Latest / Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD / 305: Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill – Toxic Mold Revisited: Mold & the Highly Sensitive Patient with Dr. Neil Nathan

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305: Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill – Toxic Mold Revisited: Mold & the Highly Sensitive Patient with Dr. Neil Nathan · Resiliency Radio with Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD

• 0:00
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Welcome to Resiliency Radio, your go to podcast for the most cutting edge insights integrative and functional medicine.
• 0:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I'm your host, Dr. Jill and with each episode we dive into the heart of healing and personal transformation.
• 0:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Join me as we interview thought leaders, renowned medical experts and world leaders in the age of optimal performance and longevity.
• 0:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Everything that you need to take your health to the next level today is no different.
• 0:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: We have a repeat guest, Dr. Neil Nathan.
• 0:32
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I'll introduce him in just a moment, but before I do, I want to just remind you that if you're looking for a functional medicine practice or physician, our clinic, Flat Iron Functional Medicine, is accepting new patients.
• 0:44
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I have two amazing providers, Fawn, who is a physician associate, and Hannah, who is a nurse practitioner.
• 0:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Both dual care and coordination, medications and assessment.
• 0:57
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: They're brilliant.
• 0:58
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: They're incredibly good, kind and compassionate.
• 1:00
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And we are here to schedule if you are interested in an appointment.
• 1:05
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Second, I want to remind you that you may have heard the podcast on plasma exchange.
• 1:10
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It is now being offered in my clinic.
• 1:13
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It could not be more excited.
• 1:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's through MD Lifespan.
• 1:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: They're just down the hall and we are changing people's lives each week as we have this offering of plasma exchange for the most toxic patient.
• 1:25
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: The results are astounding.
• 1:26
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: If you haven't seen my podcast episode with Dr. Paul Savage, take a look.
• 1:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: You'll find it so fascinating.
• 1:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: We just released a live chat Q and a with Dr. Paul Savage answering all the questions you may have.
• 1:38
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: If you want to know more, go to MD Lifespan Dr. Jill and you can schedule a free consult right on that page.
• 1:46
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So if you want to talk to a doctor about your case and get more information, you can just schedule a consult just to see if it's right for you.
• 1:53
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Lastly, I want to remind you that we have lots of products and services special curated for whatever you're facing@doctor Jill health.com We also have the Dr. Dill Beauty line which has some amazing products.
• 2:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: HA Collagen Booster and the Biopeptide Beauty cream and the Vita C E Serum and the Needle Free Serum.
• 2:12
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: There is tons of products.
• 2:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I use them myself on my own skin and they're non toxic and quite effective.
• 2:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Okay, let's go ahead and introduce our guest.
• 2:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Dr. Neil Nathan has been practicing medicine for over 50 years and considered a pioneer in functional medicine.
• 2:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: His particular area of expertise is mold toxicity, Lyme disease and other conditions that contribute to chronic inflammation.
• 2:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: He has multiple books out that we'll talk about during this episode, but let's get to the show and welcome Dr. Neal Nathan.
• 2:40
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Dr. Neal Nathan, it's so wonderful to get back on the show with you.
• 2:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Our listeners have enjoyed our last episode so much.
• 2:48
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It was one of our most popular ones.
• 2:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I always, we actually share some mutual patients at times and have had, you know, episodes where we've had been on the same zoom call with them.
• 2:57
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I have the deepest respect for your work because it's very few clinicians that understand this kind of subset of patients that you and I both attract.
• 3:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And they're the ones in the world that have tried everything, done everything.
• 3:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: They're extra sensitive.
• 3:11
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Today we're going to talk a little bit about your new and expanded version of toxic heal your body.
• 3:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's been a bestseller in that category for as long as it's been out.
• 3:19
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But before we dive into the book and some of your work, I want to do a little background and story about who is Dr. Nathan and a little about your journey into medicine.
• 3:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I know we've talked about before.
• 3:28
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But for those who didn't hear the last episode, tell us a little bit about how you got into the place that you're at now.
• 3:36
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Okay.
• 3:39
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I really wanted to be a healer when I grew up.
• 3:43
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Not I, I thought that's what doctors were.
• 3:47
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So when I went to medical school, I was really disappointed that they weren't going to teach me to be a healer.
• 3:56
  Dr. Neil Nathan: They were going to teach medical science, which is great, excellent, useful.
• 4:03
  Dr. Neil Nathan: But to me, healing encompassed a whole lot more than that.
• 4:06
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So.
• 4:07
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And I know you've been on a similar journey that I've studied every form of healing that I crossed my path with the hope that I could add tools to my toolbox to help people who are suffering get better so that I, I didn't just have what medicine taught me, but also things that involved spiritual healing, energetic healing, emotional healing, even body healing in different ways that weren't really tossed in medical school.
• 4:42
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So that was my journey.
• 4:43
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And I have been passionately doing this for 55, 60 years now and still love it.
• 4:57
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So that's what I bring to the table.
• 5:00
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: You bring such a wealth of knowledge and experience.
• 5:02
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And like I said, the times we've shared patients, the times I've heard you lecture, I always, as a clinician, learn something new.
• 5:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And one of the things we started off talking about that I think is a great place for us to start is we bring an energy to our patients when we walk in the room, you know, before we walk in the room, when they walk into our Clinic.
• 5:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I have learned more and more in my 20 plus years of practice that the start of healing is creating the safety for them.
• 5:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Right.
• 5:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And there's no healing that will take place unless that patient feels safe in our presence.
• 5:32
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I'm sure people can feel your calm and centeredness even today on the interview.
• 5:38
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: What have you over the years learned about that?
• 5:41
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: How have you come to be such a grounded presence in the lives of your patients?
• 5:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And even in your book, it comes through like it's evident in everything you touch.
• 5:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: This groundedness, this centeredness, this.
• 5:52
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And it really, like I said, we've shared patients where I've seen on the call that patients start to transform because of how you speak to him or her.
• 6:02
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I started when I was an intern at San Francisco General Hospital.
• 6:08
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I, I actually started out being, to be a trauma surgeon.
• 6:12
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Wow.
• 6:14
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Because I thought I did bring a calm state to those super intense.
• 6:23
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Someone is bleeding from every pore and you come into the emergency room and you've got to put in cut downs and tubes and this and get them to the operating room super quickly.
• 6:34
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And I, I saw different models there.
• 6:36
  Dr. Neil Nathan: There was a surgeon there named David Oliver who when no matter how bad it was, he sat at the head of the table and he had a team of us working on the body and he would say, neil, do a cut down today.
• 6:49
  Dr. Neil Nathan: You put in a trach tube.
• 6:51
  Dr. Neil Nathan: You put in a Foley catheter and he would have a pipe out.
• 6:55
  Dr. Neil Nathan: He wouldn't necessarily light it, but he just very calmly orchestrated it.
• 7:00
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I watched other colleagues freak out while they did it.
• 7:04
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Oh, you've got to do this or you got, okay, that's not fast enough for that.
• 7:10
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And I watched those go downhill in a hurry.
• 7:12
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah.
• 7:12
  Dr. Neil Nathan: They just collapsed.
• 7:14
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And when David Oliver did it was smooth.
• 7:19
  Dr. Neil Nathan: There weren't any bumps.
• 7:21
  Dr. Neil Nathan: When you were asking to put an IV in, you weren't going, I got to do it faster.
• 7:27
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's like, just do what I know how to do.
• 7:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah.
• 7:30
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And that demeanor was, that's how I want to practice medicine, that I want to bring a state of calm to every clinical experience later on.
• 7:48
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Another piece to this is one of my first tools that I learned in medical school was hypnosis.
• 7:55
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah.
• 7:56
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And unfortunately, the person who taught it to us left medical school after my first year and I was left with a tool that I didn't know how to use.
• 8:07
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Later on, I picked it up and what I learned was you have to be incredibly precise about language because people will take literally what you're asking them to do in a relaxed state.
• 8:23
  Dr. Neil Nathan: One example is I became enamored of hypnosis and was doing it every chance I got.
• 8:30
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And I was working the ER one night, and there was no one else in the area, no other patients.
• 8:35
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And a fellow came in with back pain, and I had plenty of time on my hands, so I hypnotized him.
• 8:43
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And at one point, I said, when you wake up from this state of sleep, your pain will be gone.
• 8:49
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I thought he was asleep in my trance state.
• 8:54
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Yeah.
• 8:55
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And so he opened his eyes, and nothing happened.
• 8:59
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Now, I was working in a very small community, and after my shift was over in the morning, I went to eat breakfast at a local restaurant, and there he was.
• 9:07
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And I said, oh, I apologize so much for putting you through that.
• 9:12
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And he said, whoa.
• 9:15
  Dr. Neil Nathan: When I woke up this morning from my state of sleep, pain is gone.
• 9:21
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Wow.
• 9:22
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And I realized, whoa.
• 9:25
  Dr. Neil Nathan: You have to be really careful about the information we are suggesting and implanting into people's minds, because it is really precise.
• 9:36
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yes.
• 9:37
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Since I've had many examples of how precise language can either get us into trouble or promote healing.
• 9:47
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So when I was working in the oncology field, I used to get really angry with my colleagues for telling patients phrases like, there's nothing more we can do.
• 9:57
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Right.
• 9:58
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Or, you have six months to live.
• 10:02
  Dr. Neil Nathan: They didn't realize that they were literally implanting in that patient either a sense of hopelessness or, okay, I'm watching.
• 10:12
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Six months from now, you're going down the tubes.
• 10:16
  Dr. Neil Nathan: People take that in and they actually create that, because that is the suggestion given them by a supposed healing figure.
• 10:25
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So it became super important to me to monitor my language as I gave suggestions or asked people to do things or explored things with them.
• 10:37
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I realized that my language added a tremendous dimension to the healing process that's so powerful.
• 10:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And like I said, I've seen it in action.
• 10:48
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's so amazing.
• 10:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And seeing the transformation as people start to shift with your energy.
• 10:54
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Now, you mentioned right before I called just the way that you go in.
• 10:58
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So it sounds like from very early on, you had a sense of calm and centeredness that kind of was part of your nature.
• 11:04
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It seems to me like you've honed that and been even more deliberate about it, because we know that calm and that safety is such a container for healing for our patients.
• 11:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Let's just take a little tiny trail off the side.
• 11:17
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And do you have any tips or tricks for those listening, whether they are practitioner or patient, on how to embody their own Centeredness.
• 11:25
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: In fact, I'll just say were talking right before we came on about how these demands come in, and the emails and the phone calls and the text, and our world, compared to even 10 or 20 years ago, is exponentially increasing in the expectation of quickness and response and urgency.
• 11:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I think it's toxic to our nervous systems.
• 11:42
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So I guess I have two prongs there.
• 11:44
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Talk to us a little bit about that, but also give us some clues or pearls of how we could actually navigate in this system that is demanding more than our nervous systems can potentially handle.
• 11:57
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I think, first of all, what you see now is not how I was when I was 20 years old.
• 12:02
  Dr. Neil Nathan: All right?
• 12:06
  Dr. Neil Nathan: While I was bright enough, I was still being driven, as many of us was, by ego.
• 12:12
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And it was.
• 12:13
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I was very competitive, and it would.
• 12:17
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It would be easy to get me to do something in response where my ego would go, well, I can do that, or something of that nature.
• 12:29
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So over the years, I've learned that wasn't conducive to healing, and it certainly wasn't conducive to helping me feel better.
• 12:36
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Yeah.
• 12:37
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So part of the answer to your question is all of us, whether you're in the healing business or not, don't care what you do in dealing with other human beings, is to learn not to be driven by our egos.
• 12:51
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So that when another being says something, generally not to take it personally, invariably they're talking about themselves and not about me.
• 13:02
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So if I can take a step back from what they're saying, I don't have to react to it.
• 13:07
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I can simply go, oh, I'm sorry you're suffering this way.
• 13:11
  Dr. Neil Nathan: But that's.
• 13:12
  Dr. Neil Nathan: This is not really about me.
• 13:14
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Yeah, I'm not part of whatever drama you're working through.
• 13:18
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And when you can be clearly separated from what's driving them and just be centered inside yourself, then it.
• 13:32
  Dr. Neil Nathan: What people say doesn't have to bother you.
• 13:35
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Yeah, it used to when I was younger, but it's like, you don't know me, and what you're saying is no relevance to me.
• 13:44
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So I don't have to get upset about it because it's not about me.
• 13:48
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So I. I think that would be central to it.
• 13:52
  Dr. Neil Nathan: The other is, I think that all human beings on the planet, we live in an incredibly stressful world.
• 13:58
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Between the way that Covid had a profound effect on our anxiety and panic in the world was no longer a safe place.
• 14:09
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Political upheaval and dissension, the toxicity of the planet, global warning, and then Our own personal lives, we're all overloaded.
• 14:21
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Yes, I would say maybe more so than any population in human history has ever been overloaded.
• 14:27
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So everyone needs to have a way to discharge what you're building up every day.
• 14:34
  Dr. Neil Nathan: That means meditation, Tai chi, yoga, walking.
• 14:40
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Being just being in a natural setting is a great way to do that, but it needs to not have lip service.
• 14:48
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It really has to be a part of our daily lives.
• 14:53
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So that.
• 14:54
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Another way to put it would be every human being on the planet needs limbic retraining daily.
• 15:02
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And if we do that, we don't have to take home what we picked up during the day.
• 15:10
  Dr. Neil Nathan: We can let it go so that we can come home.
• 15:15
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And in that context, my wife particularly has really worked to make our home a sanctuary.
• 15:23
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Yes.
• 15:24
  Dr. Neil Nathan: In that the energy in our home is about us, our two dogs, and about being at peace and healing.
• 15:34
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So we won't invite people into our home who are toxic or difficult.
• 15:39
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I mean, they don't, yeah, we don't want them in our lives.
• 15:43
  Dr. Neil Nathan: They're, they could be perfectly nice people, but they're toxic to us.
• 15:48
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And I don't think a lot of folks allow themselves to surround themselves with people who are loving and kind and they just have other people who eat at their energies and eat at their resources.
• 16:03
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And sometimes the most difficult parts of those people are in family.
• 16:07
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Yes, you may have a family member who is toxic and always creating chaos and strife and you say, oh, blood is thicker than water.
• 16:17
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I can't ignore that.
• 16:18
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I need to be around you at Thanksgiving and Christmas and Easter and 4th of July and I have to put up with it.
• 16:26
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And truth is, you don't.
• 16:29
  Dr. Neil Nathan: You can find other times to connect with the family members you want to connect with, but most people don't protect themselves from the energies that are sapping their resources.
• 16:41
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And I think that it's a simple thing to do, but in actual practice, it's not quite so simple sometimes have to be really honest with yourself.
• 16:50
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Like every time I'm around this person, I'm exhausted within three minutes.
• 16:56
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Something about them, we call them energy vampires just suck our energy right out of us.
• 17:03
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's like, so why be in their presence?
• 17:06
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Yeah, you don't have to.
• 17:08
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Anyway, those are some thoughts about how to exist on this stress filled planet.
• 17:15
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Right.
• 17:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Hey guys, just a very quick commercial break to remind you.
• 17:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: If you haven't yet seen my movie, the documentary Doctor Patient, you can watch that free streaming with ads@doctor patientmovie.com or you can get it on Amazon Prime.
• 17:28
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's just called doctor Patient Movie.
• 17:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: As we're talking about sensitivity here with Neil Nathan today.
• 17:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: This film has been powerful in the lives of so many of my patients and colleagues and just random people who find it on the Internet.
• 17:42
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: If you are a highly sensitive individual or you've struggled with your own health, I just encourage you to take the moment to watch that movie.
• 17:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I think it will really inspire you and encourage you on your journey@doctor patient movie.com.
• 17:55
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: okay, let's get back to our show.
• 17:57
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I really love that you talked about you and your wife creating this space.
• 18:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Because whether you're out there listening, you have a big family or you live alone or, you know, I. I believe that even in a big situation where you have more than one people in the house and it might be lots of chaos going on, I think we can all create a space at the very least, if not the entire home.
• 18:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I've known, for me, because I'm a highly sensitive person, just like our patients, that I always need, whether I'm in a big group or staying at my family's house or wherever.
• 18:26
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I need a place to retreat that's safe and that contains my energy.
• 18:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I think that's actually a really powerful tip that you're giving the listeners wherever you're at.
• 18:35
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And even if I'm on vacation, sometimes I make sure that house or place or room or whatever, I have a place to kind of retreat because I know for me personally, I recharge and get that space of limbic safety when I'm alone in my energetic space.
• 18:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I can kind of like.
• 18:52
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's like plugging into the wall at night, your phone, you're recharging and then you go back into the world.
• 18:56
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I find when I have that space, I am loving and peaceful.
• 19:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And just like you said, people saying things upsetting or patients that are maybe a difficult day.
• 19:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It doesn't bother me if I have that grounding in that sanctuary.
• 19:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So just if you're listening, I would say find your place.
• 19:12
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Find a place in your home or nearby that creates safety.
• 19:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So you wrote an updated and expanded version of one of this.
• 19:19
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I want to show people the actual book here because you gave me a copy.
• 19:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's one of the best sellers in this category, like we said.
• 19:25
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And it's also just a really great.
• 19:26
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: My patients love it.
• 19:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So many people have read it.
• 19:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: What has changed in the last five to 10 years?
• 19:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: We're talking about some of that.
• 19:32
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But that.
• 19:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: That made you decide to Write a new and expanded version.
• 19:39
  Dr. Neil Nathan: first.
• 19:41
  Dr. Neil Nathan: The field that we spend a lot of time in is treating people with mold toxicity and Lyme disease.
• 19:46
  Dr. Neil Nathan: We've learned a lot in the last.
• 19:49
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's eight years since the original was published, so I wanted to update it.
• 19:54
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I wanted to include more current information, more approaches to treating mold, more of the testing we now have available for mold and lime so that people had a more current view of it.
• 20:07
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I also wanted to include more information about things that have become clearly more relevant to those folks in this period of time.
• 20:17
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Specifically, Covid had not occurred when the book was written.
• 20:21
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I wanted to people to understand more about what Covid was and how it affected them and what they can do about it.
• 20:31
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Our knowledge about environmental toxins has increased dramatically.
• 20:36
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I wanted to include more about that in the book.
• 20:46
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Emfs, yes, I was aware of that back then.
• 20:51
  Dr. Neil Nathan: But the increasing exposure to EMFs, the increasing sensitivity of our patients to EMFs is such that I wanted them to realize that for many exposure to EMFs was super problematical and they needed to minimize their exposure in order to get well.
• 21:11
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I think those are the primary major additions, new chapters, additions to chapters that I just thought folks need to be aware of this also because our immune systems are getting increasingly weaker in response to emfs, the toxins and pollutants in our planet.
• 21:37
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And we are all increasingly more and more susceptible to these illnesses.
• 21:43
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And the better we understand that, the better we can treat it and really recover our health.
• 21:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Well, I'm so glad you did because like I said, the first version was amazing and the second version is even better.
• 21:56
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: What I wanted to talk to you about is that we've both been in the mold toxicity world and mold related illness for a very long time.
• 22:04
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And in my practice I see things changing.
• 22:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Mold seems to be more places, more aggressive.
• 22:10
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I would love to know your thoughts on compared to 10 or 20 years ago, what you're seeing in the landscape of mold related illness and mold toxicity.
• 22:19
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I think there's a couple of factors here.
• 22:21
  Dr. Neil Nathan: One of just we've already alluded to Lynn Patrick, who I view as one of the top experts in this country on environmental toxins.
• 22:32
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Lynn recently realized that there are 350,000 new chemicals in our environment than existed 70 years ago.
• 22:45
  Dr. Neil Nathan: The vast majority of them have not been studied in terms of their effect on humans.
• 22:51
  Dr. Neil Nathan: If you think about that, think our liver is the main organ of detoxification.
• 22:56
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Think of what our poor livers have to do every day, even if we're not sick, to deal with the toxins that we are being exposed to in our water and our air and the food that we eat.
• 23:10
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So that's one piece of it.
• 23:13
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Second, some of our colleagues.
• 23:16
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Dietrich Klinghardt, for example, who I know you know, has been saying for a long time that the increase in our EMF exposure has essentially pissed off the mold and made it more aggressive and more threatening to us.
• 23:35
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And many people don't realize that when we changed from 4G to 5G, yeah, there's 10G, but that wasn't a jump of 1G.
• 23:47
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It was a thousandfold increase in the amount of EMF exposure that we had.
• 23:56
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And that changed when the 5G came into effect.
• 24:00
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Many people who were getting by could no longer sit in front of their computers or be on their telephone without getting headaches or brain fog or exhausted or in some cases, neurological issues like dyskinesias and pseudo seizures and things like that.
• 24:20
  Dr. Neil Nathan: These are very real.
• 24:21
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And unfortunately, many of those people are being dismissed by family, friends, and colleagues of, oh, I can sit in front of a computer.
• 24:32
  Dr. Neil Nathan: What's your problem?
• 24:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Right?
• 24:36
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Since you are a sensitive being, and we know that sensitive beings are more vulnerable to things like that, it's not your fault.
• 24:44
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's not anything to do with.
• 24:46
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's just how you're wired.
• 24:47
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And so it's.
• 24:50
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's a common intellectual mistake to think that how I am is like everyone in the world is.
• 25:00
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's like, well, no, we're all biochemically and genetically different, so why would you be the same as me?
• 25:07
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And you could be in the same environment as I?
• 25:11
  Dr. Neil Nathan: You could be safer or less safe.
• 25:14
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So that unfortunately carries down to patients where their family, friends, colleagues, even doctors will say, oh, that's in your head.
• 25:26
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And it's not right.
• 25:28
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's just a true sensitivity that we need to honor and help people to reduce their exposure so they can function on a more normal level.
• 25:43
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah, so well put.
• 25:44
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I remember in my 30s and when I read two books that kind of changed my life.
• 25:48
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: One was Elaine Aaron's the Highly Sensitive Individual.
• 25:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And she did a lot of the initial research, and she does state, just like you said, that 10 to 15 of the population is just born this way.
• 25:58
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And they see the patterns in animals, too.
• 25:59
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's not just humans.
• 26:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And the other book was by Susan Cain.
• 26:03
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It was quiet.
• 26:04
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: The Hidden Power of an Introvert in a World that Can't Stop Talking.
• 26:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And both of those books, I remember almost weeping when I read them because they were talking about me.
• 26:13
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And before that, I had thought that I was A freak.
• 26:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I was different.
• 26:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I was something.
• 26:17
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Like, inside I thought something must be wrong with me because I knew that there was something.
• 26:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I was super.
• 26:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I was super sensitive to the world and to everything in it.
• 26:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But, you know, I talk to patients all the time now, and I know you, and I can like, even.
• 26:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: This is the population you most often speak to.
• 26:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And what I love to do is when I start to understand that someone sitting in front of me is one of those HSPs, and we talk about it.
• 26:41
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Usually I just ask questions to let them talk about themselves.
• 26:44
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But often I will talk about the gift because they've been told just like I was, that it was this weird, freakish thing that was a detriment, that it would.
• 26:54
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: That it was a liability.
• 26:55
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Right.
• 26:56
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And when I started to understand that this was a gift, like, there's no way that I could do what I do in medical practice without had that highly sensitive part, because I can sense into patients and I can ask questions.
• 27:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And so many of even my diagnoses come from an intuition place and not just from the science.
• 27:13
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Do you want to comment on that and.
• 27:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And how you see these highly sensitive individuals and how you reframe?
• 27:18
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Because I know a lot of our listeners are these people, and I kind of want to speak to them in a way that frees them.
• 27:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: That how I was freed when I read those books about myself.
• 27:26
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Yeah.
• 27:27
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Sometimes we call those folks empaths.
• 27:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yes.
• 27:32
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I view that as a gift as well as a liability.
• 27:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Correct.
• 27:38
  Dr. Neil Nathan: What's really important for folks with the gift, to understand how to use the gift, but even more to understand the liability components so they don't get hurt with it.
• 27:54
  Dr. Neil Nathan: To be specific, the liability part is people who are empaths or highly sensitive will literally pick up the feelings of the people around them.
• 28:06
  Dr. Neil Nathan: That means you could be feeling perfectly fine, and you can go into a small gathering and walk in the door, and all of a sudden you're anxious or depressed or mad or angry and go, where did that come from?
• 28:20
  Dr. Neil Nathan: You're literally picking up on the energies of someone else in the room.
• 28:25
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And what I've asked my patients to do for a long time is to ask themselves one question, and that is, whose feelings are these?
• 28:36
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Now, on face value, that looks like a stupid question like, what do you mean, whose feelings are these?
• 28:42
  Dr. Neil Nathan: But the gift also tells you that if you are feeling suddenly anxious, you can.
• 28:49
  Dr. Neil Nathan: You can.
• 28:50
  Dr. Neil Nathan: If you ask that question, whose feelings are these?
• 28:54
  Dr. Neil Nathan: You'll go, oh, you know, that's not how I feel anxious.
• 28:59
  Dr. Neil Nathan: That's a Different kind of anxiousness.
• 29:02
  Dr. Neil Nathan: That's not me.
• 29:03
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah.
• 29:04
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Once you realize that, you can let go of it and not be affected by it.
• 29:08
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Otherwise, you're just a walking receptacle for other people's feelings and very hard to navigate this world this way.
• 29:16
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So it's.
• 29:17
  Dr. Neil Nathan: If you constantly ask the question, whose feelings are these?
• 29:22
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Over time, your body will.
• 29:24
  Dr. Neil Nathan: You can stop asking the question because your body will automatically say, I'm feeling anger and that's not mine.
• 29:33
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So that you can quickly let go of those things and not be as affected.
• 29:38
  Dr. Neil Nathan: The flip side as you're talking about is an ability to connect to people on an immediately deeper level.
• 29:45
  Dr. Neil Nathan: They can feel that you really feel what they're feeling and open up to you and allow you the information you need to do your work as a physician on a higher level.
• 29:58
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah.
• 29:59
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So powerful.
• 30:00
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I love that you're giving people the freedom to really ask those questions.
• 30:04
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Now, on a more practical level, we see limbic activation, mass lactivation often coexisting with highly sensitive individuals.
• 30:12
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And then this creates immune dysfunction.
• 30:13
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: This whole thing.
• 30:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: If you had to map out or say, which came first and how would we do you want to lay down a little framework of like, if someone does have all of these things going on, in addition to being highly sensitive, what are some tips and tricks and things or how you could frame it for them to go down the order of operations?
• 30:33
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So I think that's a super important concept for people to take in.
• 30:41
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So our limbic systems are being formed from the time we're in our mother's uterus and our limbic system.
• 30:52
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Its job is to keep us safe.
• 30:55
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And it keeps us safe by scrutinizing the stimuli we're being exposed to from the perspective of safety.
• 31:02
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And if it doesn't think we're safe, this is not psychological, this is neurological, then it will warn us and slowly make us more and more hyper responsive to all stimuli.
• 31:19
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And it's constantly saying, I don't think that's safe.
• 31:23
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So I'm not sure I'm going to let you do it.
• 31:26
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So this is evolving over time.
• 31:30
  Dr. Neil Nathan: If you then get ill, if you then need surgery or you get sick, or you then have mold toxicity or Lyme disease or any serious illness, at that point, then our limbic system goes into hyperdrive.
• 31:46
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So almost all chronically ill folks have a limbic system that is hyperactive in terms of looking at these things to know if that's happening for you.
• 31:59
  Dr. Neil Nathan: The limbic system basically gives us symptoms in two main categories to Tell us.
• 32:04
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Yup, I don't feel safe.
• 32:07
  Dr. Neil Nathan: One is emotion and the other one is insensitivity.
• 32:11
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So if you or a loved one develops any form of sensitivity to light, sound, chemicals, smell, food, touch, emfs, that's limbic.
• 32:23
  Dr. Neil Nathan: That's a limbic system that needs to be rebooted.
• 32:26
  Dr. Neil Nathan: If you also have or separately have any increase in anxiety, depression, ocd, mood swings, depersonalization, derealization, that's limbic.
• 32:39
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So those symptoms which are super common in our patients are telling us this person needs a limbic reboot if they're going anywhere.
• 32:48
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Because one of the things we've learned, part of it from the work of Dr. Robert Navio on the cell danger response is if a, a cell, and to a greater extent on an organ level, if it feels threatened, it cannot heal until the threat is gone.
• 33:08
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So when we are living in a state of threat, when our limbic system is being affected, you can't take the binders you need to take, you can't take the antifungals, you can't take the antibiotics because your body is saying, that's not safe, I'm going to let you do it.
• 33:27
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So the limbic system, as you refer to, is one piece of that second piece, which is totally interwoven with it, is what's called the vagal nerve system that gives us different symptoms.
• 33:39
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So the vagus nerve supplies virtually the entire GI tract.
• 33:45
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It controls intestinal motility.
• 33:47
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So any symptom you have that's GI related, gas, bloating, constipation, diarrhea, abdominal pain, reflux, that's vagal.
• 33:58
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It affects the autonomic nervous system.
• 34:01
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So temperature, dysregulation, pots, palpitations, all of those things that's vagal.
• 34:08
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So you can literally tease apart a patient's history as they talk to us going, oh, limbic dysfunction, vagal dysfunction.
• 34:17
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And then if we add the third part, mast cell activation to that, we know that these are things we have to get rebooted first or our patient's not going anywhere.
• 34:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah.
• 34:29
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And so I think that's what you're referring to.
• 34:32
  Dr. Neil Nathan: As I don't think that's always appreciated.
• 34:37
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I often will have some people who've heard a little bit about mold toxicity, throwing people on itraconazole and nystatin, not on binders, not preparing them, and they go right down the tubes.
• 34:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yes.
• 34:51
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's like you need, if you're going to do this work or if you're going to be a patient in the field, you need to Understand that there's a hierarchy of what you need to do, in what order if you're going to optimize healing.
• 35:08
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So.
• 35:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Well said.
• 35:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And yes, I really like the delineation of the different types of activation, limbic, vagal, and then mast cell, because there are different components.
• 35:17
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And just like you, we need to kind of start there so that system can start to feel safe.
• 35:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Do you start typically to incorporate a program or a practice while you're starting the toxic treatment, or do you so in sequentially or same time?
• 35:32
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It depends on the patient.
• 35:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah.
• 35:35
  Dr. Neil Nathan: You and I both get some unusually sensitive folks.
• 35:40
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah.
• 35:40
  Dr. Neil Nathan: For them, they probably are not going to even be able to take the mast cell treatment until they spend six to eight weeks first on limbic and vagal rebooting.
• 35:51
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So for me, limbic and vagal first.
• 35:54
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah.
• 35:55
  Dr. Neil Nathan: If they are less sensitive, I'll start mast cell activation concurrently.
• 36:00
  Dr. Neil Nathan: If they're even less sensitive, if there's someone with a very strong constitution, you can.
• 36:06
  Dr. Neil Nathan: They may not even need limbic and vagal work.
• 36:09
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It doesn't have to be.
• 36:11
  Dr. Neil Nathan: They would start then with binders and work their way into antifungal.
• 36:15
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So we need to, you know, individualize how we treat each person.
• 36:21
  Dr. Neil Nathan: You know, I. I've been asked for years to put together a protocol of how to do this, and I have absolutely refused because I know that what people will do with it is go, okay, everyone's going to get treated in exactly the same way.
• 36:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yes.
• 36:39
  Dr. Neil Nathan: That would mean we're going to over treat some people, under treat some people, and we're not giving each person what they need.
• 36:47
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So forgive me, but folks, not going to happen for me.
• 36:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I could not agree more with you on that.
• 36:54
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I have so often, like, there's no protocol.
• 36:56
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: You have to listen to the patient and do it individually.
• 36:59
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And there is never one patient that's treated the exact same way as another in my practice either.
• 37:05
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So I agree totally on that.
• 37:06
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: You mentioned binders, and this is one of the things I've always really loved about you is you are.
• 37:12
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: You understand how binders can be really stirring the pot.
• 37:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And how many patients don't tolerate the convent sense?
• 37:19
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I remember one of our colleagues, who shall remain unnamed, would use a lot of cholestyramine at very high doses.
• 37:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I remember right at the beginning I would be like, this is not good for most of my patients.
• 37:28
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I would say only 20% or so could even tolerate that drug.
• 37:31
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And even then at low doses, I mostly don't use it.
• 37:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But that was the initial 20 years ago, what you do for mold is you give cold styrene.
• 37:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And a lot of patients will still come in and say, well, shouldn't I be on?
• 37:42
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Because they're so worried they're doing the right thing or not right.
• 37:44
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And they'll say, well, doc, you know, shouldn't I be on cholestarmine?
• 37:48
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So talk about binders from your perspective, because you've got a really unique and very powerful perspective on how to use binders.
• 37:54
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So over the years, we've learned which binders work for which mycotoxins, so that we can now measure mycotoxins in people's body fairly accurately.
• 38:08
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Our tests aren't perfect, but they're wonderful compared to what we never had before.
• 38:13
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So I can literally look at a urine specimen and go, you've got this in your body.
• 38:18
  Dr. Neil Nathan: That means you're going to need these binders to pull it out.
• 38:21
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Now, the.
• 38:22
  Dr. Neil Nathan: The art of this, as you're alluding to, is you can't just throw people on binders.
• 38:28
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Binders.
• 38:29
  Dr. Neil Nathan: If you're taking too much binder, and this happens all the time, you will mobilize toxin faster than that person can handle it.
• 38:37
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And you will make them worse.
• 38:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yes.
• 38:39
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And it will not be a little bit worse.
• 38:41
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It'll be nasty worse.
• 38:44
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So I always start with minute binder doses and work up from there.
• 38:50
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And yes, you could accuse me of being ultra cautious and, yes, guilty, but I have not hurt people doing that.
• 38:58
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And when we first started doing this, I did hurt people because I was using binder doses that were way more than he needed to take.
• 39:05
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And here's the nice piece of news.
• 39:07
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Really sensitive people respond surprisingly well to minuscule doses.
• 39:13
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I've had several patients who are only able to take a quarter of a teaspoon of cholestyramine every three days, and they were able to respond beautifully to that.
• 39:25
  Dr. Neil Nathan: On the other hand, the other doses of cholestyramine that are often used by other physicians, not by me, will throw most people under the bus.
• 39:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah.
• 39:36
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And so the art of this is we have to ease our patients into every aspect of treatment so that we're literally flying under the limbic radar.
• 39:47
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So their limbic system looks at what we're doing and goes, that's safe.
• 39:51
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I'll let you do that.
• 39:53
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And then you can build on that.
• 39:54
  Dr. Neil Nathan: But if you start at too higher dose, the limbic system goes, whoa, that's not safe.
• 39:59
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And I'm never letting you do that again.
• 40:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yes, exactly.
• 40:03
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It isn't that you get another try.
• 40:05
  Dr. Neil Nathan: If you overshoot.
• 40:06
  Dr. Neil Nathan: You may not.
• 40:07
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yes.
• 40:08
  Dr. Neil Nathan: That's why starting really low and working up is so important.
• 40:13
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: We touched on mast cell activation, and I know in my practice there is.
• 40:17
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I think I saw the latest paper by AFRIN.
• 40:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: 17 of the general population now has mass selectivation.
• 40:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I think it might be higher than that.
• 40:26
  Dr. Neil Nathan: What.
• 40:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: How do you approach.
• 40:28
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Give us a little primer on mast cell activation.
• 40:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I also want to know your theory or thoughts behind why we're.
• 40:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: We're seeing an increase.
• 40:35
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Well,
• 40:39
  Dr. Neil Nathan: mass selectivation has emerged as a major piece to all of this.
• 40:44
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I remember when I read Larry Efren's book Never Beget against and went, wow, this is big.
• 40:55
  Dr. Neil Nathan: He's on to something here.
• 40:57
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And the more we've studied it, the more we've realized that mast cell activation is extremely complicated.
• 41:06
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So, yes, it's present in 17% of the population, meaning not rare.
• 41:11
  Dr. Neil Nathan: But in our patients, it's more in the 70 to 80% category.
• 41:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Agreed.
• 41:16
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah.
• 41:17
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So this is a major piece of what is holding some of our patients back.
• 41:22
  Dr. Neil Nathan: The symptoms of mast cell activation are the same as what we're treating it.
• 41:27
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's the same as mold, the same as Lyme.
• 41:30
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And the reason for that is all of them are triggered by inflammation.
• 41:36
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So inflammation is triggering all of it.
• 41:38
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And when you systemically inflame a body, every body area is prone to getting a symptom from it.
• 41:46
  Dr. Neil Nathan: The tip off for me, for some people with mast cell activation, is any symptom that comes on immediately after eating.
• 41:56
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's mast cell activation.
• 41:57
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Until proven otherwise, yes.
• 41:59
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Meaning allergy takes longer to come on.
• 42:01
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Mast cell activation is immediate.
• 42:03
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Sometimes while you're eating, you can get virtually anything.
• 42:10
  Dr. Neil Nathan: But the commonest ones would be itching, hives, palpitations, cramping, diarrhea, brain fog, fatigue, sweating.
• 42:22
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Yeah, if those come on pretty immediately.
• 42:24
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Okay, I know you have mast cell activation.
• 42:27
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It is really complicated.
• 42:30
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Mast cells, when they're activated, can produce over a thousand different biochemical mediators which have very different properties.
• 42:39
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So it creates an additional layer of inflammation in already inflamed patients.
• 42:47
  Dr. Neil Nathan: That's why it needs to be treated early on, identified, and looked for.
• 42:51
  Dr. Neil Nathan: But because it's complicated, it isn't like you can take one thing for it and you get.
• 42:56
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Well, you have to take a bunch.
• 42:59
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: of things that will quiet it down.
• 43:02
  Dr. Neil Nathan: That will mean combining things like H1 and H2 receptor blockers.
• 43:08
  Dr. Neil Nathan: The H here refers to histamine being one of the main things that mast cells make.
• 43:13
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So you want to block the H1 receptors for histamine, the H2 receptors, so that if histamine is released, it's bound, blocked, and won't have the same kind of profound effect.
• 43:26
  Dr. Neil Nathan: You want to basically make the mast cells less reactive by taking what are called mast cell stabilizers.
• 43:33
  Dr. Neil Nathan: We can give you DAO diamine oxidase to break down excess histamine.
• 43:40
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And there's a whole bunch of other materials we have access to basically quiet the mast cell system.
• 43:50
  Dr. Neil Nathan: But I want to emphasize the mast cell system is intimately linked, interwoven, intertwined with the limbic and vagal systems.
• 44:00
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So if you only treat mass cells and you're not treating the limbic and vagal system, you may not go very far.
• 44:07
  Dr. Neil Nathan: One of my beefs with conventional medical practice is since Efren's book was published, every major medical center in the country now has a mass cell clinic.
• 44:21
  Dr. Neil Nathan: But it's an isolation.
• 44:24
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Yes, they mostly do not incorporate limbic or vagal work.
• 44:28
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And worse, they treat it like it's an isolated illness with a name.
• 44:33
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And it's not.
• 44:34
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's caused by.
• 44:35
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's triggered by mold, Lyme, emfs, some viruses.
• 44:42
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So you have to look for what's causing it so you can cure it.
• 44:46
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's.
• 44:47
  Dr. Neil Nathan: If you don't look, you're going to take these things for the rest of your earthly life.
• 44:51
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's like having an allergy and taking Claritin forever.
• 44:55
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Yeah, it'll help.
• 44:57
  Dr. Neil Nathan: But if you can cure the allergy, in this case, it's even easier.
• 45:02
  Dr. Neil Nathan: We.
• 45:02
  Dr. Neil Nathan: If we treat what's causing it, then we.
• 45:05
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Then we can really help that person live a normal life.
• 45:10
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Oh, I couldn't agree more.
• 45:11
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Because there's always these root causes that are contributing, and if you're not looking at that, they'll just be on a list of 6, 7, 8, 9 supplements and medications, and maybe controlled and probably not controlled.
• 45:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And that root cause is so critical.
• 45:25
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: A couple other things I want to just touch base on.
• 45:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Biofilms and colonization.
• 45:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: You alluded to the fact that you use antifungals at times.
• 45:32
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I do, too.
• 45:34
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: When do you decide if someone is colonized versus not colonized?
• 45:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Sinuses, gut, whatever after mold exposure?
• 45:42
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Actually, that's a hard question.
• 45:43
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah.
• 45:48
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Most of the people I see have had mold for so long that they have colonized.
• 45:53
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Yes.
• 45:54
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Colonized means that when you were exposed, the mold is now growing in your.
• 45:59
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: GI tract and sinus areas primarily.
• 46:04
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So most have.
• 46:05
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Very rare to me that I don't have that.
• 46:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But for anyone else out there, I always start by Treating with binders.
• 46:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yes.
• 46:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: If the binders are profoundly affected and within two or three months all symptoms are gone.
• 46:20
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Great.
• 46:20
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: We don't need to use antifungals.
• 46:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: You haven't colonized.
• 46:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Those are only in people who have just gotten mold toxicity.
• 46:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I don't usually see those folks.
• 46:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So there are tests that can point towards colonization.
• 46:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Mosaic has an O test with some of the biochemical things that we measure on the O test can tell us.
• 46:47
  Dr. Neil Nathan: that, yes, colonization is likely.
• 46:50
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Now, unfortunately, some doctors are under the impression that test is so good.
• 46:55
  Dr. Neil Nathan: that if it's negative, you haven't colonized.
• 46:58
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And that is far from true.
• 46:59
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: True it.
• 47:00
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Fix it up a little bit.
• 47:02
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So that's the only test I know of that actually will tell us the colonization has occurred.
• 47:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: The usual way we figure it out is if you're not getting better.
• 47:13
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yes.
• 47:13
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Giving you binders and your numbers aren't coming down.
• 47:17
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Then you have mold and Candida in your body making toxins.
• 47:24
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I don't know if you can hear it, but we're having a hail storm out here.
• 47:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Oh, wow.
• 47:28
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: No, we can't came out,
• 47:32
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: but barely grit size hail coming down.
• 47:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Oh my.
• 47:39
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Right in the middle.
• 47:40
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Oh, I love that elucidation of the.
• 47:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Because I agree most of the patients you and I have seen a lot of other practitioners.
• 47:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And by the time they see us, I would say maybe 80% of my population is colonized.
• 47:54
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But in the general population, it's that stepwise approach and I think that's really wise.
• 47:59
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: We'll just end on if there's any new frontiers.
• 48:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Have you done any work with peptides or any sort of other unique devices or things that you found to be super helpful?
• 48:10
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Even things like low dose immunotherapy?
• 48:13
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: What would you say are the.
• 48:14
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: The top two or three kind of coming out?
• 48:17
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Things that are really helpful for patients that maybe weren't there 10 years ago.
• 48:23
  Dr. Neil Nathan: There's a bunch of new things out there.
• 48:28
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: When my patients get them,
• 48:32
  Dr. Neil Nathan: their effectiveness seems to depend on the timing.
• 48:38
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So for example, peptides are hot in medicine these days.
• 48:42
  Dr. Neil Nathan: There are peptides that can help with mast cell activation.
• 48:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: There are peptides that can help with the mitochondria to leave out.
• 48:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: There are peptides that help can help the gut.
• 48:51
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I usually don't see them working in most people until they're farther along in their journey.
• 48:58
  Dr. Neil Nathan: More of the mold is out of their body.
• 49:00
  Dr. Neil Nathan: When their systems are getting back online, then I find peptides to be helpful.
• 49:06
  Dr. Neil Nathan: The same in my experience with plasmapheresis or the New kid on the block.
• 49:13
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I use phoresis.
• 49:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yes.
• 49:17
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Again, it can be very helpful if they're farther along in their journey.
• 49:23
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So I, I think that some of our colleagues get really excited about, oh, we've got this great new tool.
• 49:29
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I'm going to use it on everybody.
• 49:30
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And my experience is that the art form of what we do requires that we intuit.
• 49:41
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Here's where your sensitivity comes into play, where we intuit that.
• 49:47
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Now you're ready to do this.
• 49:48
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Yeah, I have no scientific way of doing it, but I trust my intuition that.
• 49:54
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And if I'm wrong, I'm going to waste their money.
• 49:57
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Right.
• 49:57
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Hopefully not hurt them by doing something to them that they're not ready for.
• 50:03
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So we always have to be alert to the fact that we can make people worse if we don't time our intervention correctly.
• 50:13
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And that's tricky.
• 50:14
  Dr. Neil Nathan: We don't have to do that with medical, precise, scientific means at this point.
• 50:21
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Wow.
• 50:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And I couldn't agree more.
• 50:23
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And that's where you and I so align with really listening to that patient.
• 50:26
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And we take all the academic, scientific, left brain background.
• 50:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: We have that.
• 50:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But I found as I've aged in medicine and been practicing longer, I really trust that intuitive sense.
• 50:35
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I always back it up with the science.
• 50:37
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But that intuition is so powerful and it never leads me wrong.
• 50:41
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So really love that.
• 50:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So, so good.
• 50:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Dr. Nathan, as always, it is such a joy to talk to you.
• 50:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Would you leave people with just maybe one or two personal practice that have meant the most for you, just for optimal performance and longevity and feeling well every day?
• 51:01
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: You talked about the sanctuary of a home.
• 51:03
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Is there anything else that you feel like is really just basic and foundational to your health?
• 51:10
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I would say love and spiritual health are the two singular, most important aspects to health.
• 51:20
  Dr. Neil Nathan: That on the spiritual side, it's learning what gives your life meaning and purpose and maximizing the time you spend doing that.
• 51:34
  Dr. Neil Nathan: On the love aspect, I would say that what keeps me going is the unconditional love from my wife and my two dogs.
• 51:45
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And I have a great kids and grandchildren as well.
• 51:48
  Dr. Neil Nathan: But on a daily basis, that's what I bask in.
• 51:54
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And then there's the details of eating organic and living in a natural world, which I do.
• 52:02
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I'm talking to you now.
• 52:03
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Out in front of me is a large, undeveloped city park.
• 52:09
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And right there is the Pacific Ocean.
• 52:12
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Oh, I can walk there in five minutes with my dogs so I can soak up the natural world, live literally an unconditional love.
• 52:22
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And to be Honest, I think that overrides all the other details that we have.
• 52:30
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I love ending there because I could not agree more.
• 52:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's so powerful that unconditional love that we have, starting with ourselves and then extending to those closest around us, is more powerful than any supplement or nutritional intervention or lifestyle.
• 52:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So what a great way to end.
• 52:48
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Dr. Nathan, as always, it is a joy to have you here.
• 52:51
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's a bless that you're in the world doing the work.
• 52:54
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I want to be sure and remind people, if you don't have this book, where can people find this?
• 52:58
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Where's the best place to purchase?
• 52:59
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Do you have any preferences on Amazon?
• 53:02
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Has it both in audio and in printed form?
• 53:10
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Sometimes.
• 53:10
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I've been told by some patients, you know, that I can't read it because I'm so chemically sensitive that I can't open up the pages.
• 53:17
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I. I do know that, and I've talked to my publisher at length about it.
• 53:21
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It turns out there are no.
• 53:23
  Dr. Neil Nathan: No completely safe inks anywhere.
• 53:26
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Wow.
• 53:27
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Want to read the book?
• 53:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah.
• 53:30
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Put it somewhere where it can outgas.
• 53:32
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Yeah.
• 53:33
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Read it later.
• 53:34
  Dr. Neil Nathan: But in the meantime, you can certainly get it on audio.
• 53:37
  Dr. Neil Nathan: So I don't want anyone to get sick by reading the book.
• 53:41
  Dr. Neil Nathan: That's counterproductive.
• 53:43
  Dr. Neil Nathan: I'd also mention that as part of our discussion today, another book that I've written, which is called the sensitive patients healing Guide, is out there.
• 53:53
  Dr. Neil Nathan: It's specifically about people who become unusually sensitive, explaining why and explaining all of the things you may need to work on to.
• 54:02
  Dr. Neil Nathan: To heal that.
• 54:04
  Dr. Neil Nathan: And although I don't usually comment on it, if we want to talk about intuition and its value, I have another book that I wrote which is called Energetic Diagnosis, which talks about the gifts that some people have and their liabilities and how to work with them if you want to maximize gifts that you have and minimize their downside.
• 54:27
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So it's perfect for our discussion.
• 54:29
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I'm so glad you mentioned, because that might be one of my favorites that you've done.
• 54:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Dr. Nathan, so much love and gratitude to you for your way in the world and the way that you transform so many lives.
• 54:38
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And thank you for taking your time today to come on the podcast.
• 54:42
  Dr. Neil Nathan: Always a pleasure hanging out with you, Joe.
• 54:44
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Well, guys, Neil Nathan does it again.
• 54:47
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Another amazing episode.
• 54:49
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: I know that many of you hopefully really appreciated that great insight and his wisdom over the years.
• 54:55
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: He's just one of my favorite colleagues and such a beautiful soul, as you could tell.
• 55:00
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: If you haven't yet got his book, Toxic heal your body, the new expanded edition is available Amazon or wherever books are sold.
• 55:07
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Check it out.
• 55:07
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's one of my favorites.
• 55:08
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Patients love it.
• 55:09
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It's just easy to read, easy to access.
• 55:11
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It has diagrams that you can go to certain chapters and just very well done.
• 55:15
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: So check that out.
• 55:17
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And guys, we're now reaching over 800,000 subscribers on YouTube.
• 55:22
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: But if you haven't yet hit that subscribe button, please take a moment and do that.
• 55:26
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Hit the bell so you're notified of future episodes.
• 55:28
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• 55:33
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: It helps us reach more people and get more great guests to educate you on your journey to optimal performance and longevity.
• 55:42
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: Also, just from a reminder, our clinic is accepting new patients.
• 55:45
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: If you have any interest in being a patient at our clinic, give us a call 303-993-7910.
• 55:53
  Dr. Jill Carnahan, MD: And until next week, we'll see you again for another episode of Resiliency Radio.