who is seeking companionship and we're trying to fit, we're trying to make that work by plugging in more technology.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_04: And that's the part where I'm like, ooh, that's that feels like we're trying to solve a problem with a problem.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so I I really am like, these things feel like we've lumped in two very different economies into one economy.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, you're right.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_06: I think they are worthy of treating them separately.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_06: The the loneliness, that's its own like public health emergency.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_06: Being alone is something that's maybe to be the it's time to celebrate that narrative.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_06: It is.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_06: That's a big piece.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's so important because so often, especially as women, we are still defined by our relationships.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, our partnership, whether we need a to procreate, what our uterus has been up to lately.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_06: Spoiler alert, that okay, it is I'm giggling to myself because I have to like wide share with this with the audience.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_06: Candace has been with her family in RV on like a six-week road trip.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_06: And it went, it went great.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_06: There were so many highlights.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_06: Wonderfully, but everyone doing this show on the heels of her getting back to her house, sleeping in her own bed, using her her own washing machine, and having like a wall between her and her children for the first time in six weeks.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_06: So I that's why I'm giggling too as well because Candace is working.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_06: I'm here to talk about the beauty of being alone.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_04: I'm championing being like single solo by choice.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_06: I am here for like hey baby girl, we will give that its own episode.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_06: Don't you worry.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_06: We're gonna give that a lot of time.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_04: I want that.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_04: I want that for everyone who wants that.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I I realize like there's there's people like it it's it's a choice for some, and it's not a choice.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_04: It's not by choice for others.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_04: You're totally right.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_04: There's um I'm like holiness economy, scoop me up.
• 14:40
  unknown: Please claim me.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_06: I am the be alone economy.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_05: I'm ready to be alone for a little bit.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_06: But well, okay, so just for clarity, then what we're talking about really is that there's a lot of these products meant to provide companionship.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_06: They're not evil, they're not bad, they're just priced per month, and they're not guaranteeing connection.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_06: That's not a guaranteed outcome.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_04: And I think what we need to identify is this economy, this loneliness economy, isn't different than any other economy.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_04: Think about lending.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_04: Lending has great pieces to it.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_04: More people are able to purchase homes, more people are able to purchase businesses.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_04: There's opportunities for people to experience the world that they never thought possible because of lending.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_04: And then there is a very deep, dark underbelly to lending.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_03: Dark side.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_04: Dark side.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_04: The predatory there's predatory lending.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_04: All of us subscribe to it.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_04: And it is so I am not saying that this one segment is bad.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_04: I'm saying we need to really take a good hard look at every single thing and see where the market is being manipulative and what is our role as consumers and just human beings to call it out and recognize it.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_04: Match could be great.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_04: And and I I hope they are, and I know so many people who have done that, but there's also like a gazillion other dating apps.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_04: There are some predatory ones amongst them.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_04: There just are.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_04: There just are.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_04: There have to be because that is how this works.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_04: This is how this system works.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_04: And so anytime there's an opportunity to swoop in and build a whole market around a vulnerability, around a gap, you know, there is a gap in the market.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but we're not serving our people who are choosing what who are alone either by choice or by circumstance.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_04: We we just do not have enough built for that.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_04: There's a whole group that comes in and is like, and we need to realize and recognize that at the end of the day, essentially we are we are all a commodity.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_06: So where's the line, do you think, between a product that actually does help someone and a product that is essentially farming them?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think you you kind of already nailed it.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_04: Are they actually helping people?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_04: When they when they accept income when when they're charging people, are they actually working on a solution?
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_04: I think the single housing is great.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_04: To me, absolutely, that is making something that is nearly unattainable for somebody to live by themselves.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_04: And and I have a lot of friends that live alone, and it is very difficult to find uh housing that makes sense when you're on a single income.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and so I'm I think that is filling a an a gap that needs solution.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_06: I think there's also a conversation to be had about the algorithms because so much of this, the so much of these products purport to be like tech solutions.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_06: And there was this documentary a few years back called The Social Dilemma, and the chief ethicist from Google actually came on and talked about like well, it was not only him.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_06: Um, there was the gentleman who invented TikTok.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_06: There was another gentleman that was deeply involved in the programming of Instagram, and they were open about it.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_06: They were like, we do not let our own kids on these apps because they are designed to be addictive.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_06: So if these products are meant to cure loneliness, you would expect that the algorithmic programming is meant to cure loneliness, not to just keep people scrolling and scrolling and hoping and hoping and paying and hoping and scrolling.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_04: I have concerns anytime something is gamified, to be honest.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_04: And that is kind of what some of these apps are.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_04: They have been gamified.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um that is a red flag to me.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, that is concerning.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_04: There is this connection.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if it was in that or if it was in the book, but it is about the way we swipe.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_04: Swiping, the action of swiping is the same response that we get from pulling the lever on a slot machine.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_04: When we gamify these things, when you're trying to get points, when you're trying to get so many, when you're when it's been turned into a game, I do think it loses some of that purpose.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_04: I very much believe in uh keeping our young kids off of social and keeping our kids, you know, on the more tech-free side.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um that's you know, you and I have talked about that a lot.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_04: That's something I am fully subscribed to.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um my kids don't love it, um, especially as my oldest is getting older.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_04: Many of the friends at school now have devices that they don't.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_04: And they won't for a long time.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um, we have a jazzy house phone.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: You can have a board, investors, advisors, and still have nobody you can actually talk to about what is really going on.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: That is not unusual.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: That is the founder reality.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And we step in right there.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Tom Powell, and at the founder's office, we're proud to sponsor Women Talk Finance.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_06: But again, I have my Pen Powell's business card with her new house phone on it.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, you did.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_04: You got her business card, right?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I did a business card because again, that requires some level of personal.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_04: Now everything's digital.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_04: You you hold your phones together and you get contact information.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_04: There is something tangible about getting a card and teaching kids it's amazing, like how to have a phone conversation.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_04: How to have a phone conversation.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_04: It's wild watching someone learn how to have a conversation on the phone.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_04: And so I do wonder how much of that is adding to this loneliness.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_06: If you there's actually OpenAI and MIT, OpenAI and MIT Media Lab did a joint research project.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_06: This is about a year, a little over a year ago in March 25.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_06: And they found uh overall, highly daily, highly okay, scratch.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_06: Let's talk cleanly.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_06: Overall, higher daily usage across all.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_06: Modalities and conversation types across all modalities and conversation types, higher usage.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_06: So any platform, any screen, any digital, whatever correlated with higher loneliness, dependence, problematic use, and lower social socialization.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_06: I cannot roll all these words together today, so sorry.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_06: You know what I'm trying to say.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_06: I know what you're trying to say.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_06: Okay.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_06: I like that.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_06: So then the the solution would seem to be then we need higher socialization with our youth or with our peoples, period.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_06: All of us.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_04: But is it is somebody who would be looking for a gap would be looking for an opportunity, I should say, looking to market on an opportunity.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_04: This is increasingly this this could potentially be an increasingly larger and larger economic.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_06: The socialization market.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_04: Well, the socialization, but also the desocialization.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_04: Because kids now are more and more on their devices.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_04: People are more and more.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm saying unwiring that.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_04: This could be just a bigger and bigger, this could be a bigger battle we continue to fight, right?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_04: And counter to that, there's a bigger economy of opportunity for social connection.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_04: How great is it to put your phone down?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_04: Are are there opportunities to deeply connect with people?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking right now.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking really hard.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_04: Bring back what?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_06: Knitting clubs.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_06: Can't be on your phone while you're knitting.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_06: You're yeah, I know you're full-on serious.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_06: Are you in one right now?
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_06: Are you in a knitting club?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_04: My with myself.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_06: This is a now a true confessions podcast.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_04: You have to do my handiwork.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_04: You've received many of my knits that uh, you know.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_04: I have a favorite.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_04: I have a favorite.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_04: I've made you, I think, a hat and a s and a stocking, a mini stocking.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_06: So you made me a mini stocking for my cat.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I can't do when I'm when I'm doing that?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_04: I can't be on my phone.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_06: Yep.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_06: And you also can't make mini cat stockings when you're on your phone.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_06: No, cannot.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_06: It's impossible.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_06: I've tried.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_06: And there's priorities here.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_04: For sure.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_04: But I do think there's opportunity.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_06: Any, you know, let's talk through that.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_06: Let's give our what are what are like ways to do renewed connection with people?
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_06: How especially you and I are both introverts.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_06: I'm perfectly happy sitting at my house, talking to my cats, scrolling, making snacks, maybe going out once in a while to yoga.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_06: Other than that, I'm good.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_06: That's why I'm saying we need to distinguish between loneliness and alone.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_06: Because there are some of those things about lonely.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_06: If we were lonely, how would we approach opportunities for connection?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think club.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_04: A book club, book clubs, yes.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_04: And there's a way to be digital about it, but to increase connection.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_04: That's where I think there's like a slippery line here.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_04: It's just like lending.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_04: There's you need people need to have uh ability to borrow money.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_04: There is a line where it crosses into predatory, right?
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_04: And so again, I want to order things directly to my house.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_04: I don't want to go socialize with somebody at the grocery store.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_06: I want to go.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_06: Maybe that's about choosing choosing where you socialize.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_06: And there's a lot of, I mean, you can join a run club, you can go to the gym and just be a little more outgoing.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_06: A lot of it does require you to leave your house.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_06: A lot of it does, yes.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_04: And so I think all of us as consumers need to take a moment to think about what is it that, you know, power of your dollar.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_04: What is it that I'm purchasing?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_04: And is this serving me?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_04: Somebody on the other side is making money on this.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_04: Is this actually serving me or is this harming me?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_06: If it is serving you, great, then we celebrate that.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_06: We celebrate anything that serves you.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_06: It may not be serving somebody else.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_04: It may be actually really harmful to somebody else, right?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_04: The way they're using it.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_04: But if the way you're using it is benefiting you, great.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_04: But if you are in a space where you are experiencing loneliness and disconnection, I wouldn't seek more, and I'm not a therapist, full disclosure.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's pretty freaking obvious.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_04: Wouldn't it be fun to kind of try, though?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_04: It'd be really fun.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I play one on TV.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_04: If you don't think I'm like diagnosing everyone on shows, I'm like, oh God.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I yeah, all the time.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_04: But I would say if you're seeking connection, if you're feeling lonely, maybe one, get a real human therapist, not an app.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_04: Don't get it on AI.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_04: Don't get it through.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_04: I can't speak to the validity of these digital therapy groups.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_04: But if connection is something you're lacking, maybe get somebody in person.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_04: Get that hour commitment where you're seeing a human being and you're leaving your house and doing that.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_04: I'm a big fan of that.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_04: I think that is absolutely so important.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe don't use the self-checkout line at the store if you if you haven't interacted with a person all day.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe go to the checkout counter that's that has a person.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_04: Wait in line.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_04: Strike up a I don't know.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_04: Strike up a conversation.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, no, this is great.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_06: This is great advice.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_06: It feels like it's small little things, but it's actually game-changing.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I think we learned all this during COVID, right?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_04: You and I did very well.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_04: Very well.
• 28:16
  unknown: During COVID.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_04: Very well.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_04: I hate to say that because COVID was a horrific time.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_04: You and I, I remember there was a time where you were like, when was the last time you left your house?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I don't know.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_04: It had been a while.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_04: It had been like three weeks, and I was like, God, it's been a ma I was so happy.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_04: I was so happy.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, oh my god, this is great.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_04: My husband was not well.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_04: He was not well.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_04: He did not do well during that.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_04: He was really having a very, very hard time, and just he just he was like, it was like watching a hamster stuck in a ball.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_04: Like I kind of felt bad for him because I was thriving.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_06: I think most people, not many, many people suffer during that.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_06: Because at the end of the day, what is loneliness, right?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_06: You feel like no one sees or cares about you or understands you or hears you.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_06: You and I also during that time, we were still on Zooms, we still had connection, we were sending funny things, funny to us, funny things back and forth.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_06: So I didn't feel like I was in a vacuum being unseen, unheard, unnoticed.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_06: And I think most people, Zoom's probably not enough.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_06: They need a human interaction for that.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_06: So I think this tip even going to the grocery store, ask that person how they're doing.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_04: For sure.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_04: And just ask yourself if the things, if the solutions that are being presented to you, question them with a critical eye.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_04: Because somebody on the back end is making money on that.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_04: And that's great.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm fully supportive of that.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_04: But question if it's it actually a solution?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_04: Is it a solution for you or is it a solution for them?
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_04: Is you staying on this dating site for six months working, are you feeling better?
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_04: Are you making progress?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_04: Are you having great connections and going out on great dates and you're just having fun because you're meeting all these wonderful people?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_04: Then yes, that is a great solution for you.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_04: If it is tearing you apart and you are feeling worse about yourself, and if the gamification of it, of not getting swiped and not having messages and all of these things, if that is destroying you, that's not the solution.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_06: Yep.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_06: That's making me not to call out anything specific, but to call out something very specific.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_06: Facebook.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_06: I will not go on it.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_06: I do not like how I feel when I'm on it.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_06: I do not like how I feel when I leave it.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and there's a ton of very public information about that algorithm.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_06: It is designed for that.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_06: It can give you information that it knows will be emotionally like positive, or it can give you information that it knows will be emotionally negative.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_06: It knows you, it knows all of us, and it's gonna go for the negative one every time.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_06: You know why?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_06: Because you stay longer.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_06: You retention.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_06: It's retention and engagement, and yeah, it's it's you stay in there longer, giving them an audience, and it goes to their metrics.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_06: It's very actually complicated how they how all of the underlying algorithms work, but it's very technical, very detailed, very specific, very intentional.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_06: They want to give you content just to keep you scrolling, and it feels icky to me.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_06: So I won't tell you.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_04: If somebody's making money by making you feel worse, probably not the solution, right?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_04: Like that's just the reality.
• 31:42
  unknown: Yeah.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_06: So I'm also WTF, women talk friends and family about your family is your chosen people to birth people and your chosen people.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_06: Like friendship takes effort.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_06: So if you are feeling lonely, be intentional with your effort.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_06: Reach out to a friend or family member that you know sees you, understands you, is your point of connection.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_06: And be making effort.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes those people change.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_04: I have my deepest friendships.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_04: You babe, we've got a couple really good friends.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_04: I do not have a wide friend network, I've got a tight friend network.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_04: That all came about in you know, the last few years, really.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I'm not somebody who's like, oh, I've got all these friends from high school.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_04: That's not that's yeah, that's not me.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um and it's like having rich friendships has been so important in this part of my life.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_06: You've been very intentional about it.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: You have I'm trying.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um thank you for for that.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_04: Uh they are, I think there's something really beautiful about a friendship.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_04: There's no contract keeping keeping you together.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_04: There's no ties.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_06: I did have you sign one in your sleep.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_04: I yes, yes, I did.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_06: You're with me for life, you don't even know.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_06: Life, baby.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but like, there's no dividing of stuff, there's no mediator that comes in.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I think that's really beautiful about a friendship in that both of you need to show up and be there.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_04: And I really, really, really like that.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_04: And so um, again, be critical of that.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_04: And it's if you if you are lonely, seeking out authentic friendship is another great solution.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_04: But that's going back to Facebook, going back to Instagram, I think it can sometimes feel like everything feels unattainable and out of reach.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_04: Everybody else is like working together.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_06: Everybody else like you're missing out on your best life.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and so just yeah, just be recognizant of that.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_06: And know that you're not alone in feeling that way.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_06: This is stuff that's been very studied.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_06: There's a ton of resource out there on this.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_06: It's a it's a real thing.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it really is.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I think this this is uh a deeper conversation about just choice.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_04: Are we choosing to be alone or are we choosing to be lonely?
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_04: And you can be in a room full of people and still be lonely.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_04: Like you can you can be in your very um very full, like packed life of things and still not feel fulfilled there.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_04: And so I think there's there's more to that, right?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_06: I think it comes down to knowing yourself and again knowing that every human wants and needs and deserves to feel seen.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_06: And sometimes it just takes work to put yourself in the right place where you're truly seen.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_04: Don't sell your value to somebody else.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_04: Like, don't let your self-worth become somebody else's target.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_06: Somebody else's vote or target.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_06: That's a good way to say it.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_04: I don't I don't like the it.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_04: You can tell, I don't like the swipey.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_04: I the swipey thing bugs me.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's just, it's so gross.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's the grossest thing.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm sorry, it's an ex feeling.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_04: Somebody listening who's like, ah, we met on that.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_04: And and that's great.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not built for that.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_04: I can tell you right now, I am not built for that.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_06: I think a lot of us are not.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_06: And sometimes you just get lucky and have chance happen as well.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_06: But in general, I think a good takeaway is just be aware that the market didn't create this loneliness, but it certainly responded to this situation when where a lot of people feel lonely and it created a product, and that product is subscriptionized.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_06: And economies work because they get bigger, right?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, great point.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_04: All of us are part of this.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_04: They don't want the economy, they don't want the loneliness economy to shrink, they want it to grow, right?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_04: They want to quit hand.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_04: So that's keeping us isolated builds that economy.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_06: So this is such a good transition to next week's show.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_06: We're gonna talk about the product that claims it knows you better than the friends that you've stopped calling.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_04: Ooh, yes, yes, yes.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_04: Are we gonna ask our chats or our clauds to tell us who we are?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_06: I'm down to do that.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_06: That's a little preview for what the product is.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_06: Also, we should come up with a questionnaire that we have.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_06: Well, this is the friends you stopped calling.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_06: I if they're people you stopped calling, would they answer a phone call to do a questionnaire for you?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_06: Like we should have like you fill out a questionnaire on me, and then I'll fill out one on you, and then our AI should do the same thing and see who does it better.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_04: I like that.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, I really like that idea.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_04: That's pretty fun.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_04: That's a good one.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_06: Three questions.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_06: Three questions.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_06: How many do you want to do?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_06: Four, five questions?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, some number.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_04: Three to five to seven.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_04: Odds only.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, odds only.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_06: That feels right.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_06: We have just a slight touch of non-crippling OCD over here.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks for riding along as we workshop our next podcast episode.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_04: Feel free to workshop with us.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_04: Send us ideas as we put this together.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_06: We all we actually that would I would love to know how the audience has approached this issue.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_06: Whether you have struggled with loneliness or someone in your family or someone in your friend group has been open about it and struggled, like tips on how to overcome this without buying into this market that is trying to grow.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_06: And again, if you're tapping in and it works for you, we celebrate that.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_04: Totally.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_04: And for all my kings and queens, alone by choice, we celebrate you.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_04: That's alone does not equal only.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, I don't like that it's lumped into the same thing because I have a lot of people that they they cherish being alone and they've built their life around this.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, I will celebrate all of the things that make that easier because I've seen how hard it is for them to to to choose that because we just haven't built it that way.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_04: And so anytime there's a product that is helpful in that, I do not subscribe to this idea that we all have to buddy up.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_04: We don't need a line leader and our buddy to go to the bathroom.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_06: Like we can You said it here.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_06: You said it here.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_04: Go go on your go do things on your own.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, I am coming off of being stuck in a tin can with my with my family a bit, and it's sounding very luxurious to me, but um, but I do I do value that.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_04: So and if you disagree with anything we said, please feel free to to tell us.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_06: I won't see this is like just an open invite for us to give the enough to grip from I'm not gonna see it, so it's totally fine.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_03: Totally, I'll handle it.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_06: Hate mail coming in from Match.com.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_04: Just really fear.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, I gave Match equal shout out, and I don't know which one I did.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_06: I didn't good point.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_06: You did.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_06: I didn't, I wasn't fair.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_06: And I do have a very dear friend who met her husband on one of these apps, and they have a fantastic relationship, fantastic family, like wonderful, really wonderful.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_06: So, yes.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, I know I know that couples that I'm like, I don't know how you guys made this happen, but I am so thrilled that that algorithm was able to pull you two together because I I think it makes me believe in like souls meeting again and again in different lifetimes.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_06: I'll tell you separate episodes in a different that needs its own like four-hour special.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_04: I know, yeah, yeah.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_06: Good.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_06: Okay, so is this it for today?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_04: That's it, baby.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_06: Okay, bye.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_06: Like and subscribe.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_06: Join us next time.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_06: All the things, follow us.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_06: We're so good at this.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_06: Join, join the entourage of adoring fans.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_06: Okay, good.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_06: Bye.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_06: Bye.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_06: Okay, that was today's episode of WTF.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_05: If you laughed, learned something, or felt a little less alone, make sure you hit follow.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_06: And send this episode to a friend who might need it.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_06: Women don't gatekeep, especially not the good stuff.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_05: We'll be back next week with more real talk, more stories, and probably more over sharing.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_06: See you next time on WTF.