Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Curiosity Over Fear: Building Resilience in Horses and Humans | Kira Julius | EAW 52

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Curiosity Over Fear: Building Resilience in Horses and Humans | Kira Julius | EAW 52 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

• 0:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
• 0:02
  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
• 0:05
  author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
• 0:08
  Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
• 0:12
  thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
• 0:15
  I have a request.
• 0:16
  If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
• 0:22
  It really helps us get this work done.
• 0:24
  As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
• 0:27
  And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
• 0:31
  equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
• 0:35
  If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
• 0:40
  com.
• 0:41
  So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
• 0:44
  Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
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  I've got Kira Julius here who is German and Danish but speaks English
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  as you'll see with a slightly Australian accent because she has
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  had a very varied career within the equine and equine assisted world.
• 1:01
  And we are talking today about resilience resilience in horses, resilience in
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  people because I don't know if you guys have noticed, but in the last few
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  years, the conversations around trauma have reached a point where it leaves
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  many of us wondering, well, okay, but what about what happens after trauma?
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  Because one cannot, of course, spend some decades on planet Earth
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  without traumatic things happening.
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  But we also know that we're a resilient species and that horses are resilient.
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  And of course that's the great miracle.
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  And that is of course the, the, the world that we are involved in.
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  And I wanted to check in with Kira because she has been working in the sort of rehab
• 1:54
  and starting of horses as well as in the.
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  Human end of equine assisted stuff and has been very much involved in this
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  conversation and has some interesting insights to share I feel on this.
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  She was working in the, for quite a long time in the Stewart's Care equine
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  therapy center outside of Dublin which does excellent work and also was about
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  eight years with a rather legendary guy called Will Rogers in Germany, who even
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  though he's Australian, who works with and starts young and difficult, warm bloods,
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  and she has her own stories of course, as we all do with the personal side and
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  also has worked with us here in Germany with kids with autism and so on, and now
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  kind of has her own practice doing it.
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  So all round she's got interesting things to say around this business of resilience.
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  So, Kira, thanks for coming on.
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  Can you give us a little bit about who you are and how you
• 3:00
  got involved in this whole thing?
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  And then we can kind of go from there.
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  Kira Julius: Yes.
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  Meaning how I got involved in horses at all, or
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  Rupert Isaacson: in horses at all and mental health.
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  And quite assisted.
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  Well, yeah.
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  Kira Julius: Yeah.
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  So I would say horses at always is my sister's fault because I have, I
• 3:20
  have three sisters, but when I was younger, I have one older sister and
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  I had to do whatever she was doing obviously, and she started riding.
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  So I just started as well.
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  But then I got, I got very hooked even though I was very scared of the horses.
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  And I think it was probably because being with horses opens up, it
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  opens up another world for you.
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  You know, you get to be with another species, you get to understand how
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  they operate, how they see the world.
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  You get to ride them, which means you get to be taller and faster and do more
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  things that you couldn't do on your own.
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  And then there's a whole aspect of building a relationship with an animal as
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  magnificent as a horse, and all the things you learn about yourself on the way and
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  Rupert Isaacson: mm.
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  Kira Julius: So I think that's probably what kept me there.
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  Even though I was, I was experiencing a lot of fear, even as a child, but it was,
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  it was just never, never strong enough that fear to keep me, keep me away.
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  Rupert Isaacson: So that's interesting because, you know, for me, I remember
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  my early years with horses, there was just this great desire to be
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  with them, this great desire to do stuff and fear in certain moments.
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  Yes.
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  That was scary.
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  But I don't remember an overarching fear.
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  Were you always dealing with that overarching fear?
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  Kira Julius: Yes, I'd say I'd say so.
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  And I mean it, it was sometimes less and sometimes more depending on
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  the human environment and the horses I was with.
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  You know, especially when you're inexperienced, you want a secure horse.
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  And I didn't always have that when I started to learn to write.
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  But I also realized later the human environment also mattered so much Where
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  where, where I learned to write, there was a lot of yelling going on and a bit of
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  shaming, and if something went wrong, it was all your fault and all those things.
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  So I think if you already come in and you're a bit cautious, then those
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  things might create a feeling in you that it's just never quite safe.
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  Mm.
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  And that things going wrong or things getting bit activated
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  or whatever is, is never.
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  All right.
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  Rupert Isaacson: So then why did you decide to not just take a professional
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  track with this, but the professional track of starting large dangerous bouncy,
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  overactive warm bloods for, an ultra demanding German sport crowd who can
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  a, afford these hyper expensive horses.
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  And b have a sort, you know, are coming out of that same shouty Shay
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  world that you were talking about.
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  It's like, if you have this overarching fear, you, it's like you, you took all
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  the aspects of that and just said, okay, I wanna spend the rest of my life with that.
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  What made you do that?
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  Kira Julius: Yeah, I mean, I think there, there was an important step before that,
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  which was that when I was 16, I went to Tanzania for six months and worked
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  on a horse farm where I was working a lot with young horses and I was hacking
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  out a lot, riding along the beach a lot, taking people on trail rides.
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  And in my time there I got the experience that I was able to actually
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  do things and that I enjoyed the process of figuring out what to do.
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  They, they had so many horse books, so even though I didn't get a huge amount
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  of guidance there, I had all these books and I would go and, you know,
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  when it was hot at lunchtime, I'd read the books and then I'd go out and try
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  with the horses because I had a bunch of horses I could just play with.
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  But the environment in some way was so relaxed.
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  The horse were, they were all living out.
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  Most of them had grown up in the environment, so.
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  I guess I just experienced, there's so much growth in myself, so much joy also.
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  And I had this huge curiosity about where one could take this because I felt
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  that I was only scratching the surface
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  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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  Of,
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  Kira Julius: you know, what you could, what you could
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  learn in that life with horses.
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  And then I was always thinking, so I was telling myself, well, I'm just gonna take
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  a year off after school and then I'll go to uni and then, oh no, but I'll just
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  try this thing and then I'll go to uni.
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  You know?
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  So, but I, I took a job in a professional dressage state, just
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  as a grim first because I felt that I couldn't live with not trying it.
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  Mm-hmm.
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  I wanted to at least have tried to know what it is like to
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  be in the professional world.
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  And then getting in there again, you see so many things you don't know and
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  so many ways you can still develop.
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  And the man I was working for there, Morton Thompson, who's
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  a very good Danish trainer and gave me a really good foundation.
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  He then put me in touch with Will because he could see I
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  was, I was just interested in.
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  Yeah, the, the understanding of the horse, the horsemanship side of it.
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  I was always very interested in starting young horses and really wanted to, I just
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  wanted to know how to do it in a way.
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  Yeah.
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  So,
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  Rupert Isaacson: so would you say, would you say that the story of your
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  fear and overriding fear was that curiosity overrides fear basically?
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  Kira Julius: Yeah.
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  I would, I would definitely say so.
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  Yeah.
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  Rupert Isaacson: That, see, I think that informs where I want to go with this,
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  which is that, that there were two things that stood out for me for what you said.
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  So you said three.
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  So first thing is he said, well, I'm, I was very anxious, you know, I did, it
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  started 'cause it was my sister doing it, and then I got into it and then I
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  was a bit scared the whole time, but my curiosity, you know, made me keep going.
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  Yeah.
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  Then he very casually said, oh no, when I was 16, I went off to
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  Tanzania after blah, blah, blah.
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  Now my family's African, I was traveling around Africa from
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  my, yeah, mid, late teens.
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  I know what that entails.
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  And I was doing that as a young male.
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  As a young female going out there by yourself, and I know that you were
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  going to a place where there was some infrastructure and so forth,
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  but nonetheless, I mean, it's huge.
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  At 16 that doesn't sound very anxious to me.
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  And then you say, well then, yeah, okay.
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  I thought I'd try to be in the professional world, but it's one thing
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  to go into the professional world in a sort of quote unquote, normal
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  riding school or to go get your exams.
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  You know, it it, whether it's the German exams or the British exams or whatever.
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  And it's quite another thing to sort of go straight to the very, very,
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  very demanding, very perfectionistic world of those high level Sportage
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  places that you're talking about.
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  I know, I, I know the level of modern that, you know, that
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  you were going into there,
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  Tanzania, that that doesn't sound like anxiety, that sounds like something else.
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  Or how did you, as somebody riddled with anxiety or fear, find that your curiosity
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  could override it to that degree?
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  And then when you were there in those situations, did you not find
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  the super anxiety coming back in?
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  And if so, how did you deal with it?
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  Because I think that the, how did you deal with it, I think informs the rest
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  of where this conversation is going.
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  Kira Julius: Yeah.
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  So I mean, I, I would say I wasn't, at that point when I went to Tanzania
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  to do that, I wasn't with horses.
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  I wasn't as scared anymore because I had had different experiences in between,
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  like I had moved on from the place where I started to ride and I was riding other
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  people's ponies, just private people who had their NY stable and needed some help.
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  So it was much more relaxed.
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  It was, I didn't get in in trouble as much.
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  Rupert Isaacson: And you were by then used to riding a variety of horses
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  and thinking, oh, I, I can do this.
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  I can,
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  Kira Julius: yeah.
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  So go to a
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  Rupert Isaacson: rose, be strange horse and make it work.
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  Kira Julius: Yeah.
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  And I guess when you work through things and you find
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  out, oh, that actually worked.
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  Oh, this actually was okay.
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  The more you are in situations where things work out, then we're like, oh,
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  maybe the next one will work out as well.
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  But I think that is the big thing with, if you're anxious about
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  something, we, we tend to want to stop doing the thing at all.
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  And you go, oh, maybe I have to heal this thing.
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  Maybe I have to look into this.
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  Maybe you kind of can easily get stuck in a place where you think you have
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  to feel ready or you have to feel.
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  Not anxious at all before you can go out and do something again, when in fact,
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  the doing of the thing is what helps you with the anxiety because you kind
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  of allow yourself to have a different storyline rather than staying in the
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  one that your anxious thoughts predicts.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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  Kira Julius: You know?
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  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
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  Okay.
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  That I I, I, I think you're dead right with that.
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  At the same time, there you are 16 in Africa by yourself and you
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  Oh
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  Kira Julius: yeah, I was, yeah.
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  Rupert Isaacson: You know, I, I, I know what it is to be in Africa by
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  yourself as a teenager looking around going, oh, it's a big place, isn't it?
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  And oh, that's a huge spider on the back of my wall.
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  And you know, I hope these people don't kill me.
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  And and, and, and and then of course, going into that ultra demanding world
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  that you went into later with horses, what you must have had the freakouts come.
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  And I also know from what you've told me, you know, that there were some things
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  that happened within the family that naturally was a big confidence shaker.
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  Yeah.
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  And all of that going on at the same time.
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  Can you talk to us about.
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  The confidence shaker thing within the family.
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  'cause I think, I think, I think that's something that gives you a kind of a, a
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  gravitas and a credibility within this kind of work that says if you, if you
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  can face something like that at that age, it does give you, well, it, it kind
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  of destroy you or give you strength.
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  But then also when the inevitable, like, shit, what have I done?
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  Why am I here?
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  What have I let myself in for?
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  Moments happen and then it's kind of relentless because you are
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  there and you've gotta do that job.
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  Yeah.
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  What are the tools that you drew on that?
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  So, so, so can you just bring us to, if that's okay.
• 14:51
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
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  Rupert Isaacson: What happened at home and then maybe walk us through how
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  that affected what you then later did.
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  Kira Julius: Yeah.
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  So at home when I was, I was just 18.
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  My, my dad had a stroke.
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  And he was kind of, he was the rock of our family.
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  He was the one who
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  held everything together, organized everything.
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  He was a great, a great dad.
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  I also have a great and very loving mom, you know, not to say that, but
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  he was the one who brought a lot of stability and more so than I probably
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  realized before that happened.
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  And
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  Rupert Isaacson: that out.
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  Yeah.
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  Kira Julius: So yeah, it, it, it was a little bit like a lot of things fell
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  apart and suddenly that dealing with that situation was part of our lives.
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  And it meant,
• 15:51
  yeah, a distribution of tasks in another way.
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  It also meant, you know, of course you're worried about your family member.
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  It also meant spending time.
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  I remember on weekends when he was in rehab, just spending
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  weekends traveling to see him even.
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  And then there's this, all the things, even when he got back home
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  to, he couldn't get around our house in a wheelchair, so we had to move.
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  There was financial difficulties.
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  There were all sorts of things to sort out that suddenly kind of ripped that stable
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  foundation I felt I had for my life away.
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  And suddenly we were like, oh it can be quite vulnerable when
• 16:34
  something like that happens.
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  And also, it, it really tests the family bonds because you
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  get under a lot of strain.
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  And I mean, I'd say in some ways it has brought my family closer,
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  which I am, like, I'm grateful that we didn't fall apart over it,
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  you know, that we didn't lose the connections we have with each other.
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  But yeah, for a while there I was, I was worried about that too because
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  of course there's so much going on and everyone is struggling a bit and
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  it, yeah, it, it was a lot to deal with and it's, I mean, of course now
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  in the line of work where it goes into the therapeutic context, it
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  gives you a lot of reverence for what people are actually going through
• 17:27
  when, when things like that happen.
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  Yeah.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 17:32
  Because your dad was never quite right after he came back.
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  Right.
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  It's not like, well, okay, he came back in a wheelchair, but could then say,
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  alright, I'm back at the helm lads, you know, I am, things are back to normal.
• 17:44
  And you, you had what, three other sisters?
• 17:46
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 17:47
  Rupert Isaacson: And, and perhaps your mom's struggling with this
• 17:50
  situation, so having to step up into an early adult role.
• 17:55
  Talk to us a little bit about the changing relationship with your
• 18:02
  dad, because I think that that's a, a huge one for kids to go through.
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  If you are lucky as a child, I think you go through that when you are
• 18:10
  in middle age or late middle age yourself, and perhaps your parent
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  goes into decline in great old age.
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  And I think that's difficult enough, but I, but to see somebody in their
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  prime who is, as you say, the rock get.
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  Knock down and then really have to take that place for them.
• 18:32
  I know there'll be some listeners and some viewers who've probably been
• 18:35
  through something similar or other people who have not and can't imagine this.
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  But if we are all in this business of compassion and the, the seeking
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  of the tools of resilience as what we do professionally, I think this
• 18:51
  gives us an awful lot of insight.
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  Can you just free flow, like what it is at that age
• 19:01
  to go through that process just a little bit more?
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  Because I, I do think it would, I know it certainly helped me listening to
• 19:08
  your story reframe some of the ways in which I look at families and parents and
• 19:13
  so on that are coming to me, so, yeah.
• 19:15
  Kira Julius: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:17
  I mean, for me, of course there was, there was a lot of grief because it
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  felt like in some ways losing your dad, even though he was still there.
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  But the, that role of maybe a father figure I remember very distinctly
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  I had one situation where I had driven myself out to stable and I was
• 19:40
  participating in a jumping workshop and I knocked my knee really hard
• 19:47
  on a, on a jump as I passed it.
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  And then I remember getting in the car and it just hurting so much to press down
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  the clutch and then being like, oh, maybe like I can call dad and he can help me.
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  And then I was like, shit, I can't,
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  I have to actually get myself home here.
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  It, it puts you in a position where you
• 20:15
  more so sometimes feel that at the end of the day, you have to get
• 20:20
  yourself out of trouble when you're in trouble and you have to be responsible
• 20:25
  for yourself in a bigger way.
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  And I think I at the time also felt very responsible for
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  my younger sisters as well.
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  Which then funnily enough, because I got so into managing mode, doing mode
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  in some ways kept me from connecting with them on an emotional level during
• 20:52
  that time, which now I wish I had done.
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  And at the same time, of course I know that at that time I was
• 20:57
  just doing the best I could to kind of not fall apart myself.
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  'cause I felt like I had to keep myself together to a point where I could deal
• 21:10
  with all the practical things like my mom wasn't driving at the time.
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  So anything that involved.
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  Driving, which is, you know, shopping or my, one of my sisters was at boarding
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  school and needed to be picked up in Denmark sometimes and things like that.
• 21:25
  That was kind of, that was my role.
• 21:29
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 21:29
  Kira Julius: And it was maybe when I was 16, 17, not the role
• 21:35
  I had envisioned for myself.
• 21:37
  I had envisioned something that felt more free and at the same
• 21:41
  time, you just, I think at the end of the day, it's, it's love.
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  You know, you, you have the love for your family, so you do what you need
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  to do or you know, what to the best of your ability, what you can do too.
• 21:56
  Yeah.
• 21:58
  And support.
• 21:58
  Yeah.
• 21:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 21:59
  The, the, the financial side of things must have been really worrying.
• 22:05
  You know, when you're used to somebody being a rock, the main earner, et cetera,
• 22:09
  that's suddenly out of the picture.
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  There's a bunch of you, you are young, not yet working.
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  It affects life decisions.
• 22:20
  You know, do I work, do I go to university?
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  What do I do?
• 22:22
  Kira Julius: I, I do have to say though, my parents were, they were still with
• 22:27
  that, within that pretty good about, at that time, I, I still felt I had
• 22:33
  the freedom to say, I mean, I made my own money to travel after school.
• 22:37
  I worked so I could travel, but I, I never felt like I couldn't go.
• 22:42
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 22:42
  Kira Julius: Like I.
• 22:45
  Rupert Isaacson: I got it.
• 22:45
  I, I, I guess what I'm driving at is there's a level of anxiety of
• 22:50
  financial anxiety that comes in with a situation like that and which I
• 22:54
  think all special needs families have.
• 22:58
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 22:58
  Rupert Isaacson: And also this idea of being thrust into needing to take
• 23:05
  responsibility for financial management when you don't feel ready for it.
• 23:09
  Did that, did, did you end up to some degree becoming
• 23:15
  the family financial manager?
• 23:19
  Kira Julius: No, not at all.
• 23:20
  Rupert Isaacson: Did that,
• 23:23
  or were there skills that you had to learn for organization around
• 23:29
  that, that then have affected sort of how you've worked subsequently?
• 23:37
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 23:38
  I mean, so I didn't, I didn't, my mom did take care of that side of things
• 23:44
  and once my dad was kind of mentally able to, again, like they will talk
• 23:51
  about it together and she, you know, refer with him about things, but,
• 23:55
  so I, I didn't feel that I had to take responsibility for that, but I
• 23:59
  did feel that I had to strongly take responsibility for myself, you know?
• 24:04
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 24:04
  Kira Julius: I didn't know that if, if I go out and set up my life in a way.
• 24:09
  Where I can't support myself, then I do not have family money
• 24:14
  that will come up and kind of, you know, do that, do that for me.
• 24:18
  I, I did know that.
• 24:20
  So the awareness became more acute that you kind of have to, like, I,
• 24:25
  at that point, my sisters also, we kind of had to support ourselves.
• 24:31
  And if there was, as I said, if I, I wanted to travel so I worked so
• 24:37
  I could travel and then I organized the traveling so that it was cheap
• 24:42
  and I'd see if I could combine it with work and things like that.
• 24:46
  Yeah,
• 24:47
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
• 24:48
  Kira Julius: yeah.
• 24:50
  Rupert Isaacson: You then okay.
• 24:52
  You go into this very, very demanding end of the dressage world.
• 24:59
  Yeah.
• 24:59
  And I know enough about that area, VA endorf in Germany partly
• 25:05
  'cause we have a horse boy place.
• 25:07
  If anyone who wants to hear a great podcast, please go listen to Giddy
• 25:11
  Berghoff's podcast on Yeah, she's
• 25:13
  Kira Julius: amazing.
• 25:13
  Rupert Isaacson: She's, you know, one of the great geniuses of our work
• 25:16
  and we interviewed her a few months ago, so please go look at that.
• 25:20
  But Varo, and she's in Varon dph, but she's obviously an exception.
• 25:23
  Ndor is a hard place.
• 25:24
  Fend Orph is where the German Olympic team have their headquarters.
• 25:28
  It's where the fn, which is the.
• 25:31
  Equivalent of the British Horse Society or the US Equestrian Federation,
• 25:34
  all that has their headquarters.
• 25:36
  It's the sort of belly of the beast of sports riding as we know
• 25:43
  it really within Europe, I'd say.
• 25:46
  And it comes with all of the things attached to it that
• 25:49
  one would expect with that.
• 25:50
  And you go into that
• 25:53
  Kira Julius: why?
• 25:54
  Yeah.
• 25:54
  Yes.
• 25:54
  And
• 25:54
  Rupert Isaacson: why, why you, you have all this anxiety, you have
• 25:58
  these other, you know, it's like you couldn't have chosen a more rake
• 26:04
  yourself over the coals type, Yeah.
• 26:06
  Of environment to go into.
• 26:06
  Kira Julius: Well, the thing is, I kind of went into that, but not really
• 26:10
  because I mean, first we were in the Netherlands, actually, we, we were
• 26:14
  only in Germany for the last five or six years of my time with Will.
• 26:17
  But so yes, it was in that sports work that was a client base, but we kind
• 26:24
  of had our own little niche within it.
• 26:26
  Okay.
• 26:27
  That meant that there was some rules where we could write in a different way
• 26:34
  because it, the, the, the work with the horses was not about competing them.
• 26:41
  Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
• 26:41
  Kira Julius: It was about solving problems that our clients couldn't solve.
• 26:48
  Oftentimes, or starting horse.
• 26:49
  But even the horses we got into start would often be the ones that were extra
• 26:53
  sensitive or extra sharp or had already had a bad experience with being started.
• 26:58
  Things, things.
• 26:59
  I
• 26:59
  Rupert Isaacson: risk my case about anxiety.
• 27:01
  These are anxious, making horses in anxious, making situations with
• 27:05
  somewhat high anxiety clients.
• 27:07
  Okay.
• 27:09
  I like your, the thing about the niche, finding your niche within
• 27:12
  something, I think that's something we should actually return to a
• 27:15
  bit later in this conversation.
• 27:16
  'Cause I think that's important, this idea of how you find and carve out your niche.
• 27:21
  But nonetheless, how did you end up, do you think, to some degree you
• 27:27
  wrote yourself that script to say, because I feel so much anxiety, I'm
• 27:34
  going to deliberately put myself into situations like Tanzania or
• 27:38
  this, that constantly trigger it.
• 27:44
  Do you think if so, was that conscious or subconscious?
• 27:47
  And if so, was that because there was another part of you that thought, well,
• 27:52
  yeah, the triggering is the growth and was that conscious or unconscious?
• 27:59
  Kira Julius: Yeah, I mean I think there might have been some of that.
• 28:03
  I do remember that I often had the feeling of not wanting to
• 28:10
  get stuck in my comfort zone.
• 28:11
  Okay.
• 28:12
  And feeling that there was more.
• 28:16
  And
• 28:17
  Rupert Isaacson: but why?
• 28:17
  Why?
• 28:17
  Because, because, you
• 28:18
  Kira Julius: know, well, it's the growth, the growth thing, I think,
• 28:20
  and I think we all come to earth with our souls that kind of feel that
• 28:29
  there is some journey they wanna take, there's some growth they want to have.
• 28:33
  Yeah.
• 28:33
  And that we then in some ways, subconsciously, but I mean, I think
• 28:39
  the, the longer you go on, the more conscious it becomes, choose
• 28:42
  situations that put you Yeah.
• 28:48
  Put you in line for kind of learning experiences that will give you that
• 28:52
  growth that you are actually craving.
• 28:53
  Because yes, I was craving that, that growth.
• 28:56
  And I also felt, because you said, why didn't you just go
• 28:59
  to a riding school or whatever?
• 29:01
  I felt, no, I wanted, if I was gonna go into it professionally, I was
• 29:05
  like, then I wanted to do like the top tier thing because I felt, I always
• 29:13
  felt I wanted to have the fullest, deepest experience I can have of it.
• 29:22
  Because, you know, it's, I also feel it's, it's that sense
• 29:26
  of wanting to feel aliveness because don't we all want to feel
• 29:30
  Rupert Isaacson: the sense of
• 29:31
  Kira Julius: wanting
• 29:31
  Rupert Isaacson: to feel aliveness?
• 29:32
  I like
• 29:32
  Kira Julius: that alive, you know?
• 29:34
  And I always feel that.
• 29:36
  The, the richer your experience is, the more that life comes up in you,
• 29:41
  and the more you are curious about things, the more you dive deeply
• 29:47
  into things and wonder about them and just really live them, the more that
• 29:54
  vitality is gonna flow through you.
• 29:57
  Yeah,
• 29:58
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 29:59
  Vitality.
• 30:00
  Okay.
• 30:01
  Can you talk, talk to us a bit about the work that you did do there then
• 30:05
  in the Netherlands and Germany.
• 30:06
  I think that's quite fascinating for us as horse people.
• 30:09
  Can you just sort of take us through the highlights of that and the approach
• 30:12
  and where it got you and then how that drifted into the therapeutic?
• 30:17
  Kira Julius: Yeah, so I mean, I started out as just in a, in a grooming position.
• 30:21
  So I was just taking care of wheels, horses and the horses
• 30:25
  that he would have for training.
• 30:27
  And then I would, every opportunity I got, watch him work watch him teach
• 30:33
  and just get as much as I could.
• 30:36
  And then he gradually started teaching me, so I had a couple of lessons on his horses
• 30:41
  and then I said, what I'm, what I'm really interested in is starting young horses.
• 30:46
  And then what he did was he got, did I, yeah, I think the first
• 30:54
  time I helped with that, we got two mares and from a breeder together.
• 30:57
  And then we started them at the same time where we'd take
• 31:01
  them to the arena together.
• 31:03
  He would work with one, I would work with the other.
• 31:05
  We'd swap in between.
• 31:06
  He'd of course teach me and supervise closely because these are valuable
• 31:10
  horses from clients and Will has a high standard for the work and the, the product
• 31:17
  he puts out and the training he has.
• 31:18
  So of course, if, if I was gonna do it within that business,
• 31:22
  it was closely supervised and I learned, I learned so much.
• 31:26
  But essentially the work was based around, we would educate mainly dressage horses.
• 31:32
  So with the aim of being dressage horses that, you know, could
• 31:36
  be ridden competitively if that was what the owners wanted.
• 31:40
  But we always started with an approach that, well, you probably more see in
• 31:46
  the, in the horsemanship world where it's very much about understanding how horses
• 31:53
  operate, how they perceive the world and then using that knowledge and the feel of
• 32:01
  that to explain the human world and the job we expect them to do to the horses.
• 32:07
  So you break it down, make the communication really clear make
• 32:13
  sure that they, that they understand and that they feel safe within it.
• 32:17
  So we wouldn't just slap a saddle on, for example, we'd before teach them certain.
• 32:23
  Groundwork patterns that we could use to release tension in their bodies.
• 32:28
  So that, and then we'd get them used to being touched with different objects
• 32:33
  and then get them used to pressure around the belly and then saddle them.
• 32:36
  And then you can use all those tools that you have.
• 32:40
  Because when you have the communication with the horse, if they have a moment
• 32:44
  where they tense up with a saddle or they're unsure, you have a language
• 32:48
  you can use to tell them, do this with this tension, move it here, do this.
• 32:52
  So
• 32:54
  Rupert Isaacson: what are those?
• 32:54
  I think people would are curious.
• 32:57
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 32:58
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 32:59
  What are those exercises to release tension?
• 33:02
  Kira Julius: I mean, so it, it starts of course with being comfortable with a
• 33:07
  human, that's where you have to start.
• 33:09
  So you start with them being able to be touched and feel safe with it.
• 33:12
  And we kind of used a lot with the touching things.
• 33:16
  Something you call approach and retreat, meaning you approach somewhere if the
• 33:20
  horse is uncomfortable, you can retreat to a, a spot on the body where the horse is
• 33:27
  comfortable, you know, then you go further against you, you listen to the horse's
• 33:33
  signals and there's basic handling that they could listen to our body language
• 33:38
  for just walking with us going forward, backing up, turning, just staying with us.
• 33:44
  And then the main thing for, for letting go of tension was to.
• 33:49
  Be able to yield the shoulders out and to yield the hindquarters out.
• 33:53
  Mm-hmm.
• 33:54
  And we'd also teach a lot of them to relax in the neck, to lower the neck a bit.
• 34:01
  But that one for me is, is kind of, you don't wanna force 'em to do that.
• 34:04
  And often it comes out of the movements.
• 34:08
  So it's not just about doing the movement, it's also the quality of
• 34:12
  the movement, if that makes sense.
• 34:15
  Right.
• 34:15
  You know, it does, you can but it's a conversation and you just, you look
• 34:18
  for those places where the horse gets closer to the posture or the softness
• 34:24
  that you like, and you, if you release in those moments, they gradually
• 34:28
  always find, okay, in the softness is where I find the, the release.
• 34:35
  And then you, you build it.
• 34:36
  But if you constantly keep that principle in mind with whatever you do, then it
• 34:40
  just becomes stronger and stronger.
• 34:42
  Just become, becomes part of,
• 34:45
  Rupert Isaacson: I think, I think some people are familiar with the yielding
• 34:48
  of the shoulders and the yielding of the quarters, and some people are not.
• 34:51
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 34:51
  Rupert Isaacson: And then there are of course, many different ways to do this.
• 34:53
  And within the horsemanship world, one sees people doing this
• 34:58
  sometimes in a sort of a bossy way and sometimes in a very sensitive
• 35:04
  way and various points in between.
• 35:06
  How did you guys do that and, and what is the value of yielding the
• 35:09
  shoulders in yielding the quarters?
• 35:12
  Kira Julius: So, yeah, I mean the, the aim is of course, obviously you wanna
• 35:15
  use as subtle and aid as you can, but we all know that when, when you're
• 35:21
  working with a horse who doesn't know much that, but it's more, it's not about
• 35:24
  being tough, it's about being clear.
• 35:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 35:27
  Kira Julius: And often if, if the horse doesn't move off a small or smallish
• 35:31
  aid, you can still break it down more.
• 35:34
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 35:35
  Kira Julius: You know, 'cause oftentimes if they, if they so
• 35:38
  yielding the shoulders, we would yield them backwards and across.
• 35:42
  But the softness more comes from forward and across, I feel.
• 35:45
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 35:45
  Kira Julius: So if you, if you imagine a horse walking around, you're in
• 35:47
  a small circle, if you can get the nose a bit towards you and have them
• 35:52
  reach the outside front leg out more.
• 35:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 35:56
  Open up through the shoulder there, they will often find softness and a bend there
• 36:02
  that releases quite a bit of tension.
• 36:05
  But say a horse is really, really stuck, you often have to start with just, can
• 36:10
  I get lateral flexion while we stand?
• 36:11
  Can you even soften through, through that part in front of your shoulder?
• 36:18
  You know?
• 36:18
  Mm-hmm.
• 36:19
  So, yeah.
• 36:20
  And then the high quarter is usually, I find easier actually to move across.
• 36:23
  Especially once you can move the shoulders, because if you just take
• 36:27
  the nose around here a little bit more, we would, and the, those early
• 36:30
  stages do it with a lot of bend.
• 36:32
  Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
• 36:33
  Kira Julius: And if you just take the nose around you a bit more and you slow your
• 36:37
  own feet down and pivot more often, the headquarters will move out automatically.
• 36:43
  Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think those two movements really
• 36:47
  release tension from a horse?
• 36:51
  Just in your opinion, what do you think is going on?
• 36:53
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 36:53
  Yeah.
• 36:53
  I mean, for one it is because I think you get the horse's energy moving
• 36:58
  through the body in a way where it doesn't get stuck any anywhere.
• 37:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 37:02
  Because you have, you know, if you have them
• 37:04
  Rupert Isaacson: because they can't, they don't brace.
• 37:06
  Yeah,
• 37:06
  Kira Julius: yeah, exactly.
• 37:07
  But it, but they can still move.
• 37:09
  And that's for horses', it's often important that they can still move.
• 37:12
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 37:12
  Kira Julius: But, and you give them way to move where there is
• 37:14
  action or resistance and you're not yanking on them or anything.
• 37:18
  Mm.
• 37:18
  And then there's, I mean, what I've learned from you that all
• 37:22
  the, the laterals when, or that crossing of the midline produces
• 37:28
  the, the PDNF and the brain
• 37:31
  Rupert Isaacson: brain derived neuro terrific factor.
• 37:33
  Yes.
• 37:33
  Neuroplasticity.
• 37:34
  Exactly like martial arts and humans.
• 37:35
  Yeah.
• 37:36
  Yeah.
• 37:36
  Kira Julius: We like it.
• 37:37
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 37:37
  Kira Julius: But yeah, no, I think, I think that definitely
• 37:39
  does play a role there.
• 37:41
  And also that the more aware they become of their bodies, the more
• 37:46
  secure they feel in their bodies and where they are in space.
• 37:48
  And I think all those things tie in together.
• 37:54
  Rupert Isaacson: Plus it's leadership, isn't it?
• 37:55
  You know?
• 37:55
  Oh, I feel safe.
• 37:56
  Yeah.
• 37:57
  You know, I have a, I have a
• 37:58
  Kira Julius: leader.
• 37:58
  Yeah.
• 37:58
  And it's also that thing, especially young horses, often they will, if
• 38:02
  they're unsure of something, they will appreciate you saying, do this.
• 38:07
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
• 38:08
  Kira Julius: yeah.
• 38:08
  Rupert Isaacson: Like we do, honestly.
• 38:10
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 38:10
  Rupert Isaacson: Mammalian, mammalian, social mammal need for Yeah.
• 38:15
  Kira Julius: Provided of course that you have the trust and relationship,
• 38:18
  you know, if they see you as a threat, then that's not very helpful.
• 38:21
  Yes.
• 38:21
  They have to kind of see you as, as someone who helps, not as someone who
• 38:25
  kind of adds to the, to the stress.
• 38:27
  So that's where the relationship and trust is, is so important.
• 38:32
  Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're
• 38:35
  considering a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider
• 38:39
  taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs.
• 38:43
  Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original
• 38:50
  Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and
• 38:56
  developed in conjunction with Dr.
• 38:59
  Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists.
• 39:02
  We work in the saddle with younger children.
• 39:06
  Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.
• 39:11
  It works incredibly well.
• 39:13
  It's now in about 40 countries.
• 39:15
  Check it out.
• 39:16
  If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement
• 39:21
  method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be
• 39:24
  applied in schools, in homes.
• 39:26
  If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do
• 39:31
  at home that will create neuroplasticity.
• 39:34
  when they're not with you.
• 39:36
  Finally, we have taquine equine integration.
• 39:39
  If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a
• 39:42
  really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin
• 39:46
  in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult.
• 39:51
  So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this
• 39:54
  also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being.
• 39:59
  And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how
• 40:03
  am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they
• 40:06
  need, as well as Serving my clients.
• 40:09
  Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base
• 40:14
  absolutely gives you this..
• 40:17
  It, it's interesting just staying on, on these exercises of moving the shoulders
• 40:20
  and moving, moving hindquarters out.
• 40:22
  You know, this as you know, also is the basis of, of all the classical
• 40:26
  or the old classical horsemanship.
• 40:27
  Yeah.
• 40:28
  So it's all about the lateral movement, creating the straightness and the
• 40:33
  collection and the extension in a way that then is relaxed and soft.
• 40:38
  And then the horse can, like a concertina go from a hard run to
• 40:44
  a spin to a this, to a that, to whatever he needs to do, whether
• 40:49
  working cattle or fighting a bull or.
• 40:53
  Playing sport or hunting or just having fun, of course, themselves without a
• 40:58
  human, without a monkey in the field.
• 41:00
  And I've noticed too that when, particularly with young horses, when
• 41:04
  they are in their herds, they do a lot of the lateral play themselves.
• 41:11
  They do it less as they get older, but they still do to some degree.
• 41:15
  But it's all about circling each other.
• 41:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 41:18
  And I think people that don't breed and therefore don't get to see a
• 41:23
  lot of group play among adolescent horses sometimes miss that behavior.
• 41:31
  Just like if you don't keep stallions there's, there's
• 41:35
  behaviors you may not see.
• 41:36
  I have, I've heard people say, oh, Spanish walk, for example, it's not natural.
• 41:40
  It's like, well, you haven't seen two stallions circle each other
• 41:43
  before they decide whether to engage.
• 41:45
  Yeah.
• 41:45
  And that's of course exactly what they do.
• 41:47
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 41:48
  Rupert Isaacson: All of these things come from nature.
• 41:50
  But we of course have artificially or humanly affected horses by, you know, take
• 42:00
  taking off the, the balls if the stallions that changes the behavior massively, you
• 42:05
  know, and then of course, anytime you are.
• 42:08
  Adding a human to a horse.
• 42:10
  It's, it's a very different ball game to the, you know, the horse by itself.
• 42:13
  But back to the, this lateral movement and the shoulders
• 42:16
  moving and the haunches moving.
• 42:17
  The reason I sort of go on about that is the great trainer, Nuno Olivera
• 42:24
  Portuguese, 20th century guy who sort of synthesized all the dressage approaches
• 42:30
  into something very rational, said that the shoulder in which is effectively
• 42:35
  when the hindquarters go out 'cause it brings the shoulders to the inside and
• 42:39
  Kira Julius: mm-hmm
• 42:39
  Rupert Isaacson: they cross that inside and he says, it's the alpha and omega
• 42:43
  of horse training and it's the aspirin.
• 42:46
  He always said, it's the aspirin of horse training.
• 42:48
  It,
• 42:49
  Kira Julius: yeah.
• 42:49
  Rupert Isaacson: It seems to solve every problem.
• 42:52
  And I have definitely found that born out that for some reason that particular
• 42:57
  movement seems to bring both physical and mental, emotional, balanced equilibrium
• 43:05
  to a horse at the same moment, whether it's shoulders in or counter shoulders in.
• 43:10
  Both of them seem to work.
• 43:11
  And of course, the, what you described with take the shoulders away, that's kind
• 43:16
  of counter shoulders in and or shoulders out as people call it, and take the butt
• 43:20
  to the outside that becomes shoulders in.
• 43:22
  So it's just interesting how the, these things seem to create equilibrium,
• 43:29
  mental, physical, emotional in horses.
• 43:32
  They do it in nature, they.
• 43:34
  When we do it with them, it, it seems to work.
• 43:38
  I'm gonna ask you to talk a bit more about the kind of some of the crazy
• 43:43
  trust things you ended up doing with those horses in a minute, which I
• 43:46
  think puts it in context for listeners.
• 43:48
  But do you feel, just while we're on this subject, that people who are in
• 43:52
  the equine assisted world, most of us are getting donation horses in, right.
• 43:57
  They come with the stories they come with and to some degree we always restart
• 44:01
  them because it's a different job.
• 44:04
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 44:05
  Rupert Isaacson: These essential movements, do you feel that
• 44:07
  they're actually kind of crucial to the job in some way and Yeah.
• 44:12
  Can you just talk a little bit about why that is?
• 44:14
  'cause I think for newcomers to the field, that is useful information.
• 44:19
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 44:20
  I mean, I think for one, because of the, just the gymnastic value of it.
• 44:24
  'cause you wanna keep your horses healthy and sound.
• 44:27
  Especially if you take it into the more classical and handwork then where you can
• 44:31
  build it up to collection and you know, you can build the top line like that
• 44:35
  without putting a lot of strain on them.
• 44:37
  Because sometimes, you know, especially in therapeutic places, you might get
• 44:40
  older, horses you might get horses with.
• 44:41
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
• 44:42
  Kira Julius: Niles coming with
• 44:43
  Rupert Isaacson: injuries.
• 44:43
  Yeah, yeah,
• 44:44
  Kira Julius: yeah.
• 44:45
  But also from just a connecting with a horse.
• 44:51
  Also safety point of view I find, because if you can reliably do
• 44:57
  those exercises on the ground.
• 45:00
  If you ever get in trouble, you have something to work with,
• 45:04
  you have something to go to.
• 45:06
  Meaning say if you're with a horse and they, you have a client on
• 45:09
  your horse, I mean, you, we all hope that's never gonna happen.
• 45:12
  But there are horses you cannot guarantee that is never gonna happen.
• 45:15
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 45:16
  Kira Julius: But if you have that established, say the horse gets a fright
• 45:20
  from something behind him and you can just say, go into your shoulder in
• 45:25
  positioning or go into your soft bend where you do your counter shoulder
• 45:30
  in, or if that is really solid, that can often get you out of trouble.
• 45:37
  It has gotten me out of trouble when, say, with young horses or
• 45:42
  with more difficult as often horses who have had bad experiences.
• 45:47
  When you, you can make yeah, you can misjudge a situation and get into
• 45:57
  a position where the horse maybe has a strong reaction to something
• 46:00
  that you weren't anticipating.
• 46:02
  But when you have these exercises, just from a safety point of view, you can keep
• 46:07
  yourself and the horse very safe actually.
• 46:09
  Because when they get, especially into that shoulder in position, you are out
• 46:13
  of range of hind legs of also because the hind quads are moving away from you.
• 46:17
  Yeah, they're not, you know, they're not gonna kick
• 46:20
  Rupert Isaacson: you and the shoulders are not moving.
• 46:21
  Interestingly, even though the shoulders come in, they move around you, so
• 46:24
  you're not likely to get body slammed.
• 46:26
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 46:27
  Also, you still want that, that bend there.
• 46:30
  Right.
• 46:30
  So that means they're not walking the shoulder on top of you.
• 46:34
  Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
• 46:34
  Kira Julius: You know, if you've established that.
• 46:36
  And so, yeah, I have definitely been in situations where I was very grateful
• 46:41
  that we had those tools, even though as I say, you try to prepare so that
• 46:48
  it doesn't happen that you need to kind of really get yourself out of trouble.
• 46:53
  But it does, it does happen.
• 46:55
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 46:55
  Kira Julius: And yeah, I've just felt if you can get a horse into that
• 47:00
  shoulder in position, and they have learned that, oh, usually when I get
• 47:05
  to that position, then I soften my body and then that feels really good.
• 47:10
  They can learn to work through that emotion almost.
• 47:15
  And that situation.
• 47:16
  And you allow them to move.
• 47:18
  You're not saying to them, you can't move, you're just saying, move like this.
• 47:22
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 47:23
  I think the, the, the, I just wanna pick up on what you just
• 47:26
  said there, the allow, allowing them to work through the situation.
• 47:30
  That of course is the process of resilience, isn't it?
• 47:33
  The, the, the, the saying, okay, here I am in a freakout.
• 47:39
  Here is a tool that leads me through the freakout.
• 47:42
  On the other side of that freakout is resilience.
• 47:45
  And then you have a horse that's maturing emotionally that also finds that
• 47:50
  growth and that fulfillment in growth.
• 47:52
  'cause I think one, one often forgets that horses have that
• 47:56
  need just as much as humans do.
• 47:58
  So do dogs, so do all intelligent mammals.
• 48:00
  Right.
• 48:01
  Boredom is a real problem.
• 48:03
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 48:03
  Yeah.
• 48:03
  Rupert Isaacson: So it's interesting that these tools, which have clearly
• 48:10
  been used universally since like the Bronze Age, you know mm-hmm.
• 48:14
  Are still not necessarily universally adopted.
• 48:18
  Because, you know, when I was a kid they weren't really part of the conversation
• 48:23
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 48:23
  Rupert Isaacson: Of, of, of young horse starting.
• 48:25
  They weren't really, you know, it, it's interesting that now of course
• 48:29
  they are becoming more mainstream, but even within the therapy world,
• 48:32
  I think we, we don't see them being used as systematically as they could
• 48:38
  be for rehabbing, for maintaining.
• 48:41
  'cause it's also like a yoga, you know?
• 48:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 48:44
  If you're an older horse, it keeps you supple, it keeps you feeling
• 48:46
  good and keeps the brain active.
• 48:49
  Can you tell us a little bit about some of the.
• 48:53
  Somewhat extreme situations you then got with trust.
• 48:57
  I mean, I know you, you know, in front of these big crowds that some of the
• 49:01
  stuff you were doing with Will those big breaches just give us an idea about
• 49:04
  how far that work could go, because I think that gives us some insights.
• 49:08
  Kira Julius: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:09
  I mean, so we'll have the, he had the brilliant idea that you take a sensitive,
• 49:15
  sharp, warm lot and then you put very big plastic tarps in a big indoor arena and
• 49:22
  you put wooden sticks like you do wooden.
• 49:23
  Yeah.
• 49:23
  You put wooden sticks on all the corners and then you have a person and each
• 49:27
  corner, and then these people can create nice big waves with the plastic tubs and
• 49:34
  Rupert Isaacson: why not?
• 49:35
  Kira Julius: But, but, well, it, it was for him because at that, at that time,
• 49:39
  he was building his business around being able to help horses who were reactive
• 49:47
  or who had problems with feeling safe and functioning in the human world.
• 49:54
  So he was taking it to an extreme to showcase that you can help them feel
• 50:00
  safe enough with things that they can, you know, do all these, because you,
• 50:06
  you'd get it to a point where we'd bring this tarp up behind them in this big
• 50:11
  wave and it would land on their back.
• 50:12
  Okay.
• 50:13
  And he would get them well, because eventually we would cover the horse,
• 50:17
  so it'd have to land on the back first.
• 50:19
  And he would get it to a point where.
• 50:22
  The moment that top came down on the horse spec, the horse would be like, ha.
• 50:27
  Because they knew that,
• 50:29
  Rupert Isaacson: okay,
• 50:29
  Kira Julius: that was a moment of release and reward and that was, that was good.
• 50:32
  That was the, the top became the safe zone, which means that Okay.
• 50:37
  ' Rupert Isaacson: cause
• 50:38
  Kira Julius: they also, when they go out, they have to deal with
• 50:39
  the crowd as well and everything.
• 50:40
  Mm-hmm.
• 50:41
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 50:41
  Kira Julius: And we did prepare them for that, but it's very difficult to
• 50:44
  prepare them for that kind of atmosphere.
• 50:47
  But in a funny way that I think that for a lot of them then the big tarps
• 50:51
  helped because they were like, oh, this thing, I know this thing I'm safe in.
• 50:56
  I know exactly what happens.
• 50:58
  And I would say it actually in some way might have helped some of them
• 51:03
  cope with everything else that was going on because it was a clear,
• 51:08
  clear task, a clear thing to engage with that they were familiar with.
• 51:14
  But I mean, getting, getting them there was not always straightforward.
• 51:18
  I mean, also Will, has, has a knack for not choosing the
• 51:21
  easiest horses to deal with.
• 51:23
  I have to say.
• 51:26
  I sometimes say we should have filmed like the first time he introduced them to
• 51:31
  the top and then the result because but also again, it was about he figured out
• 51:36
  a system of breaking it down, you know?
• 51:39
  Mm-hmm.
• 51:39
  You'd start with a smaller tab, obviously.
• 51:41
  Rupert Isaacson: You
• 51:42
  Kira Julius: could in the beginning just fold it together.
• 51:43
  So they just had to step across.
• 51:45
  They didn't even have to step on it.
• 51:46
  Then you fold it out, you make it gradually bigger, then you
• 51:49
  move to the, to the big one.
• 51:51
  In the beginning they just walk on it.
• 51:54
  Then you get people on the corners to just wave it a little bit.
• 51:58
  But you can be strategic, meaning you can wave it.
• 52:02
  And then as the horse comes towards it, you stop waving it.
• 52:05
  So you are, the horse always feels, oh, when I go towards it, it goes away.
• 52:10
  And you just gradually, gradually build it.
• 52:13
  It's really, it's, it's like with all horse training, it's about it.
• 52:16
  Seeing how you can break it down to make it achievable and
• 52:22
  to explain it step by step.
• 52:24
  Rupert Isaacson: You know, one of the things which we use, you
• 52:28
  know, this in horse Boy a lot is effectively bomb proofing.
• 52:33
  We, we haven't done it for a while 'cause our horses are now so solid, but we
• 52:37
  used to do a ton with tops and I'm just sort of remembering we do exactly that.
• 52:41
  I used to feed the horses on the tops.
• 52:43
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 52:43
  Rupert Isaacson: And then have people exactly as you say, sort of crinkle
• 52:47
  them, make little waves out of them.
• 52:49
  And then eventually it would get to a point where we could wrap a horse in
• 52:52
  a top while he was eating and he would be like, they'd hear the crinkle of
• 52:56
  the top and they'd just come running.
• 52:58
  And, also the training of tricks.
• 53:00
  I remember, you know, a horse that came in.
• 53:03
  He became one of the most solid horse boy horses we ever had, but he was
• 53:07
  a wild court mustang, and I just took him off the hands of one of my
• 53:10
  son's ex babysitters just because she couldn't deal with him and like he
• 53:14
  really couldn't be dealt with at all.
• 53:16
  And he just get up on his high legs and box at you and what
• 53:19
  am I gonna do with this horse?
• 53:20
  Why did I get this horse?
• 53:21
  And then it was one of the first horses that Iliana and I ever collaborated on.
• 53:25
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 53:25
  Rupert Isaacson: And I remember, so I thought, well, like we can't get on him
• 53:28
  because he just stands on his hind legs.
• 53:31
  So I told him to bow and then I would just get on him when he bowed.
• 53:35
  And then it's funny, then he'd get up, he'd be like, oh, well you are here.
• 53:38
  You know?
• 53:38
  And then with the, the hind leg stuff with I, I remember thinking,
• 53:43
  well, okay, you are there.
• 53:45
  I don't want to stop you from being, I don't wanna fight with you.
• 53:47
  Why don't we do stuff while you are there?
• 53:50
  And for me, that was all quite new.
• 53:53
  So I just started doing all kinds of behind leg tricks with him.
• 53:58
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 53:58
  Rupert Isaacson: And then after a while he's like, well, this is
• 53:59
  kind of work, you know, maybe I'm losing my motivation to use this as
• 54:03
  a, as a, as a, as a, an invasion.
• 54:07
  And then he didn't much fancy trailers, which wasn't surprising
• 54:12
  'cause he probably had a terrible time with them when he was caught.
• 54:15
  So I remember teaching him Spanish walk on a ramp and, and so that he could.
• 54:20
  Get a treat when his feet made a certain sound on the ramp and then he would,
• 54:24
  you could Spanish walk him into trailers when you couldn't walk, lead him.
• 54:28
  And what was interesting for all of that with me was that it was a way of sort of
• 54:31
  thinking around problems and thinking, well, this is where the behavior is.
• 54:35
  How do I go with it?
• 54:37
  Not against it.
• 54:37
  How do I avoid a fight?
• 54:39
  And what we often found was that horses that seemed.
• 54:44
  Not good prospects, interestingly, became very good professionals because
• 54:49
  somehow we engaged that curiosity.
• 54:53
  So I then started a little bit of work with a guy called Alan Pogue,
• 54:56
  who listeners and viewers should check out Alan Pogue, imagine a horse.com,
• 55:02
  who's a master trick trainer.
• 55:03
  And I realized that trick training was just such a great thing because it
• 55:07
  crossed the line with bomb proofing.
• 55:09
  It constantly took the horses into these new situations.
• 55:12
  It engaged their curiosity.
• 55:14
  It engaged perhaps parts of the body they wouldn't normally be using.
• 55:17
  Like picking up a pair of socks and handing it to you or whatever.
• 55:20
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 55:20
  Yeah.
• 55:20
  Rupert Isaacson: And and then, you know, a horse that's a bit mouthy suddenly
• 55:22
  gets something to do with their mouth.
• 55:24
  And then,
• 55:24
  Kira Julius: yeah,
• 55:24
  Rupert Isaacson: that stops being a problem because you give it something
• 55:26
  else to do and blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 55:28
  And it, it made me do a sort of complete rethink.
• 55:31
  Which I think really helped me, not just oddly enough with the preparation
• 55:35
  of horses, but with how I would then relate to behaviors in the kids.
• 55:40
  Because I would then say, oh, okay, you are here.
• 55:44
  Your teacher and your family naturally want you there, but here is where you are.
• 55:50
  Kira Julius: Mm-hmm.
• 55:51
  Rupert Isaacson: So why don't we meet you where you are and find
• 55:53
  what's kind of cool about endlessly splashing or spinning or spitting.
• 55:59
  Yeah.
• 55:59
  Or,
• 56:00
  Kira Julius: yeah.
• 56:01
  I think it's a bit, it's a bit about seeing possibilities
• 56:04
  rather than problems, right?
• 56:05
  I think that's what you're describing.
• 56:07
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 56:08
  Kira Julius: That
• 56:10
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 56:10
  So, so you are, there you are, you are.
• 56:14
  Presenting these sharp, warm bloods at breed shows in front of tens of
• 56:17
  thousands of people flapping huge top pullins all over the place.
• 56:22
  And the horses
• 56:22
  Kira Julius: like that was a professional top handler.
• 56:24
  Rupert Isaacson: And, and this is, you know, as you say, sort
• 56:28
  of top tier industry stuff.
• 56:30
  What makes you then want to shift towards the therapeutic line?
• 56:36
  Like what, how does your curiosity take you that way?
• 56:40
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 56:41
  Rupert Isaacson: I mean, or were you always curious about it?
• 56:44
  Kira Julius: No, I don't think I always was.
• 56:47
  I was a bit with the horses.
• 56:49
  I was als always interested in helping horses feel better,
• 56:53
  whether that be physically or mentally or yeah, in whichever way.
• 56:57
  But I think the interest in therapeutic work with humans also came through my own.
• 57:06
  I kind of got through, I had another bout of bad anxiety when I was
• 57:13
  working at Wills and I think caused by, there is a lot of pressure
• 57:21
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
• 57:22
  In that
• 57:22
  Kira Julius: way to produce a good job just, just by being in that industry.
• 57:28
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 57:28
  Kira Julius: And there's often a conflict, especially when you're training horses
• 57:31
  for clients between wanting to be.
• 57:35
  Doing right by the horse.
• 57:37
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 57:38
  Kira Julius: And at the same time, meeting the client's ex expectations
• 57:41
  of where the horse should be after a certain amount of time.
• 57:44
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 57:45
  Kira Julius: That I found really difficult to deal with.
• 57:49
  And then I think I really got into, and I don't really know how or why, but a
• 57:57
  thing that I think is, is also happening a lot still today, where you feel that
• 58:02
  the desired state for yourself and the horse is calm, you know, that it has to be
• 58:09
  calm, that no one can react to anything.
• 58:13
  No one can have a reaction, nothing can ever happen.
• 58:16
  That it's a bit out of line.
• 58:18
  And naturally in that line of work, always something happens.
• 58:23
  You know, it's just part of it.
• 58:25
  But at that time I remember feeling that if a horse had a spook at
• 58:30
  something or which, you know, they're horses, they will speak.
• 58:34
  Or if say a young horse had an initial negative reaction to the
• 58:38
  saddle or whatever, that I would feel that I had failed so massively and
• 58:45
  that somehow it wasn't all right.
• 58:49
  So I think those things combined, and we can get back to how I view that now, or
• 58:53
  I can tell you now how I view that now.
• 58:55
  Mm-hmm.
• 58:56
  But, I got into a spiral of being anxious.
• 59:01
  But I also think, again, that there was a certain growth I
• 59:04
  wanted and I wasn't taking the steps to go towards that growth.
• 59:09
  And I know that for me, my body, my system, everything then starts
• 59:14
  speaking up and saying, hello, are you, are you gonna do something?
• 59:18
  And then if I don't, it, it throws worse stuff at me.
• 59:22
  Yeah.
• 59:22
  But yeah, I got, I got to a point where I, I stopped actively training horses.
• 59:28
  I, I would almost like get dizzy if I got on a horse.
• 59:33
  I had huge trouble driving in a car, and I don't, again, I don't think it's a car.
• 59:40
  I think it's, it's that fear of doing something wrong or failing or
• 59:46
  letting myself down, you know, that was, that was going on massively.
• 59:50
  And yeah, I think just living through that and looking for solutions for
• 59:57
  that, I got into, you know, I, I, I sought out healing for myself naturally
• 1:00:03
  and going through that process.
• 1:00:04
  Really.
• 1:00:07
  Yeah.
• 1:00:07
  Ignited some desire in me to pay that forward and, you know, help people.
• 1:00:14
  And also, again, chase that growth that comes with engaging with those.
• 1:00:20
  Things.
• 1:00:21
  Rupert Isaacson: It's very interesting what you said about calm.
• 1:00:24
  Let's go with that.
• 1:00:25
  And then before we go on with your story, it, I've noticed this too, and
• 1:00:29
  this has become, I say more and more a conversation in the last five years.
• 1:00:36
  I've noticed, maybe it's since COVID.
• 1:00:38
  This idea that if you are triggered away from calmness, it's like a disaster.
• 1:00:46
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:00:46
  Rupert Isaacson: And there's always been a part of me that,
• 1:00:50
  well, not a part of me, a large,
• 1:00:54
  maybe all of me that says, no, no, no, hold on.
• 1:00:56
  Triggering is what you're on planet earth for.
• 1:01:00
  I mean, we're hunter gatherers.
• 1:01:02
  We face elephants, we face lions, we face droughts, we face pandemics.
• 1:01:09
  We face floods.
• 1:01:09
  We face strong nature.
• 1:01:12
  And also in the, you know, shamanic traditions of the indigenous peoples
• 1:01:17
  that I've spent, been lucky enough to spend time with that kind of high
• 1:01:23
  emotional and physical drama plays out in the healing practices as well.
• 1:01:28
  And, but it's the calm is what comes on the other side of it.
• 1:01:34
  But you don't try to defend the calm because you are supposed to react
• 1:01:40
  appropriately when there is a threat.
• 1:01:43
  So that when there's a threat, you don't freak out and get killed.
• 1:01:48
  And you know, it's so interesting.
• 1:01:50
  One really good example of that would be I was walking once with
• 1:01:55
  a man called Juman Lib, who was a Bushman, who I was very close to.
• 1:01:59
  And, but really interesting man, because he also could fully
• 1:02:05
  function in the western world and was also a human rights advocate.
• 1:02:08
  And somebody, he'd really grown up in the bush.
• 1:02:09
  And we were walking one day in the Central Kalahari game reserve, which
• 1:02:13
  very, very wild area of Botswana.
• 1:02:15
  We ran into two big male lines.
• 1:02:17
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:02:17
  Who
• 1:02:18
  Rupert Isaacson: got up and were like, who are you?
• 1:02:20
  And there's, you know, no way we could have run to a tree or, and I'm like,
• 1:02:24
  all right, Jamanda, what do we do now?
• 1:02:26
  And he's like, Rupert, the lions are our cousins.
• 1:02:32
  I will show you.
• 1:02:33
  We will walk with them.
• 1:02:35
  And he had this whole way of addressing them and we walked parallel with them
• 1:02:41
  and they walked parallel with us while he talked to them and engaged with them
• 1:02:46
  in a way that he'd been taught to do.
• 1:02:48
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:02:48
  Rupert Isaacson: And at a certain point they sort of probably got
• 1:02:52
  bored with us and walked away.
• 1:02:54
  And afterwards I said to him, weren't you scared?
• 1:02:59
  'cause I certainly was, you know, yeah.
• 1:03:00
  I need to change my trousers now.
• 1:03:02
  And he says, Rupert, we walk with fear.
• 1:03:06
  But fear does not override.
• 1:03:09
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:03:09
  Rupert Isaacson: Fear simply informs, but you know, when you must react to
• 1:03:16
  fight or flight, but it's not very often.
• 1:03:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:21
  And that, so therefore, when you walk through the bush with a bushman
• 1:03:24
  where there's just constantly stuff out there that is thinking about
• 1:03:27
  eating you you never get eaten because all their reactions are appropriate
• 1:03:33
  because they don't have an expectation that fear should not be, or anxiety
• 1:03:37
  should not be part of the equation.
• 1:03:39
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:03:39
  Rupert Isaacson: But that it also nev it doesn't negatively affect your quality of
• 1:03:42
  life because you simply get good at it.
• 1:03:46
  Yeah.
• 1:03:47
  So you are aware, not freaked out.
• 1:03:50
  And he showed me some really interesting things to do and I, I think horse
• 1:03:55
  people actually have a predisposition for this because obviously when you're
• 1:03:58
  up on a horse, you are constantly in danger and at a certain point we just
• 1:04:01
  kind of get okay with that, you know?
• 1:04:04
  And where we can be scanning for should we be reacting more or less to something.
• 1:04:11
  But we're always aware, you know, we know that if you let your
• 1:04:15
  guard down completely, that's when you end up on the floor.
• 1:04:17
  So I think we do have a predisposition for this, but he showed me some
• 1:04:20
  really interesting exercises.
• 1:04:21
  Like he said, Rupert, always listen to your gut.
• 1:04:23
  If there is you, you can, you can try these as experiments
• 1:04:27
  with dangerous animals and see.
• 1:04:31
  Where your, where, where your safety is and where your safety isn't.
• 1:04:35
  So I probably did something a bit silly, but I used to go for little walks at
• 1:04:40
  night in Texas, barefoot knowing where there were, there were snakes down there.
• 1:04:46
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:04:46
  Rupert Isaacson: And I would take a very short way and just feel in my body snake.
• 1:04:52
  And he said, if you ever feel that Rupert, it's there.
• 1:04:54
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:04:55
  Rupert Isaacson: And then he said, make friends with it.
• 1:04:57
  And then ask yourself, do I retreat?
• 1:05:00
  Do I go round?
• 1:05:02
  Do I stop?
• 1:05:03
  Do I go forward?
• 1:05:04
  And I played with that a little bit.
• 1:05:07
  And two times, I think it really saved my life One time I did something very
• 1:05:12
  stupid, wandered away from the fire thinking I knew my way to my tent
• 1:05:15
  because I'd camped there before and the guys at the, at the bushman at the fire
• 1:05:19
  said, shall we walk you to your tent?
• 1:05:22
  And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.
• 1:05:23
  Of course, I totally got lost within, because these
• 1:05:25
  thickets, Kalahari is a thicket.
• 1:05:27
  Yeah.
• 1:05:28
  And you, you, there's no landmarks and you know, so you, you get lost very fast.
• 1:05:31
  And I blundered straight into a big herd of elephant at night.
• 1:05:34
  And if you, if you walk into them physically, they'll kill you.
• 1:05:37
  They'll yeah.
• 1:05:38
  Walk you with the trunk.
• 1:05:39
  Yeah.
• 1:05:39
  So I, I just went into that thing of after I beat myself up for being
• 1:05:44
  so stupid what do I need to do here?
• 1:05:46
  Making contact with them?
• 1:05:48
  And the answer was, make yourself small, sit on the ground and
• 1:05:53
  say that you are no threat.
• 1:05:56
  And wait.
• 1:05:57
  So I did that and I was surrounded for quite a while.
• 1:06:01
  Kira Julius: Mm-hmm.
• 1:06:01
  Rupert Isaacson: And then at a certain point they moved off and I was like,
• 1:06:04
  another time I was walking towards a camp and I heard the banging and,
• 1:06:10
  and shouting and banging of pots.
• 1:06:12
  And, and that's often what people do when there's a snake.
• 1:06:15
  Yeah.
• 1:06:15
  A bad snake.
• 1:06:16
  And they want to scare it away.
• 1:06:18
  As I'm walking towards that noise thinking, I wonder if I should
• 1:06:22
  be walking towards that noise.
• 1:06:23
  This huge black mamba about 10 foot long, which is the only really
• 1:06:27
  aggressive poisonous snake there.
• 1:06:31
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:06:32
  Rupert Isaacson: And if it bites you, kind of, that's it.
• 1:06:34
  Comes shooting up the trail towards me, and I like, what do I say?
• 1:06:41
  It's, it's, don't run be a tree.
• 1:06:46
  And I was like, I'm a tree.
• 1:06:48
  I'm a tree and I'm a tree.
• 1:06:49
  I'm not a, I'm not a warm blooded thing.
• 1:06:52
  And the thing went over my foot.
• 1:06:55
  Kira Julius: Oh.
• 1:06:56
  Rupert Isaacson: And you know, later, after, you know, 10 diaper changes later,
• 1:07:00
  you know, I was very grateful for what Jumanda had said, but I think horses
• 1:07:04
  have taught me a lot of that earlier.
• 1:07:07
  This thing about everything's supposed to be calm, you're
• 1:07:09
  never supposed to be triggered.
• 1:07:11
  Does this actually serve us?
• 1:07:14
  Is this actually weakening us, not strengthening us?
• 1:07:20
  What.
• 1:07:21
  You've been treading this path with anxiety, quite heavy anxiety,
• 1:07:28
  looking for solutions.
• 1:07:29
  What are your thoughts?
• 1:07:31
  Kira Julius: I don't think it serves us at all because it's not our natural state.
• 1:07:38
  And as you say, we are supposed to be, but we are supposed to be in
• 1:07:43
  different nervous system states.
• 1:07:45
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:07:45
  Heart rate variability basically.
• 1:07:47
  Right.
• 1:07:47
  Up and
• 1:07:48
  Kira Julius: down.
• 1:07:48
  Yeah.
• 1:07:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:07:49
  Kira Julius: And, and also though, we are supposed to be able to, as you say, walk
• 1:07:55
  with fear because what I feel is now just because I feel anxious about something
• 1:08:03
  doesn't mean I can't do it and doesn't necessarily mean I shouldn't do it.
• 1:08:07
  But that's where the gut feeling also comes in.
• 1:08:09
  'cause I use that to, because there's fear that is there to keep you from
• 1:08:15
  doing the thing that will harm you.
• 1:08:18
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:08:18
  Kira Julius: And there's fear, especially in modern society.
• 1:08:21
  There's fear that is just loopy thoughts and stories that are not actually true.
• 1:08:28
  And I guess my gut feeling is what helps me discern between them.
• 1:08:34
  Because often there's lots of things where I feel that I
• 1:08:38
  like to do that I want to do.
• 1:08:40
  So I, I love traveling.
• 1:08:41
  I, when I lived in Ireland, I went for quite a few road trips and stuff.
• 1:08:46
  Every morning when I was about to go for that road trip that I had planned
• 1:08:51
  and that I was really looking forward to, I would be so scared and I'd feel
• 1:08:56
  like, no, I'm just gonna stay in bed.
• 1:08:58
  But then by that time, I, I know myself well enough to go, that's fine.
• 1:09:05
  You just move.
• 1:09:07
  That's, that's what helps me because I know that there's
• 1:09:10
  Rupert Isaacson: like the horse Move your feet.
• 1:09:11
  Yeah.
• 1:09:11
  Kira Julius: You move.
• 1:09:12
  So I have to just physically, I say put my feet on the ground.
• 1:09:17
  I get up, I walk over here.
• 1:09:19
  I, you know, and, and that's the thing.
• 1:09:22
  To not get frozen.
• 1:09:24
  Rupert Isaacson: To not get frozen.
• 1:09:25
  Interesting.
• 1:09:25
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:09:26
  But, but you have to in that situ, and that's a hard thing.
• 1:09:29
  The hard thing is to learn to move with that fear, because we've been taught in
• 1:09:35
  some ways that when you feel that fear, that means you shouldn't do the thing.
• 1:09:39
  But that's not always true.
• 1:09:40
  Yeah.
• 1:09:41
  That's not always true.
• 1:09:42
  Rupert Isaacson: No, it's frequently not true.
• 1:09:44
  I mean,
• 1:09:44
  Kira Julius: yeah.
• 1:09:45
  Rupert Isaacson: Let's bring it back to, you know, jumping horses.
• 1:09:48
  As, you know, when you're on a horse going into a jump,
• 1:09:51
  there's that moment of commitment
• 1:09:53
  Kira Julius: mm-hmm.
• 1:09:53
  Rupert Isaacson: Where you have up until a certain point where you can say,
• 1:09:57
  it's a bad idea, I'm gonna pull out.
• 1:09:59
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:10:00
  Rupert Isaacson: And then there's a, a certain point where it,
• 1:10:03
  it's a very bad idea to do that.
• 1:10:05
  Yeah.
• 1:10:05
  And that would probably result in an injury more so than if you took a fall.
• 1:10:11
  So there have been, there are times when you jump and you realize at
• 1:10:14
  the moment of commitment that it's perhaps not gonna be good, but then
• 1:10:20
  you can hopefully not resist the fall tumble, bounce and pop up rather than
• 1:10:35
  resist it land
• 1:10:38
  harder.
• 1:10:40
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:10:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Or at that last moment of commitment as the horse
• 1:10:44
  is giving that great rush into the air, try to oppose it and end up
• 1:10:50
  bringing your horse down or whatever.
• 1:10:51
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:10:52
  Rupert Isaacson: You know, so
• 1:10:52
  Kira Julius: I would also say actually the most trouble I've gotten in when
• 1:10:57
  riding or whatever, is when I've, something has happened, but it wasn't
• 1:11:03
  necessarily the thing happening that was a problem, but it was me resisting
• 1:11:07
  the horse doing what they were doing.
• 1:11:09
  So rather than following the horse through what they were going
• 1:11:13
  through, I would resist it and try to, you know, jam up on it.
• 1:11:17
  And that's where they're not you, you make it worse doing that.
• 1:11:24
  Also, I wanna actually bring this back to, to the horses briefly, because,
• 1:11:29
  you know, I was saying, I, I was, I was feeling like they couldn't have.
• 1:11:34
  A reaction, and we talked about this yesterday, where I now feel that I,
• 1:11:41
  a horse is going to spook a horse is going to react to things, and
• 1:11:45
  that in itself is not a problem.
• 1:11:50
  And that the, the moment that determines whether you're gonna be
• 1:11:53
  right or not is when, when they meet.
• 1:11:56
  Because often when you're with them, they will meet your aide in some way.
• 1:11:58
  They will meet, if you're walking them, they'll meet the halter or they'll meet
• 1:12:02
  the rain or they'll meet, if you sit on them, maybe your leg that closes up around
• 1:12:06
  them for you to stay on and balance.
• 1:12:09
  And that's again the thing where if they see you as a threat, then
• 1:12:14
  that's where you get in trouble.
• 1:12:15
  But if they see you as helpful when they meet your aides, then
• 1:12:20
  you can come back in harmony.
• 1:12:23
  So I, I feel now it's not about being calm all the time.
• 1:12:27
  It's like, can we keep our connection?
• 1:12:30
  And that's whether that's your connection with the horse or whether
• 1:12:33
  that's a connection with yourself.
• 1:12:35
  Can I keep that connection through whatever's going on, you know, through
• 1:12:41
  the triggering thing or the reaction Yeah.
• 1:12:44
  Or whatever it is.
• 1:12:45
  You know, I think that is a, is a thing I've more moved towards because
• 1:12:49
  then you can go through all kinds of situations, all kinds of states and yeah.
• 1:12:56
  Still be, still be all right.
• 1:12:59
  And.
• 1:13:00
  And it's part of life.
• 1:13:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:13:02
  I'm thinking, I'm thinking about also having more, having a larger repertoire of
• 1:13:05
  AIDS can, so, you know, when I was younger there was no in hand work, for example.
• 1:13:10
  Yeah.
• 1:13:11
  So when one was faced with say the horse, what they would call in England, napping.
• 1:13:17
  I don't want to go forward and I'm going to either say, either I am
• 1:13:21
  afraid of the rubbish bins or I'm gonna pretend I'm afraid of the
• 1:13:24
  rubbish bins, but whatever it is, I'm bracing here and I'm not going forward.
• 1:13:28
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:13:28
  And the only tool we were given was to try and use force and
• 1:13:36
  sometimes it would quote unquote work, but that behavior would never really go away.
• 1:13:42
  Yeah.
• 1:13:42
  Or it wouldn't work.
• 1:13:45
  And in the not working, it could sometimes result in you or the horse getting hurt.
• 1:13:52
  And the prevailing wisdom at the time was if you got off
• 1:13:56
  the horse, the horse had won.
• 1:13:59
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:14:00
  That failed.
• 1:14:01
  Rupert Isaacson: Which was so interesting to me because I'm, there was this little
• 1:14:04
  part of me even back then thinking, yeah, but horses don't think like us, right?
• 1:14:07
  I mean, they, they don't sit there at night planning how to mess us
• 1:14:14
  up like a human might, you know?
• 1:14:16
  It's not, they don't have strategies, but I dunno if they have that
• 1:14:18
  strategy they're more in the moment.
• 1:14:20
  Right.
• 1:14:20
  So surely if I get off and lead the horse.
• 1:14:25
  Around, through somehow in that situation, reassure him.
• 1:14:31
  Isn't that a win?
• 1:14:34
  But I assume No, no, it's not Rupert.
• 1:14:36
  You've got, you gotta, and and you'd have people really barking at you.
• 1:14:39
  Make him do it.
• 1:14:41
  Yeah.
• 1:14:41
  Sometimes three or four people like that at a time.
• 1:14:45
  Now I know with, you know, lovely in hand work.
• 1:14:48
  Back to again, what you were talking about, moving the shoulders away,
• 1:14:51
  moving the haunches away, shoulder in whatever we're gonna call it.
• 1:14:55
  Shoulders out.
• 1:14:57
  My first reaction is dismount and change the subject.
• 1:15:02
  Let's, oh, good idea.
• 1:15:03
  Let's stay here and do these in-hand patents.
• 1:15:05
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:15:05
  And let's gradually move closer in these in hand patents to Mr.
• 1:15:09
  Rubbish bin.
• 1:15:10
  And then, oh, hello Mr.
• 1:15:12
  Rubbish bin.
• 1:15:12
  This is my friend Mr.
• 1:15:13
  Horen.
• 1:15:14
  Yeah.
• 1:15:14
  Pleased to meet you.
• 1:15:15
  And yeah.
• 1:15:15
  Would you like to exchange WhatsApp numbers and maybe chat
• 1:15:17
  about your mutual anxiety and you know, pretty soon we're just doing
• 1:15:21
  our patterns around the thing or
• 1:15:25
  something.
• 1:15:26
  But there, there's a, as you say, there's a range of tools and a range of
• 1:15:30
  aids where the aids can be reassuring rather than meeting your leg to kick
• 1:15:36
  or meeting the stick to drive forward.
• 1:15:40
  The stick can then be just, oh, well let's play with these in hand things just
• 1:15:44
  to teach you how to have the stick on your shoulder to stop and how to, yeah.
• 1:15:48
  Have a,
• 1:15:49
  Kira Julius: and also again, it softens the body, you know?
• 1:15:51
  And we always know the mind and the body.
• 1:15:53
  They work together so much.
• 1:15:54
  So, and it gives them something to do.
• 1:15:57
  And somewhere, you know, when, when they tense up, that energy goes into the body
• 1:16:01
  and then it gives them somewhere to move.
• 1:16:04
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:16:05
  Kira Julius: That energy.
• 1:16:05
  Yeah.
• 1:16:06
  Rupert Isaacson: And if you, yourself are scared, you know,
• 1:16:08
  and, and tensing then to dismount is to make yourself safe or safer.
• 1:16:13
  Rightly, surely.
• 1:16:14
  That's a good idea.
• 1:16:15
  You know?
• 1:16:16
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:16:16
  Yeah.
• 1:16:17
  And I think at the end of the day, a horse cares about whether they
• 1:16:20
  feel good around you, whether they feel safe with you, whether you
• 1:16:23
  make sense, whether you're helpful.
• 1:16:26
  They do not care whether you dismounted or not.
• 1:16:29
  You know, they just know, oh, I was in this situation, I got worried and then
• 1:16:37
  I worked with my human and I was okay.
• 1:16:40
  That is takeaway.
• 1:16:41
  We'd like them to have, you know, it's also when I work with horses in workshops,
• 1:16:47
  I always say, because sometimes you wanna show a lot and stuff, but I always say to
• 1:16:53
  the audience, look, what I want to get to with this horse is that if I approached
• 1:16:59
  them tomorrow and said, would you like to come out and play with me again?
• 1:17:02
  That they say yes.
• 1:17:05
  I would.
• 1:17:07
  So giving them that experience.
• 1:17:09
  Right.
• 1:17:09
  And
• 1:17:10
  Rupert Isaacson: also do that.
• 1:17:10
  Are you someone that they want to hang out with?
• 1:17:11
  Yeah.
• 1:17:12
  Kira Julius: Yeah,
• 1:17:12
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 1:17:12
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:17:14
  Ultimately that's the same when working with people.
• 1:17:16
  Right.
• 1:17:16
  That's a feeling we want to give.
• 1:17:18
  Say if it's, if it's a child with autism or whatever.
• 1:17:21
  If, if I'm working with them, it's the same.
• 1:17:23
  I want to at the end of the session feel that when they come again the
• 1:17:26
  next time and they get out of the car and they see me there that they
• 1:17:30
  think, cool, I wanna do this thing.
• 1:17:32
  Yeah.
• 1:17:33
  And I'm gonna be alright here.
• 1:17:35
  Yeah.
• 1:17:35
  Rupert Isaacson: And it, it's true that the safety thing is the first
• 1:17:38
  prerequisite, but the fun and curiosity it makes one want to return.
• 1:17:48
  But of course, fun and curiosity will lead us into situations where
• 1:17:52
  we no longer feel quite so safe.
• 1:17:55
  But if we, let's say, I'm just thinking like a, a standard horse
• 1:17:59
  boy play date where the kid wants to dismount and go in the creek.
• 1:18:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:18:03
  And then suddenly he's in the creek wants to go in the
• 1:18:05
  creek, we make sure it's safe.
• 1:18:06
  We're obviously not gonna let him go in the creek unless we, we're
• 1:18:08
  not even gonna be near the creek.
• 1:18:09
  Unless we know the creek is safe.
• 1:18:10
  Yeah.
• 1:18:11
  But nonetheless, it's a new situation.
• 1:18:12
  Am I safe?
• 1:18:13
  Am I not?
• 1:18:14
  And now we have to go through a another series of of things, but because I
• 1:18:17
  feel a base safety, if I'm the kid, I feel okay, I could explore here.
• 1:18:25
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:18:25
  Rupert Isaacson: And now deal with my soft, am I safe again?
• 1:18:29
  Trigger to now learn.
• 1:18:31
  Yeah.
• 1:18:31
  What do I do with water?
• 1:18:33
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:18:34
  But like ultimately you want that safety.
• 1:18:36
  You don't want it to be like, yeah.
• 1:18:38
  Rupert Isaacson: Immobilize,
• 1:18:38
  Kira Julius: I'm safe and coddled in every situation you want it to be.
• 1:18:42
  That even when I go out and explore with my curiosity, even if maybe I
• 1:18:48
  do have a meltdown, I am still safe.
• 1:18:52
  That emotional safety is still there.
• 1:18:54
  You know what I mean?
• 1:18:55
  That's,
• 1:18:55
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 1:18:56
  My people, more people will see me.
• 1:18:57
  Right?
• 1:18:57
  Yeah.
• 1:18:57
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:18:58
  And I think that's also with the horses, the same thing.
• 1:19:02
  I want to feel that the horse knows, even if I make a mistake or if my human makes a
• 1:19:09
  mistake, that we are still gonna be okay.
• 1:19:13
  Like the bottom line is okay, but within that container, a lot can happen.
• 1:19:18
  That's not come, you know?
• 1:19:20
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 1:19:20
  Kira Julius: It's, it's again that, that conversation
• 1:19:23
  Rupert Isaacson: right.
• 1:19:23
  And the acts of God, I mean, things that you just can't see coming.
• 1:19:26
  I I, I'm thinking about a particular situation I had where we were in a
• 1:19:30
  part of England where there are army training grounds in the vicinity.
• 1:19:36
  Yeah.
• 1:19:36
  With, with a young horse.
• 1:19:37
  And what were the odds?
• 1:19:40
  Two huge military helicopters came up over the ridge of an area that
• 1:19:46
  we were used to working a lot.
• 1:19:49
  Never seen anything like that before.
• 1:19:51
  And it had to happen right there and right then.
• 1:19:55
  Kira Julius: Mm-hmm.
• 1:19:55
  Rupert Isaacson: We have no control over that.
• 1:19:57
  And the.
• 1:20:00
  Fact is that's what life does.
• 1:20:02
  So are our tools then going to bring us, like when we meet those lines with
• 1:20:07
  Jamanda, we meet those helicopters, is there enough learned resilience to
• 1:20:13
  think even though that's happening, I can be optimistic about the outcome?
• 1:20:19
  Yeah.
• 1:20:20
  And yeah, the horses leapt around a little bit, but because we were ourselves
• 1:20:26
  not panicking and okay, we could go through the disruption back to calm.
• 1:20:38
  'cause it's not that we don't want calm as well.
• 1:20:40
  It's just more, I suppose to, to my mind the dance of life feels
• 1:20:45
  like and the dance of life is what we're talking about here, isn't it?
• 1:20:49
  Whether, whether it's with horses or people or both.
• 1:20:53
  When one's a toddler and one is learning to walk that's why they call it toddling.
• 1:20:57
  We face plant a lot, you know?
• 1:20:59
  And but it doesn't stop us.
• 1:21:02
  Yeah.
• 1:21:02
  Each face plant does not stop us from toddling more because
• 1:21:06
  we know we need to toddle.
• 1:21:09
  Yeah.
• 1:21:09
  And eventually we know we need to run dance, climb and do the whole thing.
• 1:21:14
  So the face plants are okay, but we hope that mom and dad don't
• 1:21:19
  say you stupid little da da da.
• 1:21:21
  You know?
• 1:21:21
  And they kick you when you fall down.
• 1:21:23
  We, we hope that mom and dad give you support.
• 1:21:25
  Lift you up.
• 1:21:26
  Yeah.
• 1:21:27
  Dust you down, give you a kiss and a hug and help you along your way again.
• 1:21:30
  And so of course then you see somebody who knows how to walk and it appears that they
• 1:21:36
  are constantly in balance and they're not.
• 1:21:38
  What they're doing is they're giving away balance and retrieving balance and giving
• 1:21:42
  away balance and retrieving balance, but they're now just efficient at it.
• 1:21:45
  However, if there's one little paving stone that is even a quarter of an inch
• 1:21:50
  higher than the other one because of the commitment to weight, that one has
• 1:21:54
  to make the commitment to the loss of balance one still has to make in any
• 1:21:58
  given footfall walking, we will face plant, and once in a while we will.
• 1:22:04
  Yeah.
• 1:22:04
  But we've, we learned from way back in Toddlerdom that you, even
• 1:22:10
  though you can really seriously hurt yourself with a face bump
• 1:22:12
  mm-hmm.
• 1:22:13
  Rupert Isaacson: You land on your elbow or something, you
• 1:22:14
  know, you could break your nose.
• 1:22:16
  You could do lots of things, but you'll probably won't.
• 1:22:19
  And you'll probably mostly just have bruised pride.
• 1:22:23
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:22:23
  And it doesn't stop you walking.
• 1:22:25
  Right.
• 1:22:25
  Rupert Isaacson: It's not gonna stop.
• 1:22:26
  You still stop if it stops you walking.
• 1:22:27
  Yeah.
• 1:22:28
  Then you can say, well, I'm never gonna leave my house.
• 1:22:30
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:22:30
  Rupert Isaacson: That's gonna be a greater set of problems.
• 1:22:32
  When you then encountered this slightly immobilizing anxiety, despite having
• 1:22:42
  learned resilience with the family situation with your dad, despite
• 1:22:45
  having, you know, gone to Tanzania as a teenager and done that thing,
• 1:22:49
  despite all of this work with.
• 1:22:53
  High level work with the horses.
• 1:22:55
  I think this is really interesting because this can, it can creep up on one.
• 1:22:58
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:22:59
  These little nervous breakdowns.
• 1:23:01
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:23:01
  Rupert Isaacson: Where you're like, you're grand.
• 1:23:02
  Your grand, your grand, your grand and won.
• 1:23:05
  Kira Julius: Mm-hmm.
• 1:23:06
  Rupert Isaacson: There must have been a part of you that
• 1:23:07
  was like, hold on a second.
• 1:23:09
  I'm the person that went to Tanzania at 16.
• 1:23:10
  I'm the person that can like, go under top Paul in front of big crowds
• 1:23:14
  with, with sharp, warm bloods and be okay, but I'm, what is going on here?
• 1:23:20
  Yeah.
• 1:23:21
  And why are my tools not working?
• 1:23:26
  Can you just give us a little insight into that?
• 1:23:29
  Because I think a lot of people that are coming as clients in the equine
• 1:23:33
  assisted world, particularly as adults
• 1:23:35
  Kira Julius: mm-hmm.
• 1:23:36
  Rupert Isaacson: Are dealing with exactly that.
• 1:23:37
  It's like, hold on a second.
• 1:23:39
  I've been going through life and then, then there's o another group
• 1:23:43
  who are sort of adolescents who I think are less, perhaps resilient
• 1:23:47
  today than they have been in previous generations, and we could go into maybe
• 1:23:50
  why that might be saying, I, I don't seem to be able to mobilize at all.
• 1:23:55
  Kira Julius: Mm-hmm.
• 1:23:56
  Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
• 1:23:59
  I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little
• 1:24:04
  bit about the old master system.
• 1:24:07
  of dressage training.
• 1:24:08
  If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
• 1:24:17
  exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
• 1:24:23
  of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
• 1:24:30
  well being of the horse and the rider.
• 1:24:33
  Intrigued?
• 1:24:34
  Like to know more?
• 1:24:35
  Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
• 1:24:40
  Check out the free introduction course.
• 1:24:42
  Take it from there.
• 1:24:43
  Talk to us about that.
• 1:24:46
  How did you deal with that process of, but I know how to
• 1:24:51
  walk, why do I feel I can't walk?
• 1:24:54
  You know?
• 1:24:55
  Yeah.
• 1:24:55
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:24:56
  Initially that was actually something that made it worse, I'd say, because
• 1:25:00
  I was beating myself up very badly and you, you can get to feeling that there's.
• 1:25:07
  Something so seriously wrong with you.
• 1:25:11
  I was like, why am I this messed up?
• 1:25:14
  You know?
• 1:25:14
  And I just felt that I was in some ways beyond repair, you know?
• 1:25:19
  Which is not true.
• 1:25:22
  But it was there.
• 1:25:23
  And I think it's just important to say that, that that can be the state that
• 1:25:27
  you, you find someone in, you know?
• 1:25:29
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:25:30
  Kira Julius: I mean, I guess what what helped me is I, I, I sought,
• 1:25:35
  I started actively seeking help.
• 1:25:37
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:25:38
  Kira Julius: From other humans.
• 1:25:39
  I was like, because I think from the situation that happened with my dad,
• 1:25:45
  I had built a bit of a belief that I had to be able to do it myself.
• 1:25:48
  Mm.
• 1:25:49
  And of course, we're not designed to do everything No.
• 1:25:52
  With tribal
• 1:25:52
  Rupert Isaacson: people.
• 1:25:52
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:25:53
  And
• 1:25:54
  Kira Julius: so I was like, okay.
• 1:25:56
  I found Jane Pike brilliant.
• 1:25:58
  Jane Pike, who is an expert in nervous system work and supports, especially
• 1:26:05
  horse people, but all kinds of people now, also does a lot of creative work.
• 1:26:08
  Rupert Isaacson: And, and again, for listeners and viewers, there's
• 1:26:11
  a very, very good interview we did with Jane Pike on our other podcast.
• 1:26:15
  Live Free, ride Free, go have a listen to her.
• 1:26:17
  'cause she, she is very good on this subject.
• 1:26:19
  Yeah.
• 1:26:19
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:26:20
  And from her, I got.
• 1:26:24
  I got lots of knowledge about what was going on for me and why
• 1:26:27
  I was feeling the way I was from a nervous system perspective.
• 1:26:31
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:26:32
  Kira Julius: But I think what helped me even more was that she's got this
• 1:26:36
  in her program, when you're in your program, you get into a Facebook group.
• 1:26:40
  And in there I started reading the conversations that were going on in
• 1:26:45
  there and then eventually started putting questions in myself or
• 1:26:50
  just things I was struggling with.
• 1:26:52
  And I found, even though it was just an online community, the fact that people
• 1:26:58
  were not shaming me for it, they were not saying there was anything wrong with me.
• 1:27:03
  Everyone was kind, helpful, uplifting.
• 1:27:09
  There was also a lot of banter, joking, joy, you know, it's,
• 1:27:13
  there was also a seeking of joy, which I hadn't really considered.
• 1:27:19
  Rupert Isaacson: And And humor is perspective, isn't it?
• 1:27:21
  When you have humor, you see a situation from the outside.
• 1:27:24
  Yeah, yeah,
• 1:27:24
  Kira Julius: yeah.
• 1:27:25
  Because Jane also, she has a brilliant sense of humor also.
• 1:27:28
  Yeah,
• 1:27:28
  Rupert Isaacson: she does.
• 1:27:28
  Yeah.
• 1:27:28
  Kira Julius: So, and, and the lightheartedness, even though you talk
• 1:27:31
  about very serious topics sometimes, and I think that for me was the first step
• 1:27:37
  to getting better, to realizing, okay, I do, I do need community for this.
• 1:27:45
  And then
• 1:27:49
  I guess.
• 1:27:51
  I gradually started, actually it was before that even I, I went to kind of a
• 1:27:56
  shamanic healing intensive for two weeks.
• 1:28:00
  That was a bit of a, that was a bit of a, a really cry for help.
• 1:28:03
  I was like, I don't know what to do anymore, so I'll just go
• 1:28:07
  away and work with Shamans for two weeks because I felt Yeah.
• 1:28:11
  Rupert Isaacson: And that's, that's kind of back to you say
• 1:28:13
  about you moving your feet.
• 1:28:14
  I think that the Sacred Journey pilgrimage, this is
• 1:28:18
  as old as humanity as well.
• 1:28:20
  Yeah.
• 1:28:20
  This idea is I will physically not just mentally get off my butt and go and seek,
• 1:28:29
  'cause we're hunting gatherers, right?
• 1:28:31
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:28:31
  I would go and seek
• 1:28:32
  Kira Julius: mm-hmm.
• 1:28:33
  Rupert Isaacson: A solution.
• 1:28:35
  This is something I think is not often really talked about, about how, how vital
• 1:28:40
  that physical movement towards a solution.
• 1:28:44
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:28:45
  Rupert Isaacson: Because
• 1:28:45
  Kira Julius: I think
• 1:28:46
  Rupert Isaacson: myself, yeah,
• 1:28:46
  Kira Julius: there was, there was always a spark of I want to feel
• 1:28:50
  different to what I'm feeling now.
• 1:28:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:28:52
  Kira Julius: And I, I guess there must have been some belief that
• 1:28:54
  I could feel different if I just moved enough in some ways, you know?
• 1:29:01
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:29:02
  So, and then I think it just, those two things combined got me starting to, to
• 1:29:11
  look into chasing joy more and things that gave me a sense of aliveness.
• 1:29:19
  Because it, it can be such a paradox that you feel so anxious and at the
• 1:29:23
  same time you feel a bit dead inside.
• 1:29:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:29:26
  Kira Julius: There, so there's a lot of emotion and a lot
• 1:29:30
  of activity in your body.
• 1:29:32
  And at the same time you do not feel
• 1:29:36
  Rupert Isaacson: there's a sort of
• 1:29:36
  Kira Julius: stagnation a lot.
• 1:29:37
  Yeah.
• 1:29:38
  And that, that can be a hard one to sit with.
• 1:29:41
  'cause often you feel, oh, but I'm tired from all this stuff moving in my body.
• 1:29:47
  And then you feel I don't have the energy to go out and do this
• 1:29:49
  thing that will bring me joy.
• 1:29:53
  But you, in that situation, I would say it's crucial that you move and
• 1:29:57
  do that thing that brings you joy.
• 1:29:59
  'cause that's what's gonna give you the energy.
• 1:30:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:30:02
  And of course what does, what's the first sign of depression is it's
• 1:30:05
  lack of physical movement usually.
• 1:30:07
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:30:07
  Rupert Isaacson: The, and what's interesting too is you said you
• 1:30:09
  found that Facebook group with Jane's program, 'cause as, as you know,
• 1:30:14
  Facebook can be all sorts of trickiness.
• 1:30:19
  Kira Julius: Yeah,
• 1:30:19
  Rupert Isaacson: absolutely.
• 1:30:20
  And one can on social media find all kinds of reasons to not
• 1:30:25
  move to wallow, to go deeper.
• 1:30:29
  In fact, if you put those sorts of posts out, you really dive into the pmi, you'll
• 1:30:34
  get so much positive feedback on that.
• 1:30:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:30:36
  That it will actually feed quite a lot of dopamine within one's
• 1:30:40
  brain to say, oh, well if I.
• 1:30:43
  I really concentrate on my suffering here and effectively celebrate that.
• 1:30:49
  I'm gonna get a lot of positive feedback.
• 1:30:51
  So this validates me.
• 1:30:54
  So I'll keep doing that.
• 1:30:56
  But of course all that's gonna mean is that I just stay where I am.
• 1:31:00
  And of course we know that this is one of the issues of social media, I think
• 1:31:02
  particularly with the younger generation because it's, it's definitely something
• 1:31:08
  which is an unavoidable conversation right now, which is that why is your average
• 1:31:18
  late adolescent, early adult person today seemingly so much less resilient
• 1:31:24
  Kira Julius: mm-hmm.
• 1:31:25
  Rupert Isaacson: Than
• 1:31:25
  Kira Julius: mm-hmm in
• 1:31:27
  Rupert Isaacson: the previous generation.
• 1:31:28
  Yeah.
• 1:31:29
  Kira Julius: That maybe COVID has something to do with it as well,
• 1:31:31
  because there was a timeframe where we were constantly being fed that
• 1:31:40
  other people are dangerous, you know, because the way, you know, there was
• 1:31:45
  kind of lockdown and all the things.
• 1:31:48
  Yeah.
• 1:31:48
  And you, you weren't allowed within a certain space of other people.
• 1:31:52
  You always had to have, what is it, one and a half meters distance or whatever.
• 1:31:55
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:31:55
  So subconsciously you're starting to tell your body, you have to fear
• 1:32:00
  other human beings that's not safe to be close to other human beings.
• 1:32:04
  I think when,
• 1:32:05
  Rupert Isaacson: of course, the mammalian caregiving system is all about proximity,
• 1:32:08
  Kira Julius: I think that has really rattled.
• 1:32:11
  The, the nervous system of all of us in a way because,
• 1:32:15
  Rupert Isaacson: but especially the ones who were kids during that time.
• 1:32:17
  Kira Julius: Yes.
• 1:32:17
  Yeah.
• 1:32:18
  'cause we, we already in modern society, lack that feeling of
• 1:32:23
  community so often lack that tribe.
• 1:32:27
  You know, that that's also where we're talking about.
• 1:32:30
  Yeah.
• 1:32:30
  You have to move and you have to do all those things.
• 1:32:31
  But in saying that, I also do realize that that is so much harder
• 1:32:36
  when you do not feel that you have a community who supports you.
• 1:32:39
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:32:40
  Kira Julius: For me, that was really the first step to being
• 1:32:42
  able to actually move that.
• 1:32:43
  I felt I had some sort of community even that I felt safely held within
• 1:32:50
  unconditionally and that many people like, and I do think that that got
• 1:32:54
  worse during COVID because the way we were moving around the world and
• 1:32:59
  the information we were being fed all the time was just wiring us to think.
• 1:33:03
  Yeah.
• 1:33:03
  As I said, that we have to fear in some way or the people and being close to other
• 1:33:10
  Rupert Isaacson: humans.
• 1:33:10
  I think, I think there's a lot of truth in that.
• 1:33:12
  It's, so, okay.
• 1:33:14
  Let's, let's just go on a little bit with your bio that, that's some other things
• 1:33:18
  I'd like to talk to around these subjects, but I think it, if we go forward in.
• 1:33:23
  Your story.
• 1:33:24
  I think it will help.
• 1:33:25
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:33:25
  So you then end up working in Ireland with, at Stewart's Care, which
• 1:33:30
  is, you know, a large organization that does art methods, it does
• 1:33:34
  horse boy, it does move a method.
• 1:33:35
  It does, but it also does other things too.
• 1:33:37
  Yeah.
• 1:33:38
  And it's not, there's an equine unit, but it's obviously a much bigger
• 1:33:41
  organization than just the equine.
• 1:33:43
  Kira Julius: Yes.
• 1:33:43
  Rupert Isaacson: How, talk to us about your experience there, how your experience
• 1:33:47
  up until that point helped and informed your therapeutic practice there.
• 1:33:51
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:33:51
  And then,
• 1:33:55
  yeah, give us some situations with clients and horses.
• 1:34:01
  'cause you also were responsible for helping from the ground up.
• 1:34:04
  Prepare all the horses for this organization as well.
• 1:34:07
  'cause it had to happen in a hurry.
• 1:34:09
  It, you know, that they, they they got the green light and suddenly, okay, we
• 1:34:11
  need all these horses and we need to get moving and we need to get serving.
• 1:34:15
  And suddenly you were in there getting all these horses together
• 1:34:19
  and then boom, you're in serving not a small client base, but an almost
• 1:34:26
  overwhelming tsunami client base.
• 1:34:28
  Yeah.
• 1:34:28
  Once again, Kira style, you go in at the deep end.
• 1:34:31
  So Yeah.
• 1:34:32
  Talk us through that.
• 1:34:32
  Tell us about that.
• 1:34:34
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:34:34
  I mean, I, I have to say that they had already, by the time I
• 1:34:38
  got there, Don a really good job with the horses that were there.
• 1:34:43
  Rupert Isaacson: And Ke our mutual friend, ke Sullivan had been a big part
• 1:34:46
  Kira Julius: of that.
• 1:34:46
  Exactly.
• 1:34:46
  She had already done a lot so.
• 1:34:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Note two viewers and listeners go back to the Ke
• 1:34:52
  Sullivan and Anne Hemingway podcast that we did a year or two ago.
• 1:34:57
  Very, very good people.
• 1:34:58
  You need to, okay, so yeah.
• 1:35:00
  Yeah.
• 1:35:00
  So Ke had
• 1:35:01
  Kira Julius: brilliant.
• 1:35:01
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:35:01
  Kes and Terry had been
• 1:35:02
  Kira Julius: exactly, they had, they had been doing a lot already.
• 1:35:05
  And then of course, again, it's, it, it was an interesting
• 1:35:09
  task, but I especially enjoyed
• 1:35:13
  working with so many clients 'cause it was the first time for
• 1:35:16
  me being really exposed to that.
• 1:35:19
  And funnily enough, I found that the skills I'd gotten from working with
• 1:35:25
  very sensitive horses really helped because it, it is so much, especially
• 1:35:33
  when you're dealing with nonverbal clients, becomes about reading the
• 1:35:40
  body language, the state they're in, and responding to that in a way that
• 1:35:46
  signals to them that you hear them and that you are a safe person for them.
• 1:35:51
  Because you're, you're trying to, even though like we would have half
• 1:35:54
  an hour with each client only, but you're trying to build relationship
• 1:35:59
  also because we know that in order for them to really get the benefit of the
• 1:36:05
  session and to learn, they need to.
• 1:36:09
  Feel safe enough because when they're amygdala it's too triggered.
• 1:36:13
  They will not be able to, to learn.
• 1:36:16
  I mean, that's a whole neuroscience behind horse boy.
• 1:36:18
  Right.
• 1:36:18
  So, but I also learned, learned a lot from these kids, I feel, and I feel
• 1:36:26
  that sometimes they, they view the world in such wondrous ways that in a lot
• 1:36:33
  of ways helped me with my own stuff.
• 1:36:37
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:36:38
  Can you give us a couple of examples?
• 1:36:40
  Kira Julius: I, well, there there's one, well, a beautiful example I felt was I
• 1:36:44
  was, I was out with a girl and we were, we were chatting and she was active and she
• 1:36:51
  started blowing kisses to the environment.
• 1:36:55
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:36:55
  Kira Julius: And I was like, oh, that's, that's so nice.
• 1:36:57
  You're blowing.
• 1:36:59
  Are you blowing kisses to the air?
• 1:37:00
  And she's like, oh, I'm blowing kisses to the grass.
• 1:37:03
  I was like, oh, that's, that's nice.
• 1:37:04
  Why are you doing that?
• 1:37:06
  And then she told me how her grandpa had passed away.
• 1:37:10
  She said, well, yeah, my grandpa passed away and, but
• 1:37:15
  now that means he's everywhere.
• 1:37:16
  He's in everything.
• 1:37:17
  So when I blow kisses to the grass, I also blow kisses to my grandpa.
• 1:37:23
  And I like, you got it kid.
• 1:37:26
  You know, you wish it'd be listening to you because that can, sometimes
• 1:37:30
  you can have parents come in and say.
• 1:37:34
  She lives in her fantasy world a lot, or can you bring her more into reality
• 1:37:38
  when in some ways I felt with things like that she was closer to reality than
• 1:37:45
  Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
• 1:37:46
  Kira Julius: Many of us maybe, maybe are.
• 1:37:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:37:49
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:37:49
  She should have been the therapist in that situation.
• 1:37:51
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:37:52
  Actually, another interesting one I had, this is a lot about kind
• 1:37:57
  of the, how expectations also can shape things and how helpful joy is.
• 1:38:02
  Because there was a boy who came with a school and we'd often, we'd get so
• 1:38:06
  many kids, and especially when they came with a school, you wouldn't
• 1:38:10
  know who you were paired up with.
• 1:38:11
  You often didn't really know much about the child at that time that, that you were
• 1:38:16
  meeting, you know, we'd have a general plan, and of course there were teachers
• 1:38:20
  present and there were assistants present.
• 1:38:22
  But this boy, he was just really keen and he was positive.
• 1:38:26
  And I had a pony already, so I just got him up on the pony and we just
• 1:38:30
  started chatting and I could tell he, he liked a lot of movement and
• 1:38:35
  stuff, so I got him trotting right away and we did funny things and it
• 1:38:41
  was very playful and joyful and he was just talking to me the whole time.
• 1:38:47
  And then when we were done with the sessions, the teachers were like,
• 1:38:51
  yeah, he doesn't talk to strangers.
• 1:38:54
  Usually, and to me in that situation, I was kind of grateful.
• 1:38:59
  I didn't know that before.
• 1:39:01
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:39:02
  Because I didn't treat him in any like, different way to, to a kid.
• 1:39:10
  You know, you feel out where the kid is, but I might, I might
• 1:39:12
  not have clogged onto that.
• 1:39:14
  He was open and ready to have fun.
• 1:39:17
  If I would've thought, Ooh, he doesn't like strangers.
• 1:39:19
  I have to be really careful because that's, that could have been told
• 1:39:26
  to me by the people around him, but that's not what he was telling me.
• 1:39:30
  Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
• 1:39:31
  Kira Julius: And I think that's, that's a thing that can happen with
• 1:39:34
  people, but also with horses that we have to be careful not to project
• 1:39:40
  a story or limitations onto them.
• 1:39:43
  Allow them to tell us where they're at and equally allow them to tell us
• 1:39:48
  when they're not ready for something.
• 1:39:49
  You know, you might also have a situation the other way around where, where people
• 1:39:53
  tell you, oh, but he's fine with that.
• 1:39:54
  But the kid is clearly telling you they're not fine with that
• 1:39:57
  in this particular situation.
• 1:40:01
  So I guess it taught me for one, really to listen to the person, be
• 1:40:09
  that a person in horse shape, a person in human shape, really to listen to
• 1:40:14
  the person in front of me and allow them to say yes and no to things.
• 1:40:21
  Because if you.
• 1:40:23
  Offer something, should we do this?
• 1:40:25
  And you pause, you will often be able to see, are they into it or not?
• 1:40:33
  You know, most of the time you'll get some indication.
• 1:40:36
  And at the same time it also taught me that thing of how
• 1:40:40
  important joy and play is.
• 1:40:43
  And because often if you could make things funny, if it was
• 1:40:48
  engaging, if it was humorous, everything became so much easier.
• 1:40:55
  And that's actually something I've also taken on from you as a
• 1:40:59
  horse trainer because when I see you work with horses I'm gonna
• 1:41:02
  inflate your ego a little bit here.
• 1:41:03
  Now there's always a sense of humor about it.
• 1:41:06
  So if the horse does something, you see the brilliance in it and maybe how
• 1:41:17
  it was funny or it's, it's not made into a bigger deal than what it was.
• 1:41:23
  And I think nowadays we humans can often get into doing the opposite.
• 1:41:29
  You know, taking a little thing and being like, well, but that was not
• 1:41:32
  what I wanted and that was wrong.
• 1:41:33
  And then you're in this negative spiral, rather than saying, that's kind of funny.
• 1:41:38
  And that was quite a creative response I got there.
• 1:41:41
  And what are the possibilities with this and or how do I need
• 1:41:46
  to adjust to move closer to.
• 1:41:48
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:41:48
  Kira Julius: Where I wanna go.
• 1:41:50
  Rupert Isaacson: The listening thing is really thank you for the compliment.
• 1:41:52
  The, the, the listening thing is to me the key.
• 1:41:56
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:41:56
  Rupert Isaacson: I think that my son uncompromisingly trained by being
• 1:42:04
  nonverbal that there was no option.
• 1:42:09
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:42:10
  Rupert Isaacson: But to train oneself into different ways of listening.
• 1:42:15
  Listen with the body, listen, you know, and I, I can think back to the
• 1:42:19
  training with the bushman that I went through and that was the same really?
• 1:42:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:42:23
  Kira Julius: Even again, listen with your gut, right.
• 1:42:25
  Sometimes you get a gut feeling about, yeah.
• 1:42:28
  Rupert Isaacson: And then sometimes when there's a, a negative reaction
• 1:42:31
  isn't always a refusal, like a negative reaction is like a brace in
• 1:42:36
  a human or a horse I often find is not necessarily a refusal or a rejection.
• 1:42:42
  It is sometimes a frequently a, I dunno, yet.
• 1:42:47
  And in this moment, I need to pause because I need to sort of find out, my
• 1:42:54
  brain needs to know if I'm safe or not.
• 1:42:57
  And in my early horse training or horse life, you didn't wait
• 1:43:03
  for horses when they braced.
• 1:43:06
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:43:06
  Rupert Isaacson: It seems so obvious to just pause and wait.
• 1:43:10
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:43:11
  And say, take a moment.
• 1:43:14
  Kira Julius: You
• 1:43:14
  Rupert Isaacson: know, and by the way, if you do want to retreat
• 1:43:17
  from this thing, that's also, okay.
• 1:43:19
  You've got choice, you've got agency here.
• 1:43:21
  But here we are.
• 1:43:23
  So, and we are both curious, so we might go and have a look at it,
• 1:43:28
  but by all means, take some time.
• 1:43:32
  And then of course, in the School of Human upbringing that I was
• 1:43:36
  brought up with impatience was just impatience, backed up with corporal
• 1:43:41
  punishment was just what it was.
• 1:43:44
  Yeah.
• 1:43:44
  So, you learned
• 1:43:49
  that that type of school I went to was designed to train young army
• 1:43:55
  officers in World War I to be the first over the top of the trench
• 1:44:00
  and first into the machine gunfire.
• 1:44:02
  The average life expectancy of a young officer was six weeks.
• 1:44:08
  But you were expect that, that, that the whole, they thought they were training a
• 1:44:12
  kind of resilience of an override of fear.
• 1:44:16
  So we were all trained by the military and there were certain
• 1:44:19
  things that were good about it.
• 1:44:22
  Yeah.
• 1:44:22
  And certain things of course, that weren't.
• 1:44:25
  And but what we weren't given was weight because you're supposed to follow orders.
• 1:44:33
  Of course.
• 1:44:33
  If you are in a different situation, let's say you're not the regular
• 1:44:37
  Army, but you're the Special forces.
• 1:44:40
  They then go into a different form of training where they
• 1:44:42
  say, learn to trust your gut.
• 1:44:43
  Kira Julius: Mm-hmm.
• 1:44:45
  Rupert Isaacson: Don't go die unnecessarily because then
• 1:44:47
  you can't fulfill the mission.
• 1:44:49
  Yeah.
• 1:44:50
  Actually, then you do wait and say, well, what should we do or not do here?
• 1:44:55
  So it's quite interesting when I talk to my friends who went through the
• 1:44:58
  kind of follow orders, follow orders, follow orders, and then got drafted
• 1:45:01
  into special forces and then Yeah.
• 1:45:03
  All that stuff we told you about following orders, forget all that now, you know.
• 1:45:07
  And I often feel that with the work with autism and horses, we are a
• 1:45:12
  bit like special horses people.
• 1:45:14
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:45:16
  But instead of going to war with our fellow man, we're going
• 1:45:20
  to war with human unhappiness.
• 1:45:22
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:45:22
  Rupert Isaacson: And, and I feel to a large degree,
• 1:45:24
  we're often winning that war.
• 1:45:25
  Partly 'cause we understand about oxytocin, but also because that idea
• 1:45:30
  of learning to be resilient, learning to dance with danger and loss of
• 1:45:36
  balance, emotional whatever, but by all means take the time that is natural.
• 1:45:42
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:45:42
  To need for that process.
• 1:45:45
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:45:45
  Rupert Isaacson: Including, I also think retreat from it if necessary is okay.
• 1:45:49
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:45:50
  Kira Julius: But it's important also to mention that when you're talking
• 1:45:53
  about resilience, that a feeling of safety is part of the equation there.
• 1:45:59
  That indeed that is part of building resilience.
• 1:46:01
  Because I know we've been talking a lot about, you know,
• 1:46:05
  moving and doing things and.
• 1:46:08
  Going through situations, and that is all part of it too.
• 1:46:11
  But that equally is having the option to go back to safety that will often hugely
• 1:46:20
  Rupert Isaacson: Oh no, absolutely.
• 1:46:21
  Absolutely.
• 1:46:22
  I mean, if you,
• 1:46:23
  Kira Julius: for building
• 1:46:23
  Rupert Isaacson: it, come out from behind the bush and find that you
• 1:46:25
  shouldn't be there, then you should probably retreat back behind the bush.
• 1:46:28
  Yeah.
• 1:46:28
  And have a think, you know, and that is called survival.
• 1:46:32
  That can lead to thriving, to be whipped out from behind the bush into
• 1:46:38
  the danger may or may not end well.
• 1:46:41
  And but so what you talked about, about human environment, this is
• 1:46:45
  of course the only, the only real safety at the end of the day.
• 1:46:48
  I, I feel that if one, we are tribal social apes, and when we're in a hunter
• 1:46:57
  gatherer situation, when we are middle of the food chain, not top of the food
• 1:47:02
  chain, we know that conflict, if conflict is allowed to go beyond a certain point,
• 1:47:09
  will fragment the community to the point where everybody will end up on their own
• 1:47:14
  and get eaten by the larger predators.
• 1:47:17
  Because we can only thrive and survive when we operate as a, as a group.
• 1:47:23
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:47:23
  So
• 1:47:24
  Rupert Isaacson: it's all about all those true human societies, all about
• 1:47:29
  conflict resolution, not about fueling.
• 1:47:31
  Yeah.
• 1:47:32
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:47:33
  Rupert Isaacson: And
• 1:47:33
  Kira Julius: And also what I think is part of it, when you talk about hunter
• 1:47:36
  gatherers and part of the survival was also having a relationship with
• 1:47:41
  the land and nature around them.
• 1:47:43
  Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
• 1:47:43
  Kira Julius: And I think that's also a pa a piece that has gotten a little bit lost.
• 1:47:48
  And that absolutely also takes away from that bottom line feeling of
• 1:47:53
  safety because when you feel you can't properly relate to the land,
• 1:47:57
  it's hard to feel that you belong.
• 1:47:59
  And it's also hard to, to read the situation and to assess
• 1:48:05
  whether am I safe or not.
• 1:48:07
  So I
• 1:48:07
  Rupert Isaacson: think think I I I so agree it, this is really interesting.
• 1:48:10
  As you know, within Horse Boy, one of the things which we encourage people
• 1:48:12
  to do is learn all the edible plants.
• 1:48:15
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:48:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Because kids are gonna put stuff in their mouth.
• 1:48:19
  Kira Julius: Mm-hmm.
• 1:48:19
  Rupert Isaacson: It may be that what they're putting in their mouth is
• 1:48:22
  actually necessary for their health.
• 1:48:24
  That, that the gut biome is, is really wise.
• 1:48:27
  When they go for dandelion, they probably do need dandelion.
• 1:48:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:48:31
  But you also don't want them to eat something toxic.
• 1:48:34
  Yeah.
• 1:48:34
  So you need to know, and you need to be able to discern.
• 1:48:38
  And just like with your horses, you want them to eat the good
• 1:48:41
  stuff and not the bad stuff.
• 1:48:42
  But the horse to a large degree does make that, that the gut biome of
• 1:48:46
  the horse does direct the horse's nervous system and brain and Yeah.
• 1:48:51
  To a large degree humans.
• 1:48:52
  It's so interesting you talked about the break viewing humans as a threat,
• 1:48:58
  you know, with COVID and of course.
• 1:48:59
  Just with the feuds within society.
• 1:49:02
  But I, we also know that
• 1:49:06
  since the kind of,
• 1:49:10
  it goes before the industrial revolution, it goes back to a kind
• 1:49:14
  of Judeo-Christian outlook, I think, of being a man at war with nature
• 1:49:19
  and man in dominion over nature.
• 1:49:21
  Kira Julius: Mm-hmm.
• 1:49:21
  Rupert Isaacson: This idea of nature as an adversary
• 1:49:24
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:49:24
  Rupert Isaacson: Rather than that must be conquered or neutralized.
• 1:49:28
  Yes.
• 1:49:29
  Rather than of course your principle ally.
• 1:49:32
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:49:32
  Because you are of it and it is of you.
• 1:49:35
  And you know, it's so interesting when you hear people say, oh, I
• 1:49:38
  don't like nature as a Yeah, but you're breathing oxygen, aren't you?
• 1:49:40
  That's nature.
• 1:49:41
  You know?
• 1:49:41
  Well, I don't like nature.
• 1:49:42
  Yeah, but you're wearing clothes, aren't you?
• 1:49:43
  That even if they're synthetic, come from fossil forests, whate, however you wanna
• 1:49:48
  put it, you are part of it whether you like, whether you think you are or not.
• 1:49:51
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:49:51
  Eating plants, I mean Yeah.
• 1:49:53
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:49:53
  And we nature.
• 1:49:54
  Yeah.
• 1:49:55
  Even this zoom con conversation we're on is, is is driven by
• 1:49:59
  electricity, which is nature, silica, you know, which is the, a natural,
• 1:50:03
  it's, it's, it's, it's all nature.
• 1:50:04
  We know this.
• 1:50:05
  Alright?
• 1:50:05
  But it's not an obvious forest or meadow.
• 1:50:09
  Okay.
• 1:50:11
  But I think that this has been driven into people, this fear of the very
• 1:50:19
  thing that we rely upon each other and the environment that sustains us.
• 1:50:28
  Could it be more dysfunctional?
• 1:50:30
  Could it be more of a recipe for unhappiness?
• 1:50:34
  No, I don't think it could.
• 1:50:36
  Kira Julius: Mm-hmm.
• 1:50:36
  Rupert Isaacson: How interesting that we've arrived at this point, and then
• 1:50:39
  when we're dealing with our fellow humans who are suffering, because as you know,
• 1:50:48
  when we're doing our autism trainings, which the problem is not autism, you can
• 1:50:51
  be super successful in life with autism.
• 1:50:55
  The problem is suffering that might be associated with certain symptoms
• 1:51:01
  or disorientation or nervous system over oversensitivity or whatever.
• 1:51:06
  Sure.
• 1:51:07
  Those things we can address.
• 1:51:09
  But the autism itself is a series of gifts.
• 1:51:11
  Same with any human state.
• 1:51:15
  Now that you've been working in that world for a while and you, you now
• 1:51:21
  have your own practice, um mm-hmm.
• 1:51:24
  And particularly with this little boy Donatello, who's so interesting, who,
• 1:51:27
  who I also know who's becoming verbal.
• 1:51:31
  And you're sort of
• 1:51:32
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:51:32
  Rupert Isaacson: I've watched you go through that process with
• 1:51:35
  him and helping the whole family.
• 1:51:38
  Helping.
• 1:51:39
  Yes.
• 1:51:39
  Layla, shout out to Layla, his excellent mother and, and so on.
• 1:51:43
  As we move towards the sort of two hour mark here, we, I think we all know that.
• 1:51:50
  Humans think in extremes.
• 1:51:51
  And one of the extremes that we seem to have come to both in the horse
• 1:51:57
  world and the human world now is that rather than resilience, this idea of
• 1:52:04
  trauma being so celebrated that as a place where you stay, 'cause it almost
• 1:52:09
  validates you, you can get a lot of validation on social media, for example.
• 1:52:13
  Why would I move through and say, well, I no longer feel traumatized because
• 1:52:17
  then all of that peer likes that I'm getting for my, you know, I feel so
• 1:52:24
  sad, posts will go away and I won't, I feel I won't have that support anymore.
• 1:52:30
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:52:30
  And it's gotten to the point in the horse world where there's a
• 1:52:33
  growing section of saying, well, you, you can't even touch them.
• 1:52:36
  You, you, you can't put a bridle and you shouldn't ride them.
• 1:52:38
  You shouldn't touch them with a stick.
• 1:52:39
  You shouldn't this, you shouldn't that.
• 1:52:41
  And
• 1:52:44
  these are very, very extreme positions that are gaining traction,
• 1:52:51
  but don't seem to marry up with the way life actually rolls.
• 1:52:57
  Yeah.
• 1:52:57
  And nature actually rolls.
• 1:53:00
  You are developing your career at this point, so that conversation
• 1:53:07
  is going to get louder.
• 1:53:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:53:10
  Where do you, what, what's the evolution of this?
• 1:53:14
  Is this just a, a fad?
• 1:53:16
  Is this just a phase and we'll get through it and come out on the other
• 1:53:20
  side of it to something more mature?
• 1:53:22
  Or are we going down a plug hole here?
• 1:53:26
  Or is it a bit of both?
• 1:53:29
  I think.
• 1:53:29
  'cause I think this is a conversation a lot of us are asking, you know?
• 1:53:32
  Yeah.
• 1:53:32
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:53:32
  Rupert Isaacson: And I don't think you need to give us a
• 1:53:33
  hard and fast answer, but Yeah.
• 1:53:35
  You know, just, just what are your, what are your thoughts on this?
• 1:53:37
  Kira Julius: I think it is closely connected to how will people
• 1:53:44
  deal with, as you say, that thing of going into trauma, going into
• 1:53:50
  dysfunctions and staying there.
• 1:53:53
  I actually, I, I had an, I've had an interesting couple of sessions with
• 1:53:59
  a medicine woman who's helped me.
• 1:54:01
  She, she specializes in grief work.
• 1:54:03
  Hmm.
• 1:54:04
  And a big part of her work is she has a big emphasis on yes,
• 1:54:08
  you go down, you meet the grief.
• 1:54:10
  She says, it's like a spiral.
• 1:54:11
  It's like you, you might spiral down and you meet it there and you process it.
• 1:54:15
  You sit with it.
• 1:54:16
  You allow it to be, because the grieving process is the healing
• 1:54:21
  process, rather than I have to get through my grief in order to heal.
• 1:54:25
  It is the healing process.
• 1:54:27
  And then she says, but then there's the second half of it that many people forget.
• 1:54:33
  It's that you spiral up again.
• 1:54:35
  You then take what you learn.
• 1:54:38
  And you say, what do I build from here?
• 1:54:40
  How will this experience fertilize what I'm building or the life I want to live or
• 1:54:46
  Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
• 1:54:47
  Kira Julius: Kind of the most beautiful vision I have for what, how I could
• 1:54:52
  be feeling and what I could be doing.
• 1:54:54
  And, and I think you could apply that principle to fear, to trauma,
• 1:55:00
  to whatever you're going through, is that the process of going
• 1:55:06
  through it is the healing process.
• 1:55:08
  But don't forget the second part.
• 1:55:10
  And I think
• 1:55:14
  when you talk about, you know, people getting very over careful with, with
• 1:55:19
  the horses, 'cause I've been there too.
• 1:55:21
  I've been so frozen where I felt I couldn't touch my horse
• 1:55:26
  'cause I was inevitably gonna do something that was not all right.
• 1:55:31
  And I think those are connected.
• 1:55:35
  I think it's that same thing where yes, we, we want to, we want to
• 1:55:41
  of course think about welfare.
• 1:55:43
  We want to do the best by our horses.
• 1:55:45
  We want to look at all those things and consider them, but we don't
• 1:55:49
  wanna get stuck there in a way that keeps us from seeking something
• 1:55:53
  that is joyful together, you know?
• 1:55:57
  Yeah.
• 1:55:58
  And I think.
• 1:56:00
  A lot of that.
• 1:56:01
  It depends on whether humans can find a way to, to have that second
• 1:56:08
  part of, okay, we're gonna spiral down, but then we're gonna spiral up.
• 1:56:13
  It's, it's that dynamic because that brings it back into life.
• 1:56:18
  Can and
• 1:56:18
  Rupert Isaacson: can we
• 1:56:18
  Kira Julius: do that
• 1:56:19
  Rupert Isaacson: with our horses as well?
• 1:56:20
  Yeah.
• 1:56:20
  If we find
• 1:56:20
  Kira Julius: ourselves Exactly.
• 1:56:21
  It brings it back into action.
• 1:56:22
  It brings you, 'cause there's nothing wrong with stepping back
• 1:56:26
  and considering what you're doing and assessing, do I need to change
• 1:56:31
  something and listening to your horse.
• 1:56:35
  Of course.
• 1:56:36
  But there's that thing, I, I felt that I was not there for my horse in
• 1:56:45
  a good way when I was stuck there.
• 1:56:49
  Meaning when I didn't dare to move, when I didn't dare to try anything.
• 1:56:53
  Because it kind of became that thing where everything had to be regulated,
• 1:56:58
  calm, and perfect at all times.
• 1:57:00
  That also puts pressure on your horse.
• 1:57:02
  Absolutely.
• 1:57:02
  That's a lot of, of pressure, you know, and it's not, it's
• 1:57:05
  not a great state to be.
• 1:57:07
  And I do know that the horse I was having at times, she
• 1:57:10
  always had a really tense jaw.
• 1:57:14
  Even though she was well trained, I was kind to her, it was harmonious
• 1:57:19
  and stuff, but she was never allowed to be anything other than.
• 1:57:25
  In some ways perfect.
• 1:57:28
  But meaning that she was, I never allowed her to be anything
• 1:57:30
  other than regulated and calm.
• 1:57:33
  You know?
• 1:57:34
  She always had to be in that place.
• 1:57:36
  And in some ways I feel that that also put tension into her.
• 1:57:41
  Whereas if I had allowed for more play for more fun from a movement,
• 1:57:48
  because so many times the thing that people nowadays call dysregulated is
• 1:57:54
  the thing that is actually regulating.
• 1:57:57
  It's a process of process getting regulated.
• 1:58:01
  Exactly.
• 1:58:02
  So not to take that.
• 1:58:03
  And I think that's where people get afraid when they see a horse do that.
• 1:58:07
  'cause they're like, something must be wrong.
• 1:58:09
  Meaning they could be, if you turn them loose in an arena, they could be running
• 1:58:13
  and bucking and, you know, doing things and be looking quite wild and people
• 1:58:19
  think, whoa, something must be wrong.
• 1:58:21
  But it could actually just be the process of this horse has energy.
• 1:58:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 1:58:26
  Kira Julius: And move that energy somewhere.
• 1:58:27
  And this is the process of getting back to a state where they are available
• 1:58:33
  Rupert Isaacson: the road.
• 1:58:33
  It's the road, it's the road to regulation.
• 1:58:34
  Absolutely.
• 1:58:35
  Kira Julius: Yes.
• 1:58:35
  Exactly.
• 1:58:36
  Rupert Isaacson: And, and what's so interesting too, is I, what, what you're
• 1:58:40
  saying makes me realize that of course the over desire to keep everything
• 1:58:47
  regulated all the time is none other than.
• 1:58:53
  The desire to control.
• 1:58:55
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:58:56
  Rupert Isaacson: And it's the same desire to control that was directed at
• 1:59:02
  say Me when I was a boy at that type of school where wild behavior would
• 1:59:07
  be instantly just physically punished.
• 1:59:09
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:59:09
  Unless you were doing it in a way that they wanted you to do it as in stick
• 1:59:14
  your bayonet into this sandbag or
• 1:59:16
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 1:59:17
  And it can be the same
• 1:59:17
  Rupert Isaacson: tackle this guy on the rugby field.
• 1:59:19
  Yeah.
• 1:59:19
  Kira Julius: It can be the same thing that you put on yourself when you're
• 1:59:22
  dealing with your mental health.
• 1:59:24
  Absolutely.
• 1:59:24
  You know, you say, I have to be regulated and it becomes this thing, it's another
• 1:59:29
  means of control and it, it's not helpful,
• 1:59:32
  Rupert Isaacson: but I also don't want to impose my dysregulation
• 1:59:35
  on somebody else because mm-hmm.
• 1:59:37
  That, that is another danger.
• 1:59:38
  Say, well, okay, so I, I have the right to be dysregulated, but that
• 1:59:43
  doesn't mean that, that I can then smash a bottle over your head.
• 1:59:46
  Yeah.
• 1:59:46
  Whether that's actually doing it or doing it in some emotional way.
• 1:59:50
  Yeah.
• 1:59:50
  Kira Julius: But that's, that's where we need, I think we probably
• 1:59:53
  in society, need a broader knowledge base of what tools help you.
• 1:59:58
  Because I learned a lot of that from working with people with autism because
• 2:00:03
  they have a much lower tolerance for not having the human needs met.
• 2:00:09
  So that it means now I know when I'm not feeling so great.
• 2:00:13
  Anything that will help Donatello.
• 2:00:16
  I can do for myself and I will feel better.
• 2:00:19
  So they have taught me that, you know?
• 2:00:21
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, I, I think what you've, you've, you've
• 2:00:23
  touched on there is this feeling of taking responsibility for, so
• 2:00:27
  Kira Julius: yeah,
• 2:00:27
  Rupert Isaacson: if I'm feeling dysregulated, I have to ask
• 2:00:30
  myself, even if I desire, my desire is to blame somebody else
• 2:00:36
  or take it out on somebody else.
• 2:00:37
  'cause you know, we're humans and we do that.
• 2:00:41
  There's that little part of me deep down that cries bullshit
• 2:00:43
  on myself and goes, nah, ru it's not that other person's fault.
• 2:00:47
  You're just projecting that.
• 2:00:48
  I mean, occasionally someone has actually done something, but it's, that's
• 2:00:53
  actually the minority of times really.
• 2:00:55
  It's, it's much
• 2:00:56
  more.
• 2:00:56
  Kira Julius: But still, you can still within that take
• 2:00:58
  responsibility for yourself.
• 2:00:59
  Yeah.
• 2:00:59
  Which is actually an empowering thing.
• 2:01:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
• 2:01:02
  So
• 2:01:03
  Kira Julius: I, in any case, it's a good thing to be able to do
• 2:01:07
  Rupert Isaacson: a hundred percent.
• 2:01:07
  And then that allows one to see a, a way through.
• 2:01:10
  Because also if I blame somebody else, then what I've done is I'm giving
• 2:01:15
  the solution over to that person.
• 2:01:16
  Yeah.
• 2:01:17
  So if I say you've, I feel this way because of you, then really the
• 2:01:22
  only way I can feel better is if you make someone unspecified change.
• 2:01:28
  That might be a complete surprise to you and that you may or may not do.
• 2:01:33
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 2:01:33
  Rupert Isaacson: But if I say, no, no, no, it lies with me, then
• 2:01:37
  I can go and do what I need to do for me regardless of somebody else.
• 2:01:42
  And that.
• 2:01:42
  Yeah.
• 2:01:42
  Could not be more
• 2:01:44
  Kira Julius: empowering.
• 2:01:44
  Right?
• 2:01:44
  Yeah.
• 2:01:44
  And that does not mean that other people cannot help you then do the
• 2:01:49
  things that will make you feel better.
• 2:01:50
  But then you're coming from a place rather than, I'm gonna take this out on you.
• 2:01:54
  You're coming from a place of saying, would you help me do this thing?
• 2:01:58
  Yes.
• 2:01:59
  That will get me to a better place.
• 2:02:00
  Which is a very different thing to come with,
• 2:02:02
  Rupert Isaacson: which involves love, right?
• 2:02:03
  Yeah.
• 2:02:03
  Which involves gratitude, which involves
• 2:02:05
  Kira Julius: exactly
• 2:02:06
  Rupert Isaacson: good emotions.
• 2:02:07
  Yes.
• 2:02:08
  Yes.
• 2:02:08
  It's so interesting.
• 2:02:09
  Kira Julius: It doesn't, so not, not meaning that it has to be a thing
• 2:02:11
  just because you take responsibility for it, that that isolates you and
• 2:02:15
  means you have to do it yourself.
• 2:02:18
  But it just puts you in a position where engaging with people is Yeah.
• 2:02:24
  As you say, coming from a loving place rather than from this place of I now
• 2:02:28
  have to use you so that I feel better.
• 2:02:31
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 2:02:32
  It's, it's, it's what's gone from our culture currently.
• 2:02:37
  I mean, there's aspects of it in certain subcultures within our culture, but we
• 2:02:41
  don't really have spiritual guidance.
• 2:02:43
  Yeah.
• 2:02:43
  In the, when you're with, as you know, when you're within nature all the time.
• 2:02:48
  And I think that's a lovely thing about horses is they are
• 2:02:50
  the living embodiment of nature.
• 2:02:52
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:02:52
  And we're dealing with an actual environment all the time, because
• 2:02:55
  that's what they need to thrive.
• 2:02:58
  Just being in nature is regulating, but also.
• 2:03:02
  Healing.
• 2:03:02
  It is its own spirituality.
• 2:03:04
  It is dah, dah, dah, dah.
• 2:03:05
  But it's still, there needs to be kind of a human focus to it.
• 2:03:09
  I feel each species probably has to have its own focus.
• 2:03:14
  So of course, within an indigenous human situation in nature, you have a shaman.
• 2:03:19
  You have a healer.
• 2:03:21
  Yeah.
• 2:03:21
  I have groups of them, those of us who have sought that out in our lives.
• 2:03:25
  And of course I have, I know you have, have found it immensely helpful because
• 2:03:30
  go figure is what humans have always done.
• 2:03:33
  But it's of course not really.
• 2:03:38
  And I guess where pilgrimage comes in and all, but it, it's, it's not really offered
• 2:03:43
  on the list of options usually these days.
• 2:03:46
  Kira Julius: Mm-hmm.
• 2:03:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Because despite the fact that we're in nature, whether we like
• 2:03:50
  it or not, we have a perception that we are not, and one of the great tools of
• 2:03:53
  that is to not have, what that's missing is that person who takes on that role
• 2:04:02
  within a community, the medicine person.
• 2:04:05
  And so in the absence of that, I often feel.
• 2:04:11
  We're quite lucky with those of us who work with autism because I often feel
• 2:04:15
  that I'm working kind of with a shaman when I'm next to an autistic person.
• 2:04:19
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:04:19
  And that they provide me often with those insights and those perspectives.
• 2:04:23
  Kira Julius: Yeah,
• 2:04:23
  Rupert Isaacson: absolutely.
• 2:04:24
  And because they're not competing with me in any way, there's,
• 2:04:27
  there's no ego involved.
• 2:04:28
  Yeah.
• 2:04:28
  And so I can, I can really learn from them in a way that
• 2:04:32
  my ego might defend itself from.
• 2:04:34
  Kira Julius: Mm-hmm.
• 2:04:34
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:04:35
  Rupert Isaacson: If I was trying to learn from someone neurotypical
• 2:04:37
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 2:04:37
  Even with a young child, just following and engaging with what they are
• 2:04:45
  engaging with will teach you so much because you're like, oh, they pay
• 2:04:50
  a lot of attention to this thing.
• 2:04:51
  And they were really in depth engaged with something natural out in the forest
• 2:04:56
  that you might've just walked past.
• 2:04:59
  And I think it just helps us rebuild that relationship with nature also.
• 2:05:04
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 2:05:05
  And, and you watch them, you really watch them face their fears.
• 2:05:10
  Kira Julius: Mm-hmm.
• 2:05:11
  Rupert Isaacson: And it's, I find it's really inspirational.
• 2:05:13
  One, one of the questions I often ask in trainings is, whether it's horse trainings
• 2:05:18
  or, or trainings on the therapeutic line with humans is you, the person who are at
• 2:05:23
  this training are wanting this horse or this human to make a change, a big change.
• 2:05:30
  You want this per kid to become verbal or you want this horse to learn
• 2:05:33
  how to go in a trailer or whatever.
• 2:05:35
  These are, this is a big deal.
• 2:05:36
  This is a big deal.
• 2:05:37
  Things you're asking big, huge changes.
• 2:05:40
  Yeah.
• 2:05:40
  What changes are you making?
• 2:05:41
  What changes are you engaged in?
• 2:05:44
  Are you currently learning another language?
• 2:05:46
  Are you currently doing something you currently don't want to do?
• 2:05:50
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:05:51
  But really in depth, engaging with it.
• 2:05:54
  And if the answer is no, then what tools have you got to help that other person
• 2:06:02
  with two legs or four to make a change?
• 2:06:06
  Because you are not making a change.
• 2:06:08
  They're gonna look to you for leadership.
• 2:06:11
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 2:06:13
  Yeah.
• 2:06:13
  That's a good point.
• 2:06:14
  Rupert Isaacson: So I know that you are now helping families and also
• 2:06:19
  helping people with their horses in quite a few locations that you, you
• 2:06:22
  know, you obviously you do it in Germany, you do it up in Denmark, you
• 2:06:25
  do it in the uk, you do it in Ireland.
• 2:06:27
  You, you help families, you help people, you have horses.
• 2:06:31
  You're about shortly about to start working a bit down in Spain as well.
• 2:06:34
  So you are mobile and you, you are available if people, can you
• 2:06:40
  also do stuff with people online?
• 2:06:42
  How do people.
• 2:06:44
  Get hold of you.
• 2:06:45
  Whether it's they want insights in starting their horse, if they want help
• 2:06:48
  with their kid, if they want help with themselves or some combo of the above.
• 2:06:53
  How do they get in touch with Kira and engage you?
• 2:06:58
  Kira Julius: Yeah, I mean, the best way is probably, I have a website.
• 2:07:02
  It's a, it's it's horse training focused.
• 2:07:05
  But if anyone is out there having, you know, questions about work with
• 2:07:13
  children, work with special needs, work with mental health, you can,
• 2:07:18
  you can still reach out even though the, the website at this point.
• 2:07:21
  'cause I'm still, I'm still building everything, you know.
• 2:07:22
  So, at this point there's just horse training information on there, but there's
• 2:07:29
  even, there's even a contact form on the other email addresses there, and
• 2:07:32
  you can just get in touch with me there.
• 2:07:35
  And that website is, or horse realms.com.
• 2:07:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Horse realms?
• 2:07:42
  Yeah.
• 2:07:42
  R-E-A-L-M-S-R-E-A-L-M-S,
• 2:07:45
  Kira Julius: yeah.
• 2:07:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Dot com.
• 2:07:46
  Horse realms.com.
• 2:07:47
  And there's an, there'll be an email link to you?
• 2:07:50
  Yeah.
• 2:07:50
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 2:07:50
  So you can, you can find me that if you, if you are a social media
• 2:07:54
  person, I am also on Instagram with.
• 2:07:58
  Varying activity though, but you know, my name there is very creatively Kira
• 2:08:05
  horses, so that's also easy if you wanna, you know, you can also kera horses on
• 2:08:10
  Rupert Isaacson: Instagram
• 2:08:10
  Kira Julius: cira.
• 2:08:11
  Yes.
• 2:08:12
  Rupert Isaacson: So
• 2:08:12
  Kira Julius: those would probably be the easiest.
• 2:08:14
  Rupert Isaacson: There.
• 2:08:15
  There were some things we didn't have time to, to, to touch on, but I'm sure
• 2:08:18
  you'll be able to talk with people about privately as they need to.
• 2:08:22
  I mean, you, you, you yourself use a lot of art in
• 2:08:26
  Kira Julius: Yes.
• 2:08:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Your own process.
• 2:08:27
  And you, you were talking about, you know, finding things that are about
• 2:08:32
  joy, which might not be, which might be parallel with, but not directly
• 2:08:36
  associated with the, the problem that you're looking to solve, whether it's
• 2:08:40
  with a human or yourself or a horse.
• 2:08:44
  And also, you know, the, the journeys you've made into the
• 2:08:49
  shamanic as and the natural as well.
• 2:08:52
  Yeah.
• 2:08:52
  But I think what I would say to people who might be considering is,
• 2:08:56
  you know, a Kira's really put her money where her mouth is with that
• 2:08:59
  and has sort of delved quite deep.
• 2:09:01
  So I know that the insights that she's got are of, of great value.
• 2:09:07
  Having gone through similar things myself.
• 2:09:10
  But also, you know, I can vouch for if you, if it's something really simple
• 2:09:14
  like you are starting a cult or you are running into some issue with your horse.
• 2:09:20
  This person really has got solutions for you as well as, as
• 2:09:25
  well as on the therapeutic end.
• 2:09:26
  Any last thoughts?
• 2:09:27
  Burning desires things people you'd like to be aware of go away with
• 2:09:32
  thinking about before we wrap?
• 2:09:34
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 2:09:34
  I'd just, I'd just say because there's such a big focus on healing these
• 2:09:39
  days, and I think that is great.
• 2:09:44
  I would encourage people to just take the perspective of the healing
• 2:09:51
  process is there in service of your life, not the other way around.
• 2:09:57
  You know what I mean?
• 2:09:58
  So do the healing in order to live.
• 2:10:02
  Don't spend your life healing because the, the living is also
• 2:10:08
  healing, but you know what I mean?
• 2:10:11
  Yeah.
• 2:10:11
  The kind of thing, the thing you consider the, the work you do to heal
• 2:10:14
  have that be in service of your life.
• 2:10:17
  Yeah.
• 2:10:18
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 2:10:19
  Love that.
• 2:10:21
  Yeah.
• 2:10:21
  Get out there and live.
• 2:10:22
  Kira Julius: Yes.
• 2:10:23
  Yes.
• 2:10:24
  And you will find that, that, for me, that was, that was a truly healing thing.
• 2:10:29
  Writing in your storyline for your life.
• 2:10:31
  Yeah.
• 2:10:32
  Which only happens as you live it
• 2:10:37
  Rupert Isaacson: with all its
• 2:10:38
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 2:10:39
  Rupert Isaacson: Varying things.
• 2:10:40
  Yes.
• 2:10:42
  Well, thank you.
• 2:10:43
  Thanks for coming on.
• 2:10:44
  Kira Julius: My pleasure.
• 2:10:44
  Thank you.
• 2:10:45
  Thank you for having me on.
• 2:10:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so horse realms.com
• 2:10:48
  and yeah, hopefully you'll come back on the show and we'll be
• 2:10:53
  able to see what you've done next.
• 2:10:55
  Kira Julius: Yeah.
• 2:10:56
  Thank you so much.
• 2:10:57
  Rupert Isaacson: All right.
• 2:10:58
  See you on the next one.
• 2:10:59
  Bye-bye.
• 2:10:59
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• 2:11:00
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