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Having your VISA Declined at the Threshold · Romancing the Threshold

0:23
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Romancing the Threshold.
0:25
I'm Vanessa Couto,
0:26
your guide through the liminal spaces where transformation
0:29
beckons.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: Today's conversation is with my dear friend,
0:34
SPEAKER_01: Jessie Marie,
0:35
who I first met years ago when she was a different kind of
0:38
threshold guide,
0:40
SPEAKER_01: working at a personal growth and spiritual bookstore.
0:44
SPEAKER_01: Since then,
0:45
SPEAKER_01: we've shared countless croissants and lattes,
0:48
SPEAKER_01: diving into the questions people are too afraid to ask themselves.
0:53
Her journey led her from guiding people through spiritual texts
0:57
to an unexpected
0:58
SPEAKER_01: realm,
0:59
SPEAKER_01: adult retail,
1:01
SPEAKER_01: where she helped people navigate one of our most vulnerable thresholds,
1:06
SPEAKER_01: the place where desire meets shame,
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SPEAKER_01: where we seek quick fixes for transformations hungry for depth.
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What happens when someone walks into a sex shop desperate to
1:19
fix their body?
1:20
SPEAKER_01: How do these deliberately unsexy spaces,
1:24
SPEAKER_01: think IKEA meets Home Depot for pleasure,
1:27
SPEAKER_01: become unexpected confessionals?
1:30
SPEAKER_01: And why do we keep trying to purchase our way past the patient work of
1:36
SPEAKER_01: understanding our own changing desires?
1:39
Jessie Marie and I explore how she became an accidental
1:43
threshold guide in this
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SPEAKER_01: most intimate territory,
1:47
SPEAKER_01: meeting people in what we call the trenches of their struggles.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: We talk about the art of asking better questions with proper foreplay,
1:57
SPEAKER_01: not premature answers,
1:59
and why sometimes the least magical spaces create the most
2:03
safety for revelation.
2:06
SPEAKER_01: This isn't just about sex or retail.
2:09
It's about the universal pattern of arriving at any threshold
2:14
convinced we are
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SPEAKER_01: broken,
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SPEAKER_01: seeking external solutions to internal disconnections.
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Because sometimes the most profound threshold guides aren't
2:25
wearing robes or
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SPEAKER_01: carrying talismans.
2:28
They're wearing name tags and know exactly which lube won't
2:33
stain your sheets.
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So pour yourself something delicious and let's romance this
2:38
particular edge together.
2:43
SPEAKER_01: So, Jessie Marie, how are you doing?
2:45
SPEAKER_01: Hello, very well.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
2:49
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's nice to have you here doing the podcast with me today.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: We have a whole set up in my office, so it's in person, which is nice.
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SPEAKER_01: It's not just Zoom.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, how are you feeling about what we're going to talk about?
3:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm feeling excited because I love deep questions.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: I sometimes have a hard time with small talk.
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SPEAKER_00: I understand its purposes for getting the conversation going,
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but I love a deep question and questions that I have not
3:23
thought of personally,
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SPEAKER_00: I think tickle something.
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SPEAKER_00: in my brain that is like extra tantalizing.
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SPEAKER_00: And I know that you are the queen of deep, provocative questions.
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SPEAKER_00: So I'm very excited to explore this threshold with you.
3:40
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: Crossing with me.
3:41
Well,
3:42
we have been talking about having you over for the podcast a
3:46
few times.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: We've...
3:48
SPEAKER_01: met at a French bakery, had enough of our croissants.
3:51
SPEAKER_01: Never enough.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: Never enough.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: That's true.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: Who are we kidding?
3:56
SPEAKER_01: But we talked about,
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SPEAKER_01: Lance,
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SPEAKER_01: about the idea of romancing the threshold of relationships,
4:02
SPEAKER_01: sexuality.
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SPEAKER_01: And the reason I wanted to bring you in for this conversation is that
4:09
SPEAKER_01: You know,
4:09
SPEAKER_01: you have been on the other side of working in the sex industry,
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SPEAKER_01: but in the retail side,
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SPEAKER_01: helping facilitate people to talk about very intimate,
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SPEAKER_01: very vulnerable aspects of their lives.
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SPEAKER_01: And you've got to see it from the retail side,
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SPEAKER_01: as well as sitting with people and having these deep conversations.
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SPEAKER_01: So I thought that bringing you to the podcast would help.
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SPEAKER_01: bring in a different lens to what is romancing,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: that kind of threshold,
4:40
SPEAKER_01: a very vulnerable threshold.
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SPEAKER_01: And so that was kind of my original idea when I started thinking,
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SPEAKER_01: who do I want to bring to have conversations?
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And,
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and for those who know me,
4:52
like I've been on this tear of reading romance novels.
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SPEAKER_01: So it brings in a lot of questions too,
4:58
SPEAKER_01: because you see these characters going through wild transformations and
5:04
SPEAKER_01: that are brought up around sexuality through the books.
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SPEAKER_01: And I thought,
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who better to ask than Jessie Marie to bring in a more grounded
5:15
experience of being
5:16
SPEAKER_01: the way I see it,
5:18
SPEAKER_01: kind of in the trenches there,
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SPEAKER_01: meeting people at that place.
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SPEAKER_01: So that was a little long intro here.
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But what do you think about that,
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your experience of talking to people like that?
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I think it's an apt way to describe it because even before
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working in the adult
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SPEAKER_00: retail industry,
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SPEAKER_00: I think I've always been meeting people in the trenches because of...
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SPEAKER_00: my interest in always going a little bit deeper,
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SPEAKER_00: a little bit further than maybe what people say on the surface.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's just my own curiosity, you know, as a kid.
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SPEAKER_00: And now is like, I guess, reparenting my child inside myself.
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I have always had such a deep curiosity about people and why
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they do what they do.
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how their experience can be different from mine and the same as
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mine all in one.
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SPEAKER_00: So yes,
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SPEAKER_00: now I kind of see myself on this side of things as like,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: relationship facilitator.
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SPEAKER_00: But yes, honestly, provoking almost those deeper conversations around
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sexuality pleasure intimacy and not only with other people but
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with ourselves right
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SPEAKER_00: yeah you've said many times
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SPEAKER_00: when you can't have those conversations with yourself first,
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SPEAKER_00: how are you supposed to explore or discuss with someone else too?
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SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think that's very true.
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SPEAKER_00: I am,
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I think I'm always meeting people in the trenches and trying to
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meet them where
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SPEAKER_00: they're at almost too,
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SPEAKER_00: but also challenging them at the same time.
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SPEAKER_00: But in a,
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SPEAKER_00: in a very soft,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm trying,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm always trying to challenge someone in a way,
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SPEAKER_00: in a way a best friend would,
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SPEAKER_00: you know?
7:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: I think,
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SPEAKER_01: as you said,
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SPEAKER_01: I was thinking in a Venusian way,
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SPEAKER_01: sort of like,
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I'm going to get you to cross a little further into the
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threshold that perhaps that
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person's right on the edge by asking questions that take them
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there in a way that's
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SPEAKER_01: very,
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SPEAKER_01: perhaps,
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SPEAKER_01: diplomatic,
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SPEAKER_01: right?
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SPEAKER_01: We were talking about this idea of being diplomatic.
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SPEAKER_01: You know, we might not rush them through those questions.
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SPEAKER_01: That might be too shocking for them, but you could...
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kind of get them there and see how it goes and how might they
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stop and think about
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SPEAKER_01: how do I really feel about this?
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SPEAKER_01: What is it really underneath?
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SPEAKER_01: And that takes a bit of handling.
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It takes a little bit of being able to create the container for
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people to cross.
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SPEAKER_00: That, what do they say?
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SPEAKER_00: Like lead fist in a velvet glove.
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SPEAKER_00: I think I'm misquoting it.
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SPEAKER_00: But yeah, like, you know, the hammer wrapped in some sort of like fur.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: So you're still like pushing them, but in a way that...
8:29
SPEAKER_00: I guess,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: in ways that good therapists,
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SPEAKER_00: good best friends,
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SPEAKER_00: good guides,
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SPEAKER_00: mentors,
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SPEAKER_00: not that I think of myself necessarily as a guide or a mentor,
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SPEAKER_00: but I feel like I'm always thinking about questions.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm always questioning.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: And so if I meet someone at a place,
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SPEAKER_00: at a threshold where they're at,
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SPEAKER_00: and they're not questioning something,
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SPEAKER_00: they're taking,
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they're maybe taking something for granted that they haven't
9:02
probed into any
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SPEAKER_00: further.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm like...
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SPEAKER_00: Well, there's the juiciness, right?
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SPEAKER_00: There's where the real questions are.
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You've come at something from this perspective,
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but is that the only perspective?
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SPEAKER_00: Is that the only truth that you contain on the subject?
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SPEAKER_00: Or is there a lot more to explore?
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SPEAKER_00: So there's always more to explore is the answer.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_01: I was thinking how working with clients myself and coaching,
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sometimes I always thought that the presenting issue was just
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the doorway.
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SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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With the questions that I would have started with just to get
9:39
them going and then
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SPEAKER_01: helping them ask better questions.
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SPEAKER_01: The presenting issue might not even be the thing.
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SPEAKER_01: It's just the way they cross.
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SPEAKER_01: The deeper question is what it's at, what is really happening.
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SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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And I feel that when we are some kind of facilitator or coach
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or counselor,
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we're trying to help people ask better questions because we
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make questions too
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SPEAKER_01: quickly and then we have premature answers.
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SPEAKER_01: It's premature ejaculation all around.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you said because I thought I immediately thought of that.
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You need the right foreplay or the questions so you get the
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most amount of pleasure.
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SPEAKER_00: And I do like being surprised as long as it's like a pleasant surprise.
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SPEAKER_00: So I do like it's like you like giving gifts.
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I like when I'm sitting with someone and I get the gift of them
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being surprised by
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SPEAKER_00: their own answer,
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SPEAKER_00: by their own questions.
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SPEAKER_00: They've surprised themself.
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SPEAKER_00: And,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: if they surprise me,
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SPEAKER_00: too,
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SPEAKER_00: there is that,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: inherent,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: kind of,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: giddy joy in the,
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SPEAKER_00: oh,
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you went a little further than you thought you could or you
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even knew existed.
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SPEAKER_00: This is exciting.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: This is exciting, yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: Now we're going somewhere.
10:53
SPEAKER_01: Now we're going somewhere.
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SPEAKER_01: I feel that way.
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SPEAKER_01: I felt that,
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SPEAKER_01: too,
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SPEAKER_01: when teaching,
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SPEAKER_01: when all of a sudden you can see it in their eyes,
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SPEAKER_01: like something clicked.
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And so with a client or a friend that when they click and they
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see the pattern,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm like,
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SPEAKER_01: ooh,
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SPEAKER_01: now we're there.
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SPEAKER_01: Now in Good Dawn, this is juicy.
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SPEAKER_00: Much like,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: when you get to the good parts in the romance novels that you're saying,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
11:17
SPEAKER_00: because a romance novel isn't all sex scenes all the way through.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, maybe it's peppered with a few really steamy ones.
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SPEAKER_00: But a lot of it is,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
11:28
following these characters and their realizations about
11:32
themselves through this
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SPEAKER_00: journey.
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SPEAKER_00: And that... So, like, the juicy parts of it...
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SPEAKER_00: They have to be earned, right?
11:40
SPEAKER_01: They have to be earned.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
11:42
If you will,
11:42
I sometimes think it's the whole book is like a big foreplay.
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SPEAKER_01: The whole story is a foreplay.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: So when you get to the juicy part, you're like, oh, this makes sense.
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SPEAKER_01: Now I'm ready for it.
11:53
SPEAKER_01: Now I'm ready for it.
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SPEAKER_01: And that's usually when the book is good.
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When it's too soon,
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it might leave you a little bit like,
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well,
11:59
that was a bit,
12:00
you know.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: Out of the left field.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: Again, too premature.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: Too premature.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: It all comes down to bowel movements and sexuality.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: You know, that's really it.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: The French would agree.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: Right?
12:12
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: Our croissants would agree with us.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: The croissants would.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: You see,
12:17
SPEAKER_01: it was good that we met at the,
12:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:19
SPEAKER_01: we were having our talks and meetings at the French cafe.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:25
SPEAKER_01: So here's a question.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: From your experience of really working in the retail side,
12:32
what was one kind of thing you kept seeing again and again that
12:37
showed up?
12:40
SPEAKER_00: There's a handful.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: I think the most prevalent was...
12:47
SPEAKER_00: Seeing people walk into the space and really wanting a quick fix.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: Walking in with an issue, a problem.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: what have you,
13:03
SPEAKER_00: and being like,
13:04
I want to buy something that's going to fix this ongoing issue
13:09
or problem.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: And asking me to tell me what to buy that will fix me,
13:17
SPEAKER_00: that will fix my relationship,
13:19
SPEAKER_00: that will fix this problem that I have.
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So I think that is the biggest thing that I saw that that
13:27
surprised me when I
13:28
SPEAKER_00: started working in the adult retail world.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: Cause I think you think,
13:35
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:35
SPEAKER_00: you're gonna,
13:36
SPEAKER_00: and we did get the people that would come in and be like,
13:39
SPEAKER_00: I've never had an orgasm before help.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: Um,
13:44
SPEAKER_00: but honestly,
13:45
SPEAKER_00: it's just,
13:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:46
SPEAKER_00: people coming in and you,
13:49
I think some people would be surprised and some people wouldn't
13:53
at the level of
13:55
SPEAKER_00: vulnerability and the level of complete honesty that people give,
14:01
SPEAKER_00: um,
14:02
SPEAKER_00: um,
14:03
SPEAKER_00: Service workers and also with a background in in food service myself.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: It's true.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: I think they're in it.
14:13
If I want to kind of connect it back to like this world of like
14:17
romance novels and
14:19
SPEAKER_00: spicy literature,
14:20
SPEAKER_00: we're kind of like the help.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: Right.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: We're we're the butler, the servant, the serving maid.
14:27
We're the we're almost like these background characters in
14:31
their main story that
14:32
SPEAKER_00: are often offering them this sage advice.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: Right.
14:36
We're because most like servants are worldly in a way that
14:41
their masters aren't.
14:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: And so they're coming to us and saying, help me fix this thing.
14:50
And then because there is you cannot buy unless unless you have
14:55
like a flat tire
14:57
SPEAKER_00: and you're buying a new tire for your car.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: There aren't those.
15:00
I can buy this and it's going to fix this deeply rooted human
15:04
problem that I have.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: So then you go,
15:07
SPEAKER_00: OK,
15:07
SPEAKER_00: have a conversation with me because,
15:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
15:11
SPEAKER_00: I can tell you what the best make and models are.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: What's the newest, shiniest thing, what this bells and whistles do.
15:18
But you wouldn't be a good sales person if you couldn't tailor
15:26
your sale to the
15:27
SPEAKER_00: person so that then they're happy about it.
15:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:29
Because like the best salespeople,
15:31
they're going to maybe sell you an ideal.
15:35
They're going to sell you a story behind a thing that's going
15:39
to make you feel good
15:40
SPEAKER_00: too,
15:42
SPEAKER_00: rather than just a thing.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: Because if I sell you just like the biggest,
15:48
SPEAKER_00: most expensive thing that we have right now,
15:50
SPEAKER_00: you're going to take it home.
15:51
You might enjoy it for a little while,
15:53
but it's really not going to fulfill you.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: Right.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: And because we also live in the culture that we live in right now,
15:59
SPEAKER_00: You're going to be upset about that.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: You're going to come back.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: You're going to try to return it.
16:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: And then you're going to be.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: So I'm also helping myself down the road, too.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: And if I can tailor this to you,
16:10
if we have what inherently has to be a vulnerable conversation
16:15
in which you tell me
16:17
a lot of things about yourself that maybe you've never told
16:20
anyone before or you
16:21
SPEAKER_00: even told yourself or your partner or your partner,
16:25
SPEAKER_00: then I can tailor this sale.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: So you're going to be happier about it.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: So you're going to feel fulfilled that or I don't sell you anything,
16:35
but at least you're going to walk away feeling happier rather
16:39
than like walk away
16:40
SPEAKER_00: with just a something.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: And then I might have to deal with you later on in a not so happy.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: So in all that you said there, I've seen like.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: It's quite an interesting threshold to inhabit.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: It's almost like I see the place,
16:55
SPEAKER_01: the retail place is selling these toys,
16:59
SPEAKER_01: these accessories and all these things as sort of the threshold.
17:03
And we go to the the client comes to the threshold and they're
17:07
wanting something
17:08
SPEAKER_01: that's going to help them.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: get what they need.
17:12
SPEAKER_01: And so here's a few things that's interesting.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: The vulnerability of having to,
17:16
SPEAKER_01: for both parts,
17:17
for them to speak to what is it that they want and what they
17:20
are not getting.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: So now they're speaking with a stranger.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: You yourself being the stranger,
17:26
having to listen to all these stories and at the same time be
17:30
in this delicate
17:31
SPEAKER_01: position to try to do well by the client,
17:36
SPEAKER_01: but by also having to do well by the store itself.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: Because as you said,
17:40
SPEAKER_01: in the world we live in today,
17:42
SPEAKER_01: people can come back upset and leave bad reviews and all those things.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:47
SPEAKER_01: And so it's a very delicate position.
17:48
I want to try to help you because you're bringing something so
17:53
vulnerable that you need.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: You're expressing a desire that,
17:56
SPEAKER_01: like you said,
17:56
SPEAKER_01: you might not have said to yourself or your partner.
17:58
SPEAKER_01: And I have to try to give you something that could be helpful.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: And yet,
18:05
SPEAKER_01: because you're curious and you're looking at how people,
18:07
SPEAKER_01: what's really underneath you thinking,
18:09
SPEAKER_01: what is the real deal here?
18:11
SPEAKER_01: It's not just the toy that is the thing that they're coming for.
18:15
SPEAKER_01: What's the real question?
18:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: And I think I...
18:20
SPEAKER_00: I,
18:20
SPEAKER_00: in some ways,
18:21
SPEAKER_00: can be an exception to a lot of people can work the,
18:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
18:25
SPEAKER_00: any retail,
18:26
SPEAKER_00: adult,
18:27
SPEAKER_00: the adult industry or not,
18:29
SPEAKER_00: and not have this perspective.
18:31
But constantly it was a dance for me of,
18:34
yeah,
18:35
how much do,
18:37
how much time do I take?
18:38
SPEAKER_00: How much time do I have?
18:39
SPEAKER_00: How much do I probe?
18:41
SPEAKER_00: In what ways?
18:43
SPEAKER_00: because I am so curious,
18:45
SPEAKER_00: um,
18:46
SPEAKER_00: you know,
18:46
SPEAKER_00: about the answers and about your,
18:48
SPEAKER_00: your reasoning behind them.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: Um,
18:52
but I think that's also why I was good at selling things is
18:55
because I have that,
18:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
18:57
SPEAKER_00: I don't,
18:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to hear your,
18:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm not here as a therapist.
19:01
SPEAKER_00: I can't be in this, in this space.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: I could be if it was one-on-one in a different, but not in a retail shop.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: Um,
19:09
SPEAKER_00: So it's almost like these like mini doses of that,
19:13
SPEAKER_00: that can almost be a little bit more,
19:16
SPEAKER_00: more of a rush because I'm trying to do this quickly,
19:20
SPEAKER_00: but I'm also trying to adhere to my own truth.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: Um,
19:28
SPEAKER_00: and not just,
19:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
19:29
SPEAKER_00: not just sell you something and send you,
19:32
SPEAKER_00: send you on down the,
19:33
SPEAKER_00: down the road and,
19:34
SPEAKER_00: So it is a it is a dance.
19:36
It's a it's a timed dance of how how much do we get into and
19:40
how long do we have?
19:42
Because there are folks who will just like I'm going to start
19:45
right on in and all my trauma.
19:47
And I would have to for the sake of my other co-workers and
19:51
other people that were
19:52
SPEAKER_00: maybe shopping who didn't want to overhear.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: This trauma.
19:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: Also be very delicate that that,
19:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:00
SPEAKER_00: metal fist in a velvet glove and be like,
20:02
SPEAKER_00: OK,
20:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm you know,
20:04
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm hearing what you're saying,
20:05
but I need to I need to stop you because this isn't the space
20:08
for you to to talk
20:10
SPEAKER_00: about that right now.
20:11
But I'm like honoring that you feel comfortable enough to do
20:14
that with me.
20:15
But we're going to have to now dance skirt around this because
20:20
it's it's it's a
20:22
SPEAKER_00: little too much,
20:22
SPEAKER_00: a little too vast,
20:23
SPEAKER_00: a little too big for the time and space that we have right now.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: But now that I know that I still can,
20:30
SPEAKER_00: you know,
20:30
SPEAKER_00: I can dance this dance better with you because I have that understanding.
20:35
And I also have that understanding that you are deeply ready to
20:39
talk about these things.
20:40
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: You are you are a water balloon.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: Ready to let this out.
20:47
So I can also guide you in a way of like probably talking to
20:51
someone about this
20:52
SPEAKER_00: kind of stuff would be helpful.
20:54
So maybe you're going to get something and then you're going to
20:57
buy a book or I can
20:59
SPEAKER_00: guide you to a podcast or to someone's website or even a therapist in the
21:04
neighborhood who deals with this so that you can continue your
21:07
journey together.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: Without me?
21:10
SPEAKER_00: Because now I know a little bit more.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: Because, like, yeah.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of people who will walk in.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: And this is,
21:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:17
SPEAKER_00: like,
21:18
SPEAKER_00: same for baristas and waiters and all the – where it's just,
21:23
SPEAKER_00: like,
21:23
SPEAKER_00: all of a sudden they're going to start telling you,
21:24
SPEAKER_00: like,
21:25
SPEAKER_00: bartenders.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: Bartenders, yeah.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: You know, there's that rope.
21:28
SPEAKER_00: Hair stylist, yeah.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: People are just ready.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: And there's almost even more – and I think –
21:34
There's more safety sometimes in telling a stranger because the
21:38
stranger is not
21:39
SPEAKER_00: connected to your life at all.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:41
They're not going to they're going to have less judgment
21:44
inherently because they don't know you.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: They don't know your story.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: You haven't you haven't hurt them in any way.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: You haven't offended them.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: You don't have history.
21:53
So they can hear your story with less judgment and it gives you
21:57
this understanding.
21:58
Freedom of space to kind of like when we put on a mask or take
22:03
off a mask,
22:05
SPEAKER_00: be more yourself because you're not there.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: You don't know what the image is that you that they want you to uphold.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: They don't really they don't know you.
22:13
SPEAKER_00: They don't have an agenda.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: They don't have an agenda.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: They're not.
22:17
The mirror is almost more truly yourself being reflected back
22:22
to you because you
22:24
SPEAKER_00: don't know them and they don't know you.
22:27
SPEAKER_00: So,
22:27
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
22:27
there is profound healing in talking to strangers and also
22:32
having the courage to
22:34
SPEAKER_00: continue that with people who are not strangers,
22:38
because there's a whole mess of people who will get really
22:40
vulnerable with
22:41
SPEAKER_00: strangers,
22:42
SPEAKER_00: but then never continue that.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: never help heal those things.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: They just again, stay on the surface level.
22:50
I feel like they never cross the bigger threshold,
22:53
which you have to go do the inner work.
22:55
That is to talk to the people who matter in their lives,
22:59
who are involved in this situation.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: They're yelling through the doorway, but they're not stepping through it.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: As you're telling this story,
23:06
SPEAKER_01: I was remembering when I was in my teens,
23:08
when I first really thought I want to get trained in psychology
23:13
and all this,
23:13
because I was traveling by train and this older woman told me
23:17
some serious family
23:18
SPEAKER_01: secrets and
23:20
SPEAKER_01: And without me, I mean, I was 15, you know, and she just gave it to me.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: She was this older woman.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: And I remember at that moment thinking...
23:27
SPEAKER_01: yeah, this is interesting.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to need some training.
23:30
And then later in life,
23:32
teaching,
23:32
I would have students come and tell me things.
23:35
SPEAKER_01: And I started feeling, I need some training.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: I can't just listen to this.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: It's too much.
23:41
SPEAKER_01: But not everybody can or will want to do that.
23:44
But what I'm also finding interesting is that it's more the
23:48
space where this
23:49
SPEAKER_01: happened,
23:49
SPEAKER_01: which is sexuality.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: We're going to this place to...
23:56
SPEAKER_01: Purchase something,
23:57
SPEAKER_01: acquire something that has to do with our relationship with sex,
24:02
SPEAKER_01: sensuality,
24:03
SPEAKER_01: pleasure,
24:04
SPEAKER_01: the body.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: And so much gets focused on this toy or this thing is going to help me.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is an interesting space because...
24:17
SPEAKER_00: Honestly,
24:19
sex shops are kind of stripped of a deeper sexuality because
24:24
the nature of them is
24:26
SPEAKER_00: so focused on products and selling things.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, there are some that, you know, delve deeper into that.
24:35
But you also think about people's comfort levels of going to
24:40
certain places,
24:42
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:42
SPEAKER_00: going to like a smaller queer place.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: like focused run staffed sex shop versus like an Adam and Eve,
24:52
SPEAKER_00: like a big,
24:53
SPEAKER_00: like a big retail across,
24:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
24:56
SPEAKER_00: countries kind of thing.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: They feel different.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: And I do,
25:02
SPEAKER_00: I do stand by,
25:03
SPEAKER_00: they're kind of stripped from,
25:09
SPEAKER_00: they're almost the like least sexy place to be honest.
25:13
SPEAKER_00: Cause it's so,
25:15
SPEAKER_00: the inherent nature of capitalism and selling things like
25:22
It's like trying to go into like a hardware store and you're
25:26
feeling to feel sexy.
25:28
Like I think it's when people walk into the to the shops and
25:32
they feel like excited and sexy.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: I often think like,
25:37
SPEAKER_00: oh,
25:37
it's you interacting with your own sexuality out in public
25:42
rather than this space
25:44
SPEAKER_00: is inherently sexy.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: Because I don't think that they are.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: Again, I'm going to use that hardware word.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: Like you're going to buy a tool to get a thing done.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: And if you feel sexy about that, then that's on you.
25:55
But that's you don't make that about about me or about the
26:00
other people that are in
26:01
SPEAKER_00: the shop kind of thing.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: So I think that is also why people feel very uncomfortable.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: There, because sex is a very intimate, vulnerable space to be in.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: And so if you're in a space that is all about sex,
26:16
SPEAKER_00: but it's stripped from of that sexiness,
26:19
SPEAKER_00: it's kind of a very empty,
26:22
SPEAKER_00: odd place to be in.
26:24
So I think it does help to have those conversations in that
26:28
space because you're
26:29
SPEAKER_00: like,
26:30
SPEAKER_00: we're surrounded by almost like sex tools,
26:32
SPEAKER_00: sex objects,
26:34
SPEAKER_00: sex accoutrement,
26:36
SPEAKER_00: but it's all devoid of its sexiness.
26:39
So it becomes a very like conversational thing,
26:44
which can,
26:45
I think,
26:46
give people
26:47
More confidence in talking about it because it gives that it
26:50
puts you in a
26:51
SPEAKER_00: different perspective of it versus,
26:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:54
if you're going to go and going to a strip club where it's a
26:58
lot more in your face.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: Like in a sex shop, it's just like, yep, these are these things.
27:05
And we're going to like it always interested me when people
27:09
came in and they were
27:11
SPEAKER_00: like,
27:11
SPEAKER_00: oh,
27:11
SPEAKER_00: I have a lot of knowledge about this stuff.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes,
27:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:16
SPEAKER_00: the customers,
27:17
clients would come in and have more knowledge about something
27:20
than I did because
27:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm supposed to have this broad range knowledge.
27:24
And then I have my own passions and interests and things that I
27:28
can nerd out or geek out about.
27:31
But when they come in and they have this air of,
27:35
I'm going to surprise you.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, no, not in this space.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: You could probably do some things that are surprising,
27:41
SPEAKER_00: but it'll also get you kicked out of the shop.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: But when they come in and they're like, oh, I know more than you.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: It's like, yeah, that's also okay.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: I don't have to be...
27:54
SPEAKER_00: I don't have to have a PhD in this one toy in order to sell it to you.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: In order to know about the things.
28:02
SPEAKER_00: But then I also am like,
28:03
SPEAKER_00: what are you trying to hide behind your very,
28:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm so capable,
28:07
SPEAKER_00: I know so much.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: Most of the time, I think it's just they want to be part of a community.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: It's such an interesting place to stand.
28:15
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm thinking how much you have to know a lot, know enough.
28:20
SPEAKER_01: And then the whole idea that the place itself that sells the toys,
28:26
SPEAKER_01: that sells the possibility of more pleasure in sex is devoid of...
28:33
SPEAKER_01: of the sensuality, the vibe, if you will.
28:38
SPEAKER_01: It's almost like Ikea meets Home Depot, but it's sex toys in a way.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: But I think you couldn't sell them.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: You couldn't have it be a shop without that.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: Because again,
28:50
SPEAKER_00: to use like the strip club,
28:52
SPEAKER_00: you're being sold an experience,
28:56
SPEAKER_00: a sexiness,
28:57
SPEAKER_00: a vibe,
28:58
SPEAKER_00: a pleasure,
28:58
SPEAKER_00: a deep erotic passion.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: The moment you walk through the doors,
29:04
SPEAKER_00: But there is the behind the scenes.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:06
SPEAKER_00: Like any good theater, right?
29:10
SPEAKER_00: The strippers,
29:11
SPEAKER_00: the dancers,
29:12
SPEAKER_00: the dancers behind the scenes,
29:15
SPEAKER_00: they're going about it very mundanely.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: They have a whole life.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: They're putting their stuff on.
29:21
SPEAKER_00: They're flossing their teeth.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: They're doing whatever they're doing backstage.
29:25
SPEAKER_00: That is not a sexy place.
29:28
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: Like any backstage of a theater,
29:31
SPEAKER_00: like it can have that thrill,
29:33
the excitement of when you go out onto the stage and you're
29:37
putting on this act,
29:39
SPEAKER_00: you're enacting this experience.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: But it's the same with the sex shops.
29:43
SPEAKER_00: Like if they were sexy,
29:45
it'd be really hard to sell people things and have these
29:49
conversations because
29:50
you'd be so caught up in the whirlwind of emotions and acting
29:55
this out and not
29:57
SPEAKER_00: acting this out.
30:00
they are like you said they're helping you prep you for an
30:04
experience that you want
30:05
to have you haven't had that experience yet but you're
30:08
gathering the tools to have
30:10
an experience to explore to to put on a play with someone else
30:15
or someone others uh
30:18
SPEAKER_00: So,
30:19
SPEAKER_00: yeah,
30:21
it's fascinating to think about all these facets of place that
30:30
are maybe different
30:31
SPEAKER_00: than the story that we're told about them inherently.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: As I can see, like you were saying, in a way, it has to be stripped.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to even have these conversations.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: It actually,
30:44
SPEAKER_01: in some ways,
30:45
can help people feel safe to talk about it because now it's not
30:50
an issue that I can
30:51
SPEAKER_01: put all my feelings into.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: I can talk about it with,
30:55
SPEAKER_01: I feel like,
30:56
SPEAKER_01: the Aquarian distance of,
30:57
SPEAKER_01: like,
30:58
SPEAKER_01: we're talking about the mechanics of this.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm not talking about how I actually feel safe.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: Perhaps the shame, the abandonment, the desire, whatever it might be.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: But I get to be removed from it.
31:11
And in some ways it can help people then perhaps get a little
31:15
closer to what the
31:16
SPEAKER_01: thing they're having issues with.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
31:19
SPEAKER_01: And granted, I'm talking about here as if everybody's having issues.
31:22
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's not really the case.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: You're just going there to get some accoutrements and that's all good.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: Which is true.
31:28
SPEAKER_00: You're just going there to get some lube and whatever else.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:33
SPEAKER_00: And then you're heading out.
31:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're heading out.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: Not everybody needs to be doing, you know, deep healing work.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to imply that.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: But in some of the people you got to talk to,
31:47
SPEAKER_01: what are some...
31:48
SPEAKER_01: I guess we talked about this when we met at the coffee shop before.
31:53
Patterns you noticed that popped up again and again that you're
31:56
like,
31:57
oh,
31:57
this is interesting.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: This is across genders.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm seeing this.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: That's a really good one.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: Because I think and feel that what I saw across genders...
32:13
SPEAKER_00: is people thinking that they are inherently broken.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: People thinking that they themselves need to be fixed.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: They need something to fix them.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: that their body, their mind is not working correctly.
32:31
So help me fix it so that it'll work the way that society tells
32:36
me it should work,
32:38
SPEAKER_00: that my family tells me it should work,
32:41
SPEAKER_00: that my partner is telling me or wishing that it would work.
32:46
So it's a lot of people coming in with deep-rooted shame about
32:52
themselves and how
32:54
they are or aren't performing sex the way that they think that
33:00
they should be or
33:02
SPEAKER_00: the way that someone else is hoping they will show up.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: And that is across gender, really.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: Cause you get a lot of,
33:13
SPEAKER_00: a lot of,
33:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
33:16
SPEAKER_00: folks with vulvas who are coming in and they're just like,
33:20
SPEAKER_00: I can't get aroused.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm so dry.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: You know, I just like, nothing feels good.
33:27
What helped me buy something that will help me feel that will
33:31
help me feel and get wet.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:35
And I'm like,
33:36
OK,
33:36
well,
33:36
you know,
33:37
we we've got we've got some things for that.
33:39
But I want you to have maybe a deeper conversation with why you
33:46
want a quick fix to
33:48
SPEAKER_00: something that is so deep in your body.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: Right.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: Because if you if you're like,
33:54
I want something that's going to make me feel and then I'm
33:57
going to feel this way
33:58
SPEAKER_00: so that I can experience pleasure.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: Are you asking yourself questions of like, why aren't you getting wet?
34:08
SPEAKER_00: Why aren't, do you feel like you can't feel things?
34:13
SPEAKER_00: Right?
34:13
SPEAKER_00: Because that's a deeply scary thing to tell someone.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: I can't feel my body.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: That's what you're telling me essentially.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, how can't you feel?
34:23
SPEAKER_00: What can you feel?
34:25
SPEAKER_00: Have you explored what feels good, what doesn't feel good?
34:29
SPEAKER_00: Like there's just so many deeper.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: And it happens so frequently of the like,
34:34
SPEAKER_00: and also people going,
34:35
SPEAKER_00: I used to be this way,
34:36
SPEAKER_00: my body used to respond this way,
34:38
SPEAKER_00: and now it's not anymore.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: And now it's broken and I just need it to be the way that it was before.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, well, bodies change constantly.
34:48
SPEAKER_00: There's so many factors behind what might be going on with you.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: We're going to have to talk about some of them because,
34:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
34:57
SPEAKER_00: for folks who have vulvas,
34:58
SPEAKER_00: it's a very complex,
35:00
SPEAKER_00: complicated body part to have that Western medicine and science does.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: doesn't put a lot of effort into figuring out for you.
35:13
So we're all on such a long journey of self discovery that also
35:20
maybe if we talked
35:21
SPEAKER_00: with more of our
35:23
female,
35:24
femme,
35:24
women friends,
35:26
maybe we would start to be like,
35:27
oh,
35:28
maybe it's perimenopause.
35:31
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's due to my changing cycle.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's due to the age thing.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's due to my diet.
35:38
Maybe it's also due to the fact that maybe I'm not getting
35:41
touched in a way that
35:43
wakes my body up or there's just a deeper conversation I need
35:47
to have with myself
35:49
SPEAKER_00: in all of these aspects that
35:51
SPEAKER_00: to have like more long-term,
35:54
SPEAKER_00: I was going to say fixes,
35:57
SPEAKER_00: but long-term solutions,
36:00
SPEAKER_00: long-term satisfaction.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: And on the other side of that,
36:05
SPEAKER_00: folks with penises,
36:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:08
SPEAKER_00: by and large coming in and being like...
36:11
SPEAKER_00: I have erectile dysfunction.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: I'm broken.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: I can't get it up.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: I can't make people, my person, my people happy and feel good.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: Give me something that makes me hard.
36:22
And again,
36:23
and it's,
36:24
they go so into the,
36:26
just like a pill,
36:26
a salve,
36:28
a thing.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, OK, well, also, like, why is that?
36:34
SPEAKER_00: Are you on medication?
36:36
Because I don't want to give you something that or recommend
36:38
something because I'm
36:40
not a doctor and I don't know how many times a day I would
36:43
would say this.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: But I'm not a doctor, but I don't want to say, oh, yeah, do this.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: And it's going to affect whatever medication you're taking.
36:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:54
SPEAKER_00: But also a deeper like question behind like,
36:58
SPEAKER_00: OK,
36:58
SPEAKER_00: what is it maybe about performing this role,
37:02
SPEAKER_00: whatever performance that your body just does not want to cooperate with?
37:07
SPEAKER_00: Like,
37:09
what is what are you feeling in your body that it is also
37:12
keeping you from
37:14
SPEAKER_00: experiencing this pleasure?
37:15
SPEAKER_00: Because it's, you know.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: It's a give and take, right?
37:20
SPEAKER_00: It's being able to receive and give.
37:24
And when people's bodies,
37:27
when they're like,
37:28
oh,
37:28
they're not working right.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, okay, well, what about this give and receive dance?
37:34
SPEAKER_00: Are you not on board with?
37:37
And maybe what aren't you being also honest with yourself about
37:41
your sexuality and
37:42
SPEAKER_00: how that's a fluid state and it's constantly changing.
37:46
And maybe however you feel like you're supposed to perform or
37:50
someone is asking you
37:51
SPEAKER_00: to perform that your body is like,
37:54
SPEAKER_00: nope,
37:55
SPEAKER_00: no more.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the body's saying a truth that your mind cannot articulate yet.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: And that is so varied person to person.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: But yes, I think this concept of my body's wrong, my body's broken.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: I need to fix it.
38:13
SPEAKER_00: And it also is tied with, you know, self image.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: And how we're also supposed to perform,
38:22
SPEAKER_00: because gender and sex are so closely interwoven,
38:27
SPEAKER_00: like how we're supposed to perform this dance,
38:31
SPEAKER_00: this act with other people.
38:33
SPEAKER_00: When also we don't,
38:35
SPEAKER_00: if you don't feel good in your body,
38:38
like that's some next level acting to be able to act your way
38:43
through it and in a
38:44
SPEAKER_00: way that's convincing your body it's having a good time when it's not.
38:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
38:50
SPEAKER_01: As you're saying that,
38:51
SPEAKER_01: I was thinking in reading,
38:54
SPEAKER_01: especially the monster romances,
38:57
SPEAKER_01: and I was trying to think about what is gripping here in the imagination?
39:02
A lot of people read these books,
39:05
and it's a guilty pleasure,
39:06
if you will.
39:06
But one thing that stood out to me from those books is how the
39:11
monster is so embodied.
39:13
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
39:15
SPEAKER_01: Whatever the monster is,
39:16
SPEAKER_01: whatever is the anatomy,
39:18
SPEAKER_01: it was interesting to me to see a few things that you mentioned.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: They knew what the body needed.
39:24
They knew what the partner's body needed before the partner
39:28
knew because the mind
39:30
SPEAKER_01: of the character was trying to,
39:32
SPEAKER_01: no,
39:33
SPEAKER_01: no,
39:33
SPEAKER_01: no,
39:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm not aroused by this monster.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: But the monster knows because their senses are so punched up, right?
39:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
39:43
And the other idea I thought was very interesting that it
39:45
showed up in books again
39:46
SPEAKER_01: and again is the idea of how moist everything is.
39:50
SPEAKER_01: Everything is uber lubricated to like, wow.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: And everything, of course, nothing is broken.
39:57
SPEAKER_01: Everything is very much up and running.
40:00
And so I thought it was so interesting how these books are so
40:03
fantastical.
40:05
They live in the fantasy world,
40:07
but it speaks to this uber,
40:09
to me,
40:10
embodiment.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: Right.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: While you are seeing people again and again,
40:14
SPEAKER_01: like you said,
40:15
SPEAKER_01: noticing how disassociated we are from the body.
40:18
And of course,
40:19
this has personal history,
40:21
whatever might have happened to the person.
40:23
But culturally as well,
40:25
we know we are a culture that says to us,
40:28
don't be in your body.
40:29
SPEAKER_01: The body is dangerous.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: And then the body shuts down for whatever reason.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: And we're like, what's going on?
40:37
SPEAKER_01: But I'm thinking to myself, the body is not just a servant.
40:41
SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
40:42
SPEAKER_01: The body will, no, no, I'm your partner here.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: You're not paying attention to me in the ways I need you to.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to show you some things.
40:51
Yeah.
40:53
SPEAKER_00: And to have it,
40:54
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
40:55
SPEAKER_00: in what I've just said,
40:57
we could go so far as to make the connection that the books
41:01
being fantasy are
41:04
helping us enact and visualize and fantasize about these things
41:10
that we're
41:10
SPEAKER_00: struggling with in our life.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: Because if,
41:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:14
SPEAKER_00: one of the most,
41:16
the biggest things that I came up against or discussed with
41:20
people was dryness,
41:24
SPEAKER_00: not feeling aroused,
41:28
SPEAKER_00: not being able to be hard,
41:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
41:30
SPEAKER_00: and the books are the complete opposite.
41:32
SPEAKER_00: The complete opposite.
41:33
SPEAKER_00: There's so much, there's too much wetness.
41:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
41:35
SPEAKER_00: Like...
41:37
maybe we should tone it down like we're flowing everywhere and
41:41
everything's rock
41:42
hard and ready to go at the flip of a switch kind of thing it
41:47
is the fantasy realm
41:49
of what we see in our daily life yeah but you're right it is
41:53
because the you know
41:56
SPEAKER_00: and maybe that is also the role of the monster because of
42:01
SPEAKER_00: what they look like because of what their bodies are.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: They have had to be deeply connected with that part of themselves.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: Um,
42:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
42:12
SPEAKER_00: because I was thinking like what monster,
42:14
SPEAKER_00: if we're thinking like werewolves,
42:17
SPEAKER_00: you know what I mean?
42:17
Like they're so connected to the moon and their emotions and
42:21
their phases.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: Like they are aware they're going to turn.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:24
They know all the intricacies of what it feels like to lose
42:28
control and to get to that point.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't think that there's going to be.
42:34
SPEAKER_00: You know,
42:35
SPEAKER_00: an accountant werewolf that is like,
42:37
SPEAKER_00: oh,
42:37
SPEAKER_00: it's that time of the month I didn't even know.
42:40
SPEAKER_00: And now I'm a wolf.
42:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:42
I was thinking here,
42:43
too,
42:43
that an aspect of the monster is that they're wild.
42:47
SPEAKER_01: You know,
42:47
SPEAKER_01: even if they're a shift or whatever,
42:49
SPEAKER_01: but especially if you brought as you brought the werewolf,
42:52
SPEAKER_01: there's something wild.
42:55
And when I think about the wild and I think about our
42:58
relationship with animals,
43:00
SPEAKER_01: they're very much embodied.
43:02
SPEAKER_01: Right.
43:02
SPEAKER_01: The cats will nap when they're going to nap.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't matter how we change the clocks.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: They're going to get up when they get up, you know, sleep be damned.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: But there's something that they are embodied.
43:14
SPEAKER_01: They're in rhythm with their bodies.
43:17
SPEAKER_01: So I find that interesting that.
43:20
SPEAKER_01: That's why I think the sex shop is such an interesting place.
43:23
It's almost like the cantina in Star Wars,
43:27
you know,
43:28
where you're meeting.
43:30
SPEAKER_01: It's like Luke Skywalker walks in.
43:31
SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, we're in a different territory here.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: This is going to expand your horizon.
43:36
SPEAKER_01: It's going to expand your horizon.
43:37
SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of potentiality here.
43:40
SPEAKER_01: But I see what's interesting,
43:42
SPEAKER_01: too,
43:42
SPEAKER_01: is,
43:42
SPEAKER_01: of course,
43:43
SPEAKER_01: there's medical,
43:44
SPEAKER_01: psychological,
43:46
SPEAKER_01: biological reasons for certain things.
43:49
SPEAKER_01: But just symbology-wise, I'm thinking, you mentioned dryness.
43:56
SPEAKER_01: And then the books talk about wetness.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: And I keep thinking,
44:01
SPEAKER_01: how perhaps dehydrated are we in our imagination,
44:07
SPEAKER_01: in our relationship with our bodies?
44:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:11
SPEAKER_01: Our relationship with each other.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: You need to have this hydration.
44:17
SPEAKER_01: You need the water to help things flow.
44:19
SPEAKER_01: So that things aren't just friction.
44:21
SPEAKER_00: Not just friction.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: Constant friction.
44:23
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:26
And I think there's this interesting aspect of you touching on
44:30
the wildness.
44:32
SPEAKER_00: Because wildness...
44:35
SPEAKER_00: I think for a lot of cultures,
44:37
SPEAKER_00: not all cultures,
44:39
SPEAKER_00: but definitely like the Western culture,
44:42
SPEAKER_00: it is outside of our daily life,
44:45
SPEAKER_00: this wildness.
44:47
Wild doesn't fit into our routines and our clocks and our
44:53
agendas and the people world.
44:57
So these monsters in their wildness live outside of the people
45:01
world and the people
45:03
SPEAKER_00: world is full of friction and is lacking in imagination.
45:10
So these books are an infusion of the wild and the embodiment
45:15
that we lack in our
45:17
SPEAKER_00: daily lives,
45:18
SPEAKER_00: which is definitely why they're so popular.
45:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
45:21
SPEAKER_01: like before we even started recording,
45:23
SPEAKER_01: we touched on the days are darker,
45:26
SPEAKER_01: it's winter,
45:27
SPEAKER_01: right?
45:28
SPEAKER_01: And everybody's like, why am I so tired?
45:30
SPEAKER_01: It's like, it is winter.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: We're supposed to go into the cave.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: The body's like, I need to hunker down, right?
45:38
SPEAKER_01: But our society is like, no, no, get out there.
45:40
SPEAKER_01: There's a clock.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: There's a calendar.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: There's things to do.
45:43
So,
45:44
you know,
45:44
we're constantly being pulled into the very two different
45:47
directions.
45:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:49
SPEAKER_00: And with that, like, why is my body shut down?
45:52
SPEAKER_00: Well, perhaps it's because you're not hydrating it.
45:56
SPEAKER_00: You're not you're not feeding it.
46:01
SPEAKER_00: And you're trying to access things without, you know.
46:06
SPEAKER_00: unlocking the proper doorways first.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: And it also made me think of,
46:13
SPEAKER_00: there's something that Alan Watts said,
46:16
SPEAKER_00: where we think of like,
46:21
SPEAKER_00: there's like different types of love.
46:23
SPEAKER_00: But that love in and itself is like a white light shown through a prism.
46:29
SPEAKER_00: And it's all the different colors.
46:31
SPEAKER_00: And we think of what we're discussing and in the books,
46:35
this like deep carnal wild passion as like the red color in
46:40
that spectrum.
46:41
SPEAKER_00: And then there's like the green and blue, which is like the friendship.
46:47
SPEAKER_00: And you go into like the purple and the indigo and everything.
46:51
SPEAKER_00: And that's the like divine, but it's all the same light.
46:56
SPEAKER_00: It's just shown through it.
46:58
SPEAKER_00: I think so.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: You can see it in a different flavor almost.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: And if you think about our culture again,
47:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
47:07
SPEAKER_00: that very,
47:08
SPEAKER_00: that red light is very demonized,
47:11
SPEAKER_00: right?
47:12
it's very um you know to be kept hidden to not be talked about
47:19
um and we go through
47:22
phases in our you know in our decades of of how open we are and
47:28
how closed but in
47:30
and of itself to think of it as a rainbow and think that like
47:35
all love actually
47:36
SPEAKER_00: contains all those colors and
47:39
SPEAKER_00: But to only want to support them,
47:43
cultivate the certain colors in a certain time when you need
47:48
something rather than
47:50
SPEAKER_00: an always upkeeping or acceptance or viewing them,
47:57
SPEAKER_00: I think is difficult for our bodies too.
47:59
SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh, so we just need to turn on like a switch.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: It's red light time.
48:05
SPEAKER_00: No, like it's business time.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
48:07
Flip back and put your business socks on and let's go like to
48:13
instead accept that.
48:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like it is a flowing to get back to that wetness.
48:18
SPEAKER_00: It is a flowing constant state is what love is.
48:22
SPEAKER_00: which is completely separate from romance.
48:25
SPEAKER_00: Like, love and romance can go together, but they don't need to.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: Like,
48:29
SPEAKER_00: and to accept this,
48:30
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:30
SPEAKER_00: this state,
48:31
SPEAKER_00: and I'm not even getting into,
48:33
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:33
SPEAKER_00: the rainbow and,
48:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
48:34
SPEAKER_00: the LGBTQ plus community,
48:37
SPEAKER_00: but you'll also find that sex shops,
48:41
SPEAKER_00: who most populates that,
48:45
SPEAKER_00: like,
48:46
SPEAKER_00: retail field?
48:48
SPEAKER_00: Like, your coworkers, the people who are working in
48:51
SPEAKER_00: in this field.
48:53
SPEAKER_00: I would be surprised to go into any sex shop and be like,
48:57
SPEAKER_00: oh,
48:57
SPEAKER_00: it's all cishet people working here.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: Inherently,
49:02
SPEAKER_00: I think that concept of acceptance of this broader state is what helps,
49:11
SPEAKER_00: I think,
49:11
the queer community be guides a lot of the time into helping
49:17
other people embody
49:19
SPEAKER_00: Their sexuality,
49:20
SPEAKER_00: their sensuality,
49:21
SPEAKER_00: and accepting that it's not,
49:25
you can't deny a part of yourself the majority of the day and
49:29
then expect you to
49:30
SPEAKER_00: just turn it on.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: Like a switch.
49:33
SPEAKER_00: Like a switch at night.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: Like to deny, to, you know.
49:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
49:38
SPEAKER_00: It's like if someone would lactose intolerant and they're like,
49:41
SPEAKER_00: I can't drink milk this,
49:43
SPEAKER_00: but I'm going to do it right now and it's going to be fine.
49:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:47
SPEAKER_00: Or the other way around.
49:49
SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking when you mentioned, you know...
49:56
SPEAKER_01: The queer community,
49:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
49:58
SPEAKER_01: being in that threshold,
50:00
SPEAKER_01: being the ones who often have to guide others and know,
50:03
because they have had to traverse their journey with their body
50:08
and all that
50:09
SPEAKER_01: experience.
50:10
SPEAKER_01: And now they can help guide others.
50:12
SPEAKER_01: Like the monsters.
50:13
SPEAKER_01: Like the monsters.
50:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
50:15
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I think to the...
50:19
these romance well because would you call them romance novels
50:23
what would you call
50:24
them these erotic novels i mean they fall under the bigger
50:29
umbrella of romance if
50:30
we think of romance as the focus is a relationship and it has a
50:35
happy ending slash
50:37
SPEAKER_01: happy for now
50:38
SPEAKER_01: Now,
50:39
SPEAKER_01: how the subgenres and how they play with the tropes and themes that,
50:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
50:45
SPEAKER_01: it's up for grabs.
50:46
SPEAKER_01: So I would say to me,
50:49
SPEAKER_01: they are romance also in the sense that the word romance is a story,
50:54
SPEAKER_01: you know,
50:55
SPEAKER_01: and and so I think it's focusing on the relationship.
50:59
SPEAKER_01: It's focusing on a wrapping up in a way that feels happy for now.
51:03
SPEAKER_01: There's a sense of conclusion.
51:06
SPEAKER_01: And I think the reason for me that they're powerful,
51:09
SPEAKER_01: even though brushed aside,
51:11
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
51:11
SPEAKER_01: they pretty much hold the publishing industry.
51:16
SPEAKER_01: You know,
51:17
SPEAKER_01: everybody looks at the other books,
51:18
SPEAKER_01: but the real paying customers,
51:21
SPEAKER_01: if you will,
51:22
SPEAKER_01: the good chunk is romance,
51:24
SPEAKER_01: still dismissed,
51:26
SPEAKER_01: getting more respect,
51:27
SPEAKER_01: but still dismissed.
51:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
51:28
SPEAKER_01: It's guilty pleasure.
51:29
SPEAKER_01: People don't want to talk about it.
51:31
SPEAKER_01: Not really.
51:32
SPEAKER_01: It's becoming, it's getting better, but still a journey.
51:35
SPEAKER_01: And I think it has to do with these stories.
51:40
SPEAKER_01: They have a sense of containment.
51:42
SPEAKER_01: So I think the sense that you have a happy ending,
51:45
SPEAKER_01: quote unquote,
51:46
SPEAKER_01: or happy for now,
51:48
SPEAKER_01: allows one to kind of relax,
51:52
SPEAKER_01: perhaps feel a little safe,
51:54
SPEAKER_01: and work through some things that the story may bring up.
51:58
So it could be the mafia,
52:00
it could be dark romance,
52:02
romanticity,
52:02
whatever,
52:04
or the monsters.
52:05
SPEAKER_01: Be the monsters or be the mafioso.
52:07
SPEAKER_01: Those characters, they stand in for the other characters.
52:14
The one that we don't know,
52:15
the one that may teach us something about ourselves.
52:20
SPEAKER_01: Usually that's how these books are often showing up,
52:23
SPEAKER_01: you know,
52:23
SPEAKER_01: the main character,
52:24
SPEAKER_01: the main heroine or hero.
52:27
They are going to learn something about themselves through the
52:30
engagement with the other.
52:32
However,
52:32
that's going to take shape,
52:34
you know,
52:34
then the tropes do their magic.
52:37
SPEAKER_01: So that's when I think about,
52:39
SPEAKER_01: personally,
52:39
SPEAKER_01: I like the monsters because,
52:42
SPEAKER_01: well,
52:42
SPEAKER_01: it's kind of interesting.
52:43
SPEAKER_01: They have different powers.
52:44
SPEAKER_01: They have different anatomies.
52:46
It's kind of sometimes I'm like,
52:47
this is kind of an engineering problem now.
52:49
SPEAKER_01: How is this all going to happen, right?
52:51
But I think what I find more interesting is that the monster
52:55
represents the ultimate other.
52:58
SPEAKER_01: It's very alien.
52:59
SPEAKER_01: It's very foreign, right?
53:01
SPEAKER_01: The mafia also could be the same.
53:02
SPEAKER_01: The, you know, leader of the gang could be the same.
53:06
SPEAKER_01: But I personally like I grew up.
53:08
SPEAKER_01: My favorite fairy tale is Beauty and the Beast.
53:10
SPEAKER_01: So I think it was right there from the beginning for me.
53:13
SPEAKER_01: And I was going to like the beast.
53:15
But so I think when I think too many thinking here in the in
53:21
the current climate that we're in.
53:24
SPEAKER_01: not just in the country,
53:25
SPEAKER_01: but globally,
53:27
SPEAKER_01: at least Western civilization,
53:28
SPEAKER_01: if you will,
53:29
SPEAKER_01: we are struggling to deal with the other yet again,
53:33
SPEAKER_01: right?
53:34
SPEAKER_01: Be it the immigrant,
53:36
SPEAKER_01: be it a certain class of people,
53:38
SPEAKER_01: a certain gender,
53:40
SPEAKER_01: the other is becoming demonized again.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: And I think it has to do with, in the same time, this is all happening.
53:49
SPEAKER_01: It's very interesting.
53:50
SPEAKER_01: There's so many books that,
53:52
SPEAKER_01: are showing up with monsters and romantic fantastical worlds.
53:56
SPEAKER_01: And so there's something that's being worked in the psyche collectively.
54:01
SPEAKER_01: But what's interesting here to me is that the demonization of the other
54:07
SPEAKER_01: Often shows up,
54:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm being simplistic here,
54:11
SPEAKER_01: when we are struggling to deal with something that is actually our own.
54:15
Something within is rising and saying,
54:17
hey,
54:18
we're going to need to talk about this.
54:20
SPEAKER_01: Something's happening.
54:21
SPEAKER_01: But we are pushing it down.
54:23
SPEAKER_01: So I'm going to push it down and project it onto somebody else.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: So I didn't do this problem.
54:29
SPEAKER_01: My husband did the problem.
54:31
SPEAKER_01: My friend did this problem.
54:32
SPEAKER_01: My boss did this problem.
54:33
SPEAKER_01: All that group of people over there did that problem.
54:36
So I often see that before we have the moment of comeuppance
54:44
perhaps of being like,
54:46
SPEAKER_01: oh my God,
54:46
SPEAKER_01: I actually need to deal with this problem.
54:48
SPEAKER_01: Now think of it as individually, but also think of it collectively.
54:52
SPEAKER_01: Then that's when we really get into like,
54:55
SPEAKER_01: it's not me,
54:56
SPEAKER_01: it's them,
54:57
SPEAKER_01: them,
54:58
SPEAKER_01: whoever they are,
54:59
SPEAKER_01: they become the monster.
55:00
SPEAKER_01: And I,
55:01
SPEAKER_01: if you look,
55:02
SPEAKER_01: if you love history and you look at patterns,
55:04
SPEAKER_01: you're like,
55:04
SPEAKER_01: oh,
55:05
SPEAKER_01: we're here again.
55:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:07
SPEAKER_01: Again, could we not all just, if a country could just go to therapy?
55:11
SPEAKER_01: I mean, therapy is not going to solve everything, but it's a beginning.
55:15
SPEAKER_01: So that's usually what I see.
55:17
So I find that interesting that in the moment where they're
55:22
going after women,
55:24
SPEAKER_01: trans,
55:24
SPEAKER_01: everybody,
55:25
SPEAKER_01: immigrants,
55:26
SPEAKER_01: you're seeing all these stories take full front steps.
55:31
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, really claim some space.
55:33
SPEAKER_01: And that's just in the books.
55:34
SPEAKER_01: We're not talking about TV and movies and everything else.
55:37
SPEAKER_01: So I find that interesting that it's usually that moment which tells me,
55:43
SPEAKER_01: oh,
55:44
SPEAKER_01: if we could only pierce that boil.
55:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:46
SPEAKER_01: And get in there, you know.
55:48
SPEAKER_00: And to connect those patterns.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: Right.
55:52
people are coming to these stories in a similar way that
55:55
they're coming to the sex
55:56
SPEAKER_00: shops,
55:56
SPEAKER_00: right?
55:58
SPEAKER_00: If the sex shops are peopled by,
56:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
56:01
SPEAKER_00: these,
56:03
SPEAKER_00: you know,
56:04
SPEAKER_00: these others that are,
56:06
SPEAKER_00: you know,
56:06
SPEAKER_00: outside of the norm of yourself,
56:08
SPEAKER_00: which isn't always true.
56:10
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes people are going there because they feel safe, right?
56:14
in that space of the other the monster right which is very
56:19
similar to why they you
56:20
go to the stories to feel safe too right yeah it's a held space
56:24
for you to to work
56:26
through these inner things with guides that are going to give
56:32
you different
56:32
SPEAKER_00: perspectives or mirror a similar feeling that you have um
56:37
SPEAKER_00: So that you can work through these issues,
56:40
SPEAKER_00: which is why,
56:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
56:42
SPEAKER_00: I think the sex industry is booming.
56:45
SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
56:47
SPEAKER_00: Hand in hand with,
56:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
56:49
SPEAKER_00: the romance novels,
56:50
SPEAKER_00: like carrying the book,
56:53
SPEAKER_00: the literature industry.
56:54
SPEAKER_00: Like it's.
56:56
SPEAKER_00: But we don't want to talk about it because it's guilty pleasures.
56:59
SPEAKER_00: So that's so that's where we're breaking that.
57:02
SPEAKER_00: Right.
57:03
SPEAKER_00: Where you do need to talk about it.
57:05
SPEAKER_00: So we've noticed the patterns.
57:07
SPEAKER_00: of why people are coming to these spaces,
57:10
SPEAKER_00: these books,
57:11
SPEAKER_00: these places,
57:13
SPEAKER_00: because of dealing with these issues.
57:16
Now it's to get people to talk about it,
57:18
to actually go beyond just buying a book,
57:22
a thing.
57:23
SPEAKER_00: You want to have a book club, right?
57:26
SPEAKER_00: I do.
57:30
SPEAKER_00: getting a little vulnerable,
57:32
SPEAKER_00: going a little bit deeper,
57:33
SPEAKER_00: asking the questions rather than just staying on the surface.
57:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:38
SPEAKER_01: That's what I think is the healing power fluff.
57:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:41
SPEAKER_01: That was my thesis.
57:42
SPEAKER_01: That was the title of my thesis, you know, the healing power fluff.
57:45
SPEAKER_01: But back then I was looking at romantic comedies.
57:48
SPEAKER_01: Again, even in movies, romantic comedies are brushed aside.
57:52
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
57:52
SPEAKER_01: We look for the action.
57:54
SPEAKER_01: Romantic comedy is poo-poo, right?
57:57
SPEAKER_01: But I did a whole thesis on it,
58:00
SPEAKER_01: looking at romantic comedies like one would work with the dream,
58:04
SPEAKER_01: giving it,
58:04
SPEAKER_01: you know,
58:05
SPEAKER_01: the space to be sort of unfurled and play with it.
58:09
But we talked about some of the tough parts of this
58:12
relationship with our body.
58:14
SPEAKER_01: But what about the topic of delight and joy?
58:18
You know,
58:19
that's one that I don't think gets a lot of headlines either,
58:25
gets to be kept.
58:27
What did you learn from that aspect of sexuality or
58:32
relationship of with delight
58:34
SPEAKER_01: and joy,
58:36
SPEAKER_01: meeting so many kinds of people?
58:38
SPEAKER_00: I think sadly,
58:39
SPEAKER_00: especially in the retail industry,
58:43
SPEAKER_00: I was always telling folks,
58:46
SPEAKER_00: come back and tell me,
58:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
58:48
SPEAKER_00: especially if it's good.
58:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
58:51
Like you can't come back and tell me if it's bad and we'll have
58:54
another conversation.
58:56
SPEAKER_00: But I very rarely got a lot of follow up.
59:01
Which sometimes I would usually take as a good sign,
59:06
like no news is good news.
59:08
SPEAKER_00: So you must have enjoyed whatever.
59:13
SPEAKER_00: But I think in the few times that I did experience it,
59:19
SPEAKER_00: it was someone who it was either someone who was like,
59:23
SPEAKER_00: I've never had an orgasm before.
59:26
SPEAKER_00: Help.
59:27
SPEAKER_00: And then we would have a conversation.
59:29
SPEAKER_00: We would choose some things they would leave.
59:31
And then maybe I saw them like a year later and they're like,
59:35
oh my gosh,
59:37
it changed my life.
59:39
SPEAKER_00: You know,
59:39
SPEAKER_00: it changed every aspect of these things from people being like,
59:43
SPEAKER_00: oh,
59:44
SPEAKER_00: now I'm broken up with the person I was broken up with.
59:47
SPEAKER_00: Now I'm dating again.
59:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, or it, you know, it deepened our relationship.
59:52
SPEAKER_00: Now it's even better.
59:53
SPEAKER_00: Um,
59:54
SPEAKER_00: To just them being like, OK, I love that I'm back.
59:58
SPEAKER_00: I feel less shy or raw or vulnerable.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_00: I want a new thing now.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm back and it's my birthday and I want you.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_00: You gave me a good recommendation.
1:00:08
I want to try something else to the people who,
1:00:12
you know,
1:00:12
I recommended a lube.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_00: worked really good for them.
1:00:16
And then they just come back every couple months and they're
1:00:18
buying that lube.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_00: And so it's a very,
1:00:21
SPEAKER_00: I don't think I often got to talk about,
1:00:24
SPEAKER_00: except with like friends and people who are closer with me,
1:00:28
SPEAKER_00: those joys.
1:00:29
SPEAKER_00: So I do wish that there was more space for the joy of things.
1:00:34
Because again,
1:00:35
I think in that stripped down space where even orgasms are
1:00:41
talked about as...
1:00:43
like very like commonplace there's a little bit of that that
1:00:49
outside extra
1:00:50
joyfulness that is kind of taken away from them but i think one
1:00:54
of the things that
1:00:56
surprised me the most is talking about different levels of
1:01:00
orgasm with people and
1:01:03
SPEAKER_00: how that also changes over your lifetime and
1:01:06
how you experience pleasure and the varying levels of intensity
1:01:12
and what happens to your body.
1:01:14
So it is almost like a scientific exploration in myself and in
1:01:19
talking with other
1:01:20
SPEAKER_00: people who will talk with me about it.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_00: So it's broadened my...
1:01:25
my realization because to experience we can only experience
1:01:30
orgasm in our own
1:01:31
bodies we are you know trapped within these beautiful meat
1:01:35
suits that we walk
1:01:36
SPEAKER_00: around in
1:01:38
SPEAKER_00: And so it can be really hard for someone to explain what an orgasm,
1:01:44
SPEAKER_00: what joy,
1:01:44
SPEAKER_00: what that feeling of release and pure pleasure is for them.
1:01:49
SPEAKER_00: And then also being able to kind of be like,
1:01:52
SPEAKER_00: and,
1:01:53
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:01:53
SPEAKER_00: there's different kinds and there's different levels of it.
1:01:57
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we've...
1:02:00
I think I can say safely we've all had a lackluster orgasm
1:02:05
before where you were
1:02:06
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:02:07
SPEAKER_00: well,
1:02:07
SPEAKER_00: that was OK,
1:02:08
SPEAKER_00: but it wasn't like that one time.
1:02:11
So how do I like get the get this components right to like
1:02:15
recreate that one time
1:02:17
SPEAKER_00: that like,
1:02:17
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:02:18
SPEAKER_00: it curled my toes and my hair stood on end kind of thing.
1:02:22
SPEAKER_00: So as far as the joy aspects,
1:02:24
I think it was the joy of just people being happy with what
1:02:29
they had bought and
1:02:30
SPEAKER_00: that it was helping them to continue this journey with themselves.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_00: But even deeper than that,
1:02:39
SPEAKER_00: it's also the joy of being able to talk with someone and tell them,
1:02:44
SPEAKER_00: guess what?
1:02:44
SPEAKER_00: You're not broken.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_00: This is such a common,
1:02:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:02:49
SPEAKER_00: because especially folks with vulvas,
1:02:53
SPEAKER_00: a lot of folks going through perimenopause,
1:02:56
SPEAKER_00: a lot of folks,
1:02:58
SPEAKER_00: and there's great books out there on the subject.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_00: And there's one that is called What Fresh Hell Is This?,
1:03:05
SPEAKER_00: That always make people laugh.
1:03:08
And that laughter,
1:03:09
that joy really allows them to be like,
1:03:12
oh,
1:03:12
hey,
1:03:13
guess what?
1:03:13
This is just something that we don't talk about in our culture
1:03:16
that we're not
1:03:17
SPEAKER_00: prepared for,
1:03:17
SPEAKER_00: that everyone is undergoing.
1:03:21
And so there's such there's such as deep shame around folks
1:03:26
with vulvas with
1:03:28
SPEAKER_00: penetration and wetness and pain and
1:03:33
and not being in the mood or being too in the mood all the time
1:03:37
to just be able to
1:03:38
SPEAKER_00: tell someone,
1:03:39
SPEAKER_00: hey,
1:03:39
SPEAKER_00: guess what?
1:03:40
This is a really common thing I hear multiple times a day from
1:03:43
a stranger who I'm
1:03:46
not trying to coerce you or there'd be no reason for me to tell
1:03:51
you other than it's
1:03:53
SPEAKER_00: the truth.
1:03:55
SPEAKER_00: You're not broken.
1:03:57
SPEAKER_00: Your body is undergoing change.
1:03:59
SPEAKER_00: But we can have a conversation, you know.
1:04:01
SPEAKER_00: And then you have those conversations.
1:04:02
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, they come back in to get lube again.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_00: Or the rare time that they would come back in and be like,
1:04:08
SPEAKER_00: thank you for recommending this product.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_00: Or thank you for having this conversation with me.
1:04:12
Or the rare instance where someone does a Yelp review and you
1:04:16
get to read about it.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, they helped me so much.
1:04:21
I think those are the joyful aspects about it that maybe I
1:04:26
wasn't expecting to share.
1:04:29
SPEAKER_00: To get so much joy out of just being able,
1:04:32
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:04:33
SPEAKER_00: for someone to just be like,
1:04:34
SPEAKER_00: oh,
1:04:35
SPEAKER_00: I like just no penetration feels good.
1:04:39
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, yep, that's very common.
1:04:41
And their eyes just like lighting up and this realization that
1:04:46
like they're not as
1:04:48
SPEAKER_00: fucked up as they originally walked in and thought that they were.
1:04:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:04:53
And then having a conversation and being like,
1:04:55
there are things that,
1:04:56
you know,
1:04:56
can help.
1:04:57
SPEAKER_00: And then just realizing, like, it's going to be an ongoing thing.
1:05:02
SPEAKER_00: Because also, perimenopause lasts forever.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_00: And it's just a never-ending array of new things.
1:05:12
SPEAKER_00: But that,
1:05:12
SPEAKER_00: thankfully,
1:05:13
SPEAKER_00: sometimes a lot of what you're going through,
1:05:15
SPEAKER_00: someone else has gone through.
1:05:17
SPEAKER_00: And just having that conversation.
1:05:18
SPEAKER_00: Reading in a book, having a conversation and being like, oh, you too?
1:05:22
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I feel a little bit better now.
1:05:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:05:25
SPEAKER_01: A few things I'm thinking here.
1:05:27
SPEAKER_01: One, I do feel...
1:05:29
In books,
1:05:29
in romance novels,
1:05:30
we need to have more,
1:05:32
they call them mature female characters.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_01: But I'm like, we need over 40, you know, or 50, even over 60.
1:05:41
SPEAKER_01: Go at it.
1:05:42
SPEAKER_01: Why does it have to be reduced to the 18-year-olds?
1:05:45
SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
1:05:46
SPEAKER_00: If we had an over 60, like, if there is... Or further.
1:05:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm not even stopping at 60, but...
1:05:54
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:05:54
this is another taboo subject where when people retire and then
1:05:59
they go into
1:06:00
SPEAKER_00: retirement homes,
1:06:01
SPEAKER_00: like STIs and STDs are rampant.
1:06:06
SPEAKER_00: Because you don't have to worry about pregnancy and people be fucking.
1:06:12
SPEAKER_00: But they don't have the tools because they didn't maybe experience this.
1:06:17
SPEAKER_00: They're in this little, you know...
1:06:20
captive community where yeah you got a lot of free time on your
1:06:24
hands and guess
1:06:25
what the body still feels pleasure you don't there's this myth
1:06:29
turn 40 especially
1:06:31
for women and your body nope no longer um people are no longer
1:06:36
interested in it it
1:06:38
SPEAKER_00: can't feel pleasure and you're done you you're done um
1:06:41
that's not true the body like you know orgasms the pleasure of
1:06:45
orgasms don't go
1:06:46
away with an age they go away with you know how you feel about
1:06:52
yourself um how your
1:06:55
sexual central journey is unfolding for you but for a lot of
1:07:00
folks it's the
1:07:00
SPEAKER_00: opposite you know like you turn 40 and you're like now i know what i want
1:07:06
SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to get it.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:07:07
SPEAKER_01: And also, there's also a reduction of what pleasure is.
1:07:11
SPEAKER_01: You know,
1:07:12
SPEAKER_01: I think there's a wide umbrella of what pleasure can be,
1:07:16
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:07:16
SPEAKER_01: much like the rainbow.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_01: Different kinds of pleasures.
1:07:19
SPEAKER_01: The other part I'm thinking here is...
1:07:24
It's kind of sad that people don't tend to come and speak of
1:07:28
the joy of how that.
1:07:30
And it's reminding me a little bit of what we were talking
1:07:33
about at the cafe
1:07:35
SPEAKER_01: earlier of generosity.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_01: You know,
1:07:38
SPEAKER_01: I think in any relationship,
1:07:40
SPEAKER_01: not just with humans,
1:07:41
SPEAKER_01: any relationship,
1:07:42
SPEAKER_01: there's an element of generosity of the giving.
1:07:45
SPEAKER_01: There's a sense of the giving.
1:07:47
SPEAKER_01: And we tend to think of generosity as the giving part.
1:07:51
SPEAKER_01: But it's also how do we receive it?
1:07:54
You know,
1:07:55
and myself as one of my language of languages of love is gift
1:07:59
giving.
1:08:00
SPEAKER_01: I like to see how people react.
1:08:03
SPEAKER_01: I want to see it.
1:08:04
SPEAKER_01: You know, hopefully they like it, but sometimes they don't.
1:08:06
SPEAKER_01: And then I'll know.
1:08:07
SPEAKER_01: Then I know, OK, I didn't hit the spot.
1:08:10
SPEAKER_01: Let's, you know, do it again next time.
1:08:12
So I think we need to cultivate a culture where we share more
1:08:17
of the joys,
1:08:17
SPEAKER_01: how things work,
1:08:18
SPEAKER_01: because we live in a culture that everything is awful.
1:08:22
Yeah.
1:08:23
We're very quick to go to the Yelp or whatever it is and type
1:08:27
up,
1:08:27
this was wrong.
1:08:29
SPEAKER_01: We're not very quick to go and say, this was a pleasure.
1:08:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, and we need to balance that out a little bit.
1:08:36
SPEAKER_01: I feel we need to be able to do that more.
1:08:39
SPEAKER_01: It's not good just for the other who's receiving.
1:08:42
SPEAKER_01: It's good for us.
1:08:44
SPEAKER_01: Because when I'm able to go back and say to somebody,
1:08:47
SPEAKER_01: this was a pleasure,
1:08:48
SPEAKER_01: this gift you gave me or whatever it is,
1:08:50
SPEAKER_01: this recommendation was awesome.
1:08:52
SPEAKER_01: It hit the spot.
1:08:53
SPEAKER_01: Good for me.
1:08:55
good for the one receiving double the generosity right great
1:08:59
and i think that's
1:09:01
also missing we tend to go for this is what's wrong but what is
1:09:07
working you know
1:09:09
SPEAKER_01: and my my we nourish that area that's what sometimes i think about that
1:09:15
SPEAKER_01: Well, this was very insightful.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_01: Well,
1:09:18
SPEAKER_01: here's a question for you,
1:09:19
because you also help people in facilitating going individually
1:09:25
and having these
1:09:25
SPEAKER_01: deeper conversations,
1:09:27
SPEAKER_01: not just on the retail side.
1:09:29
SPEAKER_01: What...
1:09:31
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:09:31
SPEAKER_01: in all this experience you've had personally,
1:09:34
SPEAKER_01: professionally,
1:09:36
SPEAKER_01: what would you like to,
1:09:37
SPEAKER_01: I guess,
1:09:38
SPEAKER_01: bring to this topic,
1:09:41
SPEAKER_01: this bigger conversation that you want to be able to do more of,
1:09:45
SPEAKER_01: perhaps?
1:09:46
SPEAKER_00: I think we're doing it right now.
1:09:50
I always want to expand people's horizons past what they think
1:09:57
that they know.
1:09:59
SPEAKER_00: Because that's what I'm also constantly trying to do for myself, too.
1:10:04
SPEAKER_00: Like, we never stop learning.
1:10:05
SPEAKER_00: I...
1:10:07
SPEAKER_00: If you if you're like,
1:10:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm an expert,
1:10:09
SPEAKER_00: I know I'm like,
1:10:10
SPEAKER_00: well,
1:10:10
then I don't want to talk to you because like you can be an
1:10:13
expert on something.
1:10:14
But if you don't have the the addendum of but there's
1:10:19
constantly more to know and
1:10:21
SPEAKER_00: there's more to explore and you're never done,
1:10:24
SPEAKER_00: no matter if you are an expert swordsman,
1:10:27
SPEAKER_00: like there's always something that's going to come up that's going to be.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_00: And that's, that's where the magic lies.
1:10:36
SPEAKER_00: But I think I would like to,
1:10:39
I've been really interested in working with people around the
1:10:44
concept of ownership
1:10:48
SPEAKER_00: and love and ownership and romance.
1:10:52
SPEAKER_00: Cause there's an aspect of romance to me that feels like a trying to win.
1:10:59
SPEAKER_00: You're trying to win something in this romance.
1:11:02
SPEAKER_00: You're trying to get an outcome, something to happen.
1:11:07
And I think for a lot of people's relationships is we do get
1:11:14
caught up in that game
1:11:17
SPEAKER_00: of winning something.
1:11:19
SPEAKER_00: And then once we win it, quote unquote, once we own it,
1:11:25
SPEAKER_00: then it loses this shininess.
1:11:29
SPEAKER_00: It loses its allure.
1:11:32
And a thing that people come to me about a lot once they find
1:11:39
out is that I'm polyamorous.
1:11:43
SPEAKER_00: I do believe in the ability of multiple loves.
1:11:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that I think it is a good thing.
1:11:51
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:11:53
that I would like to challenge people around that concept
1:11:59
because I think it would
1:12:01
SPEAKER_00: help people be more satisfied in their relationships in general.
1:12:07
SPEAKER_00: And also their, their like sensual sexual lives too.
1:12:11
SPEAKER_00: If sex is also,
1:12:14
if you if you need to be romanced and get in the mood so then
1:12:18
you're winning
1:12:18
something and sex is an act and you're enacting it and you need
1:12:24
that like novelty
1:12:25
or you need that like that that end goal of of yeah all i can
1:12:31
really think of the
1:12:32
SPEAKER_00: end goal of like winning owning and having that power right you've you've
1:12:38
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:12:38
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:12:52
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying that you can't have,
1:12:55
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:12:55
I think that's also why the kink and BDSM community is just
1:13:00
bursting at the seams,
1:13:01
SPEAKER_00: it feels like right now.
1:13:03
That we do have so many people that are going through these
1:13:09
stages of finding
1:13:10
SPEAKER_00: themselves and then finding themselves in...
1:13:14
a kink or finding themselves in into BDSM because it is
1:13:20
allowing you to experience
1:13:23
SPEAKER_00: sex and experience
1:13:26
SPEAKER_00: love,
1:13:26
SPEAKER_00: affection,
1:13:27
intimacy in these boundaries that allow you to work through
1:13:34
this concept that we
1:13:36
SPEAKER_00: have so prevalent in our society of what ownership is,
1:13:40
SPEAKER_00: what love is,
1:13:42
SPEAKER_00: what romance is,
1:13:46
SPEAKER_00: And also so that you,
1:13:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:13:49
SPEAKER_00: what's the biggest thing that tears people apart besides,
1:13:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:13:55
SPEAKER_00: lackluster sex lives?
1:13:56
SPEAKER_00: It's cheating.
1:13:58
I think that is why there's such a movement into polyamory and
1:14:03
BDSM because it's
1:14:06
SPEAKER_00: widening your horizons so that you can change.
1:14:11
SPEAKER_00: explore these stories.
1:14:13
You can explore these experiences without having it be so black
1:14:19
and white and
1:14:20
SPEAKER_00: without having it be about someone winning,
1:14:23
SPEAKER_00: someone losing or,
1:14:25
SPEAKER_00: or,
1:14:25
SPEAKER_00: or how we win or how we take ownership of this relationship.
1:14:30
And it becomes like we've been talking about more fluid so that
1:14:34
people can experience things.
1:14:36
SPEAKER_00: I think it's just, I want to widen people's horizons in general and
1:14:41
SPEAKER_00: because I'm a problem solver.
1:14:43
SPEAKER_00: At my core, I wanna be the diplomat, you know, help people out.
1:14:49
SPEAKER_00: And so if people are coming with these problems or these issues,
1:14:53
And they're like,
1:14:54
well,
1:14:54
this is just how it is because this is how it's got to be.
1:14:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, no.
1:15:00
SPEAKER_00: Let's question the limit.
1:15:01
SPEAKER_00: You know, let's question.
1:15:03
SPEAKER_00: So let's question the threshold that you're standing at, your issue.
1:15:07
SPEAKER_00: Let's question how far you can see ahead and where you want to go.
1:15:13
SPEAKER_00: And also have people inherently question what?
1:15:18
SPEAKER_00: why they love, why they want love, why they, what romance is to them.
1:15:24
SPEAKER_00: The question of us sitting right here together.
1:15:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:15:28
I just want people to question why they do what they do so that
1:15:33
they can be acting together.
1:15:35
SPEAKER_00: out of their more authentic self and out of their truth.
1:15:40
Because I think if more people are acting out of their
1:15:44
authentic self and truth,
1:15:45
SPEAKER_00: we would also have less of a problem with the other.
1:15:49
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:15:50
SPEAKER_00: Because you'd be focusing,
1:15:51
I guess I want to focus people inward more rather than outward
1:15:55
at others being the
1:15:56
SPEAKER_00: problem and flip that around as a mirror and be like,
1:16:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, why?
1:16:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:16:04
SPEAKER_01: And I would have a better relationship with the other within.
1:16:07
SPEAKER_02: You know?
1:16:08
And when you're...
1:16:09
I mean,
1:16:10
there's a lot of good meat right here in everything you said.
1:16:13
SPEAKER_01: But two things that stand out to me.
1:16:15
SPEAKER_01: One, I do agree with this idea.
1:16:18
SPEAKER_01: Let's ask better questions.
1:16:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:16:20
SPEAKER_01: Because I think a lot of the problems we have,
1:16:22
SPEAKER_01: and I felt this a lot working as a coach,
1:16:27
SPEAKER_01: as an astrologer,
1:16:27
SPEAKER_01: people come in.
1:16:28
SPEAKER_01: The question is poor.
1:16:30
SPEAKER_01: The question...
1:16:32
SPEAKER_01: is a diagnosis.
1:16:34
SPEAKER_01: And that's just the beginning.
1:16:36
SPEAKER_01: That's good.
1:16:37
SPEAKER_01: That question got you here.
1:16:39
SPEAKER_01: Let's ask better questions.
1:16:40
SPEAKER_01: What are the better questions?
1:16:42
SPEAKER_01: Questions that expand rather than tighten.
1:16:45
SPEAKER_01: And it's a process.
1:16:46
SPEAKER_01: It's not a quick fix.
1:16:48
SPEAKER_01: And I'm still working with that myself.
1:16:50
So even as I read these books,
1:16:52
I'm asking myself,
1:16:53
why am I reading these books?
1:16:54
SPEAKER_01: What gives me pleasure in these books?
1:16:57
SPEAKER_01: What doesn't give me pleasure?
1:16:59
SPEAKER_01: Where's my resistance?
1:17:00
SPEAKER_01: Why do I have a resistance to that?
1:17:03
SPEAKER_01: So I'm reading in different levels, right?
1:17:06
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:17:07
SPEAKER_01: The other part that you touched on,
1:17:08
SPEAKER_01: I think it's really interesting,
1:17:11
is that our whole language around romance and love is almost
1:17:15
like a competition.
1:17:17
SPEAKER_01: We want to score.
1:17:18
SPEAKER_01: We want to get to the top.
1:17:21
SPEAKER_01: I want to conquer.
1:17:22
SPEAKER_01: Everything is very dominant.
1:17:24
SPEAKER_01: And almost like I climbed up the Everest.
1:17:27
SPEAKER_01: I got there, got my flag.
1:17:29
SPEAKER_01: Yay.
1:17:29
SPEAKER_01: Yay.
1:17:30
SPEAKER_01: But I think it's about romancing.
1:17:34
SPEAKER_01: It's a continuous unfolding.
1:17:38
And that's why it's interesting and somewhat perhaps
1:17:41
problematic that in a lot of
1:17:43
SPEAKER_01: these books in romance,
1:17:45
SPEAKER_01: you end with a happy ending.
1:17:46
SPEAKER_01: They get married.
1:17:47
SPEAKER_01: You don't see the continuation.
1:17:50
SPEAKER_01: You end with a marriage.
1:17:51
SPEAKER_01: And so, yes, you've got to wrap up the story someplace.
1:17:54
SPEAKER_01: That's fair.
1:17:56
SPEAKER_01: But the real, the deeper story happens, I would say, perhaps after.
1:18:02
SPEAKER_01: We don't know.
1:18:03
SPEAKER_01: How are you going to engage with this now?
1:18:06
SPEAKER_01: And how is it going to unfurl?
1:18:08
How are you going to unfurl with being in relationship with
1:18:10
this other individual
1:18:12
SPEAKER_01: for a longer period,
1:18:13
SPEAKER_01: however that is?
1:18:14
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that...
1:18:16
When I think about romancing,
1:18:18
I think it's a continuous way of approaching life.
1:18:22
SPEAKER_01: So more and more,
1:18:23
I've been thinking that this idea of romancing the threshold
1:18:26
for me came to be as
1:18:27
SPEAKER_01: like,
1:18:28
how do we engage with change in a way that isn't like I'm just
1:18:32
bracing for impact,
1:18:34
SPEAKER_01: but I am showing up with the curiosity of a lover.
1:18:37
You know,
1:18:37
when you first fall in love,
1:18:39
you want to know everything about that person,
1:18:41
right?
1:18:42
SPEAKER_01: But perhaps what if we did that with our lives,
1:18:46
SPEAKER_01: with the changes,
1:18:47
SPEAKER_01: with the things that are happening?
1:18:48
SPEAKER_01: Just be curious.
1:18:50
SPEAKER_01: Like you were saying earlier about yourself.
1:18:52
SPEAKER_01: You were just curious.
1:18:53
SPEAKER_01: You wanted to know.
1:18:54
SPEAKER_01: So I think what is lacking in our world is a space for curiosity.
1:18:59
We're quickly too pushed into,
1:19:01
are you on this camp or are you on that camp?
1:19:04
SPEAKER_01: And why is there only two camps to begin with?
1:19:08
SPEAKER_01: But do I have to pick a camp?
1:19:11
SPEAKER_01: You know,
1:19:11
SPEAKER_01: maybe at some points you have to stand in a certain position,
1:19:15
SPEAKER_01: but I don't have to hold it like so adamantly.
1:19:18
SPEAKER_01: I can be at least curious.
1:19:21
SPEAKER_01: What is this about?
1:19:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:19:22
well and the the truth is that romance is also fluid because it
1:19:27
looks different to
1:19:28
different people different people are going to have different
1:19:31
there is you know the
1:19:32
the definition of it but people are going to have different
1:19:35
definitions because
1:19:36
they have different ways of expressing love and care and
1:19:39
affection yeah so if
1:19:41
SPEAKER_00: someone's romantic in the traditional sense as in
1:19:44
SPEAKER_00: They buy you flowers and chocolates and take you out on dates.
1:19:48
SPEAKER_00: But if that doesn't feel good to you,
1:19:51
would you call that romance or would you call that something
1:19:55
that's stressful?
1:19:57
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:19:57
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:19:59
SPEAKER_01: I feel like it's a rich topic.
1:20:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:20:03
SPEAKER_01: Not just for relationships in general between people and humans,
1:20:08
SPEAKER_01: but I think with what the world is going through.
1:20:11
SPEAKER_01: And I think about the Venus power of relating, you know.
1:20:18
SPEAKER_01: And that's why it's thinking about your work in the retail side.
1:20:24
SPEAKER_01: Venus is a goddess of the liminal.
1:20:28
SPEAKER_01: That's why she's dangerous.
1:20:31
SPEAKER_01: She's dangerous because love,
1:20:33
SPEAKER_01: attraction,
1:20:34
SPEAKER_01: desire could steer you away from the goal you're going at.
1:20:39
SPEAKER_01: It can catch your eye and off you go in a different direction.
1:20:43
SPEAKER_01: Danger.
1:20:44
SPEAKER_01: That's why we say curiosity killed a cat.
1:20:47
SPEAKER_01: Danger.
1:20:48
SPEAKER_01: But in the stories,
1:20:49
SPEAKER_01: in the fairy tales,
1:20:50
SPEAKER_01: in the romance,
1:20:51
SPEAKER_01: it is exactly that that attracts you into the story,
1:20:56
SPEAKER_01: what attracts the main characters.
1:20:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:20:58
SPEAKER_00: If the character wasn't curious, you'd have no story.
1:21:02
SPEAKER_00: You have no story.
1:21:03
SPEAKER_01: All right.
1:21:05
SPEAKER_01: So as we're wrapping up towards the end,
1:21:08
SPEAKER_01: before we get into our little rapid fire questions,
1:21:12
SPEAKER_01: which answer from your gut,
1:21:15
SPEAKER_01: check in with your body,
1:21:16
SPEAKER_01: right?
1:21:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:21:18
Is there one last thing you hope that people would walk away
1:21:21
with from our conversation?
1:21:23
SPEAKER_01: Deeper curiosity about themselves.
1:21:25
But curiosity about themselves that then they can follow and
1:21:30
being curious about others,
1:21:32
too.
1:21:33
SPEAKER_00: I think if people listen to this and someone was like...
1:21:38
SPEAKER_00: Well, why do I think that romance is this?
1:21:41
SPEAKER_00: Or why do I find this sexy?
1:21:44
SPEAKER_00: Or why do I hold this belief about myself?
1:21:48
SPEAKER_00: To just follow those threads.
1:21:51
SPEAKER_00: To be more open, less closed off.
1:21:56
SPEAKER_00: And to, yeah, to read a sexy book.
1:21:59
Yeah.
1:22:00
there are plenty read a book in general read go read a book but
1:22:04
like if it's a sexy
1:22:05
book and it awakens something that you didn't know is in you be
1:22:09
curious about that
1:22:10
that's that's the juiciness right there that's what i would
1:22:13
like ah that's great
1:22:16
SPEAKER_01: okay so rapid fire okay if pleasure had a color what would it be
1:22:23
SPEAKER_00: I know you said shoot from the hip,
1:22:25
SPEAKER_00: but this is a thing where pleasure exists differently in everyone's body.
1:22:31
SPEAKER_00: So for you, what would it be for me?
1:22:35
SPEAKER_00: For me personally, I think pleasure would be pink.
1:22:39
SPEAKER_00: I think we we also associate Venus pinks, pinks, soft pinks, rose petals.
1:22:47
SPEAKER_00: There's something about pink that I think is also truly deeply demonized.
1:22:53
SPEAKER_00: Very much.
1:22:53
SPEAKER_00: I think when I was when I was younger, like in my teens, I hated pink.
1:22:59
SPEAKER_00: I hated all pinks.
1:23:00
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's because I was rejecting my own sexuality.
1:23:04
SPEAKER_00: I was rejecting this part of myself that I thought was shameful.
1:23:09
SPEAKER_00: That I thought people were going to judge me for.
1:23:12
SPEAKER_00: And that's why I hated pink.
1:23:14
SPEAKER_00: And now pink is one of my most favorite colors.
1:23:16
SPEAKER_00: My favorite color right now is like a coral pink.
1:23:20
SPEAKER_00: Like a deep ocean.
1:23:21
SPEAKER_00: Very Venusian.
1:23:22
SPEAKER_00: Very Venusian, yeah.
1:23:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think people who embrace pink...
1:23:27
And wear it proudly also are the ones that challenge others the
1:23:32
most too.
1:23:33
SPEAKER_00: That are challenging this concept of pink being weak and baby, right?
1:23:41
SPEAKER_00: And very inherently feminine.
1:23:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:23:44
Yeah.
1:23:45
SPEAKER_00: But which is also very subjective because,
1:23:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:23:49
SPEAKER_00: back in the day,
1:23:51
SPEAKER_00: boys used to wear pink and girls would wear blue.
1:23:53
SPEAKER_00: And now it's flip-flopped.
1:23:54
SPEAKER_00: So, again, it's very subjective.
1:23:57
SPEAKER_00: But I think for me, it's pink.
1:24:00
SPEAKER_00: Pink.
1:24:02
SPEAKER_01: One thing everyone should learn, unlearn, unlearn about desire.
1:24:08
SPEAKER_00: Everyone should unlearn that desire is not an act for someone else.
1:24:15
SPEAKER_00: Desire is not a show or a play to do or give to someone else.
1:24:26
SPEAKER_00: I think that we think of desire as how someone is being affected by me.
1:24:35
SPEAKER_00: And I would hope that we would
1:24:38
dig a little deeper and think of desire as truly a fire within
1:24:43
us and how we are
1:24:46
SPEAKER_00: going to stoke that fire,
1:24:47
SPEAKER_00: but how we are going to teach others to stoke it too.
1:24:51
I think of desire as like a candle flame that can either be
1:24:56
snuffed out really
1:24:57
SPEAKER_00: easily or turned into a Molotov cocktail,
1:25:01
SPEAKER_00: but you need the right circumstances and you need to know yourself and
1:25:06
SPEAKER_00: So that it can be an experience.
1:25:09
I think desire is an experience and desire is something that
1:25:13
you is not just,
1:25:16
SPEAKER_00: again,
1:25:16
SPEAKER_00: a one time thing that like someone desires you.
1:25:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it is like we're talking about goddesses.
1:25:25
I think desire is a very heshcha,
1:25:29
like come to the hearth of yourself,
1:25:31
feeding yourself.
1:25:34
Because if you're starving,
1:25:35
you can't really get in contact with that deeper desire.
1:25:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no.
1:25:42
SPEAKER_01: There's no logs.
1:25:43
Yeah.
1:25:46
SPEAKER_01: Best way to build intimacy with your clothes on?
1:25:52
SPEAKER_00: Deep conversations.
1:25:54
There's so many card games and games out there that start that
1:26:01
way is deep conversations.
1:26:03
And you were just talking about like when you first are falling
1:26:06
in love with someone.
1:26:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:26:08
SPEAKER_00: If you're going out on a date,
1:26:09
SPEAKER_00: you're sitting across a dinner table with someone,
1:26:13
SPEAKER_00: you can feel that desire,
1:26:15
SPEAKER_00: that passion.
1:26:16
SPEAKER_00: And what are you doing?
1:26:17
SPEAKER_00: You're just talking to them.
1:26:19
SPEAKER_00: But you have that hunger,
1:26:22
SPEAKER_00: that veracity to know the other,
1:26:25
to know this person that has inherently sparked maybe a desire
1:26:31
or sparked something
1:26:32
SPEAKER_00: in you that you're interested in.
1:26:36
SPEAKER_00: Whether that be how they look,
1:26:38
SPEAKER_00: the sound of their voice,
1:26:40
SPEAKER_00: all these other attributes,
1:26:41
SPEAKER_00: even their bank account,
1:26:43
SPEAKER_00: like all these other things that have sparked your interest in them.
1:26:46
SPEAKER_00: That's just the beginning, just to get you crossing that threshold.
1:26:49
SPEAKER_00: So I also believe that if you, if people are...
1:26:54
what word did you use passion desire intimacy intimacy so for
1:27:02
folks that are that
1:27:03
are lacking in intimacy that are having a hard time connecting
1:27:07
that are having a
1:27:08
SPEAKER_00: hard time with their sex lives what what are you not
1:27:14
SPEAKER_00: What deep conversations are you not having that you're hiding from?
1:27:18
SPEAKER_00: Because,
1:27:18
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:27:19
SPEAKER_00: you can't have intimacy if you're not truthful,
1:27:22
SPEAKER_00: if you're not honest and you're hiding things.
1:27:24
SPEAKER_00: You just can't.
1:27:26
SPEAKER_00: So having the, like, deep conversations on all subjects.
1:27:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:27:33
SPEAKER_01: Not even just about the sexuality of the relationship.
1:27:35
SPEAKER_01: It could be anything.
1:27:36
Because if you get someone talking deeply about something
1:27:39
they're passionate about,
1:27:40
that's sexy.
1:27:42
SPEAKER_00: Truly, if someone is so passionate about... It could be anything.
1:27:46
SPEAKER_00: They could be like, I love mushrooms.
1:27:48
SPEAKER_00: Let me tell you everything I know about mushrooms.
1:27:51
SPEAKER_00: And this and this.
1:27:53
SPEAKER_00: If you have that little kindling of interest in this person,
1:27:57
SPEAKER_00: seeing them animated and excited and passionate should build...
1:28:02
SPEAKER_00: That excitement in yourself, too.
1:28:05
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so conversations, but also we're getting back.
1:28:09
SPEAKER_00: We're sounding like a squeaky wheel a little bit.
1:28:11
SPEAKER_00: Curiosity.
1:28:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:28:13
SPEAKER_01: Back to curiosity.
1:28:14
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:28:14
SPEAKER_01: so in a way,
1:28:15
SPEAKER_01: I keep thinking Venus and Hermes and Mercury,
1:28:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:28:20
SPEAKER_01: Aphrodite and Hermes.
1:28:22
SPEAKER_01: They bonded.
1:28:23
SPEAKER_01: They had a child.
1:28:24
SPEAKER_01: But when I think about desire,
1:28:27
SPEAKER_01: if I give desire to Venus,
1:28:30
SPEAKER_01: Venus's rulership,
1:28:32
SPEAKER_01: I give curiosity to Mercury.
1:28:34
SPEAKER_01: And they go together.
1:28:36
SPEAKER_01: They're both liminal archetypes.
1:28:39
SPEAKER_01: They're both dangerous.
1:28:40
SPEAKER_01: Start asking questions.
1:28:42
SPEAKER_01: It can be dangerous.
1:28:43
SPEAKER_01: But it can be eye-opening.
1:28:45
SPEAKER_01: It can open up the floodgates for something much deeper.
1:28:48
SPEAKER_01: So I always think about those two of them working together.
1:28:52
SPEAKER_01: What scares people more, asking for what they want or receiving it?
1:29:02
SPEAKER_00: I think it's receiving it.
1:29:05
SPEAKER_00: I think receiving is very difficult for people.
1:29:12
SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of us do a kind of passive receiving.
1:29:16
SPEAKER_00: It's the equivalent of the side hug.
1:29:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:29:20
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:29:23
SPEAKER_00: Because it is a vulnerable place to ask what you want.
1:29:26
SPEAKER_00: But I think a lot and maybe I'm just speaking from myself,
1:29:29
SPEAKER_00: but I think a lot of us,
1:29:31
we ask what we want with the thought that it's probably not
1:29:35
going to happen.
1:29:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:29:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:29:36
SPEAKER_00: We ask what we want.
1:29:38
SPEAKER_00: And deep down, we think they're going to fail.
1:29:40
SPEAKER_00: They're not going to give me what I am asking for.
1:29:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:29:46
Because it is much more rare to ask what you want and then
1:29:51
receive that in return.
1:29:54
SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes when you receive it,
1:29:56
SPEAKER_00: you have the realization,
1:29:58
SPEAKER_00: oh,
1:30:00
SPEAKER_00: this isn't what I actually want.
1:30:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm asking the wrong thing.
1:30:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm asking for the wrong thing.
1:30:08
SPEAKER_00: But if you ask for it and then you don't get it,
1:30:11
SPEAKER_00: you don't get to have that epiphany moment of,
1:30:14
SPEAKER_00: oh,
1:30:15
SPEAKER_00: this is either this is what it feels like to receive what I've asked for,
1:30:18
SPEAKER_00: or this is what it feels like.
1:30:20
SPEAKER_00: And I actually don't want this.
1:30:23
SPEAKER_00: And I have to revise my ask because it is it is a cyclical thing.
1:30:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's very interesting.
1:30:30
SPEAKER_01: I also would say receiving it.
1:30:32
And I didn't think about that possibility that you could be
1:30:35
receiving and then
1:30:36
SPEAKER_01: realizing,
1:30:36
SPEAKER_01: oh,
1:30:37
SPEAKER_01: it's not really what I wanted.
1:30:39
And then that could lead to other explorations or feeling like
1:30:43
you're back to square one.
1:30:44
SPEAKER_01: I didn't think about that possibility.
1:30:47
I thought about receiving being hard because you have to
1:30:50
surrender to the receiving
1:30:52
SPEAKER_01: if it comes or the disappointment of it not coming.
1:30:57
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
1:30:58
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I didn't think about that possibility.
1:31:00
SPEAKER_01: What if you do get it and then it's not what you wanted?
1:31:03
SPEAKER_01: Okay, last one.
1:31:05
SPEAKER_01: So the name of the podcast is Romancing the Threshold.
1:31:08
SPEAKER_01: So when you hear Romancing the Threshold, what comes to mind?
1:31:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, this one, I actually got a sneak peek of this question.
1:31:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you did.
1:31:17
SPEAKER_00: So I've been actually thinking about this a lot for like the past week.
1:31:22
SPEAKER_00: And I first came up with...
1:31:25
That romancing the threshold means an idealization of beginning
1:31:30
something.
1:31:32
SPEAKER_00: And then I was like, okay, well, what does that really mean?
1:31:35
SPEAKER_00: Because they're all just words describing other words.
1:31:39
SPEAKER_00: So you're trying to win the affection of a limitation, it feels like.
1:31:47
SPEAKER_00: You're wooing a doorway.
1:31:50
SPEAKER_00: There is a romance about that.
1:31:53
SPEAKER_00: But you can also be, it almost is like, it's like a pause.
1:31:57
SPEAKER_00: It's like a breath.
1:31:58
SPEAKER_00: It's a pause.
1:32:00
SPEAKER_00: It's a,
1:32:01
SPEAKER_00: whether it be an exhalation or an inhalation,
1:32:04
SPEAKER_00: you can almost get stuck in a false pretense of between states.
1:32:09
So I think it does come down to what you mean,
1:32:13
what romance means for each person.
1:32:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:32:17
SPEAKER_00: So you're either, you're,
1:32:21
You're idolizing the starting of something or you're just
1:32:26
you're staying in that
1:32:28
SPEAKER_00: state of possibility.
1:32:30
SPEAKER_00: You're in a constant wooing of possibility.
1:32:34
SPEAKER_01: OK, I like that.
1:32:37
SPEAKER_01: What for yourself, your relationship with romancing?
1:32:41
SPEAKER_01: In connection to thresholds.
1:32:45
SPEAKER_00: I think it is that.
1:32:48
It is that staying curious and honoring that curiosity that
1:32:54
continues me opening doors.
1:32:57
SPEAKER_00: It continues me having those conversations.
1:33:01
It continues me standing at the precipice of something and
1:33:06
looking at it with...
1:33:08
You know,
1:33:08
rose colored glasses so that I can keep continuing the work and
1:33:14
the journey.
1:33:16
SPEAKER_00: It's not it's the opposite of getting jaded.
1:33:18
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that.
1:33:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm going to use that.
1:33:23
SPEAKER_01: In my copy.
1:33:24
SPEAKER_01: This is the opposite of getting jaded.
1:33:27
SPEAKER_00: You can have it.
1:33:27
SPEAKER_00: You're welcome to it.
1:33:28
SPEAKER_01: Because we live in a culture that has made jadedness,
1:33:34
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:33:34
SPEAKER_01: it's trying to make jadedness sexy.
1:33:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:33:36
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sorry, it's just not sexy.
1:33:38
SPEAKER_01: No.
1:33:38
SPEAKER_01: No.
1:33:39
SPEAKER_01: Not in my book.
1:33:41
SPEAKER_00: Apathy is not sexy.
1:33:43
SPEAKER_00: No.
1:33:44
That's why I say with like the conversations and the deep
1:33:49
curiosity is people
1:33:51
SPEAKER_00: caring should be sexy.
1:33:54
SPEAKER_00: Caring about you.
1:33:56
SPEAKER_00: And,
1:33:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:33:57
SPEAKER_00: sometimes we do idolize and romance,
1:34:01
SPEAKER_00: like,
1:34:02
SPEAKER_00: some very harmful situations to ourselves.
1:34:05
And in stories,
1:34:08
in literature,
1:34:09
and again,
1:34:10
in kink and BDSM,
1:34:11
we can explore that safely.
1:34:14
But this concept of,
1:34:17
like,
1:34:17
it's cool to not care,
1:34:19
it's cool,
1:34:20
like,
1:34:21
it's not really true.
1:34:22
SPEAKER_00: What's really punk rock is to love...
1:34:26
so deeply and openly that you're overflowing with passion about
1:34:33
it and to be able
1:34:34
SPEAKER_00: to talk about it.
1:34:35
SPEAKER_00: Because, like, if you think about...
1:34:37
hearing hearing friends talk about their lovers do you want to
1:34:42
hear about a friend
1:34:43
being like oh yeah like they're fine i think they're fine and
1:34:47
it's whatever or do
1:34:48
you want to hear them be like this person is this and i love
1:34:53
this about them and i
1:34:55
SPEAKER_00: could hear them talk all day long and uh
1:34:59
You know,
1:34:59
like that's what you hope for your closest,
1:35:02
your closest companions.
1:35:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:35:05
Is that sort of overflowing with seeing this person and loving
1:35:10
all this juicy
1:35:12
SPEAKER_00: aspects of them rather than this like.
1:35:16
SPEAKER_00: But it's true that in our culture,
1:35:17
SPEAKER_00: too,
1:35:18
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:35:18
SPEAKER_00: there is a...
1:35:20
SPEAKER_00: For some reason,
1:35:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to use the term fuckboys,
1:35:23
SPEAKER_00: are put on this pedestal.
1:35:25
These,
1:35:25
like,
1:35:25
especially men who are apathetic,
1:35:28
don't care,
1:35:30
ghost you,
1:35:32
like,
1:35:32
ignore you.
1:35:33
SPEAKER_00: Like, they're...
1:35:35
SPEAKER_00: And it is perpetuated and it has been for a long time that like,
1:35:40
SPEAKER_00: oh,
1:35:40
SPEAKER_00: you want to like get with someone?
1:35:43
SPEAKER_00: Don't give them the time of day.
1:35:44
SPEAKER_00: Ignore them.
1:35:45
SPEAKER_00: Don't care about them.
1:35:46
SPEAKER_00: Play these mind games with them.
1:35:47
And it's so detrimental to true intimacy,
1:35:51
to true romance and to true love.
1:35:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:35:54
that i i want a gomez morticia relationship i want to like
1:36:01
there's so much more i
1:36:02
would get watch a whole movie if anyone's listening like i
1:36:06
would help write it like
1:36:07
a whole like a whole gomez morticia backstory of them falling
1:36:11
in love and just
1:36:13
SPEAKER_00: being completely obsessed and
1:36:15
SPEAKER_00: And not to the it's not detrimental to them.
1:36:18
SPEAKER_00: They have a whole family.
1:36:20
They support their family,
1:36:21
you know,
1:36:22
but they are unabashedly obsessed with each other.
1:36:25
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's way sexier and will should always be.
1:36:31
SPEAKER_01: And with that, anybody listening, stories, fan fiction, go at it.
1:36:37
SPEAKER_01: So, Jess and Marie, so thank you.
1:36:39
SPEAKER_01: I hope that people get as much juiciness of our conversation as we did.
1:36:45
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:36:46
And if they're listening and they're going to do a drinking
1:36:48
game for every time
1:36:50
SPEAKER_00: that we say juicy.
1:36:51
SPEAKER_00: It's a good idea.
1:36:52
SPEAKER_00: And curious.
1:36:53
SPEAKER_01: Go at it.
1:36:54
SPEAKER_01: You know, pick your poison.
1:36:57
SPEAKER_01: Pick your poison.
1:37:00
SPEAKER_01: As we close today's conversation,
1:37:02
I'm struck by how Jessie Marie shows us that the most profound
1:37:06
threshold work often
1:37:07
SPEAKER_01: happens in the most ordinary places.
1:37:11
Not in sacred circles,
1:37:13
but under fluorescent lights between shelves of silicone and
1:37:17
lube.
1:37:19
SPEAKER_01: Her experience in adult retail revealed a universal truth.
1:37:23
SPEAKER_01: We often arrive at every threshold convinced we need fixing,
1:37:27
SPEAKER_01: clutching at our credit cards like talismans,
1:37:31
SPEAKER_01: hoping to bypass the work that the transformation requires.
1:37:36
But what if the real medicine is in being brave enough to ask
1:37:40
the questions that need asking?
1:37:43
SPEAKER_01: What if transformation begins not with the perfect product,
1:37:47
SPEAKER_01: but with admitting to a kind stranger what we've never voiced aloud?
1:37:53
SPEAKER_01: Whether you're navigating changes in desire,
1:37:56
SPEAKER_01: in your body,
1:37:57
SPEAKER_01: or in how you meet the world,
1:37:59
SPEAKER_01: remember,
1:38:00
SPEAKER_01: you're not broken.
1:38:02
SPEAKER_01: You're just changing.
1:38:04
SPEAKER_01: And change,
1:38:05
SPEAKER_01: as any good threshold guide will tell you,
1:38:07
SPEAKER_01: requires patience,
1:38:09
SPEAKER_01: curiosity,
1:38:10
SPEAKER_01: and yes,
1:38:12
SPEAKER_01: proper foreplay.
1:38:14
SPEAKER_01: So thank you for romancing this edge with us today.
1:38:17
You can continue the conversation on my Instagram at
1:38:20
vanessacuto.stories or at my
1:38:23
SPEAKER_01: website vanessacuto.com.
1:38:25
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:38:26
SPEAKER_01: And if you're ready to explore your own thresholds with support,
1:38:30
I offer one-on-one threshold guidance that weaves together
1:38:34
astrology and coaching.
1:38:37
Because sometimes we need a companion who can both read the
1:38:40
stars and the soul.
1:38:42
SPEAKER_01: Until next time, may your questions be as brave as your crossings.