Latest / The Bob Lefsetz Podcast / Richard Thompson

Transcript

Richard Thompson · The Bob Lefsetz Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: My guest today is the one and only Richard Thompson. Richard,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: you have a new album shipped to short Why that title?
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Well, it seemed appropriate at the time. Let me think, Well,
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: I think in a sense, we're all a bit out
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: to see you know, you know, like musicians, songwriters and
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: and uh, we're kind of sending messages to land, like
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: a song as it is a kind of a little
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: a little message from far far out at sea. Uh.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: I think as an artist, I think you always feel
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: like like you're on the edge of society. You you're not,
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: you're not kind of part of it, you're not in it.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: So I suppose that's what that really means to me. Anyway, Well,
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: well tell me about feeling like you're on the edge
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: of society about it. I think if you're slightly removed,
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: if you're one of those people, you know, you go
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: to a party and and you spend more time watching
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: everybody else that than actually engaging that, then I think
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: you're kind of on the edge. But when you're on
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: the edge, you get the best of you, You get
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: a clearer view of everything. Just being that little bit.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Okay, So let's say I call you up and I say, Richard,
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: I'm going to a party. Are you going to say, okay,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: pick me up. Are you going to say not interested?
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: I used to go to parties to pick up girls
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: and get drunk. Now I'm happily married and I don't drink.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Parties become more, you know, like dinner parties. I think
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: I love parties where you go and you sit around
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: and you have some dinner or something, and you have
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: really good intellectual conversations. I love intellectual conversation. That's my
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: favorite thing.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Well, let me just say that I invited you to
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: a dinner party and you don't know anybody. Is that
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: exciting or depressing?
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: It depends who it is, depends who's sitting at the table.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: I mean, I've done that many times, and sometimes you
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: make friends for life, and sometimes you meet really interesting people. Yeah,
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: if it's a table containing you know, uh, you know
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: William Blake and Stevie Smith and Dmitriy Shostakovich and you know,
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: Michael Angelo, then I think that that could be an
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: interesting party, you know. And I wouldn't mind if I
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: didn't know anybody beforehand. I could find lots to talk about.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't think we're going to be going to
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: that dinner party soon, but.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: Perhaps in heaven, you know. See.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: So just to be clear, you feel like you're on
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: the outside, but you don't have any social anxiety.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Social anxiety and not really No, I used to, but
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: I think I think I think I'm over it now. Actually, yeah, yeah,
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: I think I'm fine.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Did you always feel like an outsider your whole life?
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Most of my life? Yeah, an outside yeah, in some ways,
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: a bit of a stranger in some ways. You know,
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: I was a bit of a solitary kid, I suppose,
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: and I still enjoy my own company. I need some
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: alone time generally speaking. So yeah, I mean I think
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: I engage were well with people when I engage. But
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: there is always that the artist thing where you're always
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: thinking in terms of reflecting, in terms of reflecting reality,
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: reflecting society, and I think to do that you just
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: have to be that that little one degree removed, just
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: to give yourself some perspective.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: So you need your alone time. What do you do
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: in your alone time?
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: What do I do?
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Well?
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: I get creative whatever that means, you know, you know,
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: I play music. I think about music. I compose music,
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: I compose lyrics and I watched the football.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Well, is your alone time because you want to create
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: or you're sick of hanging with people?
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: No, I'm not sick of hanging with people. It just
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: feels like a need. If it's not daily, then it's
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: certainly weekly that I just have to get away and
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: create something. And that's an old human it's not a
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: human traits. Isn't it like a creativity? I think we
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: love to create something where we look for inspiration, you know,
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: So I'm just looking for inspiration, Okay.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: I find my best inspiration comes when I'm not looking
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: for it, primarily in the shower. Is there a moment
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: or a place where you find that you tend to
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: get the best ideas well?
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: The shower is very good, so is the bath, you know,
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: the Turkish bath very good. That work for Rumy gelidin Rumy.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: But as Picasso said, you know, the music will find you,
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: but but it wants to find you working. And I
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: think sometimes you kind of have to meet creativity halfway.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: You can't just kind of let it come, or you
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: can wait for a long time and get very frustrated.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: So I tend to kind of, you know, noodle at projects,
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: and then I find and at some point I get
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: in the right mental state to allow creativity in.
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: Okay, So this last album came, you know, essentially half
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: a decade after the previous album. You talked about working
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: to let the inspiration in. Was it that you decided
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: you were going to make another record or what is
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: that interim about.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: I think the album process, unless you've got a deadline
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: that you have to, you know, grab, I think things
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: just accumulate. I think you accumulate enough material, and you think, well,
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: I've got I've got sixteen songs here. Surely out of
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: those sixteen, i've got twelve twelve good ones I can
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: put on a record, So let's book some studio time,
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: you know. I think it works like that. Really, COVID
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: gave me a lot more time to write, but obviously
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: I couldn't tour, So that was two and a half
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: years of not touring. But you know, I wrote a
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: couple of EPs. I wrote this album, I wrote the
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: next album. I wrote a musical play, I'm one way ahead,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: I'm so far ahead, I can't believe it.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: Okay. The last song on the album talks about needing
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: to go on the road to make the money to
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: make that whole work. So it didn't work for a
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: couple of years with COVID. Was that tough financially, Yeah,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: really tough. You think, like a lot of musicians. I
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: had to had to dig into my pension. So many
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: people I knew did the same thing.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: It was. It was tough, you know, on top of
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: an expensive divorce. But that was really tough. And I'm
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: still catching.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Up, okay. You know, you talk about an expensive divorce.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: You get into the lyrics on this record and it
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: seems to be a divorce record, and then finding love
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: and it seems that, you know, you talk a lot.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: The best song on me I'm for Me is trust,
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: and you talk about trust. How much is this reflective
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: of the relationship you were with and then you got divorced?
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: Probably nothing to do with that, really. I wrote the
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: song really about my wife, who's an adoptee, and adoptees
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: sometimes have a hard time trusting anybody, so so I
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: really write write it for her. I'm putting words in
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: her mouth. Frankly, It's an old trick, but I'll resort
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: to it if I have to and you know, she
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: has a hard time trusting people. She kind of trusts
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: me now after seven years fifty so that's an achievement.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: So how'd you meet her?
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: I mean it backstage, classic friend of a friend, and
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: we're both from North London, both come from the same town,
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: you know, both come from the same background, share similar values,
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: and you know, just someone I have my I think
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: she's a wonderful person and she does do a lot
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: of work in the adopted your world, does a lot
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: of important work in that world, and I'm filled with admiration.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Did the new relationship have anything to do with the divorce?
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: You could say that I suppose. I think, you know,
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: I was married to my previous wife for you know,
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: thirty plus years, and I think at some point you
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: realize that that there's there's no life there. It's it's
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: a kind of a lifeless relationship and you're kind of
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: going through the motions. So yeah, well, without being too
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: specific about it, I should say that's true.
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: And your present wife has children. Are they still in
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: the home or are they outside the home?
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Her children are now just about left that they were
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: in their twenties, so they're now independent. Yeah, my kids
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: are much older. I got five kids. My youngest is thirty,
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: so my oldest is fifty something, so might have long
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: flown the coop.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: When you got involved with your present wife, you were
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: living with her. Were the kids still in the.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Home, Yeah, some so, some were somewhat.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: So what was it like starting all over with the
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: kids in your home? I mean that must have been
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: you know, some people say they don't want to do
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: that anymore. Been there done that?
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm I think it was unfortunate that the
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: wee all got on very well. I mean I really
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: like us that Zarah's kids, so that they're great kids.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: And you know, it wasn't like we were there all
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: the time. You know, sometimes I'm working. I was in
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: England some some of the time. She was in the States.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: The kids went off to college at some point, so
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: it wasn't like we were, you know, under each other's
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: feet or anything. So just a nice relationships all round.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: So you have five kids, A couple of them are
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: well known from your first wife. What are the other
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: three kids up do?
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Let's see what my daughter came He is a musician,
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: My son Teddy's a musician, my son Jack's a musician
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: slash interior designer. My daughter Moona's basically a mother, she's
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: got five kids, and my son Jesse's kind of does
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: it stuff that I don't understand.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: And are they all off the payroll?
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Pretty much? Yeah, thank thank God that they'll start
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: paying me at some point. I don't perhaps they'll support
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: me in the assisted living home.
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: And how much contact do you have with them?
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: My kids? Yeah, I'm pretty good, fairy frequent. I probably
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: see Teddy the most because when I'm in New Jersey,
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: he's in New York, so we're fairly close together. My
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: mother kids are all kind of around, you know, Southeast England,
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: so I'll see them all in the next couple of
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: weeks probably.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: So how most of the time you're in New Jersey now.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: It's about fifty to fifty I should say, yeah, between
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: London and New Jersey.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: And with your previous wife, where were the locations.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: Between London and Los Angeles?
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: And was it still fifty to fifty?
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: I say pretty much?
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So you have a place in London.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: I have a place in London from which I'm speaking
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: to you right now.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: And how long have you had that place?
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: Oh golly, at least thirty years, probably thirty five years.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: And when you're not there, is there somebody stays for you?
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Well, where we have people look after it.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So what's the difference to you living in
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Los Angeles is supposed to living in New Jersey.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: I love Los Angeles. I love California as a state.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: It's a beautiful state and it's full of variety, and
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: in many ways it's easy living. I mean it's expensive living,
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: but it's kind of easy in so many ways. Compared
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: to Britain anyway, New Jersey for me is a lot
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: more convenient. I'm much closer for doing you know, Atlantic
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: backwards and forwards stuff. I'm twenty minutes from the airport
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: and yeah, it's it's a handy place to be. I know,
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: just in New Jersey. I just live it. Live at
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: a condo and I've got a studio in the basement
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: which is great, and some good friends and that's all
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: I need.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: And what's the difference between living in the US and
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: living in the UK? I think.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: What's the truth that I think? You know, Europe's older,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: that's the main thing. The The socialist historian Eric Hobsbaum
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: said late in life he said that the best place
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: is to live a constitutional monarchies because they give you
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: the greatest chance of freedom. And I feel that really
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: about Britain's a kind of stability to bring and you know,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: there's a security so that people there's a lot of
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: things people don't worry about. That the kind of accept
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: a certain continuum that Britain's been around for a couple
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: of thousand years and it will continue to be around
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: in the future. Well, with America, it feels much more unstable,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: and it feels like so much more like it like
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: a new country and has all the insecurities of a
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: new country. And you know, right now politically America is
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: very divided. Although politics in Britain is pretty bad, it's
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: never at that level. So I'm concerned about about America,
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: about how divisive it's become, and it seems to be
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: really tearing itself apart, and perhaps it'll end up as
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: being a bit more fragmented than it is now.
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: When you say there's more freedom in a constitutional monarchy,
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: can you amplify that?
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you think of the British royal family and you think,
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: you know that these are over privileged people. You know
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: that I mean, my god, you know what, we pay
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: them all this money and they dressed up in these
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: uniforms and they do these ceremonies, and is it all
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: really necessary? You know? I think, particularly if you're an American,
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: you could look at that and think it's ridiculous. But
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: I think in Britain, you think, you know, the Queen,
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: the King, you know, it is a kind of kind
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: of a continuity, and politicians come and go, and their
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: egos come and go, and their incompetence comes and goes.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: But there's a kind of stability about the fact that
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: the Queen was there for like seventy years and you know,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: went through god knows how many prime ministers. You know,
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: you have a fair price. The first prime Minister is
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: Winston Churchill. So you know, there's there's this very very accomplished,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: very knowledgeable figurehead in the Queen for seventy years, and Charles,
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: I think also fills the same role. It's just a
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: sense of inheritance and continuity, and it means that there's
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: less emphasis on the politicians. I think in America sometimes
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: the politicians get treated almost like royalty. But you know,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: mister President's you know, people kind of genuflector a bit
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: to just the office of president.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, wait a second, we're in the US, so we're
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: one step removed. And we read about modern European history
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: when the kings and queens had all this power. But
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: to us the queen feels like a figurehead with no
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: political power. How do the people in the UK view
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: her or here now it's a king.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, the view is a good idea. The
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: kings and queens of Britain I have have not had
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: constitutional power for a long time, so that they've always
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: been figureheads. As I said, they say the Queen reigne,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: she does not rule, but I should say now the
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: king reigns, he does not rule. So it's it's a
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: symbolic can continue them if you like, in theory that
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: the king can can dissolve parliament. He can say that's it,
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: you know, you're out, but he'll never do it. Like
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: a lot of things about British politics, a lot isn't
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: written down. It's just kind of tradition and and you
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: know a previous experience really so yeah, it's it's a
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: totally symbolic continuity. But but but it does take the
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: emphasis away from the politicians as themselves. And what about Brexit?
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: What about Brexit? Absolute mess, absolute mess. I'm a stupidity incompetence.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: If you were going to leave the European Union, at
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: least have a plan, at least look at it thoroughly
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: and figure out what you're actually going to do. This was,
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: you know, the Conservative Party of Britain basically in fighting
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: and mister Cameron thinking well that the way I'll unite
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: the party is to have a referendum over Europe, which
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: is absolutely stupid. No one expected people to vote for
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: outs anyway, but they did. I had to. I had
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: to hold to that and it's a disaster. There's a
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: movement to rejoin the EU and I might be a
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: fan of that actually.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: And we hear, you know, labor just got in. But
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: we hear that the NHS is underfunded. We hear that
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: immigration did not decrease, which was one of the big
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: points of Brexit. What's the status of the country today.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: I think you just hit hit upon the two big
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: issues right now, which is immigration. But Britain does not
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: have a successful immigration policy and that they're gonna have
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: to deal with that. It's serious stuff. And the NHS
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: has been underfunded for years and years and years. The
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: problem is the medicine keyps becoming more and more expensive.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: You know, to treat certain patients you need big expensive machines.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: It costs a fortune and the NHS has not been
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: able to keep up. It's a brilliant idea, but it
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: just needs more funding.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: And if you become ill, do you go to a
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: private doctor or the NHS?
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: What if I can afford, I'll go you a private doctor, okay,
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: or I'll get ill in America? Where where where I'm
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: on medicare?
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: So you grew up in notting Hill.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: Briefly. Yeah, when we were five we moved to Highgate.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: And for those of us you know geography challenge, where
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: is there?
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Well, notting Hill is a few miles west of central London.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: Highgate is about five miles north of central London and
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: it's kind of a leafy suburb or on the edge
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: of a leafy suburb. There's a big park called Hampster's Heath,
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: which is yeah, you can't build on it. It's like
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: too sandy to build on. So it survived in close
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: proximities London. And that's where I live now in London.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: And what do your parents do for a living.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: My mum was a housewife, my dad was a policeman.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: So when marijuana and other things became a big deal,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: and your father was a policeman, how did you square that?
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Well, he said, probably in the seventies, you know, he
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: said to me. Oh yeah, people talking about marijuana all
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: the time. He said, Well, we used to call it
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: Indian hemp back in the day, and it's pretty talking
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: about the nineteen sixties or even the fifties, he said, yeah,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: you know, well we used to confiscate some sometimes from
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: the West Indian immigrants, you know, and we'd have a
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: little smoke at the police station. And he said, it
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: didn't do much for me, he said.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: And so how many kids in the family.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: In Oh, my siblings just a sister. I have an
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: older sister.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: And okay, you were born in forty nine. Did you
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: still feel the after effects of the war.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, London was pretty bombed, you know, during the war.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: So as kids were we play on these bomb sites.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's really dangerous and our parents didn't know
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: necessarily what we were doing, but you know, we play
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: in the broken glass and you know, thank thank god,
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: we never encountered an unexploded bomber or an incendiary or anything.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: But you know what, we just you know what, it's
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: your childhood. You've got nothing else to compare it to.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: So it just seemed fine, you know. And the street
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: we lived on was like all shrad or damage on
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: the buildings, and at the end of the street was
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: actually a bomb site. But that was just our child well,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: we just had fun. We enjoyed it.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: And when did the fog live? When did it go
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: from black and white to color? I think.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: It probably took till sixty seven. I'm thinking, you know,
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: sixty three when the Beatles, Mary Korn's, you know, the
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: whole fashion and music thing. London became the center of
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: that whole world. I think it was still black and
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: white then, and I think sixty seven with sort of
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: psychedelia flower power, I think then suddenly it turned it
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: turned to color far as I remember, and you know,
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: the fifties was very gray as far as I remember
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: as a kid, that just seemed like the weather was great.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: It's just seemed like the people's energy was kind of down.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: But as kids were we just enjoyed it anyway. But
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: looking back, it did seem basically kind of post war
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: you know, poversy really And what was it like when
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: the Beatles hit exciting? Exciting? I think, well, you know,
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: even when I was I was like thirteen, fourteen years old,
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: it was very easy to get caught up in pop
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: culture because you had the radio, you had music on
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: the radio, you had some very good TV shows for teenagers.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: And by the time I was fifteen, I was going
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: out to hear bands, going out to clubs, folk clubs,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: rock clubs. I knew you had a lot of choice
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: in London. You had a huge variety of things that
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: you could go and see, so you kind of felt
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: you were at the epicenter really.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: So from your house you could get the tube or
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: how would you actually get to these clubs? And how
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: long would it take?
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you could take the tube or the bus. The
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: tube is very quick. I mean from my from our
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: house at that point, we could you could be in
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: town in like fifteen minutes, twenty minutes from the kind
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: of inner suburbs. Well, when my parents moved us to
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: the outer suburbs, it took it took about you know,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: half an hour thirty five minutes.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: So did your parents ever care that you went alone,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: or they say, hey, go be your own person. I'd
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: always I'd always.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: Deceived my parents really about what I was doing and
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: where I was going. So sometimes I missed the last
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: train home, so I'd have to walk home, which made
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: I'll be getting in at like one o'clock two in
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: the morning, and thank god, my parents were heavy sleepers,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: and I kind of sneak in and they say, what
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: time did you get in last night? I said, oh,
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: you know, eleven, eleven thirty. I said, oh, okay, so
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: I did that for years. Okay, how good a.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: Student were you?
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Not very good?
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: And was there always music in the house?
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, my parents were musical, you know, they weren't professional,
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: but my mom was a good singer and my father
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: was an amateur guitar player. So we have Let's Pool records,
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Jago Reinhart records, lot Lonnie Johnson records from my father's
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: collection and from my sister's collection, who was five years
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: older than me. We had all the good rock and roll.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: But so we had Buddy Holly, Elvis, Jean Vincent, Jerry Lee,
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: all the good rock and roll as well. So always
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: music in the house.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: And when did you start to play an instrument.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: My father brought home a guitar that was damaged when
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: I was ten, and he kind of glued it back
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: together again, and then I just picked it up and
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: started playing because it was something I wanted to do
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: for a long time. I've been asking my parents for
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: a guitar since I was five, So at ten, I
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: finally got one.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: Why were you asking them at age five?
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Rock and roll? You know? You know Elvis had a guitar,
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: but Buddy Holly had a guitar, and so, you know,
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: posing with a tennis racket in the in front of
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: the mirror. I had to suffice for a while, but
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: then I was very glad to get my hands on
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: a real one.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: So your father glued the guitar back together. Did you
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: ever take lessons? I did?
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I took classical lessons for a couple of years,
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: which was great. That really got my fingers working properly.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: I'm very glad to this day, I'm very glad that
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: I did that.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: And can you read music to this day?
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: I can't. I can, Yeah, I'm not particularly good read.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: I can write it fast than I can read it.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, So if you're making a record, you ever write
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: down charts.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Not usually, I mean sometimes we write you know, like
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: like you know, a Nashville style chart, you know where
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: you just you know, you have the bars and you
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: have the you know the one called the four called
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: the five chord get kind of shorthand charts. Really, if
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: I'm bringing musicians in like a string quartel or something
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: there that then I'll notate that properly.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, So you're playing in the guitar, At what point
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: do you start playing with other people?
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Pretty quickly, as soon as I started, my friend who
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: live around the corner started as well, so we took
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: lessons together and I was like a week ahead of him,
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: so I got to play lead and he played rhythm.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: And when did you start forming a band or start
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: playing out?
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, well, I think when I was twelve.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: I think I was in a band, like an instrumental band.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: And I think when I was thirteen or we did
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: our first show and that was also our last show
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: because it was it was so bad experience traumatic that
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: we basically broke up at that point. And then I
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: played with other kids at my school. I was in
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: a band with Hugh Cornwell, who was in the Stranglers
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: that lasted a couple of years, and then I met
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: the Fairport guys, probably when I was sixteen, started playing
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: with them.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: At what point in this story do you say this
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: is going to be what I do for a living.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Almost at no point, really, you know, it wasn't a
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: career choice. If you see interviews with the Beatles in
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: ninely sixty four sixty five that they say, well, we'll
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: do this another couple of years and then we'll move over.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: We'll just write for other people, you know, it wasn't
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: a career choice. That there was no sense of longevity
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: being in popular music. So I think we thought we'd
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: do it for a couple of years. Really, I'm eighteen,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: nineteen twenty. At some point, I'm like twenty two, and
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: I'm still going. Twenty five, I'm still going, but I'm
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: still looking over my shoulder, and I'm still thinking that,
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: you know, this cannot last. And I'm thirty thirty five,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: you know, but I think I was forty when my
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: mother said, no, when are you going to get When
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: are you going to get a real job? You haven't really,
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: you know, what are you going to settle down and
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: stop this music nonsense? You know, this is this is
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: when she came to see me at the Royal Festival
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Hall in London. So so I think in my nightmare,
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: so I'm still kind of looking over my shoulder thinking
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: that this isn't a real job. What am I doing?
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: At some point I've got to go back to university
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: or something, you know, and do more study. I don't know.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Did things ever get tough in you how to get
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: a day job?
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Not quite? Somehow I always managed to survive when I
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: left school. I was a stained glass stained glass artist
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: for a year. What we did graphic design and stained glass,
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: and I worked at the Zoo for a while. But mostly,
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: you know, I survived on music, and when I wasn't
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: in a band, I could survive on playing sessions, studio sessions.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, So, for lack of a better term, Fairport and
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: those other racks were folk oriented. When you started in bands,
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: were you playing that music or were you playing more
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: rock and roll type stuff. I think.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Growing up in London listening to a wide range of
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: music meant that I could play a wide range of music.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: I could play folk music, I could play rock and roll,
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: I could play a bit of jazz, I could play classical,
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: so I was kind of ready for anything, really, and
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: when Fairport started, we really were a folk rock band
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: and I was happy to play that. That seemed to
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: me a great choice of music. And we love lyrics.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: We were a real lyric band, so we would be
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: covering you know, Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan, Jonny Mitchell.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: We'd be covering songs by the great singer songwriters.
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, something that always fascinated me. We had a big
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: folk movement late fifties early sixties in US, completely wiped
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: off the map by the Beatles, and then in the
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: late sixties there was the folk era from England, Fairport Convention, Steele, iye,
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: span all these other acts. What caused that.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: Becaused it? I think, well, you know, since the grammar phone,
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: or maybe since like Stephen Foster, you know, a lot
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: of UK music has been imported, and you know, songs
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: like you know, Carolina Moon Keeps Shining that that you
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: know that these songs were kind of romantic and almost
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: mythological to the Brits. It was like somewhere somewhere else
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: you could go that in your mind at least, that
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: was a better place somehow, and you know, all through
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: the jazz era, the swing era, music was more popular
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: from the other side of the Atlantic, and I think
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: when you have rock and roll that the same thing happened.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: And I think even the British folk revival of the
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: fifties was sparked by people like Pete Seeger and the Weavers,
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: and it took till the fifties for people like you
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: and mccol and A. L. Lloyd to say, okay, well
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: we're gonna start out of folk club and you have
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: to sing songs from where you come from. You've got
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: to sing British songs. If you're Scottish, you've got to
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: sing Scottish songs. If you're English, English songs. And that
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: was a big change, you know, And for Fairport it
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: seemed to us a logical thing to do in the
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: sixties was to contemporize folk music, was to bring it
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: into the twentieth century by playing it on amplified instruments
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: and drums. So really that was that that revival which
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: started sort of sixty eight sixty nine fair Butt start
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: started playing traditional music as a rock band and still
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: I spam followed, other bands followed, but it took us
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: that long, I think to really shake off the American
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: shackles in some ways.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: Well there's also Britange and Pentangle. To what degree were
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: you out in the forest alone or were there other
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: English bands pushing you forward and leading the way in
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: this type of music?
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: Not really, no, I mean I think we thought Pentangle
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: were more of a kind of folk slash jazz fusion band,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: if you like that, And we thought they were a
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: bit wimpy, you know that they didn't play particularly loud,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: so we weren't influenced by by them. I mean, I
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: love but yanch as a player, and I've seen him
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: for years in folk clubs, and I love Danny Thompson,
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: but we didn't really pay much attention to Pentangle. You know,
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: all those guitar players David Graham, John Rambourn, Bert Yan
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: Martin Carthy. I saw a lot of in folk clubs
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: when I was a teenager, so I was strongly influenced
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: by them at the time. And it was part of
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: that mix, that that London mix of you know, being
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: able to hear all these different different things. You know,
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: they went in there with the Who and the Yardbirds
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: and anything else you could see in London at the time,
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: you know, so it was really fair boss idea. It's
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: idea to amplify and play traditional ballads.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. You're going to clubs. What acts
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: did you see rock clubs?
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: There was a great club called the Marquee Club, of course,
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: in Soho, which started out as a jazz club, started
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: by a guy called Chris Barber, and by about nineteen
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: sixty five you had The Who playing there as in
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: a residency, a little club like three hundred, three hundred
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: people standing. Maybe you had the Yard Buds on Fridays
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: were there at Clapton then with Jeff Beck, then with
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Page lost the guitar players to go and watch
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: their Spencer Davis group with Steve Winwood would play there.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: The Nice Who, kind of the the the precursor to
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Emerson Lincoln Palmer, lots of good music. I saw a
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: billboard for one particular week of nineteen sixty five, and
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: I realized that I'd seen three shows that week. And
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: I saw The Who on Tuesday, I saw the Yarbas
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: on Friday, I saw the Bill Evans Trio on Thursday.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, well, what a week that was. That was
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: just fantastic education.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Okay, when you saw these bands, all these bands went
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: on to be household names, and certainly and who live
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: at Leads they had the poster from the Marque when
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: you saw them at the Marquis. Did you think they
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: would be as big as they would become? Were they
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: as good as they became?
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: In some ways? I think when the who were writing
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: really great three minute pop songs before they became you know,
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: you know, like an arena band or a stadium band.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: I think that they were just a great club band.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: And you know that they had a lot of visual
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: stuff that they had all that great pop art ideas
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: you know from people like Peter Blake. So that was
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: very very exciting. And they played very loud and they
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: would destroy their instruments on a regular basis, which is
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: quite exciting too. So you know, a very anarchic, very
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: very visual and as a fifteen sixteen year old, I mean,
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: just what you wanted to see really, you know, it
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: was that kind of thing, you know, you know, the
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: yard Bers were just a pretty good R and B band.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: I think when we heard the real stuff from Chicago,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: when we actually heard Howling Wolf Records, we raised that
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: Yelberds were actually a bit kind of wimpy, you know,
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: they didn't have that kind of testosterone, you know, the
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: running through the music that you heard on Muddy Waters
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: and records. But yeah, exciting stuff. And you can see
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: great jazz as well. In London, all the good jazz
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: came through and you can see great classical concerts as well.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: So it was a real small gas board of excitement there.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: Did you ever see the Beatles live?
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: No? I never did. I probably wouldn't have been able
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: to hear them anyway. Reports say that you just couldn't
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: hear a thing, but it sure was exciting.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: And what about the Stones?
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: I saw the Stones quite early on. I didn't think
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: they were very good. Actually I still don't think they're
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: very good, but I think live that they're not that interesting.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: But they've made some great records. There's some absolutely definitive,
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: wonderful rock records that that you know, pretty much set
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: the standard for decades for other bands, which records what
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: the things least like you know, Street Fighting Man, Brown Sugar,
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: you know that generation of Stones records I think are
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: really really great, fantastic records. They've got great grooves, great sounds,
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: and they just does everything that a rock band should do.
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: And you know the bands that followed, like Pearl Jamer
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: kind of in the shadow of what the Stones could
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: achieve in the seventies, I think.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: So in America started with the Beatles, and although the
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: Stones were an element, we got all what was called
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: the British invasion, everything from Herman's Hermits to Freddie and
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: the Dreamers. What degree did they have impact? Were you
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: paying attention to them in the UK?
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: Well, in the UK it was just like saturation, you know,
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: especially the bands from the North, the bands from Liverpool
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: and Manchester pretty much saturated that the charts for a
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: long time. You know. All we could offer from the
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: South was the Dave Clark five, which there made some
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: good records, but they were not a good band at all.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: So you know, the Beatles, the Holly's, you know, the
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Mersey Beats, the Big Three, the Escorts, you know, all
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: these Liverpool bands. We're actually pretty good and what we
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: really enjoyed them and tried to learn stuff from them,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: So why did the innovation come from the North as
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: opposed to the South?
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Good question, I think because Liverpool is a seaport, you
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: had sailors, American sailors bringing over records and perhaps you know,
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: trading them in in in you know, in pawn shops
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: and junk shops. So in Liverpool you could buy Motown
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: records at a time when when they were harder to
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: find in London. And obviously you know that the Beatles,
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: for instance, started off doing some great covers. You know,
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: you've got a hold on me things things like that,
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: All these these great Motown and R and B records,
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: the well, we never heard in the South. You know,
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: where we heard we heard chuck Berry and bow Didley,
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: where we heard that kind of R and B stuff
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: from Chicago, but where we never heard we never heard Motown,
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: particularly until they started to tour in the UK.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: And I have to ask before we move forward, what
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: about skiffle?
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: Skiffle? My god, yeah, interesting UK phenomenon. Why I asked myself,
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: why was this skiffle? Very strange thing?
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: So?
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: I think because after World War Two kids didn't have
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: any money, you know that there was there were these
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: teenagers who were just impoverished. Things are still unrational, you know,
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: through the fifties, you know, you like couldn't get sweets,
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: you couldn't get butter. You know, it's crazy, and no
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: one could afford a real instruments and so people would
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: make homemade instruments there that they'd make, you know, the
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: washtub bass, sorry, the wash the washboard rhythm and then
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: the washtub bass, and if you can afford a guitar
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: or two that that would be good as well. And
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: they just played like led Belly songs, Wouldy Guthrie songs. Uh.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: There was a famous skiffle band run by Lonnie Donegan
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: and he he had major hits in the UK. I
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: think he recorded That's the Right Mama, like a week
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: after Elvis Presley or a week before Elvis Presley. So
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: so he nearly invented rock and roll, but not quite.
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: But he was kind of the beginning of the skiffle
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: movement and and it just spread like wildfire through Britain.
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: But because it was homemade music, you could make the
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: instruments yourself, you know, the Beatles filmed the Quarrymen, you know,
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: John and Paul. Anyway, and I don't know how long
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: it lasted a couple of years. Maybe it was just
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: a strange British phenomenon. And then after that you had
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: a traditional jazz boom in Britain as well. You're concurrent
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: with rock and roll. You had this revival of New
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: Orleans traditional jazz basically in the nineteen twenties. So you
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: had all these bands like like I could Builk playing
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: trad jazz. And my sister, you know, used to used
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: to go and dance to traditional jazz. That was one
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: of her things. Concurrent with rock and roll. Very strange.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: And let's go back to the clubs. You know, you
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: talk about the yard Birds. They have clapped in, they
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: have Page, they have Beck. Of course, you have John Mayle,
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: you have Peter Green, Fleetwood Mac. To what degree did
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: not only you go to see these these guitarists, were
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: they influential to you?
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: Well, I learned how to copy those guys, and then
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: I kind of rejected it, and I thought that this
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: is an overcrowded world, the world of the the British
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: blues man, you know, the Peter Greens and the Eric Clapton's,
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: you know, and the Mick Taylor's, et cetera, et cetera,
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: et cetera. I just said, well, I'm going to play
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: something different, you know, I'm not going to be like
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: these guys. So when we started playing the traditional music,
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: that was much more of an influence for me, so
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: that I have more of a Celtic influence on on
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: my guitar playing.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, you form Fairboard Convention. How long do you play
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: before you get hooked up with Joe Boyd?
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: Not very long, I think. I think I left school
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: in May sixty seven. We were playing around the clubs
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: that summer. I think it was something like September when
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: we hooked up with Joe. Joe discovered us, Haha, as
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: they say, so just a few months really, which is
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: extraordinary in so many ways.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Well, you know a lot of bands in the US
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: they formed and they said, oh, we got to get
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: a record deal. Was that in Fairport Convention's mind? Or
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: did Joe Boyd find you and then you got a
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: record deal.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: We weren't thinking about a record deal at all. We
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: just thought we're thrilled to be playing anywhere, to be
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: playing music, and to actually be an opening act for
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: people like the Pink Floyd. I mean that was just
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: staggering to us. They're just amazing. So Joe offering to
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: record us felt amazing and we were very very excited.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: So how did Joe actually find you. Joe ran a
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: club called the UFO Club in London. I think it
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: was only one day a week. It was most of
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: the time it was an Irish club, and on the
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: weekends it suddenly became uh, you know, light shows and
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: hippies and all that stuff. And we were opening for
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: the Pink Floyd and Joe came to the dressing room
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: and said, I really enjoyed what you guys played. Let's
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: make a record. It was it was some cliched you know,
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: and we did.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, you know, you make a record, you have
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: to sign a deal. It involves money. To what degree
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: were you conscious of that?
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, Joe had a relationship at that point with
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: the Who's managers kittlee em Bird and Yeah, Lamberton Stanley, Yeah,
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: and they had all so Joe just said, let's do
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: a record for those guys, and we did. We just
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: did a single for those guys, and then after the single,
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: what we kind of looked around a bit wider and
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: we did the next record on PolyGram and then really
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: we jumped to the label everybody really wanted to be on,
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: which was Island Records at that time, which was you know,
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: the label that that was the place to be, a
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: really good, well run independent record label.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: And in retrospect, how good a producer was Joe Boyd.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: I think he was a very good producer. I would
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: have to put him in the context of working with
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: John Wood as an engineer. John Wood was a great engineer,
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: and the combination of the two of them I think
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: was excellent and led to great results. And Fairport Records act.
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: I think the first record doesn't sound particularly good, but
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: from the second record onwards, the records sound really good.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: You know, Sandy Denny records sound really good. Nick drect
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: records sound really good. So whatever that was, whatever that
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: that team produced in that particular room, the soundt ning
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: studio was a great studio. The mixing desk was a
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: great mixing desk. You know, all these things contribute to
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: to the to the sound of those records, and it's
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: all analog, and that that stuff sounds absolutely great. Still
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: sounds great, and I think it sounds good because Joe's
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: approach was really not to be too fiddly about special effects,
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: about hyping that the sound too much. He would kind
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: of try to get a naturalistic sound on records, and
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: I think that gives you a certain longevity, so that
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: stuff doesn't sound dated. I can listen to an incredible
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: string band record and it just sounds fresh as a day.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, it just sounds wonderful.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: Interesting act, Go back one step. How did the band
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: actually come together? The first iteration of the band.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I had a school friend who lived next door
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: to Ashley Hutchings and the bass player in Fairport. And
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: at some point Ashley's blue blues band, the guitar player
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: was sick or something like it couldn't make a show.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: That's so I filled in for him. I filled in
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: for another actually's bands. He had a jug band going
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: as well, so I think I filled in for that
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: as well. And at a certain point he and Simon Nicol,
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: who is also a neighbor of Ashley's, and I, the
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: three of us said well, let's put a band together.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Let's let's put together a folk rock band. You know,
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: we all love that kind of music. We love the birds,
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: we love the loving Spoonful, you know what, we love
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: all those great lyric writers. Let's do something along those lines.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: So that was really the beginning. So three of us
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: we had a drama temporarily called Sean Fraser. He didn't
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: last very long. Martin lamble that the drummer who joined
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: us came to see us at the show and said
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: I can do a better job, and he fit in very,
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: very very quickly. So really four of us. Judy Diable
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: was a singer who was again local to another neighbor
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: of Ashley's. And so it's a five piece to begin with. Yeah, okay,
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: and how about Ian Matthews. Yeah, In Matthews joined because
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: we felt we were a bit vocal light. Judy was
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: really our only singer and she's more of a folks
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: singer than a rock singer. So Ian added a bit
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: more spine to the vocal department.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how did you find Ian?
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: He was recommended me. He was in a bank called Pyramid.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: When Pyramid broke up, he was at a loose end
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: and someone said, oh, that there's a band auditioning. You
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: should go down, and I just came down to the studio.
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: It wasn't really like an audition. Well, we were working
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: on a song and he said, we just said, oh,
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: sing some harmony on that song. So so he just
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: kind of started working with us and that was it.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: Really that there wasn't any sense of audition or or
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: you're in the band or anything. He just he was
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: instantly in it.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: And how did Judy Devil get replaced by Sandy Danny?
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: Well, Judy, as I said, was really a focusinger who
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: did better with a lighter accompaniment. She had a hard
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: time singing over the volume of a band. So we
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: asked Judy to leave. We auditioned for Sandy.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: A little bit slow. How do you tell her she's
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: out of the bit? Well, how does she react?
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: How does she react? She reacted? You know, how can
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: you react that? You know, you've been playing with your
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: friends for for a year or so and then suddenly
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: they asked you to leave. It's it's a tough one,
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: but we had to be realistic. We had to say,
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: you know, your Judy, you know you're yeah, you're you're
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: not singing in tune. You know, you're pushing too much
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: to sing over over the band. And I think actually
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: who was kind of the it was kind of actually
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: his band really at that point, and actually we would
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: do the hiring and firing as so he took it
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: on one side and went for a walk and broke
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: the news to her. But it's it's a tough it's
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: it's the worst thing to do in a band, and
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: the second worst thing to do it is auditioning. So
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: we were very glad that after probably only two or
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: three singers, Sandy came in and was just like on
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: another level. Actually, she was absolutely wonderful stella and so
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: she was hired instantly.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Did she have any status or she just some girl
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: came in and sang. Were you aware of who she
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: was prior to auditioning her.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well we were aware of who she was. I'm
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: not sure i'd ever seen her. She was singing mostly
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: in folk clubs, but had a very good reputation in
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: folk clubs, and you know, it was a friend of
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: a friend of a friend and all that kind of stuff.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: You know, lots of social connections, but really, you know,
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: it was a leap for Sandy, I think, and a
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: leap for us as well. But it was something that
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: just worked really well. From the beginning. She was so good,
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: and I think she was looking for a new challenge
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: and I think she was really happy to be in
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: that environment at that time.
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: And at some point there's a car accident where our
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: van accident where the drummer and your girlfriend are killed.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that?
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was sixteen nine. So we were traveling
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: back from Birmingham to London, which about one hundred and
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: twenty miles, something we did all the time. But we
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: didn't stay in a hotel when we played Birmingam. We
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: just drive back and our driver had been ill. He
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: had an ulcer, so he hadn't been sleeping very well.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: Sandy traveled separately. She was traveling with her boyfriend. So
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: you know, the van went off the road, somersaulted. It
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: killed Jenny Franklin, who was my girlfriend at the time.
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: It killed our druma, Martin Lamble. Very very traumatic for
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: the band, as you can imagine.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: Well, how was it for you with your girlfriend passing away?
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: Well, it seemed unreal, you know in some ways, being
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: twenty years old, it was my first experience of somebody
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: dying and actually watching somebody die, So it was very
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: tough and it took me a long time to get
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: a real perspective on it. Were very, very difficult, and
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: I think you know, in those days, you didn't necessarily
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: have counseling, you didn't have therapy, You just kind of
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: I think it was close enough to World War Two
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: that the people said, Okay, well, you know, put yourselves together,
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: you know, just get on with it, come on, you know,
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: move on to the next thing. So we'd have aggrieved properly,
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: it just wasn't on the agenda in those days, so
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: we just kind of dealt with it or didn't deal
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: with it. And I think we made bad decisions for
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: the next couple of years in many ways. I think
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of stuff was kind of crazy.
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: You know. I actually had a nervous breakdown at some point.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: Rest of us we're not in a good mental state
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: for a couple of years.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: And what were some of those bad decisions?
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: Bad decisions that people leaving the band actually actually left
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: the band. Sandy left the band. I left the band,
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: and I think given a different set of circumstances, it
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: would have stayed together much longer. But it was all
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: it's all a little upside down at that point.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: And so was I in the first one to leave.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Ian left, Yeah, it was the first one to leave.
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: He was really into a different kind of repertoire, I
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: should say. You know, he loved country rock, and when
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: he left Fairport, he formed a band called.
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: Southern Comfort.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: Southern Comfort, Yeah, and that was much more Ian's thing,
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: and he kind of stayed in that style really for
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: the rest of his career. And yeah, Ian's a great
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: thing and he's still a great singer, and he's made
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: some wonderful music over the years.
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: Ok Ian has a hit international hit with a cover
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: of Woodstock Fairboard does not have a hit. Are you
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: jealous or what do you think about that?
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: We didn't think hits were important at that time. It
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: was really about albums in sort of nineteen sixty nine
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventy to have a hit album would have been
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: our ambition. And I think we had a couple that
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: scraped the top ten in the UK. But you know,
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: singles that was really for pop bands. You know what,
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: We weren't paying attention at all to singles. Maybe a
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: single would help you to sell an album. That was
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: the virtue.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, you're making album after album. Our finance is tight
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: or is there enough to live and be?
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: Okay, we made cheap records back in those days. You know,
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: a record wouldn't cost you that that much or you know,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: ten fifteen thousan pounds wasn't really a lot of money
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: even then, so we were always in the studio and
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Joe would bankroll us anyway. If we needed funds to record,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: he kind of find money from somewhere and just stick
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: it on our never ending bill. But we were always
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: in the studio. We'd sometimes after shows, we'd drive back
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: to London and go in the studio and just record
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: all night.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: And at what point did you start writing songs?
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: Well, I started co writing for the first Fairpoor album
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: in sixty seven, and I think I co wrote because
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: I didn't have the confidence to write something on my own.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: And I think in sixty eight I wrote a song
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: called Meat on the Ledge, which was my first solo effort.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: And having done it, I kind of got comfortable with
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: the idea. I thought, I, Okay, I can write lyrics.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: I can write the melody as well. This is fun.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: I love doing this. I'll do it some more, but
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: I'm still doing it.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: And at this late date, what's your process.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: At the early day?
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: No, now today or you know, listen, you know you
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: have all a billion things. People you know, write the music,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: then write the lyrics. Some people write it all at
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: the same time. Some people go back the snippets they've
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: recorded previously. Build a song brick by brick? How do
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: you do it? Oh?
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: I do it? I do all of those.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I write lyrics first, sometimes I write melody first.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it comes all at once. That that that's like
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: a gift from God. That's wonderful. Uh. Yeah. I don't
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: like to limit the possibilities. I like to give as
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: many doors open to the creative process as possible. And
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: you know, it's it's hard to define what the process is.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: Many have tried and most have failed.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: So did you have any advanced morning that Sandy was
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: going to leave the band? Or was that a shock?
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: I think Sandy was just in a bit of a state,
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: you know, I think we all were. We weren't thinking
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: rationally necessarily. Sandy could be fairly, you know, up and
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: down in terms of mood. So and she hated flying.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: And we were on our way to some shows in
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: Denmark which we had to fly to, and she wasn't
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: on the plane. And I suppose she missed a few
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: other shows before that. So so I think we thought
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: that was the our straw, and wonderful though she was,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: maybe we could live without her.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: Well. It certainly changed the character of the band. I mean,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: that was the first album. First time I saw the
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: band with full house. Was there any thought that while
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: we need to replace.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: Her, Yeah, there were thoughts that we should replace her,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: but nobody really sprang to mind. So in a spirit
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: of camaraderie, I think we just said, oh, we'll split
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: the vocals between us, which especially what we did. So
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: none of us felt we were the greatest singer in
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: the world at that point, but well, we just divided
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: it up. You know. We'd split songs sometimes into different singers,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: we'd harmonize songs. I think we felt a little exposed,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: but I think we also thought that we were a
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: very good instrumental band at that point and that was exciting,
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: and that if we were a little over balance, if
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: we're little under balanced on vocals, then we were over
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: balanced instrumentally. That would make up for it.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: So how did you decide to leave?
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, again, I think still some trauma from the accident.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking clear. It's like a gut reaction. I thought, well,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: I've been in band since I was twelve, you know,
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: I want to do something on my own for a while. Really,
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: that was all it was, you know, these people were
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: my best friends. But I literally just couldn't go on.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: I just hit a wall. I'd had it, so I
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: had to get out.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: And at that point was it about playing sessions or
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: cutting your own record.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: I had ambitions to make my own record, but I
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: survived on session work. I did a lot of session
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: work for the next two years, which was great. I
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: didn't even go looking for it. Just the phone started
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: ringing a wonderful thing, and my diary started filling up,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: and that was great that that kept me going. Yeah,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: for a couple of years. But I've been accumulating songs
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: and I thought I'd really like to put these songs
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: on a record. So at some point, I, you know,
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: I went into the studio with John Wood and I
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: recorded them and that was the first solo album.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: Can you tell us what it was like being a
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: session musician in a couple of sessions you played.
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: On session musician? Well, first of all, it was nice
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: because I was working with people mostly that I knew
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: and producers that I knew. So, you know, I play
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: on Ian Matthew's record, I planned Sandy Denny's record, and
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: then I play on that kind of the folk rock records,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: singers and names I can't even remember. But you know,
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: you get to know a producer and he'd say, can
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: you come and do this session? And you say, okay,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: can you You know, that was great? Can you now
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: do some of my other artists? So you get to
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: do a roster, You get book for a whole roster
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: of artists, and you know, occasionally I'd step out of
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: that kind of comfort area into like a real pop
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: session where you're playing with you know, seasoned, hardened, first
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: call session musicians, and that was fun. Sometimes too, that
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: could be great. But yeah, and a lot sometimes you
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: didn't know who the artist was. That was true. Maybe
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: a third of the time. Yeah, you didn't know who
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: the artist was. You just turn up and do it.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, you make the first solo album, it certainly gets
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: good distribution in the US. It's PND it first, then
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: conventional wisdom changes. What was your experience of Henry the
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: Human Flyer.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: My experience, well, you know, I thought it was an
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: okay record, and I was kind of alarmed at the
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: reviews that it got, which were very negative, and at
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: a certain point that they were so negative that I thought, well,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: I'm going to treat this as a positive. I'm going
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: to think I've gone somewhere that people aren't ready for.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: I must be ahead of the game. How can people
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: not understand this record? Yeah, the arrogance of youth. So
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: I just thought, well, I shall persevere. You know, this
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: is one thing. I'll make another record and I'll see
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: how they like that one. But it was a notoriously
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: bad selling record. According to Warner Brothers, it was their
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: worst selling record ever, which I I'm quite proud of.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: How do you meet Linda? When does it become a
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: rong antique relationship? And when do you start making music together?
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, I think I met Lenda in sixty nine
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: when we were making a Fairport record call Leigion Leave,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: and she was a friend of Sandy's, and we have
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: Sundy's best friends really, and at a certain point we
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: became romantically involved. And for about six months there or
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: maybe longer, maybe it was a year, we didn't see
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: much of each other. But because she was working on
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 2: various projects and I was playing with Sandy, I was
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: playing with Ian, I was on the road, I was
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: doing us tours, and we said, well, you know, if
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: we work together, well why don't we just work together
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: and we'll be a duo and at least we can
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: travel together, we'll spend some time together. So that's really
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: what we did. And we went back to the folk
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: club So that seemed, you know, a way to earn
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: a living at that point, not having a manager all
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: that kind of stuff, where we just what is the
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: folk clubs got paid in cash, you know, gas was
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: you know, twenty five cents a gallon or something. Everything
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: was very cheap. Never stayed in hotels, stayed in the
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: promoter's house, spare bedroom, and we were comparatively well off.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: And we did that for you know, like a year,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: and then at a certain point where we thought, well,
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: we're going around in circles here, you know, the folk clubs,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: at the folk clubs, but that they don't translate to
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: something else, that there's no progress. You have to kind
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: of jump out of there. So we took on a
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: manager and then we started playing concerts and sometimes where
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: we hired a band, where we had a band sometimes
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: and we started to tour more and you know, we
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: have a bit more of a career there.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, you made a number of albums with her, and
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: the first one that really got noticed in the US
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: was poured down like silver in seventy five, and then
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: four albums after that, in eighty two, Shootout the Lights
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: gets phenomenal reviews, and then the duo was over. So
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: the period of time that you're with Linda, what was
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: it like on the inside.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, we're raising a family and trying to
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: work at the same time, so we're always compromised to
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: some extent, and we were never really able to do
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: a US tour. We could never quite bring the whole
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: family over or whatever, you know, travel with a nanny. Well,
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: we didn't quite have the budget or the the inclination
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: really at that point to tour America. So you know,
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: touring was bits and pieces. Recording was bits and pieces
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: where we're kind of throwing it together as we could
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: when we could. But it wasn't like Light. We were
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: full on trying to promote ourselves at that point.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, but when you know, the band breaks up or
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: the act breaks up at the height of it's both
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: commercial and critical success. I mean, all of a sudden
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: you get these phenomenal reviews. It's the opposite of Henry
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: the Human Fly. You know, is there anything well, I'm
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: onto something. How do we maximize this?
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. I think you know, it was
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 2: the end of our relationship. But yeah, we were married
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: for ten years. We were in a musical relationship for
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: ten years, and it was kind of you know, I
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: think we've grown a part enough. You know that it
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 2: was it showed, you know, it was significant enough to
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: uh to break up. You know. Yeah, musical partnerships can
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: be pretty finite as well, So it was just time,
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: what can I say. And the lights were successful, I mean,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: there wasn't really a way to capitalize on that. I
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: think we tried to do a US tour at that point,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: but it was a bit of a disaster on the whole.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: And you know, I went off and pursued a solo career.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: Now, at some point you get involved in Eastern religion here.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: Sufiism, yeah, well a Sufism yeah yeah. Another band I knew,
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: a band called Mighty Baby, who were good friends who
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: actually I did a lot of session work with. Uh.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: It embraced Sufism. That that went to North Africa and
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: they met a teacher there and they came back and
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: I thought, oh that these guys are different. Well, what's
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: going on? You know? So I kind of hung out
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: with them and I thought, well, this is for me
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: And at that point, is there a point where you
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: stop your musical career.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: There was a point where when I just felt like
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: absolutely drained musically speaking, I had nothing left to offer.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: I was like empty on the inside, and I thought, well,
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: I've got to stop for a while. I think it
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: was at seventy six seventy seven, And you know, I
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: ran an antique shop for a while. I had a
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: little antique business which was moderately successful. But after a
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: year I kind of got reinspired, you know. That's that.
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: Then punk came along, you know that, the Sex Pistols,
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: and I thought, well, this is it. This is the
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: energy that you need to play music. This is this
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 2: is going back to like Elvis the Sun Sessions. It's
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: got the same kind of energy to it. Really, so
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: this should be inspiring me. And it did, and I
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: wanted to get back into music.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: So you make a couple of records with Joe Boyd.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: What's that experience like?
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: Really good? Well, Joe and I've always been friends and
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: I've always admired Joe's uh, Joe's musical intelligence and ability
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: to spot talent, all that kind of stuff, all the
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: stuff you know you expect from people like you know,
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: John Hammond Senior. Joe's a bit like that. You know,
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: he could spot potential and I think he made such
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: a difference to the British music scene in the sixties
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: and seventies. No one else had the ears, I don't
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: think to sign the incredible string band Fairbaal Convention, Sandy Denny,
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: John Martin, Dudu Paquana, Nick Drake. No one else could
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: see that stuff in the right perspective. And that's why
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: we love Joe because he seemed like he was on
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: the same wavelength as us.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 1: And how did you end up working with Mitchell Frum
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: after a couple of albums with Joe?
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: Well, at that point I was signed to Capitol Records.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: We had the same management, the same record label as
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: Credit House, and my manager said, oh, you should hear
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: this Credit House record. Mitchell Froom's has such a great
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: job on it. You should have them on your record.
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: And I love the Credit House record. I though it's fantastic,
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: and I thought, well, if I can get you know,
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: ten percent of that spirit on my record, that would
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: be great, and I'm not sure that ever happened, but
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: but Mitchell was great fun to work with. I really
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: enjoyed working with Mitchell. Well. I think we did like
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: four records or something together. It was just fun. We
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: were just enjoying ourselves, which is what you're supposed to
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: do in the studio. Really great fun.
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: Well, what was different working with Mitchell's supposed to Joe.
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: More quirky about sound. I think in a sense, you know,
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: Joe was more naturalistic and he just kind of let
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: things happen. He basically sit reading the baseball scores in
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: the in the in the Herald Tribune and let things happen.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: Mitchell was a bit more hands on than that. And
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: also between Mitchell and engineer Chair Blake, there was this
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: idea of kind of garage to garage excuse me, that's
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: you know, the stuff that sounds like it's been recorded
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: low fi. And I think we we went in for
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: a lot of that. That that kind of idea that
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: you make it sound you know, funky again, you make
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: it sound like it was recorded at Sun Studios. I
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: mean it kind of all goes back to that again,
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: so kind of funky drum sounds, funky room sounds, and
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of purposefully downgrading the high five if
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: you like. You know, So I think we did a
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: lot of that, and I think that's the difference.
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: And then the rumor INSI album happens and there's a
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: burst of energy in terms of acceptance on the exterior.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: What did it feel like on the interior?
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: Uh, it felt different. Well, you know, I was on
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: Capitol Records, you know, for for a few albums, and
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: then uh, there's a new head of the company comes
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: in and the company kind of transforms and I actually
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: get my records promoted, uh, which I can't say really
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: happened much before that. But suddenly I have that the
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: Capitol Records machine is working on my behalf as opposed
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: to you know, everybody else's behalf. So that was the difference. Really.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: Hail Milgram, who became the head of the company and
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: just a great guy and a great friend to this day,
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 2: just a wonderful music person. You know, sometimes you think,
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: you know, record executives forget the reason that they were
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: They went into the record business, and they get caught
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: up in numbers and percentages and you know, chart positions
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff. It's always refreshing when
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: record executives really care about music, and it just doesn't
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: always happen.
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: So who signed you with Capitol Records? Originally?
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: Uh, good question. I can't remember.
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, but this was before hal.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: Again, I can't remember.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, how does it end with Capitol Records? For you?
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: There it ends, my contract ran out, hailed left by
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: that time, my contract ran out, and basically they said,
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: let's do a compilation album and goodbye. And that was fine.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: I was glad at that point because a lot of
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: people were beginning to question the role of the major
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: labels because you never seem to earn any money. And
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: I think people thought, well, maybe, you know, if I
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: work with an independent label or if I put out
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: my own records, I'll see some return. And that did
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: turn out to be the case.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, do you receive any royalties from all the records
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: you've done?
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 2: A streaming has basically killed royalties. Roches used to be
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: half my income, half my income. That's recording rotter's and
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: songwriting and royalties. It was about fifty percent of my income.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: It's now about two percent of my income. And that's
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 2: down to you know, Spotify and or these companies paying
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: you virtually nothing for putting your intellectual property out there,
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: and people being able to do hundreds of thousands, but
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: somehow it's millions of streams of your music and paying
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: you ten bucks. Is it a moral? Yes, it is
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: a moral. What can you do about it? I don't
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: know what you do about it. Sustainable model, No, it
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: isn't a a styinable model. Musicians deserve better.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back, because you know the usual model
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: of a record deal is they advance you money. They
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: do or do not sell records, forget the creative accounting.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: But you're earning back at a very low rate. So
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: there's some household named bands that are still in the red.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: So where did the royalties come from? The royalties come
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: from the Fairport records, from the Richard and Linda records,
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: from the solo records? What generated money forgetting the songwriting?
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: Just?
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: Were there ever any recording royalties?
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: Actually recording anti is? I probably make a bit from
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: the really early stuff, from the Fairport stuff a bit,
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: But I mean that these records that they turn over,
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: but they don't they don't sell a lot, particularly you know,
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 2: on a label like Capital. I enjoyed my time at Capital.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: But you get an advance from which you would make
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: the record, and you pay your your manager fifteen percent,
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: and you pay the lawyer probably ten percent for making
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: the deal, and and and and you wouldn't end up
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: with anything. You'd also, yeah, you'd make a video in
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 2: those days, and the video budget could be like seventy
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: five thousand dollars, which you didn't necessarily want to spend,
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 2: but the video department wanted to spend that money just
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: so that that it didn't go down. That they went
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: to every artist to spend the maximum, so that the
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: video department could keeping being funded to the max. Someone
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: a Capital told me, at some point, you know, just
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 2: before I left, I think that I had never made
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: a record that lost money, and yet I still appear
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: to capitally. Am I about you know, four hundred thousand
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: dollars which I'll never recoup. It's like the film industry.
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 2: You know, you have all these write offs, yet you
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: try to never show a profit. Like you try to
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: never show a profit on a film, you try to
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: never show up a profit on a record. Is it corrupt? Yes,
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: you know it wouldn't happen in other industries. It only
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: happens in creative industries.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, prior to streaming, literally, what was generating the royalty income? Sales?
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: What was it?
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, records on independent labels. You know, I
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 2: was on Joe Boyd's label for a while, Hannibal Records,
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: and that I actually actually got paid for records, so
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: that would be good. But mostly I'd be earning rossies
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: from songwriting rather than performance, not that much from performance
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: at all.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: And the songwriting royalties that you were getting were from covers.
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 1: Where was the money coming from?
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: From your own records and from covers, A mixture of things.
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 2: And that's still the case, except the numbers are now
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: are now tiny.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: So when they were at their max, how much money
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: were we talking about?
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure I should say, really was it six figures?
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: Six figures could be okay a good year.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, So now we're in this, you know, all these
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: years later, a couple of decades on, we're in this
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: internet streaming era. Needless to say, is you just said
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: your royalties are down? Has streaming has the Internet benefited
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: you at all? Or has it only been a negative?
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: Hard to quantify, but probably if people can stream your music,
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 2: they might come and see you live, and live is
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: the place you own money these days, and that's why
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: everybody is out there playing live. Apart from that, it's
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: a big negative. If I owned more of my own music,
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: I would not put it on streaming services.
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. Let's say you own the
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: music and you license it directly to the streaming company,
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: which means you would get sixty odd sense okay, especially
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: with songwriting, and you could sell physical copies, there would
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: be some money there.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you might be overwriting what an artist actually
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 2: gets from a streaming services. I get points zero zero
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: zero six of a dollar.
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 1: I don't want to get into a long discussion of
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: stream streaming royalties on demand pace different from radio streaming,
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: blah blah blah. All I know is people who are
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: a lot less famous than you, who are earning just
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: because they own everything, are doing earning six figures from
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: streaming companies. But let's forget that for now. So you
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 1: made records that were independent, Now the new record is
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: with new asked, do you have a feeling about making
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: a record independently or as opposed to a company.
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: Well, I consider news to be like a bigger independent label,
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: and they've been great for me. I did another record
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: in New West. They've been great, They've been absolutely great.
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you a different question. You put out
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: a couple of records on your own label. Yeah, what
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: was that experience? Like?
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 2: It's good? I mean, it's that there's a lot to cover.
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 2: It's hard work. You really do have to work at it.
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 2: It's easy to put stuff up on bank camp, for instance,
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: and then you do get a good return on it,
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: but people have to find it, like most things on
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: the internet that people have to actually find you. So
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 2: a little promotion doesn't hurt. You can hire own publicists,
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: I suppose sometimes that's not switch about it. I did
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 2: an instrumental record back in the seventies which I made
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: for six hundred pounds and I basically delivered it myself
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: to the to the record stores. That was quite interesting.
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: That was an interesting exercise in being the hands on
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 2: label manager.
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, when you made independent records though in the last
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: couple of decades, by time the cycle was done, were
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 1: you in the black or the red?
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: I'd be in the black. I'd be in the black.
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: So why did you decide to go back just because
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: it was so much work to do it yourself.
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: I don't know. Sometimes it's a matter of coordinating, coordinating,
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 2: work with with your management, coordinate with your agent, can
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 2: augizing work with the record company, and doing something that
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: that can work, you know, give it given a balance
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 2: of those elements. So sometimes you want something that has
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: a bit more cloud to it to push a record,
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: let people know it's there.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 1: Okay, So this record that came out, did you cut
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: it independently and then make a deal with New West
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: or do you make a deal with New West and
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: then make the record.
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: I made the record independently and then went to the
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: record companies.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: So you had enough cash in your coffers to do
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: it yourself.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean it's a cheap record. So tell me
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: cheap in quality of course, ye?
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 1: Right right? Tell me how you did it, right, tell
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 1: me how you did it, How I did it?
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 2: How amde it went into a studio.
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: Well let's go back. Okay, wait, wait, you get divorced,
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: you get remarried, you have COVID, I mean the COVID period.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 1: Did you ever get COVID? Oh? Yeah, a couple of times. Yeah, okay,
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 1: so serious, So when do you decide you're going to
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: make another record, because no one, you don't have a contract,
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: No one's breathing down your throat. When do you decide
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: I want to do it?
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 2: Well, we figured that we couldn't really go into the
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 2: studio during COVID, so we had to wait that out.
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 2: So I made a couple of things at home in
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 2: my home studio. But then I had a lot of
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 2: material that I really wanted to get out there, you know,
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: get it off my chest. So I discussed that with
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 2: my management and I said, you know, I was living
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: in Woodstock at the times, and so I said that
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 2: there's this really good studio in Woodstock I'd like to use.
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: So we arranged for the musicians to fly in from
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: lah and book studio time. Made the record in a week.
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: Basically sounds really good. Ah, does it have a Woodstock
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 2: sound to it? I don't know. Maybe there's a Woodstock
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 2: vibe there somewhere.
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: So when it's all said and done, how much did
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: it cost you?
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure? I actually don't know. Okay, not a
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: lot cheap.
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: Okay. So the manager you presently have he is or
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: she is.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm with a company called Vector Management and My
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 2: manager is Brad.
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, how long have you been with Vector Effect?
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: For about ten years?
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: So what can you tell us about managers?
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: Let's say about managers. There's almost as many kinds of
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: managers as there are human beings. I mean, there's a
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: huge range there. I've had managers who were kind of
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: screamed down the phone style, you know, old school, old school.
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: I've had managers who take far too high a percentage.
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: The nice thing about Vector is they're a big enough
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: company that if you do want to do something like
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 2: get on TV, they could probably do it for you.
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: That they could probably get you on the late night
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: chat shows. So that's nice.
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: That they are.
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 2: So you know, there are reasonable human beings. That they
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: like music that's important, and that they look out for
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: my interests, which is what I need from my management,
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 2: is you know, people who care about you and look
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 2: out for you.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: And what about agents.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: I have a wonderful agent in the States, Frank Riley,
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: who's been major now for like like twenty years, who again,
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: you know, things career. He doesn't just just book me
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 2: because the money is there. He'll think, Okay, you shouldn't
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: play this market too often, you know, let's go back
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 2: in another year or two. Just you know, a smart guy,
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 2: a very respected agent, and he's been wonderful. We have
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: a great relationship.
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: Okay. Needless to say, the business has changed radically from
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: when you first started. Okay, when you first started, there
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: were a limited number of albums released a year. I
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: remember in the early seventies when I went from twenty
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: five hundred to five thousand albums, people say, oh, that's
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: way too many. Now i'm streaming services, they'll get sixty
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: thousand tracks a day. So from making the music, A
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: lot of your contemporaries don't make any new music. A
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: lot of them had vast success. They say, I'm going
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: to spend all the time and effort and it's going
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: to make a very little dent in the universe.
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: True?
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: Does it the landscape affect you mentally and creatively? Knowing
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 1: no matter what you do, because nobody reaches everybody anymore,
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 1: it's not like the sixties or seventies. How does that
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 1: affect your motivation? I can't help doing what I do.
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: I can't help writing songs. I can't help being creative.
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: I can't help it. I'm driven by something. God knows
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: what it is, but I have to do it. I'm
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: not a happy human being if I don't do it.
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: People can't live with me if I don't do it,
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: family get upset with me if I'm not being creative.
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: So I'm always going to do it. And whether the
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: m is it gets out there or not, it doesn't matter.
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: I'd rather it did get out there. But if it doesn't,
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: well that's too bad. But I'm still going to do it.
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 2: And I've had this conversation with with other singer songwriters
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: of my age, who say, what's the point. What's the
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 2: point of me making music? What's the point of me
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 2: putting out records? Nothing ever happens? You know, my audience
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem to get any bigger, you know, I you know,
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 2: I break even, you know what, what's the point? And
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 2: and I kind of agree with them, except for that
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 2: fact that I can't stop doing it. I have to
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 2: do it, uh, you know. And my audience it doesn't
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 2: get smaller. I think it gets bigger actually slowly, slowly, slowly,
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 2: maybe through word of mouth. More people come to shows,
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 2: and as my old fai and move on to another
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: plane of existence. Younger people seem to fill up those slots,
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 2: so I just keep doing it. I can't help it.
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, are you doing anything actively you as an individual
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: to promote or grow the audience? Are you on social media?
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 1: Are you doing anything else? Or are you doing it
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 1: essentially the same way you've always done it.
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: I'm talking to you right now.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: Well, okay, and other people.
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 2: I do promotion. I go on you know, podcasts, and
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 2: I go on websites, and I physically turn up at
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 2: radio stations and I do all that stuff. Besides playing shows,
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 2: I do promote. And I suppose that after COVID, in
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 2: some ways it's easier because in the old days, I
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 2: used to expect you to to get on a plane
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 2: and visit two or three cities a day, you know,
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 2: to promote yourself and visit all these radio stations. Now
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 2: I can do it from home. I just could be
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 2: at one place and I can talk to a lot
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: of people from that one place. So in that sense,
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: it's easier. But I do it. Yes, I promote myself.
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 1: So you know, you make records. Everybody who's creative. You
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 1: know you're never going to do something bad. You've had
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 1: your chops. You've been doing it for so long. But
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: when you do something that's great, and artists know when
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: they do something that it's great, can't have an eleven
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: with every attempt. But when you do something great and
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: not much happens in the marketplace, is that disillusioning?
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: Not at this point, No, it doesn't accept it. I
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 2: accept it. I'm a seventy five year old artist and
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 2: I'm not catered for by popular media anymore. So I
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: do what I do. If I end up playing, you know,
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 2: in you know, assisted living facilities, you know, to fifteen people,
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 2: I'm still going to do it because I love to
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 2: do it. I love to perform. I love to communicate
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 2: music to people. This is stuff I love doing, and
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 2: it's not going badly for me. It's actually it's actually
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 2: going very well. You know. If I gets frustrated, it's
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: more with things like streaming that that kind of kill
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 2: so many people's ambitions and careers.
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you're telling me your audience is replenishing and
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 1: it's growing, but you really don't know what's causing.
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 2: The No, I don't know. I do what I do.
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 2: I put the energy out there, and I figure if
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 2: you do that, then it comes back in some form
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 2: and maybe it's not the form you're expecting that, but
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 2: it does come back eventually.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: And how many gigs do you do a year?
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 2: A year? One hundred?
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 1: And is that the right number? Would you like to
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: do more or fewer?
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 2: I might have to do less, I'm funny. It harder
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 2: to travel, so I might cut down to seventy five
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: or even fifty. I mean, I mean I've done that.
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 2: You know how many things I've done in my life,
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 2: like five thousand or something. It's a it's a lot
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 2: of shows, but I love it. I love it.
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, So do you love every gig? Or you playing
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 1: some of the songs thinking about are you going to
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: be late for the plane? This is a shitty hotel?
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, you just deal with that stuff. You know,
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 2: shitty hotel, You think, well, tomorrow will be a better hotel.
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 2: You know, a bad sound system, You think, well, you know,
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: what can you do? You know, if the audience can
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 2: hear you that, then you know tomorrow's another day. You
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 2: know you're something better. But there's always stuff on the road.
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: There's always you know, flight delays and you know snowstorms
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 2: and god knows what. But you just deal with that stuff.
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 2: You know, bad food, No food, you know, I mean
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 2: you just get on with it. You get on with it.
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm actually going about the gig itself, the hour
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: you're on stage.
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: Is it always rewarding? Sometimes not as rewarding? Does it
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: depend on the audience?
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 2: Uh? The audience is usually good. There's there's really a
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 2: bad audience. Rarely a bad audience, and maybe one gig
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 2: in four you're thinking. This is a struggle. And it's
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 2: usually done to the sound more than anything else here.
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 2: You know, you can't hear yourself on the stage. There's
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 2: too much blowback come from the back of the pa
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 2: or something. So everything just sounds a little like it's underwater.
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 2: You know that there are shows like that some nights
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 2: late this stuff sounds so great. You know that you've
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: got such a great sound on stage. Uh, you know,
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 2: most nights, I'm really enjoying myself and I'm really enjoying
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 2: the interaction with the audience. Most nights. I love it.
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 2: Nothing better.
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 1: And are you concerned at all about legacy?
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 2: Legacy? No, it couldn't go less.
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: So if you walk off this mortal coil and no
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 1: one remembers you, whether than the people from your generation,
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 1: that's totally fine with That's okay.
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 2: My legacy are my kids who play music, and they
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 2: play music very well, and I'm happy to pass the
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 2: baton to my children.
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: And how often do you play the guitar.
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 2: Every day? Some days I'm Some days I'm traveling all
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 2: day and I can't play the guitar. Sometimes I just
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 2: can't find the time to physically get my hands on it.
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 2: But most days I play something. Some days I play
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 2: like eight hours, you know, other days I play half
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 2: an hour.
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: And when you're doing that, you're noodling or you're rehearsing.
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 1: What are you doing whole stuff?
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 2: I mean, sometimes I'm just keeping my fingers working, pressing scales,
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. Sometimes I'm working ideas for songs.
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 2: That's usually what I'm doing, working on ideas for songs,
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 2: how to come up with the best accompaniment for a song,
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: or finding a melody for a song.
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 1: And you have it as dollar reputation as a guitarist,
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 1: to what degree do people track you down and say, hey,
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: I want to work with you, work with me not interesting? Well,
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, at the end of what I'm I'm saying,
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 1: come play on my record something like that.
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: Come play my record if I got time, Yeah, sure, absolutely.
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 2: Mostly I play on you know, people, whether it's some connection,
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 2: whether it's a friend of a friend or an actual
• 1:43:11
  Speaker 2: friend making a record. You know, my son just asked
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 2: me to plan his record. That's great. I'll do that one.
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I get too many offers to do that.
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 1: Actually, Okay, all these years later, your ex wife Linda
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: put out a record you're involved with that Fairport does
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: these annual celebrations you've appeared there? Does time heal all
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: wounds or were relationships pretty much steady the whole time? Well?
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 2: I get on fine with Linda. That's nice. I'm happy
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: to contribute it to her record. I think it's done very well.
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: It's a good record. Actually, lots of great contributors to
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 2: that record, Fairpol. They're like brothers. You know. Maybe you
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 2: don't see them every day, but when you do see them,
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 2: you get that old connection comes back. It's lovely. I'll
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 2: see them next weekend. I'm going to play at the
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 2: Properly Festival Forwood's Festival, and that'll be great to see everybody.
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: Be absolute blast.
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 1: And how many guitars do you own?
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 2: I try not to own too many, but I probably
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: owned twenty maybe thirty. I don't know. I like to
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 2: play them. I don't know to sit in the cupboard neglected.
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 2: So if I don't play a guitar, I'll try and
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 2: get rid of it. But yeah, not too many. I'm
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 2: not in the Keith Richard class.
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: And what are a couple of your favorites.
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 2: Well, I kind of like fenders. I suppose electric guitars.
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 2: I've got a bunch of Fenders, probably my oldest is
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 2: about fifty nine. Acoustics. I play Loudons that made in
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 2: Northern Ireland, wonderful guitars. I've probably got half a dozen
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 2: of those. But you know, they're all wonderful tools. You know,
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 2: I don't treat them too reverentially, but that they are
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 2: essential tools of the trade.
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 1: And if you go on the road, will you take
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: your favorites with you or say they're too valuable?
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 2: Favorites too valuable? I'll take my really good road guitars,
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: which are excellent. I'm very happy with.
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 1: And how about the amps amps?
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: I have a variety of As you know, I play
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 2: a lot of Fender amps, and if I don't take
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 2: my own, I'll hire Fender amps. I'm happy with Vox
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 2: as well. Fox. I see fifteen's and stuff I've got
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 2: nam called Divided by thirteen, which I use mostly on stage.
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: It's kind of weird. It's got hybrid amp, which is
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 2: absolutely wonderful. You know, But again, tours of the trade.
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 1: And you play solo, at least when I've seen you
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 1: in the past years. Is that just economically the only
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 1: way you could do it? Would you rather play with
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: the band or you like doing it solo?
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 2: Playing with a band is expensive and if I break even,
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 2: I'm doing well. So that doesn't happen all the time. Well,
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 2: we're going out in October November this year with the
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 2: band in the States. Solo, I can earn a living,
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 2: and so probably two thirds of what I do is solo.
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: And then you were coming up in a very vibrant
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 1: scene in terms of music today. Is there anything happening
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 1: for either all players or young players that you find
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 1: interesting and stimulating.
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 2: There's always good players. I'm not sure that that always
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 2: get recognized. I'm not sure the industry is geared to
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 2: innovation or originality. I think you know, people tend to
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 2: get signed if they sound like everything else. That that's
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 2: the sad truth of it. Madison Cunningham I like a lot.
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 2: I think she's a really good guitar player. She's got
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 2: a great band, nice arrangement ideas, not nice quirky songs.
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 2: That's someone I like. You know, there's wonderful kind of
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 2: singer songwriters around and they're always happening, but you know
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 2: what actually sells records? Sometimes that to me is of
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 2: no interest whatsoever.
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 1: And these new artists that you do find that you
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: do like, but you actively searching for them, or do
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 1: people say, hey, you got to hear this? Oh?
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 2: I think a combination of both. Yeah. I think I
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 2: often recommendations because there's so much out there that you
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 2: kind always find the stuff you know you would like,
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 2: So recommendations are very important.
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 1: Okay, so let's go back. You're the observer. You're one
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: step removed. Do you think that makes you different or
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 1: are we all one step removed whether we recognize it
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: or not.
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 2: Is it a good thing to be able once? I
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 2: don't know if it's a good thing. I think as
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 2: an artist you can't help it. You have to be
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 2: that little bit away. Sometimes you can't help it. That
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean you can't be a social human being. You
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 2: can't feel an integral part of the human right. But
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 2: I think sometimes you do feel like a bit of
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 2: an alien somehow.
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 1: So you're in the city, you may not even be
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 1: talking to anybody, you're walking down the street. Do you
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 1: feel different from everybody else? Or you feel like you're
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 1: just like everybody else.
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I feel that like a you know,
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 2: like like a I feel like an individual. I think
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 2: most people do feel like individuals. But I think I
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 2: interact well with other people. When I'm walking down the street.
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I'm just in my own space that I'm in
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 2: my own world, which is usually musical walking on the streets,
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 2: sometimes I just you know, I hear melodies and you know,
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 2: lyrics and stuff invading me.
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: It's it's so, if I put you down with a
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 1: group of musicians, are you going to find commonality or
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: are you going to feel separate in that environment?
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 2: If you spend long enough, that's it. I think you're
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 2: always going to find commonality, but it could take a while.
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 2: It could take a while.
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 1: And what about if I take you for a meeting
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 1: with business people, are you always going to feel these
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 1: are not my people?
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 2: Probably? Yeah, yeah, But people in suits kind of worry me.
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 2: I must say I've always had that attitude. I wear
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 2: a suit as little as possible.
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 1: And you know, in the sixties they said music could
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 1: save the world. What's your viewpoint on music in general today?
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 2: Well, it did save the world. It happened already to
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 2: save the world. Music today, Well, I'd like to think
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 2: it can save the world. I'd like to think that
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 2: my music could change something. Who knows. But I'm not
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 2: going to write an overt political song at this point.
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 2: But but you know, music changes people. Listening to music
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 2: changes people. It changes people's hearts. It softens people's hearts,
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 2: it hardens people's hearts, it opens people's hearts. Music is
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 2: a wonderful thing. It aspires to the spiritual, so it
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 2: can do all kinds of wonderful things to people.
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 1: How did it save the world once?
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 2: How did you change the world?
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 1: How did you said that music did save the world? Well,
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 1: I can experiment.
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 2: I think in the sixties it did. Did it did
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 2: for me anyway? Yeah, it was a whole revolution in
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 2: the sixties, really a social revolution. I means it was
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 2: a huge component of that. But you know, it didn't
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 2: necessarily last, and it was necessarily lays sincere, but it
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 2: did change the world.
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 1: Okay, most people who this deep into the podcast are
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: very familiar with you and your music. But for those
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 1: who are not, something most artists don't like to do
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 1: is sell themselves. But if you were going to explain
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 1: yourself and your music to someone completely unfamiliar, what would
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 1: you say?
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 2: Ooh yeah, tough question. What would I say? Well, I'd
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 2: probably be self deprecating and mumble and basically say nothing
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 2: about myself. But if I had to, I'd say I
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 2: was a singer, songwriter, guitarist somewhere between Celtic and rock,
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 2: and I've been doing it for the last fifty five years.
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's a raw description. And then I might ask
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 1: the question what makes you different? Are you special from
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 1: other people in that category?
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 2: I honestly don't know. I don't know what makes me different.
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 2: I think everybody has a different accumulation of music that
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 2: they've listened to in their lives, and in that sense,
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 2: everyone is different. Everyone expresses different things when when they
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 2: express music. You know, someone who only listen to you know,
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 2: A C. D. C. And Beethoven and Charlie Parker is
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 2: going to express things very differently from someone who's only
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 2: listened to you know, the birds and Stravinsky and uh
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 2: and Louis Armstrong. You know you hear, you hear music
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 2: or your whole life, and some you you take to
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 2: heart and some you reject. But everyone has it has
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 2: a different formula of acceptance and rejection. So we're all different.
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 2: We're very different.
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 1: Okay, Richard, I want to thank you for taking this
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 1: time with this audience. I would like to go deeper
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 1: into your earlier points about the dinner table and who
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 1: would you want to have dinner table. That will be
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 1: another time, but thanks a lot for taking the time.
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 2: Thank you well, thank you so much for your time.
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 1: I do appreciate until next time. This is Bob left
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 1: sets